Driving Success with Judd Allen

In this insightful episode of RIA Collective, host Charlie Van Derven engages in a captivating conversation with Judd Allen of Judd Allen Financial and the ICG Group. They delve into Judd's strategic transition from a broad financial advisory role to mastering a niche within the automotive sector. Reflecting on his initial uncertainties and the transformative journey to becoming a specialist, Judd shares how his passion for cars and understanding of automotive professionals' unique financial needs fueled his success.

The discussion explores the profound satisfaction Judd finds in building long-term relationships and witnessing his clients achieve their retirement dreams, highlighting that some rewards far surpass monetary compensation. They also touch on the importance of adapting to industry changes, leveraging technology, and the impact of specialized knowledge in fostering client trust and business growth.

Tune in for an inspiring look at how dedication to a niche, combined with genuine passion, can drive a fulfilling and successful career in financial advisory.

Transcript

 00:00
Charlie Van Derven
Thank you for tuning in to another episode of RAA Collective, as every single time you listen, I'm your host, Charlie Van Duvin. I'm excited to introduce my guest today. First off, he's a good budy of mine, so we'll have a fun conversation. In addition to that, he's recently made a transition now not straight to RAA, but to a hybrid environment. And it's an interesting transition because it's leaving a firm that has both an independent and a captive side. He was there as an independent, but of course, subject to the captive parameters of that firm as well. And now coming to a straight independent broker dealer running the hybrid business. So we're going to base our conversation around that stuff today and probably we'll have some goofing around because we're buddies. Judd Allen. Dude, thank you so much for being here. 

 00:55
Charlie Van Derven
Judd's firm is Judd Allen Financial and the ICG Group investment consulting group. I guess the G in there was redundant when I said it the first time in Birmingham, Michigan. Judd, what's up, man? 

 01:08
Judd Allen
How you doing, Charlie? Thanks for having me. Great. Yeah. Doing well. Just kind of awaiting another little winter storm warning here in know. We'll wait for some more sloppy weather to show up for. Yeah, man, that's it. 

 01:24
Charlie Van Derven
Midwest has been weird this year, Judd. 

 01:26
Judd Allen
It certainly has. It certainly has. I just got a report from Jackson Hole, which I was just at last week. They just got a foot of snow overnight, and there's more coming. 

 01:34
Charlie Van Derven
So, man, we got to push our trip back two or three weeks next year. 

 01:40
Judd Allen
I agree. I agree. Find the February flow, man. 

 01:43
Charlie Van Derven
Yeah, that's exactly right. So, Judd, here's the thing. I'm really excited about what you're going to bring to our audience today. Right. First off, your transition is six months old maybe. Right? 

 01:53
Judd Allen
Already, yeah, already. 

 01:55
Charlie Van Derven
But also, that's really recent. So this is really fresh on your mind. I'm sure there's still some transition elements that are happening there. There's always that kind of breadcrumbs at the end of it. And so we'll get into that transition and what went well, what maybe didn't go so well, and that you changed. We'll get into all that stuff towards the end of our conversation here. Let's learn about you a little bit. I know you've got a really focused niche on automotive, right? And you built that brand, so you actually kind of run two brands investment consulting group, which with some partners, and then Judd Allen Financial, which is an individual endeavor. Let's talk about what's attractive about automotive, why you chose that niche, the impact that's had on your business? 

 02:42
Judd Allen
Sure. Yeah, absolutely. So when I started in this business, which was a long time ago, I showed up on the job sometime in 2005. I had absolutely no idea what the heck I was doing. I mean, my gosh, a few months ago, I was walking away from a career as a trained chef. So this is a complete career change for me back in day one. So when I showed up on the job, I was stuck in a corner with stacks of phone numbers like this and told it, get to work. And supposedly I'm calling Ford motor employees, and we have a seminar once a month. So when I showed up on the scene, the two partners, they've got about ten years on me, and they started to develop this niche a little bit. And it wasn't so much automotive. 

 03:37
Judd Allen
It was so much what automotive employees could do. And that was they had this ability to roll money from a 401K plan to an IRA account. So we really capitalized on that, and it's a huge value add, and it allows a lot of people still working to establish a relationship with an advisor. So for a number of years, the automotive industry was really about the only industry that could do this kind of thing. One thing just kind of led to another and had a handful of automotive clients. And then once I started to really understand the needs of the automotive professional, I mean, they sign up from day one, a lot of them coming in on the companies on the heels of a father and grandfather and things like that. 

