009. Abby Grace Springmann: When is the Right Time to Pivot?

Ever wondered how to pivot your offers, diversify revenue streams, or be both a present mom AND a great CEO?! If so, today’s interview with Abby Grace is a must listen! Real talk Abby showed up and delivered an in depth look at how she pivoted her successful (but all encompassing) wedding photography business into a business model that better aligned with  a new season of life and motherhood.

If talking about money makes you want to bury your head in the sand (or cry into your pinot noir), don’t tune out today! Abby is right there with you, as a self-confessed “I hate money” person, she sweated it out and dropped some incredible gems on how she learned to divorce the finances from the feelings and gain financial literacy, in order to make more strategic moves in her business that allowed more time with her family without sacrificing the income her family relied upon.

“My business has to serve my clients, but it also has to serve my family.” 

How to step into abundance, sift the good from the great, and let go of fear … all in today’s interview! Press play to hear the incredible conversation with Abby.

WILDFLOWER SHOWNOTES : shannaskidmore.com/abby-springmann

Transcript

Abby Springmann: (00:00)
So I will say, like, after Felix was born, there was probably like a four to six month period where I just felt a lot attention of like, yes, I want to continue to run my business with integrity. And I wanna continue to show up at the, at the same caliber that I was, and I wanna be as present as I was, but like, I also really wanna spend time with my son and I, and I wanna be a good and present mom. And how can I do both? And then COVID hit and I didn't have to do both for the, for a long time. And then when things started ramping back up again, realizing like, Hmm, that's this is the, the, this pivot towards brand photography could not have come at a better time.

Shanna Skidmore: (00:33)
You are listening to Consider the Wildflowers, the podcast, episode nine. Have you ever felt the need to pivot or diversify your offers or wondered if it's possible to be both a present mom and a great CEO? If so, today's interview with Abby Grace is a must listen. As Abby's assistant would say, imagine me over here air quoting, "real talk Abby" showed up and delivered an in-depth look at how she pivoted her successful, but all encompassing wedding photography business into a business model that better aligned with her season of life and being a new mom. If talking about money makes you want to bury your head in the sand or cry into your Pinot Noir, don't tune out today. Abby is right there with you. As a self confessed I hate money person, she sweated it out with me and dropped some incredible gems on how she learned to divorce the finances from the feelings and gain financial literacy in order to make more strategic moves in her business that allowed more time with her family without sacrificing the income her family relied upon. If you dig professional bios, here goes. Abby Grace is a brand photographer for high performing creative, small business owners based just outside of Washington, DC. She's a wife, mama of two by way of adoption, a speaker and an educator for fellow creatives. Abby's background in communication and PR paired with more than a decade of profitable business ownership, make her an authority for creatives and artists looking to put their big kid pants on so that they can make the impact they were born to make. Formal introductions over. Let's dive in.

Shanna Skidmore: (02:03)
Hey, it's Shanna. And this is consider the wildflowers the podcast. For the past 15 plus years. I've had the honor to hear thousands of stories from entrepreneurs around the world. As a former fortune 100 financial advisor turned business consultant, I have a unique opportunity to see the real behind the highlight reel. I'm talking profit and loss statements, unpaid taxes, moments of burnout, and those of utter victory, or as my husband says, the content everyone is wondering, but not many are talking about. And now I'm bringing these private conversations to you. Hear the untold stories of how industry leaders, founders, and up and coming entrepreneurs got their start, the experiences that shaped them and the journey to building the brands they have today. Stories that will inspire and reignite encourage to redefine success and build a life and business on your own terms. Welcome wildflower. I'm so glad you're here.

Shanna Skidmore: (02:57)
Hey Abby oh my goodness. I'm so excited to have you on the podcast today. Thank you so much for coming on. I can't wait to hear more of your story. Will you just say hello to everybody and kick us off? Just telling us a little bit about Abby

Abby Springmann: (03:10)
Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me here. I, this is one of my favorite ways to interact with other humans is on podcasts. Cuz you get to listen to two people hanging out and having a good time and then like, oh also sometimes we learn things too.  um, well hopefully we definitely learn things, but I am Abby Grace. I go by Abby and I am a brand photographer for creative, small business owners. I'm based just outside of the DC area where I live and work with my husband, Matt and our two tiny humans, Felix and Teddy. And I've been in business since 2009. I started out in the wedding industry and then over the last, I think it's been six years at this point, made the pivot into brand photography and that's been just a totally wild ride. And, and we love that so much. And I love teaching. I love sharing on what's worked for us and what hasn't worked for us and I, yeah, I just, I love our industry so much. So this is gonna be a really, really good conversation cuz you always bring things with such honesty and grace. And so I'm just excited to chat.

Shanna Skidmore: (04:10)
I'm excited too. And wow. I did not realize you've been doing brand photography for six years. I mean it

Abby Springmann: (04:17)
It was a slow start. It was like very much on the DL when we started doing it, cuz it wasn't part of our official, I mean I was a wedding photographer and I'd always heard, you know, like specialized specialize specialized. So I didn't wanna put this new offer out if I wasn't sure it was gonna stick. Um, so it was, it was actually kind of an accident that I fell into it and then I realized, oh, I'm actually really good at this. And then when we started looking for, uh, I, I, I knew I didn't wanna be a wedding photographer for forever. Um, and this just was like a, well, I guess we can try adding in brand photography and maybe that will like even things out a little bit and then it just picked up speed and we ended up completely pivoting out of weddings, which is, and, and that like pivot has taken place over the last three years. Um, so I started shooting brand portraits six years ago on accident. And then three years ago I started shooting him on purpose  and began the pivot out of weddings.

Shanna Skidmore: (05:09)
Okay. I want you to take me back prior to 2009. what were you doing? How did you just tell me about life before business?

Abby Springmann: (05:17)
Yeah, so I was in college, um, and I was majoring in communications with a concentration in public relations and I figured that I would probably end up working for some kind of corporation or big company or something like that. Truthfully I wanted, I would've like died to work for Crayola because when you call Crayola with a customer support issue, they end the call with have a colorful day. And I was like, that's the kind of company I want to work for.  but that was

Shanna Skidmore: (05:44)
First of all, how did you find that out? Did you call them?

Abby Springmann: (05:47)
I did. I bought a pack of pip squeaks, which is like these little tiny skinny markers and um, it was like 18 markers and two of them were dry and I was bummed about it. So I was like, oh, I'll just call customer service and maybe they'll send me a replacement, you know, markers are the two that I was missing and they sent me a whole new pack and after they asked for my address and everything, they were like, is there anything else we can do for you? No, have a colorful day. And I was this is the vibe I, this is the vibe I want in my life

Shanna Skidmore: (06:12)
Oh my gosh, I'm gonna, like, we need to incorporate this into our emails or something.

