Understanding the Israeli-Palestinian Colonial Conflict

NPEC Presents: "Understanding the Israeli–Palestinian Colonial Conflict,” with featured speakers: Moshé Machover and Sumaya Awad.

How should we understand what is taking place in Gaza and across occupied Palestine? What history do we need to know to understand and interpret the present? What can we do in the present to shape the future? Moshé Machover and Sumaya Awad will help us answer these questions.

Moshé Machover, born in Tel Aviv in 1936, is a mathematician and socialist activist who has been active in and written extensively on Middle-Eastern politics. A collection of his essays on the Middle East, Israelis and Palestinians – Conflict and Resolution (Haymarket Books).

Sumaya Awad is Adalah Justice Project's director of strategy and communications, and coeditor of Palestine: A Socialist Introduction (Haymarket Books). She has written a series of essays with Daphna Thier in Jacobin, including In Israel, Zionism Prevents Working Class Solidarity .

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Transcript

Luke Pickrell: 0:00

Welcome everyone who's coming on in. We're just going to give it a little bit of time, let folks join us, and then we'll go ahead and get started. Thanks for showing up, uh, on this early Saturday morning or late Saturday evening, wherever you're coming in from. Okay, and thanks again everyone who's coming on in to join us. We'll just give it a few more minutes. We won't start too far past the half hour mark here. Okay, well, we'll go ahead and get started. Welcome everyone to our event, Understanding the Israeli Palestinian Colonial Conflict. This event is hope is hosted by DSA. DSA is the Democratic Socialists of America. And then this event is specifically put on by NPEC, which is the National Political Education Committee, a little subset here and there. DSA, uh, dedicated to, uh, putting out panels about important topics, facilitating conversations about very important issues. Um, and so it's only fitting, of course, that we're here today talking about this particular issue before I, um, introduce our guests. I'm just going to give us a little preview of what to expect. We're here in a zoom webinar so folks can see what's going on. You can make comments to us and the panelists. If you have a question at any point, I would suggest putting it in the Q and a section of the zoom feature that's available. Hello there on your screen. The meeting will be recorded so folks can absolutely access a recording of the meeting. If that's something you'd like what we're going to do today is hear from our two panelists or two guests for about 20 minutes or so each. We'll come back. I might ask a few questions, and then we'll turn it on over to you, and that's when I'll go into the question and answer section of Zoom and read a few questions. We'll get a response, and we'll finish up after about an hour and a half. Total. So, uh, without further ado, I'm going to read the, uh, summary or introductory statement that was used to advertise this event. I think that's a good way to launch us off. I'll, uh, introduce and thank our two guests. And then we'll get going. So the statement we put out said that on September 22nd, 1967, shortly after the end of the Six Days War, the Israeli newspaper Haaretz published an ad signed by a dozen Israeli socialists that now reads hauntingly prescient. The ad stated in part, quote, occupation entails foreign rule, foreign rule entails resistance. Resistance entails repression. Repression entails terror and counter terror. Victims of terror are mostly innocent people. Holding on to the occupied territories will make us into a nation of murderers and murder victims. That's the end of the quote half a century later and 75 years after the Nakba Palestinians continue to face ethnic cleansing torture bombings and housing demolitions under Israeli occupation following the atrocities committed by Hamas on October 7 Israelis relation relentless bombardment of Gaza has once again thrust the long struggle for Palestinian liberation. Back into international headlines. While the mass murder of Palestinians by the Israeli defense force is nothing new, the scale of Israel's latest assault on civilian life and infrastructure has rapidly outpaced most conflicts in the last few decades, with more than 1. 7 million displaced and more than 15, 000 killed. Over 6, 000 of them children. So pundits and opinion pieces have often claimed the divide between Israelis and Palestinians is just too complicated to understand. So we're coming here together today to ask, how should we understand what's taking place in Gaza and across occupied Palestine? What history do we need to know to understand and interpret the present? But when we do in the present to shape the future, and so we're very honored to have Moshe Machover and Sumayya Awad here today to help us answer these questions, and I'll go ahead and introduce them here. So Moshe was born in 1936 in Tel Aviv, Palestine. As a student, he joined the Israeli Communist Party, from which he was expelled in 1962, together with a small group of party dissidents who challenged the ICP's lack of internal democracy and its subservience to the Soviet Union. In the same year, he founded the Socialist Organization in Israel, better known by the name of its journal, Motspen, an independent radical left group. Moshe Makover is also a mathematician. He's taught at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. The University of Bristol and King's College, London. He's an emeritus professor at London University and has lived in London since late 1968. And apart from academic books and papers on mathematical logic and social choice, he's written extensively on socialist theory, mainly applied to Israel, the Middle East, and the Israeli Palestinian colonial conflict. And then Sumayya Awad is a Palestinian activist and writer. dedicated to advocating for the rights of all Palestinians, immigrants, and refugees. Sumaya has written and spoken widely on the Palestinian and refugee solidarity movements. She's been published and interviewed in various outlets, such as The Feminist Wire, Truthout, and These Times. The Middle East Solidarity Magazine, the Huffington Post and Slate, and she's co editor, co editor, excuse me, of Palestine, a socialist introduction from Haymarketbooks. So, with that long introduction out of the way, I wanted to turn it on over to Sumeya.

