What the F**k?
After scrapping their Deeply Neglected podcast miniseries called "Dr. bird’s eye view", Dr. bird now presents to you: this new random guest podcast called “What the F**k?”. What the F**k? is an extension of Dr. bird's newest book We Are F**king Machines: Why We Are Like This and What We Can Do About It. They will be hosting TikTok lives with random guests, and asking them critical media ecological (artistic, activist, academic) probing questions about our Limited Intelligence, Environmental Intelligence, Relational Intelligence, and the Algorithmic Envirusment (environment + virus), taking an ecological audit of what is going well for us and what we need to fundamentally change in pursuit of liberation for all.
What the F**k?
Injustice, Community, & COVID-19
In this episode I chat with my long time mutual Torii about experiences of injustice, community, and how that's changed (for better for worse) since COVID-19 started.
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Some Links and Resources Mentioned Herein (in no particular order):
- Dr. bird's newest book We Are F**king Machines detailing the envirusment
- Dr. bird's Requirement Politics article about early AOL experiences, etc.
- Dr. bird's book chapter about the #metoo campaign aftermath
- farcaster.xyz (not dot com)
- Ronald Purser's book McMindfulness
- https://farcaster.xyz/torii-stories
- Mullaney, Peters, Hicks & Philip's book Your Computer is On Fire
- https://www.youtube.com/@nononsensespirituality -- Nihilism (same name on TikTok)
- https://meshtastic.org/
- Dr. bird's SubStack mini series "The Context" about Kirk's legacy of hate
- https://themultiverse.school/x/cyberpony - a group of people working with meshtastic and community gardens and keeping people connected and informed.
- Harriet A. Washington's Medical Apartheid
- Dr. bird's Car as extension of whiteness article about color-paved racisms
- https://www.tiktok.com/@jonjon.jpeg -- building for living rather than for cars. road safety. urban design concepts
- Types of ableist language and what to say instead
- Dr. bird's memoirs where they talk bout their pre- and present-COVID-19 life
To support this broadcast become a free or paid subscriber to Dr. bird's SubStack.
There is also a pre-production behind-the-scenes listen available on their Patreon.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:00:03,890 ]Hello and welcome to “What the F**k?”. I am your host, Dr. Bernadette "bird" Bowen, or Dr. bird for short. This is the only random guest podcast with two stars in it because we talk about what it is that "u" (meant like: you) "c" (meant like: see) is *going well and *needs to change.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:00:21,560 ] Today we have Torii. my wonderful guests for episode one. And we'll be talking about.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:00:30,520 ] personal injustices, community.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:00:33,090 ] and C-19.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:00:35,100 ] Before we get into that and learn a little bit about who Torii is, I'm very excited to talk to you because we already had like a really enthralling conversation for like, I don't know, probably like an hour.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:00:45,059 ] In the green room, I'll give you a little idea, not as in-depth as my introduction that I posted to Buzzsprout already a couple days ago about who I am, like 7 minutes and 30 seconds in-depth if anyone's curious. Both listeners or potential guests in the future. But I'll give you a little rundown of who I am just so you can. Hear a little bit about that before you learn about Torii and learn from each other. So, like I said, my name is Dr. bird. I'm a 35-year-old non-binary, neuroqueer, critical media ecologist, author, poet, content creator, and podcaster. As a result of my lived experiences and more, I am now an anti-colonial, anti-capitalist, anti-eugenic, and anti-fascist author, poet, content creator, and podcaster who shares information freely with the most connected humanity to ever exist in human history, because I know that we all deserve better than what I've lived and lived. And what I know others have and continue to live. I've seen and lived both the benefits and failures.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:01:46,490 ] of our traditional ideas of authority, intelligence, and knowledge. And I know that it's time we expand them in pursuit of liberation for all. This is why my three critical media ecological tenants are: we only know what we know, everything becomes normal in repetition and everything is connected. and why I started this random guest podcast so that I can have conversations with everyday people about our lived experiences, showcasing them as forms of knowledge. When understood in tandem or contrast with my lived experiences and timely and timeless research expertise. I talked about all of this at length in my newest book, We Are F**king Machines: Why We Are Like This and What We Can Do About It. And at the end of that, I listed a series of probing questions that I also provided the complete list of within the preview episode of this podcast. Now I invited Torii on my show today. So that we can broadly talk about what you see is going well and what needs to fundamentally change, by asking you some of those questions and having an honest, raw, and contextualized conversation.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:02:46,180 ] So with that said, Torii.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:02:48,530 ] Who are you?
