#15 | Spilling the tea on Nespresso and Patagonia

Today, we’re diving back in after the summer break with our opinions on two big pieces of environmental news: Nespresso’s recent B Corp Certification and Patagonia’s founder donating the company to fight the climate crisis.

Links and resources:

B Corp - Nespresso Global Certified B Corporation
Nespresso - Nespresso B Corp
Fair World Project - Nespresso: Known for human rights violations, now B Corp certified
Open democracy - The B-Lab is wrong about human rights - but there’s a fix
Green prophet - B Corp’s sustainability status slides as Nespresso joins the ranks
Daily coffee news - Coffee Companies Call for Stricter B Corp Standards Following Nespresso Certification
edie - #SustyTalk: Nespresso Uk’s Mary Child on B-Corp certification

Patagonia - Earth is now our only shareholder
CNN Business - Patagonia’s founder transfers ownership into two entities to help fight the climate crisis
Corporate knights - Patagonia made Earth its sole shareholder. Will other companies follow suit?
Business insider - Patagonia founder's big donation potentially saves him over $1 billion in taxes — and experts say it shows how the wealthy are able to 'entirely opt out of taxes'
CNBC - Patagonia founder just donated the entire company, worth $3 billion, to fight climate change
The Washington Post - Patagonia founder gives away company: ‘Earth is now our only shareholder’
Abc News - Can a clothing company save the planet? Patagonia wants to find out.
The New York Times - Billionaire No More: Patagonia Founder Gives Away the Company
The Guardian - Patagonia’s billionaire owner gives away company to fight climate crisis

Transcript

Note: This transcript is mostly unedited.

Brandee   0:05  

It's not easy living on a dying planet. But it is easy to feel overwhelmed when it comes to making changes and taking action to try and save it. Where do you start? Is it even worth it? Can you really make a difference? Welcome to The Tea on Sustainable Living podcast, where we attempt to answer these questions by spilling the tea on living sustainably in a world that's going to shit. I'm Brandee.

Hannah  0:26  

And I'm Hannah. And for years, we've been navigating the big messy gray area of caring about our planet. It hasn't always been smooth sailing, but we're not giving up yet. So brew yourself a cup of tea, get comfy. And let's try and navigate that gray area together.

Brandee   0:46  

Hello, Give-a-Shitter. This is Brandee.

Hannah  0:48  

And this is Hannah. And you're listening to episode number 15 of The Tea on Sustainable Living podcast.

Brandee   0:54  

Welcome back, everyone.

Hannah  0:56  

Yeah. Welcome back.

Brandee   1:01  

Yeah, we took quite a break over the summer. And a well needed break while need a break. Yes, we've been referring to the season two, but um, as you are, this is episode 15. Just gotta keep on numbering in order. Because it's easier than season two, episode one.

Hannah  1:18  

I was kind of excited to say Season Two that.

Brandee   1:21  

Okay, you can still say the episodes are still gonna be titled sequentially.

Hannah  1:26  

Excellent. Okay. Well, the thing is you do that part? I'll let you decide.

Brandee   1:32  

So yes, welcome back, everyone. Hope you also had a restful summer. And if you're listening to this at a time in the future, where it's not immediately after the summer,

Hannah  1:41  

I hope you're doing well.

Brandee   1:43  

Hope you're doing well. So today, we're back. And initially, I thought we would like chat about like what we've been up to this summer. And like where we stayed, we traveled together and talk about tying sustainability a bit. But I think that can be a whole other episode. Like because we chose like a travel sustainable property and blah, blah, we can go. That can definitely be a whole episode. Yeah. And other things that happened over the summer that I'm really excited to talk about are a couple pieces of, I guess, environmental ish news. I don't really know how to categorize it. But I'm not usually a big fan of like, following the news, because it's upsetting. And but a lot of people kept posting about these two things on social media. So I started looking into it. And I'm like mixed thoughts, feelings on these and thought we could try and work them out on this episode.

Hannah  2:41  

Sounds good.

Brandee   2:42  

So but before we get into that we're updating like the format a little bit. Basically, we're just not doing Tea Time with actual tea anymore.

Hannah  2:50  

Yeah, we we thought a lot of times when we didn't even have the right tea.

Brandee   2:56  

Yeah. And I think it was a bit confusing. And I thought, yeah, I like the idea of it. But like in practice, it just didn't work out. Yeah. So we're still gonna have tea time where we, you know, talk about it. Yeah, we're still the tea in it. There just won't be any actual tea. We're both drinking water right now. But we transfer sure we will be drinking tea, I will more likely meet and yeah, then you can. So with that, we're gonna remove that. And then I like want to do a bit more, more research and prep and do an episode so that we're doing like less googling. And the episode though, that will probably still happen. Like can't ever no prepare for all the things. And it's still like a casual kind of conversation about guests. That's not changing. So things will come up that I just can't stand to not know. Because millennial. So I think that, yeah, really the housekeeping updates. I'm still undecided on whether I want to do like a bonus or brief episode in between weeks of our regular episodes. Stay tuned for that. We'd love to see where you are.