Sumaya Awad: 7:52

Thanks, Luke. Um, and thanks to DSA for organizing this, this panel. Um, it's hard to know where to begin right now, um, given what's happening in Gaza, and It's been almost exactly two months, a little over two months now, and I think many of us remember in the first 24 hours after it became clear what had happened, what the attacks that Hamas committed, the details began to emerge that we all recognize that the response From Israel was going to be disproportionate and was going to be, um, incredibly bloody and brutal. Um, and that it wasn't going to just be a few days that it was going to last a long time. Um, and sure enough, um, all of this was Uh, confirmed by various Israeli spokespeople. Um, various, um, you know, people in the government, members of the government high up, including the president, including the prime minister, including the defense minister. Um, one statement after statement affirms that they were going to quote, flatten the let's say that this was not going to be a short operation, but that this would last months. Um, and, um, also numerous people making it clear that no one. Quote, quote, No one in Liza was innocent. Um, everyone was guilty. And that is the destruction that we've seen in the last two months. Um, the death toll. I was checking it before this call and the death toll right now, um, including People who are still under the rubble have not been found and identified, um, is nearly 30, 000 people, 30, 000 people in eight weeks. Um, and the death, the children are nearly 10, 000. Um, and we know that that number is higher. We know that that number is much higher because, um, given the level of destruction and the fact that there are troops on the ground, it's very difficult to get a, a, a body count, um, and to register names. In fact, all the records have been destroyed, um, uh, by Israeli forces when they've entered the hospital. They've destroyed all records, um, and the ground invasion, um, we've already seen this in the last 48 hours. Um, but numerous sources are saying from the ground that the next two weeks are going to be the worst. Um, it's difficult to imagine what that means, given the last two months, um, but that the combination of the bombings and the forces on the ground and sort of the brutality of it. And we saw that this. earlier this week with the haunting videos of Palestinian men being rounded up and, um, forced to undress and then taken in trucks, um, some of them killed, um, others, you know, to be determined what, what is being done to them. And this brings back so many. Um, images and, um, stories from the neck, but in 1948, the establishment of Israel and the ethnic cleansing campaigns that took place in 1948, where, um, Palestinians were rounded up in a very similar fashion, um, were forced to dig their own graves and then shot into them, um, where the, the killing and the torture, um, Was indiscriminate. Um, and all tactics were used against Palestinians and the establishment of the state of Israel. I actually want to read a quote from, um, in 1948, a military commander during these ethnic cleansing campaigns, um, named Eagle alone. And later he became a general in the IDF. He was quoted, um, on a diary that was found, an Israeli soldier's diary. Um, and he said the following, this is in 1948. He said, quote, We need to be accurate about timing, place, and those we hit. If we accurse a family, we need to harm them without mercy, women and children included. Otherwise, this is not an effective reaction. During the operation, there is no need to distinguish between guilty And not guilty and quote, and that quote could be read by any of the leaders in Israel today or any of the commanders, and it would fit perfectly on to what we're seeing. And the reality is this approach to. Palestinians is not just in Gaza, but across all of historic Palestine, and it's not just because of the attacks of October 7th, but in fact, similar quotes have been used and said by Israeli leaders, even when there hasn't been any sort of Quote unquote provocation 2018 during the march of return, which was this movement in Gaza of Palestinians marching to the militarized fence between Israel and Gaza and sort of demanding the right of return, which is an internationally recognized right that all Palestinians have that all refugees have. And of course, that Palestinians are not allowed to exercise. Um, and the march of return was actually led by this really incredible writer named Ahmed Abortema, who is in Gaza and has been speaking about, um, uh, Israel's atrocities in the last two months. And because of his, um, uh, activism, because of him sort of reporting from the ground, his home was targeted. Um, By a bomb a few weeks ago, Um, and he survived. However, many of his families did not, including his son, Abdullah, who was killed in the bombings. Um, but people should be familiar with him. And I encourage you all to look him up and read his writings. Past writings and also today, but in 2018 as these marches, these peaceful marches to out to, um, the border, uh, were happening, Israeli Defense Minister Avigdor Lieberman at the time said, I'm quoting, there are no innocent people in Gaza. And this was after a video was leaked of Israeli soldiers cheering on and laughing as live ammunition was used against Palestinian protesters. And similar videos are coming out of Gaza today of Israeli soldiers dancing over the rubble, of Israeli soldiers, um, uh, holding like engagements over the rubble, writing Bicycle stolen from Palestinian Children destroying Palestinian toy stores and libraries. Um, and of course, hoisting the Israeli flag, um, over. Neighborhoods that have been carpet bombed, completely carpet bombed. Um, over 45 percent of all infrastructure and Gaza has been destroyed. And if the bombing continues and the destruction continues at the rate that it's been going, there would not be a single structure and all of the Gaza Strip, um, left undamaged by Christmas. So in the next two weeks, um, and still Israel Is continuing with this destruction in the U. S. Is continuing to support to support it. And I'll touch on that in a bit. But everything we're seeing in Gaza today, um, everything that we're seeing an occupied West Bank, you know, there's, um, Janine refugee camp was bombed and occupied West Bank in the last two months, uh, several times, um, Palestinians are being rounded up. Across occupied West Bank, as well as in in Israel, Palestinian citizens of Israel are being arrested for speaking out for something as simple as a social media post. People are being arrested, um, and not not charged. Of course, I'm not given a fair trial. Um, In fact, in the last two months, the number of Palestinians arrested by Israel has far exceeded the number of Palestinian prisoners released during these exchanges, um, of hostages. Um, and that number keeps climbing and all of this Is not an anomaly. I think often people are saying like this is a result of this right wing government in Israel. This is a result of Netanyahu as though if Netanyahu were not in power and a different president was in power that things would be different. And the reality is the successive Israeli administration have held on to the very same ideology of Zionism, which is inherently violent. It is based on the idea that from the river to the sea. will be clear to Palestinians, um, and of Arabs, and that it is, um, it is a Jewish supremacist ideology. Um, and the founders of Zionism were very clear in that it would be a very violent project, um, that it is, quote, quote, Jabotinsky, one of sort of the fathers of Zionism and of what became Israel, um, Had said that Zionism quote was a, uh, colonizing adventure unquote. And so it's very clear to them what it would take. They were under no illusions of the kind of violence and ethnic cleansing. Um, that was at the heart of Zionism. Um, and there are so many examples that I will get into, but I think that, um, we'll show you later, um, of, of what the Zionist ideology stands for and why it is so important to name it today as we're Building this movement against Israel's ethnic cleansing, against Israeli apartheid, against Israeli occupation, against what's happening in Gaza, to name Zionism for what it is, um, and to make it clear that it does not actually stand for, uh, Judaism, um, and that the two cannot be conflated. And this is also so important because this is how Israel is able to create this image of itself as a victim, um, and garner support through that. And I think that's slowly beginning to fade, um, or crack, I should say, um, especially given the last two months. Um, I think one of the things that makes The current situation we're in sort of stand out is, as Luke said in the opening, the level of destruction, the level of, um, massacre that we're seeing in such a