Abby Springmann: (06:17)
Right, exactly. So I figured I would end up working for not Crayola cuz Crayola wasn't based in the area where I wanted to live, but some kind of company where I was gonna have to wear, you know, like a dress shirt and like a pencil skirt every day. And I, I didn't really wanna work in a corporate job, but I didn't, I didn't know. I hadn't really fallen into anything else. And then I fell into photography in a dark room class, my junior year. And it was like the first thing I discovered that I loved for me and that I was good at that. I also loved cause there, there had been other things in my life that I was good at, but that I wasn't super passionate about, but other people were like, you're really good at that thing. And you're like, alright, well I guess I'll do it for a while. And it doesn't really, you don't get the hum you know, where you're like, yes, this is me living in my purpose or living in my calling and photography was that. And so I was like, I really wanna be a professional photographer, but I feel like my parents might kill me if I switch my major halfway through my senior year. Um  So I, I finished my degree in communications and I graduated in May of 2010 and immediately went to work for a fortune 500 defense contractor, which was amazing. It was such a gift to have a job right after I graduated, especially when so many of my, my other classmates didn't, um, because the recession had hit, well, it was like a year beforehand, a year and a half beforehand. And so I had told myself, I want, I'm gonna give myself two years and I'm gonna go really hard at this photography thing and I'm gonna take it seriously and try to build this business and see what happens. And hopefully in two years I can leave my corporate job. And so I started with Northrop Grumman on June 7th, 2010. And my last day was June 1st, 2012. So I did it in two years by skin of my teeth. I did it. Yeah. Um, but that's where, that's where I was prior to, to, to the creative business. I was in college and figured I was condemned to corporate wasteland and didn't know I had another option.

Shanna Skidmore: (08:11)
Okay. So you started in photography yeah. In college, 2009. Did you know that you wanted to do weddings or what were those first kind of offers and then kind of second question to that. What made you say, okay, I can quit my job. Was it you had replaced your salary? Like what were kind of the milestones there?

Abby Springmann: (08:30)
Yeah. So the first offers were, so I knew I left photography and then I realized I was really obsessed with stalking people's wedding pictures on Facebook. And I was like, oh, I could do this, these two things at the same time. Like I could be a wedding photographer and get to be the one who takes these photographs. And so that way I don't have to stalk other people's wedding photos on Facebook. Um, and so I started out offering I, well, my first year I started off as, as an apprentice. So 2000 for the whole 2010 wedding season, I did nothing but shoot for another photographer and learned how to be like how to go about a wedding day and like the basics of running a business. And so I, I dabbled in, I, I tried a couple of other things. Like I took some maternity portraits, like once or twice. I did maybe a family session or two and just was like, no, like weddings are where it's at. This is all that I wanna do. And so I like honed in on that quote unquote specialization pretty early. And then the, what was the second question?

Shanna Skidmore: (09:25)
Yeah. So what made you be okay leaving your job?

Abby Springmann: (09:28)
Yeah, so I, we set a benchmark of having between 50 and 75% of my salary replaced. So like our goal was, I knew that if, if I was gonna replace my salary in Northrop Grumman, and this is using the term replaced loosely because I was thinking like gross income, not necessarily like what my take home was, but I was like, if I can gross, if I can get on the books 50 to 75% of my gross income, I feel comfortable leaving my job because then I know with the additional time I have to devote to my business, I can make up that additional 25 to 50%. And we got to that point in March of 2000, 2012. And it was like, , you know, one of those moments that you recall forever, cuz I was in a Wegman's parking lot at like 9:00 PM crying to my husband about how tired I was all the time and that I had to go home and I had to do more edits and I just wanted to go to bed and I just wanted time to be able to hang out with my family and my friends. And Matt was like, I think it's time. I think it's time for you to leave. And so at that point we were like 62% replaced. And so it was like we were right on track. So I, I gave my notice, I gave them two months of notice to give them ample time to find a replacement. And then I left in June and it was terrifying and all of our family was like, what are you doing?

Shanna Skidmore: (10:45)
So did you tell your parents that you wanted to be a professional photographer?

Abby Springmann: (10:50)
Yes. And my mom was so sweet and supportive and she was like, I mean, you're, you seem to be pretty good at this. Like, okay. I mean we're like worst case scenario. Like if it doesn't work out, you can always go back to your corporate job. My dad was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. We do this safe thing here. You need to be okay with staying at your corporate job. You need to be like, if that's where the Lord has called you to, you need to be okay with staying at corporate job for the rest of your career. And which was like dagger to my soul.

Shanna Skidmore: (11:17)
I mean, I, I had to catch my breath there for a second. Like yes,

Abby Springmann: (11:21)
Yes. Yeah. Like, yeah. And I, I had one family member and a great uncle who was like, you got a great thing going on in here, you got your corporate gig and then you got your photography thing. Just do that for the next 30 years. And you can retire by the time you're in your early fifties. And I was like, everything that you just said sounds like deatht to me.

Shanna Skidmore: (11:38)
And I'll shoot five hours a night. And uh, it'll be really unhealthy.

Abby Springmann: (11:42)
Yeah. Uhhuh,

Shanna Skidmore: (11:44)
I have a question. I was thinking. So with this photography that you, the photographer you apprentice under mm-hmm  did you know this person, like how did you get connected?

Abby Springmann: (11:56)
Yeah, I did the thing that a lot of photographers hate and that I emailed out to a bunch of already established photographers and was like, how did you get to do what you do? Like how can you tell me, like, did, do you have a degree in photography? Do I need a degree in photography? And just basically asked like, is there any hope for me totally cold emails. I think I, I sent like five emails, maybe 10 and one person wrote back and was just like best of luck with your future endeavors . And then the other one wrote back was Mike and Mike was like, I mean, I, he was like, I have a degree in fire science. Like, no, you don't need a degree to be a professional photographer. But like my best advice to you is just like find a photographer who will let you go to a wedding with them and like shadow them and, and observe and, and, you know, assist or whatever it is that you need to do to be at the wedding. And I was like, cool, thanks for the advice. Could I come to a wedding with you?

Abby Springmann: (12:49)
And he was very generous. He said, yes. And he, like, he even paid me for that first wedding that I went to, which was really kind, and he did not have to do that. Yeah. But he became my mentor. Like I ended up apprenticing under him for the next year and he let me use his gear and like, let me test things out and like really let me like find my sea legs. It was a very low risk situation for me because he was a very accomplished photographer who honestly like didn't need that much from a second shooter. Um, and so like I got to go in and, and, and shoot and see what I liked and, and learn how to take direction from another photographer. And, but yeah, it was, it was cold emailing out to a bunch of photographers, which I know someone listening to this podcast is gonna be like, please don't do that.

Shanna Skidmore: (13:31)
I know, but I mean sometimes, Hey, you gotta do what you gotta do to get out there and pursue. I mean, I'm like over here, slow clapping for you. That's amazing.  so he was paying you, I'm assuming, just like as a second shooter. sS you're bringing in that revenue. And when did you start, did you get a website up? Did you ask friends and family, like how'd you get that first client?

Abby Springmann: (13:53)
So my first client, my first wedding booking was a friend who had been seeing. So Mike had been really generous and let me use the images that I shot with him in my portfolio. And so I was posting those on social media. I had, I'm trying to think when my blog went live, I think my blog went live after I started booking my own clients, but I, I was blogging. So that, that would probably been like mid 2011. So then I was like blogging the weddings that I did with Mike, which I look back on that now I'm like, I would never let a second shooter do that.  was so generous with me. So it was blogging the material that I had shot under Mike talking about it a lot. I talked about pretty much nothing but wedding photography on social media. And so friends from college started referring their friends who were getting married, who were like, Hey, you're like, you're getting married fresh outta college. You don't have a ton of money. My friend Abby's new. She could probably help you out. And so like my first three weddings, I booked at a thousand dollars a piece and I was like, this is great. I don't have to pay anything to do this wedding. This is like free money.  um,  yeah. That mindset did not last for very long when I realized how expensive camera gear was. But yeah, that's how it started. It started with referrals, from friends from college. And then I started blogging and like, I was, I had bloggedalmost, I, I think like every day for the first like four, maybe five years of my business and that built up a lot of momentum quickly. Um, just talking, talking, talking about what I was doing. And so there was nobody in my, my like social circle who didn't know that I was a wedding photographer.

