3. Economics and Culture in the 80s - with Alwyn Turner

“Economics are the method, the object is to change the soul” - Margaret Thatcher (1981)

What were the various tensions and contradictions between free markets and social conservatism in the 1980s? How did these manifest in the culture, music, and media of the time?  

In this episode, I’m joined by author and historian Alwyn Turner to ponder these questions amongst many others. In this wide-ranging discussion, we run the gamut from monetarism and Milton Friedman to Band Aid, Only Fools and Horses and much more.  

We hope you enjoy the podcast! 

* You can also find out more about Alwyn and his work on his website here: http://www.alwynwturner.com/ 

Transcript

audioHarryWhite21229905855 0:00

Welcome to the podcast Awin. I'm really happy to have you on this one.

audioAlwynTurner11229905855 0:03

Hello. Good to be here.

audioHarryWhite21229905855 0:05

So you are a historian in modern British history. It'd be great to hear a little bit about your background and maybe a bit about what differentiates you from some of the other historians on modern British history out there.

audioAlwynTurner11229905855 0:19

I write books mostly. I also lecture at the University of Chichester, but I see myself primarily as a writer and I tend, I think probably to give more focus to. Popular culture than other, modern historians. Do I take it more seriously? It's increasing though, isn't it? There's a growing trend in history as to look at the, the cultural aspects, but, I do specialize in trash pop music and TV sitcoms.

audioHarryWhite21229905855 0:47

That was one of the standouts of reading, some of your books. So I started reading your one on the nineties and having that contrast between the high politics, and the low culture of LAD culture. All of that I find really interesting. It reminded me a little bit of. Dominic Sandbrook does a little bit of that stuff as well. Combining cultural, investigations with the politics.

audioAlwynTurner11229905855 1:10

I guess the other thing is, Although I do write about politics, I do. So from the point of view of a consumer, I'm not a journalist. I never have been. I'm not a White Hall or a Westminster Insider. I consume politics through the tv, through newspapers nowadays, through the internet in the same way that everybody else does. So, I'm trying to give the view of how this stuff is received. I'm more interested in that than in the process by which policy. Is formulated. I'm interested in where the public experience it.

audioHarryWhite21229905855 1:43

And I think we're definitely gonna get into that with this one today. So for this episode, we're talking about, the 1980s. I wanted to start with thinking about where, the. Mood and the general, thrust of the 1980s came from so often the beliefs of one period is a reaction against that of the previous So you might think of something like the 1960s and the color and consumerism of that period being a reaction to the drabness of austerity Britain. If the 1980s was reacting against something in the past, what do you think it would be?

audioAlwynTurner11229905855 2:22

I guess primarily it's, the feeling that Britain is internal decline, which seemed to have gripped the nation fairly heavily in the 1970s, as the reality of the end of Empire becomes. Absorbed into the popular consciousness, this feeling that Britain's best days are behind it. Margaret Thatcher, who rather, conveniently spans the entire decade of the 1980s as Prime Minister with a few months at either end, very clear that that, that she believes that the great days can be reclaimed. And I think that's what she's trying to do. The, the problem I guess is, is obviously decades don't fall conveniently in terms of politics or culture or anything else. according to the calendar. And the first bit of the 1980s feels like the 1970s. Writ large. I mean, it's worse. 1980s is the worst year for the economy since the war, at least, I mean, an absolutely dreadful year. 1980 g d p collapses by 4%. Unemployment goes up by nearly a million in that one year. Inflation is running at 18%. Company profits are down. Manufacturing output is down massively. It is a really bad recession. And that's the beginning of the 1980s. It feels like it's the 1970s continued. I don't think you really feel properly the 1980s until, I don't know. It's arguable these things. Obviously, they creep up on one, but by the end of 1984, you can see there's a definite new mood. December, 1984 is the, British Telecom. It's privatized. It's the first of the really big privatizations. There have been others. I mean, the previous year associated British ports was privatized, but nobody talked about it. Nobody said Have you got any shares in associated British ports? Whereas Telecom shares became part of that popular capitalism Margaret Thatcher had been pursuing. And that's, that's December, 1984. The minor strike is clearly finished and, defeated, organized labor as has ended. Its, uh, its its period of influence. so it takes a while for the 1980s to kick in. I think by the middle of it. We are very definitely in a different country.

audioHarryWhite21229905855 4:39

I'll put another argument to you to see how you respond to it. Could it be argued that actually the end of the seventies was the moment that the Labor party rejected the post-war consensus where you had, I think it was James Callahan himself saying, The model that we had before about putting more money into the economy, trying to have full employment, simply doesn't work. Could that be seen as the end of the, seventies?

