Part 2 of The Poly Pocket With Fox Eros

Welcome to part 2 of The Poly Pocket with returning special guest, Fox Eros, The Polyamory Therapist!

Fox Eros (M.A., AMFT), known as 'The Polyamory Therapist' has earned a reputation as an incandescent, deeply empathetic and passion filled Psychotherapist, Writer and Speaker. She has a Master’s Degree in Marriage Family Therapy and is an expert in Consensual Non-Monogamous Relationships and Sex Therapy. She is currently at work on her first book about polyamory and is a contributing writer and educator in the polyamory field. Fox continues to be sought out to help individuals and people in relationships with life stress, self-worth, identity, impacts of trauma, sex and intimacy related topics. 

Fox identifies as a pansexual, panromantic, polyamorous, multi-ethnic, Black Girl Magic, BIPOC femme person; and lives on the land of the Chumash and Gabrielino-Tongva First Peoples. Her pleasures include being a Beloved, forest bathing, sun dancing, anything chocolate & peanut butter, and crushing on our infinite Universe. Also, rainbows. 

Connect with Fox on social media @thepolyamorytherapist or her website https://www.foxerosinlove.com/. 

Transcript

Casey: 0:00

welcome back to come with Casey. As always, we are your hosts. I'm Dr. Casey Sanders. Back for part two of polyamory with the Fox Eros Fox, how you doing?

FOX: 0:12

Hi. I don't know why I wanted to say hi like that. Hi everyone.

Casey: 0:19

I know. I almost feel like we, if you haven't listened to part one, we highly encourage you to go back. We had some great conversation about opening up relationships and about the pitfalls that come with it. Why to do it? Why not to do it? It was a whole damn conversation.

Kari: 0:32

Well, and that's really what brought us to wanting to have a part two. Cause there's no way that we can talk about everything that we want to talk about in one episode. So thank you so much for coming back. Um, and we have even more questions and more to dive into for today. First of all, how are you doing today?

FOX: 0:49

I'm good. It's my pleasure to be here. I love you too. And look at, I'm wearing this in honor of, aren't you doing like rope, our Shabari classes? Like what classes are you doing? I love

Kari: 0:58

you

FOX: 0:58

so

Kari: 0:58

much. He was like, should we talk about the class? I'm like, we're not promoting our class on our call. And I'm not even promoting it. I'm just saying,

FOX: 1:07

yeah, I'm okay. So for those of you that can't see, I'm wearing a pink bow around my neck, like I'm a little gift. And it kind of reminds me of like something a little kinky, So it's super cute. So I was like, Oh, this is an honor of them. So yeah, tell me, I wanted your classes very sexy.

Casey: 1:23

Yes. So we are the Shabari class that we're hosting and we want to emphasize this. It is an introductory class. So I've myself, I've been, uh, I've been a rigger for the last, what, year and a half. And, but my extensive knowledge of anatomy and physiology put together with that has allowed us to create a class specifically for couples

FOX: 1:43

so they can

Casey: 1:44

learn how to do some sexy bedroom ties, make it a little bit more erotic, and get a good introduction to do it in a safe and sexy way.

FOX: 1:51

And what about threples and quads? Can they come too?

Casey: 1:55

Yes, they can actually show our, whenever we, what we do have it let down. Our, we do have tickets put down for couples and then we have extra tickets. So individuals can come, uh, and they can either, you know,

Kari: 2:07

Cause that allowing where you get like two tickets or you can get one ticket. So there is three or there is four. You just end up buying the two tickets together. And then we're going to go through and talk a lot about like prior consent. Um, and then if people are comfortable with maybe going outside their little group, um, it's something that we're all going to discuss beforehand. Um, so it's not only going to be a shibari class, but it's going to be like a proper etiquette class and not doing anything kinky. Because a lot of these people are coming in, maybe not experiencing any level of kink. So yeah, a big portion early on, like he was saying is going to be obviously the anatomy of the body, where to tie, where not to tie and then how to ask permission to tie. And honestly, it's been great for me because he's been tying me up the last few nights. Practice all the different times in the class. I'm like, Hey, babe, don't you need to practice? Oh,

FOX: 3:02

you can practice on me. And I

Kari: 3:06

love

FOX: 3:07

the consent piece because people who aren't in the kink community, like consent is really heavy in the kink community, more so in the non kink community. Like it, you need to have a hell yes on consent. things and we need safety signals and if I want to stop or take it slow, I need aftercare. Those things are so important with pink. And um, I'm just really excited. Yeah. The photos are really beautiful and sexy.

Casey: 3:31

We've been getting more inquiries from like local models and from photographers who are like, Hey, would you like to work with us? So it's really opened up this whole door. for us to be able to be like, cool, we now have this extensive way to interact further with the community in a way that allows us to build a social circle and have a lot of fun through the art of shabari.

FOX: 3:49

And I don't think that people, and this, the reason we're talking about kink is because it's intersects with polyamory, like kink, queer, all of these things that are beautiful, magical combination. So this absolutely has to do with polyamory folks. We might get into some kinks and kinks not only sex. It's like a psychological thrill. It's like emotional. It's a way to connect But um, yeah, I wanted to say a few things I first want to honor the land that I'm on of the Chumash and Gabrielino Tongva first peoples I always like to honor that and yes, my name is Fox Eros. I'm also polyamory therapist and Yeah, if you didn't hear, um, episode one, please! It's so good! But if you're a rebel and you want to listen to this one first and then that one, I think we should define polyamory again. And then I also wanted to share some of my identities. I'm pansexual, queer, I'm super fucking panromantic, and then I'm BIPOC, black girl magic, multi ethnic, And I'm sure I could come up with more labels, but I'll stop there. And then let's define polyamory just in case people are okay. So polyamory, it fits under the ethical non monogamy umbrella. It's one type of ethical non monogamy and it's the type that involves emotional connection and intimacy. So it's not just sex, like swinging. And there has to be a hell yes to wanting to be involved in this kind of relationship, which means it's not infidelity or cheating. Everybody knows everybody wants it. Suit, everybody agrees to having more than one lover.

