Empowering Lay Leadership: Navigating Challenges and the Future of Ministry with Reverend Erik Gauss

Reverend Erik Gauss from Cross Lutheran Church and School in Illinois, takes us through his 17-year ministry journey, shedding light on his dedication to developing lay leadership. Erik recounts his personal experiences and the various initiatives like huddles, men's groups, and leadership groups that he has spearheaded. We also navigate the unsettling trend of some pastors discouraging lay participation in the Great Commission, probing into its roots and possible ramifications. 

Have you ever wondered about the burdens pastors carry? In our insightful conversation, we tackle the complex issue of pastoral accountability and the fear it generates. Many pastors feel immense pressure, believing they'll be held accountable in heaven if things go awry in their churches. This chapter delves into finding a balance between pastoral responsibility and church member empowerment. We discuss the historical context and cultural shifts that have influenced this dynamic, and share personal insights into overcoming frustrations with church leadership.

As we navigate societal challenges, the church's role in healing cultural ills becomes ever more critical. We discuss the necessity of contextualizing the gospel for modern audiences, and share a transformative story of faith impacting a secular business. The concept of "huddles" as leadership development tools is explored, highlighting the importance of creating safe spaces for spiritual growth. Finally, we touch on the acute shortage of ordained pastors in the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (LCMS) and brainstorm potential solutions. Wrapping up, we envision the future of the LCMS, emphasizing the need to refine current challenges while maintaining the purity of the gospel.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:02

This is Lead Time.

Speaker 2: 0:04

Welcome to Lead Time, tim Allman, here with Jack Kalberg. It's a wonderful day to lean into a leadership development conversation with a pastor in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod that we got connected to at the Best Practices Conference. Now I love when I don't ask the question on pronunciation of the last name before we get going so that we can embrace the awkward ministry is embracing the awkward moments which happened. So this is and I'm going to say it with a lot, of, a lot of confidence, but I could be very, very wrong. So this is the one and only Reverend Eric Gauss Did.

Speaker 3: 0:39

I get it right. Because you have German ancestry, I'll let it slide. Yes, is it right? Well, my family has always pronounced it Goss.

Speaker 2: 0:49

But it is in fact Goss so at the seminary I was always Goss, yeah, goss. I love it. So let me tell you a little bit about the Goss. The Goss is in the house. Eric is serving at Yorkville, illinois Cross Lutheran Church and School 17 years there. It's a second call graduate of Concordia Seminary in St Louis in 2003. He has a student who's exploring Luther House of Study We'll get to that Chad and he recently started a podcast with Reverend Dr Chris James. They live very, very close or so, and they started a podcast called Whiskey Shepherds. Yes, you heard that right, whiskey. And the Word has been created. And, eric, we're pumped to learn with you today. How are you doing, brother? I'm doing fantastic.

Speaker 3: 1:38

Kids coming home from college. You got to be adaptive, brother.

Speaker 2: 1:42

All right. Well, thank you for making time carving it out for us. Tell us your story of lay leadership development.

Speaker 3: 1:51

Well, I felt my story was pretty normal, pretty common. And then we started chatting and you asked me to come on and tell that story. So here we are. So you know, here we are. But my entire ministry, you know, 20 years in the pastoral office ordained, has been pouring into lay people. I've always believed that for the church to succeed in the world like when I say church I mean the kingdom church then everybody has to be engaged in ministry. I was always taught that. I was taught that at seminary through vocation, you know, priesthood of all believers, and I believed it. And you know, I got out and we started doing that and then you know, kind of find out that not everybody seems to either have that view or have that success. So but that's just what I've done. Different types of huddles or men's groups or leadership groups, small groups, larger groups, tried a lot of things. Some works, some doesn't, and you just kind of keep pressing on.

Speaker 2: 2:53

That's funny. You say that. I guess some people didn't get that.

Speaker 2: 2:58

I guess I kind of we're similar, Eric, because it seems so natural to me. Yeah, and I did get it out of the seminary and a number of the profs that I've had on here and or used to be at the seminary. There was this shout out to Dr Reverend, Dr Bill Utech, Like Utech would talk all the time about leadership development and lay and priesthood and the whole nine yards. So it was kind of in the DNA for us. But how, I mean, how did that shift? Just give me your perspective. You've been, and Jack go ahead.

Speaker 4: 3:33

I want to add to your question, Tim, because what I've been seeing and hearing is that there are some LCMS pastors that are teaching their congregations they're not responsible for the great commission, that this is entirely the role of the pastor and really nobody else, and I find that very distressing. Like, where does this come from? This does like this. I'm trying to like scratch my head and saying is it the seminary wouldn't be putting this out, would it? That's a that's a very difficult thing for me to kind of grasp right now.

Speaker 2: 4:06

What do you think, Eric?

