Certified Enneagram Coach and Nurse, Gwen Sledge

Meet Gwen Sledge, a retired nurse and Certified Enneagram Coach. Gwen has a deep understanding of the Enneagram and is passionate about using her healthcare experience to help nurses understand how their personality, communication style, and behavior affect their relationships. 
Not sure what the Enneagram is? I wasn’t either but I learned it’s a personality typing tool that categorizes individuals into nine distinct personality types, each with its own core fears, desires, and patterns of thinking and behaving.
In all honesty, I was initially skeptical but after taking the assessment, I was amazed by the accuracy of this tool. I discovered I am a type two and Gwen is a type six and you’ll hear how our readings are reflected in our practice. 
You might be wondering, "Why is this even important?" As nurses, we collaborate closely with a variety of disciplines in stressful environments, and Gwen pointed out that by understanding your Enneagram type, you can gain insight into behavior which can, in turn, lead to deeper connections and more authentic relationships. And that sounds like a win-win situation to me.
In the five-minute snippet: well, what would you do if you grew a tail overnight? For Gwen's bio, visit my website (link below).
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[00:00] Michelle: Meet Gwen Sledge, a retired nurse and certified Enneagram coach. Gwen has a deep understanding of the enneagram and is passionate about using her healthcare experience to help nurses understand how their personality, communication style, and behavior affect their relationships. Not sure what the enneagram is. I wasn't either. But I learned it's a personality typing tool that categorizes individuals into nine distinct personality types, each with its own core fears, desires, and patterns of thinking and behaving. In all honesty, I was initially skeptical. However after taking the assessment, I was amazed by the accuracy of this tool. I discovered I am a type two and Gwen is a type six. And you'll hear how our readings are reflected in our practice. You might be wondering, why is this even important? As nurses, we collaborate closely with a variety of disciplines in stressful environments, and Gwen pointed out that by understanding your Enneagram type, you can gain insight into behavior, which can in turn lead to deeper connections and more authentic relationships. And that sounds like a win-win situation to me. In the five-minute snippet: Well, what would you do if you grew a tail overnight? Well, good morning, Gwen. Welcome to the podcast.

[01:55] Gwen: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me today.

[01:59] Michelle: I'm excited to talk to you. I met you, like many of my other wonderful guests on Instagram, and I saw your page Enneagram with Gwen, and I was instantly like, oh, yeah, I've heard of that. And I know a lot of my nurse friends and colleagues have done the enneagram and they have talked about it, and it just went over my head, like, I have no idea what that is. I know it's some sort of, like, personality test, so I'm excited to learn all about it. But because I'm a real nerd about how nurses got into nursing, I want to hear that story first.

[02:42] Gwen: Sure. So I've been a nurse since 1991. I graduated from Western Kentucky University and started in critical care and have mixed feelings on whether that was a good idea or not. But I did. And so I worked for, at first started just in a general ICU and quickly realized that I loved cardiac. So I went into the CVICU and worked. We called that open heart recovery back then and did that for a few years and just really enjoyed that, but quickly learned that that was not conducive to having a family in terms of working night shift and weekends, holidays. So transitioned from that to a same-day surgery position. Still had some weekends and holidays in that role. I did enjoy doing that as well. But in 1998, a role came, a position came open at my hospital in cardiac rehab, and I was fairly unfamiliar. It was a pretty new program for our hospital. And so investigated that and reluctantly left the bedside and went into cardiac rehab and just really fell in love with that role. Back then, the way that they structured our cardiac rehab program was that I would actually get to see the patients on their pre-op visit, take them, and tour the open heart recovery suite and the recovery area where they would spend their first two days. And so I would get to meet them on the front end and. And then follow them all the way through their inpatient rehab and their outpatient rehab. So the way that that works is they go through a twelve-week program. And for our program, once they completed that twelve weeks, they were able to stay with for indefinitely in our wellness program. So I had patients who started with me in 1998 and were still with me until 2020 when our policies changed. So as a wellness program, and, you know, they use this as their, like their gym, but we still, each day they got their vital signs checked, and we looked at their heart rhythm every time they were there. And so we not only had, you know, transplant patients and patients straight out of open heart to patients who had been with us and were still pursuing their wellness 20 years later, so we really developed a family-like atmosphere and just was a very sweet spot for me, as you can imagine, with, you know, being in a role that is very family-friendly. No weekends, no holidays, no nights. In those positions, nurses rarely leave. And so I was also able to work with the same nurse that I trained when I went on maternity leave back in 1998. She's still there to this day and just a fabulous co-worker. And so it was a really sweet position for me. In 2021, my husband's territory changed. He's been with AT&T for many years, and his territory changed, and Tennessee was added. And we had lived in Kentucky for 30 years or all of our lives, but in that city for 30 years. And so both of our adult children, son-in-law, and my grandchildren had all relocated to Nashville. And so when my husband's territory changed to Tennessee, it just made sense for us, us to relocate to be closer to our kids and our grandkids. And so we made a move. And then, for sure, the hardest part of leaving my city was leaving my role in cardiac rehab. So I have stepped away from that position for now. And in 2019, right before COVID my girls had come to me and asked me if I had heard of the Enneagram. And so that's when I first heard of the Enneagram and started, you know, just looking into with more curiosity about how I process and why I process in some of the ways that I do is very timely, because when COVID came, we. Our unit was closed. We were, you know, considered to be more like a gym. And so we were the first unit to close in our hospital. And so I was relocated to infection prevention and was in that role for, even after I went back to cardiac rehab, I still continued to help them in that department, some on a part-time basis. And so it was very timely for me to start to process how I process. And I've always had a burden for our nursing community and our healthcare workers and just the heaviness that they endure on a daily basis. But that obviously became much more apparent during COVID and just the burden of the health of our healthcare workers is really heavy on my heart. But when we relocated, I was already just really listening to a lot of podcasts and learning more about the Enneagram. And so during that transition, in 2021, I started pursuing a certification as a life coach and as a certified Enneagram coach. So when we relocated to Nashville, I really felt like that was a good time for me to pursue that. And so last year, 2023, I launched. I had gotten my certification, and I launched my business. And then through this year, I've continued to my first certification was as an Enneagram coach. And then through this last year, I've pursued just a general life coaching certification as well, but also use the Enneagram. And right now, I'm completing a certification for business and leadership development. So working more with teams and with the goal to marry these two passions, really. I predominantly coach women and coach women in any season, but I really have a passion for nurses and for healthcare workers who are daily pouring themselves out and oftentimes don't take time to pour into themselves. We all know that it's very hard to pour from an empty cup, and you know that we have to put our oxygen masks on before we can. Can help others. And so that's my goal and my current role.