short amount of time, and how blatant it is, um, it is so blatant, they're not even trying to cover up what they're doing, um, when they're bombing hospitals and schools, um, uh, when Israel told Palestinians to flee to the south and then bombed the convoys of Palestinians fleeing. Um, Um, the the blockading and not allowing fuel and water and electricity, um, the U. N. And the W. H. O. Have already warned that, you know, Palestinians are not dying from the bombs. They're very sweet going to start dying of starvation and dehydration and other illnesses that, um Come about as a result of lack of water, a lot of lack of clean water. A lot of the aquifers and as they are being contaminated because Israel is choosing to flood tunnels, um, saying that this is how they're going to get to have mass. And in fact, all that does is contaminate water aquifers that are providing clean water for people. Um, and anyway, the list of these sort of Atrocities is long. Um, the fact that they're targeting openly targeting journalists, um, openly targeting those speaking out on social media. Um, but if that who is an incredible Palestinian writer and poet, um, was just killed in his sister's home and it was a targeted attack, um, because he was speaking out. In fact, his last tweet, his last tweet, um, was accusing the Biden administration and the US of being complicit of being the reason that Palestinians are being killed. Um, and then he was killed. Um, so it was all very blatant and Almost every institution that you can think of that is responsible for reporting on human rights abuses, that is responsible for providing relief, has said that Israel is, um, in the process of committing this genocide, a genocide against Palestinians. And still, the US government is standing by Israel, standing firmly by Israel. Um, not just, uh, politically, um, But financially and militarily, with the billions of dollars that are going to Israel from U. S. taxpayers, um, and the, the U. S. weapons industry that is supplying Israel with many of the weapons, many of the bombs that are falling on Palestinians in Gaza, um, and, and much of the, um, equipment that is also used across the occupied West Bank. Um, and There are many, many reasons for this support for Israel. Um, from the U. S. Um, part of it is just that the long and deep history of U. S. Israel relations, the quote unquote special relationship between the two. Um, the fact that our president Biden, um, who has been in the U. S. Government, um, first as a senator and then as vice president, now as president for nearly 50 years, um, 50 years of This special relationship between the two countries. Um, and of course, the fact that the billions of dollars that Israel gets every year and the additional funds right now, it's an additional 14 billion, um, all help prop up the military industrial complex in the U. S. And the various. weapons manufacturers that benefit greatly from this relationship. In fact, there's a, there's a special clause in the military funding that Israel gets from the US. It's 3. 8 billion a year. And there's a clause in that, um, agreement that stipulates that Israel has to use, um, a certain percentage of that money on buying weapons. That are specifically US produced weapons. So it directly goes back into the arms, the US arms economy. Um, and that explains in part that explains this relationship. Sorry, I got distracted by the chat. I'm not going to look at the chat. Um, that explains. That in part explains the special relationship, um, and explains the level of repression that people in the US are facing for speaking out in support of Palestine. Um, on every single level from people losing their jobs to students, um, being suspended, student groups being suspended and to, um, uh, um, large universities and labor unions facing enormous backlash. Um, and of course, members of Congress. That said, there is this really enormous, powerful and I think quite inspiring movement that has sprung up in the last two months for Palestine and one that has reached, um, areas in the U. S. that Um, I have, um, I have, um before today have not been vocal on this issue. Um, for many reasons, and I don't have time to go into this too much. But the example I'll give right now, which is one of the most recent examples is the unions coming out in support of a ceasefire. And, uh, the UAW, the United Auto Workers, who just came out of a really big and inspiring strike, which they won, um, officially endorsed and came out in support of a ceasefire on, uh, Friday, December 1st. Um, and this was a massive step. Um, and this is a union that Biden had supported during the strike and that the, the Biden administration actually is counting on for their re election. And for them to come out in support of a, uh, Of a ceasefire, I think indicates the shift that we're seeing this massive shift and the fact that the momentum is continuing to build for a ceasefire, continuing to build against the stance that the U. S. Government has chosen to take in support of genocide and complicity in genocide. Um, the question is, what will the turning point be? Um, just yesterday, the U. N. Vetoed a Security Council resolution. Um, Demanding a ceasefire. Um, the un the US was the only country to vote against the UK abstained. Um, and I think it's, it's showing that the US is just digging its heels in, um, choosing to support Israel. No ma quote unquote, no matter what. Um, I think there's a looming question of. What kind of escalation is necessary? What kind of pressure is necessary to, um, to force the government to, to, uh, to pressure Israel into a ceasefire? The reality is that the U. S. government has the power. Many people are like, oh, you know, what power does Biden have? Over Israel, the reality is quite a bit of power actually over Israel, um, as well as in these institutions of, of, um, international power, like the Security Council, um, where a vote could force things to flip, um, I want to, I want to say a lot more, but I'm running out of time. So I'll end by saying, um, When we're fighting for Palestinian freedom, we're fighting against the Israeli genocide unfolding in Gaza against the blockade. We're not just talking about these fragmented sections of historic Palestine, but our understanding and our starting point needs to be full decolonization of Palestine. And that's where the phrase from the river to the sea comes from. It's actually quite a Liberating phrase because it's calling for freedom for everyone between the river and the sea and it's sort of grounded in the idea that Full decolonization of historic Palestine means that, um, everyone living on that land will be treated equally and that our rights are not based on our identity, as is the case right now, where your rights, where you're allowed to go, how you're allowed to live, um, are all based on your identity. And from the river to the sea is a call that no, that should not be how we live, that it should be freedom for all, regardless of identity, of culture, of religion. And that needs to be our starting point. And I'm saying this because in the opening, Luke mentioned 1967 and ending the occupation of the 1967 territories, but in fact, our starting point needs to be 1948 and ending the occupation and the colonization of all Palestinian land. And instead. Seeing a future and building towards the future where that all of that land is not fragmented, but it's instead a a contiguous piece of land where everyone is living freely and with equal rights, and I'm actually going to end by reading the poem. That the fact who I mentioned earlier had written on November 1st and sort of amidst the the the bombing campaigns. It was a time where a lot of Palestinian poets, a lot of journalists, a lot of writers, a lot of those speaking out and because they were being targeted and killed. And he wrote this poem. And five weeks later, he he too would would be killed by Israel. So I'm going to end by reading it. Ifat writes, If I must die, you must live, to tell my story, to sell my things, to buy a piece of cloth and some strings, make it white with a long tail, so that a child, somewhere in Gaza, while looking heaven in the eye, awaiting his dad, who left in a blaze, and bid no one farewell. Not even to his flesh, not even to himself. Sees the kite, my kite y mate, flying up above. And thinks for a moment, an angel is there, bringing back love. If I must die, let it bring hope, let it be a tale. And that's precisely why we're all continuing to fight, and, um, regardless of how long this lasts, that we're committed, that we have this responsibility, and that we're committed to, uh, fighting for a free Palestine. Samaya. Appreciate that. Just a reminder, folks can keep sharing questions in the Q& A section as we go along. We'll come to those. Um, but for now, I'll turn it on over

