Death Doula, Haley Diltz

Meet Haley Diltz, an exceptional woman who had a childhood dream of being Indiana Jones but instead grew up to become a Neurotrauma ICU nurse. She knew early on she had an affinity for the dying and helping families navigate through some of life’s most tragic experiences. 

It took one very tragic experience in the ICU for Haley to take pause and re-evaluate how she could better serve the dying and is now dedicating her career to end-of-life and palliative care. 

Haley founded Third Eye Nurse, LLC, offering burnout education, integrative health coaching, and doula services for end-of-life care. She became a death doula, and her expertise as a certified death educator has allowed her to promote accessible and inclusive death care, looking at death, not solely as a physical event, but also as a mental, emotional, and spiritual transition. 

Through the education of nurses and patients, Haley destigmatizes death and dying by valuing the sacredness and creativity that can exist when we find the courage to participate in and acknowledge death, not only as a natural process, but a natural part of life. And she is making a difference, one death at a time. 

In the five-minute snippet: She’s a witchy woman. For Haley's bio, visit my website (link below).
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Transcript

[00:00] Michelle: Meet Haley Diltz, an exceptional woman who had a childhood dream of being Indiana Jones, but instead grew up to become a neurotrauma ICU nurse. She knew early on she had an affinity for the dying and helping families navigate through some of life's most tragic experiences. It took one very tragic experience in the ICU for Haley to take pause and reevaluate how she could better serve the dying and is now dedicating her career to end-of-life and palliative care. Haley founded Third Eye Nurse, LLC, where she offers burnout education, integrative health coaching, and doula services for end-of-life care. She became a death doula, and her expertise as a certified death educator has allowed her to promote accessible and inclusive death care, looking at death not solely as a physical event, but also as a mental, emotional, and spiritual transition through the education of nurses and patients. Haley destigmatizes death and dying by valuing the sacredness and creativity that can exist when we find the courage to participate in and acknowledge death not only as a natural process but a natural part of life. And she is making a difference one death at a time. In the five-minute snippet, the eagles wrote a song about her. Here is Haley Diltz. Well, good morning, Haley,  welcome to the podcast.

[01:54] Haley: Yes, thank you for having me.

[01:58] Michelle: Well, it's my pleasure. I saw your feed come across my Instagram, and I was like, Third Eye Nurse? Oh, my goodness. Who is this? She sounds so interesting. And so I reached out to you, and you said, yes, you would come on to tell us all about what you do as an end-of-life doula or a death doula. And then you have some, a lot of other things going on, so we'll talk about those, too. But why don't you just start by telling our audience just a little bit about why you got into nursing and how that all started.

[02:41] Haley: Yes. Well, again, thank you so much for having me, Michelle. I genuinely appreciate it. And I'm excited to share a little bit about me. Yes, I'm Haley. I am a former neurotrauma critical care nurse turned life coach for nurses, death educator, and end-of-life doula. I have a master's degree in complementary integrative health where I specialized in spirituality during chronic illness, death, and dying. I also am a certified yoga instructor and UCL Reiki master. I created Third Eye Nurse LLC, which is a small business platform, that offers burnout education, integrative health, and life coaching for nurses, as well as full spectrum doula ship services for those planning or experiencing end of life. We'll get into that in a little bit. But I have to be honest, I just got really lucky with getting into nursing. Growing up as a kid, I wanted to be Indiana Jones. I wanted to dig in the dirt and travel the world. And my mom was kind of like, you know, maybe let's go a different direction. And I chose nursing. I have had a lot of unofficial caregivers in my family, and I really just kind of fell into the role and got lucky, and I loved it. I got into a neuro ICU straight out of the gates as a new nurse and fell in love with the brain and consciousness. And throughout my own burnout journey, I began my own spiritual practices, which have kind of led me into this direction. And then, of course, you know, after the pandemic, things have really shifted and changed, and that was really the catalyst for me to humbly step away from the bedside and lean into whole-centered or whole person-centered death care.

[04:27] Michelle: Wow, that is quite a story. I love hearing the stories of how nurses get into it and how they move from one special specialty to the next. And sometimes it takes, you know, a moment like that. And honestly, that was my moment. Moving into retirement was two years into the pandemic. I was like, I can't do this anymore. Yeah, you just learn, I guess, what you can tolerate and what you can't or what you're willing to tolerate and can't. Right. Wow, that's great. So what was it in particular? Was there anything in particular that interested you in end-of-life or palliative care?

