The Sugar Daddy Podcast
Ready to normalize talking about money? Then welcome to The Sugar Daddy Podcast, where talking about money isn't taboo, and you can leave your past money mistakes at the door! Every episode will get you one step closer to your financial goals. Whether that is learning how to invest, budget, save, retire early or simply make better money choices, Jess & Brandon have got you covered in a way that's easy to understand. Tune in as they demystify the realm of dollars, so it all makes cents, while giving you a glimpse into their relationship with money and each other.
The Norwoods are a married, millennial couple, here to help you build wealth, so you can live the life you've always dreamed of. Brandon is an award winning licensed financial planner, and owner of Oak City Financial, with over a decade of experience and millions of dollars managed for his clients all over the United States.
New episodes published the first three Wednesdays of every month.
The Sugar Daddy Podcast
REWIND: How to Quit Your Way Rich with Career and Negotiation Coach, Mandi Money
Tune in as Jessica and Brandon interview Mandi Woodruff-Santos aka Mandi Money, who is a globally recognized career expert, founder of the MandiMoney Makers™️, and co-host of the 3-time WEBBY award winning podcast, Brown Ambition. Through her online career coaching community, she is on a mission to help women of color achieve their wildest financial and career ambitions. If you’re ready to learn more about negotiating your next salary, want to stop settling for less and level up your career, then this episode is for you.
If you’d like to leave us a question to be answered during future episodes, you can do so at Speakpipe. We can’t wait to hear from you!
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Notes from the show:
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Where did you learn that? Was that through your role in finance and production? Or was that just something that came from within, where you're like no, I'm going to test the waters and negotiate.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've been asked that before. Even my therapist was like why do you do those things? Why are you okay with just starting over? I was like I don't know, Isn't that your job? To figure me out, You're?
Speaker 1:like I'm paying you for this. Hey everyone, Welcome to the Sugar Daddy podcast. I'm Jessica and I'm Brandon, and we're the Norwoods, a husband and wife team here to demystify the realm of dollars so it all makes sense while giving you a glimpse into our relationship with money and each other. We are so glad you're here. Let's get started.
Speaker 3:Our content is intended to be used, and must be used, for informational purposes only. It is very important to do your own analysis before making any investment based upon your own personal circumstances. You should take independent financial advice from a licensed professional in connection with, or independently research and verify any information you find in our podcast and wish to rely upon, whether for the purpose of making an investment decision or otherwise.
Speaker 1:Babe, I am so excited, Totally fangirling over here. We have Mandy Money on the podcast today. Can you believe it?
Speaker 4:You made it happen.
Speaker 1:Woo, I slid into my DMs. Listen, I love a good DM. Okay, if you do it the right way and you're genuine, I feel like amazing things can happen.
Speaker 4:I feel you have a really good job of reaching out to people that you don't necessarily know on Instagram and actually getting a response, because I don't think that would work so well for me. Well, I never would have slid into your DMs. You're amazing.
Speaker 2:You have to catch people at the right time. I once I slid into I like I didn't well, before sliding into DMs, I emailed someone I really admired, didn't hear back for like a year. I found out she had a brain aneurysm and I was like, oh, she hates me, but it turns out so, you never know. You got to, it's the timing, you know. So, even Even if they don't reach out, I'm constantly telling people to like cold LinkedIn, connect and send messages and stuff. And there is this fear like what if I don't hear back? And I'm like, if that's the worst thing that happens, just do it.
Speaker 1:That's my motto. What's the worst that can happen? Also, my connection request with you on LinkedIn is pending, so now that we're going to be best friends, I need that fixed, okay.
Speaker 2:Okay, great, call me out on it right now. I'll get in there?
Speaker 1:Okay, perfect. Well, listen, we're. We have a lot to talk about. Mandy is a big deal and I love, we love Brown ambition. We love Mandy moneymakers. Listen, I will be up in my bed anytime you do, you know a free workshop or anything. I'm there in the bed with my headphones on and I'm like you got to put the kids to sleep. I've got a session. I've got to listen to what Mandy has to say. So huge fan, so honored and delighted to have you here, while making a whole human and all the things. Yeah, likewise, thank you for having me. Yes, of course. So let's get into this bio so that everybody understands who you are and why I'm so excited and why you're such a big deal. Okay, all right. Mandy Woodruff Santos is a globally recognized career expert, founder of the Mandy Moneymakers and co-host of the two-time almost three. We're going to speak it into three.
Speaker 2:Today we found out, we won. Oh my God, I we found out.
Speaker 1:We won. Oh my God, Congratulations. I voted Yay, congratulations, Thank you. Okay, so three-time Webby award-winning podcast Brown Ambition, we will link it because it's amazing and I love the conversations you and Tiffany have. Through her online career coaching community, the Mandy Moneymakers, she is on a mission to help women of color achieve their wildest financial and career ambitions. With over 6 million podcast downloads and over 65,000 followers across Instagram, TikTok, LinkedIn and more, Mandy has created a unique community of BIPOC baddies ready to stop settling for less and level up in their careers. Ready to stop settling for less and level up in their careers. As a negotiation and career expert, Mandy is a regular contributor to Yahoo Finance Live and has been featured on the New York Times, CNBC, CNN, the Dr Phil Show, ABC World News Tonight, CBS this Morning, Business Insider, Essence, Teen Vogue and more. Girl do you sleep?
Speaker 2:Yes, lots.
Speaker 1:Oh, maybe that's, maybe that's, let's keep this in perspective.
Speaker 2:This is this took a decade to build that bio. Okay, so I'm not doing that every day, but yeah, overnight success that took 10 years, right?