DR. BIRD
[ 00:02:50,150 ] How would you describe yourself?
TORII
[ 00:02:52,810 ] Um, I am a multifaceted, I guess.
TORII
[ 00:02:57,670 ] artist but I'm more of like a artist and communicator. Uh, I'm a mom from Ohio. I had two young girls. Who I'm helping navigate this, you know.
TORII
[ 00:03:12,000 ] And then I Yeah, I'm really into community and helping people.
TORII
[ 00:03:18,370 ] just stand in their own being.
TORII
[ 00:03:22,060 ] and feel safe in presenting how they want to.
TORII
[ 00:03:28,910 ] show up in the world.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:03:31,150 ] I know. And from what we talked about, like you're doing an incredible job just to reiterate for anyone. wasn't here on the TikTok live before we got started. Like you're doing a bunch of incredible stuff. I know. And I love that, like you said, you started with like a very unlikely degree, you said. And did I hear you right? Was it mechanical engineering? Yes. I love that, like, because like you said, with your diverse sort of projects that you've worked on simultaneously in ways that are inherently anti-capitalist, like typewriting, typewriter repairing. And like native plant restoration and allowing people to have a recording of speeches of winter sowing.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:04:10,450 ] Like helping, like you're doing a lot of really cool stuff alongside of baking on weekends and I I think that I love that like you just said like you're allowing people to like appreciate in a new way this work that is oftentimes under Like it's under the surface of. allowing communities to exist and it's the inherent it's the care work that is the most important if you ask me because it allows us to exist within community and value our own like care work in it in ways that the society often undervalues so I love what you're doing and I think it's really important.
TORII
[ 00:04:42,200 ] Thank you. I really miss my. Actual gardening now it's the winter time you know the ground is frozen and, really, the only things we will be doing this soon, some invasive work, because.
TORII
[ 00:04:55,050 ] You know we've got to knock back some of the invasives, but and you can do that. We'll probably do some controlled burns.
TORII
[ 00:05:02,410 ] and some hack and slash. Get all bundled up so we don't like if it's poison ivy or something. Usher. But I really, we talked about this before, I enjoy the physical tangibility of typewriters, but also I enjoy things like community work and visual. I went to school after graphic design. I mean, thank you. mechanical engineering for graphic design.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:05:30,830 ] Yeah, for sure.
TORII
[ 00:05:32,030 ] Yeah. And like I said, I didn't get my degree because I I was going to classes. Learning and loving it. But then feeling a disconnect because, then, I got a job.
TORII
[ 00:05:45,440 ] In the e-learning lab where we were.
TORII
[ 00:05:48,890 ] Kind of doing some of the similar stuff I'm doing now, but like doing community work, but for classrooms, you know? Yeah, totally. For online classes. And I was doing the visuals for that and a lot of the tech. And then I was like, you know what? I think I want to do this and not mechanical. So that's when I.
TORII
[ 00:06:06,000 ] I switched. And then I lived, this— I didn't say backstage, but I did moderation for 10 years before I got fully into graphic design. But I was a moderator for Nickelodeon and Teen Nick. Are you serious? Part of my background, I've ever heard Yeah.
TORII
[ 00:06:25,270 ] I was like, basically, I was a teenage babysitter for, um, a bunch of teenagers who would go in chat rooms on thein, the in . com, which was the Teenage Nickelodeon. Yeah, yeah, totally. And I had to babysit these teenagers.
TORII
[ 00:06:45,770 ] Cybersexing.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:06:47,340 ] I mean, fair enough. People, I mean, trust me, as one of those, because, I mean, we are basically the same age, but, like, I can imagine, like, because they were, what? They would probably be considered, like, they would be. Gen Z would imagine they are maybe something like I know. As a millennial born and raised at the internet, like the kind of shit that you probably saw, and a lot of my early work was about like the shit that I experienced as a millennial, like born and raised with the yeah, with earlier AOL Aim. I know that, obviously, like these days, obviously, we're seeing it with like fucking robots, blocks, and like, but they are people. Forget about that kind of that kind of internet experience of like it it just transitioned behind the scenes in these spaces that people may or may not be aware of, and like, yeah, that that was that's important work, it really is, like yeah, Yeah.