Casey: 5:17

I know. I, well, I already immediately wanna dive a little bit into that real quick. Yeah.'cause we see a lot of confusion whenever people think of polyamory and they think of a bunch of people having sex and they don't realize difference between something like swinging, going out to adult clubs and doing, getting in more into hookup culture. Yeah. And it being more about the physicality and the wild experience. Versus the polyamory side of things where it's like, no, this is about building a connection with somebody possibly falling in love with another person and going through the whole roller coaster of a relay consensually.

FOX: 5:50

Yes. Yeah, I love that. You said it so well. It's, there's like this togetherness vibe. Like think of a tribe. Think of being on the same team. Think of attuning to each other. And you're not single. Polyamory, you are not single and just going out around and doing whatever the fuck you want. You are considering your tribe and your lovers and your metamors. You don't have to like everybody, but you honor and respect them. And you can have orgies. Absolutely. Sex is fun. Sex can be part of it if you want to, but it's not just sex. There's like emotional aspect. So yeah, that's the difference. And I love naming that cause not everybody knows. And that's how people sometimes get harmed. Is there,

Kari: 6:24

I, I know some people in poly that they really focus more on the relationships and the bonds and intercourse isn't necessarily a part in it or not an intercourse, but any sexual acts play a part in it. So, so sometimes it's not. Sex at all. And that's the other beauty of it is because it can be whatever consenting adults want it to be.

FOX: 6:44

Yeah. You get to design your fucking, you get

Kari: 6:46

to decide. It's great.

Casey: 6:48

Recap part one, recap

FOX: 6:51

part one. I love your outfit. It's like a ballerina.

Kari: 6:56

Thank you. Should I curtsy for you?

FOX: 6:59

Lavender and honey. It's so pretty. I love your tattoos. We're putting our legs up. If you can't, if you can't see, I just lifted up my

Kari: 7:08

hands with my ballerina outfit.

FOX: 7:12

Casey, you look beautiful too.

Casey: 7:13

Thank you. Out of the two of us, I'm the much less complimented one. So I strongly appreciate, you know, showing some love there.

FOX: 7:23

My pleasure.

Casey: 7:24

Look it's, I love the fact that you had said that, cause I want to go back for again for a second, is that I think that a lot of people have this it's a paradigm shift that they have to go through whenever they're looking at polyamory and then trying to imagine themselves loving, more than one person. And it's the whole thing of like, it's pushed into your head of, and this is that whole monogamy culture of being like, Hey, you have the one person and that's the person you're supposed to feel the unconditional love for. And then you tell that same group of people, well, it's possible to actually feel that same love for more than one person. And then just go, what the fuck does that even like, you can't even compromise. But it's a difficult thing. It's a grass. It is. I mean, you talk about people that from the time that they are born, they are put into a culture that it's all about finding the one person, right? To meet all your

FOX: 8:12

needs.

Casey: 8:13

Yes. Soulmate that you must have that one person. And it's, it even takes a lot of unlearning for people as they grow up into adolescence for you to be like, Hey, listen, it's okay to date somebody and have a relationship with them and understand that marriage between you two or something longterm. a possibility or something that you should even strive for. You can do, you can define your relationship in any way you want. And it's okay to go into a relationship and define your terms with each other. They'd be like, we're not trying to lead towards marriage right now, or even a monogamous relationship. Right now. Right. It's something that is so difficult to like really put through people.

FOX: 8:50

Yeah, it is because our nervous system is wired for monogamy. It's all that we're taught. It's all that we're modeled. So it has inherent safety and security. But when you think about monogamy, it's like, when did the fuck that start? Is that like the, is that the original way to love? No, it's not. It came in with like, It's like a social political construct that America used to like assimilate indigenous people and kind of make it so that land would have a way to be land and property would have a way to be passed down through generations. It wasn't about love or intimacy or sex. It was a domestic partnership. Yeah, most times it was arranged. Yeah, it

Kari: 9:29

wasn't about love then.

FOX: 9:30

Yeah. And if you think about like who was here, like black and brown people, they were probably more of like in a village tribe kinship type of thing where there was intimacy, shared power and equality. So when you go back and you think about where monogamy started, it doesn't mean it's a shameful thing to do, but it also means there are many ways to love. What, how do you want to love? What do you value? You love more than one friend and one, more than one child. So why are we, So rigid with how many people you can have sex with or be intimate with, and why are we rigid with, I forget what else I was gonna say, but it was gonna be really You're just gonna

Kari: 10:04

scream

Casey: 10:04

it out a little if it comes back out there. I mean, if I understand correctly, most of the indigenous tribes that we had here were, uh, uh, egalitarian style. Is that correct? I believe that's what it was. I wanna, it was almost like it wasn't they appointed. Person with a hierarchy that went around, it was more of that egalitarian style. And it was the same way with kind of with relationships. And it wasn't until colonization occurred that it started becoming, this is what you're supposed to do. Hetero, patriarchy,

FOX: 10:30

monogamy, Christian norms. Yeah. And I want to research that more. And I don't want to speak for indigenous communities, but I believe that, um, heterosexuality and all these things weren't like, it wasn't, what is that word? Um, That's like the oppressive, dominant culture now. There are so many other ways to love. And there, yeah, power, equality, different types of sexu Spectrums and gender, all of these things were shared and open and expansive. And now we're like, there's one way. Man, woman, main household person, bloop de bloop. That's Okay. But do you want to do that? I mean, wouldn't it be amazing to, it's so transcendent to love more than one person just because I love more than one person. Does that impact my other lover? Does that mean I love them less? Like how does that make you feel like I might abandon you? Like do we need to reaffirm each other anyway?

Casey: 11:19

I could just keep talking. Well, and that's the beauty of is there's so much to dive into. And that's one of the overall messages we like to deliver to people who are curious about opening up a relationship. Yep. Is to that message of don't do it until you learn a little bit about it. Like, hold off. It can be exciting. It can be something you really want to dive into, but like, take us, take a beat. Going through some literature, joining some groups, like look at like various ways that you can do this because you're gonna run into obstacles. And we covered a little bit about that last time. Um, but that actually, that leads into probably the first question that we have for today that we want our topic that we have for today. And this is all about how to self regulate whenever you're, whenever you start dating and your partner starts dating. We know that as you start dating, you're going to go and we'll get into pacing on all this in a little bit. But whenever you first start dating and you witness your partner starting to go on dates and get a connection with somebody, it can be very unsettling for people.