[05:18] Haley: Yes. I kind of knew early on in my profession that I started to gravitate towards palliative and end-of-life care. It didn't take me long to realize that I had in affinity for the dying, and I found myself, by trial and error, really finding a lot of peace and having these difficult conversations and helping families navigate through some pretty tragic experiences. Again, all of my experiences in the neurotrauma ICU. So a lot of our patients weren't sick for a very long time. Things happened very suddenly. So a lot of our patients and families didn't really have time to really sit with a diagnosis before coming in. A lot of times, it was that immediate insult. And now families are tasked to make a lot of really challenging decisions without having to have any time to really digest the initial injury. So being able to gracefully navigate those conversations and those situations, I really found a lot of peace in it. And I think it was being reflected back by trying to allow my families to find some peace within those moments as well. So I really did believe that you could have a good death in the ICU with a little extra mindfulness and a little extra layer of support and presence. But I think the moment that I really knew that I was going to step away from the bedside. I can share a little story with you. But this was definitely my threshold where I kind of knew that a shift was needed. And it was in the middle of the second wave of the pandemic. I was eight months pregnant, working night shift with an orientee. The ICU was absolutely packed. We were short-staffed. Naturally, resources were scarce, and we were given a third patient, and we typically had that two-to-one ratio. The third patient was an end of lifer, so they were assumed to require less care than the other two patients. And although that may have been true from an intervention standpoint, in terms of providing nursing care, that certainly wasn't the case. And unfortunately, that patient did pass on my shift and without any support, persons with them. And, of course, the ED was circling the census board like sharks, anxiously waiting to send us the next patient to fill that room, because, you know, in a hospital, beds are our real estate, unfortunately. And my charge nurse peeked behind the curtain and she stated, you know, get them out of here. You're getting an x, y, z from the ED.  And in survival mode, sympathetically engaged, we did just that. And about midway through my postmortem care, I looked up and I saw my orientee's face. And that's kind of when it hit me. I asked, is this your first experience caring for a deceased body? And he just looked at me nervously and shook his head. And it was in that moment that I really kind of had that visceral gut punch. My heart sank into my stomach, and I knew, you know, I lost my ability to preserve someone's humanity and therefore was unable to teach that wisdom and my own personal rituals that I, you know, kind of developed over the years in my personal nursing practice to the next generation of nurses. And there were a lot of tears shed on the ride home that next morning. And I went out on maternity leave one month later, and I just chose not to go back. I tell everyone that I quit the ICU cold turkey, and that is exactly kind of how I did it, but it was the only way that I knew how at the time. And what I didn't realize was the subsequent grief experience that I was going to have after leaving the bedside, losing my identity as an ICU nurse. And it really was this ego death that I. That I went through. I needed to learn who I was outside of a nurse, as a new mom, as a partner, as a friend. And it was through navigating my own grief experiences that led to this full circle moment, leaning back into patient care. But from the lens of death care and as a death educator and Doula, I do deeply believe in accessible and inclusive and equitable death care for all. But I really value the sacredness and specifically the creativity that can exist when we find the courage to participate in and acknowledge death as not only a natural process, but a natural part of life. So I'm really trying to destigmatize and rewrite that narrative around death and dying.

[10:07] Michelle: That's fantastic. I mean, what a horrific story. You know, I feel like I was just feeling exactly what you were going through as you were recounting that story. And thank you so much for sharing that. And, you know, one of the things that really resonated with me was the ego death of the ICU nurse. Right. And a couple months ago, an organization Debriefing the Front Lines had a CE that I attended, and it was exactly that ego death of the ICU nurse. And I really saw myself a lot in that, because after I retired, being a NICU nurse for so many years, it's just kind of like you're left with, what do I do now? Who am I? What am I going to be when I grow up? Those kinds of questions. And it's so sad, what a failure of the next generation of nursing and what we were capable of teaching in that moment, but because of the circumstances, we just had to get through it. That's a lot. Yeah, absolutely.

[11:26] Haley: And, you know, certainly a direct result of, you know, the complexities of the system as it is right now. And, you know, I think that's the thing was, you know, once you realize that you're not practicing in the capacity that you wish you could, you can do one of two things, and it is to continue throughout that cycle and just kind of let that system tear you down. And it really is contributing to a lot of nurse burnout, or you can kind of take that step back and ask yourself, how would you like your nursing career to evolve? And that's kind of exactly what I did. And I hit that hard pause, and I'm grateful that I was able to, but it really did give me the ability to pan out a little bit and find the little pieces of my nursing practice that I genuinely, truly loved and wanted to keep and build upon and then the pieces of nursing that weren't really a part of me and that I could really let go of. So that transformation really is a constant process of letting go and letting in.

[12:25] Michelle: I love it. Letting go and letting in. So did you have just an innate, like, knowledge of how to transition into this role, or did you need to go back for some training? How did you learn about it?

