Note: Podcast transcription edited to improve readability.
Thierry Bruyneel: 0:04
It is all about speed nowadays, and co-creation is tremendously important and therefore we want to give, give, give, and make sure in fact that communities are flourishing. And it is only then that we create prosperity. So that is why we are part of XR Valley.
Desiree Timmermans: 0:21
Hey everybody. Thank you so much for checking out the podcast: XR Valley Talk, where we engage in conversations with leading Belgian voices in Extended Reality.
In this kickoff episode Jelle Demanet, Co-founder of XR Valley, as well as Manager HIT Lab at HoWest and I, Desiree Timmermans, your podcast host, have a conversation with Thierry Bruyneel, Partner Ventures by Delaware, and Nick Thienpondt, Delaware Department Manager and Microsoft Alliance Lead.
We talk about the importance of building a strong Belgian XR ecosystem and the Delaware XR customer case: Antwerp Maritime Academy.
Let's begin.
Thierry, Nick, Jelle, welcome to the first episode of the XR Valley Talk podcast. We are very happy that you are our first guests. And Jelle, thanks for co-hosting.
So Thierry, let's start with the first question. Why is XR Valley important, and why are you a member of it?
Thierry Bruyneel: 1:26
With Delaware, we are strong believers that alone is just alone. I think we need to work and collaborate in ecosystems. It's all about speed nowadays, and co-creation is tremendously important, and therefore we want to give, give, give, and make sure, in fact, that communities are flourishing. And it's only then that we create prosperity. So that's why we are part of XR Valley.
Desiree Timmermans: 1:49
So actually, what you are saying is that building the ecosystem within Belgium is very important.
Thierry Bruyneel: 1:54
Yes, definitely. The coalition of the willing and the coalition of the believers form a strong front, in fact, and can develop things together and make some noise around it, like via this podcast. So thank you for that.
Jelle Demanet: 2:05
I think we need very good business cases as well so that companies know that there will be a return on investment if they invest in this technology. Do you have strong business cases?
Thierry Bruyneel: 2:14
We have a process where we work together with customers in an 'outside-in way' to structurally ideate, identify the space. So we also put figures to that. Because you can identify an anomaly or an opportunity in a process, but then the frequency and volumes need to be significant to make sure that the ROI is clearly there. Technology is just a means for appliances that really have significant impact on the total process and profit and loss.
Jelle Demanet: 2:43
A lot of initiatives are now going on to start building platforms. But it is more scalable because end-user companies are investing a lot in VR? Where do you think the scalability will come from? Will it come from platforms, or will it come from one-to-one work like you are doing with your clients, or is it a combination of both?
Thierry Bruyneel: 3:00
It's a combination of both, Jelle. If you have to reinvent the wheel the moment the question comes about the wheel, it is probably more interesting that you already have a wheel or a template of a wheel somewhere available.
We encourage building platforms with products or appliances already on them. If possible, already industrialized. So, that means it could be good if training is already tailored according to the industry's expectations, e.g., food, utilities, and automotive. They have specific characteristics.
It is important that the platforms are there. The only problem that we need to do, and that's why I think XR Valley can accelerate us all, is creating the ecosystem and making sure that the molecules are getting closer together and that they are meeting each other because it's then only that matchmaking is possible and real business comes into play.
Jelle Demanet: 3:48
That is clear. If we join forces in XR Valley, we can convince more end users of the potential of the technology. Another question: is it a piece of the puzzle that you can collaborate with other content creators, XR developers, or technology companies to achieve your goals?
Thierry Bruyneel: 4:05
There is a scarcity of talent that is clear. So, we have learned with Delaware that we cannot do it all. Since many years, we collaborate with schools and universities. Sometimes what they are missing is an understanding of an industry or a process. We bring that to those communities with pleasure so that the techie guys can start developing according to our promises. So it is really an ecosystem working. We have done that in the water industry and the potato industry. And we are now very happy to be part of the XR Valley ecosystem as well.