audioAlwynTurner11229905855 5:10

It, it certainly, um, spells the death nail for that post-war consensus is based on casian economics. So, so the, the speech in 1976 to the, uh, to the labor conference at the height of the, um, the crisis that led us to apply to the International Monetary Fund for a, uh, an overdraft facility effectively. And yeah, Callahan's saying, you cannot spend your way out of recession, which of course was entirely the point of Kenyans economics. You could spend your way out of recession. That's how you got out of recession. So yes, I mean, he, in that speech, in that moment, he repositioned British politics away from unemployment as the key indicator towards inflation as the key indicator. And that's, that's the certainly paves the way for, for what is to come. Yeah.

audioHarryWhite21229905855 5:59

If that was the old model that the British economy was run on, what was the new factor, right? If we want to use that word, economic model,

audioAlwynTurner11229905855 6:11

um, I, I, I think we can use the word that, right? It's just, it, it's not necessarily synonymous with Thatcher. I, I, the issue Margaret Thatcher herself. I mean, she starts by not being interested in economics, frankly. I mean, she, she, she's really not concerned about it. She doesn't trust economists. Um, her instincts are those that she learned at her father's knee in Grantham. It's, it's, it's the old traditional virtues of self-reliance, of self-help, never a lender or a borrower be save up for a rainy day. All the, all of that stuff, the, the, the, the kind of good old, um, 19th century homily, that's very much where Thatcher is. She is persuaded that Monetarism is the way forward. Um, Keith Joseph, who is very much a, a economic guru who does think about economics, um, is. Persuaded by this new concept of monetarism, that inflation is the key target and within that inflation is caused by, um, a surplus of money. That money is effectively a commodity. And if there's too much of it, then it's price forms and, and that's inflation. I'm in, in the simplistic terms that I understand these things. Um, I don't know that Thatcher really. Cared a great deal about Monetarism. I think she quite liked the simplicity of the formula at the center of it. Excess money equals inflation. That's it. I think she buys into that. But even Keith, Joseph, I even, but what, 1976, I think it was, he made a speech, which was titled Monetarism Is Not Enough. He saw The big state as being the enemy. So although he, he does accept monetarism, that's not the totality of Keith Joseph's thinking, and the emphasis on the state is the bit that Thatcher is attracted to. She's keen to, to, to take away as much power as possible from the state. And in her terms, give it to the people, power to the people she uses as a slogan, rather cheekily, uh, appropriating the, uh, the messages of the late 1960 liberals. Um, but it's about removing the state from the economic sphere as much as it is possible to do so.

audioHarryWhite21229905855 8:35

And what about the argument that Margaret Thatcher wasn't actually a conservative but was. A 19th century liberal due by that.

audioAlwynTurner11229905855 8:47

Yeah. No, I think that makes perfect sense. we mentioned earlier that idea of breaking the post-war consensus. We are now so far away from that consensus that I think we can look at it as that was the blip. It wasn't that Margaret Thatcher broke it or that James Callahan started to break it, it's, that was an interrupted little period of British history. What Thatcher was arguing the policy she's putting forward the idea that these big companies should be in private ownership rather than state ownership. That's made sense for virtually the whole of British history since the Industrial Revolution. It's only, only for a couple of decades in the 1950s and sixties and into the seventies when. That's not the norm. She's reverting to an earlier standard I think.

audioHarryWhite21229905855 9:35

And your books, we've mentioned talk a lot about culture, the arts, and talk about how they're often a reflection of high politics or even preempt, uh, high politics. What in the world of culture and arts became symbols of that, that, right. If we want to use that word, economy. What would you point to that? Uh, gives some flavor to the political analysis.

audioAlwynTurner11229905855 10:00

Um, well, I mentioned bandaid earlier, I think. Bandaid and live aid are very ate in their, uh, their inclinations because thatcherism, if it is 19th century liberalism, comes with a 19th century sense of obligation to charity. Um, and, and that fitted in perfectly well. We are a rich country. It is right that we should give money to charity to less fortunate parts of the world. This is, this is not. Inimicable to Thatcher whatsoever. Um, and it's notable in 1976, I think it was Norman Tebbitt, the, the Hard Man of Thatcherism, the man who was more thatcherite than Thatcher, um, appeared that the, uh, the Brit Awards, presenting awards to, um, Elton John and to wha for opening up new markets in the Soviet Union in China, respectively. And in his speech he says he knows nothing about pop music, but wasn't live aid. Absolutely wonderful. There is a sense where the culture has moved at that point. But there's also, I mean, the, the, there's a very, very strong current of Anti Thatcherism that runs right the way through nineties, 1980s. Culture as well. It just doesn't tend to be necessarily the biggest selling stuff. Um, channel four, which was of course set up by the Thatcher government, uh, and intended to be run on fat right lines. Becomes a, a, a vehicle for protest, but it's channel four. You know, it's not as, it's not it V or BBC one. The, the, the, the oppositional culture tends to be ghettoized into it. Uh, channel four, BBC two, there's a strand of pop music that resists, but it's nowhere near the seams of the, uh, the, the, the big groups.