FOX: 12:17

Devastating. Yeah. Like you want to practice polyamory and you talked about it and you planned it and then you do it and you're like, I can't breathe. I'm panicking. I'm like in a ball on the floor, like crying. Even though I, my rational brain wants it. So yeah you're, our nervous systems, like I said, they're wired for monogamy. So when you talk about how do you regulate, I want to talk about why is polyamory making me dysregulate? It's because my lizard brain is perceiving a threat. I think that I'm going to be harmed in some way, even though I've decided to do this with my rational brain. So we have the stress response when your body perceives a real or imagined threat of fight, fawn or freeze. So that's like if a tiger or bears about to come and get you, But there is no tiger or bear. So it sometimes the threat, the danger is actually imagined or it's not super valid where it's almost inconvenient. Cause you're like, I actually want to do this. So yes fight, fawn or freeze. How do we regulate? Well, first know what it feels like when you are regulated versus dysregulated. So when you're regulated, your shoulders are down. You're able to hold nuance for conversations, your eyes aren't fixated, you're breathing well, your heart's good, you know, you're at a good pace, there's no tension in your body, so now figure out what it feels like when you're fucked up. When you're dysregulated, it's like the opposite, because your body's really intelligent and it'll start to give you signs, so track when you're in the yellow versus when you're in the red. When you're in the red, your lizard brain has already taken over, and you don't care. It's going to take you a minute to calm down. So ways you can regulate or we call it co regulate when you want to do it with your partner is I say, make like a beautiful lip, like go to Michael's arts and crafts. I bet you didn't think I was going to say something like this. You're like, Oh my God, where's this going? Get a little wooden box. One of those ones that open like a jewelry box and you're going to fill it with reminders. Of how to regulate because when you are fucked up, it's too late You can't remember so you're gonna write shit on little pieces of paper like this like listen to your favorite Spotify playstation of like 80s and 90s dance songs um the most optimal way is going running or like Exercising because back in the day if you were chased by a bear you ran to safety and then you went Okay, I'm not being eaten. So if you have the accessibility to exercise, great. If not, um, ask your partner if they'll touch you or hold you or make eye contact, if that's helpful, there's so many ways. Um, seeing singing, it helps regulate your breath too. I love grounding and breathing techniques, but not everyone loves those, but I love those are some

Casey: 14:51

of my favorite or breathing tech, like box breathing for me. And a lot of that is what I love to do on a daily basis. It's just everything down.

FOX: 15:00

It resets your nerve. It sends your, it tells your vagus nerve, I think, to tell your brain to give whatever signal thing. Okay. We're resetting. I know. I don't know the science of it, but

Casey: 15:10

it's okay. I got you.

FOX: 15:11

You got me like this. Let's put your hands on your shoulders until your head down. That one's my favorite. It makes me feel high and do, um, three cycles of inhale, exhale, and your exhales longer. So these are all little ways that you can regulate and normalize talking about, you know what, I'm offline right now. I'm in the yellow and that's all you have to say. And then your partners can help you change temperatures like getting a fucking cold shower.

Kari: 15:35

Yeah. Okay. That's a good one.

Casey: 15:36

I know cold shocks and everything. It becomes so popularized. Most people are like, I use it for workout and recovery. They don't realize what it can do for your emotional regulation as well.

FOX: 15:44

Yes. Yeah. We got to take care of ourselves and be compassionate because the lizard brains, we're still about, it takes like millions of years to evolve. So it's not our fault, but we can be accountable for it. Yeah. We

Casey: 15:54

want to help to draw a lot of blood back to that. Like what we talked about last time, that prefrontal cortex, right? Yeah. Those are brain get into logical brain and start realizing, Hey, the things that I'm, the feelings I'm feeling, are they linked to a specific event? Is this something that is. Actually happening or is this something that I'm worried about happening? And am I listening to my emotions that say, Hey, that, that, um, that, that invisible event. It's not actually there. Like, it's not actually there. And then can you take a deep breath and go, okay, I'm clearly worrying about something that has not happened. What's the potential for this happening? My step away from the risk and more towards being like, I'm actually safe. Like it's not, this isn't actually happening right now. So let me start to reconnect with myself and reconnect with my partner.

FOX: 16:39

What makes you feel safe and secure? That's got to go in one of the post it notes because That's what regulates us. So you just said it right there is thinking about that before you're just regulated. These are the things that make me safe and secure. Put them in a little box, talk to your lover about it. And you know what? Some things will, It's valid that they activate you. So if they keep activating, you talk to your lover about it or notice in your lover, wow, that keeps activating you. Is that like, should we change our relationship agreement? Should I be out all night? Is, you know, if you're opening up from an already established relationship, cause we know there's many ways to be polyamorous.

Kari: 17:13

I like that you put a call out to the other partner as well, because we're in this together. And if one person sees that an act is triggering the other person. I think that's beneficial to speak up and say something. I like that you bring that up because we are responsible for ourselves. Absolutely. But if we're going to be a group and we are going to do this together, I like how you're saying being as open, but that also being as observant.

FOX: 17:37

Yeah, being aware. That's attunement. When you are a baby and your caregivers are attuning to you psychologically, emotionally, and physically, that's how you build your literal attachment style. So Jessica Fern talks about it in Polysecure. You can rebuild your attachment style into a safe and secure one when you're an adult and you can do that within yourself and you can do that with others. So our individualistic culture is like, well, if you're jealous, that's your problem. If you need to regulate, that's your thing. No, in Polyamory, it's tribal. It's team, like kinship. How do we Use our power for love and intimacy for the good. Like, how do we connect and watch each other? You see your partners like devastating. You're like, well, I'll be back in the morning. No, that was

Casey: 18:15

fun. I'll see you. It sucks. You feel that way. See you later.

FOX: 18:18

Yeah. And it's hard because you have to consider your metamors too. Like if you're going too fast and then it's like, okay, well, I'm going to slow down. Well now your metamors might get hurt by that. So it's like a really delicate balance of trying to love everyone. And I've been starting to realize part of polyamory is that we also are our own lover. We have to love ourselves. We are one of the people we are in relationship with. So how are we going to, yeah, what were you going to say, Casey? I was going

Casey: 18:42

to say it's the RuPaul. You don't love yourself. How the hell are you going to love anybody else?