Speaker 3: 4:07

I don't know where the seminary stands on those things now.

Speaker 3: 4:10

It's been a couple of decades since I've been there.

Speaker 3: 4:13

But I will say I was privileged to participate in the Koinonia Project in our Northern Illinois District, which is a fancy way to say. We got a bunch of pastors together from different mindsets, different practices, if you will, all the same theology, and got us in a room to talk about where this comes from and these types of things. And what came out of that, at least from my perspective, was that many of our brother pastors feel the burden that if it doesn't go right in their churches, they're actually going to be held accountable for that in heaven. So they take this posture of gatekeeper of the gospel or gatekeeper of the sacraments and in order for it to be done right, either I have to do it or somebody who's trained and certified, just like me, has to do it, and I don't know where that comes from. You know there is some scripture to sort of say there's an accountability for those who are in spiritual leadership and that's 100% understandable, but I don't know where that comes from. You know, within our church body, if you will.

Speaker 4: 5:21

I mean you could apply that same accountability to ensuring your congregation is evangelical right With respect to equipping people to share the gospel. If there's accountability for sacrament, why not accountability for equipping people to share the gospel at the same time?

Speaker 3: 5:41

I would 100% agree, and that's what I believe the scripture tells us is. Our primary calling is to equip the saints for the work of the church that's why he has pastors and teachers and spiritual leaders is not to do the work, but to equip the saints for the work. That's scriptural Also, I wasn't trying to be an expert on this.

Speaker 4: 6:00

You're saying where does this come in from? Yeah, this is the conversations I've had. Yeah, that's where I. Where is this coming from? Yeah, this is the conversations I've had. Yeah, that's where I hear it coming from yeah.

Speaker 3: 6:08

I actually had a conversation recently with a gentleman who you know was younger in the ministry and we were talking about some of these things and what I challenged him on was this I said I think that as a church body or as pastors, we maybe need to repent a little bit of that posture because in my perspective that's taking the role of the Holy Spirit away from the Holy Spirit and putting it on us. We believe the word of God is living and active, sharper than any double edged sword. We believe that word transforms people's hearts and minds and so, when properly proclaimed, when properly you know read and you know you do that in Christian context and community with a shepherd that it should create people who are capable of proclaiming that gospel. And we need to get out of the way a little bit, I think. Well, I agree.

Speaker 4: 7:01

It strikes me as kind of a reversion to the Romanist kind of view of what the pastor is.

Speaker 2: 7:08

Maybe I don't know, jack, I've been wrestling with this a lot. Yeah, it could be a power play or it could be a fear-based, because when you say Roman, then that's more the power right, the office or pastor. It could be, and I'm thinking more culturally, systemically here than I am thinking individually. So it could be that culture has changed so rapidly and pastoral ministry therefore has shifted so so rapidly Think of the cultural shift of doing ministry 20 years ago than it is today. The struggles are all the more evident in a secular, post-christian, neo-pagan culture that then the inverse effect of the slide away and it feels like you're just losing control. What do we do when we lose control? Then we grab after control.

Speaker 4: 8:03

And what is it that I can do alone and fear drives that. Word and sacrifice. Fear drives that, oh for sure, fear drives it. Fear drives the power grabbing mentality, which I mean you could say was when Reformation was happening. Fear was a big issue Like, hey, if we just let this stuff go, if we just release this stuff, we're going to go to hell in a handbasket, right? So we got to keep things consolidated. We have to control it, right.

Speaker 2: 8:26

Well, my identity then, as a proclaimer of the word. Let it not be misunderstood In the church there are proclaimers and there are hearers. I've heard this from a number of different. Yes, the word must be proclaimed, but it must be released. It's the Holy Spirit that does the work that you were saying, eric. It's not a control, fear thing, it's a release to the work of God's word that does all of it.

Speaker 2: 8:51

And I love last point here but the apostle Paul I've been reflecting on Ephesians a lot and take up the sword of the spirit. This is an offensive weapon, which is the word of God. Take it up, and Paul is giving this to the church. This is like a duh, you know. He's releasing it to all of the saints there in Ephesus. This is not one of his pastoral epistles, this is for the work of ministry, and so I think it is. Culturally, we're living in a fear-based culture. The church is on the fringes, we've been marginalized, and so leaders say my identity is doing the work, and at least then I can feel this is a heavy thing, law-based too. Then I can feel justified, self-righteous in doing the work. This is far from the heart of Luther and the Reformation, to be sure. Any final comments though on that Eric.

Speaker 3: 9:50

Well, I would agree very much with that. I started to, I used to be very angry at our church body and its leadership. I'd get very frustrated. Honestly, tim and Jack, you guys have helped with that with this Lead Time podcast. I became familiar with you through our most recent convention. You guys did some interviews on both sides. So it's helped me to, instead of just be angry or frustrated, to see you guys trying to do something positive and help our reactive synod be more proactive. So I appreciate that. But what that's helped me to do also is because you guys are doing that work.