[10:14] Michelle: Wow, that's a lot. Man, I have so much respect going into nursing, going right into critical care like that is. It's like, wow, that's bravery. And I remember exactly what you were talking about in the nineties because our institution owned a gym and we also started a cardiac rehab program. And I remember the nurse that was the cardiac rehab nurse. And, man, when you were talking, I was like, their personalities are so similar. It was just really uncanny and just a really successful program still going to this day. That nurse has since retired, but really interesting. And I loved your story. Thank you so much for telling it. Like I said, I'm a nerd. I, you know, working so many years as a nurse, nurses don't have those conversations with each other. We don't ask each other, what is your why? Why did you get into nursing? How did it happen? And now I'm so lucky because I get to hear all these stories of how everyone got started. So it's really a joy for me. And thank you so much for sharing that.

[11:37] Gwen: I really enjoyed listening to your podcast and hearing that. Just the stories of so many nurses and, their journey, because like you said, it's just, it's not often that we take the time to share those things with others. So I really appreciate your podcast for that reason. I've binged it.

[11:55] Michelle: Thank you so much. Yeah, and I, you know, I get to be on the receiving end of hearing those stories, too. So I just love it. But I want to get into the Enneagram because, you know, once I met you, I was like, well, what is this all about? And I asked you for your assessment tool and you sent that to me. And I am a two. Give us any history about the Enneagram and how it works and how we can use it to become self-aware of our different personality types.

[12:36] Gwen: Sure. So its personality tool is basically Ennea stands for nine, and Gram stands for picture or diagram. So it's a personality tool that's divided into nine different types, and they're simply just numbered one through nine. The difference, I would say, in the Enneagram, as I understand it, and other personality typing systems are that the Enneagram focuses more on the motivations behind why we do what we do. So if you think of nine different people with nine sets of sunglasses, and each set of sunglasses has a different colored lens, and we are looking at the same picture, we're seeing the same thing. We're all seeing the same picture, but we're seeing it through a slightly different lens and that, you know, that lens being tinted to whatever color. So one thing that I do want to say is that we use pieces of all nine types. But when you look at those core motivations, which is what you want to use to determine your type, because many of the types can look very similar, especially when we use pieces of all of those. But when you drill it down to those core motivations, each of us has one primary set of core motivations. So nine of us may do the exact same behavior for nine different reasons. And when you know the reason behind why you're doing what you do, it's easier to navigate if you're picking up unhealthy behaviors or unhealthy patterns. So I like to describe it, and I've heard that the folks that I got my certification through, which is called your Enneagram coach, and then Simply Wholehearted, is the other organization. We describe it as a GPS system. So if you think about having your GPS on and it helps us to navigate not only to recognize our strengths, but when our strengths become out of balance, they become our challenges. So, as an example, since you mentioned type two, our type twos are helpers, and they are just wonderful servants, and that is their strength. Their superpower is that they see a need, and they almost can see a need and have it met before the rest of us even recognize that there was one. And so that's a wonderful superpower. But if that becomes out of balance, that can look like someone who would insert their help without being asked. So they can be, you know, perceived as a little bit intrusive. And if it's taken very far out of balance, it can become codependent. And so our strengths taken out of balance are really what become our weaknesses. So that has just been so helpful for me because as I've learned more about the way I'm wired, things that used to really, really frustrate me about myself, I've been able to better understand and not use it as an excuse, but more to use it as a rumble strip on the highway. If you think of the rumble strips on the highway where when you start to veer off the highway and you hit feel that rumble, it, you know, it wakes you up and brings you back onto the. To your right, safe and healthy path. When I start to see these things that are really strength in me but have gotten out of balance, it's like hitting that rumble strip, and I can navigate back to where just walking in my healthiest self and able to, you know, utilize the way that I was wired in a. With those strengths as opposed to falling back on the unhealthier side. So there's many, many layers, and we could spend a lot of time talking about that. But for the sake of time, I think it would probably benefit us to talk, just to focus more on the core motivations of each type, because that's really where you want to start in trying to discern your number. I would say as far as a test goes, and we'll have access to those, but tests are about 75% to 85% accurate, because sometimes we subconsciously answer the questions the way that we think we should, or what seems to be like should be the right answer. And without really digging deep, and depending on how self-aware you are, your test could be not fully accurate. So I recommend starting with a test and then looking at, like, the top three scores and learning more about those top three and then discerning whether those core motivations really fit you or not. When you hear me go over the core motivations, it's very tempting and very realistic to say, well, who doesn't want that? Like, all of those nine things are, none of these are wrong. They can just be taken out of balance. So bear in mind that while, yes, we may resonate with six out of nine of these, if you could only choose one, what would be the most important? And chances are that's gonna be different for you than it would be for me. So I would just encourage folks when they, you know, first start to learn about it, to really look at those core motivations and as opposed to behaviors, because we may all want. Nine of us may want a clean house, for example, but we would all could very well want that for a different reason. And so for you, as a type two, you might wanna clean house because you always wanna be ready to be able to host and have a warm, loving, inviting environment for folks who come into your home. But for me, I want a clean home because I want it to feel safe and secure for my family, and I want it to serve well. It's just coming from a little bit different angle as far as what my motivation would be in terms of that. Does that make sense?