FOX: 18:47

Okay, RuPaul.

Casey: 18:50

Yes. Care is a huge fan of RuPaul's drag race and I get to sit in and I'll watch some of these episodes. It's like one of my favorite parts of the show.

FOX: 18:59

I need to watch that show. Cause everyone says how fucking amazing it is. I want to watch it.

Kari: 19:04

Even our 10 year old walks around and it was like, well, if you don't love yourself, how the heck you going to love anybody else? I'm like, she gets it. She told me she gets it

FOX: 19:11

and she'll be empowered. I love that.

Casey: 19:14

So I have to take a quick pause because we know That there's a lot of people that listen that not are not necessarily in the know with terms whenever it comes to polyamory. So do us a favor and define a metamors for us really quickly.

FOX: 19:25

Yeah, your metamors are your lover's lover. So if I'm Casey, you are dating someone and Carrie is not dating that person, then that is Carrie's metamor. Yes. Your lover's lover. You're not necessarily intimate or sexual with them. And sometimes people don't like their metamors and sometimes. Um, they do, but if you become intimate or sexual with them, well now they are your lover. They are also your lover.

Casey: 19:49

That's where we get into all those terms like kitchen table polyamory. Yeah. Parallel polyamory.

FOX: 19:54

Well, and you know, I just learned parent parallel polyamory too. That's where it's kind of separate. You're not really bringing everybody together to meet Casey. Casey. Sorry. I went like this. Casey, Terry. I love that. Okay. Sorry. See how distracted I got. Yeah. I forget what I was saying again. It's

Casey: 20:12

that parallel polyamory, right? Where it would be like, Carrie has a partner, but I don't interact or know them at all. Carrie doesn't know them, meet them. And it's just, there's another relationship going on. They have nothing to do with it. Yeah. It's something like kitchen table polyamory where, uh, Maybe everyone sits down. We're not necessarily all involved with each other, but it'd be like if Carrie was in a relationship and we all sat like we're all, we all hang out together, we're all friends, just Carrie has her relationship with that person. Also a relationship with me while I have a relationship with somebody else. And we're all just friends and together.

FOX: 20:45

I know. Doesn't that sound amazing?

Casey: 20:47

A big polycule or some sort. Yes.

FOX: 20:49

Oh my gosh. Y'all seen, um, I don't know if we talked about in episode one, did y'all see how to build a sex room?

Casey: 20:55

Yes. We mentioned the show in episode one, but I don't think we dove into, yeah, we didn't really dive into the polycule where they built the whole room.

FOX: 21:07

I want like a separate room that's just for sex or maybe my bedroom should be my sex room. But I think a lot of people are getting into rope play and like the vanilla people are like, and I don't use vanilla as derogatory, but just like if you haven't been kinky, they're starting to embrace all these ways because of that Netflix show. So I love that show. No, we

Casey: 21:25

love anything that helps like. Pull back the curtain on kink, uh, on polyamory on all of these, like out of the box, relational norms. We are so in for it because all it does is open us up to be able to talk to more people, help more people and just create like a better social circle, especially whenever people are coming in and being like, I know nothing about this. Like, what can y'all tell me? Oh my God, you know what a good book

FOX: 21:50

is too? There's the best book. It's by Kate Sloan and it's called 101 Kinky Things Even You Can Do. And it is like 101, like basics. It's so awesome. I, every more like every Saturday, me and my lover, we read one during breakfast. We're like, Ooh, gagging. Oh my God. Ass worship, like things I've never even heard of. And I was like, okay, bookmark this. I want to try this. This sounds too intense, but

Kari: 22:16

yeah. Well, because I think that people should just assume that they know what their kink is. And that's not accurate. You have, you know, you're going to be into, and so to have something like that does allow you to pull it up and be like, Oh, okay. Like butt plugs. Got it. You know what I mean? Like, I just, I love that there is a book that does that because I think that people are expected to know, but you don't know what you don't know. Like, you don't know what you don't know. Yes.

Casey: 22:42

This is where it's important to have a yes, no, maybe list, like and we utilize that in our relationship. And then we've also created one of our own that we, uh, that we offer to people where they can look at it. And it's just a list of all these different things and allows them to decide if they're, you know, into it, if it's like a maybe, or if it's like, And then it's also, I mean, it's the one that we created is fairly complex. We were very excited about it. Yeah. There's a lot.

FOX: 23:09

Can you email me this list?

Casey: 23:12

I will share it with you. Will you share

FOX: 23:15

it with me? Cause I want to see it. Okay. I love that. I

Casey: 23:20

said along with an NDA.

FOX: 23:24

Oh yeah. Yeah. No, I'm not going to share. I'm going to keep it really private, but I would love to see it.

Casey: 23:28

I trust you. Yes. We had a fun time coming up with it. And it's helped a lot of people realize like what they want to do, how if they want to see something or if they would like to give something in terms of all of this. And it's fairly extensive. And so, I mean, we were happy with it, but that's, it's such a cool thing to be able to like you, what you were saying is that you don't, you're not going to go into kink and just all of a sudden know what you're into and know what you're not into. It takes, just like

FOX: 23:54

polyamory. You can talk about it and it's so exciting because you're like, Oh my gosh, I'm, you know, I think we hold back the part of us that is attracted to other people or feeling flirty or crushing, like on our husband's friend or our partner's friend or whatever. But once you're polyamorous, you're like waking up to the real signals you had that you're like, Your attraction is still there. So it's really exciting. It's exciting to open up, but then it's also can be devastating once you're like, now I'm jealous seeing my lover fall in love with someone else or flirt with someone else or be desired. And, you know, I love, I've been really thinking a lot about how. Say we're with an already established partner. The day to day domestic stuff that's like habitual and kind of boring and mundane. We don't do that with our new lovers. So that's what polyamory keeps us like on our toes because all of a sudden we see our metamors completely desiring and treating our lover differently and we've been doing all the domestic shit. But that also leaves a window for relationship neglect. Well, how have I been showing up for my lover? Like, have I been doing these things? Of course you're jealous if your partner's doing NRE with someone and you've been like washing clothes at home. Yeah. Well, there's all these things to consider and you kind of have to like, okay, I have to give to myself, my metamorph, my lover. It's a lot. Like we only have so much capacity for time, but our capacity to love is infinite, but not our time.