Moshé Machover: 28:34

to Moshe. Thank you very much. It's a pleasure to be with you in these sad times. I find it difficult to speak. I find it difficult to sleep. I want to, uh, and of course it's a privilege to be speaking alongside Sumayya. I want to take a little bit of a distance. And to explain why so much of what is happening, uh, could have been predicted, and in fact was predicted. Luke quoted, uh, this, uh, statement that was published in the arts on 22nd of September, 1967. This, this was, uh, a response. I, I was one of the 12 signatories, and I think I'm, I'm the only one who, who is still alive. It was 60 the 56 years ago. Um, uh, this was the response of what is going to happen, uh, uh, if Israel keeps the. Uh, territory that he occupied in 67. Uh, and does not withdraw from, but of course, uh, uh, this prediction was accurate. Uh, and of course, as Sumaya pointed out, it didn't start in 1967. This was a reaction in 67 to current events, but the whole thing didn't start. And I want to explain, and I want to take a, a, a, a sort of a long view of, of, uh, matters. Let me quote. from a famous, uh, uh, description of, um, how, uh, settlers view the, uh, indigenous people, uh, in whose country they, they settled. I, I'm changing, I'm going to first read it to change one word in, in the original. The text should be familiar to most of you. Uh, they, uh, complain about the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Palestinian savages whose known rule of warfare Is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes, and conditions. Sound familiar? Well, it should sound familiar because it's a quote from the U. S. Declaration of Independence. And it doesn't speak about Palestinians. I'll read the quote again in its original form. It's a complaint, one of the complaints against the English king who has, uh, has endeavored to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian savages. whose known rule of warfare is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes, and conditions. That's a few striking things in this, in this little, uh, complaint. Um, how come these, uh, Indian savages are at our frontier when they were out there all the time? We are here, the settlers are here, and they are in the frontier. Did it start this way? How come they are, they've been pushed to the frontier? Um, the complaint, uh, about, uh, atrocities. Uh, are no doubt, uh, with some foundation. What it, uh, omits to mention is that the atrocities committed by the settlers were on a far larger incomparably, larger scale. Um, and there are many other things that, that can be, uh, said about this. I am quoting this because I want it, I want point out the. There was a strong analogy between the colonization of the north of America, especially the north of the part that did not rely on plantation, the part that would rely on the self work of the settlers, and the Zionist project of colonization. There are a lot of structural similarities from which we can learn quite a lot. And I think, you know, for Americans it is Important to keep these, these structural, uh, in mind of. Uh, immediate observation is that the conflict is not a symmetric one. It is often represented, misrepresented as a symmetric conflict. There are two, uh, communities, two nations fighting over some territory. This is far from the case, and it was far from the case in the, in the, in, in, in North America. Uh, there is a huge disparity of power. And there are many parallels. Of course, uh, uh, the, uh, colonization of North America was, uh, uh, fueled by the ideology of manifest destiny. Zionism has gone one better than manifest destiny. It has divine promise. It's got, uh, uh, uh, a charter from God itself, himself. rehearsal to colonize the, uh, land of Israel. I think we should take Zionism very seriously. It has been a very successful endeavor, uh, one of the most successful in modern times. We should take it very seriously and read very carefully what, what it is and what it, uh, aimed to be. And I'm talking mainly not about Zionist ideology. The ideology is important. I'm not only talking about the Zionist movement. It is a movement as well. And like every movement, it has many strands, many, many sections, many factions. But I'm talking about the Zionist project. Because what Zionism is really about is a certain project. And it is important to understand what the project was. The project has been, right from the start, was the colonization of Palestine by Jews, uh, in order to, uh, set up a Jewish nation state in the whole of Palestine. That was, uh, from the beginning, the, the, uh, aim of the Zionist project. Uh, it was not at first, in the first, uh, uh, decades. of its existence very widely broadcast in order not to frighten the horses, not to, not to alert, uh, people, but, uh, in internal documents, it is very clear. The first time when it was really, uh, published publicly, uh, uh, in, in a formal, uh, way was perhaps, uh, in the, uh, conference that took place in, in the, uh, Biltmore Hotel in New York in May 1942. And there it is, it is very clear that the aim of the Zionist project is to set up a Jewish state in Palestine from the river to the sea. A Jewish nation state. Now, that had certain implications as to the form of colonization, because colonization has, in modern times, has various forms, and I'm going to apply here the strictly Marxist classification of colonization, because I think it is important. Excuse me. I hope it is permissible to refer to Marx in this forum. Marxist classification recognizes Basically, three forms of colonization. One is Two of which actually occurred in North America. One is plantation colonization based on slavery. This, uh, sounds familiar. It happened in, in part of what became the United States. The second type is colonization, which is aimed at exploiting the labor power of the, or based on the labor power of the indigenous people. Uh, it's political economy. It's based not on slavery. but on exploiting the labor power of the indigenous population. This did not occur in North America. This did not occur in Palestine. And it's important to understand why it did not occur in Palestine. What occurred in Palestine is a form of colonization like in the rest of North America, which is based on the, uh, settlers themselves being the main direct producers. And why? Because if Zionist colonization would have been based on exploiting the labor power of the indigenous people, they would have been a necessary asset, as the indigenous people were in South Africa, for example. In South Africa, there was not basically ethnic cleansing. of the indigenous people from what became the colony of South Africa. Their land was taken away, but they were a useful asset. In terms of their labor power, but the Zionists understood what every child can understand, that the direct producers are always the majority in every society. Ma, the majority of, of the population in every, in every, uh, poli, uh, political economist, economic society are uh, uh, the direct producers. They are, they are the majority. If. If Zionism had aimed to base itself on the labor power of the indigenous people, then it could not become a Jewish nation state. It would become what happened in South Africa, in Algeria, and in the rest of, mostly in Africa, where the settlers coalesced into a quasi class of exploiters. And, uh, the majority of the people, uh, remained indigenous. Uh, it wasn't, it, it, it was not, uh, possible to create a Jewish nation state while, uh, basing the political economy of the settlement on the labor power of the indigenous people. So what is to become of them? Well, the obvious, uh, answer is, if they cannot be overwhelmed by huge immigration of Jews, which was not possible and was not, was never, never, uh, a remote possibility, then the only answer is, ethnic cleansing. So from the beginning, the Verizionist project, uh, aimed and assumed, uh, at, uh, ethnically cleansing the, uh, indigenous Palestinian, uh, Arab population. Now notice that in all other count uh, places where this type of colonization, based on the self work of the settlers took place, the, uh, settlers have become the overwhelming majority. The indigenous people have been ethnically cleansed or reduced to a small minority. Uh, and, uh, uh, you know, this is, this is, uh, uh, what has stabilized. This is the case in North America. This is the case in Australia. Uh, and elsewhere in New Zealand, uh, in, uh, Tasmania. The indigenous population was, was completely annihilated, exterminated to almost to the last person. In this view, if you look at it in this view, then the Zionist project is still work in progress. And we see its progress right now before our eyes. The wish and the plan of the Zionist project to ethnically cleanse The Palestinian, uh, population of the areas which it is controlled, it controls, which is the, the, uh, area between the river, uh, to the sea, plus a little bit of Syria, which people, uh, often forget, uh, this, this is designed to be ethnically cleansed. This is why ethnic cleansing has been predicted, could be predicted, has been predicted, I predicted. Uh, personally, I'm not the only one, that ethnic cleansing is going to take place at some point. I did not, of course, I couldn't predict it would start in Gaza. Uh, this, this was fortuitous. And note, again, another, uh, analogy, similarity between the Zionist project and what took place, uh, centuries ago in North America. Every expansion of the Colonial occupation, every stage of ethnic cleansing. Or almost every, every one of these took place in response to some, uh, apparent provocation. If you look at the way that the indigenous, uh, Americans were, uh, ethnically cleansed, it was very often in response to some atrocity that they, uh, had committed. Or to some other, uh, uh, Opportunity that presented itself in Zionist, uh, uh, terminology, there is a term that refers to, uh, this idea as the opportune moment, the opportune moment to, uh, perpetrate another stage of expansionism, another stage of ethnic cleansing. In Hebrew it is sha'at ha kosher. The, the opportune moment. The opportune moment, uh, is sometimes unpredictable. Uh, it presents itself, it may be a regional war. Uh, some people, uh, expected in, uh, the year 2000 and, uh, and two, uh, in, in view of the forthcoming. Invasion of, uh, Iraq, which w was predicted to, to happen in the following year. Uh, there was some talk of using that opportune moment to perpetrate ethnic lensing, uh, on a large scale in the, in the West Bank. This was known as the Sharon Plan. Uh, it didn't come to, uh, uh, in, in, get it, get, uh, uh, uh, the actually done because the, the war. As it were, ended too quickly, there was not, not, not enough opportunity to, uh, uh, uh, perpetrate ethnic cleansing. So, uh, I would, I think I've exhausted my, my time. Uh, I think what is, what is happening, uh, uh, uh, right now is not as it is put, uh, uh, as it is named by the media war of, uh, Israel and Hamas. It is a war of Israel against the Palestinian people and its real aim is not the eradication of Hamas. This is a convenient, uh, pretext for prolonging the war as long as necessary because eradication of Hamas is an open ended, uh, target. The real aim of the war is ethnic cleansing. And this is happening right in front of our eyes. It is, uh, the method is genocide. The aim is ethnic cleansing. And this is not going to, uh, uh, stop there if Israel is allowed to do it. Of course, there are international, uh, uh, forces, but primarily the United States that could stop it if it like, but it didn't. I mean, I want to point out one very important specific, uh, uh, uh, aspect of Zionist colonization. Unlike the colonization of America or Australia, where the colonizers were sent by a metropolis, a mother country, to colonize that and was protected by the mother country, the Zionist colonizers did not have a mother country. They needed a surrogate mother. The surrogate mother was the empire that dominated that part of the world. Originally, it was Britain. During a certain period it was France, but then from the 1960s it firmly became the United States. The United States is the surrogate, surrogate metropolis, surrogate mother country of Zionist, uh, uh, uh, colonization. And it, the, the, the deal is always. that the Zionist colonization project would obtain the protection of this surrogate mother in exchange for services rendered. And the services rendered by Zionist colonization to the United States Uh, apart from, uh, what Sumaya has referred to as being an attack dog of American power in the region. And in this respect, the United States is supporting Israeli savage, uh, uh, uh, warfare in order to, to show everyone and every country, every state in, in the region that this is, uh, uh, uh, uh, this is, uh, uh, A mad dog that can wreak havoc, and if you dare to, uh, oppose us, we can let loose this, this protégé of ours, uh, uh, and, and, and you, you will see, you will see the, the, the effects. Of course, uh, there is a ray of hope in the form of mass mobilization in, in many countries. Uh, who was, who are, who are appalled by, uh, what is going on. And, uh, call for, uh, stopping, uh, an immediate stop to this ethnic cleansing. Thank you.