Speaker 1:well, listen, that bio is on fire. I'm I'm so proud of you. I've I feel like I've been on this journey with you and I've seen the growth and just everything that you've done for the community and I just think it's really incredible, so you have so much to be proud of.
Speaker 2:Thank you. Thank you so much, I receive it.
Speaker 1:So we want to kick off with your first or earliest money memory today.
Speaker 2:Yeah, whenever people ask me this question, I tend to well, there's a couple and they're both like kind of sad. But the first one is I remember my I'm a child of divorce and I always want to say Adele, divorce, both of us. Yeah. So I remember my parents constantly fighting about money and that was definitely one of the precipitating factors that triggered their divorce. But I was around I don't know like between seven and 10 and they had a particularly bad fight and I had this like pencil shaped like a Crayola crayon, shaped piggy bank, and I remember I left it out overnight with like a little note for my mom Like I hope this helps, please don't fight anymore note for my mom like.
Speaker 2:I hope this helps. Please don't fight anymore. I told you.
Speaker 2:It was sad I was not expecting that I know. And then the other one that I tell is like my mom going to jc penny, like we would go together and she was always looking for like a bigger accordion wallet, like the ones that could fit more cards. You know the big fat suckers that they used to sell. Do they still sell them? Um, those, those are some of the you know those moments for me, yeah, so money was in, not in high supply and not necessarily something that sparked much joy and in my, in my youth. But that all changed when I learned I had control in my 20s.
Speaker 4:It was great I always find it so interesting when you hear about, you know, people's early money memories, because you know two individuals can have the same or a similar money memory but how they respond to it can be, you know, completely different. You know, like for me, like I was fortunate enough that even though my mom raised my brother and I from you know, basically age fives when my parents got divorced, that luckily, money was not an issue for us. You know my mom was a college professor and she was, you know, financially responsible. So but you know her frugality is what I picked up on because, you know, with her being a single mom, making sure that my brother and I had everything.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Very frugal woman still to this day, even though she doesn't need to be. But that's exactly how I am.
Speaker 2:Yeah, she had no safety net. Yeah, of course it was just her. So, yeah, I have. I just want to. I just want to like acknowledge single moms I just think that they're freaking or single parents in general, just freaking superheroes, what they have to do Now that I'm a father?
Speaker 4:I tell her every day I was like I have no idea how you raised my brother.
Speaker 2:My husband's really afraid of me dying now Like he thinks about my mortality way more than ever because he's like you can't go anywhere, yeah you can't do it alone.
Speaker 1:You can't do it alone. I don't know.
Speaker 4:I feel the time I was like she would be the better single parent than I would.
Speaker 2:I don't think I wouldn't be I don't know about that, but do you think that men do? Because you know we're there. But if you had to, you would rise, don't you worry, you'd be the best.
Speaker 4:Never has never. That's the case, hopefully never has to.
Speaker 2:But you know, I'm in my hormonal era so I think about the worst all the time.
Speaker 1:I know, I know one of um doomsday. You're like what's the um? The show that we used to watch um that's us where they would do the worst case scenario and they, like would go really dark. Did you watch that, oh?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What's what are the? Beth and Randall? Yes, I love that, you know honestly, and I've got a friend of mine for our news to Robbie.
Speaker 2:She's another really excellent podcaster and personal finance educator and she has a book coming out called healthy state of panic and I just love the title and the premise because I believe and through my own coaching, like as a career coach and negotiation coach, a lot of my practice and my philosophies are based on being ready for what if you know, but not necessarily letting that keep you in bed under the covers Like why do I even bother? But how can that propel you forward? How can that make you make smart decisions with your career so that you are better prepared you? I like to live in the space of optimistic optimism, but also reality.
Speaker 4:Yeah, as a financial advisor, I plan for worst case scenario Exactly. It's not going to happen, but if we can get through worst case scenario, then you're good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly A hundred percent.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well. And two, sometimes the planning aspect of planning for the worst helps lessen that fear and anxiety, because then you do end up prepared Right and then, when you're not faced with the worst, then you can celebrate.
Speaker 2:So I think you think about the worst long enough to prepare, and then you let it go, because you can't ultimately predict or you know, but it makes you feel like you know, that you've got the safety net, you know that you've got things in place, you know, and then? But the point, the key is not to get stuck in that cycle of only living in the space of bad things will happen Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, cause that's debilitating and not healthy.
Speaker 4:I also say like a lot of people have anxiety around money for like two main reasons. One, the lack of financial literacy. So you know, they just simply don't understand and don't know what they're supposed to do. But then also the second part is that they don't have a plan.
Speaker 2:So you know, having a plan in place obviously helps lessen a lot of that anxiety. Yeah, I totally agree. The hard part is convincing people to do that work when they're just in survival mode every day, doing their best. You know, yeah, so you do that work.
Speaker 1:Well, Brandon, one of his favorite things to say is if I have to convince you that you need a financial advisor, you're not ready, Cause he's like you need to come to me knowing that you are ready for help. And he said we were planning for another event that we have this week, and he made the analogy of you don't go to a personal trainer when you've got a six pack of abs and 11% body fat. You go when your goal is to get there, if that's what it is, and so, same thing, you don't go to a financial advisor once you have millions. You go when you have the means to pay for one and you're ready to receive the guidance and the education.
Speaker 2:So yeah, either way. I think sometimes it happens the other way too. I think sometimes you, especially with you, know me and my career. It wasn't until I had extra money to think about that I was like, okay, maybe I should be doing something with this. And then I, and then you start thinking what else can be done beyond the 401k and you start getting like a little ambitious. And then that thing, that's where you need someone to like rein you in and remind you that you know the, the basic vanilla financial. You know practices are really the sexiest things you could be doing, you know.