Speaker 3: 10:20

I don't have to stew in my anger. I can one put it into action but then two reflect a little and I've gone. Stew in my anger. I can one put it into action, but then two reflect a little and I've gone down that whole path. I think it's fear. I truly do. I think it's ignorance. In 1991, 90% of our country said they were Christian. Now we're fewer than 40% and our leadership grew up, served and we're in the pulpit. In those times when, you know, evangelism was getting a Catholic to really believe, they were Lutheran, you know, and that's just so different than today. And so it does. The reaction is control, because it's what I can do about it and we need. The opposite of fear is love, and we need to find that love for the unbeliever. We need to find that love for the Holy Spirit again and let the spirit if we do our job well and proclaim the word rightly, it. It does transform people and we just don't like that, which is interesting.

Speaker 2: 11:19

And to find that love for our brother who conceptualizes what it means to be church in a different way, especially within our tribe. Yeah, that they'll know. We're Christians by the way, that we love one another, and love equals listening deeply to one another's fears and then speaking the gospel into those fears, because I've got fears. We're not here sages on a stage saying, oh my goodness, we figured everything out. The reason we do the podcast is because we're dumb, because we've got a lot of stuff. We're ignorant, jack.

Speaker 2: 11:52

There are areas there are blind sides for all of us that we have to learn and we need all of the gifts and all of the voices within the body of Christ to keep us in that place of humility and care. And the church just needs to speak openly about where we're afraid. Today, and I guess one of the biggest struggles is I don't see us speaking honestly about where we're afraid. I see the church taking more a posture of we're in the majority and we're self-righteous. No, no, no. Let outsiders, let us be thought well of by outsiders because of the way that we care for our community. So, yeah, anything more there. I'm going to go down the path of leadership development. Here we're going to take a little bit of a pivot, but you want to land the plane there at all, eric, on that topic?

Speaker 3: 12:41

Well, I think that the reality of the when the scriptures say when the land is sick, right.

Speaker 3: 12:48

So when the government's sick, when the culture is sick, the scriptures actually call us, the church, to repentance, the believers, because we truly are the only people in the world who can heal the land, can heal the land and not because of us, but because of God at work through us. And so what I think we need to do is simply look at ourselves and say, okay, we have an unchanging gospel and an unchanging God, but the world has shifted around us and our calling, I believe our calling is to contextualize the gospel into the culture today. We don't change the gospel, but we do have to change how we proclaim it, because the ears that are listening are different than the ears that were listening before, and and I I don't think God has stopped and I don't believe our church body has stopped desiring that I think we are at a place where we're not sure how to do that and and we need to repent of our fear and and grow love, compassion for the unbeliever and grace for each other.

Speaker 2: 13:49

Amen, amen, so good. So let's tell a story or two about Jesus at work that captures your imagination around the topic of leadership development. Excited about this, eric, yeah.

Speaker 3: 14:00

Yeah. So the thing that really got me frustrated with our church body, if you will, was as we're developing, these leaders and people are coming to interest. There was no pathway for them. So I give you some stories. One of my favorite stories we just shared it recently, but it's a gentleman who's in one of my, my huddles on a Monday morning he worked in the secular world. He was very much enamored by the secular culture. His wife is believing, so she dragged him and the kids to church every Sunday. He admits he confesses that he slept most of the time because he was hungover or not interested or whatever Ended up being duped by his CEO into committing felonies Not really duped, but he allowed himself to do that. So he got convicted of felonies, lost his job and you know, all of a sudden the stuff he'd been hearing on Sunday mornings mattered a whole lot more.

Speaker 3: 14:57

So, that's testimony that God can work even if people are sleeping. You know that's like being hung over on Sunday morning, so keep proclaiming that word. But the relationship really did that. So it was a safe place for him to hear that. He ended up an owner of a bowling alley and he spent the first year or two despising that bowling alley because, one, it didn't let him live for Jesus, which he wanted to do now that he had sort of failed living for himself. And then, two, the clientele and everything there was just counter what he wanted to do and live. So it was extremely challenging for him.

Speaker 3: 15:38

But we were in this Monday group together with a couple other guys, huddling, praying, listening, working through and listening to what God is doing in his life, and ultimately he decided he took some theology classes, thought he wanted to be a pastor, because that's what a lot of people do who come to faith. They think the only vocation there is as pastor. And nonetheless, what's happened over the last year or so is he's started to live his faith out right there. He started to manage and mentor as a believer. He started to implement Christ-like practices and policies in his bowling alley Not kicking out, he still has a bar. He's not teetotaling, but his mind shift, has changed and it started to shift the clientele, it started to shift the people who attend and want to be there and it's transformed his life and the community around it. And that's just one story of allowing Christ to lead you right where you are instead of trying to shape yourself into what you think it needs to look like. But allowing Christ to do that takes time and takes some effort.