Casey: 25:14

Which I mean, that is that on a t

Kari: 25:16

shirt.

Casey: 25:16

Yeah. Yes,

Kari: 25:19

that's not our time. It's a super interesting

Casey: 25:21

point because people are like, you know, how can you go in and love all these people and all that? And we're like, well, it's not about the capacity to love because that capacity to love is like you say, it's infinite.

FOX: 25:30

Infinite.

Casey: 25:31

It's time management. Yeah.

FOX: 25:33

We're human. The concept of time feels really fucking real to me.'cause I also gotta sleep. I like to go night at like 8:00 PM so I can't be out dating.

Casey: 25:41

Exactly. And that's, it's such a great thing because it allows also for the monogamous people that listen to the show to take a closer look at their relationship, because from the time of your first year of your relationship begins, you decide to be monogamous. We have the, so many of these like inborn rules that you're supposed to follow. That's like, Don't ever look at another person and don't feel feelings for anybody else. Don't have attraction to anything else. And that goes against our very DNA.

FOX: 26:07

Yeah.

Casey: 26:08

And it's much more productive, we've found,

Kari: 26:11

whenever

Casey: 26:12

we actually discuss that stuff.

Kari: 26:13

Well, I also think that whenever I, like, came out, that allowed me to not feel guilt. For looking at people and distracted.

FOX: 26:22

I love that. Oh, it released you. Yeah,

Kari: 26:25

it did. And because, I mean, and even, I mean, now I do feel like we're past that, but before we got into this concept that we really played with and like. Indulged in. I always had guilt prior to. And so that kind of opened that veil for me personally, to feel like I'm not wrong for being attracted to other people. I'm not wrong for having feelings for other people. I'm allowed to do that. And That was super helpful for me because I hold on to a lot of shame my entire life onto that shame, thinking that I was wrong for being attracted to other people. And yeah, that was probably my biggest thing that helped me the most. And so if you're listening to this and you're just getting started or you're thinking about getting started, let this be something for you. Open up that veil. Don't have that guilt. Like, like you were saying, like we have this predetermined notion on what, And who we're supposed to be. And I feel like a lot of us are ready to just fucking break that mold. Fuck that break over it. We're done. And that's another part of why we're wanting to talk to you. We're trying to normalize that you're allowed to feel the way you feel without that shame, that you're not wrong, that you're not broken. You're fucking you and you look fucking awesome. Oh my God.

FOX: 27:46

It's like the patriarchy and heterosexuality and monogamy, those are, that is one experience. Humans are expansive and infinite. We cannot be rigid with ourselves. And it's beautiful to experiment and try. And I'm so sorry that you felt that guilt and shame. And I think a lot of us feel that, like, even in the BIPOC community of like, Well, this is who I am. Why am I being like oppressed in this way? Or I'm queer. Why are you oppressing me? Well, that's just one paradigm that people are trying to oppress us with. No, thank you. I am beautiful. I am good. I'm attracted to other people because I have like a rotten energy. I have a sexual self. It didn't die because I got married or because I'm in a relationship. But another thing I want to talk to, uh, today, and I don't think we mentioned it in the first one is that like polyamory isn't for everybody and it isn't for every relationship and it isn't for every moment in your life. It's okay not to be polyamorous. Um, I think the more mainstream it becomes, people might feel a little pressure like, oh, it's the thing to do, which is kind of cute. I love that. But I don't want people feeling pressure, but yeah, you're right. There are other options. But your relationship has to kind of be in a good place to open up. Like it's going to exasperate shit if it's already bad. And I don't think I mentioned that in the first episode, so I wanted to make sure.

Casey: 29:02

That's something that we'd love to talk about. And that's something we did either. And I love that you bring it up now because we do want people to understand that whenever we discussing, whenever we are discussing polyamory, we're not saying that it's not okay to be monogamous. We're not saying that you should feel any sort of way about your chosen relationship style. Your chosen relationship style is what's right for you.

FOX: 29:23

Yeah. It's one that feels good, safe and secure. That's what you should feel in any relationship.

Kari: 29:28

Even right now, we talked about it a minute ago. Time. We are not open right now because we don't have the time. It's not because we don't want to. And it's no other reason than we have a lot personal stuff going on. And then we respect each other and I'll be like, Hey, I personally don't want to be open right now. There's a lot going on and I want us to really focus on us. And then we're going to open that back up. It doesn't have to be this perfect timeline either. It's just whenever you can fit it into your life. And, but we're so ready to explore when things settle down, we can just allow life just to settle a bit. And that's another part of it. Because like you said, Casey, we're not shaming at all, not at all part of your life or never in your life. But again, this episode is to help you understand if it is for you.

FOX: 30:22

Yeah, and let me ask you to a personal question if you want to answer as it's being recorded and it's gonna be on the internet. I'll answer it first. Okay. Okay. Okay. Consent. Hell yes to consent. When you do start dating, if it feels like you're polysaturated, like, okay, we have too many lovers or there's too much going on, we need to slow down. How do y'all manage that if you already have a metamorphosis or another lover and there's feelings involved? How do you distance yourself? Do you break up? Like, do you let it phase out naturally? Like what happens?

Kari: 30:52

So we have always had conversations. It's always been, but there. Anyone that we've dated in the past, they've been fairly integrated into our family. Like they come over, we all like cook together. They like, I don't say they help out, but like, they're part of the tribe. And so,

Casey: 31:12

yeah, we've never experienced like that parallel polyamory of she has a relationship and it's mixed in some, on some level, but it's

Kari: 31:19

always been led with always with the conversation. And most times it's ended in us still hanging out, us still being friends, just knowing that we need to focus on us, but we also preface it beforehand. And we've told them there may come a time. That we personally need to pull back. I don't know that we've ever had such a strong connection yet, but I also feel like we've been very clear and community has been very

FOX: 31:46

strong. That's transparent communication. They have the power to say, Oh, well I might get too involved. So I'm not going to be, I don't want to be in a hierarchical situation. I love that. That's so awesome.