Hannah  4:03  

Yeah, it'd be pretty obvious if we do it or not. And so

Brandee   4:08  

I hope you enjoyed our new intro.

Hannah  4:09  

Yes. Where we're proud of it. Yeah, it sounds much less wooden than the first one.

Brandee   4:16  

Yeah. Yeah. I like it. I think it represents the show bit more too. And then stay tuned for our new outro.

Hannah  4:23  

Yes. You've got a treat in store.

Brandee   4:28  

Okay, so, two things I want to talk about are espresso and Patagonia. And those who may not know Nespresso is now a certified B Corporation. And Patagonia, the founder has given away his company, essentially to fight climate change. So Nespresso, we can like try to have that chat together and try to move on to Patagonia. They will likely weave in relate a little bit but they're, they're a bit different in their news, so

Hannah  5:00  

Can you tell us what a B Corp is? Yep. So

Brandee   5:02  

a B Corp. And this topic is like, I think more gray to me and a bit more like upsetting confusing me, because I've always looked at B Corp, B Corporations as like, a gold standard. But like, I've always felt good about choosing them. Anyway, there's a nonprofit called V lab. And they have all these standards that are third party certification. And they've certified companies as certified B corpse or B Corporations, or a grocery store down the street. I mean, that's all organic and a B Corp. And you can find shoe companies and you can even find financial services. Like there's a whole range and only like the directory that you can find ton of category food clothing. Yeah, the banking financial stuff, surprise me.

Hannah  5:46  

Can you tell us what a B Corp is?

Brandee   5:49  

Yes, a B Corp, certified B Corp, certified B Corp V court like your hair, all of those. They're essentially a third party certification that kind of looks at how well a company is doing. So they have been certified by this B Lab, just the nonprofit to have met rigorous standards of social and environmental performance, accountability and transparency. So they look at just not its effect on the environment, the people who work there social efforts. customers as well, right? Yeah. Kind of all the things. So I've always looked at it as like, not like, I kind of view it as like recycling a good place to start but a bad place to stop. But I've always felt good, generally pretty good about even if a company is not perfect, okay, they have the certification. And I can feel good about, like starting there on our paper grocery stores as certified, excuse me as a certified B Corp. And yeah, I've always felt really good about like, whether I'm looking for a new shoe company or food or there are financial services that can be certified, which is new to me, which gave me an idea for a future episode, but we'll circle back to that. So Nespresso, being a child company of Nestle simplicity, subsea, right, it's very hard to get sideboard. Nestle is the parent company of espresso. And recently, Nespresso has become one of the certified be corpse. Yeah, and I have confusing thoughts on that because I of those who don't know, Nestle is not known to be the best of companies, no. And espresso, not just their, like, single use aspect of their coffee pods, which we'll come back to. But the fact that they have been in the news for not treating people very well

Hannah  7:47  

yeah, I was reading is that some child labor

Brandee   7:49  

in Alabama wage theft, just not good thing. So now, it's become a certified B Corp. and other people are like, wait a minute, right? This is kind of like tarnishing the name because I thought the whole point of like being a certified B Corp is like, Okay, we have the certification brands put it on your website, like look like these are the efforts that we are making we have made and for a company like Nespresso remember what they

Hannah  8:16  

because you have to be quite transparent to be a B Corp, right? You have to post all of the information for the weighing got improved, and I think it was really good, like a three year like improvement plan or something. Yeah, like a year old show improvement towards the areas you were

Brandee   8:35  

lacking in. Yeah. So and if you go on Express's website they have like this, this section of their of course, they're going to put it all over the website right of course, inspired by a holistic approach. B Corp certified companies rethink their approach at every level and implement practices that consider the impact on all stakeholders employees, partners, customers, society and the environment which sounds great. And for us a steam espresso This means committing to circularity, climate and communities through numerous programs initiatives and structures like they have some triple A sustainable quality program that I'm not sure how I don't know how much of a like posturing thing that is or how how much good it actually didn't like go down that that rabbit hole but anyway, so they put that on their website and on there's an article and farewell project that breaks down this news and looks at different like elements of like why this is interesting move to say the least. I love this one espresso perhaps best known for using celebrity spokesman George Clooney to give a high end cosmopolitan look to their single serve coffee pods which mean George Clinton can make anything look good. Or perhaps best known for the recent string of human rights violations on farms that grow the coffee from child labor to wage theft and abuse of factory workers. Who are all good things? Either way, the brand seems a surprising fit for B corpse claims to certify, quote, business as a force for good, unquote.

