Erotic writing with Dark Romance Author Shae Coon

The recent boom in erotic literature in the last few years has been exciting. More people are being open about their sexual interests thanks to authors paving the way for open conversation. In this episode award winning dark romance author Shae Coon gives us her insight on the process of creating kinky characters and the worlds the play in. 

Transcript

Casey: 0:00

All right. Well, welcome back to another episode of come with Casey. as always, we are your hosts. I'm Dr. Casey Sanders. And I'm Carrie Sanders. And, we have a cookie ass

Kari: 0:10

episode today. Well, we have a guest and guest episodes are always my fucking favorite.

Casey: 0:15

Yes, they are. We know that we know that anytime that we've had guests on the conversations have been like super lighthearted and we've had some really, really fantastic people to go through. I mean, we've had, we've had porn stars on, we've had PhDs on. So I feel like that just creates this wide spectrum in the whole realm of sex and sex positivity and educating the public on kink friendly practices. So there was, there was one thing in particular that people had reached out. On to it's a request from us and because of this is such a sharp rise in an erotic literature that we've seen and it may mean it may be like a neat thing, but we see this like it's everywhere

Kari: 0:54

it's fucking everywhere, but then, you know, you ask and you shall receive. So let's introduce our guests and then say how you found her to get short. Yeah, no, get to the point to

Casey: 1:06

ramble. You rambled. Okay. All right. So today we are happy to welcome romance author Shay Kuhn. Shay, how are you doing today? I'm good. How are you guys? Oh, it's been a good day so far. It's been a great day. We've been getting loose, you know, getting stuff done.

Kari: 1:21

But, but the, the, the way in which we found her, I really want you to say, because you came home and you were so excited. And I'm like, What the fuck are you talking about? So go

Casey: 1:32

into that. My excitement was driven by the fact that we had had so many people reach out to us saying, Hey, you're all going to get like an erotic author on. And we had, we'd been like putting it out there. Like we need to find someone that we can get on. The universe heard

Kari: 1:44

you real hard. So,

Casey: 1:48

so I'm taking our son to, to high school one day and we're driving in the car and me and him are having a conversation and we pull up behind this vehicle and in front of me, it's just got this big, like Instagram handle on it and the Instagram handle was, it was Shay Kuhn author. And then it said I think this is like dark romance on the, on the back of it. So this, like, it's staring me in the fucking face. As the universe is, here you go. It's like, here you go. And so I immediately picked up my phone and was like, we're just going to try this out. And I like popped up Instagram, found your page, clicked follow and immediately sent a DM that was like, want to be on a show about

Kari: 2:25

sex?

Casey: 2:28

So yeah, it was, it was an interesting way of getting in contact with us. It really was.

Shae: 2:33

Yeah, it's it's definitely making its money back, I guess.

Kari: 2:38

So, so go ahead and tell us a little bit about yourself.

Shae: 2:41

I'm a mother and a wife. I obviously I've been writing since I was little. About 12 years old, but it's all been dark, but it's mostly been like poetry or just dark stories in general and then just life got in the way, took a very long break. And then about. I'd say about 6 years ago, I started up writing another book, but this time I took a different twist with it and had it be a married couple rather than your usual. You know, instant love or whatever like that, and it was actually about a troubled couple that were having troubles, hardcore, almost on the brink of divorce. And then they decided to bring a little kink BDSM into their life because she was desperate. Or some kind of change to, you know, she felt like she was the man of the house and, you know, just having to take care of kids, you know, be a disciplinarian. And so they were having a troubled marriage and they introduced this into their lives, did what the process, you know, the safe process. And so I just wanted to have a different twist and it took me 4 years to finish it and I was like, what the hell? I'm just going to go ahead and publish it. Published it publisher came, liked it, so unpublished it, republished it, then I picked some stuff up and then republished it. But yeah, my, my inspiration is, you know, Penelope Skye. She's, she's the queen of dark romance. And I just loved how those particular genre or subgenre gives you this Just highs and lows. One time you, you want to throw your phone because you're pissed because he's being a dick, but the next he's bowing at her feet, you know, and so I, I loved that roller coaster ride of just hating absolutely hating the characters because they're mean or. Stick heads or something like that to absolutely adoring'em and falling in love and you know, getting all worked up.'cause they decided to be a little mean in the bedroom, you know?

Kari: 4:37

Yeah. And so where did you get some of the, like BDSM inspiration for this story? Did you do like, do research, was it like personal experience? Like where, like why did your mind go to that being the healing and the relationship in that story? Because it's

Shae: 4:54

a true story. It's a true story between me and my husband. We many times we were on the break. Divorce and it was because I was raised to, you know. Don't depend on anybody, you know, don't especially man don't man stuff like that. And it was very toxic. I found out because. I wasn't maybe I wasn't depending on, but I wasn't letting him do anything. I was, I was the leader I was the man I was the everything and it was freaking exhausting. And, you know, he felt less than what he actually was. And so we just kind of discover and I said, look, I've never told a partner this, but. I just want you to spank my ass when I meet when I'm bad, you know, yeah, because I mean, it just centers you sometimes. And so I, I was always into it. He was a little shocked by it, but I was like, I just, you know, if you're willing to go on this journey with me, you know, who knows what, what could happen. And we took the classes and safety courses. I love that. Yeah, everything like that. And he just, he blossomed, he, I mean, it energized him, it made him feel more empowered and be empowered, even being a submissive, you know, of course, the submissive is typically the real 1 in control because you're the 1 that has the power to say, stop, you know. And so, yes, it was, it's based on a true story. I mean, the stuff in the book that happens later down, obviously that's for sure. Addict effect and kidnapping, blah, blah, blah. You know, but yeah, but it, it, for the majority of the book, it's, it's a true story.

