118. Dealing with Perfectionism, Interview with Melissa Dinwiddie, part 3

“If you are having fun and you're playing and you're experimenting, it is all gonna feed into what you're doing.”
-- Melissa Dinwiddie

In this How To Write the Future episode, “Dealing with Perfectionism, Interview with Melissa Dinwiddie, part 3” podcast host Beth Barany wraps up her interview with former professional artist and trained improviser, Melissa Dinwiddie, where they discuss the importance of setting “ridiculously achievable” goals to help you succeed in your creative practice and how to find a supportive writing environment.

Listen to parts 1 and 2 of the interview where Melissa shares her journey about how she became an artist and where together Beth and Melissa demonstrate a two-person game you can play to loosen up and get creative.


About Melissa Dinwiddie

A former professional artist and trained improviser and jazz singer, Melissa Dinwiddie helps senior tech leaders increase their influence and reduce conflict by helping their teams communicate and connect better so their work has impact across the organization, all through her F.U.N. Method™. She designs interactive, playful programs that attendees rave about because they acquire new skills and behaviors and build connections while having a blast. Her book, The Creative Sandbox Way™, has been called "essential for the bookshelf," "the owner's guide for the caring and feeding of the creative spirit," and "an adventure packaged as a book.”

https://creativesandbox.solutions/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/a_creative_life/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melissadinwiddie/

Ready to harness the power of improv to take your leaders and HiPo’s to the next level? Evaluate where your team stands with Melissa’s Leadership Assessment Tool 👉https://bit.ly/LeadershipAssessmentTool


RESOURCES

Bring Improv to Your Life, Interview with Melissa Dinwiddie, Part 1

https://writersfunzone.com/blog/2024/09/02/bring-improv-to-your-life-interview-with-melissa-dinwiddie-part-1/

Let's Play A Game, Interview with Melissa Dinwiddie, Part 2

https://writersfunzone.com/blog/2024/09/09/lets-play-a-game-interview-with-melissa-dinwiddie-part-2/

Get your own free World Building Workbook for Fiction Writers: https://writersfunzone.com/blog/world-building-resources/

• SHOW PRODUCTION BY Beth Barany
• CO-PRODUCTION + SHOW NOTES by Kerry-Ann McDade

c. 2024 BETH BARANY

https://bethbarany.com/

--
CONNECT
Contact Beth: https://writersfunzone.com/blog/podcast/#tve-jump-185b4422580
Email: beth@bethbarany.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bethbarany/

CREDITS
EDITED WITH DESCRIPT: https://get.descript.com/0clwwvlf6e3j
MUSIC: Uppbeat.io
DISTRIBUTED BY BUZZSPROUT: https://www.buzzsprout.com/?referrer_id=1994465

Transcript

BETH BARANY: 0:01

I'm your host, Beth Barany. I am an award-winning science fiction and fantasy novelist, writing teacher, creativity coach, and I run this podcast because I believe with science fiction and fantasy stories, we can reshape the world. And my focus is on positive, optimistic stories because what we vision, what we actually envision in our stories, we can help make so in the world. Welcome back to my conversation with Melissa Dinwiddie. If you miss parts one and two, please go back and take a listen. So how can we relate some of these tools or what you've said and shared about being improvisational, about playing with groups, about doing experiments? How can we bring that to writers who want to play with writing positive, optimistic futures? Or explore with new ways of being human, essentially is what we're trying to do? And how do we orient our stories in a way that opens up new ways of thinking and new ways of being? That's what I'm exploring in my work, and I know others listening want that too. So whether it's Thrutopia or Solar Punk or Hope Punk or however, all the new names, where it's not a dystopia; it's not a utopia, but we're writing stories that try to describe the changes of humanity or that maybe the changes already happened and we're maybe including somehow it came to be, or dropping hints here and there. Star Trek didn't talk about how it became that kind of world, but they did drop little hints here and there, and then they related to each other a little differently than other societies. Anyway, all that to say, I am curious what we can take from our discussion today and apply it to writers who are exploring basically the edges and bringing in more hope and bringing more optimism into the worlds they're creating.

MELISSA DINWIDDIE: 1:43

Yeah. I love what you were just sharing about the practices that you have, Beth?

BETH BARANY: 1:49

Yeah.

MELISSA DINWIDDIE: 1:49

To playing with your writing.

BETH BARANY: 1:51

Yeah.

MELISSA DINWIDDIE: 1:51

Playing with your husband, with words and Hello Kitty and playing with your writing. And I think that the more playful that we can be. Oh my God, look at you. I'm looking over at the poster I have on my wall of my Creative Sandbox guideposts. Number Six is Ask What If. And you know that's my favorite place to be as. As just as a human, that's the space of creativity. Gee, what would happen? What if, what if we did this? What if we did that? What if we turned right instead of turning left? I actually use that in keynotes is: what if my character turned right instead of turning left? So anytime you get into a place in your writing where there's an opportunity for a character to go through this sliding door instead of that sliding door or whatever. Play with that. And see what would happen. You have opportunities to write innumerable crappy first drafts, right? So just take a little wandering exploration and play with that and see what happens. And write a little backstory or whatever. And it may never get used in the final draft, but it doesn't matter because you're playing, you're experimenting. And nothing is wasted in the creative process. So if you are having fun and you're playing and you're experimenting, it is all gonna feed into what you're doing.