TORII
[ 00:07:34,120 ] We had like a keyword detector. With all kinds of words, that My friend David, he had made up, where it was like, if you see these words on the screen, they were highlighted in yellow. And it was just a script that you ran on your browser. And then it helped us spot out, you know. And then we had a direct line where we were. We would report people when we would figure out. Okay, this is the same kind of account that's phishing in a way. No shit, that's awesome. That would be disgusting, but you know. No, that's different.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:08:07,600 ] You're that's that's more important, like because honestly, that's the kind of stuff that, like, I have never known for sure if, like, there was connection to, like, any kind of helpline beyond, like, reporting stuff. So honestly, like, do you think that, that kind of stuff, is actually happening in behind the scenes in other, like, social media platforms these days? Because I almost feel like it's not. I almost feel like they're not appropriately addressing them.
TORII
[ 00:08:33,280 ] Yeah, I'm.
TORII
[ 00:08:35,309 ] And honestly, I've not seen it replicated like the way that we did it for Viacom.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:08:39,970 ] Yeah.
TORII
[ 00:08:40,669 ] I've not seen it.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:08:42,460 ] Yeah, if anyone that is either listening or, like, is more aware, because I'm always curious. I feel like that sounds like the way to do it is as uncontrollable as, like, you know, the quote. Unquote: Wild West of the Internet has been, and has been like, that's the kind of shit that, like, we really need to do. Because what I'm seeing time and time again is, like, these and influencers who are going around, and they're like, very, they're almost just repeating an episode of 'Cops,' do you know what I mean? And like, they're for good reason, like, they're capturing these predators, so to speak, or they're confronting them and, like, nothing happens, like, nothing, and they're just like, profiting it, almost gives me the same vibes as, like, soft white underbelly, who like, has turned out to be, like, a potentially allegedly very dangerous predator, who's like, preying on the same people that are experiencing substance abuse. And then they're not doing anything to help these people. And it's like, we just need it. As a society, we need to be better to people and we need to address the spaces where this predation happens so that it can end. And I love that you did that. I mean, I can imagine it was my foundation.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:09:43,360 ] I can imagine the emotional toll that it took to constantly be in that kind of space. That is, quite literally, it paired. The time of like, um, the early internet emerging into like the fullness of what it is today for better or for worse, but it like that's the kind of shit that like we need to see what has worked well and what can be changed. Because you actually already sort of answered and may or may not want to expand on it. Like my next question for you was, have you ever taken part in or experienced injustice that you try not to think about? And I feel like he's already kind of addressed that question, right?
TORII
[ 00:10:18,750 ] Yeah. Yeah, I definitely have. I have seen a lot of it and I do. I was picturing.
TORII
[ 00:10:25,500 ] Um, YouTube had moderators for a while. I got this job in like 2007.
TORII
[ 00:10:33,160 ] To about 2016.
TORII
[ 00:10:35,390 ] It was almost exactly 10 a decade. And I remember YouTube having a much. Uh, The turnover rate for YouTube moderators was awful because they were actually seeing.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:10:48,700 ] Yep. I heard that. Yep.
TORII
[ 00:10:50,440 ] awful things. No, for sure. Mine was text-based, which was nice. Or sun photos. Yay, Alton. But it wasn't your kids' thing.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:11:00,180 ] No, that makes total sense. Well, and I guess it's funny because even though I'm a millennial, and obviously we both are, I feel like I'm admittedly ignorant as hell about. About early YouTube, like in ways that most millennials and like Gen Z are like, way more familiar with, so like, for me, I didn't follow like any big YouTube influencers, but I did hear about the horror, like, because I mean, it's the same with obviously apps like this, I know that, like, I read an article to you during my PhD about, like, the just like trauma that that moderators are experiencing because of, just like, the horror of, like, what the world and, because again, as we talked about earlier, it's like, and as I'm always saying, like, these technologies, they can't reveal to us things that haven't already existed, but they absolutely accelerate. They expedite, they connect us for better or worse. Yeah, because that is a perfect, because it's taking the egg of a horrible pedophilia issue that has always been. Been here and it is heating it up and it is allowing it to be birthed into these other, like, mediated channels and that's why we have, like, everything from, like, the 70,000 men group chat to, like, just all of the other fuckery that people claim like is an isolated incident.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:12:10,500 ] Well, we know it's a larger social, socio-sexually violent ecology that's just like the foundation of the nation. So yeah.