 04:21
Judd Allen
So there's a tremendous amount of tradition in this industry, tremendous amount of family lineage, and I really gravitated towards that. And I found that people in this industry, I'm a car lover myself. I'm a freak about vehicles. Any picture of a mustang or anything like that Ford Motor puts up or I salivate over. So there was some like mindedness there, too. I found this niche that not only was in my backyard, but there was a need there that we could really serve. And after that, it was just really, even to this day, gaining more and more understanding and awareness of the complex needs of not only that professional, but the complexities of retirement. Most of these individuals are, once they retire, they've got to generate a paycheck for as long as they've been working. So, you know, that's where we really came into play. 

 05:22
Judd Allen
And I found kind of my niche and the planning aspect of it and everything, you know, to watch somebody sit in my office, you know, halfway through their career, and now at the end of March of 2024, I get to sit there and watch them sitting in my office signing their retirement paperwork. And to me, there isn't a big enough paycheck that can replace that kind of satisfaction. Doing what? 

 05:48
Charlie Van Derven
You're doing it for the right reasons, and it's one of the reasons I have so much respect for you and hold you in high regard, is I know what those personal relationships are like for you. 

 05:57
Judd Allen
Absolutely. 

 05:58
Charlie Van Derven
That's pretty cool. What impact do you feel like? So the niche was natural based on where you're located, based on what the partners were already doing when you walked through the door. Sure. What impact did getting narrow on that focus. What kind of impact did that have on your particular practice? 

 06:16
Judd Allen
So the impact after a while that it had is we really started to make a name for ourselves in that industry. And we quickly understood that if you really focusing on this, we can focus all our attention on this one niche and the needs of the individuals in there. We really become kind of an expert in our field. And what that does for us is that we know that the referral is by far the prospect out there, prospective client out there, but we want people talking about us, and it's allowed us to really kind of build that brand image that, yeah, if you're sitting around the water cooler at work or the coffee pot and you start talking about finances, most likely our name is going to come up somewhere, some way in that conversation. 

 07:16
Judd Allen
But, yeah, it's allowed us to really kind of be a specialty in that area, to kind of hang our hats on that. And there's a lot of great advisors out there, a lot of great ferns that do a lot of great things, and we kind of learned from that. The two partners with those that they came up in the industry with, and everybody kind of breaks off their separate ways after you graduate the crash course at a wirehouse somewhere or something like that. And a lot of those other, the successful advisors we find do have a niche, whether they be doctors, lawyers, candlestick makers, whatever. And I just feel like that you can focus all your attention kind of going back to the value add that you do in your work, you can focus your attention on that. 

 08:02
Judd Allen
So if I were sitting in their shoes and I was sitting in front of my advisor, who supposedly is automotive professional only and things like that, and understands my needs, but yet his next three meetings are with doctors and attorneys and dentists. Different needs, completely different sets of needs. So it's really allowed us to focus on what matters for these people. 

 08:27
Charlie Van Derven
Yeah, you get to concentrate that brand instead of saturating. 

 08:31
Judd Allen
Absolutely. 

 08:32
Charlie Van Derven
It's awesome. 

 08:33
Judd Allen
Yeah, absolutely. 

 08:35
Charlie Van Derven
Let's talk about now. You started your firm, I'm not going to bring in any firm names. You can do it if you want to, I don't care. But I try to keep that stuff out of it. 

 08:42
Judd Allen
Sure. 

 08:43
Charlie Van Derven
So where you started your career spent, 1st, 1517 years, whatever it was. That's with a firm that's got like kind of two sides of the fence. Right. They've got a captive side w two, kind of employee of the firm advisor, and then they've got an independent side 1099 now. Very. And I know you've been through this just because I know you will, but the scenario in that type of situation is that they don't have two compliance departments. 

 09:15
Judd Allen
Right. 

 09:16
Charlie Van Derven
They don't have two marketing departments. 

 09:18
Judd Allen
Sure. 

 09:19
Charlie Van Derven
So as an independent in those environments, everybody's treated like the w two. I call it the kind of the lowest common denominator syndrome. Compliance doesn't have to worry about the independent person. They don't have to worry about the majority of people. They've got to worry about that lowest common denominator, the risky advisor of the thousands of advisors that are with them 100%. Let's talk a little bit, because you got a lot of people that are with Raymond James in that situation, Ameripress situation, Wells Fargo in that situation. 

 09:52
Judd Allen
Sure. 

 09:53
Charlie Van Derven
Several firms that are set up that way. 