Jelle Demanet: 4:37
I think the role of a bigger company like yours is, indeed, to link content to a bigger system like a learning management system. For example, if you have a VR training, the skills you then train, you also have to register them and link them to other courses or programs your employees are following. You have, I think, insights into the bigger picture of the learning process. From my perspective, that's also a big role that you can play.
Nick Thienpondt: 4:59
First, we also have to make sure that all companies or people see XR not as a gimmick anymore. And XR will be, in the future, an extension of our digital contact: how we interact with it. It will be our classical 2D environment that we see but then replaced with 3D, with a 360-degree view. We need to show everybody that this will become the next thing. Let's even make the bridge toward the metaverse. There are all things that we need to empower.
At a second point, like you said, we have the knowledge for complex backend systems, and it's something that we can put forward and show how it can be done. And then, of course, not just to keep it under our umbrella but to keep it under the community and show how we can empower them all. Because there is more than enough work in extended reality: it still needs to happen.
Thierry Bruyneel: 5:47
When we are going to innovation sessions with customers, I acknowledge that the evangelization part still needs to happen. And we see that not only in the XR space but even in AI, although it has been widely adopted, and also in robotics.
Customers who are in the day-to-day job are not aware. We are techies, and we think that everybody else knows what it's all about. It's not the case. Let's say 1 on 10 that we meet in organizations are fully aware of the level of maturity that XR has already reached. So, we need to demonstrate. We bring in the process- and the customer knowledge. But also the awareness about the technology that it is closer than they think and that it is easily accessible, but also, affordable. These three elements are important to bring via business cases and use cases. Because a lot of people still think that it is a dream which is not reachable. It's not the case. It's very close by. And we need to approach these things closer to the buyers and the beneficiaries. There is still a gap to fill, and we need to evangelize. So, I think, XR Valley is a very nice initiative to accommodate that.
Desiree Timmermans: 7:01
Thierry, for my understanding, do you also have a kind of experience center where customers can come and see how it works and what it can do to help them solve their problems?
Thierry Bruyneel: 7:12
Yes, we have. I do know that we are building one in Kortrijk. There will be one in Ghent as well. But, we also have our experience center on tour. So we have a factory that is traveling and is demonstrating IoT. And also, there, the XR experiences can be coupled. So we do that a lot. It's a bus, in fact, where we bring those technologies in-house because people do not always come easily outside and go to these experience centers. And yes, it helps if they can touch it and see it happening, working in a kind of demo and maybe experience it: you have a breakthrough, and people loosen up and start seeing the benefits of it.
Desiree Timmermans: 7:48
Yes, it becomes much more concrete. And do you have a nice example of a customer whom you went to, and that became enthusiastic?
Thierry Bruyneel: 7:55
Two years ago, we had an innovation session for a large industrial company. We did some tech discovery. The employees come and get to know new technology they have never seen. And based on that, we went into workshops. And you see, their minds opened up, and the creativity was much higher than we expected.
It is like you would ask people to create a tremendous pie. They would not know what to do. But if you show them the ingredients and give them sugar, butter, and milk, they start thinking about what they can do with it. And I'm a strong believer that it is not only when you shout to the ingredients that it becomes a pie. No, you have to do something with the ingredients to make the pie. And there is the art. And do things together, techies, business people, students, and experts. We have to mingle up and put all pieces around the table, and something very nice comes out.
Desiree Timmermans: 8:46
Okay, thanks for that.
Jelle Demanet: 8:48
I think I have something to add. Currently, we are living in XR at two speeds. So we have the big potential for the future and the metaverse, and we have what already exists. And I think we should stress that what is already existing, it's already happening. So people sometimes think: okay, it's nice to have a demo, and it is a gimmick, but it is something for the future. I think with our members at XR Valley, we also have to show that it is already happening.
There are already very nice use cases and business cases that really make a difference today. Because I sometimes have the impression that, like in healthcare with hospitals, they want to dream about the future, but they can make decisions right now already to implement it. And the metaverse is, therefore, not always helping the process. Because it promises a whole world that will be digital in the future, but that's not necessary: apply the applications already today. And that's something we have to emphasize. And that is why people, indeed, have to experience and try the technology and applications already built today: to be convinced and invest in it now. And then, it will speed up the whole process.