TORII
[ 00:12:18,390 ] Well, you remember Onision?
DR. BIRD
[ 00:12:21,400 ] Okay, you know what's funny is that's actually one of the only YouTubers I would remember the name of. Yeah, I did follow Onision a little bit, but I like just the tiniest bit, like, for like some comedy content and stuff. I heard they came back and people try to chase them off the app, right?
TORII
[ 00:12:36,210 ] From what I remember. I think so, but there was also the— a whole added weirdness of the guy who did To Catch a Predator.
TORII
[ 00:12:47,820 ] And he came in a Herbian. Made a whole series about Onision, but then he himself was being weirdly shitty and bizarre. Oh, God. And it was a train wreck. And it was like. It felt like, I think, why the internet, and this is me, I was kind of tapped in. I was watching some of it and listening to some of it, but not fully. It reminds me of.
TORII
[ 00:13:13,200 ] this phenomenon of taking advantage of people or nurturing these systems, you don't just get the Onision's who are making the communities. You also get the to catch a predator guy who isn't actually it was revealed that he didn't really give a shit about catching a predator wow he just wanted to people to see him as the hero doing something he wanted to do this And then it was very clear. how much of an act all of this was.
TORII
[ 00:13:46,330 ] you know, wow. And it just feeds into that narrative of. I think the it is nurturing or festering this kind of person.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:13:59,090 ] No, that makes perfect. And that's really like and that makes so much sense, honestly, based off of like what I have observed myself, because that's really what I was getting at earlier with those creators, like those larger TikTok creators. And I mean, they're across all platforms, it seems like. And don't get me wrong. I'm sure some of them genuinely, I mean, think about like that new, I think they're probably Gen Z. They were like. Craydon on Roblox. Roblox is now very deliberately, like, didn't they send them a cease and desist for like catching like five or six predators and like kick them off the app? Like, if you continue to catch these predators, like, like, we are not like, it's like, we're going to sue you. And it's like, wow. Okay. So you are more invested in attacking a person who is attacking. The actual predators on your software than you are in stopping the predators who are obviously preying on countless children. And so it's like, in that kind of phenomena, it's like, it makes perfect sense to catch a predator, whatever the fuck his name is, I forget, but like, you know, that prominent guy. Isn't that great in the Navy? Yeah, yeah. I forget what his actual name is.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:15:00,770 ] I'm, like, the worst with names. But, yeah, you're totally right, I think. But, yeah, like, it makes sense.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:15:06,670 ] Because I even talked about this in my hashtag need to campaign aftermath article. Like this society, it births predators and then it throws them away once they become. A liability it is more it's more than happy to do that. It is not going to destroy the system itself that manufactures the predators. It is certainly not going to allow us to have the actual like. You know, because they're always like, it's trickle down. Just like all of capitalism is trickle down from the billionaire class or the high profile predators. Oh, it's going to trickle down. The justice is going to be given. To all of the victims and survivors of their like terror, but like no— it never actually happens that way, and it makes total sense, just like in the same way if you ask me, that you will see the um creators like from the TikTok debate lives who are basically just stirring up drama in the same way that like those old um like Jerry Springer and like that they're just an extension of Jerry Springer, like they're just utilizing the like drama and the volatility, and like to an extent, like a necessary like response to the the devastations of being in a society that divorces us from our bodies, makes
DR. BIRD
[ 00:16:18,140 ] our relationships violent, and makes our you know the it catalyzes the climate crisis as I'm always repeating, but like it's that same shit. It's that it's that it's extending something that isn't actually providing a collective solution, a systemic solution, it's an individual. solution that people are more than happy happy to drive clout from and a profit from, as long as it allows them to appear as the hero, and that shit pisses me the fuck off. That is, it's so deeply upsetting.