Speaker 2: 16:49

What a cool story. You've mentioned huddles a couple times. Yeah, you had me at huddle, eric. This is amazing. You're like the only LCMS pastor that I've ever heard reference huddling. What in the world is a huddle, eric?

Speaker 3: 17:05

So it's a term PLI, pastoral Leadership Institute. It's kind of in our church body but they've kind of gone global a little bit. That's what they call it, so I call it. I think small group doesn't quite give it enough oomph because it's not truly a small group. But what you do is you find some people who have resonated with your leadership and usually it's same sex. So they recommend males with males and females with females, which is another challenge. But I've done that. I've done mostly men over the years, and whether before PLI I did, I just didn't call it huddling.

Speaker 3: 17:38

But, you get together and you get in the word, you seek God's leadership and direction, but you also listen to each other and actively listen to each other, and it sort of serves as mentoring, it serves a little bit as counseling, it serves a little bit as a safe space to bounce ideas off one another, to pray for each other and again to find that direction in the word together.

Speaker 2: 18:02

I mean that's so and shout out to PLI for sure it's a great concept. But what do you say to the pastor who says I don't know that you can huddle and create safe places as a pastor because you're the pastor and there's certain things you shouldn't share with it, because a lot of these folks are members in your church, right? So what would you say to that brother?

Speaker 3: 18:21

Yeah, I mean, ultimately they all have been. So what would you say to that brother? Yeah, I mean, ultimately they all have been. I mean that's kind of the goal is to raise them up Every once in a while, bring in outsiders, but the goal is to raise up leaders within the church. I will say that is a challenge. I mean you can't always share everything that's going on within you as the senior pastor, nor should you when you're the leader of a huddle. That's why you sort of seek that out some other place. I think it's important for a pastor to have either other pastors that he's huddling with or you know every once in a while you are blessed that there are people who can handle that and who do get confidentiality or have confidentiality. That is rare, I admit that. But there is also a level of vulnerability. If you want your people to be vulnerable with you, they're not going to do that on a regular basis unless you know you reciprocate that to an extent. Again, contextualizing it is important, but it needs to happen.

Speaker 2: 19:22

I love it. I love it. So you've talked pathways to why this was one of our big, our big pushes around, um, around the convention. It seems like a long time ago, to be quite honest with you. But, um, why should the LCMS explore new pathways for raising up leaders? You've you've recognized some frustration, as have we. So what are your thoughts?

Speaker 3: 19:43

Yeah, so you don't. You know you don't go create a career, get knocked out of your career, find your way back to Jesus through the church and through Christian mentoring and then, you know, have a desire to be a pastor when you're 22. Yeah, you know, that happens when you're 32, right. Or 52 sometimes, or 52, right. You know, along the way you've got, you know, a mortgage or a spouse or any student loans, any other number of things that make it almost impossible to move four times in four years, put your children in three or four different schools and school districts in two or three different states, and you know, it's just impossible.

Speaker 3: 20:34

So another one, who's actually in Kairos right now. His name's Chad. Chad came to me because a woman in my church met him and fell in love with him. So it's the hey, a pastor, we want some premarital or some, you know, relational counseling. And so you meet this guy and and he's a former addict and he's gotten clean, gotten counseling. Jesus called him out of that. His testimony from day one was that Jesus called him out of that addiction and saved his life. And so he's, you know, learning and growing in that.

Speaker 3: 21:09

But he's not a Lutheran, he doesn't believe in infant baptism. He doesn't know any of these things, he just knows he loves Jesus and the ministry that brought him to know Jesus, which is great. But we have conversations, we pray, we talk. This is, you know, this is decades ago now, 10 years ago now. And you know, over the years he, then they get married, he learns the theology. We talk, we pray, we mentor all those things and then he starts his own addiction ministry. So we find some material, that's more, you know, law, gospel based, grace oriented, and so he's leading some own addiction ministry in our own congregation. Nonetheless, he's growing up.

Speaker 3: 21:47

But now again, his wife runs a daycare. It's taken her a decade to build up. You can't just close your in-home daycare and start it up in St Louis for two years and then you know, or Fort Wayne and go somewhere else. So you know, they've got. You know, real bills, real life, real kids, real bills, real life, real kids. And she's got a real job and he does too. So how do you leave all of that Right? And I know our church body says if you really were called in the ministry, god would provide and you need to trust him. I know we say that, but it just isn't practical. You know, over and over and over again I got, I can tell you story after story after story of guys that you to faith in their mid-30s or mid-40s and the idea of moving around is just not plausible. But, man, are they very interested in, maybe not being a full-time pastor, but leading other people in faith and ministry and maybe even word and sacrament, if they're allowed to.