[12:42] Haley: Yes. Well, I remember being at the bedside, you know, on night shift, you know, chatting with my colleagues and saying, you know, if a death school is a thing, I want to do that. Not really having any realization at the time that it was. So it took me a while to, to recognize it and then to find a program, and I found this lovely program, the Denver Death Wives. And I, you know, again, and what do I want to be when I grow up? I left the bedside and I got a master's and I got certified in, you know, like, coaching, and maybe I can weave in my yoga and Reiki as well. You know, how can I marry all of these, you know, strange hobbies that I have altogether and, you know, really contribute to the profession in this way? And the end of my doulaship program that I found was that final piece. It really did kind of allow me to weave everything together. And I chose to do a six-week doulaship program. It was a really small, intimate container, and it was, it was beautiful. So to be able to have the clinical background that I did and then be able to lean into a doula ship program that really looks at whole person death care, it really is heart-centered work. You're looking at not just physically what's happening during death and dying, but mentally, emotionally, spiritually, what is occurring for these individuals and their loved ones, their family system as a whole. And how can you hold space for that and, again, more gracefully navigate through this transition? Because it truly is life's greatest transition. And so that really was the additional training that really made me feel confident enough to be able to go out and serve my clients and individuals in this way. And I do have to stress that it is so, you know, a death doula or end-of-life Doula that you'll often hear as well, is a trained nonmedical professional. So this is a lot of community work. We offer holistic and unbiased support to individuals and their families before, during, and after death. And it is that really extra layer of emotional, spiritual, and then the practical assistance as well, just making sure that we're kind of setting up these dreamy environments or the best that we can to ensure a dignified and peaceful transition. So it really is a community-led initiative. It is unlicensed and unregulated. And I think a lot of people within this profession would like to keep it that way because it really does draw out a lot of the natural caregivers within family systems, within the communities, people that have come from long lines of caregivers that kind of naturally step into this role. Women in particular, have been acting as death midwives for centuries. The word doula is just particularly a newer, modern term to describe the care that we're providing. But it wasn't that long ago that death was really intimately interwoven into our daily lives. It was, you know, the carpenter who would make the coffin, it was, you know, the local farmer who would dig the hole. And, you know, a lot of the people in the community that would show up and care for individuals and their families as they passed, including keeping the body in the home for not only the active phases of dying but then also for services and funerals thereafter. So we're just a lot closer to death. And within just the last few decades, have we really turned it into a medical event or have treated it as a medical event, we're just not close to it anymore. So we have really, truly become this death-avoidant society. So it's really leaning back into that world and getting, you know, softening it enough that we can get close enough to it to really start having these conversations with ourselves, with our family members, with friends, with colleagues, so that not only can we lessen some of that fear and anxiety around death and dying, but we can really kind of take back some of that control and again, that creativity, kind of orchestrating and collaborating what we would like that to look like as best as we can.

[17:03] Michelle: Okay, so who are your clients like? Who comes to you? How does it work? How do you get your word out there and provide information? So who are you working with? Are you working with people that are actively dying? Are you working with healthcare professionals? Both? Talk to that.

[17:25] Haley: Yeah. Well, you know, it's such an interesting realm to lean into because, you know, we are all dying. And so, you know, none of us get out of this, this alive. So I potentially meeting clients, you know, any day and every day, and. But of course, it's learning how to introduce yourself and this work, and this is what I do. So this is a newer role for me. So thus far, primarily working with healthcare providers and nurses and, you know, how to provide high-quality end-of-life care at the bedside, which is, you know, sometimes one of the things that we feel most insecure about providing because we're not always really taught that in traditional nursing curriculum. So how can we, you know, better show up for ourselves and our patients and step into those advocacy roles within the clinical world, not only to better serve our patients, but then also to really alleviate some of the grief experiences that we have at the bedside for not really knowing how to hold space or how to provide this care or really just kind of asking the right questions or just being able to kind of sit down and be present with silence and what that may look like. But in terms of Doulaship patients, there are a lot of different types of doulas. Now, I consider myself a full-spectrum doula. So, you know, as soon as someone receives a terminal diagnosis, they can reach out to me and I can provide doula ship services throughout the entire course of their illness and then after death, in addition to grief and bereavement support for their loved ones. So that full spectrum doula is providing that comprehensive support throughout the dying process and throughout postmortem, that post mortem period as well. But there are certain doulas that only work on, you know, helping people set up their advanced directives and their end-of-life planning. There are legacy doulas, which focus on helping individuals create meaningful legacies through activities like recording memories, creating little keepsakes that they're going to pass on, any type of important conversations between, you know, the dying and their loved ones, any type of, you know, reconciliation or kind of facilitating something that would live on after them in that legacy form. And then there are our 11th-hour doulas, which specifically assist individuals during the final hours or moments of life. So this would look more so like someone is discharged from the hospital on hospice and, you know, their passing may be imminent within hours to a few days. Those are called 11th-hour doulas, and they come in specifically during those active phases of dying. And then there are post-mortem doulas, which are called after somebody passes and they offer support to families after the death of a loved one, assisting with funeral arrangements, you know, legacy preservation and grief and bereavement support. A lot of times, postmortem doulas are called after someone maybe has suddenly passed, and people kind of get or feel as though they've been pushed along the system. In terms of my loved one has just passed. You know, let's just, you know, get them to a most convenient funeral home. Let's get services. And everything is kind of boom, boom, boom done and over with. You get the run-of-the-mill service, and then afterward, when you kind of have that moment to breathe and reflect, loved ones kind of want something that is a little bit more unique and specific in honoring their loved one. So they'll call a doula and say, you know what? This just didn't really resonate with, you know, the person that we're honoring. And is there any way that we can create a ceremony or a celebration of life that better suits the life well lived and we can come in and we can help plan a celebration? And the beautiful thing about Doulas is we really want to formulate a relationship with the person who is dying and their loved ones. It is not uncommon for Doulas to get on the phone for an hour plus or to meet in person for several hours with extended family members, because we really want to get a whole picture of who this person is, who this person was, what is important to them, and really be able to weave together this beautiful story of this person that can be honored in a way that feels right for them.