 09:55
Judd Allen
Sure. 

 09:56
Charlie Van Derven
How did that maybe handcuffs the word? I don't know. But how did that make business as an independent advisor more difficult for you? What was the ramifications of that type of. 

 10:08
Judd Allen
Sure, and that's a great question, Charlie, and I would imagine the majority of your audience tuning in really kind of wants to get down to the nitty gritty like, why did this guy move? What is it about the RIA and so many advisors? They read about it. I know they do. They see it in financial Planning magazine and the IRA and the team that left and all this sort of stuff. So kind of getting back to the independent versus the captive. We started out, when I came on into the industry, were with a really small, just regional broker dealer, and eventually our business just simply outgrew it. And so we made a transition shortly thereafter to a big wirehouse on Wall street. And were really after were set up on the independent arm. And there again, the independence versus the wirehouse. 

 11:09
Judd Allen
I mean, first and foremost, you know, most advisors, probably nine times out of nine out of ten you're going to talk to is, well, independents make more money, they get higher payouts. They have more freedom. They can do what they want. They can build their brand. They don't have sales goals. They can offer completely objective advice to their clients. But what were really after is kind of the big wirehouse resources. So went independent. But the nice thing about that was that not only were we independent, we maintained our independence, but we also had those big firm resources that make the Merrills and the Ray J's. And the UBS is very attractive because it's kind of one stop shop for high net worth people. If they need lending, they need securities lending, mortgages, whatever. 

 11:56
Judd Allen
With us, it's everything with a dollar sign in front of it. It's not just your pie chart asset allocation. And you come to us for outsized performance, and that's it. You can go brag to your friends about it. The country club. No, the industry has changed. And while the warehouse structure has really good intentions, and while it still does, I still think there's definitely opportunity for maybe that w two wirehouse type employee to eventually move over to an independent side within the same firm. It has its benefits. But what we started to experience over time is the change in the industry. And you're absolutely right. As the wirehouse grew, the independent sides are growing and stuff like that. They can't have 400 different compliance officers, one for our group and one for that group and every group or whomever building separate brands. 

 12:51
Judd Allen
So they kind of paint us all with the same brush after a while. And we understand, I mean, a firm cannot do that. The resources that it would cost would be, it just is not feasible in the wirehouse structure for a compliance department to truly give an independent group their independence. It's really hard to do that. So that was what we started to experience with the change in the industry, the change in regulations. And a lot of them were good changes, but a lot of them certainly tightened those handcuffs quite a bit from the terms of communication with public and things like that. 

 13:29
Judd Allen
Now, what we started to run into, and I think this is a pretty common problem, too, and to your point is that the regulators can set so many guidelines for the industry, and then it's up to the firm from there. The firm has to self governance from there. So what a lot of captive advisors about the time we start feeling this captivity of, we're supposed to be independent, but yet we can't do much. We start to experience it about the time where we realize that brand building is extremely important. Cold calling, I wouldn't say is dead today, but it's dead today. I mean, with the advances of technology platforms like LinkedIn, Instagram, all this sort of stuff, where at the end of the day, brand building is the way you're going to make it in this industry. 

 14:18
Judd Allen
It is find some friends and family with some money to get you started, but you got to build your brand. And in today's platform and technology and the way the world works and reads and operates, wirehouses really struggle with that because of the compliance issues. You're totally right. Somebody just starting out, I mean, they're going to put stuff on their content that maybe they can't or whatever. So it can become very cumbersome. It becomes very cumbersome. And it just doesn't go to what you can say to the public. It might boil down to the technology stacks that you have, the tools, the ability or inability to do webinars, things like that. So I think that's what really kind of faces the struggles that face the industry today. I mean, the regulations put in place and things like that. We want them. 

 15:11
Judd Allen
They're to protect everybody, they're to protect the client, to protect the advisor. But at the same time, brand building is so important to the success. What were experiencing is there were behind the times a little bit where cold calling and steak dinners were the thing. Still. 

 15:38
Charlie Van Derven
I don't know how long ago. Maybe it's ten years, Jud. I don't know what it is. But at some point, the open market was moving faster than what the deep pockets of the wirehouses were able to adapt to. 

 15:51
Judd Allen
Right, well said. Yeah, well said. Yeah, well said. 

 15:55
Charlie Van Derven
You might have four or five options on the open market for financial planning software, and the wirehouse is married to one piece of software that gets attention every five or six years. And in those five or six years, the open market has raced past the capability of that warehouse. Now, they get caught up in five or six years, but by the time they do that, the open market is moving even faster. 