Casey: 6:22

See, that's, that's so interesting to me because you, you've, it sounds like you, not only on a personal note had that dramatic change within your life, but then how did, how was it being able to take that and. Put it on paper to be like, all right, I'm putting this out there for the world to see. I mean, to me, that is, I'm gonna put it like this to me. That's erotic within itself. Unlike a personal being like, I'm putting some very intimate things in here and I'm writing things in and I'm putting this out for the world to see. And so they're getting a piece of me that is not something that everybody has gotten to see. So what was, what was that like in that first, like initial publication to be like, here it is. Let's talk about it.

Shae: 7:03

Actually, it felt good because my family, we are not shy about talking about sex except my dad, you know, my dad's like, oh, my God. But other than that, we're not shy about it. And they've always known. I've kind of had this, this kinky side and stuff like that. So they knew what the book was going to be about. And it meant. You know, started to mimic the change we were having, but they, they haven't read it that far, but they're very proud and they have the book. But, yeah, it was just like, you know, what the hell this is 1, let me back up a little because of this. At the same time, there was this big phenomenon going with this certain franchise and I. It was getting a bit worrisome because it wasn't the truth. Yes, not

Kari: 7:52

at all. Yeah,

Shae: 7:53

and now I am thankful to that franchise in a way because As we get into the interview more of why I think an explosion happened. I think there's, it's not the explosion people think, but we'll get into that. But I was like, you know what? I'm trained. Both of us are trained, I'm going to put in some scenarios, actual scenes that have happened and it felt good. 1, I was getting it out on paper. I was reliving that moment, even though I could go if I want to, but I'm reliving that moment of. Release of hallelujah, you know, and at the same time, it's like, okay, this is the correct way of doing it. Yeah, you know, don't you can't do this, you know, and, and, but I did it in a way where it wasn't shaming anybody that, oh, you're wrong. And so it was just a wonderful release to live it to help others out to, you know, if you want the real thing, this is the real thing. Yeah.

Kari: 8:48

So

Casey: 8:48

see, that's always interesting to me because we've had a number of, of educators and, and people that have, that have said that very same thing. And of course we all know which franchise we're talking about, but whenever people that are actual sex educators, actual therapists that have done the work behind this, that come out and be like, look, what you're seeing is that's, that's not, What this is, there's, there's, you know, violation of consent going on, there's coercion going on. There's all these like negative aspects that's being presented in a way that

Kari: 9:21

it got like glammed up, which were like, it's a beautiful thing, but. Consent is, is the number one in all of, in all of this. And that is something that those franchises happened to do was remove consent. And, and so as well as it was to like bring up this beautiful topic I'm glad that we have authors kind of going through and, and someone that is educated like yourself. Going through and writing what these scenes can actually be and what they should be And I think that's actually what literature has been been lacking, you know, yeah

Casey: 9:56

Especially in romance because I didn't grow up reading any of this stuff as like a fucking cis hetero male. I was not This is not something that was like, Hey, check this out. But I know that you had talked about being exposed to,

Kari: 10:08

Oh, I would steal my mom's books and they were all like, you know, like vampires and you know, which that was hot as shit. But I, I remember like in these books and like reading them and then my mom, like finding him in my room and her being like, are. Are you good? Like, are you okay to read this? And I was like, Mom, I've read like all of them. I'm totally fine. But, but I, that was one of my curiosities was like, I remember it being a thing back in the day and we all know the novel covers, right? With like the muscular man and like the wind blowing, and like, and the girl folding over his arm, you know? And, and like, I remember those, right? It's

Casey: 10:47

like Zool and Ghostbusters. Right. That is such a cute

Kari: 10:50

thing to say. But, but then there was almost like the Silence and and maybe those books were still being out there and maybe I just wasn't privy to it at the time and maybe those was a different part of my life, but I felt like it was really popular and then it like slow down and then now here we are and just these are like gained massive popular. Yeah,

Casey: 11:13

I want the insider view on this because you being you being the author that you are, I'm sure that you have something to tell us about, like, kind of what is what the landscape looks like in terms of erotic literature over the years.

Shae: 11:25

Well, I know it started out still even though the franchise that started kind of this, and that's the thing is I don't think it brought new people to the genre or this phenomenon. I think what it did is it just opened people up to say, oh, okay, well, this kind of stuff is making waves. Maybe I can be a little more open with my reading you know, what I like to read and stuff like that. Yes, don't get me wrong. Ignorant people to get too far. That's where the danger came in, but I think it did also just let people feel a little more relaxed with what they like to read. And then as more and more came in, and then us darker people started coming out more and more. And so I don't really think it wasn't there. It just was quiet something, you know, background, you know, it was something to be ashamed of your guilty pleasure. And I think now it should, it just exploded when people are like, I don't feel guilty about this anymore. I, you know, this is, I'm open with my, you know, my sexuality. I'm okay with beast on human, you know, but, and I think people realized and started to accept, okay, guys, this isn't. It's not porn. It's it's a fantasy. And when you stop trying to make your husband or your significant other or your partner that fantasy, I think people started to understand. Okay, this is just something it's it is literature. I know some people still consider it, you know, porn or, you know, just how I can do that. No, you can't. No, you can't because it's a very sensitive subject because there are tons of triggers that, you know, people aren't okay with. Oh, you're being punished. So I'm going to whip you. Yeah, I'm not okay with that. So you have to be aware of that, but at the same time, you have to write what. What is in your mind? Mm hmm. And, but sometimes also you have to write to market, which I hate that phrase, but it's true. If, if your market that you're following, you know, is not, not really into BDSM and stuff like that, most likely you're going to lose them, and that's fine. That's fine. You got to do what you got to do. But like this, this whole new taboo ban that they want to do. Don't read it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we most, if not all dark romance authors that I've come across put a warning and we get very specific, you know, kidnapping slavery. I actually work with a non non human trafficking organization. I volunteer and I'm on the front lines. So, when that stuff happens in my books. Those people are never going to win. Yeah. I actually tell the truth of some of the process. Some of you can't tell everything that's violation, but I go through that process and so I know, listen, you guys, you need to understand there's kidnapping in here. There's slavery in here. There's. You know, whipping in here, there's consensual, you know, or what do they say? What is it called? Semi consensual or something like that? Force