audioHarryWhite21229905855 11:47

And what about alternative comedy? I know that's a, an area of interest to you that started to become fledgling and, and growing in, in the, in the 1980s. Is that right?

audioAlwynTurner11229905855 11:58

It, it coincides almost exactly with the rise of Margaret Thatcher herself, the, uh, the Comedy Store, which is the first. Comedy Club in Britain since the early sixties opens the same month that Thatcher was elected in 1979. Um, there was also, uh, not the nine o'clock News, which was a genuinely popular TV show that was supposed to have been starting. Broadcasting in the spring of 1979 and was delayed because of the election. So it didn't start until later. But it, but that's the other strand that feeds into alternative comedy is this rebirth of the Oxbridge comedy tradition that goes back to Peter Cook And, um, the, the Monty Python goodies kind of era, um, that's reborn in, in the 1980s forms a new alliance with these comedy clubs that are emerging. And yeah, they take a very definite alternative. Comedy is defined almost entirely by its opposition to Margaret Thatcher. It's, and its commitment to a political agenda, even when it's not being overtly political. And some of it is just downright silly. But the point is that it's not supposed to be racist, sexist, homophobic, the great Sholis had, had, had emerged. The, these are the things that, um, we must now avoid.

audioHarryWhite21229905855 13:14

Did it mainly reject the social conservatism of Thatcherism or was there a rejection in alternative comedy of the free market economics, or was that less prominent because maybe economics, uh, is just less engaging sometimes for, for, for, for comedy.

audioAlwynTurner11229905855 13:32

Less funny. Um, there's not

audioHarryWhite21229905855 13:34

yeah.

audioAlwynTurner11229905855 13:36

There's not many jokes in Milton Friedman. Um, yeah, I, I, I think it is, it's, it's about the social side of it because to a large extent, the, the, uh, the economic side of comedy as with pop music is incredibly capitalist. And that was the point with Channel four, because we have so few TV channels, there is not, it was considered, there was not sufficient competition. So the idea of Channel four and the structure of it was that Channel four did not make its own programs. It was allowed to commission programs from independent production companies, and that was supposed to introduce some element of competition and free market because there would be different production companies competing with each other, even if the outlet was a single entity. And the production companies that spring up tend to be ones that are. Rooted in comedy. I mean, there's hat trick productions, for example. These independent production companies, it was comedians who really led the way on that. Um, and Channel four love it because, uh, it doesn't have a very big budget and one person standing in front of a microphone is a hell of a lot cheaper than making a period drama. So, you know, they put on a lot of standup comedy and it, it, it gives a lifeline to that, uh, emerging art form. But it is essentially comedy is, is, uh, I mean, it's a very competitive business. It is based around selling tickets and, and, and, and getting viewers on tv. It is, it is a free market form. In the same way that you can see that the punk revolution of 1977 and the emphasis on independent record labels set up, you can release this record yourself. You don't need a major company to do it. That's a very, that right concept as well. There's entrepreneurial activity there. Um, so it, yeah, it's, it's, it, the economics. I never really got to grips with.

audioHarryWhite21229905855 15:27

It's interesting. I didn't know that. That government created Channel four, and then felt that it, it wasn't reflecting their values. Did they make any attempt to reclaim Channel four and remold it to their will?

audioAlwynTurner11229905855 15:41

No, they didn't as, as far as I'm aware. No, they didn't. It was, it was, it went wrong. No, it, it, it, it's concept of it was supposed to be a minority channel. But they didn't understand that minorities was now a political term. Um, and it meant black people and gay people, and that wasn't, that wasn't their concept of minorities. But once it's established that, and, and they don't, they don't really interfere with it. And some of that is because I don't think the Thatcher government really took culture seriously enough to worry about. Um, and I obviously as a cultural historian, I think that's mistaken, but I, I, I, I, I don't think they saw it as, as being in the front ri front rank of, uh, of issues to be tackled.

audioHarryWhite21229905855 16:26

And I suppose you are constrained by your own principles because if you really think, well, we let the market do what it wants to do, then if there is a big market for alternative comedy or, or, or channel four's, uh, less pro fact, right? Sentiments, then you. You have to go with it, don't you?