Shanna Skidmore: (15:26)
yeah. I, I would imagine other people listening have the same question. You're new to photography. So I'm assuming you don't have a ton of events. What did you blog about every single day for four to five years?

Abby Springmann: (15:38)
Oh my Gosh. Everything. I look well, so I mean, it took, it only took me like probably a year of blogging before the bookings were coming more consistently. But I blogged about, gosh, about everything. Like I had a series called Monday mashup. So every Monday it was just like, here's what happened to me over the last week. And it was nonsense. Like just like, look, my dog did this cute thing. And like people read it and I don't know why  um, but doing that, like it was, it was pretty low pressure. I was learning out loud a lot. So anything that I was in the midst of mastering or struggling with, I blogged about it. I blogged about personal stuff. Like, Hey, me and my husband went to the fall, fall festival. Here's some pictures. Like it was personal and professional. I would blog about here's what to wear to your engagement session. Like just learning, what did I like blogging about what were people responding to? But I mean, I had this commitment, I gotta blog every single day. And so I was like, you better find something to talk about. Cause you made the commitment and you don't wanna, you know, fall, fall off on that.

Shanna Skidmore: (16:39)
Yeah. Did somebody tell you, was that advice Mike gave you or why did you, why did blogging become your form of marketing?

Abby Springmann: (16:46)
Because I saw Kaitlyn James and Jasmine Star doing it and I figured if that's what they need to do to be, to be successful, then I need to do the same thing. And I wasn't blogging about the same things that they were blogging about, but I was just like, well, this is what successful people do is they blog every day. Um, and I'm glad that I did it honestly. Like, I mean, we, my blog continues to bring in traffic and not like necessarily my Monday mashup posts from 10 years ago, but that people are still finding us on Google. Like if you Google brand photographer, I'm number three in the organic results. And I have never tried to be, but I have 11 years of blog history. That's still going to work for me. So even though I look back on those posts and I'm like, oh, please don't read that. Then I'm glad I did it because it's one like search engine traffic continues to pay dividends to this day.

Shanna Skidmore: (17:34)
It is so interesting, Abby, that you've, this was brought up in this conversation. I think so many of these conversations I've had, and I know so many conversations with my clients that are in the seven, eight figures are they blogged every day. And I get like 2010 is not 2022, but there is something too creating content that lives for a long period of time.

Abby Springmann: (17:57)
Like a podcast,

Shanna Skidmore: (17:58)
Like a podcast, here we go.  okay. So I love this conversation so much. I love hearing more of your backstory. And so you're taking on weddings. Were you shooting film or digital at this time?

Abby Springmann: (18:12)
I was shooting digital.. Um, I started well, cuz I originally fell in love with photography in the dark room. It was a, it was a black and white dark room, film, photography class in college. Um, and so I had always loved film, but when it came to weddings, I mean I had never shot color film. And so the concept of like color, photo, color, film photography, didn't even enter my realm of possibility until probably 2012. When like Jose Villa published his book, Elizabeth Messina published her book. I think I, they actually both published those in 2011, but I started thinking like, oh my gosh, this is what high end photographers do is they shoot film and I want to eventually be a high end wedding photographer. So maybe I need to think about shooting film as well. And so I shot a lot of film for personal work, but it wasn't until 2017 that I integrated color film into my workflow as a wedding photographer. So for a few years it was all digital.

Shanna Skidmore: (19:02)
Okay. And then tell us how those early years went. Um, you stopped working with Mike taking your own weddings. How did you start increasing your pricing? Were bookings still just friend to friend or kind of just walk through getting those first clients and building up your own business, kind of replacing that corporate salary, I guess.

Abby Springmann: (19:20)
Yeah. So blogging was a big part of it. Social media became a bigger part of it. Um, I was very active on Facebook and Instagram. Um, I knew that like relationships held a lot of power, so I loved doing style shoots. I did a few like strategic style shoots and then tried to start putting myself in front of wedding photographer or sorry, wedding planners. What I realized is like, okay, I wanna be a high end wedding photographer. I wanna shoot luxury weddings. So I first I thought, well, I'll just, I'll just keyword my way into the luxury industry by typing high end photographer into my keyword section of my blog. And that did not work of course  cause there was no high end work to back it up with . Yeah. And so like, as I continued to grow my craft, I realized, oh, I need to be like, there are certain like keyholders and wedding planners are one of those keyholders so I need to talk to them.

Abby Springmann: (20:11)
And it was a really interesting conversation that I had with this one wedding planner, Pam. And I was saying like, listen, I love your clients. Like I love working with you. I wanna shoot more of your events. Like, can you advise me, like, do you, do you have any advice on how someone like me can be worthy of the type of clientele that you work with? And she was very honest with me and was like, your pricing does not line up with what my clients are looking to spend. Which I thought was, I mean, it was just like this huge light bulb moment of like, oh, people equate cost with quality. Like if I, I mean, not, that's not like a hard law, but like if I'm trying to present myself as a, as a high end wedding photographer, like a BMW wedding photographer, but I'm charging Acura pricing something there doesn't fit. And so if someone has the, the budget for a BMW or an Aston Martin and they look at you and say, well, you cost about as much as a Kia. They're gonna assume that there's some kind of quality missing. They're like, I don't wanna Kia. I want the luxury experience of an Aston Martin. I want the experience of a Lexus. And so what am I not getting by paying Kia or Acura pricing.

Shanna Skidmore: (21:13)
Yeah.

Abby Springmann: (21:13)
And so we started, like I had already sort of topped out of the midrange photography market. I was at the highest part of the midrange photography market.

Shanna Skidmore: (21:21)
What were you charging about this time? If you don't mind sharing.

Abby Springmann: (21:24)
It was like 5,000 around $5,000. Like,

Shanna Skidmore: (21:27)
And this was what year?

Abby Springmann: (21:29)
Mm, probably 2014.

Shanna Skidmore: (21:30)
Okay. So you were two or three years in yeah.

Abby Springmann: (21:33)
Officially. Yeah. So yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, so I was, I was charging like $5,000 and that, that conversation with Pam, I was like, I need to get like $6,000 seemed at that point to be like the breaking point. Like mm-hmm,  six was the very edge of what mid-range brides could stretch themselves to afford typically. And, and six was the lowest end of what high end we high end clients were looking to spend. And I was like between five and six. And so it was like this awkward, no man's land of like, it just didn't make sense. So I, I needed to either back my pricing down to, to, to fit firmly into the midrange tier or make a jump to fit more into the high end tier, which is where I wanted to go. So we raised our prices. So we raised it, it was like starting rate was $6,000. And this was probably like 2015 that we that we began more aggressively increasing pricing . And so it was like starting rate was six. We had like six, seven and a half and nine and nine was like everything and the kitchen sink  and I was like not making any more money in the $9,000 collection than I was exactly in the $6,000 collection. And I don't remember who it was that I had like a mentoring session with, it might have been John Canlas who was like, what are you doing? You need to, like, there needs to be more space between those $1,500 between collections when you're adding like $3,000 worth of product doesn't make sense. So we began increasing the distance between those prices and as, as we began to inch up our pricing. And so, I mean, by the time I left, by the time I stopped booking weddings, which was actually truthfully only last May, we booked our last wedding last May. I still have two weddings on the books for this year that we finish out. But by the time we stopped booking, we were consistently booking between like 10 and $15,000 collections.

