Revolutionizing the Skills Promise

On this episode of Digital Squared, Tom talks with Geoff Watson, President and Chief Business Officer at Minerva Project, a company working to revolutionize higher education. Together they discuss how building Minerva University has created a new model that they are now sharing with other open-minded institutions, the challenges and intentionality of systemic change, and the type of learning that technology can’t replace.

Transcript

Intro  0:00  
Welcome to Digital squared, a podcast that explores the implications of living in an increasingly digital world. We're on a mission to inspire our listeners to use technology and data for good. Your host Tom Andriola is the Vice Chancellor for Information Technology and data and Chief Digital Officer at the University of California at Irvine. Join us as Tom and fellow leaders discussed the technological, cultural and societal trends that are shaping our world.

Tom  0:31  
On this episode of digital squared, I talked with Jeff Watson, President and Chief Business Officer at Minerva Project, a company dedicated to revolutionizing higher education. Together, we discuss how building Minerva University has created a new model that they are now sharing with other open minded institutions. We talk about the challenges and intentionality of systemic change, and the places in learning that technology can never replace.

Tom  0:57  
Jeff, welcome to the podcast today. 

Jeff 0:58
Yeah, it's great to be here, Tom. Thanks a lot. 

Tom 1:03
So Jeff, you and I have known each other for a while and you've been with different organizations, and you've had such a varied career. But tell our audience how did you get to where you're at now with Minerva, tell us about the path. 

Jeff 1:15
It's been a winding journey with I would say a couple of core themes, which one is a search for purpose and impact. And the other is a desire to build and grow things. And those two themes have really threaded throughout my journey. There have really been three big chapters to my career. The first chapter was spent building global consumer brands for Procter and Gamble and General Mills, at big New York ad agencies. And it was exciting. But there was something big that was missing for me, which was really a sense of purpose. And that was well before the idea of mission was popularized and part of our vernacular. I went to business school and came out to Silicon Valley to really be a part of the startup world. And that was really the second chapter. I spent several years in fast growing enterprise software companies. And again, I knew I needed something that resonated more deeply on a personal level. And that really brought me into the third chapter, which was getting deeply involved in the education and learning technology space, I joined my first education company, which was called the Intrax troll exchange. And it was operating a wide variety of International Education Programs bringing 10s of 1000s of participants from around the world predominantly to the US every year. And I knew pretty quickly that I really loved the idea of creating life changing educational experiences, and the potential that those held for people and society. And then over the last 10 years, I've worked at three really iconic education ed tech companies, one called Entangled, which was an education venture studio. Second Guild which actually acquired, entangled, and Guild is the leading workforce mobility company. And now I'm at Minerva Project, which is an innovation partner to institutions around the world, 

Tom 3:40
When you were with Entangled is when you and I first met. Yes, yeah. And so from the time, I was introduced to Minerva, I was a huge fan. Went very early on to meet the founder, Ben Nelson, who's your colleague now. And I've been a big fan because it sits at the intersection of education and its need for reform and evolution, technology and innovation. But for many of our listeners, they probably don't know Minerva. So can you talk about the Minerva story for audience? 

Jeff 4:15
Yeah, absolutely. And it's a unique story. Minerva started 10 years ago, as you said, by Ben, and he had a bold vision, that education had really lost its way and needed to nurture critical wisdom for the sake of the world. And that's actually Minerva 's mission, nurturing critical wisdom for the sake of the world. And Ben had a very unusual long range plan. And phase one of that plan was to build what has become one of the most if not the most innovative university in the world called Minerva University, based on learning science in a very different educational model that was active learning oriented interdisciplinary at its core. Durable, skills based, tech enabled, and highly experiential, and truly global and MU was launched and very successfully against all odds and anyways, and became its own self standing accredited university a few years ago. That was phase one. Phase two was for Minerva Project, which I lead. And that's the company to bring all of that know how, and intellectual property in the best practice, developed in launching Minerva University, and really bring that to other institutions around the world who want to innovate. And that's what we're engaged in every day at Minerva Project now, and I'm happy to talk more about what we do and how we do that. 

Tom 6:02
You know, I recently saw Ben do a video with Sam Altman. And I think of Minerva as the Ed Tech version of AWS, Amazon and AWS. Right. The university built a new, better model, and then it's exported aspects of 3d models special and now are giving it to others to drive their own innovation cycles. But now, in the age that we are now and what's happening around the frenzy of AI, are there specific things that are coming to mind and what you're doing to Minerva Project based on kind of that interaction, and let's say growing like mindedness? 