TORII
[ 00:16:45,480 ] This is performative.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:16:47,350 ] I know. Fuck that. Fuck. And that's all we need. Like, we need people that are doing it because they know that, like, we all need liberation for all. Like we need people. And that's it. It's just the epitome of what neoliberalism is. You know what I mean? And it sucks because it's like we we do need better representation. But to that end, like no one— that criticizes neoliberalism— would ever debate. That we don't need more representation. That we don't need, like, reform would be, even if we were aiming towards a complete revolutionary change and fundamental change of the systems. No person you're talking to, no socialist, no communist that knows fuck all would say, 'Oh yeah, reformism that you're advocating for would be a bad thing.' Along the way, it's that if you end there, that is not enough. That's what that's all anyone is saying, and it's like the and that's what usually divides, like any kind of community understanding or ability to be in community at all. So my next question for you, actually, is: are you a part of any communities? You already answered this question earlier, but like for folks that didn't hear us talking earlier.
TORII
[ 00:17:47,930 ] Yeah, and I'm in more than I have mentioned. I'm also in.
TORII
[ 00:17:52,820 ] I'm in, you know, the physical community here. I'm outside of Dayton, Ohio. Oh, yeah. So I'm in a very. diverse community here for the native plants. You know, with the bakery. Where it's physically located, the neighborhood. You get those people.
TORII
[ 00:18:13,620 ] I'm also into ham radio, so I'm in. Ham Radio Club. Yes. I just was there today. Actually, we're working. We change locations and I'm going to help them put all of the the wall] with all the pictures of our certificates and some of our memorabilia. That's so cool. And that stuff is important. But I'm also, and I want to come back to like that. [specific] thing but I'm also in some like decentralized web three parts because I believe that I believe that conservatives and Republicans and neo/liberals are politicizing a technology that belongs to the people.
TORII
[ 00:18:55,330 ] Meme-ifying it, and they're Amen. They are making it. They're writing regulations that's making it more Wild West where people are coming in and fleecing people and they're stealing.
TORII
[ 00:19:10,500 ] You know, they're making it easier to steal people's money. Meanwhile, having caricatures on stage that are saying, you know, you need to buy into this crypto thing. And then, meanwhile, you are their exit liquidity, as you would someone would say you are. They are just fleecing you. Yeah, totally. And so I'm in communities that are having educated, constructed conversations on Edge. On educating people.
TORII
[ 00:19:46,120 ] Amen.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:19:46,950 ] That's awesome. And thank you for defining fleecing, by the way, because I thought I knew what you were saying when you were talking about that. But, like I think, admittedly, like outside of watching like one or really long critical documentary about cryptocurrency and like I forget what those communities are called, where they're basically like an MLM, but like for like creating.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:20:05,760 ] For like an NFT community? Yeah, it was related to that for sure, yeah. It was like, I forget what it's called though. It's like basically creating like a different type of currency and then like. I don't know, like building it out so that, but basically, a pyramid scheme kind of okay. Yeah, and then like a bunch of rich people come in and like buy it all out, and like you know, basically, what they did with the art market is like old money coming in. Just like buying up all the new money and then like there's no actual like new all equal economy that they always claim that they're creating.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:20:39,700 ] So, but yeah, that's really cool. I love that. I was a little like, I'll be honest, when you first said it, I was like, oh.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:20:47,460 ] For critical, I was like, okay, yes, that's exactly what we need, like more than ever before. So, okay, that's awesome. And you already answered my next question too. What do you do with them in your free time? Or do you – is there something more that you do as, like, as far as – because, like, do you – Do you share any of that work to the larger public? Because I feel like people really need to know about things.
TORII
[ 00:21:07,160 ] Um. I don't know how I would share. I've tried to figure out how I would communicate with it. So right now I'm helping a community that educates people about it.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:21:18,650 ] Oh sure.