[21:58] Michelle: That's beautiful. Such comprehensive services that you provide. So there's really something for everyone. Are your doulas ever working in a hospital with the dying?

[22:12] Haley: You know what? Doulas are more than capable of sitting in on doctors visits and meetings, and they will visit their, their clients in the hospital, but we have yet to really integrate them into our Western, you know, biomedical model of care. And. And I certainly would love to see the day that that happens. I think that there are certain benefits that we could have by doing so. And this is one of the things that I will be advocating for in the future because I think it is such a lovely service. But unfortunately, this is a private service that people are paying for. It typically does not get reimbursed by any insurance companies, Medicare, Medicaid, so. So making doula ships accessible for those are really important because it is a beautiful, holistic view of death care. But by integrating death doulas into our current model of healthcare, it really would shift the focus on whole patient-centered care. And I think that's the thing to really drive home when our providers are really not that we're not. But from the nature of this system, we really are heavily focused on the physiological aspects of disease. We're very intervention-based. It's not that we don't want to acknowledge the emotional and spiritual aspects of our patient care. Our system just isn't designed to allow us a lot of the extra time and resources to do so. So to be able to kind of promote, like you said, that comprehensive well-being, having a doula, a part of that team, would be able to kind of fill that hole, and that also just enhances the patient experience as well. To really have someone who can spend the time that allows them to feel seen and earned and validated within their experience will ultimately improve patient satisfaction, which we know hospitals love to hear. That'll be one of my driving points home.

[24:13] Michelle: That is so true.

[24:14] Haley: It is. It is. You always have to tie it back to the bottom line. Unfortunately. 

[24:21] Michelle: Working in the NICU, I would see labor and delivery doulas. Right. And they were employed by the hospital, and they are there to help the mother through labor, the family after delivery, all of that. Do you foresee a time when hospitals may hire death doulas or end-of-life doulas?

[24:44] Haley: I do. At least I hope so. But I. And first of all, that is lovely. I wish that I would have had the foresight to have a doula when I had my two little ones, but I do. And I think that by doing so, we would improve not only our end-of-life planning, but the experience of the end of life and passing away within the hospital system, we would be able to provide better support for not only the patient, but the family as well, which I think is huge. So honoring, and I guess falling more aligned with our care and our patient's wishes and ensuring that we're following their wishes accordingly, would be the biggest benefit that I would see to that. And by doing so as well, it would reduce a lot of caregiver burden that already contributes to our experiences of burnout. Just by alleviating the emotional burden on caregivers, providing the emotional support, guidance, resources, allowing caregivers to focus on the physical care so that doulas can kind of step in and again, really change the environment so that, you know, the outcome may not be different, but the perception of the experience may be able to be different or shifted in a more positive way.

[26:03] Michelle: I see that as something that would really benefit everybody in a hospital system if you had to die in that way, which. That's nothing that, you know, I just think it's a crime to die in a hospital. And, you know, I worked in a hospital for 40 years, and maybe that's why I think it's a crime to die in a hospital. I don't know. I think that definitely has affected it. So how do you provide culturally sensitive end-of-life care? Because, you know, as you know, there are many cultures out there and they believe different things and they have different practices. But how do you teach that? And how do you educate yourself on culturally sensitive care?