Kari: 14:38

consensual, non consent. There you

Shae: 14:40

go. There you go. I let them know because for some people that is very, very hot. Yeah, yeah. And for some people it's not and so. You, you, you gotta be careful, but

Kari: 14:54

not everybody is. Have you ever had an editor, like, come to you and tell you, like, Mmm, you gotta take that part out, that might have been a little too much? Oh yeah. You're like, oh

Shae: 15:02

yeah. That's, that's why I don't have editors anymore. Okay, fair. That's why, that's why my book, my books, you'll see probably little You know, mess ups here and there because I just dropped all my editors. I opened them. I started my own publishing company where it's just kind of bare bones. We do the best we can to edit it. But yes, I had one that completely turned my book into a manual. The way they edited it was awful. Took my voice out completely. And then the publisher I was with, yeah.

Kari: 15:35

we hear you loud and clear.

Shae: 15:37

Got it. Yeah, they, they definitely take your, your Your voice along with everything else. So, yes, I, I don't do editors anymore. Okay. I'm, I'm, well, old enough cognizant, cognizant enough and experienced in marketing and writing to, you know, all that enough to know. Don't do that. Yeah. You know, this isn't gonna work. This is a, right now, the, the climate is not in that, you know, that, that's just not where we're going right now. I know what my strengths are. I am not a, you know, male, male or same sex writer. I'm, I'm just not strong on that. I'm not a fantasy writer. Sure. I am trying. But I will do my research. I'll talk to a fantasy writer, or I'll talk to a same sex writer. Mm-Hmm. Because the last thing I wanna do is insult anybody. Sure. Yeah, and especially with same sex that you have to be careful with that, you know, so I'm going to respect those authors and what they do. Because I, I wrote 1 short story and it was only because I love the characters and I wanted to give them their own

Kari: 16:38

story. No, I totally get that. Like if I've never cooked fish, I'm not going to write book about cooking fish, you know, like, and I get that and I respect that. So and because there are some times that I've like read books and I'm like, do you know what you're talking about? So I honestly, I find a lot of, I find a lot of respect in that. And it does seem that you pull a lot of from your books, from personal experiences. And I feel like that's what makes it more authentic and more real and then more relatable, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Casey: 17:08

Yeah, there's, you know, it's, it's interesting that you talk about like fantasy and all that stuff because there is a, will remain unnamed, but very, very popular romantic fantasy series that's been floating around for the past like year or two. What's really, really interesting to me is that. I like to listen to what people that are like fantasy authors or critics say about these kind of things and a lot of times they trash them so hard and I get it like that's part of their job is to is to critique it and all that, but they like pick these things apart and I'm reading them going, Ooh. Stuff that hadn't occurred to me before. So I can imagine it can be difficult, especially whenever you have, like, you're building in the romanticism and trying to appeal to certain audiences while maintaining true to, like, your, your, your world you're creating can be a super difficult thing. Yeah,

Shae: 18:02

I've been fortunate enough. If you go on mine, there's not a lot of reviews because I don't send out arcs. I don't send out beta reads because. That is just going to kill my drive because it doesn't matter if you get 500 to 1000 good reviews, there's going to be somebody who wants to be a dickhead and just, I'm going to make sure I gave you a one star review. Oh, thanks. Appreciate that. Yeah, you know, and, and it'll, I think I got 1, oh, my gosh, there's so much BDSM in this book. It is classified as a BDSM erotic novel.

Casey: 18:37

That's the fucking point.

Shae: 18:39

Yeah, I'm like, and they're like, well, I thought it was suspense. Well, there is, but it's labeled BDSM to protect you. So, you know, this is coming, but yeah, I, I, I just don't even bother with the reviews. I know it doesn't help when you, when you barely see any reviews on a book, they're like, oh, it must not be that good. Well, it is what it is. I'd rather have. You wonder about it then see all these people just being completely ridiculous. Yeah. Nobody's not everybody's gonna like my books, you know,

Kari: 19:10

it's I mean, you're saying, yeah, you're speaking to 2 people that are in the service industry. We get it. And that has nothing even do with our podcast. Like, right. You're a chiropractor. I'm a hairdresser. We are service people. We understand reviews, right? Like I'm a blonde specialist and when people come at me and they'll be like, you made me too blonde. I'm like, are you kidding me? It's in my title, you know? So I, I can absolutely relate to that. I, I a hundred percent understand what what you're talking about. And, and I did kind of want to switch gears just a little bit. You, you had mentioned, you know, being married, having children. This is something that's very close to me. I, you know, I'm married, I have children and, and we run a sex podcast. So I want to ask you how comfortable are you talking with your kids about what it is that you do?