Speaker 4: 22:45

And, practically speaking, it may actually not be the best interest of ministry to be moving people around anyway. I mean, think about the power of raising up local indigenous leaders to a certain area, a person who's established, a person who has relationships, isn't it, can't you make the argument that it is a more powerful witness for somebody who's gone through a conversion experience and then has been raised into a pastoral role and continues to serve a local community right with the relationships that already existed?

Speaker 4: 23:14

rather, than just sending them to another spot, right? I mean, maybe there's definitely times where that's the right calling for people.

Speaker 3: 23:22

But you know, talk about that I mean— Well, we're such a mobile society now. So, right up, uh, pastor shepherd is not respected in his hometown. That's what we always say, why you can't go back to your home church. Right, and I don't disagree with that. You know, I think some of the people that maybe were impacted when he was in his youth through his addiction, maybe he couldn't pastor them well, but there's something to be said about being a shepherd in a community for a long period of time. I don't know, I kind of see.

Speaker 3: 23:51

I don't want to say I see both sides on that but I think that God can and does work both ways Through long-term relationships. You can, you know, I've been on this journey with this guy and when I said, hey, I think you should consider you know a deeper level of ministry, when I said that to him because I knew his past, it meant more than somebody who said it to him who didn't know his past. So there's value in all those things. I just find it.

Speaker 3: 24:16

What I love about what you guys are trying to do and what I'm trying to partner with you in, as much as you'll allow me and I'm able to within our church body, is to say I think there's a case for both. I think there's a case for young guys or retired guys or single guys or, you know, as life leads it, go and do the online. You know. Residential training, I think, is tremendous and has great assets and value, but I also believe that, contextually in our society today, that having ministry or training that you can do with much less impact, if you will, on your life circumstances. In other words, widen the pipeline instead of extend the pipeline, widen the people that can get in. I think there's a lot of the people that can get in. I think there's a lot of purpose for that too, especially this with 50 people at most of our churches I I think.

Speaker 4: 25:12

I think there's some argument that a part-time gig would be a great thing too yeah, yeah if you're good, if you're a young person, like if you're in your early 20s, you're in college right now and you believe that you have the calling to be a pastor and you feel like you've been formed for this, like it is, in my opinion, a hundred percent the right decision to go to the residential seminary. That is the way to go, you know, like beyond beyond a doubt, that get your, get a strong start that way, probably the best way to equip you at a very, very young age to get started early in that type of ministry. But it can't be the only path for people, I think. So a lot of people have said SMP.

Speaker 2: 25:52

What would you say to someone who says SMP should be the preferred route for Chad and others?

Speaker 3: 25:58

Well, I would say similar things to what I think you've said, at least what I think I've heard from you. The price point on that is ridiculous because they're not willing to sponsor a scholarship at the same rate. Uh, why in the world would you do that and not get an mdiv? And and they don't really allow that path without. I mean it's extensive, um, it's, it's so I don't find it as overly accessible. I think that what I thought smp was going to be, I think, was more like what you're doing with Kairos, maybe somewhere in between, or Lutheran studies, but somewhere in between.

Speaker 3: 26:33

This is sort of above my pay grade. I'm not an academic, I'm not a dean or president. I just I'm on the ground and I see guy after guy after guy who know I got seven vacancies or had seven vacancies in my own circuit. I could have filled some interim stuff with some guys who would have been more than willing to help A lot of those people. They get word in sacrament, but no, you have to get the retired 85-year-old running around to three different churches so they can get word in sacrament. And it just seems silly to not steward the resources God's given us by equipping and training these men of faith to rise up to a calling.

Speaker 2: 27:18

I've talked to countless DPs district presidents and they need more general ordination pastors.

Speaker 4: 27:23

And.

Speaker 2: 27:23

SMP, the training there cannot give you the general pastor ordination certificate. So, anyhow, eric, why don't you think LCMS leaders are open to this conversation? Because, I mean, here's my take right now is many think you know, if we just don't address this, then it will go away. If we just stay silent and the reason I say this is because of the silence, because of the radio silence, because of a lack of like I should be getting blown up. My email should be getting blown up by leaders wanting to get on here and have a Jesus-centered, biblical, lutheran confessions conversation around this topic, because we've talked about it so frequently but that is not what is happening. So if we just don't talk about it, don't acknowledge what's going on, then maybe it goes away. Well, the Holy Spirit will not be stopped and the local church really really matters and the local church really really needs leaders right now. So will you really really take notice of this? If you're in an influential position right now, I pray you, I pray you'll reach out and have conversations. Because, last thing, on this, love to get your take If you come on this podcast and talk to us.