[26:53] Haley: Absolutely. Well, first and foremost, it all comes in building that rapport in that relationship with that client, really getting the opportunity to sit down and get to know them. What are their core values? What are their beliefs? What is important to them? What are the things that they practice in their daily life? Could you invite me into what that experience is like for you? So a lot of times our clients write the script. They are teaching us how to take care of them. But of course, adding that extra layer of education as well with just educating yourself on a lot of different cultures, their death practices, because culturally, death practices vary. And so to be able to be adaptable and be able to know essentially where to go to find these resources and support these individuals is really the first step, is just being able to sit down and meet someone where they are and being able to have unbiased communication and really learning, you know, what is important to them and then recognizing, you know, do I have the capacity to provide this for them? Am I the right doula for them? And I think that's the beautiful thing about doulas, is oftentimes we do work within teams or have referral networks to know who can best serve our clients. So that is pretty much the easiest way to sit down and provide culturally competent care. It's really just getting to know your patients. And then, of course, this is a continual learning experience. So you're always going to continue to educate yourself as well throughout the process.

[28:30] Michelle: Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, really, like you said, sitting down with your patient, getting to know them, letting them tell you what their practices are, but also, you know, being aware of different culturally sensitive practices. So that's great. So are you working, you're working with healthcare providers? Like, how are you getting out there in the community so that people can find you? Are you going into different facilities, or different physician offices? You know, how are you getting your word out there that, so that somebody could find you?

[29:10] Haley: Yes. I mean, not quite yet. I am anticipating moving, actually from Colorado back to Pennsylvania, so it kind of hit pause on that. But even just kind of researching the community that I'm moving to and where, where's that going to? What is that going to look like? And essentially you're looking at the next steps before death. So primary care physicians, hospices, spiritual care providers. You know, where do. Where do those that receive a terminal illness, where do they turn to first? Or who are they receiving that information from? And then being able to provide your services or let them know that, you know, hi, I exist. These are what, you know, these are the services I offer. If you have any patients that would benefit from what I'm able to provide, please send them my way. While I'm still here in Colorado, I'm really just working with other doulas and hosting events in the area. I am working with Eric Rooney from Regeneration Earth. He also owns Half Moon Farms in Lakewood, Colorado. They're hosting a death dinner and discussion event at the end of April specifically for healthcare workers. So we are going to be hosting an event where we're really kind of getting up close and personal to the death conversations that most people within healthcare shy away from. It is the challenges of navigating the dying within the healthcare system. It is the grief experience that's associated with feeling as though we can't provide the care that we want to within the limited capacity of the system, and then also just providing some really good, yummy self care with it as well, and then being able to kind of have that own reflection and death contemplation, asking ourselves, like, you know, have you ever considered your own life, end of life experience and the care that you would like to or not like to receive? I think working in the hospital, you know, we've seen a lot of different aspects of care, a lot of different advanced directives. What happens when someone doesn't have an advanced directive? And I think all of us kind of, you know, we personally bank like, yes, I would want that. No, I don't want that. You know, you know, and I myself even have to, you know, go back and revise, you know, my will and advanced directives as well. And I think right now, I just have, you know, a threatening verbal agreement with my husband with, you know, please don't ever, you know, do this to me or x, Y and Z. And of course, you know, that's not appropriate either.

[31:35] Michelle: We've all done it, though, right?

[31:37] Haley: Exactly. So take all of these conversations that we have, or we see, and really, what do they mean and how can we document them? Do we have documented wishes? What would that look like? Where is it? And I think that's something with becoming an end-of-life doula as well. It's really navigating these things where we know about them as bedside professionals, but we really don't know the nuances of them. Or maybe some of us haven't even filled out an advanced directive ourselves or asked our parents or other loved ones, you know, do you have one? And where is it? Is it in a shoebox in the back of the closet? Or is it, you know, somewhere where it's locked or kept away? Like, how do I get access to this in a situation where I may need it? And that's a really interesting challenge. This is just a side note, but, you know, for Doulas and family or that we're coming in contact with from the stories of our family members, you know, so many years ago, grandma's attic, you know, we were just cleaning out the attic, and now Grandma's attic is password protected. And so, so how do we access a lot of files and, you know, bank accounts and things that we need to that unfortunately either exacerbate the grief experience or prolong that grief experience, when really you just want to be present with the loved one who's dying or really be present in the bereavement period that is immediately following. And unfortunately, we're sifting through papers or on the phone with customer service because we can't get access to the things that we need to. So that's one of the things that we talk about with advanced care planning as well. And in terms of healthcare providers, we're also going to kind of challenge them a little bit, too. And, you know, imagine how you would like your future healthcare providers to advocate in alignment for your own definition of quality of life. And depending on what that, you know, is, do you feel comfortable advocating in that way for your patients? And so it really is just a little reframe of how can I step into the best advocacy role instead of going through our admission checklist and say, you know, do you have an advanced directive? Yes or no? Yes. Great. Can you bring it in and it, you know, goes away in the chart? You never look at it ever again or no. Great. Here's a pamphlet on how to create one. And we don't really sit down and go through what that actually looks like and what those levels of care and intervention look like. What does it mean to receive artificial nutrition as a life-sustaining measure? What does it mean to have a breathing tube in for an extended period of time? What does it actually mean to say, you know, I'm going to voluntarily stop eating and drinking, you know, at this point? And so what do those things actually look like? And what are the implications for those individual patients? Because everything is really unique and individualistic and what is right for one person may not be the right choice for another person. And, you know, it is not our prerogative to shift or change that. But we do have a moral imperative to educate and to give our patients the best possible resources to make an informed decision. And that starts with the healthcare provider being confident enough to be able to sit down and have those conversations with them as well. And it requires our own level of understanding. So that is just a little bit of. Kind of how I've been working with nurses to provide high-quality end-of-life care, but then also how it kind of ripples out to the care that I provide to my patients, or I guess I should say clients outside of the hospital setting as well, because for some, you know, like you said, they don't want to die in the hospital. So what would it look like to take your loved one home? Is the family set up for success to take them home? Do they have the necessary supplies? And how can we find them the right resources so that they can take their loved one home safely?