Casey: 31:58

That's one of the big things that we have. We know there's a lot of people out there that, uh, look down on any form of hierarchical. Polyamory. It's unethical. It's not okay. Our personal view on it. Is that right?

FOX: 32:10

Sorry. I rolled my eyes. I'm sorry. I'll verbalize what I meant in a moment.

Casey: 32:17

Well, the way that we see it is as long as there's clear and open community, let's just say, and listen we do come from a 15 year relationship and we are considering ourselves as the anchor of all of this. So we've made the question. to come out. If you're okay with that, we'll want to pursue this.

Kari: 32:35

You

Casey: 32:35

can have that conversation. And they've

Kari: 32:37

never not wanted to pursue it. Because we've been very clear.

FOX: 32:42

I love, I mean, that's beautiful. That's love. People are going to ebb and flow out of diets to triads to quads. Don't, we can't shape, we can't marginalize an already marginalized population. Why are we making rules on how to love? How is it unethical to have an anchor partner? I mean, that just happens naturally. Sometimes if you have a child with someone, you're sharing more time investment and domestic responsibilities, and I absolutely, this hierarchical thing, it's unethical. It's unethical. It, how it can't, it's impossibly unethical if you are giving people empower transparency communication because they can say, you know what, that works perfect for me. I want to be in a hierarchical situation where I'm secondary because I don't want to give you all my energy either. So this is great. Or you know what? No, thank you. Because eventually I might want to live with y'all.

Casey: 33:28

And I don't know, so you know what, and we've had a relationship before where somebody came to us and said, Hey, at this point, I now want to go and look for a more serious relationship. So we're going to end things here. Or go back to being friends. We all hang out and I'm going to go look for my, a primary partner for myself.

Kari: 33:47

Yeah. And then we're all friends and we all hung out and it was fine.

FOX: 33:53

Like shine the light on that carry. I love that because. That is so polyamorous to be like, we didn't just break up, we just ended maybe the sexual component of the relationship, but we were still intimate and connected and kind and had a friendship. That's polyamory. You don't have to break up. You can do other things that make sense. Okay, go ahead.

Kari: 34:12

No, I mean, honestly that's exactly what happened. That's perfect. And then you're right. Like it doesn't have, and that is such a monogamy mindset too. As we break up, we're never talking again. You are dead to me. Yes. It's not really like that in the queer community. We're all still friends.

Casey: 34:28

Okay. So well, that's the point that I was about to come up and be like, I don't know if this is going to like coming from me as like a, It's just hetero male sound ignorant, but I feel like looking at that where the ability to flow in and out of relationships that have sexual, uh, tendencies that remove from that, that remain friends and all that. I feel like that's like a corner cornerstone of the queer community. And I have such like respect for the queer community because I've watched so many of my friends be like, well, we're dating and now we're not dating and we're still hanging out all the time. And I'm dating this person. It just flows.

FOX: 35:02

There's fluid, fluidity.

Casey: 35:05

And I'm like, you don't see this. No. You have so many toxic people online that it's like, it's impossible for, you know, males and females to be friends and it's impossible to do this. And I'm sitting there doing it all the fucking time. And they say, okay,

FOX: 35:24

The amazing thing about not being heterosexual is there's no longer a script. And when there is no script, there is this expansive potential of rewriting a script based on your values and beliefs. That's what I love about like polyamory and queer communities and even kink. It's like, let's write this in a way that works for everybody. What do you love? What turns you on? We don't have to do it like everybody else. And I think that like fills us up with love because all of a sudden there's no rules. We get to make them. And as long as there's compassion, consent, transparency, respect, and attunement, we're watching out for each other, we're good to go. There's no wrong way to love unless you're hurting someone. That's not love.

Kari: 36:03

Yeah, that's not love.

Casey: 36:04

Exactly.

FOX: 36:06

And that's a wrap. God, hard people. Yeah, it's so hard. It's just, it's a new way. And you know what? It is unsettling and scary to write a script. Like, like me as a femme, I'm like, Oh my God, how am I going to date a femme? There's no script. I'm so scared. Like all my cute, romantic things I do with the boys, like people who identify as boys, if I do that to like someone's fam, who's fam, they're going to know all my tricks. I'm like, I need a fucking script. I don't know how to do this, but it's also exciting. Cause I get to, um, really like look into myself and be aware of what's feeling good. And I don't know, I kind of like being scared. It's, it makes me feel alive. Like I get to figure this out on my own terms.

Casey: 36:42

Absolutely cut.

FOX: 36:44

I'm reading Girl Sex one on 1 0 1 right now. Yeah. Which is about like how to be like obviously with Vulvas and how to be, and I'm just like, oh my God, I can't believe I have a vulva and I don't know these things. Like no one taught me. Right. But wait, Casey, what? You were just laughing a moment ago. What were you laughing at?'cause I wanna know,

Casey: 37:02

take me back to what we were saying was because I, my brain went Me too and then we just moved on. So back, I think we something.

FOX: 37:10

Oh, no script. Not having a script makes you it liberates you. You can

Casey: 37:15

You caught me, huh?

FOX: 37:17

Yeah, I caught you, bitch! Sorry, you're not a bitch. I mean,

Casey: 37:21

no, you're not. You're a bitch in a good

FOX: 37:22

way. You're

Casey: 37:23

a bitch. You're fine. You're completely okay. No, you had said that you were talking about, uh, um, Being a femme. Oh yeah. And then flirting or becoming more sexualized with another fem and how do you handle that and all that. And I immediately in my head, thought about Carrie be because Carrie is switches between, you switch between fem and mask. Oh yeah. And I've seen Carrie and I've seen Carrie go, like, for somebody that's more femme and then watch her become more masked in that moment, and then watch her flirt. That's somebody, and then go with somebody that's more masked. And then watch it become like vastly feminine. So I'm on the outside end watching that and it just triggered some memories of mine that I'm like, Oh my God.

Kari: 38:04

It's because I adapted the situation. If you need me to take control, I'm gonna do it really fast. But if you take control, I'm gonna let you.