Speaker 2: 28:31

Jack and I are good guys. We're not going to like we can see multiple angles. We deal with the local church, we deal with the gray, we get all of the reality. So it's I don't know why, why we have to be so black and white on this topic and can't just as brothers talk about it more openly. The only thing I'm left with is it's a power play. You don't really care. I'm going to put, I'm going to put the worst. I don't want to put the worst construction on things, but that's what we're kind of left with.

Speaker 2: 28:59

You're. You're trying to keep, you know, your own little thing going rather than acknowledging and little thing meaning the, the residential. It's not well, it is, it's shrinking. So we could raise up a lot more leaders and and grow our institutions if we partner together, from the institution to the local church. But it doesn't appear as if that's where many in the LCMS want want to go, specifically those who are in positions of influence that could want to go, specifically those who are in positions of influence that could highlight this need more regularly in printed form and in synodical convention form, from districts to the national church body, and districts have made this a high priority, but unfortunately it's not been a high priority at the national synod, and I'm speaking from a place I've been at the last three Right. So I'm trying to remain soft to this issue, certainly am, and praying for more courageous conversations to occur, eric, any take from your person. So I asked a question.

Speaker 3: 29:58

I just answered my own perspective, so what do you think?

Speaker 3: 30:01

Well, I mean, I think that we're human beings and we're a lot more complex than we like to let on, you know. And so, to try to pinpoint a reason, I've done all those mental gymnastics, just like you have, and you try to not put the worst construction, you try to put the best construction, and that's where I ended up just being mad or frustrated. You know people won't really talk about it other than you know you kind of have to read between the lines. So there's this mindset that well, I went through eight years of education, you need to go through eight years of education.

Speaker 3: 30:32

There's this idea that we need to protect the gospel because, you know, God can't do it by himself. We got it, we have to do it right. So how can we possibly do it right if we don't have eight years, you know, to to correct your mistakes, if you will make you, make you perfect. And we have this idea that we don't need all these churches. I've heard this, you know well, the churches, they, they're unsustainable, they need to close, they're, they're too close together all these different things.

Speaker 4: 31:00

And not a real church without a pastor, Some people would say well, you would say that.

Speaker 3: 31:05

But that would argue get more pastors. They're saying get fewer churches, you know. And the answer is well, the church building might close, but there's still a community of believers there that needs word and sacraments. So we need pastors. They're either going to raise them up. I'll tell you this story. Tim, you don't actually know this, I haven't told you. And Jack, I haven't told you this.

Speaker 3: 31:26

But in my context I'm surrounded by the AFLC. I don't know if you know that, but the Association of Free Lutheran Churches in America. So I have a bunch of country churches and they're all AFLC. I don't remember the history on where they came from, but that isn't the point. The point is they've gotten small right and the seminary wasn't producing pastors, and so they started hiring pastors. They need pastors. So they found people with theological degrees. But in my context I'm in the Chicagoland area there are a bunch of unemployed graduates of Moody Bible Institute.

Speaker 3: 32:05

So the AFLC churches around here are almost predominantly led or almost entirely led by Moody Bible graduate pastors, and I'm no kidding. A few years ago it's been several now, but I just say a couple of years ago I had people from because they put their kids in our school and we have relationships with, you know with them and they put their kids in school and they said, pastor, you're not going to believe it. Our current pastors we got they got to go. Well, why, what's going on? They're telling us that we need to baptize infants, and it's like you're at a Lutheran church, right, that's kind of what we do, you know, but they've been led by moody pastors so long. And then they get the evangelical people on the board and then they actually oh wow, we can hire a Lutheran pastor, this will be great. They bring on a Lutheran pastor and he tries to do it for baptism. They run him out of town.

Speaker 3: 33:02

I mean, it's absolutely incredible, but the point is, people are going to find a pastor, right, sheep without a shepherd are lost. If they really want to fulfill God's work around them, as God is believing people, they're going to find a pastor, and so it's just. I mean, the argument we're having, I believe, is somewhat silly because, okay, fine, we just won't be an LCMS church, we'll just find a pastor because we need one, and whether that's they raise one up from the inside or whether that's, you know, whatever they end up doing. So what I love about what your guys are trying to do and why I'm trying to partner with is like I just want to create a bunch of people who are theologically trained and capable and when those churches finally do decide they need to give up or find somebody that, instead of going to Moody or wherever that we've got some people that that you know maybe can can teach them what they come to know and believe.

Speaker 2: 33:59

That's such an amazing story that never even crossed my mind that that's even a thing that a local church I mean that would reasonably do. Like a Lutheran church says, and this just says like, and this is what I've found with lay leaders elders, board members, et cetera.