[35:28] Michelle: Yeah, it's a much-needed education, I think, for the public in general. You know, we're just so death-aversive. We're so death-denying. And especially in healthcare, everything we do is aimed towards preventing death. Right. And so to be able to educate nurses on all these little nuances of the entire experience, and that, that's just so crucial. So I come from a large family, eight kids and seven nurses in that whole bunch, and or six nurses. I'm sorry. And, you know, when my dad was dying of lung cancer, we found, you know, it difficult to navigate some of those situations. And we're all nurses. And so, you know, we didn't have the tools, a lot of the tools that. That we needed. And thank God, you know, we were blessed with some great hospice nurses and some wonderful physicians and providers that really helped us get kind of up to snuff really quickly. It can be very devastating to have a family member, a loved one, you know, be diagnosed with a terminal illness and try to navigate that. And I could just imagine if you had absolutely no experience whatsoever, how that would be so difficult. So let's say there are nurses. You know, some of your clients are nurses, and maybe they work in hospitals, and they don't necessarily want to be an end-of-life doula, but they want to be able, in the moment, to provide, I guess, better care, more thoughtful care, more directed care towards their patients who are dying? Would they be somebody who could benefit from your education and your experience?

[37:45] Haley: Absolutely. I mean, I still do provide one one-on-one coaching and mentorship of nurses, and everyone has their niche, and this kind of tends to be my bread and butter, but it also tends to be an area where nurses do feel a little bit more insecure in practices. So for anybody that wants to hone in on the support that they provide around end-of-life care, I can certainly help to refine those skills and those practices and even just kind of teaching through personal practice, you know, what that present moment awareness looks like? What it looks like to hold space, what it looks like to hold certainty as well. I think that's one of the things a lot of us go into this profession because we want to help. But oftentimes that pendulum can swing too far to one side where we feel as though we want to fix. And that's not always necessarily our job. You know, being sick is not a bad thing. It just is. So how do we come into a space and be able to navigate those conversations without delivering some of that false hope? So how can we hold with certainty? You know, and this might look a little bit in conversation, like a patient saying, you know, you know, am I going to die from this? Or, you know, some of those heavy questions that a lot of especially newer nurses, you know, you already, you can feel yourself get fidgety in your body and you're like, oh, God, is that my call? Light going off down the hall? Like, I gotta go, I'll be back. Because again, we're just not hot in those moments to, to really meet the moment where they are. So holding certainty might look like sitting down with this patient and be like, you know what? I don't exactly know where this is going to go, but I'm really confident that you're discovering your way, and it's the ability to hold the potential for wholeness to exist in any given moment. Because just because we're sick does not mean that we're not a whole person. And it really is something that I think a lot of our loved ones face. Once they receive a terminal diagnosis or they have a hospitalization where they're sick for an extended period of time, the behavior of everyone around them kind of shifts and changes. And so to be able to treat someone as though, you know, yes, this is still my loved one and they happen to be sick or, and they happen to be at the end of their life, not allowing it to be all-consuming and now change again the identity of this person. It really is just something that they are experiencing. And at some point, we will all experience, experience something similar. So it's, again, holding certainty is just preserving the potential for wholeness to exist in any given moment. Nobody is less whole because they are sick or dying. So again, shifting that narrative, and I should have mentioned this earlier as well, I think one of the beautiful things that the public can go and be a part of, and this is something that I hope to host in my small town that I will be moving back to, is a death cafe. And it is just an open, free event where people can go. And it is, it's not really moderated, but there is someone who is there facilitating. The whole point is to really allow a really open, curious dialogue around death and grief. I've been to several myself here in Denver, and they are just a really beautiful way to, again, soften the topic enough where you can lean in, you can ask questions, you can share your experiences, and you can find the support of other people that are within this realm as well. So that is a beautiful way to not only find Doulas, because a lot of times, again, we have an affinity for the deaf conversation. So we show up in a lot of these spaces and there is a website because it is a nationally hosted event and there are a lot of them in local cities. And if there isn't, there is a link to find out a guide on how to host one in your city. If there is not one already. And most of the time they're hosted by doulas or someone within the deaf education space, but they don't have to. So if you are just, you know, a very motivated member of your community and you really think that this is a service that your community could benefit from, you can certainly go and host your own death cafe, and it is truly a beautiful experience. So I highly, highly encourage everyone to attend at least one.