FOX: 38:12

Oh, yeah, that is so erotic to me that you are so expansive and you can just flow in and out. And I love both. I mean, wow. That's how I want to live my life. When I die, I want to have experienced as many edges and parts of my heart and soul as possible, as parts of my erotic and sexual self. Like, I want to have bumped up against the end of myself in this lifetime. There you go.

Kari: 38:40

It's really funny though, because when Casey was smirking, I was having the thought in my head of, I was like, Oh, you just dominate him. That's easy. I know. That's so hot. Literally smirking while I had that. I know. I saw

FOX: 38:53

the whole fucking thing unfold right before my eyes. I'm really into being dom. Like I didn't know I would like that, but there is something it's that taboo nature. It's that power dynamic. And yeah, I want consent first. Like don't just fucking dom me when I'm in the kitchen. Like, You, I, like, I need a little bit of, like, forewarning, um, and consent and talk about it, but yes, sexually, I'm, like, dom me, and I don't want to tell you how to dom me, I want you to know how to dom me, because I can't dom me. Because you're a

Kari: 39:18

brat.

FOX: 39:19

Huh?

Kari: 39:20

Because you're a brat.

FOX: 39:21

Oh. You think so? Yes, I think there's a load of. Wait, can we define brat? What is, what do you mean? Because I'm like, wait, am I a

Kari: 39:30

brat? Because for me, you want to be dominated, but you don't want to tell them how to, that's a brat.

Casey: 39:35

That's. Because I think there's

Kari: 39:37

like a definition of Brad. There's like a specific That's not a

Casey: 39:40

definition. That's a characteristic. Fine, but I'll go

Kari: 39:43

with that. I'll easily go with that. But

Casey: 39:45

that person wants to push back.

Kari: 39:47

Yeah. It's a pushback. The

Casey: 39:48

brat is the person that wants to like push back. If somebody is trying to like be more dominant, tell them what to do. And they're going to turn back around and push back and give them the challenge and give them the resistance.

FOX: 39:57

So it's not truly being done then.

Casey: 40:00

So it can be, but it's that power of the sub to be like, I'm going to allow this domination to occur, which you'd be submissive to a person that you choose to be submissive to being submissive. But there's all those different types. It can be one of those that it's like is dumb sub where they're like very So very submissive where it's like, whatever you say to do, I'm going to do it. And then also that buddy stuff that is like, you're going to tell me what to do. And I'm going to turn around and I'm going to tell you, no, respond to that with like, okay, well now we're going to go and you're going to get punished. It's

Kari: 40:39

really what we want in the first place.

Casey: 40:41

See, yes, we're going to go up there and we're going to do some impact play and you're going to be like, Oh no,

FOX: 40:48

I'm totally learning something about myself today. Thank you so much for teaching me. You know what? I am a brat. And my partner told me that like, if I go on a date, like, When I do go on a date, and if I come home, I'm like, Okay, well, I like, kissed a femme today, cause that's like, that's where I'm resonating right now, is with femmes. If I come home and I kissed a femme, then I'm gonna get a penance. And I was like, wait, I'm gonna get punished? I was like, well, can I just have the punishment now? He's like, no, bitch! You have So that's really fun. I love how we're, we keep going, hitting up against kink today, even though we're supposed to

Kari: 41:21

have you on again, but just about kink.

FOX: 41:24

Well, I need to finish my Kate Sloan book and then I'll come back and we'll talk about kink. Cause I want to learn everything I can. And I want to go to some play parties, you know, even if I'm a voyeur, a consensual voyeur, I want to like see what's up in these kink communities, have some fun.

Casey: 41:39

Go hit up your local dungeon is a really good way to do that and find one in your area. Go to a dungeon night where there may be focusing on impact play or Shabari or they're focusing on a lot of them through they'll host events on a weekly basis where it's, there's a certain focus and you show up. You don't have to participate. You can be an observer. And

FOX: 41:59

not all of them are like having actual, like people having like intercourse or penetration or close off. There's all different types of speeds and variations. Nine 10. We host a really good one in Los Angeles and they have events all the time. I've been to one centric because sometimes BIPOC community. We want to maybe stay with each other and feel safe, and that's just the way, and sometimes we don't, that's up to us. But um, Squeeze LA and 910 WeHo got together at one point and did something, and it was so sexy. And it was like red lights, and like there was a spanking area, and like there was a strip tease, it was so beautiful. But I do want to go to something soon. Plora also has a bunch of events. Okay. I don't know where you are, but you don't have to tell me. I'm like,

Casey: 42:43

Oh, we're in Fort Worth, Texas. If

FOX: 42:46

you come to LA, can we meet?

Casey: 42:48

100%.

FOX: 42:49

Okay.

Casey: 42:50

That would be fun. Can we be friends? Oh, yes, of course we can. We have, I mean, I thought we already were. Oh, yeah, that was the answer I was

FOX: 42:58

looking for. Carrie. I just

Kari: 43:00

called all your personal stuff. So we're basically our best friends now.

FOX: 43:04

Oh my god, you're my best friend.

Casey: 43:08

Okay. All right. So, uh, it looks like we have just a little bit of time left. Yeah, I want to cover another question and I think this one is super pertinent is this is so we want to talk about how to handle whenever your partner starts moving faster than you do and the dating communities of polyamory. So for an example, say that me and Carrie were open and all of a sudden she's got like dates just coming down the pipe. She's literally like, Oh, I'm going on one on Tuesday and then on Thursday I have Saturday. And then I might sit back and be like, I'm still looking or I only have this one person I'm in a relationship with right now is how do you handle those like different drives of wanting to be in various relationship types?

FOX: 43:52

Do you mean like when someone's going faster than you're comfortable with? Or do you mean, what do I do when my partner's dating and I'm not dating and I wish I was?

Casey: 44:00

Um, I'd love to cover both of those.