Hannah  10:08  

That's a great article, by the way, I have a lot of quotable elements. So yeah, we'll link it in the show notes. You should definitely. That was the article I found most helpful as an overview because

Brandee   10:18  

yes, farewell project.org and link the exact article, but so

Hannah  10:26  

what are you thinking?

Brandee   10:27  

I don't know what to do this. I personally don't buy these Nespresso pods. I have consumed them. You know, I'm staying with people because that's what they have coffee. That's what's there. And I make peace with that. Because I who might have come into someone's home and say what they should or shouldn't do. Coffee wise or just in general. But yeah, it does make me question my reliance on the corpse and looking for that label for that logo.

Hannah  10:57  

Do you buy that they could have met enough of the requirement?

Brandee   11:07  

I mean, they have to score an ad above for, like, different elements as a school that 84 Yeah, right. Out of I think the max is like 200. But to be a certified B Corp, you have to score 80 or above on on how they score things. And one complaint criticism I found about B corpse certification process, or it was a suggestion really changes that it's just a sum total. It's not like a minimum per category A guy. Right, so you can be lacking in one. But if you're doing really well, in another exactly. You meet that overall. So I don't know, maybe that's how they slipped. They slipped by it. I don't know the ins and outs of like, how they certified and what the exact.

Hannah  11:56  

And I mean, I guess I I guess some of the issues that have come out about child labor have come through investigative journalism. Right. I don't know if there's any current, like court case or anything like that again, espresso. So

Brandee   12:17  

I couldn't find anything about the big V lab, responding to people being upset about this. Right.

Hannah  12:24  

You've I mean, yeah. I guess you could say if there's no official complaint being made? Do they have to take it seriously? Right?

Brandee   12:36  

I just mean, that my initial thought is like, it's just, it just looks bad. Like it's bad PR. I think people in PR say there is no such thing as bad PR, but I don't know, in this case, I think it is. Because if your whole point is to like, certify people, and then they're supposed to feel good about, about supporting these brands, and companies, and then one that like, this isn't this doesn't make me want to now support espresso. Oh, they're certified before? Okay, I'm gonna I feel good. Products. Not it's more of questioning like this move. Like, it just doesn't?

Hannah  13:13  

Yeah. But I guess. I mean, I agree with you. But I'm also I'm wondering, you know, if someone's going to buy the product anyway, isn't it better that Nespresso are somewhat striving to be a more sustainable company, even if it's just for a case of greenwashing?

Brandee   13:38  

I mean, yeah, it's all relative. But I mean, doing something for the sake of greenwashing is just some more money ends up in their pocket. It's not actually.

Hannah  13:46  

But if the impact is this is the same as then if the I mean,

Brandee   13:51  

but to be to be like when you call something greenwashing that's, it's about profits, not about the impact. So it greenwashed rains tend to not make an impact. Okay, but as my

Hannah  14:02  

the way, right yeah, no, no, that's true. Maybe I'm using that term wrong. But I guess if in theory, which perhaps is debatable, they are going to have to try and improve, to continue to have the certification or because consumers are looking for a more sustainable product. Even if their goal is actually about profit. If to get more profit, they have to do something that's good for the environment. Isn't that a good thing in general like even if the if the motivation is to get more money

Brandee   14:41  

Yeah, I just My issue is like, does this like 100 phrases does this like condone their bad behavior? Like where's the accountability to like, stop treating people like shit?

Hannah  14:57  

Yeah, I mean, I guess there's kind of two retelling to different debates in a way, because I think one you know, from what I've heard and what we know about Nestle and from the news about Nespresso, it's quite hard to argue that there have a nice clean record. So yeah, there's definitely an issue around. Yeah, then being supported, and that by B Corp, and you're right, it kind of removes the it does remove some some of the credence around that certification, because you think, Well, we know all this stuff about them. But they still count as you know, more ethical product. But on the other hand, I guess there's another argument, perhaps maybe better use around a different kind of multinational? Or I don't know, like somewhere where they don't necessarily have that record. They don't do anything good. But they're not actively doing something bad. If the motivation to be more sustainable or ethical is to get money, rather than because they want to do something good for the environment. Is that isn't it? Maybe that's kind of okay.

Brandee   16:18  

I don't think is that doesn't sit right with me. But the but the impact

Unknown Speaker  16:21  

is the same.