[19:28] Michelle: Yes, it really makes sense. And so much of what you said resonates with me. I recognized my behaviors in so many of those. Now that I'm thinking about a two and what I've read about it, you know, us being the helpers and, you know, that's great and everything, and anticipating people's needs. But then I know for myself that I have gotten in trouble because I have gone too far. And I have, like you said, offered advice where it wasn't requested or maybe welcomed. And I see some of those codependency traits as well. So I grew up in an alcoholic atmosphere. There are traits of codependency in those kinds of environments. And so, you know, it's kind of one of those things, like, is it, which came first, the chicken or the egg? Right. But I definitely saw myself in the house cleaning. So I do most of my house cleaning when I'm really nervous. It's just a way for me to kind of offload some of my energy and my anxiety. But also, you know, I really love hosting people. I love having parties, and I love my house to just be party-ready. And it's so funny that you said that, because so many of my friends and family are like, does your house ever get messy? And I'm like, yes, it really does. You know, but they, they never see it like that because when they come over, it's always looking really nice. So that's just, it just fascinates me, these, these tools to kind of gauge our personality. So let's walk through because you talked about those types and the core values of each of them. So let's walk through those. Just give us a brief description of each one of those.

[21:31] Gwen: Sure. So as I go over these, you're going to hear me talk about the core fear. This would be what each number is running from. The core desire is what we're going to be running towards. The core weakness is, I would describe it as the thorn in our side. It's the thing that we're always going to be fighting against, you know, especially when we're not at our healthiest. The core longing is what our heart longs to hear. So I'll start with the number one. And we've been given, like, different organizations have given a nickname for each number. So I'll use the numbers that Your Enneagram Coaches, the description that they use, which is for the type one, that's called the moral perfectionist. These folks have a deep sense of integrity. They tend to see through a lens of good and bad, right and wrong. Something that's very specific to the one is that they tend to have a very loud inner critic, and so they have a voice that can be berating, and it is constantly telling them what, pointing out imperfections both in them and in others or systems or things in the world that need to be improved upon. And they feel a strong sense of duty to be continually improving themselves and the world around them. So their core fear is in being wrong, bad, or corruptible. Their core desire is to be good, ethical, and conscientious. Their core weakness is resentment. They repress anger because they feel that anger is wrong, but they have an internal feeling of resentment or anger that things are not measuring up to the way that they should be. This way world is not as it should be. And their core longing is to hear, you are good. So they have a superpower of leading others to higher values and holding a high standard. And that's a wonderful trait as a nurse. They are precise and ethical, but they can be rigid, very particular and perfectionistic. So that's just a brief description of the type one. The type two's are known as supportive advisors. At their best, they're thoughtful, generous. They prioritize relationships and tend to be very nurturing. Their core fear is in being rejected, feeling unwanted, worthless, dispensable, or unworthy of love. Their core desire is to be appreciated, loved, wanted. Their core weakness is pride. And sometimes it's hard for teeth to see this because they're so giving. But they tend to deny that they have needs or emotions and deflect that onto others. In terms of they focus more on inserting their help and their support of other people while denying their own needs. They long to hear you're wanted and you're loved. Their superpower is that they recognize needs and meet them quickly. They're warm and kind, but they're subconsciously their motive can be giving love in order to receive love. They can have issues with boundaries, as we talked about, by inserting themselves and by overextending themselves, they often really struggle with being, with saying no. And others can take, unintentionally take advantage of that, because they know that our twos are dependable and will often say yes and, you know, out of their desire to be helpful. But it can get them overextended. Type threes are called successful achievers. They're charming and magnetic and optimistic. They tend to be very accomplished, and they love setting and reaching goals. Their core fear is failing or being perceived as incompetent or inefficient. Their core desire is to be admired, successful, valued. Their core weakness is deceit. And it's not that they are, that they're untruthful, but they put on a false Persona. They can shapeshift into being what is needed in the moment and in the room. They're very good at reading the room and being who others need them to be, but they can deceive themselves into believing that they're only the image that they put forth for other people to see. So their identity becomes more about what they do instead of who they are. So their core longing is to be loved and valued simply for who they are. Type four is known as the romantic individualist. They are authentic and creative, very expressive. They're empathetic, and they tend to embrace a wide range of emotions. They are our deep feelers. They fear being inadequate or emotionally cut off, mundane, flawed, or defective. Their core desire is to be unique, special, and authentic. Their core weakness is envy. They feel that they have a fatal flaw that others don't have, and so they envy what others seem to have that they feel that they're missing. Their core longing is to be seen and loved for exactly who they are, which is special and unique. They really have a superpower as being in tune to other people's feelings and being able to sit in deep lament and emotions without feeling the need to be a fixer. So they can be very comforting and such an asset to the field of nursing. The type fives are investigative thinkers. They have an insatiable curiosity, thirst for knowledge. They are objective, practical, and good decision makers. Their core fear is in being invaded. They can experience the world as intrusive. And one of the ways that we describe a type five is if you wake up each day, if you think of your emotional battery or your social battery as being your phone battery, as being 100% charged when you wake up in the morning, and how that gets depleted as you go through the day, type five feel that their social battery starts at about 30%. So they can serve their energy, and so they can appear to be a little bit more withdrawn and in their heads. They love the world of thinking, and so they can definitely be perceived. And oftentimes are more introverted. So they fear being invaded upon or having their energy depleted or thought of as incapable or ignorant. Their core desire is being knowledgeable, capable, competent. Their core weakness is greed. And we also refer to that as avarice. And it's in feeling that there's not enough that they're lacking in resources, and they may withhold themselves or their resources or their information for fear of catastrophic depletion. And their core longing is to hear that their needs are not a problem. They feel different from others because they feel that they have that limited social battery. Their superpower is attentiveness and ability to acquire knowledge. I refer to fives as our proverbial engineers. They love to take things apart and put them back together again and to really understand how things