TORII
[ 00:21:19,660 ] about it. So they are called the Rise Up Morning Show. I help them with their backend, tech, admin, all the community stuff. But for me personally, where I do most of my insightful like written things is on Farcaster and I started a sub stack, but I never used it because, like I said, I still feel like I'm trying to feel out my way. Sure.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:21:42,810 ] Yeah.
TORII
[ 00:21:44,240 ] I don't want to be tied down to anything that is like here, TikTok. Definitely not meta. Definitely not X. I don't belong in these spaces and the spaces that I think that we will ultimately.
TORII
[ 00:22:02,830 ] Either reside or will be a stepping stone to where the future will be for our digital interfacing.
TORII
[ 00:22:10,050 ] Um, They're not going to it. It's not going to have walls. It's not going to be.
TORII
[ 00:22:14,690 ] You know, boxed in like X. The people who are on X think that everybody's on X. And when they talk to their uncle, they're like, 'What do you mean you don't go on there?' You know? It's weird, the people over there. And. I left Meta about two years ago, too, because it's.
TORII
[ 00:22:34,350 ] You know, you go on there and it's tracking your everything.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:22:37,570 ] It really is, yeah.
TORII
[ 00:22:38,770 ] It actually is. I know.
TORII
[ 00:22:42,720 ] But also I've been disconnected from people in, yeah.
TORII
[ 00:22:47,010 ] If they don't physically see me. And they aren't on TikTok and following this account. Or I know no one in my real life. I know what Farcaster is. So nobody's doing it.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:23:01,450 ] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think I've heard of it. I was thinking that earlier. I thought it was a type of podcasting stream. Is it not?
TORII
[ 00:23:07,740 ] No, it's a decentralized network where you can have different clients. Do you remember when Reddit had, you could do different clients for Reddit?
DR. BIRD
[ 00:23:16,410 ] Honestly, I'm like relatively new into Reddit. Like I've only been on Reddit for like a year. I know it's weird. You would think I would have always been on. Yeah, but that's what I mean. I'm like weirdly disconnected to like a lot of shit. Like me too.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:23:28,990 ] But yeah, I've been on Reddit for me like a year and a half. But no, that makes sense that it started out like that. But yeah, go on.
TORII
[ 00:23:36,080 ] Yeah, Farcaster is, it's a decentralized social media network where you can build different clients on it. And what I mean by client is back in the day for Reddit, you could download a different client for Reddit. So when you'd sign in, it would look different. It would function differently. But the feed would be the same, similar to an RSS feed where your podcast is going out here, and if someone subscribes to that. Then all the things they subscribe to in that feed are going to be filed in. The news. The Reddit API was putting out all of that feed. So no matter which client that you use to translate that feed, it would look a different way. And it was nice because you want something like that. I'm going to turn on the light. Sorry.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:24:27,410 ] It's really dark.
TORII
[ 00:24:28,230 ] It's like the sun is going down.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:24:30,250 ] I know. It's funny. Yeah.
TORII
[ 00:24:32,990 ] You know, you might want it to look a different way when you sign in. Maybe you like pink and you want to have your feed talk more about butterflies and lighthouses or something. And when you sign in, you want it to look that way. Well, now when you sign in to Reddit. It just looks the way it looks. Yeah, totally. You can get even more technical about how you would sort it. Well, Reddit turned that off. You can't do that anymore. You only have the Reddit app and they won't share their API with anyone. So they have now essentially closed it in.
TORII
[ 00:25:09,040 ] End. What I like about Blue Sky is decentralized. Cardcaster is decentralized. Mastodon, I believe, is.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:25:17,820 ] Yeah, I think it is. Yeah. As far as I remember, because that's why I joined it originally.
TORII
[ 00:25:21,880 ] Yeah, and then that means that Even if.
TORII
[ 00:25:26,100 ] If you wanted to, you could build a whole other app. using that API.
TORII
[ 00:25:31,500 ] where you would go.
TORII
[ 00:25:35,250 ] So let's say Torii goes on there and I will send a cast out or whatever they're called. And then it will show up on Blue Sky as well as another client. That you could download. And this client could be video friendly. We only want to show videos on this client or video heavy. Another one could be like a Twitter replica. Where you're just seeing the text things. Another one could be more of like small communities where, like, for on Farcaster, there is a client called Cura that is all about curating communities. And I'm in communities there. There's a board gaming community I'm in, gardening. Solar Punk.