Brandee   16:24  

But is it exactly the same? If you're like, driving force, motivating force factor, whatever you want to call it, is to make money, which is hard not to is in, in a capitalist, capitalist society, which we'll talk more about in another episode.

Hannah  16:42  

But I mean, you know, that is. I mean, I would say, if your motivation is just the money, then obviously, your limits are going to be lower. Because you're just going to want to cover what you need to cover in order to fulfill a minimum standard to show your customer, you're not going to like, work extensively to have an impact. But at the same time, you're still going to have an it does like you that individual motivation is not as important.

Brandee   17:24  

Yeah. I mean, you can't remove money from the equation because to exist as a company who is trying to make a difference, just in general here. You gotta keep the lights on.

Hannah  17:37  

Yeah. When does this kind of lead us into the next issue with Patagonia? Yeah. But I did you want to say something more about? Because?

Brandee   17:50  

Yeah, I think it just just exemplifies that. What we're always saying is that you have to do research and that everything is a big gray area, because you can't just take a headline, espresso is now certified B Corp. Okay, I'm gonna run with it. I mean, you can you can make your own decisions, do whatever you want. But to me, it's, I think it's only something to keep an eye on and to see what they actually do. And how they do it. If I don't know, I can get a feel for how much they care about, like, the all the bad things they've been known to do. I mean, I know other certified B Corp, coffee companies are not, ya know, and they wrote, they got together and signed a letter expressing their thoughts on espresso certifications. And I'll link the letter or the article. I got that from because I think, sorry, my building is very noisy, someone just slammed the door. Apologies, I've tried to soundproof as best I could. So I think there's room for improvement. For both sides here. I did find something that said that the lab in the past has been known to tighten their standards on like, different, like, certifying financial companies. So I think, like I mentioned earlier, like you get a it's a sum total. So maybe there's a way to tighten standards and for like each individual can while are they certified for but also, I feel like for a company to be started becoming known to do all these human rights violations and to be in the news for to be certified like, I don't know, I feel like you. You owe a bit more. I don't know. Like you got to work harder to earn that certification.

Hannah  19:51  

Yeah, maybe. Yeah. But I mean, yes, they're not starting from nothing. But then I I don't know, I just I agree for this part of me, which is like, kind of, like a practical side, which is just like, this is a huge you know, Nespresso is a big company. Nestle is an enormous company and not not gonna. They're not even Yeah, exactly. They're not going anywhere. So anything that we do that motivates them, even if that motivation is for money to maintain as a share of the market, but like anything they do, it's better than you.

Brandee   20:39  

I mean, it's all relative, like everything. It just, yeah, that the issue that that he's neighbors, sorry. It's just, it's just had has me questioning this B Corp certification and probably come back to a general certification episode. Yeah, I

Hannah  20:59  

mean, it's hard. Because, you know, it's also all very well as saying, like, do your research, but most the time we don't have the capacity or the knowledge or the information like, where do you find, you know, some what something like the B Corp certification does is it brings together all the information, one would have hoped that they're doing their due diligence, and you can look kind of look at their overviews, or you know, that they're looking at multiple different things. You know, it's like a shorthand, right to be able to okay, it's like B Corp, right? And then then yeah, and then and then you can eliminate other things on the list. And then if you want, you can look further or you can just sort of accept it. And it is true, it makes it more difficult, because you're now like, Oh, they're certifying someone who I'm like, I definitely don't think are worthy of the certification. Right, who else might they have certified? Why did they certify them? And, you know, was there some sort of like, influence there? Was it just a mistake? You know, that doesn't make you question things

Brandee   22:15  

it does. So it's definitely one I'm going to keep an eye on and see what the labs response is to like the letter that other companies signed? And, and yeah, I guess, like said, continue to treat it. B Corp certification, like recycling, good place to start, is to stop because, yeah, I mean, you're right. There is no perfect solution. And it is all relative. But just

Hannah  22:41  

right. I mean, is that right with me? Yeah. And I can imagine, you know, it's probably also a difference of emotional investment in that. I hadn't really heard of B corpse. I mean, I know you've talked about them before. But that's where I've heard about them as not being something I'm in particularly aware of. So if it's something that you have kind of put some faith in, right, understandably, you it's gonna be more of a like, Oh, wait. Yeah, why did she do that? Where's the money? I can be a bit more like, oh, well, you know, Yeah. Cuz I haven't, you know? Right. I mean, so invested. Whereas if like a fair trade thing, a similar scandal came up, then I might be like, Oh, but like, that's something I'm care about.