[42:07] Michelle: Well, I did not know that those existed and that would, I would definitely be interested in attending one of those. And I think a lot of people would. I think it'd be such a benefit to the community. So this next question comes from my daughter, actually. When she heard that I was interviewing you, she got so excited. She thought it was so cool. And so she. And she doesn't normally, sometimes I'll tell her some things about guests that I'm interviewing and, and, you know, she's like, oh, that's cool. But she was really, really interested in you, Haley. So she wanted me to ask you a question. And so here's her. Yeah, so here's her question. Who do you feel has the tougher time with death is it the person that's dying, or is it the family?

[43:06] Haley: Ooh, I know. Right? Then. Kudos to your daughter. Oh, my gosh. This is. This is wonderful. I think it really, you know, it depends. Everything is really individualistic at the end of life. Some people have explored their own mortality a little bit sooner than others. Sometimes an initial diagnosis is the first time that anyone has ever contemplated their own mortality, and it does seem to be a little bit of a shock to the system, and you're meeting it for the first time. In addition to maybe having the symptoms of being sick, however, I will say I do think that the dying do maybe lean into the acceptance piece a little bit sooner than family members. And one of the reasons being is family members have an extra layer of grief because they're going to outlive the experience of the active phases of dying. So not only are they having this grief, that they are going to lose this person who they love so dearly, but then they also have to have the lived experience of living life without them. And so, you know, how does they're anticipating not only the loss, but then the big shift in daily life of, you know, I have a new normal now, and what does this look like? So I think they have an extra layer of grief, but. And in terms of having a harder time, I think it's just very different. It's a different grief experience.

[44:45] Michelle: That's a great answer. And she'll be listening. She said, I'm definitely listening to that episode. She has so much guilt over it. Yeah. She's like, mom, I don't listen to every episode. I'm like, hey, that's okay. You don't have to. I know you support me, so thank you for that. And. And that's like, that's some terrific insight. And I feel like, you know, maybe that can only come from somebody that's worked with the. The dying and. And so intimately that you have that peek into that whole dynamic. Yeah. Okay, so here's a question that might put you on the spot a little bit, and if you don't want to answer it now, you can email me later. But I just recently started asking this question. So is there someone that you would recommend as a guest on this podcast?

[45:44] Haley: Oh, gosh, yes. There's so many. We actually mentioned Debriefing the Front Lines earlier in this podcast, and their founder, Tara, is a lovely human being, and I think Debriefing the Front Lines is just an incredible organization, and I will support them. And the cows come home, but they are a nonprofit that provides comprehensive resources for navigating cumulative caretaking trauma for frontline workers and other healthcare providers alike. So they would certainly be number one on my list because I just think it's a lovely resource. And I know how beneficial debriefing was for me at the bedside and how it helped in navigating my own burnout and even just recognizing my own thresholds and capacity to be able to care for others. So I think that that would be my number one recommendation.

[46:33] Michelle: Well, I absolutely love Tara. And we actually had an interview date set up, and then Tara came down with something. So we are trying to navigate getting another date set up. So if you have any insider, you know, push, you can text Tara and be like, hey, get on Michelle's calendar. But yeah, she's amazing. I've taken a couple of the CE courses so far with Debriefing the Front Lines and just a fantastic organization on what they're doing for nurses. It's definitely admirable. Yeah. So I would, I would. I agree with your sentiments there. Thank you, Haley.

[47:17] Haley: Absolutely.

[47:18] Michelle: Well, where can we find you?

[47:21] Haley: Yes, well, I have a presence on Facebook and Instagram @ThirdEyeNurse, anyone can always just reach out and email me as well at third eyenurse@gmail.com. I do have a website. It's welcome to thirdeyenurse.com, but I think that it will be shifting along with my shift back to Pennsylvania. So the nature of that will look a little different and change. But yes, please, please find me on social media and feel free to reach out or direct message me. And I'd love to connect with anybody who's interested in getting into this space or feels as though they could benefit from services within providing holistic dealership services.

[47:58] Michelle: Great. Yes, I have all those links, and I will put those in the show notes so that people can reach out to you. And this has been a real pleasure, I have to say. I love the video aspect of this. Our audience won't see us on video yet, but maybe someday. But it's been wonderful just seeing your face and being able to connect with you that way.