 16:18
Judd Allen
Sure. 

 16:20
Charlie Van Derven
Between the advancement of technology, keeping up with open market and compliance, having to govern that w two, when you're actually an independent in that same space. I understand the move. So you made six months ago, or whatever it is, you made the move to Osaic. 

 16:35
Judd Allen
Yes. 

 16:36
Charlie Van Derven
And how's that been? You're only going to say great things, so maybe that's not. Transition is not easy. First off, let me say that, and I know it hasn't been all perfect for you either, but maybe we take this approach. If there's something or a couple of things that you did well, in transition, what are those like, getting prepared for that move? 

 17:02
Judd Allen
Sure. Yeah. Speaking to just transitions in general, I know the size of our firm and our books and my own personal book and things like that. And I'll say this, if you're really looking to make a transition, you better damn well do some due diligence and make sure it's the right move, because it is a tremendous amount of work. It's a tremendous amount of work. The transition we made, too, was a great fit for not only me, my clients, but our group as a whole too, and serving that niche market. But yeah, transitions, the first transition when we moved from our regional broker dealer to the wirehouse, way back when I started, I was at clients house at 1030 at night, still getting wet signatures. So now it's all esignature and things like that. 

 17:53
Judd Allen
And while we think technology is going to really make it easy, it's a tremendous amount of work. So speaking with transition in that sense, it's something that, it's a lot more work than what is anticipated, I think, but by any means, if the transition is going to benefit your clients, and by all means. Now, going into this, what we thought we did really well, first and foremost, was the use of the technology to make the transition smooth. And that's really what were after with our clients. We weren't too worried about clients deciding whether or not to come or go or stay or come with us or anything like that. But our main concern was when the client gets everything they need in hand, how can we make it as efficient and as easy as possible for them? 

 18:47
Judd Allen
And we did a phenomenal job of that to the point where were sitting there like, my gosh, everything is coming in so faster than what we anticipated. So were really pleased with that, leveraging the technology, but that's what I would say is really play the whole entire tape to the end. Usually transitions are, there's sign on bonuses offered and things like that. Just don't lose sight of why you're here and what you're doing and why you're doing this transition. We got to always take into consideration the client at the end and how they're going to experience that transition, too. And we feel our clients now, granted, yeah, new systems in place and things like that nowadays. New place, new systems. We've been doing the same thing for almost 20 years. 

 19:41
Judd Allen
So, yeah, I mean, a little break in the routine and things like that might be a little bit of a hang up, but overall, very pleased with it. What I thought we did that really well, was just the execution of it and really leveraging the technology that was available to us. Yeah, that's awesome. 

 19:56
Charlie Van Derven
Little learning curve. But that's natural. 

 19:59
Judd Allen
Sure. 

 20:01
Charlie Van Derven
As soon as all the boomers are, as soon as the generations keep advancing and we've got. Technologically. I'm thinking about my dad, right? 77 years old. 

 20:09
Judd Allen
Sure. 

 20:10
Charlie Van Derven
I can only imagine taking somebody who had retired ten or 15 years ago and trying to get them to use new technologies. 

 20:18
Judd Allen
Sure. It's a challenge. And then you have their kids who just sign the same paperwork waiting at the traffic light on their. 

 20:29
Charlie Van Derven
Exactly. Yeah. 

 20:30
Judd Allen
Right. 

 20:31
Charlie Van Derven
What a crazy. 

 20:33
Judd Allen
Totally. 

 20:34
Charlie Van Derven
Yeah, yeah. How crazy is. 

 20:36
Judd Allen
Yeah. 

 20:37
Charlie Van Derven
Let's talk about the flip side of that, Judd. As you look back on the last six months, and you guys do awesome with client relationships. I know that. And so I'm sure your retention was super high, a little different, because you were going from independent to independent. 

 20:51
Judd Allen
Sure. 

 20:52
Charlie Van Derven
Even that warehouse compliance and marketing and all that stuff, but independent. So they were your clients to begin with and there was no fight over that. That's awesome. So I know that you guys did really well with that, with moving clients over, holding their hand through the process. Is there anything in particular that you're like, gosh, I wish we'd have done this a little differently, that maybe you would have changed. 