BETH BARANY: 3:13

I love that you say nothing is wasted. One of my students asked me that today. They said, if I write something and I never show it with anyone, is that okay?'cause he's very oriented toward like production and be in the world with his work. And he is a young writer. He is in his mid twenties. And so I'm like, yeah, it absolutely is not lost. You're writing what you wanna say, you're experimenting with your own voice. You're saying it because you need to say it. Nothing is wasted. It feels like maybe it's because of the social media world or something that people have this misconception that everything created has to perform a function out in the world.

MELISSA DINWIDDIE: 3:49

Yeah.

BETH BARANY: 3:50

And it can get in the way of just learning how to put your true thoughts and feelings on the page, which is itself its own exercise, and it needs to be done in a very private space. So I just said, this is your walled garden. This is your place for you, and that's okay. And he was relieved, but he was also: oh, like what a new concept because he's been so outward focused. The degree and finish school and you know what other people want and need because that is actually a bit easier, right? To answer the call from somebody else. That actually could be where the edge is, where it's the riskiest place where you're actually showing up for yourself in a way that, I don't know, society doesn't really--. There's no dialogue around that. People aren't talking about that, but that's so important-- what happens in the privacy of your own heart.

MELISSA DINWIDDIE: 4:39

I have so many thoughts and feelings about that because I feel like it is so important to have that walled garden and it is also important for creatives, for creators to share our work. It's important to have both. We have to have that safety of being able to create something where we don't have to worry about judgment from other people, because Lord knows we have enough judgment from those gremlins at our head. And we have to learn how to dance with that because it is just so important that we have the eye of the wise editor who can help us see with, like taking off the gremlin glasses and putting on the glasses that we can see with wisdom to, to understand. We have to look with taste to be able to edit and refine and improve on our work. We have to be able to do that. We have to have that editorial voice or perspective. Yeah. And also, we have to be able to create freely so that the editor doesn't shut us down from creating. Now, when I was a working artist, when I was a professional artist, everything that I made was very planned and plotted and meticulously designed in advance, sketched out to the nth degree. And then I would execute it separately from the original, designing it out very meticulously and carefully. There was very little room for improvisation. Very tiny little room for improvisation. And it was stifling. And now the way that I work is almost as a, as an artist, the work that I make, artistically is purely for my own joy. People can buy my work, but I don't take art directed commissions. Let's put it that way. You can commission me to do something, but no, I don't take art direction and everything I do is almost a hundred percent, not entirely a hundred percent, but almost a hundred percent. I do some. I draw people and stuff like that, but most of the work that I do, like visual art, is abstract. And improvisational. I write songs and some of the songs that I write are improvisational, but the songs, those are very crafted and puzzled out and everything. But the visual art is almost entirely improvisational, and that is intentional because I had to heal myself from being so burned out from the, like over perfectionism and everything. And and I know some people are so afraid of sharing their work that they go the other direction and never share anything. I made a decision years ago to share everything that I was creating, like whatever I was creating in-process."I think this is a piece of crap, but I'm gonna share the in-process stuff. Just gonna snap a picture and put it on Instagram." Not with the intention of getting, this frozen need for validation, but because it's a practice of:"I'm putting my work out there and I'm letting it go." For me that was really a game changer because I was able to let it go, I then noticed that strangers were clicking the Like button. And it enabled me to take off my gremlin glasses and put on their neutral glasses and see my work through their eyes and see that if somebody else can value the work that I thought was a piece of crap, then there must be value in that work. And it enabled me to have a different perspective for it. However, if I had put the work out there with the need for validation, then putting it out there would not have been helpful at all. So it's a mindset thing.

BETH BARANY: 8:44

Yeah, I love that. I love that. I've met writers who are stalled out on their work because they've never shared it with anyone. They haven't heard other points of view, and they don't know what's working and what's not working. And then they wonder why they're not able to move forward. And so there's an art there in learning how to find a safe space to get feedback on their work. And then some people share their work and then wonder why they get negative feedback and don't realize that they're actually sharing it, like you said, for validation when that crowd over there is actually not very trustworthy to be giving you the kind of supportive feedback you want. So it's an interesting dance. I know with writers, I encourage folks to write out what they really need in a supportive writing environment. And then just hold the line and ask for that and talk to people that you resonate with or get advice.'cause there are a lot of resources out there on where to get feedback. From editors that you pay, or a group mentorship program like mine, or peer groups that are free that involve exchange. And when they're young, I notice writers don't realize that they might be walking into a hornet's nest. Yeah. And that a lot of people seem to think it's okay to be negative to writers and make it personal. And a lot of people dunno how to give appropriate feedback. I had to learn. We all had to learn. And a lot of us don't grow up in households where feedback is done in a very nice way. And so we know how to do the very critical pointed owie kind of feedback. And children just pick it up. I was very lucky in my first critique group where I learned later on, like they're using, I think it was called the Amherst style or something. It would always be very supportive, like: Oh, I really like this, and over here, you're missing this part in your writing. It was always the narrator or the protagonist. It was never you, the writer. It was never pointed at the writer. It was always pointed at the writing and it was always supportive. It was always like:"Oh, this is working and you're missing this part."