FOX: 44:04

Just kidding. Okay. I don't know why I did that. Um, okay, so we'll do the first one. If your partner's dating faster than you, and it's uncomfortable, I think we need to sit down and ask each other, why are we doing this together? Cause we're not single. Single means I can do whatever I want, whenever I want, with whoever I want. Poly, doing polyamory we're a team, we're doing it together. We're attuning to each other. We're seeing if each other is activated. So if one person is moving faster, I know it can be frustrating to slow down, but if you are going at such a fast rate that it's harming your partner, even though you don't mean to, it's not going to be sustainable. Everyone in polyamory has to benefit. Otherwise they're not going to want to do it. Some monog, more monogamous leaning people or people who want to move slow. They're saying, well, my goal in polyamory is just to make my partner happy. That's why I'm doing it. That's not a strong enough goal. You need a reason for yourself. Why does it bring you joy? Why does it benefit you? Why does it benefit your relationship? So if you're going too fast, someone's going too fast, you're going to end up maybe frustrated, really sad, kind of traumatized and you're not going to want to do it. So, you know, in polyamory it's like, Hey, we could not be together and I could just go fuck and love whoever I want. Or if we're going to do it together, why is it special between us? Why are we doing it together?

Casey: 45:20

So I'd love to bring it back around to like, what does it benefit us versus you're not just going off and living a single life. That's the

FOX: 45:29

urgency. Like, let's look at why you're urgent. Sometimes people have felt controlled or stifled in their earlier life. So once they have the free pass to be liberated, they just they go. It's like their nervous system's like, go. Or if maybe developmentally at a certain age, maybe you didn't get to experience being queer or knowing your authentic self or being polyamorous. So now once you have the label, you're like, I have to go do it now. So looking at what is that sense of urgency about and how are you impacting others? And if you are going to slow down it, but you're frustrated. What other channels can you use to kind of download that love and that fuel for life and that passion? Like, what other ways can you meet your needs while you're going slow until your partner catches up? Because we want polyamory to be sustainable. Otherwise, we're just gonna give up. It's gonna suck.

Casey: 46:17

Yeah. And if you, like you said, if you just kind of shoot out the gate and go for it through all this stuff with that sense of urgency, it's not sustainable.

FOX: 46:23

Yeah. But I get that it's frustrating for the faster person. I understand that, but you know, we don't get everything. Well, Hey, this, the person who wanting to go slower, they're uncomfortable too.

Casey: 46:32

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. That was going to be a curiosity cause I know that you can have people that open up into this and you might have a partner that's out there to seek a deep, deeper connection in a relationship. And another partner that's like, well, I'm here for the hookup culture. Yeah. So like trying to reconcile those different, Viewpoints, it can be a very difficult thing to do. Yeah, I

FOX: 46:53

think defining, when you start, before you start polyamory, or at least once you've started and it's already like full force ahead, what is dating? Because for some people it's just fucking, for some people it's just play parties, for some people it's just dating. Platonic romantic relationships. For some people it's like, Oh, I'll be home tomorrow. That's a dating. And you're like, what? I just met you. We're going to go and have pad Thai. And now you're coming home in the morning. So define what dating is. And I think we should start checking in with our lovers before polyamory begins of what have been your dating experiences? Have you been traumatized or hurt in the past? What was your relationship like with your parents? Like kind of being a little bit of a therapist and investigating, because that's going to say a lot about their dating style. Yeah. Yeah, and what's going to work for them and then negotiate and, you know, just be really specific about what we're doing and, you know, write down your relationship agreements and they're going to evolve as you get safe, more safe and secure. That's the amazing thing. As you get comfortable with each other, I think your dating styles could probably align, but you know, if you're uncomfortable with your partner's dating style, you're going to want to talk about it.

Casey: 47:54

Yeah, those that dating style stuff is one thing that we like to talk to people about whatever they're going through their regular, their, you know, monogamous relationship as we try, we tell as many people as we can, is to figure out as much about yourself as possible, as much about your partner as possible, not only just in experiences, but what are your separate, what are your attachment styles? What are you, if you could, the more you can really. Becoming attuned to yourself and with your partner, the more chances of success you have and the less chance you have about like really creating some damage that might be irreparable to your relationship.

FOX: 48:29

Word. Yes. We don't think about that cause we're just so excited, but yeah, it would be wonderful to create a little safety vessel for you and your partner. to kind of reconnect polyamory check ins once a week. What's going well? What isn't? Are you getting your needs met? Is anything harming you? Are you saying yes when you meet, when you mean to say no? Do you feel pressured in anything? Are we going too fast? Are we going too slow?

Kari: 48:51

I like that. I

FOX: 48:52

hope everyone was writing those down that quickly. Write that shit down. Write it down. Use it. I'm like doming the audience. I'm so sorry. I didn't even ask. No, I'm just kidding. So much compassion. We are just human. We are just Trying to be excited and love. I totally understand. Yes.

Casey: 49:12

Fox. You're amazing.

FOX: 49:14

You're amazing.

Casey: 49:17

I mean, like you're going like, we're already running out of time. I'm going, damn it. I

FOX: 49:21

know I, we have such chemistry. I was telling my lover, I really love these two. Like are doing a podcast with them. There's just all this frenetic. It beautiful chemistry and energy and I wanna say thank you. Thank you for having me on your show. Of course. Well, we're happy to have you. Well, I'm being

Kari: 49:36

very serious about having you back on. Like, I agree. There's a such a good flow. We're gonna

Casey: 49:40

fly it to LA and we're gonna find a podcast. You, we a live episode. And we're gonna do, we're rent it out day. Y'all gonna a live one? No, we're gonna, oh my God. I'm

FOX: 49:48

be sitting between you two like this. We're not even, we're gonna be so distracted. We're not gonna do it. And you know what? Yes. Like, let's. Like one day we'll meet in person, but we're gonna do more podcasts. I'm writing a book. Yep. Yes. That's a process. But, and then, um, people can find me at the polyamory therapist everywhere. I have a website and on the social medias. But yeah, I wanna reconnect with you two. So this won't be the last thing we do at all. No,

Kari: 50:12

no.

FOX: 50:12

We have, we're in a relationship. This is a type of polyamory podcast. Sorry that was a bad joke. I told you I'm not good at Jokes.

Casey: 50:19

Podcast Ann Marie. Got it. All right. Well, for another episode of come with Casey, we are your host.

Kari: 50:27

I'm Carrie Sanders. I'm Dr. Casey

Casey: 50:29

Sanders.

Kari: 50:30

I'm Fox Arrows.

Casey: 50:31

And there's Fox Arrows. Thanks again, Fox. And we'll see you next time.

FOX: 50:37

I'll miss you. Bye. Bye.