Speaker 4:I always say you know, good financial planning is boring.
Speaker 1:It's not sexy.
Speaker 4:Yeah exactly.
Speaker 1:Well, Mandy, so you mentioned the bio, taking you 10 years to get to right education and the training that you're doing with your Mandy moneymakers. You were a financial journalist, editorial leader. Talk to us about where Mandy moneymakers came from, where that started, why that started and how it's grown over the years.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm a sucker for alliteration and I'm lazy, so Mandy Moneymakers just came from that I had, yeah. So I started my career. Well, I studied as a journalist and when I moved to New York, I sort of accidentally found my way into covering personal finance. It was the great recession and I learned that. I really loved it. It was juicy and there was enough to sink my teeth into. I felt like I was challenged and I felt like there was a need for it to have really great reporters and reporting of what was happening, especially for millennials from my generation, our generation. And then I did really well.
Speaker 2:I spent the next decade really building a brand and a reputation as a great financial journalist. And then I wanted to be a leader. I knew I had the stuff to be a leader, so I pursued an opportunity to run content for a startup and that sort of kicked off a six-year period where I was on the other side not necessarily writing as much, but managing writers and managing a team and overseeing strategy, and that introduced me to a whole different side of corporate and went through an acquisition and it was all great. And then, around 2021, I took what I thought was going to be a dream job for myself and ended up not being a dream job for myself and ended up not being a dream job. And I was so lucky that when it didn't work out, I didn't have to immediately scramble to get another. Nine to five. I had time to reflect and it was with my financial advisor shout out to Brandon and the work that you had to do my financial advisor, helen, that we had a meeting after I decided not to go back and she was the one to say you could do this. I've seen what you've done in five years and if you want to branch out on your own, you've got the savings for it. You've got something you can do. You can do it. And I was like, okay, and I really credit my 22 through 28 year old self for making some really key financial choices that enabled me to be in a position where I could start my own business and not have to go back and work for someone else because I didn't want to at that time.
Speaker 2:So I spent 2021, I got some consulting clients to bring some income in immediately and then I played and then I wanted to see could I talk about career? Could I help people and coach them? I had been doing it for so long through Brown Ambition I've always been the nine to five girly and Tiffany was always the business baddie. So we had a great kind of you listen, we had a great sort of we could just very complimentary to one another with our skills and our knowledge. And then I started to offer free sessions. I like posted on IG, 200 women signed up and I was doing free half hour coaching sessions through like six months over a six month period, wanted to get in to the heart of what women were going through, women of color, what was plaguing us in our careers, what kept us up at night, what we needed and you know it was unique.
Speaker 2:It was a sense of isolation and, um, the sense of feel.
Speaker 2:You know what the, the comp like, the compounding impact of being the only one or being one of few for years and years and years throughout your career, and creating this sense of like I'm lonely. I want community, I want connection, I want more confidence and not really having a place to go for that. So from that I decided to launch my community. So it's not just a career coaching course or a place where I do group coaching, but it truly is a place where these women from so many diverse backgrounds, so many different countries now I've got makers in Kenya, nigeria, australia so it's great and we gather together and really lift one another up. And that is what I think is really unique about my community and my program, because I truly listened to what women were wanting and it wasn't just teach me how to negotiate, it was teach me how to survive after the negotiation, teach me how to have a support system in place so that, when and if something goes wrong, I have a place to go to for support and to bounce back from.
Speaker 1:I love that. I do want to pivot back. All of that was amazing. I want to pivot back to what you said at the very beginning, with your money memory you putting your Crayola piggy bank on the table, trying to help mom. You were living in New York. You were young. I've listened to all of you Georgia, I'm from Georgia yes, but then when you moved to New York and you were working yes, yes, yes, salary wise like you were making a good living, but it's New York, so you weren't right.
Speaker 2:Well, I wasn't, and it's also New York so doubly so I was not making great money, exactly I was making like 30K, yeah, but you had savings.
Speaker 1:How did you learn that you needed savings and how to be fiscally responsible so that you didn't have to go back to a toxic work environment when you were like this is not working?
Speaker 4:Yeah, especially since it wasn't, I guess, modeled for you, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly. Well, I think that the I had enough. I don't know. I was always the kind of person to observe and to really see how people in my family were responding to certain events and then critically think about how I would do it differently. And I felt like when I was in my twenties I felt like I had the stage now like I'm going to show them I can do things differently and I'll do it this way go to college and not, you know, not have a bunch of kids and you know, and and try to be fiscally responsible. Of course, I thought I knew it all and I was like perfect and whatever. I obviously wasn't.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah, right like every 20 year old but yeah, but for me, when I moved to New York, I I got a job.
Speaker 2:I, you know, I got a job during the great recession at a magazine which was my dream, and three months into working it I was lit, I was laid off, and for me that was a really early wake-up call that if I didn't get it together sooner rather than later, um, I would end up I was no different than other people that I had judged, you know, like it doesn't have to be because you did something wrong. It's just that, you know, something out of your control happened and you just didn't happen to have what you needed to push, to bounce back. And I remember that feeling of financial insecurity and being like I thought I was going to be different, you know. And so, from there, it was really dedicating myself to education and, like I said, I accidentally ended up covering personal finance a couple of years later and that really gave me such a great, you know, such a great education. I literally got to talk to people like yourself, brandon, every day and pick their brains about what we should be doing, and I took their advice for free.