TORII
[ 00:26:18,600 ] All kinds of things. And it breaks it down like Reddit, more like. But it's on the same.
TORII
[ 00:26:24,810 ] But when I log into Cura versus when I log into Farcaster, these different apps. I'm logged in as me. Yeah. And when you're logged in as you and we're friends, you see my stuff.
TORII
[ 00:26:37,740 ] Kind of a fool.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:26:40,180 ] Yes.
TORII
[ 00:26:41,600 ] It was only. Yeah.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:26:43,070 ] I gotta look into that.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:26:45,250 ] You're selling it for me. So like, yeah, that sounds awesome. Well, and I know someone earlier, because you mentioned that there's like different communities on there. Does any of it because somebody earlier it was let me see the unhinged librarian asked on TikTok, like, where do you find these communities? Is that where you found any of your like in-person communities? Or is it like primarily online communities?
TORII
[ 00:27:04,890 ] Mm.
TORII
[ 00:27:06,880 ] My in-person communities are through connections that I've made throughout my life.
TORII
[ 00:27:15,540 ] I don't think any of them really are people I've met online.
TORII
[ 00:27:20,500 ] Mhm. But through how I found this. I know that Discord, they were saying, like, um, 'It should just be farcaster . com. F-A-R-C-A-S-T-E-R . com.'
DR. BIRD
[ 00:27:34,450 ] I was just writing that too. I figured that was how you spelled it, but thank you for verifying.
TORII
[ 00:27:39,040 ] Yeah.
TORII
[ 00:27:41,100 ] And then Cura is C-U-R-A. Like curate.
TORII
[ 00:27:47,040 ] Um, I lost my dream of thought while I was like thinking.
TORII
[ 00:27:53,620 ] How do I find people? Yeah, like in-person communities versus online. My in-person communities are from when I left mechanical engineering. I went and worked at I went and I was a costume shop, where I made costumes for the school plays. Oh, that's awesome. For the college I was going to, and then I became good friends with the costume shop director.
TORII
[ 00:28:20,840 ] And, you know. Decades later, she retired. She opened up a shop in downtown Dayton. And I go in and support her shop. And then I help her behind the scenes with her Shopify and her whatever. Yeah. And then she introduces me to people in the community and we talk about. You know, recycling and composting, and how much we love the bees and the flowers, and it's nice to just chit-chat. Then it leads into, 'Hey, I need extra work.' We have a lot of plants to plant, and not enough hands. What are you doing?
DR. BIRD
[ 00:28:55,840 ] I'm for as one doll. No, that's awesome. I love that. And that's, I actually did a little bit of scene shop work myself, not so much as like costume design or set design, but like I, I resonate with that. Deeply so, like I love that you did that and it sounds like it's like it's just the epitome of like you know, meeting people in person and then just being like, 'Oh, we all love to make the community better, let's continue doing that in new ways. Yeah, that makes a little sense. And unhinged librarian. Basically, this is where it is. Recorded and then I'll be sharing “What the F**k?” across anywhere podcasts are—basically distributed through like the Buzzsprout distributor platform.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:29:35,110 ] Yeah, I know. We're small and few for now as far as listeners, but as we continue, we'll grow.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:29:44,100 ] As any plant does.
TORII
[ 00:29:47,350 ] Yeah.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:29:48,130 ] But no, that's really cool. I love that you do that. And I think it's really inspiring for folks that are like, cause you really are. You're the. Like building off of and showcasing the in-person community building and online, and that like—they each have their place and they each have tools that you can use. And that there are, like, increasingly more decentralized networks that are existing because people are looking for them. I mean, the more that they've threatened apps like TikTok, the more that people are like, we're going to really need to find something else to replace this with, especially if they really get rid of it. If they ruin it as they're continuing to, you know? So it's like, I love that you've got both and I think you know as many folks have said like no time like the president in doing that so I know my next question for you is kind of an unusual one because it's something that people often don't think about. So, The folks that you're in community with. If you could explain.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:30:41,450 ] How do they treat you and how does it make you feel?