Shanna Skidmore: (23:15)
Wow. That's amazing. Yeah. That's so incredible. I mean, just slow like step by step incremental progress, which I think so often we don't talk about or want to hear, you know, it's getting better at your craft. I always say price is about perceived value. And I feel like you said that so well, cuz I hear this in the luxury market as well. Like I had a planner who was told the same thing. Like, uh, they're not gonna book you because your pricing is too low. Yeah. It's too cheap. Yep. People are just like, wait, what?  mm-hmm  but you're so right. I love how you said that. I wrote it down like cost equates. How'd you say it quality people with

Abby Springmann: (23:50)
People equate cost with quality.

Shanna Skidmore: (23:51)
Yeah. That's amazing. Okay. So when you transitioned to film, you're booking out all of your weddings. How many weddings were you taking per year?

Abby Springmann: (24:00)
Yeah. 15 was a comfortable number for me. Like 12 to 15 was, was pretty typical for us. 15 was like, okay, I can do really well at 15. And things are not falling through the cracks. Anything above that was uncomfortable because it just, it meant it was cause it wasn't just 15 weekends a year or it wasn't just 15 Saturdays a year because like a third of my weddings were destination weddings. So I was traveling, you know, you leave on a Friday. If it's far enough away, I was actually leaving on Thursday and then you shoot on Saturday and then you come home on Sunday. So it's several days away from home. And then there's also an engagement sessions which may or may not be a destination engagement session. And then I would often go to the walkthrough as well, just as another client touchpoint. And then you would have conversation like it was just, it was starting to take up more time on my calendar than I could accommodate while still serving people really well. So 15 was where I was real comfortable and we were typically booking between like 12 and 15. Like it felt good to reach that 15 number, but I, there were a couple years where we didn't.

Shanna Skidmore: (24:59)
So talk through when things started to shift, when you started looking at brand photography and starting your family and all, all of that.

Abby Springmann: (25:06)
Yeah. So like I said, I, I sort of accidentally stumbled into brand photography. Natalie Frank asked me to shoot her brand photos in may of 2016. And I was like, why?

Shanna Skidmore: (25:17)


Abby Springmann: (25:18)
Like, sure. But like, why did you ask me? And she was like, oh me and Jen Olmstead talked, she, Jen was designing Natalie's website. And she was like, we both agreed that you'd be the perfect fit. And I was like, I don't understand where this came from. But like, yeah. Okay, I'll shoot it. And I shot it and I had no plan. I just was like, what does a wedding do? We get the essential details, Like what time do I need to be there? Who's gonna be there. And then we show up and we shoot what's in front of us and we make pretty things. And so that was what I did. And those photos served Natalie really well for a long time. And I, I shared them on my, I did what I always do. I blogged about them. I think I shared a couple of 'em on social media, but I didn't wanna overshare because I, I just was like, it's just a headshot session was what, in my mind, nobody, nobody was calling it branding at that point. It was just like, oh, I'm shooting some portraits for Natalie's website. I, I think how I phrased it. And then I guess Jasmine star saw them because then I got an inquiry from someone who was like, Jasmine star referred me to you. And I was like, come again. Like what.

Abby Springmann: (26:14)
If you told the 2011 Abby that Jasmine Star would've referred someone to, I would've lost my ever loving mind.  um, and so like, I this is, this client's name was Karen. So I shot for Karen. And then Karen worked in real estate and then another real estate agent heard of me. And they hired me to shoot their brand photo. And she just was like, it was all word of mouth. But like, I was like, I'm not talking about this. Like, I'm not doing the word of mouth advertising here. Somebody else is doing it for me. And it was one of those rare instances where somebody else saw something in me before I saw it myself and it started to pick up momentum. And I think it was, I was doing brand photography differently than other people. I mean, save the like first few sessions where I just was like, am here with camera. What should I shoot? Like the, the more I realized like, oh, in order for these images to be, to like go to work for my clients, to help them market, there needs to be a strategy behind these more than just what is pretty, because wedding photographer, like a lot, like I wanted to capture the authentic emotion of a day. I wanted to tell a true story, but I also wanted to photograph really pretty things because that's what publications were asking for. And so I had to get out of the mindset of a wedding photographer of just photographing what was pretty. And instead ask, what's gonna be practical and what's gonna be purposeful and what's gonna help my clients fill the holes in their marketing plan that they, they are not currently that that are currently empty because all they've ever had are pretty photos. They've had pretty business, head shots and pretty photos of them smiling at a laptop. And I'm just like, stop smiling at your laptop. There's gotta be something that's a little bit more intentional that actually speaks through the screen to tell people what you do, because if you're just smiling at your laptop, all I know is that you own a $2,000, 15.5 inch MacBook pro. That doesn't tell me that you're a financial advisor for creatives that doesn't tell me that you're a wedding planner or a calligrapher. Like, what do you do? And then how can I create photos that help speak to that? And so it was this intentional realignment of like the purpose with the pretty, that, that, that was where things started to, to break away from the pack. And so

Shanna Skidmore: (28:14)
The purpose with the pretty, um, I mean, you just nailed it right there. That's so good, Abby.

Abby Springmann: (28:18)
Yeah. And, and I think it was, it, it was one of those moments where I saw, I was so tired of seeing bad brand photos that I was like, I, it was almost like a throw your pencil down. Like I can do better than this. And you get up and you storm away from your desk and then you go and you do better than that. And so it started picking up speed kind of on its own. And then in, in early 2019, we had started the adoption process about six months beforehand. So Matt and I were having this like yearly meeting in February. So two months late, um,  of like, where do we want our money to come from this year? It was our first real like CEO type meeting. We had just read the book traction. Which if you like, if your listeners haven't read traction, just stop. Well, let finish listening to this, but then go read traction.

Shanna Skidmore: (28:59)
I haven't even read traction.

Abby Springmann: (29:00)
You haven't read traction! You're friends with Nancy Ray?

Shanna Skidmore: (29:03)
Yeah.

Abby Springmann: (29:05)
Nancy Ray was like the evangelizer for traction.

Shanna Skidmore: (29:08)
Okay you're gonna just cringe when I say this, but I don't read a lot of business books.

Abby Springmann: (29:12)
That's okay. I don't either. Traction is one of the few.

Shanna Skidmore: (29:15)
Okay. I'm putting it on the list. I think they're amazing. But sometimes I'm just like, there's so much already in my brain anyways. Okay. Traction it's on the list. We'll link it below

Abby Springmann: (29:23)
Okay. Yeah. So we read traction and we were going through sort of the traction, like EOS, like 5, 3, 1 year planning model. And we're looking at like, I was starting to feel tired and like burned out from weddings. And I was, I just wanted an offramp. And so I was, was like, well, brand photography seems to be picking up speed on its own. Maybe we can just more intentionally tap into that. So, okay. Looking at our yearly sort of allocation of where we want income to come from. What if we intentionally started talking about brand photography? Not just like accidentally booking sessions on the side. And so we decided to officially launch the offer. We made a plan to launch the offer in May. And I was like, well, before we launch the offer, I know that I need a little bit more in my portfolio to feel like this isn't just a, Hey, I shot one or two brand shoots and like, now I'm presenting this thing that I'm doing. Like, it needed to look like a, like a tested, verified offer. Uh, which it was, I just needed a little bit more variety. So I went out and I sought two to three clients who I could shoot for and help craft an intentional session that would show off what I could do that at the same time that it served their business's needs. I call them beta clients. And this is something I teach my students like beta, when you're trying to launch a new offer, you have to show people that yes, you can do it for more than just one other person. A verified offer. Like you can, and we've we have launched unverified offers and then cried in my Pinot noir at the end of the night. Like, well, I didn't, well, I didn't it, so the way I wanted it to it's like, because you couldn't prove to other people that someone else had paid you money and you got the results that you said that you would get. And so my assistant calls this real talk, Abby, it's like, when I get on my soapbox

Shanna Skidmore: (31:06)
I love real talk Abby  and we just referenced Pinot Noir so yes. Let's move on. This is so good.