Speaker 2:I'll quote you an article, but I don't know what to do if I've been let go and I learned about the 401k and I learned about contributing 10% and how compounding interest works and little by little, it felt like I was unlocking cheat codes that hadn't really been available or taught to me, like so many others in my position, and that's really what made a difference. I don't know. I mean, I do and I don't. I don't know if I hadn't had to do it for work, I don't know how quickly I would have really embraced financial education. I was definitely attracted to, like. There was a lot of bloggers that came out. Tiffany, for example her budget needs to blog. I met her because I wrote about her for business insider when I was a reporter there, because I was looking for cool, you know, financial educators. But I really am grateful that I had that opportunity to make it my job to get smarter about money.
Speaker 1:Oh, I love that.
Speaker 4:I was actually living in New York during the great recession as well.
Speaker 1:Okay, we survived, barely made it out.
Speaker 4:I was only there for a few months. Then I was like I don't think this is quite for me, so oh, really A few months. Scaredy cat. I was there for when I say a few, probably like five or six.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh pish posh, that's an internship, I'm just kidding. Fine, where do y'all live now?
Speaker 1:We're in Raleigh, yep, right outside of Raleigh.
Speaker 2:I just read the book on the top shelf and I'm like duh. Oh, yeah, yeah. I was like what book? Yeah, that is that's where we are great city. If you're ever here, definitely let us know. The carolinas are popping man. Everyone wants to live in the carolinas now and georgia cost of living is not bad. Yeah, the cost of living. I know don't have, don't have to tell me, but I married a new york city government worker so I'm a little stuck for now.
Speaker 4:Yeah, it was interesting how you were talking about, as far as um, the obtaining the knowledge, as far as from a financial literacy standpoint. So for myself I came from a middle upper middle-class family School for the most part came fairly easy to me, so I would say I did well in school and still none of those aspects were really actually taught to me. The aspect of being able to save and not spend more than what you make I saw that through my mom. But the more deeper stuff as far as, like I'm saying, with your 401k plan and stuff like that, I didn't get that. So I was probably like I mean, I didn't become a financial, I didn't get into finance until I was 29 and so, like I, you know, a couple years prior to that is when I started to actually really pay attention to that and it just phrased to me that something that's so important. Even if you go through, quote unquote, the right route for schooling wise, you still don't learn it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you know, you think, and it's you think that you've got a job and you're doing like that's the goal, right, is to get a job and get income. And then you're looking at this paycheck and you're like, now how am I supposed to get that house that everyone has and have the babies and pay for all these things with this paycheck? And so the key is really understanding how to grow your wealth, and for me, it was a key to helping me understand or start to think of my career as a wealth building engine, not just like one of the best ways, besides budgeting, to increase your net worth is to make more. And that really became apparent to me early in my career Like, oh, if I just stay here, I'm not getting very far, I'm not going to be able to do these fun. You know investing things to the extent that I want to, so that I have some financial security, and so that's when I started to embrace quitting and quit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a perfect segue because obviously we want to talk about not quiet quitting I know how you feel about that but intentionally quitting right, and why that's so important. And Brandon all the time is telling people like, hey, every two to three years, you've got to test the market, you've got to put yourself out there, you've got to see if you can get a competitive offer. So where did you learn that? Was that through your role in finance and production? Or was that just something that came from within, where you're like no, I'm going to test the waters and negotiate.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've been asked that before. Even my therapist was like why do you do those things? Why are you okay with just starting over? I was like I don't know, isn't that your job to figure me out? You're like I'm paying you for this.
Speaker 2:Here's what I came up with and it's interesting because I have always been the kind of person to be okay with starting over and I think it's because I was a part of like a household that you know. I got parents got divorced when I was 10, I moved to a whole new school and then I moved schools through high school three times, went to three high schools, and so I got. I got kind of addicted to new beginnings and like a new chapter and I would. I was very romantic. I'm a writer. I was like this is my chance. I'll be a whole different person in Henry County, georgia, than I was in Fayette County, georgia, and I'll reinvent myself.
Speaker 2:And then for college, it was the same thing and college is four years and it feels like a fun little chapter. And then you go off. You know I travel and I moved to New York from Georgia and it felt like another new beginning and I think with my career I just got a little antsy after a while and I started to wonder what could be more fun, what could be the next challenge, like sort of always looking for the next fun beginning. And, lucky for me, that mentality also opened me up to the reality that when you are willing to move and you don't stay complacent, that it can really exponentially expose you to opportunities for higher income. When companies are actively wanting to poach you while you're currently employed, they just my hair is soaking wet, so now my hands are anyway, but curls are popping, but I took a shower today.
Speaker 2:So let's be grateful for the small things. This is not a minute for y'all. You're welcome, thank you you're welcome. Yeah, not for my husband, for you guys. Yeah. So the yes. And then really seeing like, oh damn, this little 10% if I'm lucky, you know, not even 10% like 5% annual raise is peanuts compared to this 30% raise I can get if I move on to the next, and so that just began, my. I just had a really healthy perception of new beginnings are okay and you don't actually have to burn bridges and you can maintain relationships and still have a really very diverse career where you are gaining new skills and becoming all that more in demand and unique and have more value to you know your next employer.
Speaker 4:Yeah, a lot of people don't seem to realize that that old sentiment of, like you know, staying at a company for 30 years and showing your loyalty is the best route to go, when in reality now switching jobs, you know, every few years, is what's going to actually increase your salary significantly. If you're not doing that, then you're missing out on a lot of you know potential income that you could be having.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I mean, it didn't work for Don Lemon. He was there 17 years.
Speaker 1:They said bye oh my gosh Scandal of the Mondays, yeah.