Jeff 6:39
This is a really critical inflection point for education globally. And I call it, Tom, an emperor has no clothes moment for global higher ed. There is a skills gap that's well documented, a demographic cliff, that's looming, there's declining perception of higher ed. And now on top of it dramatic technology change in the form of generative AI. And in the midst of this, most universities are still using an educational model from 100 plus years ago, which is the kind of lecture test model. But now, and the reason why I call it an emperor has no clothes moment, is you've had two technology innovations over the last 20 or so years. One is Google, where students have access to all the information in the world. And now you have chat GPT, where students have access to virtually all the answers as well. If you have all the information and all the answers, that old style lecture test model has truly become obsolete. And how does this connect to Minerva? Minerva is always focused on the building of Core durable skills, critical thinking, collaboration, communication, that really transcend disciplines. And they demand real deep learning, and the application of different concepts across contexts. And that's really what's going to be needed in the AI age is the ability to really deeply learn, not just take information, and then immediately forget it. But learn and apply across contexts. And that's really at the heart of the Minerva approach.

Tom  8:44  
So when you talk about deeply learn, how is this different than here's the contents, and here's 10, practice problems, do it until you get it perfect. Right. And then also just if I could append to that, and now talk about how you think the application model is different for the generation of business and society that's ahead of us. 

Jeff 9:00
So the model is very different if you think about how most, let's say new programs are developed at universities. And by the way, 70% of new programs that were developed over the last five years have failed. The way it usually happens is you have a faculty member who has some disciplinary expertise and who has some interest in creating something new and they spin up a new program, and maybe you get some instructional designer help. That's really the core model. What Minerva does when we work with institutional partners is we start with the skills that the institution wants to embed and really impart to students. And then we create a learning taxonomy. That is one of the big kind of cores of the Minerva approach is translating those skills that you're trying to impart to learning taxonomy. And then that learning taxonomy is infused throughout the entire educational experience and the curriculum. And that is both things that are happening, quote in the classroom, as well as things that are happening outside of the classroom. And that's really a fundamentally different approach. It's not this discipline-first perspective, it is a skills-first perspective. But in order to make that happen, you have to have the right pedagogy, you have to have the right curriculum. And then you have to have technology that actually enables you to implement this. 

Tom 10:47
So it's really a fundamental rewiring of the model is what you're talking about. 

Jeff 10:49
Yeah, I think that's right. It's, in some ways, it's going back to basics, but it is a rewiring of the way most educational experiences are thought of or created or delivered today. 

Tom 11:07
Yeah. And if I think about it, you think about some of the criticisms. And I call it the crisis of confidence in higher education. If you take specifically like the employer lens, and the employer view of you're delivering via partially finished product, because they think about it from the standpoint of having those durable skills, ready to go to drop into a job where they're going to give them the application to do this thing that we need done for our company. And we're only partially meeting that with the old model. And you're really starting from that and being able to map it backwards. When I'm curious, Jeff, having done a lot of initiatives over the course of my career in different industries, the challenge of this is not the technology, right? The technology works, that these challenges, the change management is the rewiring of mindsets, before we start talking about new tool sets, in the Minerva Project, what are the learnings as you work with institutions with respect to dealing with the change management that this new approach requires? 

Jeff 12:08
I would say pre pandemic, to frame this, I think there was a small group of innovators in the higher ed world who were trying new things. And that's often the case in a market. But the pandemic really accelerated a realization that universities need to change in a fundamental way. And what I've seen is a movement from innovating around the edges, to really going after some of the core elements of the educational experience. And now we're seeing a broader group of institutions taking up this call to transform. And they're going after what I call the third rail in education, which is actually the core learning experience. And that's what you're getting at, that is the hardest thing to change. And there, there does need to be recognition that innovation requires change management. Yes, that centrally includes getting instructors on board with the change. And one of the kind of best practices that we employ with institutions, is you're often starting with a core group of faculty. For example, at the University of Miami, we help them create a Cross University accelerated degree program in innovation, technology and design. And in order to do that, we needed a level of collaboration, we needed to help create a level of collaboration across the institution that hadn't happened before. And we created a team of what we ended up calling Innovation Fellows. And I think this is a really important thing, which is, you find faculty who are very bought in, you demonstrate success. And then you really roll that out across an institution. And that's a model that has been very effective for us and our partners. 

Tom 14:23
The model you're talking about is very, totter, s great change management, find your early adopters by and demonstrate success and build on it by listen to Joe Glover who just stepped down as provost at University of Florida and he made a statement to his peers across the country that I really loved. He talked about that systematic change is a team sport. And I love that phrase, right? Because you mentioned earlier that pre pandemic it was around the edges. We tend to be really good in higher education at doing the pilot project, the small scale controlled experiment, but scaling those innovative successes to the higher institution is not a strength of higher education. I think you and I would agree. Yes. And I think the roles like presidents, chancellors, Provost, they're coming to understand that we're talking about systemic change here. We need a strategy to scale, if we're going to meet the challenges of the day. And I think this is where the Minerva Project is right at the crosshairs of getting those issues on the table for institutions, and hopefully helping them navigate their way through. 