Shae: 20:03

I mean, it's. I don't get into the down and dirties, but I mean, that they, they're fine with it. I mean, it's inspired my daughter to write a fantasy series, obviously

Kari: 20:13

leaving it at fantasy

Shae: 20:16

and she's asked to read some of my books because 1 of the characters is based on her personality. Very, very, Lizzie is based off my daughter's personality. And so, I mean, my. I don't really ask much. I'll tell them about scenes like action scenes or something like that. You know, I did honestly ask my son a question about. Same sex, you know, male and male same sex you know, situation, obviously not the kink part, but I did because my son is homosexual and he's, he's like, well, you know, I don't know about that, but I'm like, okay. Okay. But no, they're, they're fine. And I told him, you know, guys, I'm not going to go with a pin name. I'm going to put it on the back of my car, you know, and they're like.

Casey: 21:00

People are going to know what I do and you guys need to know what I do. Well,

Kari: 21:03

and that's what I'm curious about. Like you've just, you've always left it being like an open conversation. You haven't like hit it from them. Have you ever had a situation where like. A friend of theirs was like, Oh, your mom does this, you know, like, have you ever been introduced to that situation?

Shae: 21:19

No. Actually my, some of my, he's 16, so some of my son's friends have actually asked to read some of my books and I'm like, it is 18 and older, you need to talk to your mom. I'm, I'm not

Kari: 21:31

your parent. Right? I'll send it to you in two years, but

Shae: 21:35

I guess, I guess my son's snuck one to him and they're reading it at school. Like, he takes a picture of him reading it at school. I'm like, Oh, gee,

Casey: 21:46

give me a fucking trouble, right? Oh, well, we're currently in is already on edge. So

Kari: 21:52

yeah, seriously, where we're at. Don't let them see that. The

Shae: 21:57

good thing is, is all my covers are pretty discreet. You know,

Kari: 22:00

it's not the naked woman falling in the arms, you know,

Shae: 22:04

exactly. And so, no, we don't, it's pretty much, Oh, mom's going to write her book. It's like, it's nothing at

Kari: 22:12

all here. And that's super relatable to us. I mean, we, we're not like, Hey kids, come look at our wall of dildos. They know that they exist, but we're not like indulging within that. And they know our podcast room, like. We got curtains up, it's shut every day, it, you know, locked when it has to be. But I think it's important to have discussions with your children to let them know who you are and what you do and your true self, I guess. But I love finding other parents that have the ability to be just as open. And I honestly like, I applaud you for that. I think it's amazing what you do. You put your sticker on the back of your car. Like people know what you do. And I think that's amazing.

Shae: 22:56

Well, I would say, I, I think the first problem I ever, first and only really is when I first started this process, I, of course, designed my own covers. And I was looking at pictures. They were fully clothed, but, or, they had their shirts off, you know, and I'm looking at picture after picture. What I'm seeing is art. What I can use on my cover. Of course, if a little, you know, my little girl walks in and she sees half naked guys. And she's offended for her father. Mom, why are you looking at those? Daddy wasn't like that. I said, baby, daddy knows. You know, and, and to her, I realized Wow, okay, this could really make her think that, you know, mommy's being bad, or why is mommy looking at other men? That's not right. I have, you know, the calendar up with Wonder Act Heiress models. I mean, you can see Andrew in the back. I mean, I do have those. So I had to sit down and explain to her. No, I think your daddy is boy. Sorry. Your daddy's my man. He, I would never I said, honey, I don't see and make a chest and sexy. I don't see that. I see what will sell correct on my book. I am, you know, I said, this is nothing that I want. I have what I want. And so she finally started. Realizing that, oh, okay. Okay. And and just seeing how I treat her father that he is the 1 I find sexy, but that was the 1st time that I stepped back. I was like, okay, wait a minute. Yeah, you know, and I had to kind of get my own room and stuff like that and lock it and not lock it, but, you know, let her know. And if she comes in and I am looking at. You know, I. Looking up a new toy or something like that to use in a book or something, you know I'll shrink it and stuff like that, but that was the one thing that kind of broke my heart a little bit but then Process of what it meant and everything. See, we

Casey: 24:44

had, we have similar things like that happened the way that we love to do it is that for us, it opens up a conversation. And this is for, for me specifically, I won't speak for Carrie on this, but whatever, you know, their kids are seeing any of our stuff and they do have that same mentality of like, wait a minute, you know. Why are you looking at this over here, whatever it may be, our response simply to that is like, you need to understand for these kids, where are and I would not, they don't say this to them, but where our arousal lies, like where our loyalties lie, what we've decided. And that allows us to open up conversations about relationship structures, structures with them and be able to say like, look, there's, there's like arousal is not a. A controllable thing or arousal is not something that you're like, I choose to be aroused by this person, this person alone. And that's all there will ever be. We don't have control of that. It's a natural response. It is the actions associated with that that actually makes the person. So that for me, I'm like, that opens an opportunity to talk to my kids and be like, what you need to understand about something that you might be seeing over here. That does not change the relationship dynamic that me and your mother have. What it does do is allow us to explore fantasies and allows us to have open conversation that not nonjudgmental because our effort is to try and do things like decreased divorce rates. Our efforts are try to instruct people about relationships and the various structures and the various sexualities and the various everything that exists in the world that people ignore in favor of a box. So I, I can get on, I can get on board with that and I love the fact that you've got like your characters in the background hanging up on

Shae: 26:28

the walls. Well, he's, he's, that's, that's, he's, he has honestly become like a brother. Really? Yeah. At first it was like, Oh, he's all over these covers and I'm like, Oh, he's so handsome, you know? And then I got actually like messaged him, Hey, I love your work. Just left it at that. Never expected to hear from him. He was blowing out my DM. Oh, hey, how you doing? And we became really good friends. And I'm now when I read a book and he's on the cover, I'm like.