work and why they work the way that they do. They, as I said, can experience the world as intrusive and overwhelming. So sometimes they will withdraw to recharge. And so, you know, we may perceive that as withdrawing from us, when really they're perceiving that they need to get that battery recharged. Type sixes, they're loyal guardians. They are dutiful and hardworking. They prefer, typically prefer collaboration and teamwork. They focus on the common good. As the type one has an inner critic, the type six has an inner committee. So as opposed to having this berating voice that's pointing out the things that are wrong, the inner committee is always working in the background of the type six's mind and they're giving scenarios. So type six is always scanning the horizon for potential problems that may need to be prevented. So their core fear is in being without support, security or guidance. They fear being blamed, targeted, alone or physically abandoned. Their core desire is security, external support and guidance from trusted advisors. Sixes will often look outside themselves for trusted advisors. They do not trust easily, but once you have their trust, they are very loyal and they sometimes will second guess themselves and look to others for that support. So their core weakness is anxiety because they are always scanning the horizon and potentially trying to head off worst-case scenarios that can leave them in a state of apprehension. And, you know, their core longing is to hear that they're safe and secure. And ironically, the superpower of the type six is their courage. Oftentimes the world will not necessarily experience that anxiety and apprehension that's in the background, and sometimes they will. But for the most part, sixes show up very courageously in spite of that. So they will oftentimes be excellent troubleshooters because they've already thought of those scenarios, they've played those through in their minds, but they can also, if they're not very careful, be the person on the team, who looks like they're shooting down the ideas because in their mind they're thinking, what about this? What about this? Have you thought about this? So if they verbalize those potential scenarios that are going on in their mind, they can be perceived as pessimistic. Where others might perceive them as others would perceive them as pessimistic, they would describe themselves as being realistic. So that's my type. And so I really had to work on that of when to speak, what might be a valid concern and when to hold that a little bit longer, because oftentimes they just spend a lot of energy solving problems that never can. So an example of that is I have probably run a code on the way to my shift every day just to make sure that I remember my ACLS. And so it can be very exhausting if you don't know how to navigate that. They can definitely be lead to indecisiveness because they are so in their heads that they're overthinking the scenarios. So the type seven s are the life of the party. They're known as the entertaining optimism. They're joyful, fun-loving, optimistic and energetic. They tend to see endless possibilities and innovation all around them. Sevens do not see failure. They see it as a new opportunity. So they are just, you know, phenomenal to work with because sometimes healthcare can be so heavy and they bring light and joy and energy to the department. Their core fear is being deprived, trapped in emotional pain, limited or bored. They desire to be content, satisfied and happy. Their core weakness is gluttony. But that is not like, it's not necessarily food. It's an insatiable desire to fill themselves up with fun experiences or activities. Sevens are described as having a bucket that they're filling, but their bucket has holes in it. And so they're continually trying to get that bucket filled with enjoyable experiences and things like that. But the bucket never actually gets filled because it has these holes. So they have a core longing to hear that they will be taken care of. Their superpower is that they can take any tedious activity and turn it into something fun. And they can reframe negative situations into positives and help others see the bright side. They can have difficulty with their own painful feelings. So they are very supportive of others, but they do not like to sit in their own feelings and they tend to avoid that unless they're aware. Type eights are our protective challengers. These folks are intense and they engage in with confidence, strength, and determination. They can come across as very intimidating. These are strong personalities, but in reality they tend to be very tender on the side. Their core fear is being vulnerable, weak or powerless. They tend to have a fear of being manipulated or left at the mercy of injustice. They desire to keep themselves and those they love safe and protected. Their core weakness is lust or excess. And that's in the sense that they desire an intensity, control and power. They are. Their core longing is to hear that they will not be betrayed. They have a superpower of just refusing to give in to social convention. They appear fearless, and they really often are our folks, our leaders that pave a way for other people, and they often are our leaders. They see the big picture. They tend to be very straightforward thinkers and straightforward in their communication, and they really expect other people to be as well. So they don't have a lot of patience with ambiguity or one of their ways that they can, that they can grow is in being more patient with those who don't process quite as quickly and make decisions quite as quickly as they do. Type nine, last, definitely not least, these are our peaceful mediators. They're easygoing and calm and accommodating. They're nonjudgmental. They are our peacemakers, and they bring such a sweet, calm environment to our teams and our nursing units. This is the co-worker that I was describing to you that has. Was there that I trained when I left for maternity leave is still there, and her coworkers just describe her as always, bringing the calm, just peaceful demeanor to an atmosphere, to our department. They do fear, tension or discord, and so they will sometimes avoid conflict to a fault. Their core desire is having inner stability and peace of mind. Their core weakness is referred to as slothfulness, but it's not laziness. It's more a desire to have inner peace and stability. So they will almost remain in this idealistic world to keep from being bothered or having to deal with conflict. So they really desire to keep a state of peace. And they often will avoid inserting their opinion or their help unless they're invited, because they feel that their presence is not as valuable as others. So their core longing is to hear that their presence matters. They're great mediators because they have a gift of seeing all sides of the situation. So when they find their voice and are willing to use it, they can really bring harmony to the team, but they often will go along to get along as opposed to inserting their opinion. And so as they merge with others, they tend to lose themselves in the process. So oftentimes with a nine, you may, as you try to determine what their desires are, they have this feeling of inner fog that they don't really know because they've merged so much with other folks that they've lost what their true desires are along the way. So that gives you just, like, a quick breakdown of what the core motivations are of each type. I know that was a lot in a short period of time, but I do have just, like, one sheet on my social media, in my links, and on my Instagram and Facebook that you can go to and just see all of that description on one page to kind of be able to compare those core motivations, because, like I say, we all have the desire to have a lot of those things. So we really have to kind of tease out what describes us the very best as opposed to, you know, the other eight.