Speaker 2:I see that and I'm like see, no one's safe, like no. I'm always finding examples to support my. You know what is it? You're always looking for theory, you're right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4:I always say you have to look out for yourself, like, if it comes down to the bottom line, is either the company or you? They're going to get rid of you. So you should always focus on what's best for you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and as people of color especially, I say that we don't have, we can't afford to, we really can't afford to be loyal or to expect, you know, stability from our employer, because I think we're the most at the financial edges. You know we're on the financial edge when these situations happen and we are often struggling more than any other group to bounce back. So we have the most to lose and we'll have the hardest path back to another job if we let that happen. So that's why I'm so passionate about speaking specifically to women of color, because I just don't want them to feel disempowered or like they have to start all over. I'm all about creating a great, sound professional foundation so that not if, but when something happens like that, you don't, you're not going to get caught off guard and you are prepared as best you can. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I love. I don't remember you have so many programs because again you're just killing it. So I don't remember which webinar I was on, but I loved your advice about you know being active on LinkedIn and having everything updated and putting yourself out there so that people are coming to you and you don't have to actively go and search right. And I was talking to a girlfriend yesterday. She's in a really bad place professionally. She could leave financially. But I was like I'm going to look at your LinkedIn. Her last post was from a year ago no professional headshot, no bio or anything about you know what she's done for the last seven years, et cetera. I think she had one.
Speaker 1:I mean, yes, some people ain't got one, that's true, so you know silver lining there. But I was like we've got to boost this up, bare minimum right, so that people can start seeing that you're open. You've got to, you know, open yourself up to work and all those things. But I just thought that was great advice because if you're networking and you're actively engaging with the community we just did an episode on your network is how you get work right, and so I just thought that fed so beautifully into that. I am really interested, especially as women, women of color. Negotiating doesn't come easy right, and we know, even just from data, that we undervalue ourselves. We don't apply for the job until we have 100% of the requirements checked off, whereas Chad is like, yeah, I'm qualified to negotiate, so talk to us about where that confidence came from. And then, of course, we need to talk about your $100,000 sign on bonus.
Speaker 2:Okay, oh, that's a lot but the workshop you're talking. I only do one master class, it's nail your negotiation, and I offer that on a regular basis nailyournegotiationcom.
Speaker 1:We will link it in the show notes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like an hour and a half and I decided to offer that for free because I think people walk into the negotiation masterclass expecting me to say here's what you say when and if, and here's how to counter, and here's how to be a badass and how to have a firm handshake, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 2:But I spend a lot of time talking about what happens before the negotiation because what I found through my career and what I'm seeing every day through the careers of my Mandy moneymakers is how important it is the platform you build for yourself to like to put you in a place of power when you get to the negotiating table.
Speaker 2:I think honestly I and and then to your point about all the statistics like they'll tell you we're going to earn less, we're not going to be, we're not going to get senior roles and when we do ask for more, we're going to get penalized because of unconscious bias, and all the data is true and I was a reporter covering the same studies and putting those into the world. But I think if we let ourselves believe that that has to be our story, then we lack, we lose that confidence and for me it was always pushing back, it was okay. So what you're saying is I've got to work a little bit harder to get to, yes, but I'm going to do that because what other option do I have? Like, I want to get really good at this so that I can start seeing results. And I think mindset's really important, especially as people of color. Like if we get talking about pessimism, if you think too hard about what it means to wake up in this country, ain't none of us going to want to get out of bed, literally?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I've had to explain that numerous times to people. I'm like if I focus on like being a Black person in America, then like you're not going to want to be around me.
Speaker 2:You'd just be in a safe room and they'd be feeding you through a little hole and you know like because you want to protect you at all costs, right.
Speaker 2:So you know, for me it's about what do you have to gain by expecting the worst that everyone sort of expects of you If we're constantly underestimated because of data? You know I was I just chose to overestimate myself and develop a why not me approach, you know, and I think that that mindset was really instrumental. I didn't let those statistics get me down. I didn't let the fact that when I tried to negotiate early in my career and I heard no stop me from keeping on. It was more of like a challenge to okay, what's it going to take to get to? Yes, and you know, for so many of us I think that, and for me especially, learning how to be a better negotiator came with practice. And I tell people all the time I still negotiate. I'm negotiating a book deal, I negotiate brand deals. It's still kind of stressful and sometimes I do hear no. You know what I mean. But I love the challenge and I love that opportunity. And I think if you stay complacent, you stay in the same role, you know, and you're not even pushing for higher promotions or salaries internally, then you're going to. You know those skills will never really develop. So for me, I put myself into the fire, like I said numerous times throughout my career, just so I could have a chance to get better and better. And it wasn't like my approach really changed with each time I negotiated and I recognized my value changed every time I was in a new position or getting approached by another company. And I want to make it clear I did quit six times in 10 years, but I only ever applied to one job throughout my career. Those opportunities came to me and I recognize how important it is to be like you say be visible, let people be really. I say be kind and easy to find all the time so that people will come to you and they'll know you in your space, in your industry, in your skillset, and they will come to you with opportunities. That was a key to negotiating, was being wanted. And when I started to think of it that way, I'm like oh, it's not about the question or asking, it's about how the person feels about you and how much they want you. And so how can I become the bright, shiny, sparkly thing that people are wanting? And it came through being really damn good at my job. That was key. Don't want to overlook that. Skills matter. Probably be good at your job. That's a good start. And then have you know, develop upskill, develop new skills that made you more you know, attractive to your next job.
Speaker 2:I studied print journalism. Like the only thing that college taught me how to do was write on paper and it wasn't going to cut it Okay, it was not cutting it in the digital media explosion, so I had to quickly build skills in video, podcasting, social media, seo, content marketing. These are things that I learned throughout my career and as I gained new knowledge and skillset. That is how you get to a place. Where can I have a hundred thousand dollars becomes a hell. Yeah, you know, but Mandy, in 2020, 10 was not going to get that signing bonus. Okay, did I do a good job getting us to where you wanted me to go in this like game of questions.