Kari: 26:57

I'm like, I know him way too much for this. It's

Shae: 27:00

like my brother, it's him doing it. So I do, I have to picture somebody else. Same thing with Wunder. Wunder is, he's 70 years old and absolutely gorgeous, but he's in, when he's in the books and he's daddy, I'm like, yeah.

Casey: 27:15

No, you have to like separate the character, like, I do,

Shae: 27:22

I like using the cover as my image for this person, you know, especially when my brain just ain't working and I can't. And then I got to know more models and got to speak into more models you know. Rajati, you know, all this, I'm like,

Kari: 27:36

I can't remember

Casey: 27:40

anything anymore. Just pulling the veil back and being like, damn it.

Shae: 27:45

Exactly. Because then you find out how sweet they are.

Kari: 27:48

Yeah. Yeah. You know, they wouldn't. They're actually a person.

Shae: 27:50

Yeah. They wouldn't spank their girlfriend, let alone whip them with a

Kari: 27:54

belt. Yeah.

Casey: 27:57

Well, so then that actually brings up a question for me. Do you have any. Favorite erotic scenes that you've written that you're just there in some of the like your top that you can be like if I were To show someone that wanted to see some of my deepest stuff. This is the thing I would show them

Shae: 28:14

I would say it actually comes from a short story Translucent It is about a BDSM club where it's a spinoff of another book and she's a submissive. Her ex comes back, realizes she's at that club and he hides who he is and they do actually electro play.

Casey: 28:36

Yeah. We've experienced

Kari: 28:37

that. Yeah. We've experienced that.

Shae: 28:39

But my favorite was when they did fire play, you know, he did the alcohol and, and I liked that because it is one of the more extreme practices. Yeah, so you have to be real careful. So I made sure, you know, I, because we haven't done it in a while, but went back and whenever my safety stuff, make sure I didn't something that was going to be. You know, incorrect get somebody killed stuff. So that was 1 of my favorites, even though that book has barely been read, because it is a short story. That is that's 1 of my favorite between the electric play and the fire play. And I'm not big on, you know. Blood play, but I do use it sometimes as a power, like, she's showing that I accept you for who you are kind of situation. But yeah, it's like that. Like, he's, he's masked. He won't show who she is. Of course. She's smart. She knows who it is and that's why she just gives herself fully. And these are 2 things that she's been craving, but none of her doms would do. They would just not okay with it. And he did it for her and he just did it perfect. And so I like those. Those are my, those are my favorite. Yeah.

Kari: 29:46

Okay. So are you writing anything currently?

Shae: 29:50

I'm writing two. I am writing my first fantasy. It will be on a different name just because it's usually good to separate your fantasy with your other ones. Okay. And then I'm writing Archer, which is about a female assassin. It's kind of like a John Wick meets dark

Kari: 30:05

romance. Okay. Very

Shae: 30:07

cool. I like that. And I think it's one of the first, especially in dark romance. Bye. Bye. It's kind of more of a thriller, but anyways it's going to have a descendant of the Sioux nation. So he is Native American, beautiful Native American. So that comes a little bit from my, my heritage and so like that. So, yeah, we're going to bring them two together and, but yeah, it's, it's almost done, but. I'm going slow on it because I want to make sure I get the, the ethnic experiences and, you know, tribal rituals and stuff like that into it accurately. And it's actually inspired by a a Cherokee fable. Okay, yeah, so, and it kind of helped start the fantasy romance that I'm writing.

Kari: 30:52

I love how much attention to detail seems to be important to you. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Like, I'm really picking up on that and I love that.

Shae: 31:01

Yeah, I, my stories aren't long compared to most, but the most feedback I've gotten from the trusted people I do ask to read my book is that my books are short and sweet and they don't understand how I'm able to fit so much detail and world building in it when it's so short. I'm texting. I'm like, let's

Kari: 31:24

just get to the point. Yeah, dude, you're speaking my language. That's one of the reasons that sometimes I struggle with reading fantasy books because I'm like, you just described a tree in 5 pages and I can't, I can't. Yes, that's Lord of the Rings. Thank you for understanding my reference, but I just can't I You are going I am to a type like I got shit to do and so if you're dragging out Unless it's like a very hot sex scene if you're dragging out

Casey: 31:55

You, that's the areas where you can, you can take the, yes,

Kari: 31:58

you will have my undivided attention

Casey: 32:00

to have five pages of describing someone's penis. Yes.

Kari: 32:04

I don't want to hear about your goddamn true in the front yard. Okay, but, but, but I do appreciate that though, because in a lot of times, like I will admit, I'm not a huge reader because. No, I read to you, you do read to me and I love that and, and we have a lot of fun when you read to me, but like, it's sometimes the details do get to be a little too much for me. And so if, like, as soon as you said, they're short and sweet, man, you drew my attention immediately because that does speak to me, or I understand that some people want that like long and drawn long and drawn out, but it's good to hear that there are other options aside from what I feel like some fantasy stories can be. Well, they can

Shae: 32:48

even some of my favorite authors. Well, I don't I don't call it so much details. This is just a lot of filler and I have sometimes I come come out feeling that. Okay. They're just doing this to fill up pages because. Honestly, they're writing to market and so the more pages you read, the more they get paid. Yeah don't know for sure if that's what they're doing. That's why I'm not naming any names, but I I will give I will that just frustrates me. And, and even with the sex scenes, if they're too long, I maybe I'm I've read so many and I've, I am experienced and, you know, the media, you know, I'm just like, guys, I don't need to know how many times he thrusts just. Let's go. Yeah. You know, just get it, you know, it can still be beautiful and quick and realistic. Come on. Yeah. Okay. He's not going to eat you out for an hour. Okay. If he is, he sucks at it because you should have already floated a million times by now. And so I'm just like stuck with the filler. Yeah. Exactly. Like you said, if it takes two pages to describe one room. I'm skipping

Kari: 33:53

over those pages. Yeah yeah, you already lost my attention. I'm just jumping forward

Casey: 33:57

till you're done and we're, all right.