[40:46] Michelle: Well, you did an absolutely fantastic job of kind of delineating all of those different personality types. And again, I'm just fascinated. And I saw so much of myself in seven. Maybe that's because I want to be that type of personality, and I'm not. And also nine. I really resonated so much with nine. And from what I understand of the enneagram, like, there are wings. So maybe I'm also a little bit like a one and a four. But how does that work? And if I wanted to be more like a seven, is that something that. Does your Enneagram ever change? Like, can you change it?

[41:41] Gwen: It is not thought that our core type changes. I will say that there are a couple of things that I want to point out from what you just said. I will say that when twos, sevens, and nines test, those are usually in their top three scores. It's very common because a lot of those traits are similar. It is not thought that our core motivation changes. But as you just described, wings. And then you also described. Let me address wings first. If you are a type two, your wings are on either side of you. Okay? So you could utilize attributes of type one and type three, as some people you will hear refer to. They might say, I'm a two-wing three. And what that means is that they tend to pick up more of those tendencies from type three. But bear in mind that you have access to both of those wings. And it's really. We refer to that more like salt and pepper, so you don't become those numbers. But the attributes of those numbers enhance the flavor of your number. And so my coach tends to say, if you are too heavy on one wing, you're gonna be flying in circles. So the, you know, the. The goal is to be balanced on both of those sides. I tend to pick up more of the five wings in certain situations, in the seven wing in other situations. There's also a theory that we add our less dominant wing in the second half of our life. And so there are different opinions on that. But my opinion is that the more balanced you can be and the more that you can, you have access to all these healthy attributes. It's just awareness and vocabulary around what those are. So the other thing that you want to think about, and this is where I was talking about getting into layers of more and more information, but we tend to move to pick up attributes of other numbers when we are in strength and when we are struggling. So, for example, a type six tends to move toward type three, and they can pick up the negative attributes are the less healthy attributes of the type three. When they're under stress, when they're at their best, they pick up some of the attributes of the type nine, and the type nine is more, you know, more peaceful, laid back, easygoing. So some of that anxiety of the six can kind of settle, and they're less likely to be constantly scanning the horizon and thinking of those worst-case scenarios. They're able to be multiple, peaceful. The very best of that situation or of utilizing those numbers, are when you are able to do your own inner work and pick up the positive attributes of both the nine and the three. And then, you know, you have access to your wings as well. And so one of my coaches likes to say that, you know, I've heard people say that they don't want to be put in a box of a specific personality type. And we like to say that if you're. You're not being put into a box, you're being shown the tools that you already have to take you out of the box that you're in. So those typical behaviors and motivations that you have as your core number, you have lots of tools in your toolbox to be able to pick up those strengths of all of those numbers that I just referred to. So it really is helpful not only in doing your own work, but in being able to verbalize that to someone else. So, for my husband to understand that he's a type three. And I thought you were talking about growing up as, you know, in alcoholism with parents. I had quite a bit of trauma as a child and as a teenager. And oftentimes, I would think that I would go to these worst case scenarios because of trauma or because of what I've seen as a nurse. But I would feel that I was creating frustration in other people or that they would think, why do you always go to the worst-case scenario? So, it felt like something that was broken within me, even though I felt healthy, and I felt like I had worked through all of that trauma in counseling. But then I heard someone describe on a podcast as a type six that that's how they think. And it doesn't have to be in an unhealthy way. Like, when going through worst-case scenarios, I'm not typically anxious. I just have to start there and then work my way back. If I run that code in my mind, okay, I've done that. I know ACLS, we're going to move along, and if that happens to come up in this day, I'm prepared. So it's not a state of constant worry, or I visualize somebody walking around wringing their hands, and that's not the way that it is. So when I was able to explain that to my husband, it had just helped us have so much more empathy for each other and for him to understand that I wasn't constantly shooting down his ideas. Like, the goal of the six is to collaborate and to help a project be successful. But we don't always know how to communicate that unless we understand how we're being perceived by other people. So does that kind of help explain how we have the other numbers in our toolbox and certainly have access to all those positive attributes, but we do need to be aware of whether we're using those and ways to be more intentional at using those tools.

[48:35] Michelle: Yeah, again, it's just, it's blowing my mind because, you know, I think back in my nursing history and there's so many personalities that are, like, popping out to me of, you know, working with certain charge nurses. You know, I was always the one on the unit that is very calm and, you know, people would say, your voice is so calming, and you just bring this calm presence whenever there's chaos. You know, everyone just kind of comes down and then there's those people that. And my sister knows because I call her this all the time, but, you know, long time labor and delivery nurse, and then she did flight nursing. But she was the black cloud, right? That we all have worked with one of those people, and through no really faults of themselves, it's like chaos kind of follows them wherever they go. And when you walk on the unit and you see the black cloud and you're like, oh, no, it's just going to be a bad day. And then alternately, when they walked on the unit and they would see me, they would be like, oh, okay, everything's cool. So I see so much of my personality and other nurses and health professionals that I've worked with over the years. And wouldn't it be amazing if we could all do, you know, as we enter healthcare, maybe do our enneagram and, like, have that somewhere in our file or wear a badge that says I'm a seven?  And do we gravitate to two different personality types, maybe that we aspire to be or that we could absorb some of their energy? How does that work?