Abby Springmann: (31:11)
Yeah. Um, so we had the beta clients, I launched the offer in may. Um, and then like, within a couple of months we were fielding requests from like dream clients. And it was because I I'm convinced that the reason was because one, I took a strategic approach to something that everyone else was approaching very casually. But then two that when we launched the offer, we launched it as an actual verified offer. There was a website that went, actually, the website came later. Now that I'm thinking about it, but it was presented professionally that it wasn't just like an Instagram post. Right. It was an Instagram post. There was an email that went out to a newsletter about it. There was a blog post, like it became an official, um, talking point in our business, not just something that I referenced every once in a while, but like an intentional, like place where we were putting efforts in our business to try and book revenue, not just like catch whatever came our way. And so that was, that was may of 2019. We also knew like when we, when we started looking at changing our income streams in our business, that like, we were gonna hopefully become parents soon. And that I wedding photography just didn't feel, I, I didn't wanna be doing, I didn't wanna be away 15 weekends a year. Um, and so as much as it was a passion pivot, like I don't feel as passionate about weddings, where can we start to diversify? It was also like a lifestyle pivot. I wanted our business to serve our life. And this was how I envisioned it doing that. And it just took off a lot faster than I was expecting it to. And then, like I said, in may of 2021, we officially stopped taking weddings. We had, we had been drawing down slowly on it, but then like may of 2021 was our, was our last official booking.

Shanna Skidmore: (32:48)
Yeah. Oh my goodness. I love this story. So I need to ask you and your husband worked together. How long has that, how long have you been working together and how did that happen?

Abby Springmann: (32:59)
Yeah, so I really needed help. Um, I realized with my goals in business, I could not keep doing everything by myself. I needed some help cuz things were starting to fall through the cracks. And I could outsource to as many contractors as I wanted. Like I could outsource my album design, I could outsource my editing, but I really needed someone who was like there for my business. And I was talk, I had a mentoring session with Kaitlyn James and I was like, I just really need help. And like, I'm afraid of hiring an admin because what if they leave me? And she's like, well, weren't you just talking about the fact that your husband's offered to help you with your business? And you said, no, because he's not a photographer. Like maybe you should look there. And I was, she said it a lot more gently than that.  In her sweet Kaitlyn James voice. She was like, Abby, like your husband wants to help you. And like also Matt was dying at his day job and she was like, wouldn't it be so amazing if, if you guys could work together and he has these administrative gifts and like, you could be the one that like helps get him out of this job that is slowly killing his soul. Like, could you consider that? And so it was 2015. We started very small pieces. I gave Matt one project and it was a print shop. And I said, I wanna start a print shop. You are in charge of making the website happen. You're in charge of getting all of the backend things to talk to one another. And like, you're gonna be in charge of shipping and all of that kind of thing. Like, are you interested? And he said, yes. And he totally crushed it. And then in April of 2016, he left his full-time job. He was still part-time with them, um, two days a week, right up until the pandemic. And then, uh, he went full-time March 2020.

Shanna Skidmore: (34:31)
Wow. That's amazing. Yeah. Okay. Working with spouses is always fun to talk about. I wanna tell me more about this. I'm sure it's a traction thing, but had you guys sat down and what was your relationship with money? Like, I mean, you're working together. Your business is your sole income. I mean, was this something you guys were talking about? Did you know the numbers or tell me about just like the numbers let's talk about it.

Abby Springmann: (34:53)
yeah. So I hate money. Like even as I was sitting, you you'd sent the questions over ahead of time, just to kind of get an idea of what we were gonna talk about. And I started getting nervous, like looking at some of the questions about money because I even now, like I've been in business for 12 years at this point and I still get uncomfortable with money. And I think it was because I grew up in a home where there wasn't enough. And so anytime like an unexpected expense came, it was always a pain point. Like I remember asking my dad for, Hey dad, I need a new pair of point shoes for ballet. And it was like a, I could see the internal like, oh, where's that money gonna come from? And so I just, I don't like money at, and I, I, I like having enough of it, but if I don't have enough of it, I'd prefer not to know which is not like a wise place to be. And so that was, I mean, that was how I started. I started just like, ignorance is bliss. You know, like if I don't, I, I like I'm okay. Like if I don't know how much money I have and um, because money made me feel stupid and like ashamed, I was like, well, as long as I don't know what money's in the bank account, then I like, that's still a stupid shameful thing to do it. Just, none of it made any sense, but I money made me wanna bury my head under the sand. And so, um, when Matt came in, he was more in charge. He was in charge of, um, expenses. And like, but there still wasn't a lot of like financial literacy there for me, it was just like, do we have enough for me to pay for this thing? Great. And we, I mean, we always had money in our bank account and I knew that we needed to have a significant chunk in there, but there was never a designated like number of like how much, I didn't know how much money it cost me to run my business every month. And so I just knew that there was kind of like a line under which like, oh, if I have less than X number of dollars in my bank account, then I'm uncomfortable. And if I have more money than that, then I feel comfortable not taking into account, you know, the cost of doing business. And again, how much money it costs me to run my business every month. So it's been a, it's been a slow process of, um, not coming in and us, like, not just okay, at the end of the year, how much money did we make? But like, we have quarterly meetings of how much money did we make and what was our profit margin and is that where we want it to be and how much money do we want coming from each sort of offer from our business? How much do we want coming from brand photography? How much do we want coming from education, from our shop, from collaborations or affiliate, you know, income. And it's something that I'm still, like I said, still uncomfortable with because I, I love doing what I do. And I don't like that a number can make me feel like I'm not good enough. Like, oh, you didn't make enough. That must be because the offer wasn't good. That's not necessarily true. Sometimes you didn't make enough because you didn't have enough human eyes on your offer. And so learning to divorce, the, the finances from the feelings has been like a years long process that I'm still working on. And I will say the more I know about my numbers, the better I feel. Because it's, it's not just this black hole of, there's not enough. Therefore you are condemned it's, Hey, there's not enough, but we know why there wasn't enough and we know what went wrong and we know how to fix it. So that's a really long answer to a short question, but

Shanna Skidmore: (38:03)
No, it's so good. I, I wanna like for somebody who, you know, listening, who isn't comfortable with their numbers, or they don't know where to start, or what do you feel like has helped you guys? Is it, you know, giving that role to Matt, having more regular meetings? Like what are you, what has helped you in the conversation?

Abby Springmann: (38:24)
Yeah. I think, I think in my mind, at the beginning, just giving it all to Matt was the solution. Cause I was like, then I don't have to think about it. And it's like, but that's,  that, that doesn't like, you, you're still putting your head in the sand. Like, you need to know what's happening in your business because Matt might be the finance guy, but like we strategize together. And if I'm over here, not knowing that we're bleeding money because our expenses are through the roof. Or like, maybe I know that we're bleeding money, but like I'm not strategizing around it just, it doesn't still doesn't do me any good. So like me, I may not need to be in the weeds of our money every single day, but I need to know roughly where we are, because if our strategy needs to change, I'm the one that is, I am one of the best informed people to know how to change it. And, and that being said, like, Matt has become more and more of a strategist inside our business, which I love. So like, we can now look at our finances and say, okay, like maybe the income stream from affiliates is lower than we want it to be. And Matt can, you know, provide a couple of suggestions as to what we could do. And then I'm the one who goes and walks out the strategy. But like, I need to know why I'm doing it. You know, just like go book some more brand shoots. Isn't really helpful for me. Whereas if I know go book some more brand shoots because we're $15,000 under where we're supposed to be. This quarter is a little bit more of a fire under my butt.