Brandee   23:30  

Yeah. Which reminds me that one of the terms that came up when I was researching is talking about greenwashing. But I hadn't heard this term fair washing. Yeah. So good. That was like greenwashing. Like, hey, look, our product is like green, environmentally friendly. But it's not really it's just like get you to buy it because they know that people are starting to care more about, you know, how we're treating our planet. Fair washing is like he just said fair trade. Is making something up here. Like it's being done in a fair way. Yeah. But it's just for sales for profits. Yeah, there is no impact really behind it. And, yeah, it doesn't I've also seen some like purpose washing the similar word. Basically, just all these marketing terms to make money. And when I'm over, over the impact they're claiming to make 10 Great. Now. So yeah, espresso B Corp. I keep an eye on it on link to that letter. Tell us your thoughts. Yeah. Let us know what what do you think about this? Have you heard of B corpse? Have you had you heard of Nespresso? Do you have thoughts on this? Does it make you question? Certifications a general like it is me sending me down a bit of a gray spiral. What do I do?

Yeah, I wonder is if I'm gonna look if there's an easy way for like one of these Coffee Roasters wrote a letter is there an easy way to contact B Lab? Like, share our thoughts? Yeah. Because he likes I couldn't find like a response from them either. So look into that. And then something else I had written down is, you know a few if you do drink an espresso maybe consider buying a supporting local coffee roaster That's what I came up with as far as like connection because yeah, we talked about doing your research is great to know if you have the time and knowledge and etc.

Hannah  25:41  

And I'm pretty sure I haven't had gotten a Nespresso but my brother used to have one of the capsule ones, and they ended up getting these reusable capsules. And then you can fill it with your own, like the coffee of your choice. I

Brandee   25:56  

had done that before. I bought a Keurig. And I

Hannah  25:58  

write reusable. I don't I mean, from what he said, it doesn't turn out quite as good. That's what I was gonna say. Yeah,

Brandee   26:05  

I think I'm blanking on his name. But YouTube channel I follow, I think did like a whole video on like, Keurig. And yeah, that is better, but it doesn't make the best coffee. So if you're like a coffee aficionado, or whatever, coffee snob don't often really have an answer for you. Yeah. And I know, you've noted that they are a question you had brought up, is it possible to ever make an unsustainable product more environmentally friendly? Yes, it is. It's a relatively new we don't we use aluminum pods over the plastic carry? Yeah. But not. I don't think the it's still putting responsibility on the consumer because I don't think they're acceptable everywhere, like curbside recycling. Right. So small percentage actually gets recycled. So yeah, there are lots of elements of innovation. Yeah. Firstly, I'm not going to now support Nespresso, like I'm not going to start buying it yet. Just because they're certified B Corp. I'm going to keep an eye on this and see it yeah, we'll see what comes up. What happens what comes out of this? The response from those coffee roasters in the letter?

Hannah  27:13  

Yeah.

Brandee   27:16  

Because, yeah, ultimately, like a question I jotted down is does this. Does this change other B corpse? Is it not as important now? It? Yeah, it does change it for me. Would you now doubt a beagle. So yeah, it would be more I would be less like, oh, there'll be court. Okay. I'm good. I would have more of a doubt. Like, well, let me like, let me investigate a little bit more into this company. Yeah, that is like a big negative impact for the for the certification. So yeah, that's where I've landed for now. See how it unfolds?

All right. are the ones that asked for the news. Patagonia?

Hannah  28:03  

Yeah, this one's everywhere. This I well, I mean, yeah, the Nestle one that the Nespresso I hadn't really heard about, until you've kind of mentioned you wanted to talk about it for that episode. But the Patagonia is like yeah, that seems to be everywhere. And either seems to fall along the lines of like, they're having a massive tax break by doing this, or like, this is a really unique, you know, model for like non like a for profit. But for the environment company.

Brandee   28:41  

Yeah. So yeah, we'll have Patagonia first of all, is a outdoor Running Company, basically, that has always been known to be a bit different putting people and environment pretty high up on there. Yeah, their values. Go on their website. It's like, activism,

Hannah  28:59  

right. It's like, and they've given percentages of their profits.

Brandee   29:04  

I think, a long time and also a certified B Corp. So there's the time so yeah, their founder. I don't know how to say his name. There are a lot of hours Yvon Chouinard. So how you would say I'm sorry, apologies, Yvonne, if that's incorrect. Yeah, giveaway company to fight climate change. And how how did he do that? So basically, by donating his company,

Hannah  29:32  

but donating it to a company that like to a to a nonprofit that he set up and

Brandee   29:40  

to trust. So we have the whole vast collective. This nonprofit will make sure the company's annual profits which are about 100 million per year will be used to protect nature and biodiversity, support thriving communities and fight the environmental crisis. And the letter on their website by basically describe it as that's where 100% of the non voting stock goes. I don't really know enough about stocks and voting and within a company structure, but so that's that. And then the Patagonia purpose trust. The idea is that it will create a permanent legal structure so that the company can never deviate from its vision, a for profit business can work for the planet. Yeah. So yeah, and that's where all of the voting stock goes, whatever that means,

Hannah  30:27  

which was all owned by the family already, like I don't, as from from what I from, I maybe double check that listener, but that is what I understood from the research I've done.