Luke Pickrell: 49:01

Thank you, Moshe. I want to encourage folks who, uh, might have joined us a little later or might just appreciate an extra word of encouragement to, uh, share your questions in the Q& A, uh, section here on Zoom. I'll go ahead and, um, pose just one or two questions, uh, to both Moshe and Sumeyya and, you know, if, if you all would like to take them on, that's fine, either one of you, and then I'll go ahead and, and turn it on over to, uh, some of the questions that we've been getting from, from folks in the audience. So I was curious, um, and perhaps, uh, Sumayya, this one is to you a little bit more, but of course, both of you can, can answer this. Um, what, what other struggles you kind of see as, as tied to, uh, Palestinian liberation, um, and how that shapes, uh, the way that, that we organize and how it kind of shapes our, Uh, response. Um, and then Moshe, a little bit more directed towards you. And of course, Sumeya, you can answer as well. But, you know, Moshe, you're coming to us, um, from another country. What kind of responses you've seen, uh, from your country? Um, what you think folks in the United States, uh, should know, uh, about, uh, what's currently going on in Britain? Uh, I know you also explained. Some of the past there.

Sumaya Awad: 50:39

Thanks, Luke. Um, thanks, Marcia for all of that. Um, I mean, in some ways, it's like what struggle. It's not connected to the Palestinian struggle. Um, it's like every there's so many connections and lines to be drawn. Um, Because the Palestinian struggle sort of brings out all the different elements of, um, capitalism and militarism, um, that are impacting and that are sort of the foreground for so many of the other, um, forms of oppression or struggles against oppression that we see around the world. I think in the US in particular, some of the ones that have some of the The struggles that have kind of allied themselves and align themselves as a Palestinian struggle the most because of the very clear and obvious connections are the struggle for black liberation, the indigenous struggle in the US, and more recently the climate Climate struggle, climate justice. I think for, um, movement for black lives and black lives matter. There are so many connections, many of them symbolic and, um, sort of drawing on the role of imperialism in the oppression that black people, um, faced historically and continue to face today. And then more direct material links between, um, the You know, police brutality and racism, etc. in the US and what is happening in Palestine. And I think that was brought to the foreground in the last decade, when it became clear and apparent and sort of, all this data was produced to show the links between Police departments in the U. S. Um, and some of the most violent police departments in the U. S. and the big cities like Los Angeles and New York and Chicago. Um, and their ties to the Israeli army. Um, the fact that many of these, um, police. Um, uh, I was gonna say battalions. I mean, that that works, but that's not what we called them in the U. S. They may as well be battalions are actually often trained in Israel by the Israeli army in tactics and strategies that the that they then take back and use, um, against people in the U. S. And more often than not, that is black and brown people in the U. S. Um, and there is a really massive campaign to sort of end this exchange and this police exchange between the two. Um, that was quite successful. Um, and, um, another connection that is also tied to this tied to policing, um, is the, and I mentioned this a little bit earlier, but it's sort of the, the, um, The militarism and the arms industry in the U. S. and its connection to Israel, both the financial connection, the fact that Israel buys a lot of weapons, a lot of arms from the U. S., um, U. S. produced, um, and that a lot of its, um, airplanes and, um, bombs are created by Boeing, for example, which is based here in the U. S. and some of its largest factories, um, are in places like New Jersey and St. Louis. Um, And Atlanta, um, and they've been targeted actually in the last two months by protesters, um, and internally by workers trying to strategize about how to sort of organize against manufacturing and producing these, these weapons. Um, and then also, um, uh, because Israel produces the most arms per capita in the world. And a lot of the, um, it's, it's a leading, it's leading in military technology and a lot of the technology that it produces it tests first on Palestinians, including on Palestinians and as a, um, and Palestinians and occupied West Bank, a lot of it's like facial recognition, uh, technology that, that is used by, by the Israeli military. Um, to name to name one, but there are many other examples. NSO group, which is another surveillance technology that's actually been blacklisted by the U. S. Government. Um, which should tell you something. Um, uh, Israel produces these test them on Palestinians and then exports them to various regimes around the world who then use them themselves against dissidents domestically. Um, and we know this is the case with like the Emirates using it against dissidents. Um, we know they've been used in Mexico. Um, uh, the. India, um, as well as other places. Um, and so it's like all of this military technology that is being produced. It is isn't just affecting Palestinians. It's affecting anyone organizing anywhere in the world. It was used in by by Bolsonaro in Brazil. Um, so it's It's not this, um, siloed struggle. Um, it's very much connected to other struggles against, uh, various right wing governments globally. Um, and then of course, um, I don't want to take up too much time, but I'll just briefly mention the climate struggle. And I think one of, one thing that has happened in the last few years is the connection between climate justice, Um, in the U. S. And elsewhere, um, to what Israel is doing to imperialism to war. Um, and this is especially important in the case of Palestine, because Israel there's a lot of greenwashing. It tries to sort of claim and create this image of itself as a environmentally friendly country, which is so laughable if it weren't so, you know, violent and, and Harrowing. Um, but there, you know, there's no such thing as an environmentally friendly apartheid state. You can't, you can't have those two things together. And in fact, that Israel is, you know, actively destroying the land, actively destroying the ecology of Palestine and of the region. And that's been, I think, one, one, really powerful and sort of inspiring. Development in the last few years is connecting climate justice to Palestine. And in the US, we've seen that on numerous occasions. I think most recently with Sierra Club workers, Sierra Club is one of, is the largest, I think the largest environmental organization in the US. And while its leadership is not great, um, the workers in Sierra Club have been organizing to stop. You know, these environmental trips to to Israel, um, that that are that take part in greenwashing and sort of bringing out the fact that you can't say you are pro climate justice, that you care about the environment and support, um, an uplift and apartheid regime and occupation.