audioAlwynTurner11229905855 16:46

Indeed, Jess, you've, you've made a big point about, uh, choice being important to, uh, uh, to the people of Britain while they've chosen, some of them have chosen to go in this direction that you don't approve of, but that's in the nature of choice and free will.

audioHarryWhite21229905855 17:02

And you mentioned bandaid. Was that a, a fan of Bandit? I haven't really heard about her re relationship to, to it. I know she talked about kind of Victorian philanthropy and, and that kind of thing, so maybe did she see it as a, as a follow on from that, the modern version of that?

audioAlwynTurner11229905855 17:18

very much, very much so. She met, she met Bob Geldoff, who is the, the founder of Bandaid and Live Aid. Um, she met him to congratulate him. She thought he was doing very good work. I mean, she, she was a woman who believed very passionately in charity, and this was charity. It was not political. She could get on board with it. By contrast, I mean the, the live aid concert was celebrated, um, by, by the government. The, uh, the Nelson Mandela birthday concert at Wembley later in the decade was not celebrated because that was seen as being political.

audioHarryWhite21229905855 17:55

It's hard to imagine Margaret Thatcher, uh, meeting Bob Geldoff. Was it, was there an element of cringe to that as sometimes there is with politicians meeting celebrities?

audioAlwynTurner11229905855 18:04

he, he took the opportunity to, uh, to tell her off, um, and to lecture her on, uh, how the, uh, the European community as it then was, uh, should be doing more. We had, we had issues with food surpluses at this stage. Um, and, and Bob Geldoff believed that, uh, the European community could be doing much more to help with the famine in Ethiopia, which is what the, the whole bandaid live aid project was about.

audioHarryWhite21229905855 18:30

Makes sense. I suppose you have to, don't you if you are, uh, A rebellious musician, you have to at least at some point.

audioAlwynTurner11229905855 18:39

yeah. Gold off came out of it perfectly well. Um, and I think Thatcher did,

audioHarryWhite21229905855 18:48

In your book, which is called Rejoice, rejoice. You say that the conflicting interests of moral and economic liberalism, which is something we've touched on a little bit already within the that right coalition would remain throughout the decade. Could you unpack what that conflict is? A little bit.

audioAlwynTurner11229905855 19:08

I, I, I, I think it goes back to that question of choice. Um, Thatcher believes that consumers should have choice, um, but she is also, uh, very rooted in a 19th century morality. Uh, That, um, that things that there is such a thing as right and wrong, and the problem is if you give people too much choice, they might choose the wrong thing to do. I tend to see it in terms of two big figures who are really important to Margaret Thatcher. One is Rupert Murdoch, who is acquiring new titles. Um, he, he buys the times and the Sunday times in the early years of Margaret Thatcher's period in office and represents naked capitalism, um, anti-union capitalism, the stuff that she agrees with and he supports her very, uh, vociferously. All his newspapers are pro Margaret Thatcher. And so you have that element of the free market. And then on the other side you have the influence of Mary White House, the great moral campaign of the 1960s and seventies who wishes to turn the clock back. And, and, and particularly in terms of broadcasting, thinks that the BBC's responsibility is to promote Christian values. Mary White House has a meeting with Margaret Thatcher when Thatcher is still the leader of the opposition, and Mary White House comes out of it, convinced that she is met her soulmate. And that Margaret Thatcher, she argues later on towards the end of Mary Whitehouse's life in the, in the 1990s, she says that Margaret Thatcher was the, the one prime minister during her entire period of campaigning who was onsite. And that c though, those two strands, um, don't necessarily sit comfortably with each other. And at the end of the 1980s when Rupert Murdoch starts moving into satellite television, With Sky tv, that's when you really see the conflict becoming clear because as far as Murdoch's concerned, there should be no regulation of television, and this is a new form of tv. If there's gonna be regulation, it's gonna have to written from scratch, and he believes that there should not be any state regulation of what he is allowed to broadcast. But the White House tendency within Thatcherism. Obviously believes that it is really, really important. That should be regulation because otherwise they fear it, it won't go into pornography, um, as, as the great symbol of, of where things have gone wrong. from a Murdoch's perspective, yeah, a bit of soft pornography wouldn't have gone a mess. It would've Dr. Driven up, uh, sails of, of sky satellite dishes very comfortably. And so those two things kind of conflict. And, and, and Murdoch says, so because there is regulation introduced for satellite tv. Murdoch says, but this is wrong. Thatcher believes in people having free choice. Why don't they have the choice to watch what they want to watch? And so there's those two separate tendencies of the free market and a, a slightly authoritarian imposition of moral values. But Thatcher has within herself, but they, they are in conflict.