 21:17
Judd Allen
Sure. Yeah, absolutely. I would say that anybody considering a transition and the due diligence that you have to have, and what I learned from my experience is get your staff involved. Typically, big decisions are probably going to come from higher up and partners and, hey, listen, you didn't get to where you are making dumb decisions. So I trust that anybody listening in who is considering a transition is giving it some good thought and things like that. But I think the real key, though, is to really get your staff involved who do the day to day operations in your office. Get your person. Maybe you've got somebody who just simply, I don't know, sets up appointments or sends out distributions to client. Get them involved. Let them learn that system. 

 22:19
Judd Allen
Use your trusted staff who do your day to day operations to give you some feedback on some of the technology, the processes, the back office processing. Maybe processing times are different, maybe it's an extra signature, maybe it's going to be a new system, new process. I wouldn't turn back the clock and do it all over again and things like that, like we completely screwed up, but the value of our support staff and their feedback on who use the systems every single day. Yeah, there are just some different systems so that allows the advisor to communicate with the clients, because the clients, the last thing they want is a whole bunch of change. So if the advisor can communicate to the client, the advisor is going to get that from support staff. 

 23:16
Judd Allen
Let's face it, we all know the advisors probably most likely listening, aren't booking their own meetings. They're probably not even managing their own investments. They probably have some third party managers, things like that. So we can focus on those relationships. But get your back office involved. I think that would be the absolute key. Something that we might do a little bit differently. We had them involved, of course, but, yeah, there was just some system processes that weren't used to that. Yeah, maybe we should have looked into that a little bit first or just ahead of time, because we want everything perfect day after transition, after we make the announcement, we want it set up and rolling so we could go do our jobs that we're so good at doing. 

 24:08
Judd Allen
But when we have to go back and figure out which site you really have to go to for logging in to find this and a tax document, that's where your staff is going to be absolutely crucial. The staff should be absolutely crucial in those processes and systems. Yeah. 

 24:24
Charlie Van Derven
Maximize your time with clients 100%. That's your most important role. Delegate. So Judd Allen, financial. Jay Allen, financial automotive expert. I know that's a fairly recent transition and really propping up that individual brand. Tell me about your vision for J. Allen financial. 

 24:48
Judd Allen
Sure. 

 24:49
Charlie Van Derven
What that looks like a year from now, five years from. 

 24:52
Judd Allen
Absolutely, absolutely. So part of the transition, the reason why we did it, was a little bit less captivity and things like that. And we're with a great firm right now that embraces the importance of keeping up to date with the technology and things like that. So I've always had this. In doing what I do, I've gained a real appreciation for what I do. I love what I do. I can't remember the last time I had a Monday morning. Throughout my career, I've danced around investment minimums and how do I work with an advisor and telling people they don't have enough money and things like that. 

 25:43
Judd Allen
But there was this always nagging need to bring my services to just about everybody in a way that really where the advisor is needed the most is early on in your career when you have benefits and 401 and you're fresh out of college and maybe you don't really understand all the money and the investing stuff, but ten out of ten advisors that individual is going to talk to is great. You're starting, but you don't have enough money to make it worth my time to attach my fee and things like that. So I always felt like our services were essentially kind of held out there. They were really just for the wealthy. You had to build the wealth first to even step through our door. Well, how do you build that wealth first? So J. 

 26:36
Judd Allen
Allen Financial came about and it really just started as a brand building. It was really just kind of the marketing name with a group. It wasn't a separation from investment consulting group or anything like that, but just to kind of showcase my brand and what I do with of course, the help of you and social advisors and things like that, it just kind of started out and then with this transition, we have a lot of different structures in place and how I can bring my services to people. And one of those structures is that I can provide my services without touching your investments. And I thought that's awesome, world. Is that going to happen? How is that going to know with where I'm at now? 

 27:30
Judd Allen
It presented itself the opportunity to really showcase Jay Allen financial that, yes, what we're going to do is we are going to create a membership only services for automotive professionals. Membership only. We're not going to see how big I can take it. I'm going to see how small I can stay with the right people in it. So what this is going to allow me to do, the vision for jail and financial now is to be able to bring my services to a wider range of individuals in the automotive industry. So now people can contract my services. They can have a financial advisor, they can get the pie chart investments, they can get the cash flow and the tax planning and the estate planning. And what do I do for my four hundred and one k? 

 28:19
Judd Allen
And how do I set up for my pension and all this sort of stuff for one easy membership cost every month for one monthly fee. This is like your gym membership. So if you're watching this and you spend a couple hundred dollars on trainers and the gym and all that sort of stuff, I'm really your financial personal trainer. 