Luke Pickrell: 57:30

Thank you, Moshe. I don't know if you had thoughts about this.

Moshé Machover: 57:35

There were two questions I'd like to answer very briefly. The second, uh, As you may know, Britain is one of the countries whose establishment is a poodle of American hegemony. It is not, uh, a, a coincidence that in the recent vote in the Security Council, Britain was the only one that did not vote, vote for the resolution apart from the United States that voted the voted uh, Britain abstain where, whereas France, for example, uh, voted for the resolution. So there's a distinction here. This is on the surface, and as far as the establishment is concerned. If you just follow the expressions of the elite, and follow the mainstream media, then you would think that the majority of British public opinion is supporting Israel. But the truth is very different. I mean, there has been, a few days ago, an article Article in The Guardian, uh, by, uh, AMIA, uh, describing the overwhelming support for Palestinian rights among, uh, the younger, uh, part of the British population. In particular working class, uh, uh, youth. Uh, he concentrated on. Township, uh, north of London, which is, uh, uh, working class, uh, concentration. Uh, and there has been a wonderful activity, uh, and militancy, uh, of, of these young people. Uh, secondary school students in support of Palestinian rights and in opposition to the position of the British establishment and mainstream media. As for the other question, uh, it is a very heavy subject. My answer to this is that the struggle to which, uh, the struggle for, uh, equal rights. In, uh, Palestine, as, as the saying goes between the river and the, and the, uh, sea, the, the, the other struggle to, to which it is intimately connected with the struggle for socialism. It is a, a complicated subject, but I, I, I want to point out that in my view. It will be impossible to achieve liberation in Palestine as a separate country apart from developments in the whole region, and it could not be done within the confines of the capitalist order. I've explained my position in detail in, in an article, uh, on the Decolonization of Partisan. This is the title, decolonization of Palestine, which is archived in the, uh, archive of the weekly worker, uh, uh, a weekly journal, left wing journal in, in Britain. The, the, the, to, to, to give you just a summary. Is the idea that you have to, you have to understand is that the liberation of Palestine involves overthrow of the Zionist regime. Now, overthrowing the Zionist regime is not an easy target. Who can do it? If you compare the situation Uh, to what, uh, existed in South Africa under apartheid, uh, the, the difference becomes very clear. In South Africa, uh, there was an internal force, namely the, the majority population, the majority of the producers, the majority of the working class, which had leverage, uh, to overthrow, uh, uh, sufficient to overthrow the, the apartheid regime. In the case of, of Israel Palestine, it is not an a a, an easy question. I I, it, it doesn't seem that there is, there exists an external fo force external to, to Israeli society that is capable of overthrowing Zionist regime who can do it. I mean, just think about it. In my opinion, it'll involve the. agreement, the participation, uh, of a large part of the Israeli working class itself. Now, under the present conditions, under the present capitalist conditions, this is, this is not a likely thing to happen. It can happen given socialist transformations of the entire Middle East region. I cannot enlarge on this because this is not a simple subject, but just think that the decolonization of Palestine involves overthrow of the Zionist regime. Thank you. And then think what force is both capable and interested in achieving this. This is a starting point for some necessary thinking. I cannot go on about it. If you want development of this idea, then it requires a session in its own right. But I direct you. to my article on the decolonization of Palestine archived in the Weekly Worker, uh, archive.

Sumaya Awad: 1:04:02

Can I, sorry, can I add something to that? Thanks so much for that, Moshe. I don't want to, um, do a back and forth about the role of the Israeli working class, um, but I do think one thing that That I want to highlight that you said, which is that Palestine does not, Palestine is not an island. Um, I think this is something many of us have been saying for a long time, especially in the last two months, that we can't silo Palestine off of the rest of the region. Um, and I think this was especially made clear during the Arab uprisings, um, in 2011 onwards. Um, because it became clear that actually Palestine was rallying cry for much of the Arab. Much of the Middle Eastern working class continues to be today. I mean, a few weeks ago, and I believe this is continuing Syrians in Idlib were being who are being bombed by Assad forces and bombed by Russian forces as well came out into the street. They canceled Friday prayers because of the bombings because it was unsafe, but they still went out into the streets to protest Israel's bombing of Gaza. That brought them out. Um, and this is, of course, In Syria, like the Syrians protesting in Idlib, this is also protesting against the way Palestinians in Syria have been treated. Um, Yarmouk refugee camp, which was completely desecrated and flattened by Assad forces. Um, and this is just one example in Syria, but Of course, in Lebanon, in Jordan, in Egypt, in Iraq, and all of this has to be calculated. And we have to think about it as we think about what it looks like for Palestinians, um, to be free and the connection between all these different people. I mean, the reality is there are millions of Palestinian refugees across the Middle East. And one of the things that we demand as Palestinians is we're struggling for freedom. Um, and one of the demands of the boycott divestment sanctions movement is the right of return. Um, and that means the right of return of all Palestinians to their occupied homes and lands. And again, this is a right that is enshrined by international law. Um, and so I wanted to say that, and I think that, you know, the role of the Israeli working class, I, I agree with you insofar as I don't think as it stands, um, the Israeli working class is an ally in any way. And that's because of the structure and the design of the Israeli state and the fact that Israeli workers actually are central to the, the Reproduction of Zionism and of the settler colonial project of Israel today. Um, and we're seeing this right now, like in Gaza, in the West Bank, et cetera. Um, the, the, the overall arching question that you raised, I think, is a question is like what, what will it take for them to be transformed to To be allies against, um, the, the occupation. And, you know, I'm, I'm very skeptical, um, of, of that happening. Um, but I definitely think that the, the role of the Arab working class is central to this. Um, and I'll, I'll just stop there. Thank you both so much. So what I'm going to do now, uh, we have about nine questions in the Q and a box. I think what I'll do is, um, read through about four of them. Um, I'll pause, see if you both would like me to continue reading through the rest. Um, give you all a chance to respond. And I think maybe, you know, both of you latching on to either the ones that are directed to you, um, or latching on to the parts that resonate. The most, uh, to you. I'm sure folks will understand if you can't answer every little bit of the question, but more. So we're kind of responding to, you know, some of the, the, the sentiments or some of the themes here. So the first question we have, um, directed at Moshe in, in previous talks and essays, you've alluded to the small size. Relative importance of the Israeli anti-war movement and or the, the peace camp. Is there any reason to think that there's greater anti-war sentiment or pro peace sentiment among the youngest politically active Israelis, particularly Ashkenazis? If not, why not? That's one. We have another question. Uh, what kind of tangible action can Palestinian liberation forces take? That would not be dismissed as atrocities and also move Palestine closer to decolonization. We have another question here asking us to comment on the role of the Democratic Party on this issue. And Moshe, for you, could be the Democrats, any other political party. Should socialists support representatives who vote for Israeli funding, even if they call themselves socialists? And then I'll read. This next one here, does the U. S. once again vetoing a ceasefire, uh, while claiming that not doing so would embolden Hamas, confirm their imperialist alliance, and then in terms of the, uh, histories of colonization, does the distinction between Israel and South Africa make the use of apartheid and apartheid? Uh, misleading, what's important about it instead, uh, saying, excuse me, what is important about instead saying, uh, Israeli ethnic cleansing. So I can continue reading through. I don't know if you all would like to pause and, and respond to any of those. I'll go ahead and go ahead. Moshe, would you like to begin? And then I can respond and then we can take more. Okay. I would