audioHarryWhite21229905855 22:33

It seems to me the social conservatism lost out definitely over the long term, but, but probably over even the shorter term as well to to that economic liberalism. To what extent do you agree with that? Firstly, and then I suppose as a follow on. Do you think Thatcher, was it about paying lip service to that social conservatism, or, or do you think she really felt that she, she failed to deliver on that and, and actually would've wanted to have, have done more, more there.

audioAlwynTurner11229905855 23:04

Yeah, I think, um, her most revealing comment I think was, uh, when she said that economics is only the method, the object is to change the soul. And that was, that was said. I think it was 1981 at the absolute depths of her unpopularity. She was the most hated prime minister since polling began. And she still has this extraordinary ambition that she wishes to change the soul of the nation. I mean, it is, it's admirable and it's in, in its, uh, expectations of what she can achieve. But I think that is genuine. But the problem is, is she got so hung up on the, uh, the, the economics, even though she's not really interested, but the economic concerns that that's the primary job of a government. And lost sight, I think of, of, of the moron campaigning. And, and most of what she attempted to do failed. Um, you know, she, she does genuinely believe it. It is really important to her, but she didn't find a way of, of the state doing anything about it.

audioHarryWhite21229905855 24:10

The other example that sprung to my mind when you were, you were speaking of where the conflict lies is the culture in the city. So financial traders, Uh, making loads of money and then sort of strewing the street of London, you know, champagne bottle in hand. That was an image that was completely against Thatcher's instincts. What wasn't it?

audioAlwynTurner11229905855 24:34

Yes, I think so. But again, the, as you said is a conflict because, um, the, the arrival of non-establishment people into the city of London where it doesn't matter if you've got the, the right school tie and the right regimental tie, the sweeping away of the old. Gentleman's club element of it. That's very much what she does approve of, but not necessarily the amount of Coke that was being snorted by the end of the decade. And the, yeah, the irresponsibility of it in, a, a very specific sense of no sense of responsibility towards society. I don't like the term neoliberalism because it's, it seems to be a bit vague, but if, if it, if it is a thing, I think it's Thatcher with Thatcherism without the moron dimension and without the moron Compass. And Thatcher does have a very strong moral compass. She's a very moral woman and she unleashes forces that don't have the same shared values as her.

audioHarryWhite21229905855 25:34

And I suppose as a politician, it's that you can't always control. Your legacy with, with something like Channel four or, or the, the culture in the city. Once you unleash something Yeah. You, it's interesting to see where it,

audioAlwynTurner11229905855 25:46

Un unintended consequences will always get you.

audioHarryWhite21229905855 25:49

Hmm. You, you suggest that the British public never fully bought into that culture of private interest free enterprise that Thatcher was trying to instill. Could you ex expand on that

audioAlwynTurner11229905855 26:01

it's a difficult one to measure, isn't it? It's, it's, um, you can ask people, the British Social Attitude surveys and various other surveys, ask people about, uh, Their values and, and how that's expressed. And people will always say they want to spend more money on, um, the health, service and education, and then they will go into the voting and into the, uh, voting booths and, and, and cast their vote for somebody who believes the opposite. So you, you, people will say that they believe things and don't necessarily live it out. So it's, it's a difficult thing to measure. But I, I think I would, I would argue from cultural, Trends. The, the biggest sitcom on television, um, for this period is only films and horses, which is rooted entirely in the sense of community. And I know, um, Del Del Trotter is presents himself as a ypi. And it's a caricature and it's a, it's a parody of, but more important than that is the family structure around it. And the, the, the social structure around it. It is still rooted in this idea of, of a shared community. The biggest program of all in the, in this period is, is, uh, by the end of the decade, is East Enders, which again, is, is based around the, the concept of a shared community. Um, however melodramatic it gets, still, I mean, entirely implausible. That there is a, a square in the east end of London where property prices haven't forced out. All the, uh, all the people have lived there for generations, but it is culturally, people are hanging onto the idea of community and society. And Margaret Thatcher's, out of context, quote, there is no such thing as society puts her on the other side in the pub, in the public mind.

audioHarryWhite21229905855 27:56

And what about aristocracy and tradition? Did people hang on to to that culturally? Because I'm thinking of the love still of drama set in country estates, which don't feel that right in, in their mold. Was, was there still a love there?

audioAlwynTurner11229905855 28:15

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it is, um, the 1980s sees the, the, the rise of heritage drama rather spendi in, in films, but also on tv. I mean, you know, brides had revisited and, and, um, the Pav Berlins and, and Jewel in the Crown and so on, on tv. Carrots of fire on the big screen, the. Within all of those, though, there is still a thatcherite tendency, I think. I mean, chariots of far is this massive symbol of the of, of won the luck of British cinema. I mean, partly it's such a big symbol because there's so little competition in British cinema at the time. But, but it's about outsiders. It's about a Jewish athlete and it's about, um, A Christian athlete struggling in, in his case to, to run on a Sunday. Uh, it, it is there, there is a moral dimension to it that, uh, that still feels as if it's that right. And the sense of these outsiders trying to fight an establishment is very much how Margaret Thatcher saw herself.