Shanna Skidmore: (39:40)
yeah. Oh my goodness. I love Abby. How you said that. That's what I love about the numbers too. When you have a plan, I mean, actually always joke about this. Like I always say, make the plan, work the plan. And it's like, when you know the number it's so much easier when you know the target, it's so much easier. And like you said, even if you're not a numbers person, you're a goal person. Like you can make the goal happen. I love that so much. What would you say? I always ask this question, so, and I know you got it. What would you say is the best thing that you have learned about money?

Abby Springmann: (40:11)
Oh, that's a good question. Ashlyn. Always. I think it's a, I think it's a Ben Shapiro quote, but Ashlyn always tells me she's like, she goes, facts don't care about your feelings, which she usually references in regards to like launch numbers. Like, oh, I really want to bring in a hundred students for our next launch. It doesn't like, it doesn't matter. Facts don't care about your feelings. Like, do you have the number of people on your list that the conversion, the industry standard conversion rate would support that goal number that I have picked out. And so learning to take that approach of it, doesn't like this, isn't a feelings thing. Like. The money that's in my bank account. I don't have to, I can feel however I want to about it, but that doesn't change how much money is in the bank account. I think learning to divorce the finances from the feelings. That mentality has been helpful. That that number neither condemns nor saves me. It's still like, I mean, I'm like sitting here sweaty over here talking about money. Cause I just hate it so much.

Shanna Skidmore: (41:08)
okay. I have one more money question and then we'll move on. Okay. I, I love that. You're Abby, thank you for sharing this. This is even though I'm making you sweat over there, have to reapply, you know, after, because there are a lot of people I have no doubt listening who have very similar feelings and some of the stories on the podcast feel very, nobody has really shared how hard it is. Are there any resources or anything, anything that's helped you? I love how you used the term financial literacy learn what you felt like you didn't know or wanted to learn. Anything that sticks out in your mind.

Abby Springmann: (41:43)
We read rich dad, poor dad a few years ago. And that was a game changer. That was the first step into me not being, not being afraid of money. Um, because it wasn't so much like money is an indicator of your condemnation or salvation so much as it was like, what does money allow you to do? Like what, like where, where does this money give us freedom? And I realized that was the thing that I was really craving was freedom and money either gave that to me or it didn't.

Abby Springmann: (42:09)
And so learning to look at money as in terms of like, what did it enable us to do? And I realized like I really wanted to be able to give more. And so reading rich dad, poor dad, and his sort of overall idea of like, make your money go to work for you was exciting to me because I was like, oh, investing. Isn't just this thing that I need to feel bad about that I haven't started doing yet. Investing is a thing that would actually help us like live out the kind of mission that we desire to live out. Like Matt and I have a fund that we call our Yes Fund that like my desire is that yes fund has like $10,000 in it at any given time. At any time someone in our community has a need that we can just say yes, without question, like when we were adopting, um, when we were going through the adoption process, the first time, like we were in a pinch, like our business was in an awkward place. And like we had family that was like, yes, we can help. No problem. I wanted to be able to do that for people. And so when reading rich dad or dad realizing like that, that, that investing was this thing that would actually enable more freedom in our lives. Not something I needed to feel condemned for. That was a, that was a turning point. We read that in November of 2018. I say we, Matt and I both read it in November of 2018. And like, I need to go back and read it again because I've been, I just, I wanna be reminded of that, that mindset, but like, that was a big change for us. I have never been through blueprint, but I have heard the most amazing things about it from everyone and, and like,

Shanna Skidmore: (43:31)
Come on,

Abby Springmann: (43:32)
I know I need to just, okay, so next time blueprint opens. That's what, what we'll do, because I think that a lot of what you cover in that course is like what I've been missing that would give even more peace and less sweat. Yes. When it comes to the finances

Shanna Skidmore: (43:46)
Girl, yes. I, I, um, thank you for sharing that. And I so resonate with, you know, I worked in finance for five years and when Kyle and I, he wanted to go back to school. I left finance and we were in the same, we had zero money. Like we couldn't even pay our bills and we had people send us money. So I love your Yes Fund. I think that's so beautiful. We have something a little similar, not as intentional as that. And so that's a good challenge for me. I'm taking away. We call it our fun fund. Oh, I love that fun. Uh, so that we can do the same thing because that was so impactful for us. But even working in finance, I hope this gives you some, just a little hug across the mic here. We worked. I worked in finance for five years and I always say I was taught things about finance, but I wasn't taught things about money and how to manage it. And that's why I do what I do now is money can be freeing and it doesn't have to be so yes, join blueprint model. Let's do it. Okay. You talked about, I have a little bit of time and I know this is a very long story, but I would love to hear through your adoption process and pivoting your business. Just, I don't love the word balance. Um, but I also, I love to hear how people find harmony. You're the CEO of your business. You guys rely on your income. And I know as a new mom, that's not easy. Will you just talk through your journey of this life change and how the season has the life season has affected your business?

Abby Springmann: (45:15)
Yeah. So I think the most obvious change that took place was me realizing that the pace I was running at with weddings and the intensity that, that I was running my business with was not in alignment with the kind of mom that I wanted to be. And I thought I had, like, I mean, we waited for four years to become parents. It was a long road. I longed for motherhood. And I still didn't realize until Felix was born in 2019, that like the way we were currently operating was not tenable with the, with the future that I saw for my family. Um, and so, you know, in, in, in February of 2019, so seven months before Felix was born, Matt and I had this conversation of, well, maybe we need to start to diversify our income. And then when Felix was born, it was like, yeah, I think we actually need to change our entire business model. And that's not to say you can't make weddings work and be a mom. There are plenty of people who do that really well. But like I just, with, with the caliber that we were operating at and the frequency at which we needed to book weddings in order to support our family, cuz we were, I mean, Matt, wasn't working full time, anywhere else. Like we were both with my business. He was, he was part-time a couple days a week with his old job, but right. The majority of our like 90% of our income came from my business. And I just couldn't book enough weddings to earn that income and still be the kind of mom that I wanted to be. And so it, yeah, it cha I mean that it accelerated the, the, the, the pivot out of weddings and into brand photography because brand photography allowed me to operate Monday to Friday instead of on weekends. And I was no longer being asked to meet in the evenings around Saturday mornings and. I wasn't gone for several days at a time to shoot weddings, you know, and, and being a mom repri made me realize like the priorities that I had spoken aloud, I actually had to walk them out and walking them out look was a, was a different experience than just planning. Right. Like I made the plan now I had to work the plan.

Shanna Skidmore: (47:09)
Right. Exactly. It's not easy.

Abby Springmann: (47:10)
And, um. No, it's not. And, and, and then when Teddy was born and so, so I will say like, after Felix was born, there was probably like a four to six month period where I just felt a lot of tension of like, yes, I want to continue to run my business with integrity. And I wanna continue to show up at the, at the same caliber that I was, and I wanna be as present as I was, but like, I also really wanna spend time with my son and I, and I wanna be a good and present mom. And how can I do both? And then COVID hit and I didn't have to do both for the, for a long time. And then when things started ramping back up again, realizing like, Hmm, that's, this is the, the, this pivot towards brand photography could not have come in a better time. And then when Teddy was born, Teddy is 12 weeks old. Now, when Teddy was born, it was not the same tension, like soul level tension of, I wanna be able to be the business owner that I was before, but I also wanna be the mom and those two don't feel like they can exist at the same time. I was just like, mom comes over business. And like, I only these days, I only have four hours of work that I can give to my business per day. And I just, it is what it is. I don't feel tension over it anymore. I mean, sometimes I feel a little bit stressed by like, Ooh, I've gotta get these, I have deadlines, but it's no longer like, which one's gonna have to give. There is no question about it. My children come first. My family comes first and my business is there to help me support my clients. But, but to support my family, like if my business has to serve my clients, but it also has to serve my family. And if it's no longer serving either of those parties, something has to change. And so when it came to weddings, we changed the entire business model in order to better support the, this vision that we had for our family.