[50:35] Gwen: I think we do, but I think probably, I think it can go both ways. You know, we can. Sometimes we can feed off of each other in unhealthy, but I find for myself it's individual, certainly individualized based on, you know what you're looking for. I definitely tend to gravitate. Gravitate toward type nine. That's my strength. Number and type sevens pull me toward my seven wings. I am so much more adventurous when I'm with my type seven friends. Just, it. It's almost like I'm just able to lay my anxiety at the door and join them where they are. But at the same time, I do want to say we have to be careful because it can be easy once we know someone's tight. I would caution folks to not. We say not to use the enneagram as a sword or a shield. So we would never use it as a shield to say, well, I'm a type six. That's just the way that I am. And, you know, other people just need to deal with that. You know, type eight, that could be a. Well, any type could. Could use it as a shield, but also as a sword. We never want to say, you know, you're being such a type six right now because people do not want to wear labels, and so. And understandably so, because we're all growing and. And, you know, hopefully none of us are the same human that we were six months ago, much less, you know, 20 years ago. So it is such a helpful tool to be able to hold more empathy for each other. And so I would just encourage that, that it would be used as not only empathy for each other, but for ourselves. We tend to be so much harder on ourselves even than other folks are. And so I think it's just. It's been very helpful. It's been very helpful for me as a parent. I so wish that. Exactly what you just said. I wish that I had graduated from nursing school with this knowledge. And one of my heart's desires is to be in front of nursing classes so that I can, you know, we talk about just the state of. Of the nursing field right now, and I so long for us to be healthy and for us to be able to do preventive maintenance so that we don't find ourselves at burnout. There's a lot of work to be done there and a lot of counseling to be done there. And it's certainly, you know, I think we talked briefly about the role of coaching versus counseling, and coaching is never meant to take the role of counseling, but we know that prevention is the best medicine, and if we can be aware of how we move in this world and how we operate, it can just help us to be. To be able to thrive in the role that we're passionate about as a you know, a new critical care nurse. Had I understood my tendency to overthink and my tendency to desire collaboration, that would have been very helpful for me. It also describes why I thrived in the role of cardiac rehab nurse on a team that worked very well together because, you know, that's just something that type sixes enjoy. There are other members that don't enjoy teamwork as much as they do independent work. And so there are just a lot of ways that it could have helped me as a new nurse and as a parent and as a wife. And so, you know, using what I know, when we know better, we can do better. And so we like to say that, you know, it, our stack point doesn't need to be our start. Our starting point doesn't need to be our stuck point. And so, yeah, I would love to be able to, for all nurses to be able to have this knowledge and these tools and their tool belt, just to be able to bring their healthiest self to their team, to create healthy teams.

[55:18] Michelle: Yeah, I think it would be so beneficial. And, you know, I think to your point about, you know, we so being aware of our enneagram personality, it's great because we can grow, we can be aware of our strengths and go, yeah, that's me. I feel pride that I'm strong in this area, but this other area I really have to watch out for because I will just wear myself out. And especially in nursing and when we talk about burnout and everything, those things can only benefit us. And, you know, earlier when you referred to yourself, you know, as on the way to work, running a code in your head, you know, Gwen, I want someone like you on my team because I know you're going to be prepared. And when that code comes, like, you are going to rock it because you have, you have rehearsed it so much. But then on the other side, I see, oh, man, that must be really exhausting to kind of have to go through that all the time in your head. So there's just the yin and yang, right? And what you aim for is the balance constantly. And I do like how you delineated the difference between coaching and counseling. Like you said, they're different. One doesn't replace the other. And we've learned that so much from, you know, post-pandemic mental health and focusing on that, but also focusing on coaching because we need to know who we are and what our strong points are and where we need to kind of beef up things that we do. So thank you so much for that. So one of the things that I was really curious about when I was reading your bio, you talk about being a woman of God, and I was thinking, how does she connect Christianity to the enneagram? But then when I started reading about the Enneagram personality, it has sort of a spiritual base to it, and it's commonly presented as a path to states of enlightenment. So just kind of elaborate on that.

[57:53] Gwen: Sure. So for me, as I researched and, you know, did my, my background work, what I've learned is that the Enneagram has really been studied more strongly since the fifties around, in, in the psychology world. And in about the nineties, Suzanne Stabil came onto the scene and really started doing some more specific work from the lens, the Christian perspective. Now, the organizations that I have gotten my certification from, are Christian. So the Enneagram itself is not a Christian tool. As a Christian, I take everything I do through the lens of God and through the lens of scripture. So for me, what I have discovered is there are lots of people who use the Enneagram who are not Christians. And it can be very helpful for, it is especially helpful for me as a Christian. Not that it in any way replaces my core, you know, faith. Everything that I do goes through the lens of God first and through the lens of the gospel. But it does enhance my faith because I'm able to, like I described earlier, able to. When I see the areas that I'm struggling in, then I'm able to take those areas back to God in prayer and back to where I am not trusting in him in the way that I feel that I should be from my perspective, from my faith. So it is really enhanced my faith and enhance my relationship with God, but it is not specifically a Christian tool. Does that answer your question?

[01:00:12] Michelle: Yes. Yes, it does. And the other thing that it's really commonly used for is it's used in business because there's so many principles that are based on, you know, business principles that are really based on your personality or that, that come from your personality. So two, two really fascinating things there, and thank you for speaking to that. So with your coaching business, Enneagram with Gwen, what kind of clients do you work with?

[01:00:45] Gwen: So predominantly I coach women. I have, up until this point, have coached, you know, basically women in different seasons of life. I am an empty nester. So I tend to, you know, my circle tends to be anywhere from, you know, 20-year-old women to, well, I guess it just runs the gamut. So I coach women, and basically my, you know, my goal is just to create a safe space for women to process and to go through and process those challenging seasons in the best way possible. Really enjoy coaching nurses because we speak the same language. And, you know, I'm not limited to coaching nurses, but it's really enjoyable for me when I can coach nurses because I feel like even though we've all sat in such varied roles, we still have a common language and a common heart as nurses, you know, to be able to empathize with where we are and where we've been and hopefully where we're going.