Kari: 33:58

Okay, got it. All right. Exactly.

Casey: 34:02

You know, I can get on board with a lot of that because I do read a lot of fantasy. Mm hmm. And there's a lot of it. I mean, on the one hand, it's like you're trying to build a world and you have to have rules associated with that entire world because you're creating a compartmentalized universe and it has to be like, here's everything that goes along with it. But to be able to have somebody take the other side of that coin and go, okay. I get that. That's cool. And that's, that's well done. And you know, enjoy your time doing that to be able to have it concise and be like, look, I'm going to give you what you're waiting for. And like, I know that you're all reading this because you're looking for certain things. Let's, let's hit those points. So I'm going to decrease the amount of like exposition we're going through and give you like a really good shit. Yeah. Just

Kari: 34:43

trim the fat. It's a little too much. Well,

Shae: 34:46

in fantasy, you can definitely get away with it because like you said, it is. It's expected from fantasy readers is you have to build this whole entire world. That's why with this fantasy. I'm not going extreme. Yeah, fantasy, like, it's he can shape shift. Okay, let's just work on that. Got it. Not this magical world. It's based in this. This world now, it's just, he happens to be able to shake shit. Okay. So, because I know I will be like, I'm so bored with my book. Just

Kari: 35:14

go.

Casey: 35:15

so then I actually had another question as, as for you as a writer, whenever it comes to crafting. Different words to describe scenes. Do you ever find that exhausting to try to do it in different ways? Because the way I've seen it in the past where people are describing, say it's a sex scene and they're trying to describe someone's penis and they're using, they're trying to come up with different ways to do it. Is, is you find it easy to come up with like creative new ways to describe the actions and things are happening or does it you find to get it repetitive and then it becomes like, shit, I don't know what to say or like,

Kari: 35:51

like I said, throbbing 100 times. What else can I say? Like, how many times are

Casey: 35:55

going to hear

Kari: 35:55

throbbing member? Yeah.

Shae: 35:58

You know what? I don't think I've ever used throbbing.

Kari: 36:01

Well, now we got a new one for you. No, I'm just kidding. That one's overused. No, that's because,

Shae: 36:04

because you're right.

Kari: 36:05

It's overused. Throbbing,

Shae: 36:06

throbbing. Oh my gosh, that is, that to me reminds me of the old Harlem. Oh, it's throbbing. You know, really I, I just stay in a way kind of technical. Like I don't use penis in her vagina. Yeah. But I use, you know, cock. Yeah. Usually I use that cock for European, if, if he's Italian. Because that is going to be more of what they use. If he's Texan, like my Marienhaus series, they're going to most likely

Kari: 36:33

say dick.

Casey: 36:35

So you try to keep it true to how, like, the language of the culture might. Yeah, you're

Kari: 36:39

so technical and I love that. Well, and I

Shae: 36:42

mean, I there's an actor Jacopo Ricciardi. He's an Italian actor and he did Girls to Buy. With Giulio Berruti and so I talked to him and I was like, you know, I'm sorry, I'm going to ask these difficult questions, but you were in this movie. So I figured, so I asked him, you know, what would an Italian say? Would he use this word? And he's like, no, I'm like, okay, but yeah, if it's European, most likely, they're going to use like cunt or something like that Texan, they're going to say dick and pussy, you know, they're going to be real You know, I don't do the whole, I ain't, I ain't, because I hate that when people try to write Southern, I'll talk like the ignorant. Yeah, so, yeah, I try to do that, but it's, I picture it in my head, or if it was a scene that I did with my husband, I just remember it. And I guess that to me, it just seems technical because I'm just writing what I'm seeing and again, because I'm not dragging it on, there's really no time or no need to. It's like Name it different things. Yeah. And stuff like that. Now if I've noticed that maybe Pussy's been used a couple times, I'll say sex or her tight canal or Okay. Something like that. Yeah. If it's overused. Yeah. I'll, I'll do something like that. Definitely.

Casey: 37:56

Okay. See, I appreciate that. That's, that's been like a question of mine for a while. It's like, how does a writer come up with the various words they're going to use? I just imagine

Kari: 38:04

like a thesaurus is your best friend. You know? Like it has to be. There's a special, there's

Shae: 38:09

a special dirty thesaurus in everything. Yeah, when I first

Kari: 38:12

started the Wikipedia of dirty talk, it is, it

Shae: 38:16

is. And it does help you. I mean, I'll look up how do the French you know, say or address a penis or, you know,

Casey: 38:28

I'm learning new things. I'm going to go find this. I'm going to just look up all sorts of words to use in the bedroom. I'm going to get real

Kari: 38:35

serious to all of a sudden his vocabulary grows when we're in the bedroom.

Casey: 38:41

Don't say that it might actually grow further.

Kari: 38:44

It's fine. I'm going to start calling it your throbbing cock.

Casey: 38:48

You would never hear me say don't.