Speaker 2: 34:26

Like they really, really want their local church to continue, grow, thrive, reach the community with the gospel and what we're, because we're kind of standing in the middle of a bridge like saying, hello, no, orthodox confessional Lutheran teaching, law, gospel, the best parts of our Lutheran doctrine actually matter, amen. We should want, we should want pastors who understand the catechism et cetera. Like this is not, lutheranism is not going away. Well, but if you're a lay leader who are just super practical, super pragmatic, give me a pastor that's going to preach a good sermon, loves the word of God, loves Jesus and is going to mobilize us for mission period, and that shouldn't be the primary motivation. But if you don't have folks like us, kind of staying in the gap, that's where a lot of churches will end up going. But may that not more? We enjoy it more and we're more passionate about it.

Speaker 4: 35:27

And there's more people other than pastors that are talking about how great it is to have our confessional, theological views on things and what a blessing it is to the community. And, Eric, to your point, there are many dozens of LCMS people going through the Luther House program right now. It would not surprise me if it's more than 100 within a year or two. Within a few years could be several hundred. They're going to do something. The churches, the LCMS is either going to equip them and let them serve in the local church or they're going to go somewhere and okay, so it blesses some other congregation and they get some really great Lutheran creature. You know, and I mean maybe that's what God is doing with this. I don't know we have to trust in the Lord with it. But there are local churches that need really really good confessional Lutheran preachers in there and the theology, our Lutheran theology, is such an incredible blessing to the local church. So, no matter what, we're going to have a positive influence. That's kind of the way I look at it.

Speaker 3: 36:34

That's exactly how I look at it too. I don't know how it's going to go. I pray and I'm so grateful that one of the things with you, tim, before I was willing to send anyone to you, know Lutheran Studies. I did some research on you a little bit and asked around. And well, because you know, my question really is are you honestly wanting to work from within the Synod and help to, if you will, bring about that reformation? For lack of a better word, you know that transformation that says look, we are called to create a pathway to pastor, the pathway to pastoral ministry, the pathway to ordination is not prescribed in scripture or the confessions. It's described what the end product might look like, but how we do it is up to the church. And so my question, you know, was are you really wanting to just bring about some transformation in that process? Or, you know, were you kind of causing trouble and going to be somebody who might help bring about division? Because that's the real fear, you know, is, if you disagree in our church body, it tends to lead toward division.

Speaker 3: 37:44

What I've come to find out about you, tim, from everything I can tell now granted, we're on opposite sides of the country, but I've truly appreciated your heart for bringing about health within our synod. And you asked about the waiting game before, and I do think they waited out because most people who are innovative leaders, who want pure gospel, get tired of it and go and do it somewhere else or find it somewhere else, whether it's parachurch or another church body. But I appreciate that you are trying to raise those troops up and to say look, we have something truly amazing within this church body and if we simply will let God do what we believe God does and actually live out what our confessions and scriptures say and what we actually confess with our mouth, if we live this out in our current context, it will be powerful and I believe that. So I don't know what God's going to do, but I'm just thankful that there's people like you guys who are speaking and leading humbly, and you know, I'm just I'm thankful for that, and so I appreciate you guys.

Speaker 2: 38:49

Appreciate the kind words. It's all God's work, bro, to be sure, and from my perspective, you don't leave your family. There are a lot of leaders in the Missouri Synod over the years. I can think of a couple pastors that I knew early on in ministry that said peace out, there's no place for me here. I have these kind of creative expressions that I think the church ought to take, as they saw a couple decades ago.

Speaker 2: 39:16

Now, even some of these trends and because we were so bullish in Lutheranism being more a sociological, introverted, heavy head, maybe not so much the heart those men walked away and I pray we can just say hey, man, there's space for you here.

Speaker 2: 39:35

We need to learn from you. We need all of the gifts of the body of Christ and it takes all different types of pastors with different personalities to reach our various communities today. And so, yeah, that's why we stay engaged in the conversation and, yeah, you don't leave your family, to be sure. To be sure, and I think confessional Lutheranism needs to stay engaged in the kingdom expanding game today, especially given the times, the conflicted times in which we live. Maybe that's a great pivot point. Last five minutes here, and this is going to be our last question, because I have to get to a kickball game. The school year is ending and I have to go play kickball with some eighth graders, which is an awesome, awesome joy. What do you think, though, are the best parts of our Lutheran doctrine that must be preserved, eric, let's focus, as we close, on what should unite us as members of the Lutheran Church of Missouri Synod.

Speaker 3: 40:27

Well, I don't know how often the term gets used anymore, but for a long time the term was Lutheran identity, you know, and we use that to talk more about our style of worship, I think, than we did about our true Lutheran identity and the things that I love about our Lutheran. What I see as our Lutheran identity is our proper distinction of long gospel, our clear application of a salvific gospel that does not require or even expect your participation in that salvation. I don't see that Every once in a while you'll find an independent church that maybe has that because they've truly been in the Word. But as a church body, that pure gospel is so real and not found anywhere else, and I don't know that we truly grasp that. The doctrine of vocation, I think, is huge, even though we kind of abandoned it. The importance of the lay people living out the calling right where they are is phenomenal. It's not Roman, you know, our theology is not Roman. And at the same time we have a priesthood like a pastoral ministry. We have word and sacrament that does something. It's not just a symbolic act that, you know, shows that we're all attending church together. It's actually a powerful act.