[48:22] Haley: I love it.

[48:23] Michelle: So thank you, Haley, so much for coming on today and just sharing your experience and your knowledge with us on end-of-life care. End-of-life doulas, death doulas. Thank you so much.

[48:41] Haley: Thank you, Michelle, so much for having me. This was genuinely a lovely experience, and I have enjoyed the video as well.

[48:49] Michelle: Yes, you've got a bird's eye view of my closet. All right, well, we've reached the end so, you know, it's time for the five-minute snippet. Haley, this is where we just have a lot of fun for five minutes.

[49:04] Haley: Let's do it.

[49:05] Michelle: Ready for that?

[49:06] Haley: I am.

[49:07] Michelle: Okay. You have a playful spirit, so I know these will be fun for you. Okay, here we go. If you could have a conversation with anyone, alive or dead, who would it be?

[49:27] Haley: Oh, goodness. One of the people that I've always said that I would love is Jeff Buckley. He is a musician. He passed away, and he. I've just been so heavily influenced by his music over the years. It would definitely be him.

[49:42] Michelle: These are some heavy questions. Okay. If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be and why?

[49:50] Haley: Ooh, this is a heavy hitter, and I love it. Oh, gosh. I feel like I have a litany of things that are just rolling through, like, my head, like a ticker tape right now. But I think that I will stick in the realm of healthcare, because I think that I could otherwise go off on a lot of tangents, and I think universal healthcare for all. There's no reason that anybody should be denied access to healthcare. It is a fundamental right, and so that is where I'm going to leave it for that question. Otherwise, that will be a podcast for a different day.

[50:26] Michelle: Oh, my gosh. Yes. That is. I echo your sentiments. Okay. If you could have any animal as a pet, but it had to be a talking animal, which one would you choose?

[50:43] Haley: Oh, I love this, because as I'm planning on moving back to Pennsylvania, I'm also looking for land to start this mini homestead. And I already have the names of chickens picked out, and I want alpacas, chip pickles, and chewpacka. So I'm going to go with my future alpacas.

[50:59] Michelle: Oh, my gosh. I love it. You sound so akin to my daughter. She wants a goat farm, and also the Highland Coo, the cows from Scotland.

[51:15] Haley: Oh, I love it.

[51:17] Michelle: That's great. Okay. If you had to wear a costume every day for the rest of your life, which costume would you wear?

[51:26] Haley: Oh, my goodness. I feel like my daughter has been. She's three. She's been in costume for about the last six months. She hit the princess space hard. But honestly, I've always kind of, you know, leaned into. I have some witchy vibes about me. I would definitely go into a classic witch dressed like that on the regular as well.

[51:52] Michelle: Well, I mean, if you had to wear it for the rest of your life, you know, maybe that would work. Okay. If you could be any mythical creature for one day. Which one would you choose?

[52:05] Haley: Ooh, creature. Ooh, this is a hard one. Probably a pegasus. Just because I could fly and jump and, yeah, do all of the fun things that are whimsical for being a pegasus. Wow.

[52:19] Michelle: Yeah, that would be very cool. When you said Pegasus, I was thinking about Harry Potter, and my patronus was the horse, and I can't think of what its name is now, but, yeah, that would be very cool. Okay. Would you rather live in a world without technology or without books?

[52:43] Haley: Without technology. 100%. Yeah.

[52:46] Michelle: A hundred percent.

[52:48] Haley: Gotcha.

[52:49] Michelle: Would you rather have the ability to time travel or the ability to read minds?

[52:57] Haley: Oh, you know, I always thought that I wanted to read minds, and then sometimes I recognize what goes through my own head, and I was like, no. No one deserves to hear that. So we'll go with time travel.

[53:08] Michelle: I love it. Okay, last question. Would you rather live in a world with only black and white colors or a world with only neon colors?

[53:21] Haley: Neon, definitely.

[53:23] Michelle: Haley, I had you picked for that one. I was like, she's going to pick neon.

[53:29] Haley: Yeah.

[53:29] Michelle: Yes. Black and white. That's just too boring. Right.

[53:33] Haley: Of course. Like, we already have.

[53:34] Michelle: Well, you did great. I feel like you were channeling your, you said you have a three-year-old and a eight-year-old?

[53:43] Haley: Three year old and a one-year-old. I am the one-year-old, early mother.

[53:48] Michelle: Yes, you are. Well, that was fun.

[53:51] Haley: That was fun.

[53:51] Michelle: You did great. So thank you for indulging me. Yes, I appreciate it. And I appreciate you coming on today and again, just sharing your love for what you do and how you help nurses really navigate death and dying and end-of-life care. It's so important and it's so forgotten. So thank you so much, Haley. Have a great rest of your day.

[54:18] Haley: Thank you. You as well, Michelle. Take care.