Kari: 38:51

Very true.

Casey: 38:54

Well, so it's interesting you said that because you said that you spoke to an Italian actor who said they would, they would probably say cock over dick or something like that. That was that because I, as I understand, you had written a series about it was it was a mob series, wasn't it?

Shae: 39:08

Yeah, it was a little bit of a twist on the Italian mob Roma or sorry, not the politically term. Correct. Gypsy. It actually was based on true events that my grandmother went through. She, she lived in an area of town that her family was. A bit connected and there was a band of Roma that would come every month down this road and of course they live kind of out in the farmland and stuff like that. And they, she would have to hide because they would come looking for child brides for their sons or their daughters or like that. And so they always preferred dark hair and light eyes. And that's what she was. And so she would always have to hide because otherwise, if you didn't offer them up, you know, they'd offer you something like, I'll do something for you. Give me your daughter, blah, blah, blah to marry my husband or my son. They would hide in, or they'd come and get them if they knew you had them, they just come. And so that's how that got inspired. And then I met these 3 older gentlemen. I was at a coffee shop and these 3 older gentlemen were sitting there talking Romanian to each other. I'm just watching and the story just plays out in my head and I go over to him. I was like, hi, what's your name? And one of them is Idris, which ends up being Emiliano's father. And so it just Yeah, and I didn't want to I couldn't get every word right in Italian. So I did my best, you know, sometimes Google's good. Sometimes it's not. But yeah, I tried to talk to him as much as possible between his his movies and modeling and all that. And I was just like, I need help. I don't is this true? Is this a stereotype? Is this going to be rude? Yeah, I don't, I don't know. And he was like, yeah, that's a stereotype. That's not true. Or. Oh, yeah, that's a, that's a stereotype, but it's true. Yeah. So, yeah, and then I already knew kind of the mob, like I said, my grandparents were connected. So, I, I knew those stories and kind of the details of what it meant and everything. So.

Casey: 41:13

Well, okay. Well, so we've seen, as we said, we've seen this like explosion or at least on from the outside in, we've seen this explosion of like erotic literature. It's be, I love the way that you had said it because this is true of the entire sex positivity movement is that it's becoming like, or okay to be like, this is what I'm into sexually speaking. It's no longer something where everyone has to be like, no, we don't talk about that. Cause we've mentioned this before on our show is that we both grew up in sex neutral. Households essentially didn't really get that much of an education on it. It was more of like, we just don't talk about it. And so for us, it had all been, you know, it had all been Dr. Ruth and it had been real sex. Like all these shows stealing my mom's books, early porn online, where it would be 10 minutes. Image, that was, that was more of our sex education. So it's been this really, really interesting change to see in the last probably 10 years or so to watch sex positivity start to blow up and people will be able to be like, no, I'm open about who I am and what I enjoy on both on my sexuality level as well as just a level of who I am in terms of sex. So it's really, really cool to see. And I would imagine as an author, you're like, Well, this is cool for me too, because now people are talking more about my work.

Shae: 42:33

Yeah, and I, I like, I, I always tell people I cannot write a meek. Female character, you know, the ones that's like, oh, he's so hot. I'm just gonna let him do whatever, you know, I can't I've tried because at the time that was marketing. That's what people wanted. And I was like, I just can't do it. I can't let him talk to her like that. Yeah, you know, so I was really happy. It wasn't the niche thing at the time, but I was like, you know what? I'm just going to do it. And I, I liked being able to show women. Look, she's still a strong character and she's going to tell him to stick it up his ass if he's in, you know, in the wrong or insults her in some way, but at the same time, it's okay for him to be a man and her submit. It's okay. Submission is not Giving up and being a doormat or a dog to kick, right? It's

Kari: 43:26

okay. Yeah, there's a lot of control in being submissive. Yeah,

Shae: 43:31

it it's okay to let a man be a man with his instincts of protection and and and dominance and stuff like that. And it's okay for you to let yourself be a little bit vulnerable and stuff like that, because it's wonderful. Women are empowered. That's absolutely wonderful. Good for them, but at the same time don't take somebody else's power as well. So it's okay to have this push and pull that satisfies your sexual Desires or it you know, if it works better when you the woman takes it off her shoulder and says look just take this I need you to take this. Mm hmm. It's okay you don't have to feel like you're less of a empowered woman because you gave Your significant significant other power local power. It's okay. And so that's the kind of tie. I wanted to because if, if you ever read for his own protection, she is a female security agent, protecting a man. Of course, he doesn't want anybody protecting him because, you know, he's a man and blah, blah, blah. But he, through the entire book, the only reason he disrespects her at any time is because he thinks she's some and privileged, you know, because they're loaded, you know, but they weren't always like that. So that's the only reason he ever disrespects her. But when he comes to a woman and her power as his protector. Yes, he wants to protect her and he even knocks her out of the way to protect her, but she gets up in his face and it's like. Look, asshole, I'm here to protect you. And so I wanted to write that kind of dynamic. It is okay to submit to each other and women. It is okay to submit and you still are a powerful person.