Thierry Bruyneel: 9:53
I agree. The metaverse might be the evolution too fast to create the adoption of the existing, which is already tremendous. We are early adopters, so we have the use cases. And yes, we need to go on tour. I think that, together with XR Valley, we can do tremendous work of evangelization.
Desiree Timmermans: 10:09
So Thierry, how do you see the future of XR? Where will we be within 3 to 5 years?
Thierry Bruyneel: 10:14
I think it will become the new normal — just part of our day-to-day living and working space. So 3 to 5 years, I would rather say 5 years: it will be on every industrial floor, in every household. It will be everywhere. I'm sure.
Jelle Demanet: 10:29
A related question: at what companies are we looking to help us with the adoption? Cause if you want to bring this technology into all households, you need to have big companies investing in hardware that makes that possible. So what Meta is doing is helping the business. Or do you disagree?
Nick Thienpondt: 10:46
No, I agree. If you see the relation now, like Microsoft is doing together in a partnership with Meta: that's a nice example of making sure and pushing the economic situation and the benefits towards more and more devices. For example, the OnePlus. A lot of people have this phone because the price and quality are quite okay for them. If those hardware suppliers give headsets or put headsets on the market at lower prices, you will start to see them everywhere. It is now still feeling expensive. Though it is already more payable than in the early days: If you see a Quest for above 500 euros, even less. Then it is already getting better: but not at the price where everybody would buy it, to have just XR available.
Desiree Timmermans: 11:30
Okay. I propose we deep dive into one of the cases: Maritime Academy in Antwerp. So, Nick, you worked on that: can you tell us more about it?
Nick Thienpondt: 11:39
It all started with the business case. They teach students how to become a captain or other roles on a ship. Their problem is: how to give the possibility to people to train on ships like chemical tankers. How do they do it today? Well, you have the possibility, once or twice, to train on a real ship because on a chemical tanker: it is not possible. And then we said: okay, but why don't we look into the training example within virtual reality? They were quite enthusiastic.
And then we took one case, and that is a lifeboat. I call it the lifesaving application because letting a live boat down in the water is one of the most important procedures. Because when something happens, you always have people that need to get off-board, and you always have people that do not have the procedures in their mind on how to do it. That were the ones that we used to show what is possible.
Desiree Timmermans: 12:31
And as an end-user, can you take me through the steps?
Nick Thienpondt: 12:34
So as a student, you can choose to put on a headset or use your tablet or desktop device. But the most fun way is to put on the headset. And then you come into an application where first a step-by-step procedure explanation will happen: how do you need to work with the joysticks, to what do I need to look, what are the possible steps in my application? And then you can say: okay, I want to start training. And you walk around in the environment of the school.
At the Antwerp Maritime Academy, they have one place where it is possible to release a lifeboat. So we revamped that environment in virtual reality. You really feel like you are at school because you see the school and the outdoors, and you can even walk towards the lifeboat where you can release it.
Desiree Timmermans: 13:20
So it is a digital twin.
Nick Thienpondt: 13:22
It is a digital twin. If you want to do all the steps, then it really helps you. You have an avatar next to you. If you want to start a procedure, make sure you do all the necessary steps. It proposes that you train in exercise or modification notification modes. So we have several modes to train yourself. But also to test you on: do you know, without any help or extra feedback, how you need to release that lifeboat?
Important here is that when you are in Extended Reality or VR for a B2B, it is one-on-one training. Normally, when you're in a class, you have like 20 students, 30 students, and one or two teachers, mostly one. And then it's like a 1-on-20 or 1-on-30 training. In this case, you really have a 1-on-1 experience where you also see: how do I need to release certain components on a lifeboat, and how do I need to do it? The avatar says: this is the component; you need to release it like this. You need to do the right things to fulfill the training.