Moshé Machover: 1:10:14

like to address, you know, maybe a couple of these questions at the moment. Anti war, uh, feeling in Israel among young people is, is, uh, very, very, uh, tiny. I mean, there are still some brave people who, uh, demonstrate and who, uh, speak against the war. But, uh, at the moment, as it happens, In most wars, the Israeli public opinion is, uh, in, uh, hysteria, uh, pro war hysteria. That doesn't mean that it is united. I mean, contrary to what happens Very often, in times of war, when the nation is united, Israeli public opinion is deeply divided, but it's deeply divided not in its attitude to the war, but in its, uh, uh, uh, feeling as to who is responsible for this, uh, uh, trauma that, uh, afflicted Israel on the 7th of October. And it is clear that, uh, uh, the, there was a big failure. Of the top of the army and of, uh, netan personally, it's, it's documented, it's, uh, uh, widely known that, uh, that, uh, netan actually fostered, uh, Hamas in, in, in Gaza in order to divide the Palestinian leadership. And in order to prevent any talk of, uh, the, uh, two state illusion. I point you to state illusion because it is not a solution and it's never been. It's not, it's not on, but he is very, he was always very keen to not only prevent any kind of Palestinian state, but even in any talk of the Palestinians, a Palestinian state or stateless on, on, on the part of the American administration. And for this reason, he actually yeah. Uh, help to foster Hamas in, in, in Gaza. This is known to the Israeli public and, and, uh, uh, there are calls in the middle of this war while he is leading the, the, the war government to, uh, uh, uh, force his resignation. So, uh, it is not an anti war feeling, it is anti government feeling that he's not dividing Israeli society. Um, about action that, that, that will not, cannot be called atrocities. So I, I think Sumaya has, has actually referred to the, uh, Freedom March in Gaza in, in 2018, which was, uh, uh, non violent and was met with brutal violence on, on the part of the Israeli, uh, military. Uh, as for, you know, voting, how, how you should vote in the United States, it's not for, not for me to say, I don't feel that I know enough about, uh, uh, party politics in the United States, uh, to offer any, any responsible advice. Uh, you work it out, uh, as far as the harm in. term apartheid as a part, as applied to Israel, well look, it's, it's, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a complicated issue. According to the The official, formal definition of apartheid, it certainly applies to the case of Israel. Not only within the territories occupied in 1967, but in the whole of the territory ruled by Israel, including, of course, the part of Syria that has been annexed. So, the term is correctly applied in terms of its juridical applicability. It is correct. However, apartheid, like racism, of which apartheid is just a form, has many forms. I mean, in the United States, for example, you have two forms of racism. Racism against black people and racism against indigenous people. Americans. It is a very different form of racism. One is, is class based. The Black people are, uh, uh, have been enslaved and they are, and they are, they are, the racism against, against Blacks is, is mainly class based. The racism against Indigenous Americans is It's colonialism based. It's a different form of racism. Black people in the American Constitution are worth three fifths of a person. Indians in the American Constitution are worth nothing. So the racism comes in different, you know, 57 varieties. The, uh, the, the The form of apartheid, uh, uh, uh, operated by Zionism is, is different from what existed in South Africa. And to this extent, it is sometimes misleading because when people hear apartheid, they immediately think of South Africa. And the situation couldn't be more different in certain respects. As I try to explain, the political economy was completely different. Um, so, uh, yes, I mean, uh, you can use apartheid, the use of apartheid has certain advantages in propaganda terms. But it can also be misleading because it can drive people to imagine that, uh, uh, Israeli Zionist colonialism is of the same kind as South African. And this is. A mistake, at least as far as the political economy is concerned, which is for a Marxist, the key to understanding the situation.

Luke Pickrell: 1:16:45

Thank you, Moshe. Thanks, Moshe.