audioHarryWhite21229905855 29:16

The one that came to mind as well, um, which I think came out a bit after the eighties, but was the film Billy Elliot, which on the. One hand you might see as a rejection of Thatcher because she's the enemy there. But on the other, it's a story about aspiration. It's about someone who has talent and then. Pursues that. And then eventually, I think the end of the film, he's moved to London, uh, which is in the eighties became more and more of a financial center. So is that another one where even in spite of itself, culture that's trying to be anti fatur Right. Sort of leans towards to towards it? You can't escape it in a way.

audioAlwynTurner11229905855 30:02

Yeah, no, I think, I think that's probably right. Right there, there is, obviously, it goes back to that idea of community and a community under siege because it's set during the minor strike. Um, but yeah, it is, it's, it's about a meritocracy. This kid has talent and therefore, uh, the establishment should, should allow him a access.

audioHarryWhite21229905855 30:23

Hmm. Mm-hmm. The, uh, historian Dominic Sandbrook suggests that the economic changes of Thatcherism would've happened anyway without her. Do you buy that?

audioAlwynTurner11229905855 30:37

Um, it's difficult, isn't it? It's, I mean, we're into alternative history. Um, okay. For it not to have happened, I guess we have to pause. Um, The Margaret Thatcher loses the 1979 election. Uh, the Labor Party remains in government. James Callahan remains Prime Minister. At that stage, Margaret Thatcher would've been ceremoniously, dumped as leader of the Conservative party. There was a lot of people in the party, did not trust her. Anyway, she's a woman for God's sake. Um, she certainly didn't go to the right school. She would've been thrown out if she'd lost that election. And replaced by William White Law, I guess would've been the obvious successor who would've been a much more Ient figure. Um, much less concerned with the idea of breaking that post-war consensus. And Callahan, although he'd made that speech and it's, it's said, we are now focused on, on, on, on inflation rather than unemployment, he wouldn't have held to it. In any, to anywhere near the same level that Thatcher did, in Britain, there was also a problem of, um, a huge demographic bge of this, this huge spike in the birth rate in the early 1960s. These were people who were now leaving university, leaving college, leaving school, entering into the workforce. By 19 79, 19 80, those there would've been a massive rise in unemployment because of that. The would've been a recession because of the oil price rise, compounding that North Sea Oil was just starting to come on stream. So therefore, Sterling was now seen in the international money markets as an oil currency, and therefore the, the value of Sterling was high, which obviously makes exports more difficult. So there's a whole load of economic problems that would've happened anyway, that recession would've happened. If James Callahan being Prime Minister, all of that would've happened on his watch. He would not have responded in the same way as Thatcher. He would've, but he would've fallen from power. I mean, undoubtedly, he would then have lost the next election, at which stage William White Law would become Prime Minister. I don't think William White Law would've relentlessly pursued, um, The idea of privatization in the same way anti-union legislation would've been less intense. It would've been different. Maybe by the nineties it would've changed. I mean, because the other big international thing that happens at the end of Thatcher's time is the collapse of communism, which then allows capitalism in the west to to rise and become more self-confident because it doesn't have this. Polar, um, a polar of attraction for other people. There, there's no, there is no alternative to use the Great Thatcher slogan by the nineties. That was true in the early eighties. It was not true. There was an alternative, so may, yeah, I don't know. Maybe those economic changes would've happened, but I think it would've taken at least a decade longer than it did.

audioHarryWhite21229905855 33:59

And the unions was there power always going to be heavily curtailed? Was it a case of just when that struck rather than whether it would, do you think.

audioAlwynTurner11229905855 34:14

Yes, I think I, the, the would've been, there would've been cuts to that, to the, uh, essentially the legal indemnities enjoyed by. Trade unions, um, you know, I mean the, the, the Labor Party had tried to do so back in the late sixties within place of strife. Um, they knew then Barbara Castle, who was a very great politician, knew that there was a problem and she understood that the, the best solution to this would be a labor government that was friendly towards the trade unions coming to a, a deal that would, that they could live with. Um, they chose not to live with it and ended up with Margaret Thatcher's version of Union Reform. Instead, there would've been union reform. Um, not necessarily to the same extent, and I don't, I mean, the other thing with unions is the absolute peak of union membership was 1979. It's very, nearly 50% of the workforce was unionized, and it's, it is been falling ever since. Would that have fallen even without Thatcher? I suspect it probably would.