Brandee   30:40  

So. And yeah, and then the letter on the website was like this, quote, truth be told, there was no good option available. So we created our own one option was to sell Patagonia and donate the money. And that was like the initial response that like when I was looking into this is like, when just don't want to just donate the money. But according to this letter, he said, we couldn't be sure that our new owner would maintain the values, or keep our team of people around the world employed, which I think is good, considering people. Another path was to take the company public. And in this letter, what a disaster that would have been, he's quoted to say, even public companies with good intentions are under too much pressure to create short term gain at the expense of long term vitality and responsibility. Also sounds legit, legit to me. And then there's that, quote, truth be told, there were no good options available. So we created our own, which I think is great. Now. Instead of going public, you could say we're going purpose, instead of extracting value from nature and transforming it into wealth for investors will use the wealth Patagonia creates to protect the source of all wealth. And then it goes talks about that structure voting non voting. And, I mean, I, I don't have as many issues with this piece of news as then espresso becoming a B, certified B Corp. Because I think some criticism that I think I do agree with is that maybe it's given too much credit, like, Oh, look at this, like, this rich white guy, like doing good for the environment, like Yeah, putting too much like, praise in his direction, should this, this should be more of a standard thing. It's not really putting people over profit, there's still profit involved, because for the money to then go to the nonprofit and trust, yeah, there has to be profit, which is selling your products, which they've always tried to use more sustainable materials and that sort of thing. So what are your initial thoughts on this?

Hannah  32:50  

I think it's certainly interesting. I think yeah, I don't know. I think I feel generally positive about it. You know, I do think it obviously raises some questions. I'm, you know, and also the tax issue, I'm not so like, bothered about? Yeah. As in. And, again, maybe maybe I would be more bothered if I fully understood how taxes work and how the taxes and the stocks work. Yeah. But you know, it's like, do you know, if you look at the record of the company, do they have a history of evading tax? Not to my knowledge, you know, like, Does that seem consistent? You know, does that seem consistent from I mean, obviously, I don't know what that person thinks. But it seems consistent, more consistent with the values that they presented over a long period of time in business to say they are genuinely trying to do what they're saying they're doing and it's sort of a weird side effect of how tax works in the system in the country, they're in there by donating money then that's like becomes a tax break tax break, which can be used by wealthy individuals to avoid paying tax by you know, giving money to family, etc, etc.

Brandee   34:17  

But if the money is not ending up back in our pockets with a tax break, if it is in this nonprofit in this trust, and the money does go to what they say it's right there it's supposed to go towards I don't really see an issue. Yeah, I mean, I guess

Hannah  34:32  

the thing that I find interesting is kind of like this kind of ethical, you know, thing of like, obviously, because he's a very wealthy individual, through creating this business. And I presumably his family and the other people involved, it is this kind of the power and influence one individual can have versus for example, if it was just a normal company paying tap Six, then the government is choosing man to spend the tax. And in theory, that is a more could be argued to be a more ethical option, because in theory, a government should be representing the wants of the people. Now, we know that's not necessarily always the case. But that is our theories. Right that the government is representing a broader range of people. And I can also see, right now I'm happy with what he's doing, because I'm in agreement with the values that this person have, I think it's great. Like, it sounds on paper, it sounds great. However, if he was an ultra right wing, political activist, like gun lobbyists, and was like I'm putting all of which is equally viable, right, that I'm putting everything into this private company, there's going to work to, you know, to, to develop the ultra right wing across the world, because this is the correct what I wage and this is what I believe to be correct. I think I'd have a lot more issues. Yeah, I would do so is by creating the structure, it's leaving a lot up to an individual. And because of the amount of wealth, obviously, then that does have a big impact yet. Whereas in theory, a system like taxation, is designed to create a fairer system, because the government should be thinking of the people.

Brandee   36:35  

Yeah, as a whole in theory on paper. Yes. But

Hannah  36:43  

I don't know. So that's kind of my gray area. Yeah. It's like taking it and being like, okay, but if this was in a different situation, and, you know, do I even agree with an individual being able to have this much wealth?