MELISSA DINWIDDIE: 10:37

Yeah.

BETH BARANY: 10:38

It was like: Oh, I didn't know I needed to have that part. Good to know. Something to learn. And so as we wrap up for today-- when you go into running events in the corporate environment, how do you create a culture of safety, where it's safe to play and it's safe to explore and be in the unknown? How do you set that up?

MELISSA DINWIDDIE: 10:55

Yeah, it is such a big question. So the first thing that I do, I have to have buy-in from my point of contact, the manager, the director, whoever is setting the whole thing up. And we have to have a really clear communication around that. And the communication that I have before I meet the team, the email correspondence that I have with them-- I send communication with them via email. I send them a video. So they start to get to know me a little bit that way. I set up what the expectations are, if it's gonna be like on Zoom or something. Then I establish with the manager, the director, what the expectations are in terms of cameras on, that kind of thing. That really makes a big difference. And then I scaffold my sessions so that I'm not expecting people to suddenly get really vulnerable and disclose all sorts of personal things right off the bat. I start off with connection activities that don't require a lot of vulnerability, but invite connection and get people gradually connecting with each other in ways that invite them to open up slowly. So that they feel safe in the amount that they're invited to connect and open up with each other. So that by the time they're invited to be a little bit more vulnerable. It doesn't feel like it's something that they're having to dive into the deep end of a pool without learning how to swim. So it's a very gradual stepping up and stepping up, that I put a lot of thought into as I design my sessions. Yeah.

BETH BARANY: 12:41

I love that. And I think it's a great takeaway for anybody, listening, watching is: you don't need to sit down and write your novel today. All you need to do is set your timer for five minutes, and if you've never written before, just write for five minutes what's in your heart, and just make it very contained, easy, safe, fun. And then gradually the next day add in a few more minutes until you're now writing maybe 20 minutes at a time. And I really encourage folks to be hungry for more. Leave the session saying: Oh, maybe tomorrow I could do a little bit more. Oh, that was really fun. Oh, tomorrow maybe we can build on that. And I even do that. When I have had a break and I break a lot. Like just recently I was sick, so I just did the first writing session was 10 minutes.'cause that felt doable. The next writing session was 20 minutes and after that I'm like, okay, got it. I'm back in the groove. I love 20 minutes. That's my favorite. So I love how you scaffold that. And it's something people can take into their own creative work as well: is today is a small, and tomorrow we add a little bit more, and every day it's doable, and every day it's fun and it's easy and it opens them up just a little bit. We're not running a marathon today. Today is just walk around the block.

MELISSA DINWIDDIE: 13:48

I love that. Yeah. When I think about my commitment to my creative practice or any kind of practice, whatever it is, I like to think in terms of ridiculously achievable. So because, and I know different people have different philosophies about this, but I feel like if it's too much of a stretch, then I end up not achieving it, and I feel like a failure. And I feel like it's like a pole vaulting bar that I'm expecting myself to leap over without a running start and without a pole. But if I can make it ridiculously achievable that I can't fail, like I can't not succeed at it. It's like taking that bar all the way down to the ground so I can just go B and I can just like hop right over it. So you know whether that's 20 minutes or 10 minutes or two minutes, whatever it is that makes it so easy that I want to do it, and it feels really like yummy and juicy and good and fun. That's what we want.

BETH BARANY: 14:50

Absolutely. Absolutely. I love that. I love how you're bringing this into the corporate environment that really I believe needs it. And, I wanna just say thank you so much, Melissa, for being here today. I feel like we could go on and on. And do more exercises and that would be so much fun. So thank you. Thank you so much for being here. And if people wanna check you out, check out your work, where can they go?

MELISSA DINWIDDIE: 15:11

My business website is Creative sandbox.solutions. You can find me there and you can find me on LinkedIn, Melissa Dinwiddie on LinkedIn, and I'm also at melissadinwiddie.com. And you can find me on Instagram. My handle there is at A underscore CreativeLife.

BETH BARANY: 15:33

Great. Perfect. And we'll definitely be linking to all of that in our show description, in the notes for everyone to follow you. So thank you so much again for being a guest at How to Write the Future podcast, and I look forward to the next conversation. I would love to have you back and do another conversation with you about all these wonderful ideas and talk more about creativity and the future and all that good stuff.

MELISSA DINWIDDIE: 15:54

Thank you so much, Beth. I'd be happy to come back anytime. This was so fun.

BETH BARANY: 15:58

Oh good. Thanks. Thank you so much for listening to this episode with Melissa Dinwiddie and be sure to check out parts one and two. And be sure to follow Melissa and check out her links. That's it for this week for How To Write The Future podcast. Write long and prosper.