Speaker 1:It's like you've done this before or something. Yeah, Okay.
Speaker 4:And like even at the end of the day, like you know, the guaranteed no is going to come if you don't ask.
Speaker 2:Yes, so not asking as a choice.
Speaker 1:you know, that's my motto is what's the worst that can happen? Yeah, okay, so maybe I slide into Mandy's DMs and she never responds, or we're now sitting here and have a conversation, because what's the worst that can happen, you know?
Speaker 4:I also love that Like it's. It's. I feel like it even starts from like a young age that us males, we tend to be overconfident in comparison to our actual skillset, when females tend to be underconfident in comparison to their skillset. You know, even like my mom's, like I said, my mom's a college professor and she would talk about how, like in elementary school, girls will only raise their hand if they're a 100 percent certain that they know the correct answer. They won't raise their hand if they have any waiver in regards to whether or not they're right, as compared to boys, maybe 40 percent, 50 percent They'll take the chance.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I. You know those again, the statistics. It makes you kind of sad. I wish I had a girl. I want to create a great, but I'll create great boys too.
Speaker 1:But yeah, you can become our daughter anytime.
Speaker 4:You can create great boys that appreciate women like yourself.
Speaker 2:Or that maybe sometimes have a healthy sense of skepticism for their own intellect or, like, stop and pause and question something before just blurting out an answer. Yeah, and it's interesting because I also think it's not just about, it's about the perception Is it bad that girls don't raise their hand if they don't want it Like? Is it a bad trait to want to be sure and to want to understand something thoughtfully? And I don't think so. I think it's like our society also will value the people who are quick to have an answer, to be pithy, to be witty, to be you know, to walk in and be tall and strong and confident, and that's just what our society sort of holds up as this model. And of course, women are just and we're inherently different and I, you know, I'm at the place now where I and I, and I think my generation, our generation specifically I hope, at least for me really embraces the way that women approach decision making.
Speaker 2:Investing, I mean, you guys pay for it. You got higher car insurance premiums, right. You know you're worse investors lot of well-known historical.
Speaker 4:You know investors and I was telling Jess that you know, statistically speaking, from the number standpoint, that women are better investors because they don't overestimate their ability.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we just set it and forget it.
Speaker 4:Yeah, men tend to think that luck is skill. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Or that they can change their circumstances. If they just get in there and they tinker with things, it'll work out better. Yeah, I mean, and I think there's a place in our society for both personalities. It's such a great yin and yang. But what I'm looking for is more appreciation for the way that women approach things and more appreciation for the quiet ones, the introverted ones, more focus and attention on them, not making them feel bad for not being the first to raise their hand, but maybe instead of asking what's the answer, like how would you get to an answer? What's your thought process? What more information do you need, god, if we just had more critical thinking education in this world. I thank God for my background in journalism, because it teaches you how to be skeptical and how to ask questions, but anyways.
Speaker 4:A lot more nowadays.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but another reason why we you know I love, you know, I love working with women and pushing for senior positions, because I believe a leader and what it means, but to go in there and lead from our perspective and show how our version of leadership can be, you know, as successful. So, yeah, that's something that I think about a lot is, is it wrong the way that we do things, or is it just that, you know, we have been again like lifting up this certain we, we've seen this male way of doing things for so long. We think that's best, but is it really?
Speaker 4:I mean, I would even argue, since the beginning of time it's been a male-dominated world, and look where we're at now. So is it that good?
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're just a rib. You're the whole man. We're just a rib, right? Oh my gosh, I get my Sunday school lesson right, yeah?
Speaker 1:Oh my goodness. Ok, let's go back to $100,000 sign on bonus. Ok and yes. Just in case people have not heard the story, I do want them to hear the story.
Speaker 2:OK. The story is that by the time I got to that place in my career, this is the and again, this is for the dream job. That didn't work out. But hey, if you're going to take a risk, make them pay.
Speaker 2:A big reason why I got such a huge sign on bonus is because I had spent five years working for a company that offered equity and at that time I literally had more than a hundred thousand dollars of equity I was leaving on the table because it hadn't invested yet. So with equity and I get this question a lot, so I don't want to take it for granted Equity is when you are given a piece of giving shares in your company's stock as a form of incentive. So company is public and they get, or even private, they can also give you shares and then you have this batch of equity and you can't get it all at once, because that's why they call it the golden handcuffs. They give it to you incrementally over. In my case it was over three year periods. So, yeah, I had a bunch of money I was going to be leaving on the table and, on top of that, I really knew that they wanted me and I really wanted that job and I remember when I got the first offer, it was the base salary was $225,000.
Speaker 2:The signing bonus was $50,000. And the equity was I forget now I have the screenshot Anyway and that's a great offer, yeah, $179,000. So it was a big, you know. It was a decent base salary. Increase in the in the sign-on bonus was fine. But I remember like not feeling like as excited about the offer as I was about the job itself, and I told that to the recruiter. I was like, hey, I think his name was Kevin. I was like, hey, kevin, you know, and it was the next day and I was like I gotta be honest, like I am so excited about this job I know I'm going to kill it. I know that the team thinks I'm going to kill it. This offer does not exactly reflect how excited we all are about this opportunity.
Speaker 4:And I want to be more excited. I actually like that wording. I think that's a perfect way to word it, it's vulnerable but, also baller.