Brandee   37:00  

Well, no, to be in with a number. Yeah, the the unevenly just the uneven distribution of wealth is, is, is an issue. But I think, yeah, like I said, I am in agreement with the, the motivation behind it. And I think that, it I hope that it will inspire other companies to do something similar because it is working within the system that we currently have. For all its flaws. And and, you know, our, our time is limited to improve things. Yeah. Climate wise, so. So, um, yeah. That, well, I see your point. I, I still support this. Because

Hannah  38:01  

because I think it'll definitely be interesting to see I don't.

Yeah, I'll be interesting to see how it works. And yeah, it's definitely interesting, you know? Yeah, there is an element. Yeah, there's the EDI is thinking again, you know, other options, like coding cooperatives or having employees have more of a show in the business. You know, they've definitely chosen in an individualistic route. Which allows them to be more extreme in the action that's being taken because it's based on one person's vision, or maybe, you know, a few people a small group vision. So, more decisive action can be taken, but

Brandee   39:08  

I think had this Yeah. been like a brand new company or a company without a track record, like Patagonia has for for doing good. I might question that more, but it just, to me, it just seems in line with our values. And I, yeah, I believe that the money will do what they say it's going to do. Yeah. Whereas like, Nespresso. I don't believe that. I don't know. No, I don't believe I don't have as much faith in their, their attempts to, you know, have a better and greater impact on the planet and people.

Hannah  39:51  

Right, I mean, yeah, I definitely that's why I'm not worried about the, you know, or I don't know Yeah, like the tax break stuff. I'm like, well, that doesn't seem to be part of the ethos. Like I don't. There's a lot of work to avoid paying tax. True. You know, I think Yeah, unfortunately, it shouldn't be like this. There are a lot of ways, rich people and big companies used to evade paying tax, which are a lot simpler than a lot less public and a lot less public than great.

Brandee   40:29  

Yeah, I did find out I wanted to read this blurb from an article I found about taxes. While critics noted that the deal enables the family to avoid paying hefty estate taxes defender said that since the sellers had accepted not one penny for their shares, no taxes were due Janardan system arrangement ensures that Max profits go straight into social action without being taxed first, while passing through shareholders hands will also protect against what he sees as capitalism's biggest flaw, the chance that future leaders would compromise Patagonia's principles. Ultimately, he hopes this move will inspires others to take outrageous actions of their own. Yeah, and I I'm sure that hope. Like I said, before, we there is danger putting putting him in Patagonia on a pedestal. So I need to check that like with myself. Yeah. But that's not Oh, look how great he is. And just Okay, good. Now, what's next?

Hannah  41:22  

Yeah, it is really entry. I hadn't realized how, um, because even hearing you say that, I mean, I'm just going back to what I've already said. But it is true. There's like a part of me. That is quite even though I agree with what he's doing. That is very wary of like, you know, even this by not paying tax, we're giving more money towards action. And it really is an individualistic approach is really putting mean like we know, but within our system than our government. Yeah. And we're going to make a better choice than our government,

Brandee   42:01  

which is, I think it's true.

Hannah  42:04  

Right? Yeah. to it. Yeah. Maybe? Because, yeah,

Brandee   42:10  

there is an argument that okay. If the money should be tax and go to the government? Well, I don't trust that the American government would have a similar impact. Yeah.

Hannah  42:25  

I don't know. I'm a big fan of taxes.

Brandee   42:31  

But I think he's doing the best he can with the resources he has. He is not a politician. He's not, you know? I don't know.

Hannah  42:43  

No, it's interesting.

Brandee   42:45  

I don't disagree with you. Right. But at the same time,

Hannah  42:49  

yeah, on like a practical level, I agree, it's probably going to have a more positive impact. I guess there's like a part of me that's grappling on a theoretical level or an ethical level one. Right, like, you know, I believe in taxation, and I believe in generally higher taxation, because I think money should be shared. And the system, the Deccan democratic systems we have in most countries are two, that the government has an overview. And, theoretically, we'll put that money into areas that benefits society as a whole. In theory, yes. But

Brandee   43:33  

in the US where the amount, the sheer volume of money and taxes that are spent on military and yeah. I'd prefer this this route than this money being taxed and going to the military. Right. And if you

and if it was someone who have completely different values, I mean, you're entitled to their opinion, but the good thing about this podcast is that it's our opinion.

Hannah  44:06  

Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting.

Brandee   44:10  

Yeah, no major issues. I think there are definitely things to consider and be wary of and rich white men are, you know, do have a lot of power.

Hannah  44:18  

Yeah, it's very interesting. I like talking with you as made me feel more. Like it's weird. Like I feel there's quite a strong emotional reaction I didn't expect to feel that has like a weary aspect element of this.

Brandee   44:35  

More so than like the Nespresso. I guess I'm less.