audioHarryWhite21229905855 35:26

Is, was it to do the, the fallen unions with a growth of individualism? And I'm thinking of the aspirational classes. So that move from maybe being in towns and cities, to the, to the suburbs, having your own drive, your own car, all of that was, how does that come in, into the, into the eighties and was there a, a culture around that,

audioAlwynTurner11229905855 35:50

yeah, I, I, I think so. The, the appeal of Thatcher. To a large extent was that she was seen as being the voice of the suburbs. She was just an ordinary suburban woman. I mean, not quite, because she's married to a millionaire, which, which does kind of help. Um, but she represents, I say it's, it's a populist thing of, of there is an establishment that ne that is, and, and if the country is going wrong, then it's, the establishment is clearly responsible and needs to be changed. And people by the, the mid late seventies, were seeing trade unions as part of the establishment. They were part of the problem that had to be overcome. I think that's, that was there. And as you say, there's a certain, uh, psychological shift that says, you know, um, I'm interested in looking after my, my own concerns. The collective is no longer serving me.

audioHarryWhite21229905855 36:47

So turning to post the 1980s, what are some of the big ways that the 1980s. Are still present with us today.

audioAlwynTurner11229905855 37:00

In economic terms, the continuation of Thatcher's thinking inflation is still the enemy, not unemployment. And we, we have come to live with very high levels of unemployment. Um, even now they are higher than we would've accepted. I think probably the biggest shift of all is the shift from income tax to indirect tax, and nobody has attempted to change that. Um, the, oh, no, there was the one attempt in 1992, the Labor Party went into the election saying that, um, for those who who are earning above average wages, there will be an increase in taxation in income tax. And it was so, so thoroughly rejected that they abandoned the idea. And nobody is talking about going back to the old rates of taxation. And it's, it's. Both the major parties compete to say we wish to cut income tax, but Thatcher is not anti-tax. She's just anti income tax. Um, and everything is then loaded onto indirect taxes and sales tax, particularly v a t obviously, which was what, eight, 8%. When Thatcher came into power, she doubled, nearly, doubled it to 15% and are now running a 20%. That that has just become so embedded. That shift in, in how we take tax?

audioHarryWhite21229905855 38:26

What are some of the indirect taxes I'm a bit less familiar with, with what they would be?

audioAlwynTurner11229905855 38:31

well, it's, it's, it's, it's the, uh, all, all the duties on, on tobacco and alcohol and petrol. Um, in addition to V A T, which is the biggest of all of them, um, there are shifts that you can make in terms of, of, um, capital gains tax. Um, there, there's. The old, the old idea of taxation is that income tax is the main thing and still remains. So it is still the biggest of them. And so therefore that's where you load things because that is seen as being, um, a progressive tax. You, you pay it if you can afford to. We,

audioHarryWhite21229905855 39:09

flipped then? Income tax was seen as a negative because it's a tax on aspiration.

audioAlwynTurner11229905855 39:15

yes, and it reduces consumer choice. You have more of your money to, to decide where you wish to spend it, every way you wish to spend it. We're gonna tax you on it, but you do at least have the choice of these things. So those that, that, that, that has become, as I say, absolutely embedded in political thinking, nobody is challenging that. The privatization of state owned industries remains. I mean, people talk about bringing some, some aspects of it back into state ownership. Um, I, I mean there, I think there is popular support for the idea of the railways water. Maybe gas and electricity. I don't think anybody's seriously suggesting that the state should be running our telecommunications anymore. Um, but some of those may change, but they haven't done. It's, it's noticeable that, that, that this has not happened. Um,

audioHarryWhite21229905855 40:07

But, but it's also noticeable, isn't it? That your, your point that the, the public never quite fully brought into the idea of complete free markets private enterprise. When something does go wrong with one of those big enterprises, um, Rail BT water, it is still seen that there's something that the government should do. There's some collective societal responsibility, isn't there?

audioAlwynTurner11229905855 40:33

Yeah. Abely, I think that's true. The, the, they are in a different category too. Um, I know Marks and Spencers having bad results or what, whatever or prices going up in, in Saintsbury that, that's not considered to be the government's responsibility. But you're right. When it's, when it's the big utilities that is seen as being, somehow the government still has a responsibility, even if we don't own it.

audioHarryWhite21229905855 40:57

What about John Major? Do you think he did carry the torch of Thatcherism or was there a shift?