Shanna Skidmore: (48:39)
Yeah. Abby, I needed, I needed this. I'm like almost over here in tears. Madeline's 16 months old. And you know, I think I, I love what I do, but I have, you know, what, 10 hours right now, it feels like 10 hours a week to work. And so has that made you get very strategic? I love how you said you started diversifying your offers. Just really strategic because we, I, I still need to make money. Like our we both work in the business. So I'm with you. So did that just make you get really strategic with why you're offering?

Abby Springmann: (49:14)
Yes. I think it was someone in my mastermind who said that sometimes the good offers can distract you from the great ones that like, like a good idea can actually be a source of distraction and can actually hamper your business. If you don't take the time to get clear on where you actually need to be going, like almost like squirrel syndrome, like, oh, that looks interesting. You'll chase that idea. And it takes you away from the thing that could make a bigger impact. And so like a word we've been using a lot lately is triage. Like we've had a lot of cool opportunities come our plate. I was asked to be part of a, um, a summit a couple of months ago, which would've been a really cool, like the, the people who are gonna be at that summit. Those are my people. But over these last six weeks, we've also launched a podcast and we're working on adding two new lessons to brand photography academy and we've had brand clients we're still serving. And I had a week away at CEO week. Like there have been a lot of other great things happening. And I knew that if I said yes to the summit, which was a good idea and a good opportunity that it was gonna come at the expense of one of the great ones. And so it's required being really honest with ourselves, uncomfortably honest with ourselves and having to give more nos outs to people than I was used to giving. And I like, I mean, you're talking to the girl who literally has a keynote talk called the gentle no, I have no problem with boundaries. I love boundaries. But like I had to be, I, I felt like I, before Teddy was born, I was living like, I was pretty solidly in like CEO camp was one of my business, like a business owner and then Teddy came and it was like, no, you like actually have to put your big girl pants on now. Yeah. Yeah. And so it's been, it's been really cool and really refreshing and, and like, I love the challenge of sifting through the good versus the great. Yeah. I love it. It's it doesn't mean it's not hard, but it does mean like this new season of business for us about putting big girl pants on and actually living in this a call it, the artisan CEO realm like that, like it means we're getting some really amazing stuff done and making a bigger impact than I could have when I was still saying yes, to like 80% of the things that came across our plate.

Shanna Skidmore: (51:16)
Yeah. Yeah. I say to Ashlyn all the time, I'm like, we have to be professional sifters like, yes, hold the gr I love, I I'm wrote that down. The good can distract from the great that's so good. You haven't mentioned, you know, you, you pivoted into brain photography and added education around the same time or

Abby Springmann: (51:34)
So we, I started educating, I mean, you, you asked me earlier, what did you blog about every day? I loved teaching, even though I did not have much to teach , but I will say, I think sometimes people want to learn from someone who's one to two steps ahead of them, as opposed to someone who's like five years ahead of them. So I've been teaching informally since almost the beginning. We launched our first, uh, online course in 2016, um, for wedding photography and it did okay. Um, I think that's one of the reasons I've actually loved being in, in brand photography so much is like, I'm really, really good at brand photography. I was a good wedding photographer, but I was one of many. With brand photography I am one of very few choices who does what I do at the caliber that I do it. Right. I, I would, I, it's a really cool place to, to, to be, to say like, I don't really have any competition and that's not to say there aren't, aren't other great brand photographers out there. It's just, my niche is so firmly defined that I don't have anybody else who's competing for the Ashlyn Carters and the Mary Marantzes and the Kailyn James's like, that's my

Shanna Skidmore: (52:36)
Shanna Skidmore. I'm emailing you.

Abby Springmann: (52:37)
Yes. Yes. Thank you.  um, but like, that's like that those are my people, right? So with education, like we had wedding photography education out there, but it never really caught on the way that I wanted it to. And then when I pivoted into brand photography, I didn't wanna teach on brand photography. I was like, no, no, no. I like that. I'm the only one who does what I do The way that I do it, I have a secret formula. I'm not sharing that. And then bless Kaitlyn James's heart. I love her so much. This is like the fourth time I mentioned her  I was shooting Kaitlyn's portraits and she was asking, so like, are you thinking about educating on this? And we'd gotten so many people who had asked, when are you gonna teach a workshop on this? And I was like, no, never. And Kaitlyn was like, Abby, don't you think that maybe there are some photographers out there who could benefit from an extra stream of income. And like, if you shared your process, like there are clients out there who need them, who, who can't afford to hire you? Like what a gift that would be for you to teach your process. And I'm like, yeah, Kaitlyn. You're right. Love.

Shanna Skidmore: (53:32)
I love your Kaitlyn voice.

Abby Springmann: (53:34)
Yeah. She, she is so good at like gently seeing someone else's flaws. And, and like with grace calling those out and convicting you of like, man, I'm being really selfish here. Aren't I . Yeah. So, um, we introduced brand photography academy last spring, and it just took off like wildfire. And it was because this was like me living in the, like, I firmly believe, like I was called to brand photography. And I don't believe that any step of my journey was a mistake. You know, the Lord works all things together for the good of those who love him. So I was in wedding photography for as long as I was supposed to be in wedding photography, but stepping into brand photography, I'm like, oh, this is what it looks like to have a unique offer to not just like, be putting the same stuff into the cespool that everyone else is drinking in drinking from. But to have something truly unique to offer the world that people are hungry for. That's why people respond to a good offer because it's, it's not been done a hundred times before. So anyway, that was a again long answer to a short question. Yes. We also launched brand photography education, but I had been in the education sphere for quite some time. I just never had anything original to offer .

Shanna Skidmore: (54:41)
Where is this quote, Abby? I know you've heard it, a candle loses nothing by lighting another candle. I wish I knew. And I used to struggle with that quote so much because I think what you said so many people feel like I don't want to create a bunch of other people and I love how Kaitlyn said that. And I'm sure you've learned this now. Like, you know, I never thought I would teach on scaling an offer, you know, or something, but it's like, that changed my business. That changed our family finances. Why am I not sharing more about that? So anyways, I, I love, I think with time you're able to open your hands more freely mm-hmm um,

Abby Springmann: (55:20)
Especially when you realize like other business owners, aren't a threat, like when, and I think a lot of that comes from insecurity of like, oh no. What if I do is actually really replicable. And like, I, I, we real, I really struggled with that, like up until like a week or two, before we launched the beta version or like launched applications for the beta version of brand photography academy, like, do I wanna do this? Do I want to create? And it was, for me, it was coming from a place of scarcity, not abundance. Like I felt like I should be teaching this, but I didn't want to, because I was being selfish. And that's not to say that anyone who doesn't wanna teach the process of being selfish at all, it was that I knew there was a calling and I was actively resisting it. And then when we opened it up and real, and I will say this, furthermore, like if we didn't release brand photography academy, someone else was gonna teach the process. And it was like, okay, do I wanna be first to market and stake my claim? Or do I wanna wait until I'm like one of 5, 6, 7, 15 options? And then it's no longer as attractive. So there's a strategic advantage to being, to, to sharing your process. But then there's also like, where are you called? If you're called to this. And something is pressing on your heart telling you to share. And you, you say, no, that's where I feel like that's, you may be living out of alignment.