Sumaya Awad: 1:16:48

Yeah, I mean, just on that question of these, of the word apartheid, I think, um, It is important to understand the way that the political economy is different from South Africa, but as Moshe also said, that it, the term does apply to the segregation and like the structure of racism that exists. And I think that's important because that is the way in which Um, uh, the charge of apartheid is being leveled against Israel right now in the International Criminal Court. Um, and I think in the question, the way that the question was phrased, um, by, I don't remember the person's name, or maybe there was no name, but was why not use the term ethnic cleansing? Um, I think We should definitely use the term ethnic cleansing, and I don't think it's an either or. But in international law, ethnic cleansing is not a charge that can be applied in the way that apartheid is, and that is part of the reason why the charge was the charge of apartheid. Um, and happy to discuss that more, maybe provide more resources if people want to read about that a little bit more. Um, and then to the question of, of, um, uh, The Israeli left. I don't want to talk about it too much, but I also saw that a follow up question was put in, in, in, um, the Q and A about what is the difference between working class in the U. S. and the working class in Israel if both, um, uh, were settler colonies and both, um, uh, uh, committed genocide. And I want to drop just as like a beginning to, to answer this, um, which I won't do now, but I want to drop an article that Dofna and myself, um, co wrote about the nature of the Israeli working class and why part of it answers this question of how is it different from the U. S. working class? Why are we able to build U. S. working class solidarity, um, uh, across race, across culture, across ethnicities, et cetera. Um, and why is that? Not the case in Israel. So I'm gonna drop the article here. Um, and then as we're running out of time, um, there's a question of the Democrats, you know, I think, like, that's a whole event on its own, where we can discuss us us political scene. What I will say about about the Democratic Party in the last two months, um, is that the fact that there is a Palestinian in Congress and the fact that Cori Bush, um, like this open socialist who openly supported BDS as a candidate when she was running for Congress, um, um, that made a big difference in In that it allowed for there to be a vehicle in Congress for a ceasefire to begin with. When the call from Radze came out that the, that the demand was for a ceasefire and, um, Cori was able to, um, uh, draft and release the ceasefire resolution and that that became a tool, a vehicle for people in government. And for us on the streets to pressure people in government to sign on to that to support that that was incredibly, incredibly important. Um, and it allowed for, I think, a very, um, tactical, strategic inside outside strategy that actually seems to be working, not working in so far as stopping this happening, but working in so far as changing the narrative in the US and making it clear that there is a division. There is a, um, A, uh, disagreement between where the administration stands where the U. S administration stands that the State Department, the Biden administration and where Congress is increasingly leaning, or at least a good section of a chunk of it is going. In fact, while we were on this call, news broke that the State Department just decided a an emergency approval of 13, 000 ammunition tank ammunitions to Israel, um, meaning that this was not something that Congress, they bypassed Congress. Usually Congress has to sign off has to vote on this for it to pass. I mean, that's the point of having a Congress, especially in cases like this. And instead, the State Department invoked an emergency cause to have this happen without Congress's approval. Um, and I think that's another indication of this. This split that's happening between the State Department and the Biden administration and Congress. Um, and this same ceasefire resolution and the way that the narrative is shifting right now is also the reason why for the first time ever. There are conversations happening over U. S. Funding to Israel. There are conversations in Congress happening that are a direct result of things like Cori Bush's ceasefire resolution. And then, of course, the massive show of support in the U. S. That polls have have confirmed fact. Majority of Americans supported ceasefire fact that there are these protests every single day in every single industry from Washington, Campuses to unions to people in their workplaces, people in their schools. People are out in the street every single day in cities across the country, and that hasn't stopped. The momentum has not stopped. The momentum has not slowed down. It's continuing to build, in fact. And I think that is part of the reason why there are now discussions. In Congress about whether or not the U. S. Should continue to fund Israel. Um, and I think that's also part of the reason why this emergency measure was just invoked by the State Department because they didn't want to go through Congress because they knew that that would become a whole debate that would become a whole spectacle in and of itself. And so they bypassed them to do this. Um, and I think that's that's really important. I think that a really important thing. Um, sort of harrowing, horrifying reality of this that we also need to contend with is that what it took for this question to be even raised is tens of thousands of Palestinians in Gaza being massacred, right? It's like half of the infrastructure of the Gaza Strip being completely destroyed, that that's what it took for this question to even be raised. Um, I think that's, that's the harrowing reality of the moment that we're in and knowing that it isn't even over, um, that. The genocide is unfolding. It hasn't ended. The bombing hasn't stopped. The ground invasion hasn't stopped. And Israel has shown no signs of slowing down in the U. S. The Biden administration, at least, has not shown any signs of, um, uh, forcing Israel to stop beyond these really meaningless, empty, hollow statements of, you know, uh, be careful of civilian life. Also, here's another 13, 000 tank. Ammunitions. Also, he's another 14 billion in weapons. Also, here's our newest bombs that we've just produced. You know, here you go. Israel, be careful of civilians. And so it's just like this hollow, empty statements from the Biden administration from the State Department. Um, that is, um, increasingly at odds and increasingly, um, sort of showing like a stark juxtaposition between them and where the majority of Americans stand and increasingly where different members of Congress are going. Um So that's that's kind of like my beginning answering the question about Democrats. Um, I think it's, it's, we're at a point now where It's no longer you know, it's no longer just like Cori Bush in Congress saying we should stop funding Israel. Um, that said, we're still nowhere near where we need to be. Um, and I'm not trying to sort of create an illusion of where Congress is at, or even people who support ceasefire are not yet where we need them to be on so many other things. Um, but I think this moment is, um Uh, kind of taking the mask off of Israel and, um, forcing, forcing people to to contend with what it really is. Um, and there's a lot of work still to be done to push people beyond just ceasefire. Um, you know, ceasefire is such a minimum demand. I mean, it's the word ceasefire. This is such a, this is such a, it's become such a powerful politicized. Word, um, but the reality is it's such a bare minimum when you think about what is happening On the ground in Palestine and I want to say more but we're out of time. So I'm going to stop there Samaya and

Luke Pickrell: 1:25:16

Moshe, you know, this is one of those conversations that could continue for Long time, and I know we have, um, limited time. So what I will do is, um, I'll reach out to, uh, Samaya and, and Moshe, um, through email, ask them, you know, about further resources, ways that folks can continue engaging in this, um, and email that, share it to everyone. But Moshe, please go ahead.

Moshé Machover: 1:25:46

If you allow me, Sumaya has read the poem, which is very effective. I would like to read you a poem which sums up the present situation. It was written a long time ago by a, uh, A late friend of mine, the poet Erich Fried, was an anti Zionist socialist Jewish poet. And it seems as though it was written specifically in order to describe what is going on. As usual with this poem, this is a short and very aphoristic poem, and it is a sort of philosophical observation. on what is going on. It is called clean sweep and here it comes. The causes now fight their effects so that one can no longer hold them responsible for the effects. For even to make them responsible is part of the effects. And effects are forbidden and punished by the causes themselves. They do not wish any longer to know about such effects. Anyone who sees how diligently they pursue the effects and still says that they are closely connected with them, now have to blame only himself. Think about it.

Luke Pickrell: 1:27:22

Thank you, Moshe. So, um, as I said, folks who registered for this event, um, will get an email from me. Thank you all for attending. And I'll also include, uh, resources that Tzumea, Moshe, uh, have shared with me, ways, um, that you can continue engaging in their work. Um, I will say you can check out, uh, both of them online. I'm sure I encourage folks to check out the DSA online and, uh, NPEC in general, but I'd also like to do, um, share in the chat here is in a link to an event that's happening tomorrow, uh, specifically geared towards, um, talking about these issues, uh, with folks who are younger, uh, children, families, Um, I think that will be, uh, a very interesting and, and dynamic event, and I did want to put it in the chat here just because it is, uh, tomorrow. So, um, the last thing I will say, yes, this is, um, recorded, and after I talk with, uh, the panelists to check in about that, uh, you can expect it up on, uh, YouTube, and I will also, uh, share that through email with everyone who registered, uh, for this event. If you have any concerns about that, uh, you can always get a hold of me. So with that, I, uh, want to, uh, take all of our gratitude and appreciation for, uh, Sumeya and, and Moshe. Pass it on forward. Thank you so much for joining us. Uh, we'll continue to hear from you, learn from you, um, and, and keep on going. So take care everyone and, uh, and be well. Thanks, Luke and Molly.

Sumaya Awad: 1:29:14

Thanks, Moshe. Nice to see you.