 28:37
Judd Allen
And that's what Jay Allen Financial is really set out to do, is to bring financial services, all the services of the high net worth, the ultra net worth people that you see on the tv and the happy couple sailing in their boat and all that kind of stuff is to bring that to the individual who's just starting out, who is midway through their career, who thinks, if you're the person that thinks, boy, as soon as I get that million dollars on my 401K statement, I'm going to call Judd Allen? No, you don't have to have anything. And I think that's really what really sets me apart in the sense that I can provide those services to the young professionals just starting out. The automotive industry is going through a tremendous amount of change right now. 

 29:26
Judd Allen
People are moving and shuffling from one place to the other. They don't know if they're going to have a new job when they wake up Monday morning or not. They don't know if they're going to have some all of a sudden profit sharing check. They don't know if they're going to get laid off. So there's a lot of money in motion in transition, and we understand that. Hey, listen, making sure that you're putting food on the table and you got a place to go to work every single day is a lot more important than coming to my office for a review on your estate plan. This brings it to people that number one, value advice, but number two, it's affordable. It's affordable financial planning. That's really at the end of the day. 

 30:08
Judd Allen
And like I said, I don't intend to see how big this thing can get. We're going to keep it small. We're going to keep it exclusive. And listen, it's just, hey, we want to do good things for good people, and that's it. At the end of the day, there's no amount of zeros at the end of the paycheck or the revenue stream or anything like that we're really looking for here. We just want to bring wholesome services to good people so that at some point they can do whatever the hell they want to with their time, when they want. That's it. 

 30:46
Charlie Van Derven
You're a good dude, Jud Al, and I appreciate your friendship, man. Let's close with this. 

 30:52
Judd Allen
Let's close with this. 

 30:53
Charlie Van Derven
So you're a giving guy. I love the subscription model. The membership model certainly is a differentiator for you. Allows you to bring services to a much broader audience. And at one point they get under the Aum model. And when their career hits that point, people who are curious about your journey, curious about maybe that subscription model. Right? Are you okay being a resource to them? 

 31:23
Judd Allen
Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. A lot of times I'm an unintended resource, I guess. And I love it when young guys come up to me and they're like, hey, I just got my series seven. What the hell do I do? I know you're in this business and things like that. What do I do? We've done that in the past and yeah, I'm happy to. Anybody struggling with this or wants to make a move, this is a great career. And I would encourage any advisor who is really looking for a change in their career, maybe they're just kind of at a dead end or maybe thinking about a career change. I would say there's a lot of great avenues in this business that we can do today, thanks to regulation, thanks to technology advancement, all that kind of stuff. 

 32:20
Judd Allen
This isn't here to bash the regulators or anything like that. It is a wonderful career to be in. And money isn't everything, but hey, kind of ranks up there with oxygen. We can do good for advisors, can do a lot of good for a lot of people. And if you're sitting there struggling, wondering if this is really the right move for you and things like that, I would just simply say, yeah, use me as a resource because there's a lot of great things out there that could be for you and change things around. But I've been there. I've been there and I've been very unhappy with my broker dealer and situation and things like that. But yeah, things can change. Things can really change. 

 33:14
Charlie Van Derven
Very cool. Well, Joe Allen, thank you for taking time out of your day. 

 33:17
Judd Allen
Absolutely, Charlie, thanks for having me. 

 33:19
Charlie Van Derven
Yeah, dude, your insights, awesome. I appreciate it. Everybody listening, I hope you get some value out of these conversations. Always. We're looking for feedback, so hit me up with feedback. If you got somebody you think I should interview, hit Jod up. If you got questions about his transition or about model or whatever that might be. And thank you so much for tuning into another episode of RaA collective. As you know, because I say it all the time, we don't take sponsorship. I don't want to feel like we've know somebody to. So, you know, more people learn about this if you share it. So certainly subscribe, like what we're doing, share it with people you know, that might need advice from intelligent people like my buddy Judd Allen. 

 34:03
Charlie Van Derven
Judd, I know I'm talking to you, so, like, it won't be too long, man, but we'll be back on the little session in the morning. 

 34:11
Judd Allen
Absolutely. 

 34:12
Charlie Van Derven
And pretty soon we'll be getting together for maybe a musky jamboree or a snow. 

 34:18
Judd Allen
I know, I know. We got longer days coming, so warm weather activities, they're really knocking on my back door. For sure, man. I'm ready. 

 34:29
Charlie Van Derven
Thank you. I appreciate it. And for our listeners, thanks for tuning in. 

 34:34
Judd Allen
Awesome. Thanks to B.