audioAlwynTurner11229905855 41:06

Um, there is a shift, but there always is. I mean, as it goes back to your point about, um, one period being a re rejection of an earlier of the, of the previous period, um, I, you get that with Prime Ministers. a noisy prime minister is followed by a quieted one. Um, and John Major was very much the quiet man. Um, and then there's the conflict over Europe, which is a whole separate issue, um, where Thatcher comes into direct, uh, conflict with him. But those things remain. I, I probably, the single most positive thing that Thatcher ever did was to talk about the environment. She's the first major world leader to really talk about climate change as a ma, as as, as a serious problem. And she does so because, um, she is the only sci, the only prime minister we've ever had who has a science degree. She does actually know how to read scientific reports in a way that, um, p p e graduates, bless them, don't always, she was very serious about it. She, to some extent, she rode back in, in the last years of her life, of her, of her public life. But when she was in office, she was the one who, who, who did make an issue of it, and

audioHarryWhite21229905855 42:29

and in

audioAlwynTurner11229905855 42:29

may.

audioHarryWhite21229905855 42:29

was, was there a tension even then that there is now between if you believe fully in free Mar the free market, then what role does a state have to curtail environmental damage? Was that a concern for her?

audioAlwynTurner11229905855 42:47

I don't think it was because I think she saw the environmental damage as being the crucial issue. Um, and it started with, um, The, the, the hole in the ozone layer, which was the big story of the late, late eighties, and largely because of Margaret Thatcher. It was a big story. She had, she had had reports. Margaret Thatcher was incredibly loyal to the people that she liked and that she approved of. And in the buildup to the Fulks war, the British Antarctic survey were very helpful in providing information about the terrain and the conditions in the South Atlantic. So she always had a great deal of respect for the British Antarctic survey. Thereafter, they, they had no problems with their funding and they were the ones who first discovered the or or made public the idea that there was a hole in the ozone layer that was potentially catastrophic to the, uh, to the environment. And because it was them who were saying so, and because she could read scientific reports, she took it very seriously and she saw it as being an issue that meant this is what government was for. It's not that cuz she didn't believe that the state shouldn't exist. She was a believer in the state and in government. It's just there were jobs that it was supposed to do. Um, and one of those was protecting the environment. Um, and, and, and, you know, defense is another, there are things that it should be doing. I have a suspicion that this may yet be regarded as her greatest contribution to Britain is, uh, the person who took, uh, environmental concerns seriously.

audioHarryWhite21229905855 44:26

Which is interesting because probably no one at the time would've seen that as the most visible element of Thatcher and Thatcherism,

audioAlwynTurner11229905855 44:36

No.

audioHarryWhite21229905855 44:36

and I suppose it's a reflection of, we said, sometimes I. What you want to be your legacy is, is twisted in a way that that wasn't what you intended. Whether it's the sort of reader's good culture and then actually things that you might not have expected to be your, your biggest legacy actually does become important.

audioAlwynTurner11229905855 44:56

Yeah. No things. Things can look very different.

audioHarryWhite21229905855 44:58

So we are coming towards the end. Is there anything we didn't touch on that you'd like to, to pick up? Anything we missed?

audioAlwynTurner11229905855 45:08

Um, I guess in focusing on Thatcher, I. We maybe neglect slightly the other great figure of the 1980s in British politics. Who's Ken Livingston? Um, whose time at the G L C, which only lasted for a few years is almost as influential in shaping Britain because he's the one who, who, that that whole business of, uh, minorities now being a political category. It's Livingston who, who popularizes the idea that, uh, the politics needs to incorporate issues of, of, uh, of, of civil, black, civil rights, of, of women's, uh, the women's movement of gay rights and so on. That whole, um, social liberalism is really very much, uh, part of the legacy of the 1980s. That's still very powerful now. And so in, in some extent, I think Thatcher wins the economic argument. And Ken Livingston wins the social argument.

audioHarryWhite21229905855 46:13

And would you trace a line from Ken Livingston to Jeremy Corbin, or is that pushing it too far?

audioAlwynTurner11229905855 46:20

No, no. Very, very closely associated. They were from the outset. They, they, they worked together. Um, Ken Livingston's, uh, bid to become the leader of the G L C was, uh, Largely shaped by Jeremy Corbin who was working on that campaign. Um, they are very much part of the, uh, the same, the same culture.

audioHarryWhite21229905855 46:43

Fantastic. Well, I've really enjoyed this conversation and we'd be very happy to have you on the podcast again. I'm gonna be reading, your book on the 1990s. Uh, so thanks so much again, Alan, for joining us.

47:01

I also wants to take a quick moment, say thank you to those listening as well. I've got a few more interviews that I'm preparing. And we'll line up episodes for those. I really hope you tune in next time for some more. Modern british political history thanks so much