Desiree Timmermans: 14:28
As a student, you get more direct feedback: what is going well and what is not. And if I understand you, then the program adjusts to that.
Nick Thienpondt: 14:37
Indeed. Because it is also in that way that we capture: what you do right, what you do first, to what you look first or do not look first. Because, let's say a ship is going to sink; you need to get yourself off the boat and release the lifeboat. Then it is very important that you - as a person - do the right steps in the right order. We are able to train them and say: you looked first to that point. But when something is wrong, this is the first step you need to take. So we capture feedback that is not possible in a classical way.
Desiree Timmermans: 15:11
That brings something else up for me because you are collecting all this data. How do you use that, considering the GDPR?
Nick Thienpondt: 15:18
It is a fully compliant environment linked to the organization itself. As Delaware, we don't have access to the data. We make sure that the data won't be spread. So that is the basis of the application. And then, we went one step further: the link with our learning management system. Here you can log on to a web application and see which training you can follow: what were the results of your training; what are the steps you did during the training?
Jelle Demanet: 15:47
Is it then a small step to link this training also to certifications?
Nick Thienpondt: 15:50
Of course, certifications like for Antwerp Maritime Academy, though you still need real-life training. It is not that we say: we want to replace real-life training with VR or XR training. The only thing we push forward here is that we can do like 80% of the repetitive training with XR and then the rest of the 20% with real-life training.
Desiree Timmermans: 16:12
Virtual real-life experiences help you with real-life experiences.
Jelle Demanet: 16:18
Yes, especially in procedural tasks where the order is important and where you have to know where things are.
Desiree Timmermans: 16:23
And what were the lessons learned, Nick, from this case with Antwerp Maritime Academy?
Nick Thienpondt: 16:30
One thing we remember very well is that you are building a training and experience for people. You do not just build one procedure and say: train it all day long. It is just like with a game: why do people play games? It is fun to do because there are many modes and possibilities. So, you need to bring that aspect into your training.
Desiree Timmermans: 16:58
You need to understand very well how you can make it appealing to the students.
Nick Thienpondt: 17:04
You need to train them to think in a special way when they are on the vessel. And that is different from saying: what is the procedure that is written, and I will copy that in towards a virtual experience.
Desiree Timmermans: 17:17
And can you give an example of what you added to the environment to make it more appealing?
Nick Thienpondt: 17:23
Sure. The students can walk around. Walk from the down floor to the upper floor. They can also take a life jacket and put on the jacket. So there are all variations that they can do - like in real life. And whatever you want to try, go ahead and try it: it is the gamification part.
Desiree Timmermans: 17:40
What question didn't we ask yet, Nick, that you wanted to share with us?
Nick Thienpondt: 17:45
Whoever - it doesn't matter which company creates a training application - always keep three things in mind. The first thing is, retaining knowledge in an aging population is very important. Be aware of that. Make sure that you also keep that in mind in your application. We're not only making applications for youngsters. We are also making applications for the older generations. So, when you open an application for the first time and do not have any experience with it, please ensure that there is a tutorial mode that helps people know how to use it.
The second thing where I think about is making sure that building knowledge for untrained people - or those that need to reorient to new technologies - so that they know how they could use it and not just only by: here is the headset, take care, use it and we will see what happens.
Third, whatever you do with the training application, please capture tracking: how they react and what they do. It is the most valuable feedback that you could get. And also the most valuable feedback for a company that provides headsets or applications. No matter what type of environment or critical environment: feedback on how people react is the best thing that you can have to update your training.
Jelle Demanet: 19:07
Great. It was very interesting to hear how you tackled that problem. The next step is to bring it to more people so that they see that it's already happening and has extra value. And thank you for that.
Desiree Timmermans: 19:19
Thank you very much, Nick, for joining us and sharing your knowledge and expertise. Especially the use-case with the Antwerp Maritime Academy. Also, thanks to Thierry and Jelle.
Thanks a lot for listening to this episode of XR Valley Talk. We gladly connect with you, so feel free to get in touch via our website: XR Valley.be