Jeff 15:30
Yeah, I'll give you an example, Tom of something that I'm seeing every day and talking to President and Provost, which is now an interest in actually transforming the general education or core curriculum. And that was something that was never touched for decades. And honestly, most institutions, it may have been tweaked here and there, but it has not been addressed. And now there's a recognition that most students experience in their first year, maybe their first two years of university is really via that that gen ed or core curriculum. And in most cases, it's fragmented. It's lost its purpose. And there's no sort of unification and practical application of that ged ed experience. And as a result, things like high stop out rates, low persistence, and I think university leaders are starting to recognize that if you want to transform, you actually have to go after the core, and really elevate that experience and make it engaging from day one. 

Tom 16:52
And not have those two years be some type of gauntlet that only those worthy to be here get through. So you get to the classes that will get you to graduation, we talk a lot in our institution about the institutional barriers that we've constructed, that have made it hard for our students to succeed. But what you're talking about is really another level, is to challenge the fundamental premise of what is the general education component? And, and I say that because to large extent, so my first experience is the issue wasn't really even allowed to come on the table for debate, let alone be open to how are we going to change it? 

Jeff 17:29
Yeah, I mean, you have to recognize that there is a core problem there. And you have to recognize that at some level, the bones of the system are broken. And once you do that, you can start really opening up the space for reimagining what a core curriculum could be like. And again, going back to some of the Minerva principles, something that's interdisciplinary, something that is active learning oriented, something that's really imparting a set of durable skills, and creating a skills promise from the university to all of its learners. And I think those are the types of things that you're able to do when you open up the aperture. 

Tom 18:20
I like that skills promise, certainly as a father of three who wants to see their children not only graduate, but get off the payroll, I'd love a skills promise to be able to hold out there and saying that's wonderful, at least I know that my dollars are going to a good cause. Because skills lead to jobs. So to be here, the so I'm curious as you work with these institutions, who are now let's say, more open to change than maybe they've been in a long time. Is there talk about that the students of this generation are different than the generations that have come before them? And if yes, how are people describing those differences, and then catering our approach to them differently than before?

Jeff 19:02  
Yeah, this may be something that is theme every decade or so. But I think there's pretty strong consensus that modern students are different in fundamental ways. And there's a lot of research behind modern students having lower attention spans, they certainly have access to all the information at all times. And they consume content in very different ways that we did in the past. They live their lives through technology. Technology is not a third thing. It's just something that that is part of who they are. And they're less linear in their trajectories. And they're willing to come in and out of formal education. And sometimes it's not just about willingness, they have to come in and out of formal education. The whole notion of a traditional student has also changed with the majority of students now being beyond that sort of 18 to 22. Classic undergraduate definition, there is a new traditional student, and that student looks different. Oftentimes, they're working adults. They're balancing life, work, family, and education. And I think that this is all part of what the profile of the modern student is like now. 

Tom 20:33
And probably you have to append to that, that well, durable skills tend to be things that we use, no matter what role or what stage of our career we're at. There's an element another element of skills, which are constantly changing, and the half life keeps getting shorter and shorter, where you have to come back in and, and learn the new science behind the field or learn the new tools that are now providing 100x level of productivity in the space. Right. So we're dealing with a generation of much more rapid retooling and repurposing ourselves to be relevant in the workplace. Correct? 

Jeff 21:10
Yeah, and I want to go back to a comment you made earlier, Tom, which is the skills gap is probably one of the most well reported things going on and in education and workplace. Now, employers are saying with clarity and specificity, here are the skills that we need from the graduates of our institutions, and that we're not seeing yet the institutions aren't able to actually change in order to meet those needs. So you have a situation where employers know the skills they need, but they're not able to give the feedback to actually change the academic programs. And the educational providers aren't really able to figure out how do you embed those skills into the curriculum? And how do you infuse that in the educational experience? And I think that's a big part of what Minerva is solving with our partners. 

Tom 22:11
Jeff, what are the ways that the Murray River Project is working with institutions to drive this systemic change? Yeah, so great question. There are three kind of core areas Tom, and we're meeting institutions where they are, but those range from number one, helping create new, really distinctive differentiated programs. As an example creating an accelerated bachelor's degree interdisciplinary degree for university Miami, second area would be transforming entire universities. And we have actually been a part of totally transforming a public university in the UAE, called Ziad, which has gone from a very traditional educational model to a model that's really based on the Minerva approach, which is core interdisciplinary learning, and very experiential oriented. The third area is actually helping to create new universities from the ground up. And we're doing that as an example of Mexico with a new university called the Universidad de Libertad, which is really focused on entrepreneurship and lifelong learning. And Minerva is powering the academic side of the university. And that's been an incredibly exciting adventure for us. 