[01:02:05] Michelle: Yes, I could definitely see how nurses and other health professionals could benefit from your coaching. So you kind of touched on this a little bit, but how do you use the Enneagram in your life?

[01:02:22] Gwen: Well, I typically just, you know, like I say, I, self-awareness has been something that has been taken some work for me because my, even when we're in our heads all day long, we're not necessarily using thinking in a productive way. And so it's been really helpful for me to step back and look at the, through the lens of, you know, why are you really upset about this situation or why are you really processing this in this way? What, what is, what's going on under the surface? And I haven't always understood how to do that or the need to do that. And so, yeah, on a personal level, I would say, you know, being able to just take the time to tease those things out has been helpful. But in my relationships, as I said earlier, it has just been so helpful for me to better understand how my kids process and how they process so much differently than me. And then, you know, also just as a leader and as a wife and in my faith community, it comes up on a regular basis, you know, how we can, that our self-awareness can take us from where we are to where we want to be. So I would say that that, you know, I use it on a daily basis, but again, not as an excuse to stay where I am. This is a way of hopefully growing deeper in my relationships with other people and especially in my relationship with God.

[01:04:21] Michelle: I feel like this is a tool that could be used in all areas of your life. And, you know, like you said, as a wife, as a mother and as a nurse, definitely there are things that we get into. Like, you know, I will say, you know, part of my number two is really my core desire is to feel appreciated. And so I could see how I could get taken advantage of that a little bit. And I did because, you know, during the times of, you know, short staffing, I guess. You know, my institution was like, hey, we need you and twos, man. When somebody needs me, I will put my own needs on the back burner and I will be there for them. And not really good. It led to a lot of working overtime and not taking care of myself in other ways. And, you know, my listeners know my breast cancer journey. And I really feel like the couple of years that I worked so much overtime and I was so exhausted, I can't help but thinking that that contributed to the breast cancer. So we'll never know that. But what it did for me is it really, it was a wake up call. Like, hey, you are the cliche. You can't pour from an empty cup. Put your oxygen mask on first, those things that you referred to in the beginning. So I think being aware of your personality type and how you can go down those wrong paths that lead to so much exhaustion and sickness and all of that, being aware of that is just so, so beneficial. And now I'm just, like, excited to go find out what my loved one's enneagram is. And it's really exciting because I think nurses in particular are, are really big proponents of self-growth. Right. It's like we are always trying to do better, to be better and to recognize the things within us that we love and the things that we want to work on. So again, I think it's so beneficial. Well, as we wrap up, Gwen, go through what kind of services you offer with your coaching business, and then you also have a surprise for our guests today. So mention that as well.

[01:07:24] Gwen: Absolutely. So some of the things that I offer are most coaches, you will find will offer a free, that's, we call it a discovery call. So that is just a free call where I would do a Zoom meeting and get to know a potential client better to discern if they are a good fit for me, if I'm a good fit for them, and if they would be a. A good fit for coaching or, you know, whether they should start with counseling. So that free initial call is where we start. I also offer typing sessions for folks who just are not really sure they've taken a test, but they just don't really know for sure and are not able to land on a specific type. There are ways to tease that out. You know, differences between, like, for example, you said the two, seven and nine. Often it takes a little bit deeper digging to determine those types. So offer just a standalone session to help folks discern their type. And then I also offer one-on-one coaching packages and we do that via Zoom. And I have a couple of different types of packages available. One is more basic, Enneagram-based, like Enneagram knowledge based on your type. And then that's a five-session package. And then I offer a twelve-session package that could be broken down into six-session packages as well. But it's more of a wholehearted. It is Enneagram coaching, but it also includes some story work. It's more inclusive of life coaching in general. So those are my coaching packages. I am in the process of building some nursing cohorts and I'm so excited about that. Where if someone not quite ready to do one-on-one coaching, they might enjoy doing a group session where we say five nurses are in a cohort and we zoom together, still doing life coaching with the Enneagram, but in a group setting. And then I also offer something called Party with a Purpose and that Enneagram, like that's ladies night. So I do that more in person with girlfriends. Or we can do via Zoom as well. But where girlfriends get together and learn about the Enneagram. And that's just a, you know, one party called Party with a Purpose. Business and leadership training. I have a presentation, like I said earlier, for that, and that focuses on communication style and decision making. We also use the Enneagram, but we dig more deeply into communication on teams and things like that. So those are some of the services that I offer. If you look on, I know you're putting my social media in your show notes, but on Enneagram with Gwen on Instagram and Facebook, there is a link to my calendar. And on that link it gives you my pricing, my packages, all the information there that you need to book a discovery call or, you know, to gain more information from that. And then also that one sheet is right there in the link that gives you the breakdown of the descriptions at all of the nontypes. Oh, and then last thing. Yes, she said, oh, I did want to mention that when you look at the packages, if anyone is interested in the coaching packages, for anyone who mentions your show, I will gift an additional coaching session for free.

[01:11:16] Michelle: That is so sweet. I absolutely love it. And those sound so fun, especially the nursing cohort. Like, can you imagine going into, you know, a nursing school or just maybe a unit wants to see what they're all about and get together and then like that? That would be so, so much fun. I love it. Well, sweet. Yes. And I will put all of those links in the show notes for everybody to find you. And I started asking this question. Oh, a couple months ago, and you may feel on the spot, and if you do, it's totally fine to say, I don't know. I will get back to you on that. But is there someone that you recommend as a guest on this podcast Gwen?