Speaker 3: 41:56

I had a guy in my church. I know I'm sorry. I had a guy in my church who wasn't taking communion with us, right, and his wife was concerned and upset about that. So you know, they came in, we talked about it. He grew.

Speaker 3: 42:09

He didn't understand what we've taught about communion fully because he had this idea. He said I don't need a symbolic act to show that I love God, right, but we talked about what it means to be able to bring your garbage that you've collected from the work week, his profession, what is a public servant that would collect a lot of garbage from what he saw on a day to day basis, you know and to be able to bring that garbage to God and have him actually take it from you and fill you with the forgiveness of the Holy Spirit, like his eyes lit up. He's like that's pretty cool, you know, and it just so. Just the reality that we have these practices and the things that are Lutheran, that we just take for granted because we've known them our whole life or most of our life. The world doesn't have that and that's, that's why I'm Lutheran still, that's why I'm not going anywhere. You can wait me out all you want, but I believe it, I live it.

Speaker 4: 43:05

And.

Speaker 3: 43:05

I just pray that God will continue to use us to unleash it and raise up that gospel, like he's always promised to do.

Speaker 2: 43:13

Amen, amen. I heard three things Passive faith it's a big deal. Extranose, it's a real thing. Vocation law, gospel, a vocation, a re-understanding of vocation, all of our various vocations, and then one of those vocations being the office of holy ministry, where the word is rightly preached and the sacraments are rightly administered. Why? For the forgiveness of sins, life and salvation that flows from the cross of Jesus Christ. To mobilize the priesthood of all believers to carry out gospel proclamation in our various vocations that is so, so crucial today. Cast vision just like 30 seconds on a vision for the LCMS. We and I have a tendency to do this. We huddled around the struggle of pastoral formation.

Speaker 2: 43:59

but we're getting a little broader right now Cast vision for what you hope the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod looks like in 2034.

Speaker 3: 44:08

You asked that. You told me you were going to ask that and now you're asking it and I'm still almost as speechless as I was when I first was told. And it kind of breaks my heart because I see myself more as a visionary and the honest to goodness truth is I don't know where we're going to be as a synod, you know, in 10 years from now. But I pray that God does what he promises to do, and that's to allow us to be exposed to fire that hurts and it's painful and it refines but, it doesn't ever consume, and that's what I pray.

Speaker 3: 44:42

I pray that whatever it takes, it'll be a refining fire right that proves genuine, and I do believe we have a genuine, pure gospel. I believe you know, the Solis you know are real and as we return to those things that will see the impact in the world by unbelievers you know, not other Christians becoming Lutheran Christians, but unbelievers, people far from Jesus, people going to hell, finding full life and forgiveness here, now, right and forever. And I think he's going to use our church by to do that, whatever it looks like 10, 20, 30 years from now.

Speaker 2: 45:20

That wasn't nothing, eric, that was significant.

Speaker 2: 45:25

It will take refining and we will not be consumed and the word of God will continue to go forward as we need one another, as we wade into difficult, refining conversations, as we recognize reality, the good, the bad, the ugly and the opportunities that exist all around us, and as we hold one another individually and collectively accountable to keep the main thing, the main thing, which is the mission of God to get all of his kids back. This has been so much fun. Eric, if people want to connect with you, how can they do so?

Speaker 3: 45:55

Well, whiskeyshepherdsorg would be the best. That's our website. You can email us there. We're on Spotify, iTunes. I'd love to hear from you. We're having a lot of fun doing it and I've had a lot of lay people say they've used our stuff to talk to their friends or co-workers, which is the absolute highest compliment that I feel like I could ever receive.

Speaker 2: 46:15

So check it out if you want. Amen Whiskieshepherdsorg. This is lead time. We'll continue to have Tuesday conversations. Friday hot topics are coming out too. 30-minute kind of shorter form podcasts hanging out and all those hot topics. They vary, Some are hotter than others, but it's a great way for us to just continue the conversation. If you've got any insight for guests or comments et cetera, just leave. All of the five-star review is very, very helpful wherever you take in podcasts. That helps get the word out about Lead Time and the work of the Unite Leadership Collective. It's a good day. Go and make it a great day, Eric. Thanks so much, Jack. Great work as always. Take care, God bless.

Speaker 1: 46:55

You've been listening to Lead Time, a podcast of the Unite Leadership Collective. The ULC's mission is to collaborate with the local church to discover, develop and deploy leaders through biblical Lutheran doctrine and innovative methods. No-transcript.