Tom 23:38
I'd be remiss, Jeff, if I didn't ask a question about the technology that underpins the I'll just call it the Minerva philosophy. Can you talk a little bit for our audience about the underlying technologies and how Minerva is using them in ways that universities haven't in the past? Yeah, I think we've talked a lot about building a skills oriented approach to education. And if you're really going to follow through on that, it takes a different approach to pedagogy, but it also takes a very different approach to assessment. Instead of focusing on these summative, high stakes tests that pervade higher ed, if you really want to build skills over time, you have to give formative feedback. And there wasn't really a system built to enable instructors to provide that feedback, and also enable students to understand where they were learning and where they aren't learning. So we had to build that we created a system called Forum. And it really is the most sophisticated learning enablement system that I think exists to-date And it really is the thing that allows you to go from concept to design to implementation of these very rich educational experiences. 

Tom 25:09
And does the Minerva Project bring forum to institutions that want to adopt it? Or is it a proprietary thing? It's only used by Minerva University? 

Jeff 25:17
Yeah, that's a great question. We absolutely bring it to other institutions. It was originally created for Minerva university. But we have adapted it over time really to meet the needs of a much broader universe of institutions. And I remember seeing it when I did my first tour, but over a small entourage to view Minerva University in its early years, being someone in the technology field for a long time, I was blown away at that point in time in terms of what that platform did. And I just remember talking to people, instructors, who worked with it and said, not only is incredibly robust with respect to assessment and formative feedback, but it's also an intensity level that is very different from how we've taught in the past. But and so it was exhausting for all people involved, because it was so interactive, and so much information. And it was a really, dynamic is not even strong enough a word for what I watched the first Minerva class today that I actually sat through, 

Jeff 26:18
It's really tuned to very active engagement of students. And equity is something that I think is on everybody's mind and how you actually create equity in a classroom setting. And part of that is being able to create a system which engages every single student, and in a pretty consistent and certainly an equitable way. 

Tom 26:45
So Jeff, my last question for you is one that comes up a lot these days, especially with the fear and anxiety that comes with AI and how these technology tools become more and more powerful. With each generation that they roll out. And they seem to roll out faster and faster in terms of the latest thing that we read about that's being unleashed. Education, especially it's a very human industry, education and health care. They're human industries, right? Yeah. And so I sometimes get the question or the argument, it's this is all this technology is great, right? But how do we not lose the humanity? And what we're doing is pose the question like that by let's say, a staunch kind of critic of what you're trying to bring? How do you answer that question?

Jeff  27:24  
I think humans skills, and some people call them human development skills, or durable skills are central to the way Minerva approaches building educational programs. And I think they're more important than ever, to your point, especially in a Gen AI world. And the critical thing, if there's one takeaway from our conversation is, you really need to embed the skills into the fabric of the educational approach. And part of that is holding ourselves to a higher standard. If we are relying on 100 plus year old lecture test model, to just disseminate information, which is mostly forgotten within hours or days of learning it. That is actually the thing that is scarier than any of the technology innovations. But that style of learning is actually what technology can readily replace. The deeper learning and the core human skills is the one thing that will become more and more important. And I think that actually represents a really exciting opportunity for the education system and society at large right now. 

Tom 28:52
Yeah, that's great. That's fantastic. And, Jeff, I'm going to end this with this last question. If you were to look five years out into what what higher education will look like, what are gonna be some of the stark differences that you hope to see from today? 

Jeff 29:06
I would hope to see that number one, people don't fear AI, but they actually see it as an opportunity. And we're starting to see bits and pieces of that. But it's an opportunity to enhance the learning experience. It's not something that you have to guard against. And I think that was the initial reaction of a lot of universities and educators. So how can new technology actually advance our approach to teaching and learning so that I think is a big theme. Another big theme is just getting back to this approach to a core set of skills and we talked about as a skills promise, I think with more and more focus on employability that's the thing that every institution in the world should hold itself to. And my hope is that it is one of the core metrics that now becomes reported upon, and really institutions geared towards what are we creating in our graduates? So those are a couple of themes, Tom. 

Tom 30:22
That's fantastic, Jeff, we're gonna leave it there for today. I want to thank you so much for joining our podcast sharing your journey in the Minerva story, and really appreciate the time today. 

Jeff 30:31
Thanks a lot, Tom. It was great to join you.