Casey: 45:10

Yeah, that's, I mean, that's, that's kind of the shift that we've seen, right? Culturally speaking, is that we see that women empowerment has been this, this huge, huge topic and there's, there's a clash that we see, but we talk and we've talked about this. In private, a lot is the fact that the way that boys are instructed to grow up the whole thing of never asking for help, the whole thing of that you must be masculine, the whole thing of that. You must push down emotions. You're not allowed to cry because you're a pussy if you do and all that kind of stuff versus the. the women who are told that you're supposed to be the caregiver and you're supposed to sacrifice your own emotions and your own self in order to please the people around you. So there was that message. And then we have women's empowerment, which is like, be your own person, be independent, be a boss ass fucking bitch, which is an amazing message to have to people. But what we do see is that what the culture, what, what, what people tend to do is we go from one extreme to the other and it just bounces. And you have a lot of people that are able to find the balance, which is like that sweet spot, but for the most part, everything goes on this big shift of going one, one side to the other, to one side, the other. So I love the fact that you talk about that. It's like, yeah, it's, it's a big, you can be powerful and you all can also make the conscious choice to be like what I want. Is to submit to you and I'm giving you that permission. I'm not giving you my power at all. I'm giving you my permission in this scene.

Kari: 46:37

Yeah, yeah. Because I'm

Shae: 46:38

telling you, I had so much pent up. Like, I didn't know there was so much on my shoulders until I released it and it. Like, literally, it sounds so dramatic, but it literally felt like I was floating because it's like, yeah, well, why didn't you tell me? Of course I'll take that. I thought you just wanted it. I thought you liked doing this stuff, you know, this, whatever, making sure this was do done. Right. And I was like, no, I don't take it. And I was just like, no, I got nothing to do. So it's, it's an amazing feeling.

Casey: 47:13

Well, I think we're, we're coming up on time. Do you have any more questions? I felt like you had, you were, you had something

Kari: 47:20

you were on the verge of saying, I did have one more question. And it does kind of tie into, into something maybe a little bit differently, but I love to, to ask people in your shoes like this, like what other authors. Like to, to read, like who have has. Some of the inspiration in your life to, to have the confidence to sit down and, and write what you do.

Shae: 47:41

Well, when I was younger, it was definitely Anne Rice. Okay.

Kari: 47:44

I know that's I think Anne Rice is the one that wrote the vampire books that I

Shae: 47:48

read. Interview with a vampire, yes. And it's okay. Yeah, they didn't have any sexual aspects to it.

Kari: 47:55

I remember that name, but it's not, it's not, it's not who I was thinking of, but I do remember and rice. I remember my mom reading and reading the inner of the vampire and all that. But even before

Shae: 48:04

that, it was Emily Dickinson, again, dark. So I guess I always stuck, you know, and I did read the franchise we were talking about earlier and I was like, okay, I get it. Whatever, I'm very disappointed in that aspect, but I get what she's doing. But then I ran across Penelope Skye and Peppa Winters again. Penelope Skye, to me, is the queen of dark romance and she touches on some pretty deep, dark ideas. But she, it's always redeemable. I'm telling you, if you, you have to be ready to read her stuff because you're absolutely going to hate it at the beginning. You're gonna be so angry. I can't believe she's writing this. How does she think this is okay? And then if you just stick with it, you're like, this is magical. This, you know, because I don't know about you, but personally, as a mom, you have to, you have to be calm. You know, you have to do this. You have to do this. You have to be a certain way. And so, when it was time for me to relax, and I've had to hold in all these. Emotions trying not to yell at my kids, trying not to yell at my husband or whatever I can read these. And feel all that without saying a word. I can feel the rage. I want to release. I can feel the sorrow everything. And that, for me, is what Penelope sky did. And why she, I mean, I get chills talking about it. She honestly, I was like, this is what I want to do. I want to do this for others. One, it's entertaining and freaking. Okay, I may have to put this back and go find my toy kind of situation. Yeah. I mean, that's how good it is because you're like dark, dark, dark, dark. Whoa,

Kari: 49:43

that

Shae: 49:44

was hot. Was that hot? That shouldn't have been hot, you know, but it does. I wanted to do that. Yes, she writes a lot longer books than I do, but. She just opens that whole emotional side of you where if your heart starts pounding, your chest warms, your loins, everything starts weeping, you know, whatever you want to say it poetically. And so she is my main, like, she is my, my Gandhi of dark

Kari: 50:09

romance. I'm searching her books then, because I will be honest, I've started to read some of these and I am not interested. Yeah,

Shae: 50:17

they, they start off slow, definitely, but they're intense. Yeah, as long as I

Kari: 50:22

know the intensity is coming, I, that's even better if I know that the intensity is coming, you know? Yeah, it's

Shae: 50:30

definitely something you probably need to read when you're, you're ready to fully relax. Got it. You're going to

Kari: 50:34

get mad. Casey's going to come in. I'm going to be crying. Go away.

Shae: 50:41

I'm like, what? Oh, sorry. I'm not mad at you. I'm mad at Crow. I'm so mad at Crow.

Casey: 50:49

Oh Lord. I love it. That's good. Well, we covered a lot today and we super appreciate that. So, Shay, thank you for being on the show. If, if people want to find your books, they want to connect with you. They want to wait. How can they do that? Give us the rundown. As of right

Shae: 51:04

now, since I'm my own publisher at One Man's Show, it's just on Amazon right now. My newest release, Chained Truth, which is a, in the Roma galaxy is on Kindle Unlimited, otherwise they're all just on ebook and paperback. But yeah, they're pretty much just on Amazon right now, but a lot of my stuff I, I promo on my Instagram and, and stuff like that. That's my main That's my main chat. And

Casey: 51:26

that's, if I have this correct, that is Shea, S H A E dot Coon, C O O N, author. Yes, sir. Great. And that's not that we are going to encourage everyone to start following you. Check out some of your stuff. Read a ton of your, of a ton of your material. We can assure you're going to have a good time doing it. So having said that for another episode of come with Casey, we are hosts. I'm Dr. Casey Sanders and I'm Carrie Sanders. We'll see you next time.