Shanna Skidmore: (56:27)
Mm-hmm, , that's so big. Yeah. Because some people, like, I love teaching about finance and I've always been like, I don't teach about marketing. I don't teach about, I can talk about those things. I have a story to tell clearly, but I don't teach it. So yeah. It's like, but is that your calling? And if so, walk into it. And there's another quote. I shared it on a podcast years ago. It is not my quote. And somehow I think I'm Pinterest. It went viral as a Shanna Skidmore quote. It's not for everybody listening, but it says, no one is you. And that is your power. Mm. And again, I did not believe that for a long time when people start using similar language or, and also there's just kindred spirits out there that think like you, you know, mm-hmm, , there's a lot of people. So owning that and knowing that like, nobody's, you, nobody is gonna share like you or be like you. So anyways, all lessons learned. Abby, I love your story. I wanna go into kind of a quick fire round to wrap us up. And this has just been such a joy to I've I've taken so many notes over here, myself, so thank you. Okay. Let's quick fire some questions. The first one I think is one of the hardest, but what is one thing that you would be embarrassed if people knew about business or personal or anything?

Abby Springmann: (57:34)
Uh, I did not pay sales tax for my first two, maybe three years in business. And I was willing to accept the consequence for it, which was like $2,000 in fees. But I just was like, I was so afraid of money. I just didn't. I, I willingly ignored it.

Shanna Skidmore: (57:49)
Yeah. Oh my goodness. I'm so glad you shared that. Somebody on the, I had a talk just the other day where somebody didn't pay taxes, so it happens. And now you learn, I'm proud of you for talking about money.  I have to go take a shower after this. Okay. I know  next question. Are there any wish you could do over moments again in business or personal?

Abby Springmann: (58:11)
Um, I mean, I really do believe like that the, the Lord works all things together for the good of those who love him. So anything that I have, any missteps that I've made, that those can be used for, for his glory? That being said, I, yeah, I do have, gosh, I have this one do over moment where I opened my mouth at a retreat one time, and I said something that I meant to be a joke and it really hurt somebody's feelings because I didn't filter. And she came and talked to me afterwards. And I like to this day, like cannot think about that moment without my cheeks heating with shame. Which so, yeah. I don't know if there's like a practical lesson there other than Abby really sometimes needs to think before she speaks. . Um, but yeah, that's it.

Shanna Skidmore: (58:50)
Do you like the Enneagram? Are you a person?

Abby Springmann: (58:54)
Everyone asks me this and I am one of those I'm like, I don't believe in the Enneagram because it feels like business horoscopes and someone was like, what do you mean you don't believe in it? Like it's a thing whether you wanna believe in it or not

Shanna Skidmore: (59:03)
Well, I just thought it would be interesting knowing I have a tendency to rethink all my, what I said over and over and over again as well. So I was wondering if you,

Abby Springmann: (59:13)
I, I do, apparently I'm an eight I, Yeah. That's what I've been told. I am. I took the test because I was tired of people being like, you're such an eight and then I took the test now was an eight. I was like, ah. Um, but yeah, I do ruminate a lot.

Shanna Skidmore: (59:27)
Okay. Next question. What would you say is a big win or a pinch me moment?

Abby Springmann: (59:34)
Um, when Mary Moran's most recent book came out strong, uh, slow growth equals strong roots, and my photographs were inside the pages of her book.

Shanna Skidmore: (59:43)
Amazing.

Abby Springmann: (59:44)
That's pretty cool. Yeah.

Shanna Skidmore: (59:44)
That's amazing. And I love that title, so

Abby Springmann: (59:47)
Good. Oh, it's so beautiful. I

Shanna Skidmore: (59:48)
Putting it on the list. Okay. Next question. What is the best advice you have ever received?

Abby Springmann: (59:55)
Good for her, not for me. It was an Amy Poehler quote in her book. I think it's yes, please. Is what it's called. And she talks about, Hey, that thing over there is like great for her, but it's not necessarily for me. And I'm a very, very competitive person, such an eight, right.  um,

Shanna Skidmore: (01:00:13)
Enneagram follower.

Abby Springmann: (01:00:16)
Um, I'm very, very competitive. And so anytime I saw someone getting something or checking off a box, I, I thought I needed to do that too. And I needed to do it better and bigger and faster. And then that permission for like people to be on different paths to success. And that I always hypothetically knew that was a thing, but, um, for, to be able to say good for you, I released myself from that same obligation was huge.

Shanna Skidmore: (01:00:37)
Yeah. Oh, I love that. Okay. Last quickfire question. What are you working on now? Or what is one resource that you would like to share?

Abby Springmann: (01:00:46)
Can I tell people we're releasing a podcast?

Shanna Skidmore: (01:00:49)
No. Are you kidding?  open hands, candle lighting. A candle. Let's go.  yeah. Abby, tell us about your podcast.

Abby Springmann: (01:00:57)
Yeah. So we just, um, like the trailer dropped today and well, I mean, today is, today is Monday, August 1st and we're, we're releasing the podcast next week. The artisan CEO is, uh, the name of the podcast. It's where the art of photography meets the business of profits. And so we're talking about how to be like both fully live into your creative identity, as well as being like a killer business owner. And that those two don't have to don't have to be oil and water. They can coexist very harmoniously.  contrary to what a lot of artists think.

Shanna Skidmore: (01:01:28)
Uh, I'm loving this concept. Absolutely. Okay. The Artistan CEO will link it. It'll be out now when this comes live. Yay. Yeah. That's so exciting. Okay. Take us all the way back. Let's send it off with this to 2009. When you were in the dark room, what would you tell yourself way back then on day one of this kind of unofficially officially starting your business,

Abby Springmann: (01:01:53)
Take a finance class.

Shanna Skidmore: (01:01:55)


Abby Springmann: (01:01:57)
I wish that had been required. I really, really wish that had been required. Um, yeah. Practical advice would be take, take a finance class, um, whether that's blueprint or if you're still in college, you can get into a finance class, like do it. On a more like esoteric level. There's this John Acuff quote that says, uh, stop comparing your beginnings to someone else's middle. It's often a quote quote. It's often credited to Anne. She, because she made this beautiful graphic for it, but it's a John Acuff quote. And I love that because I am someone who does compare a lot. I am someone who's very competitive. And that again, being released from the expectation of like my day one doesn't is not gonna look like her day 997 and that's okay. And that's a good thing. And to allow myself to grow at my own pace,

Shanna Skidmore: (01:02:38)
Abby, what a joy it has been to talk to you today. Thank you for sharing your story for sweating through the money conversation.  and love. You said take a finance class. Yes. We'll plug your podcast. We'll plug blueprint model. Yes. I'm just so grateful to know you. I think you are such a joy and I wanna hang out more. So let's book a brand shoot

Abby Springmann: (01:02:59)
Done

Shanna Skidmore: (01:03:00)
Grateful for you. Thank you for your time today.

Abby Springmann: (01:03:02)
Thanks Shanna.

Shanna Skidmore: (01:03:03)
Hey Wildflower, you just finished another episode of Consider the Wildflowers, the podcast. Head over to considerthewildflowerspodcast.com for show notes, resource links, and to learn how you can connect with Abby. One final thought today from John Acuff, don't compare your beginning to someone else's middle. Have a colorful day.