Speaker 1:I need you to level up, yeah, yeah, I mean the fact that can we just pause for a second, that you were like 225 base, 50 000 sign on bonus and you're like I'm gonna unsubscribe to this because you can do better, like that is wow yeah, and at the same, at the time, like I had also been working in fintech for a while and I had worked under a guy, my sponsor, my ally, whatever his name's Nick, you know 50K, just give it to him 5K.
Speaker 2:What is that? Why are we negotiating? Just give it to them. He made these like big. He made you know, he made me realize how money is just thrown around in some sectors. You know, compensation wise all the time, and I think that I benefited from being in his presence a little bit. Now I still know I'm a woman of color, so I can't expect to get, you know, the same kind of treatment, but I definitely. I'm looking at my phone to pull up the offer. Actually, Hold on, let me pull it up. But anyway, this all happened over the phone, so I like to negotiate by phone and then follow up by email. But yeah, the offer that came back, I think so, not face-to-face, is that Well, it was the pandemic came back, I think. So, not face to face.
Speaker 1:Is that.
Speaker 2:Well, it was the pandemic, so it wasn't happening. Oh, his name's Kyle, not Kevin. I was close, yeah. So the base salary stayed the same. They increased the cash sign on from 50 to 125. So it was 125. And then I asked for equity, and I think that was an additional 100K in equity. Yeah, anyway, so there's my startup capital for my business, and I think that's important.
Speaker 1:So did you? Did you accept the offer and then you left early, or did you never accept the offer? What happened?
Speaker 2:Well, I can't really talk about the details of what happened after that because you know lawsuits, but so I did accept the offer and then I left, not that long, I think. I lasted a few months. I lasted a few months and then it was another negotiation, was negotiating the exit, you know which I? I don't know. Maybe I'll feel brave enough to talk about that one day and say F you to the NDA, but for now, yeah, I will say that the negotiation skills served me again at the end and made the best out of a, you know, really shitty situation.
Speaker 2:And I sort of joked after that, like did I really like did that happen, or did I just get like launched out of a rocket? Because I felt like it was just such a it was always meant to be that way. I sort of I had broken the fantasy of. I had been telling myself I need this job to like legitimize myself and get chosen by a big brand to work for them and the brand that everyone knows and everyone loves. And I sort of told myself that this was the next chapter for me, this was the next step before I could do my own thing, and I needed this and I would give me what I needed to get attraction from a book offer, and the things that I really wanted to do was starting my own business, and it was just the way that it worked out. I realized all along that that was just a story. I had told myself that I needed their brand when really I had been building my own brand all along. I had everything that I already needed.
Speaker 4:Imposter syndrome is real, I mean.
Speaker 2:It's not so much imposter syndrome, it's just again. It's that sense of wanting to feel prepared like wanting to feel like I had gotten the experience that I wanted before I had moved on and I felt like I needed another good run, even financially, and to build a brand for myself on my own. The job that I had before this was leading a team being behind the scenes. This was more of a people-facing, public-facing role and I was really excited to get to establish my public-facing persona on someone else's dime. But so getting, yeah, having that not worked out was just a blessing in disguise, because I got to still build that persona, but entirely on my terms and in my own way, with no one questioning what I was saying, or is this okay with whoever is in power, you know? So that's more where it came from than a sense of not feeling like I was good enough to to launch on my own.
Speaker 1:I love it. I know we're coming up on time, so I want to be conscious of that, but I am interested in, aside from salary stocks, sign-on bonuses what are some of your favorite things to negotiate or that you coach women on asking for?
Speaker 2:I mean, these days, flexibility is really key, with the companies more and more moving back to the office, which is really disheartening, especially for women in senior positions. Like, do you not want us to thrive and to be able to have these great leadership roles and still exist? So flexibility and remote work or hybrid work schedule is really important. Um, resources so one of the things that I realized throughout my career that was important was to not just go after a big juicy salary, and I want to be clear I never encourage people just to chase money. You want to chase a good support when you get there right. So what resources will you need to be successful in your role?
Speaker 2:And I think way too often, especially post 2020, a lot of companies, including the one that hired me so quickly after 2020, were really wanting to get women of color, people of color, in places of you know like bring them in, let's. You know, yay, we're doing it, ticking that box, but weren't thinking beyond just getting us on board. What kind of support do we then need to be able to survive and thrive? And so I put that onus on the women I coach to really think of what will you need to be successful in this role. Is it a professional development budget so that you can go to the conferences, you can continue upskilling annually? Is it a contractor budget so you have a fund that you know you can lean on to outsource some of your work, so you can work smarter, not harder, so those sorts of things? Is it headcount? You know, are you coming in to be the savior, like we so often are, and to save the broken thing? And let's bring in a black woman, you know might as well throw her in there, guys.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah it's not lost on me that phantom of the opera just closed on broadway after 35 years of a successful run and they had finally brought a black woman to play the lead character, and I'm like that's what happens but anyway yeah, so it's.
Speaker 2:It's understanding what you need to be successful and for me, I really really leaned on my relationships with other women in senior positions to ask them if you could go back, what would you ask for? And that's where I started to think about freelance, budget, headcount, professional development. So it does help to keep your connections definitely warm and to lean on them for advice, especially if they're in your field, so they understand what you would need to really be successful. So I'm glad you asked that, because it's not just about salary.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, and oftentimes it's so much more, like you said, the resources. It's funny you mentioned that I have a friend who was just brought into a big national organization in the nonprofit space, was just brought into a big national organization in the nonprofit space and she basically was promised a certain budget like $200,000. And then that was just for her team to do what she needed to do to be successful, which is why they brought her in. And then she just found out that that is the budget that is remaining for the entire organization for the year.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, budgets can change.