Hannah  44:41  

Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting, isn't it because the Nespresso one Yeah. But like isn't as interesting. I'm like, what, what value of mine is this like, unexpectedly hitting that the other one didn't? Because obviously, it's like hitting on something that I wasn't expecting it to. And I yeah, I mean, I think it's what I said, I think it's like this, that I'm pro collective action and wary of in some way wary like theoretically, of the power like that the power that one person holds by having that much money. And by basically kind of taking like, obviously their opinion and throwing all their money at it. I happen to agree with his opinion. So I'm like Pro and everything, but it's really interesting. It's like hitting this like a part of me that's like, oh, you know, which I didn't expect? And then I'm like, Why doesn't the Nespresso hit the same?

Brandee   45:56  

This was different if like, right, not someone who typically relies on or looks for, yeah, third party things? Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. Yeah. Okay, so she tried to tie it all together.

Hannah  46:14  

What is what's come out of that for you? What do you think,

Brandee   46:17  

Oh. I think what my initial, like main kind of takeaways and taking action were based specifically on like, these two issues separately, so right inside about Nespresso is doing more research when you can. And using maybe not just things that are certified recourse, but any third party certification as like a jumping off point. So do your research, actually, you know, dive deeper when you can, as you can. And with Patagonia, I think if you consider supporting them, if you need, if you need outdoor apparel, they also have like, I don't know what the name of their program is, they prepare their their products. So they like they take the they they take that responsibility on. And other brands general like, you know, do you really need to buy something? Yeah, true, your clothes better, etc. But I think it's more of as far as like, taking action, it's more of a you know, like, we always say, what is your priority? Is it Yeah, is it material? Is it environmental impact, is it the people, but then also a lot of thought of like just news in general like this, these two pieces of news have sent me into a great spiral spirals. And I am someone who tends to limit the amount of news that reaches me. So that is something to consider if you are getting bogged down by by like climate, environmental news news in general, too, to tweak how you consume news, if you need to unsubscribe from things. unfollow people on social media, etc. Because, yeah, like most things, it does come down to what, how you relate to the issue as,

Hannah  48:19  

as we've demonstrated in this, yeah.

Brandee   48:21  

And those jobs. And, you know, we can't say whether you should or shouldn't, I don't know, support Nespresso or Patagonia. It's, it's your decision. And hopefully, the points we've made have helped you to turn thoughts on that. Hopefully haven't set you into a gray spiral of your own. Yeah. But I think it's my main takeaway is that had my train of thought now I just lost it.

Hannah  48:56  

Is that is that isn't

Brandee   48:57  

it? You can't just take something for face value. There are a lot of pieces into like each each of these things that we've talked about, and then espresso and the Patagonia.

Hannah  49:08  

Yeah, it would be nice to take it at face value.

Brandee   49:13  

We really think we have this podcast. Yeah. So we will leave you with all links and resources that Yeah, we talked about and probably more than we didn't even get to. This episode is already gone. But oh, yeah. Or 50 minutes. Oh, wow. Okay. And yeah, I think if future episodes try and keep it under 30 minutes, but I had more, more to say than we thought we'd get on these two pieces. I thought by having two main things. We just needed to choose the one Yeah, maybe. There we go. Enjoy. I hope you have enjoyed and let us know your thoughts or main takeaways from this episode Graham on our Instagram at the T on sustainable living. On our website on our website, the T on sustainable living.com where you can find our show notes and links? And yeah, the show notes for this episode will be the T on sustainable living.com/episode 15. And yeah, well, moving forward, as far as our Instagram, I'll still just like, repurpose these episodes. And then if things come up new, these things pop up in the news again, they're involvements, I will try to post them in the very least in stories. And, yeah, we'll see how it plays out. Because it's not really something that we can like, there is a final thing to it, both of these. It's like, well, we need to see what's gonna happen. Yeah. And well, both of these companies do what they say. Yeah, they're going to do.

Hannah  50:44  

Yeah, it'll be interesting to see.

Brandee   50:45  

So you have to be continued. And, yeah. All right. I think that's it. Thank you so much, Give-a-Shitter, for listening. And we will see you in the next one.

Hannah  50:59  

Bye, bye.

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of The Tea on Sustainable Living podcast. Now go share it with a friend, a co worker, a partner, a family member, or whoever. A pet, your cat, someone on the street.

Brandee   51:20  

Whoever you think could use a little more support on their sustainability journey, share it.

Hannah  51:24  

You can send them over to our website, theteaonsustainableliving.com. And while you're there, check out the show notes for more info on today's topic. 

Brandee   51:33  

All right, Give-a-Shitter, tea you later. Get it? Tea you later? As in, see you later? So punny… 

Hannah  51:33  

Brandee!

Transcribed by https://otter.a