[01:12:07] Gwen: Well, lately I have enjoyed Kelsey Rowell on Whole Life Nurse. Are you familiar with her?

[01:12:16] Michelle: I have seen her, yes.

[01:12:17] Gwen: I found her on Instagram. She just recently started a podcast, and she is more about helping nurses just really be the CEO of their license and determine if, you know, they are, how that they can best use their nursing license, whether it be at the bedside or whether it be away from the bedside. And then also for nurses who are interested in having a side gig or starting their own business. So she's very interesting. I enjoyed listening to her as well from a nursing perspective. Also, you know, I'm not sure if you have other folks on from time to time who are. Who are not nurses. Amy Wicks has a podcast called Simply Wholehearted, and she is one of the ladies that coaches me and that has done my certification, and she's got an amazing podcast. If you want to learn more about the enneagram that is called simply wholeheartedly, that's wonderful.

[01:13:17] Michelle: I will look into those. One of my guests, Gaby Morales, my ACE expert, adverse childhood experiences nurse, challenged me to have more nonnurses on, and I absolutely love that. So, yes, I'm currently looking for other disciplines other than nurses that may complement nurses or the health profession. But those great suggestions. Thank you so much. And thank you, Gwen, for coming on and talking all about the Enneagram. I have learned so much. Now I want to, like I said, just find out more about, you know, I love the, like you said, the two seven and nine and the wings and all of that. So it's just been very enlightening, and I really appreciate it, and I've absolutely loved listening to your southern voice.

[01:14:24] Gwen: Well, thank you. I really appreciate you having me on, and it's just been so fun. I could nerd out on the Enneagram all day, so it's been a pleasure.

[01:14:34] Michelle: Right? We're just big nerds. That's what we are. We're just, um.  Yeah, we're just older nerds. Well, we're at the end, so we're ready for the five-minute snippet. It's just a bunch of fun. Are you ready?

[01:14:50] Gwen: I think I am.

[01:14:53] Michelle: Okay. I will set the timer, and we will just go. Would you rather have the power to control fire or water?

[01:15:44] Gwen: Fire. I'm terrified of fire, so, yes, fire.

[01:15:48] Michelle: Imagine a world without any form of technology. How do you think human civilization would be different?

[01:15:59] Gwen: Their relationships would be deeper. Really enjoy technology in terms of being able to keep up with my people that especially my family members that live far away. But I do think that that technology keeps us from being as present in the room. So I think, yeah, I think our closest relationships would definitely be deeper. But I love technology.

[01:16:24] Michelle: Yeah, I have to agree with you there. It's just that double-edged sword, right? We use it for so many things, and then it can also be a barrier to just human connection. So, okay, if you could turn into any fruit for a day, which fruit would you be and why?

[01:16:47] Gwen: Let me think about that. I'm trying to think of what the most versatile fruit is. Maybe an apple. Because it's versatile. It can be like it's good under pressure, under heat. Like you can do all these different things with it and it's still good. I don't know. That's a hard one for me.

[01:17:10] Michelle: I love it. There's no right answer. And I love your reasoning. I was going to say maybe for nurses, an apple a day keeps the doctor away.

[01:17:20] Gwen: There you go.

[01:17:21] Michelle: Right. Okay. Let's see. If you could change one event in history, what would it be and how might it alter the present? That's a deep one.

[01:17:35] Gwen: Oh, it is. But I really think that I would have COVID had never happened. I may not have given long enough to think about that. But that's the thing that comes to the top of my mind right now because it is just. It's been a lot. We lost a lot of people we loved.

[01:17:58] Michelle: You said it. Yes. Devastating in so many, so many different ways. Devastating for just people in general. And then, of course, the people in our profession, we're still traumatized.

[01:18:13] Gwen: Absolutely.

[01:18:14] Michelle: I totally agree. Would you rather be able to rewind time by 1 hour once a day or be able to see into the future one week ahead?

[01:18:28] Gwen: Oh, see into the future. I could prevent all kinds of things.

[01:18:33] Michelle: Yeah. Love it. Okay. I see the wheels turning in your head. That's right. If you woke up one morning and found out you had grown a tail overnight, how would you use it throughout the day?

[01:18:52] Gwen: I'm trying to think how to say this in a, in a way that is acceptable. I don't know. I'm really not sure what purpose that would serve. So I think I would just have to playfully, you know what? Swat people with it on my way by them. I don't know. What would you use a tail for?

[01:19:14] Michelle: I love it. I was picturing that, like, you would just, like, slap people with it.

[01:19:20] Gwen: Just play.

[01:19:21] Michelle: These are so silly. Okay, last one. Let's see. If you could invent a new holiday, what would it be called and what silly traditions would it involve?

[01:19:35] Gwen: Oh, my goodness, Michelle. I am not that creative. New holiday.

[01:19:45] Michelle: These are hard.

[01:19:47] Gwen: They are hard. I think I'm gonna have to take a pass on that one. Everything I think of, we already do. Like, I think we all need to have, you know, days of rest every week. That's why we're called to have a sabbath. But that's, that's all that comes to my mind, is just how we go, go, go so much. And, and we just often don't take the time to take time to rest and, and refuel. But I don't know exactly what that holiday would be called because we actually should be doing that weekly.

[01:20:21] Michelle: I agree. It would be the Gwen Sledge day of rest.

[01:20:25] Gwen: There you go. That sounds great.

[01:20:30] Michelle: This has been so much fun, Gwen. I've learned so much, and I appreciate you sharing all of your deep knowledge and understanding of the enneagram with our listeners today.

[01:20:42] Gwen: Thank you so much for having me. I really have enjoyed our time together and just hopefully look forward to keeping you in touch.

[01:20:52] Michelle: I would love to stay connected. Yes. Thank you so much. You have a great rest of your day.

[01:20:58] Gwen: You too, Michelle.