Speaker 2:Bud budgets can change all the time. You can be promised you'll get headcount, and then a recession happens and they're like, oh, we're not gonna offer you headcount. I think you have to be like you're in corporate. I mean, shit happens all the time and there's people who negotiate these, you'll negotiate those types of benefits and you get in. And it's a different story because someone leaves or new CEO comes in. Flexibility and rolling with the punches is so crucial and even for the job that you think is I've got everything I've asked for. Never sleep Like keep your eye one eye open all the time, cause even that may not end up being the happy ending that you wanted it to be Right. So, like I say, it's this constant sort of balance of cautious optimism that, you know, I encourage people in my community to to move with.
Speaker 4:I'm going to start using that cautious optimism. I'm going to start using that one.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love it. I love it. Realistic optimist. I'm always optimistic. I love having a like a three-year-old cause. It's just so fun, you know, they make you just be positive all the time and think of things in a fun way. And I, I don't know, I like that mentality but I don't want to, like I said. I just don't want to set people up.
Speaker 4:I want you to be prepared and you have to think about you know you have to operate in the reality of what is also.
Speaker 1:Exactly yeah, and the reality right now is, if you're spending any time on LinkedIn, it's layoffs. So how are you going to pivot and find your next role when that happens or if that happens?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Oh, go ahead. I was just going to say I like to think that the women that I coach have been ready for this moment for the past couple of years since I've been coaching them, because it's not a matter of if, but when Things are cyclical the stock market goes up, it goes down. I've been through a few crashes myself. Like you start to anticipate those lulls and the waves, and if the if you start to anticipate it, you, you get wiser and these kinds of, these kinds of dips, they don't scare you as much because you've you know that it's coming and you prepare for it.
Speaker 1:No, it's great advice Be prepared, be optimistic, be cautious. I think it's a good trifecta. You are working on a book. Can you talk to us about it? It?
Speaker 2:really did take. I mean, I think in June that was when I started I got I hired a book coach, a book proposal coach, cause when you're writing like a nonfiction book, you have to start from a really extensive outline called the proposal so they can actually see what the book is going to be, whereas if you're writing fiction, maybe it's a few chapters or a manuscript. You write it and then you show it to anyway. So I hired a proposal coach to give me structure, so I could get the thing done, because I know myself I need a deadline. And, yeah, from hiring that coach to finishing the proposal in the fall, to shopping it to literary agents in the winter, to now we're in spring and I'm shopping it Now the agents are shopping it to publishers.
Speaker 2:That's where I'm at on the journey and I hope to have, I hope to have a deal by the end of, like this month. So fingers triple, triple cross. Okay, it feels good, I'm really happy, but I don't again, it's not like an overnight thing, it's. It's been a year just to get to the point where you get a deal, and then I got two years to write it and publish it.
Speaker 1:You know so I'm a turtle, not the hare. Is it all about negotiating or quitting strategically?
Speaker 2:It is a lot about quitting. So you know, my mantra has always been quit your way rich. So that's my working title right now how to quit your way rich. But it's you know, it's, it's every, it's everything, it's. You know how to position yourself so that you get great opportunities. And, yes, there's a chapter on negotiating, but also what to do if you say no, and how to go from working in roles that are sort of thankless and changing your mindset to be open to opportunities that can help you grow. And how do you actually pivot and learn new skills and get into a new career path? I'm hoping it's for the every, you know, it's for every woman who's working and needs a kick in the butt and needs to know that they're capable of more, and I'm really proud of it. I mean, I haven't written the full thing yet, but it's burning in me to get this book out there, so I'm really, really excited. So stay tuned, yes.
Speaker 1:I can't wait to read it. We'll be pre-ordering when it's available.
Speaker 4:You know, just thinking about how society always, you know, tells women, especially women of color, just to, you know, exist but not, you know.
Speaker 1:Don't ask for too much.
Speaker 4:Yes, don't ask for too much.
Speaker 1:Don't expect too much. Be thankful, be grateful.
Speaker 2:Be grateful. You're in the company photo. Add in some melanin and um, if you ask for it's okay to ask for a spot, but don't ask for you know the nice chair. Don't ask to be at the front of the table, because then it's too much and how dare you? And don't you know your place? Yeah, that shit still happens. So we ain't about that, we are not about that.
Speaker 4:We run our household, teaching our children at all absolutely not not.
Speaker 1:This episode is filled with so many gems and so much great advice, but one more time to put you on the spot. We do want to leave our listeners with a final takeaway. What do you want our listeners to know today?
Speaker 2:I think I want you to know that you are in control of a lot more when it comes to your career than they want you to believe that you are. What you can control like building a professional brand that gets people excited about you, putting your work out into the world, building your network so that you have a strong support system to help you find new opportunities. That's what you can control and that's really the key is just focusing on those elements, and it's up to us whether we decide that statistics and the stories that the media will tell us about our you know, the likelihood of us being successful and getting to that next level is going to be true for us or not. And I encourage everyone to think not that you can. You can blow past those expectations.
Speaker 1:I love it. Thank you so much, Mandy, for being with us today.
Speaker 2:We appreciate it, thank you. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:Don't forget. Benjamin Franklin said an investment in knowledge pays the best interest. You just got paid Until next time. Thanks for listening to today's episode. We are so glad to have you as part of our Sugar Daddy community. If you learned something today, please remember to subscribe, rate, review and share this episode with your friends, family and extended network. Don't forget to connect with us on social media at the sugar daddy podcast. You can also email us your questions you want us to answer for our past the sugar segments at the sugar daddy podcast at gmailcom, or leave us a voicemail through our Instagram.