TORII
[ 00:30:46,270 ] Hmm.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:30:47,050 ] I know, it's like a question kind of, right?
TORII
[ 00:30:48,970 ] I guess it depends on the community. Like in some communities, I'm more of a student. Like in ham radio, I've only been doing that for about two years, maybe three. Um, So I am.
TORII
[ 00:31:02,250 ] I'm really learning and I'm just like. They treat me lovingly, but they also reach out to me. They've learned what I'm good at. And so like if they need a PDF, they're going to call me. If they want something printed out, they're going to call me. But then. In like with A lot of my work in downtown Dayton, specifically like That would be gardening and the bakery. talking with people in person.
TORII
[ 00:31:31,450 ] it has been more of a People look at me.
TORII
[ 00:31:40,170 ] For stability, you know, I.
TORII
[ 00:31:44,250 ] they really do and they'll say I can even see it happen. I can see their thoughts forming that they want to ask me, like Not necessarily advice, but like, hey, Torii, what should I think about? Like, where should I look about this? And then I can see it like winding up. And then they'll ask me something. They'll be like, 'So I've been thinking, you know.' And so then I say, have you looked at and then I'll list, you know, all the resources that. I really think about nihilism a lot. A lot of people in our community are looking. It's that dark line. And I get her name, but she. She's blonde and she talks about nihilism and leaving Christianity and spirituality.
TORII
[ 00:32:30,310 ] Here and she just started a YouTube. I can easily get.
TORII
[ 00:32:35,960 ] her name and I apologize, but you're okay.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:32:39,570 ] My memory is literal trash. So like, yeah, we'll find it if he be.
TORII
[ 00:32:44,790 ] Yes, we can be friends.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:32:46,680 ] Yeah. I love that we're making the connections already. I know, like I said, Torii, I'm really glad that, like, we've been able to chat because, like, your shit is really cool. And, like, we obviously have a lot in common. So, like, everyone be friends.
TORII
[ 00:32:59,690 ] Yeah. Right now. So don't forget.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:33:02,930 ] Nice.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:33:05,020 ] But, yeah, I love that, like, it's both. And that's the thing, right? Because it's, like, I think it's a different, correct me if I'm wrong, it feels like it's a different type of relationship, though, than, like, the typical.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:33:17,980 ] Like, dominant idea of friendship or relationship that's usually nowadays like people have a hard time building relationship because like so much of our language that we use to describe it or the expectations are like not often like mutually beneficial or like they're very like.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:33:38,430 ] I don't know, it's like time is money has infiltrated into our idea of how friendships are. And it sounds like this is something that's opening opportunities for alternative community building, where it's both obviously utilizing skills. But also like. having that mutual beneficial, like learning experience. In a way that like. as the systems that you're in and the communities that you're a part of. They're building an alternative way of doing that in comparison to like the very otherwise isolated and like money-hungry kind of systems that are dominant.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:34:12,780 ] That's what I'm getting at least. Am I wrong? No. I figured, yeah.
TORII
[ 00:34:18,360 ] Yeah, I'm. What I really like about, like, the ham radio guys, for example, that community.
TORII
[ 00:34:24,380 ] It's mainly retired men. And I live outside of an Air Force base, so a lot of them are. They were probably in radio for the Air Force or a contractor here. Um, or we have the University of Dayton, mechanical engineering. So we have a lot of mechanical engineering professors as well.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:34:47,600 ] Oh, sir.
TORII
[ 00:34:48,920 ] Um, But they all, it's all volunteer. Like everything about ham radio is. Hey, we want to give back to the community. And if comms go down, if communication goes down. It's like the last line. I know, that's what I understand, yeah. Yeah, and we communicate and coordinate on things from local parades to the Air Force Marathon to, uh, Just like if there's a natural disaster, a lot of people are going to be calling in to all the lines. Guess what lines aren't going to be doing? And so then Ham Radio has a protocol on how to help out in emergencies.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:35:27,680 ] That's huge. And that is, I mean, because a lot of what I'm like that inspired me to want to start to ask folks questions other than like the loss of social media platforms is like. OK, if there is a natural disaster, which we know we have seen, like, obviously escalate in recent years or like. If your water wasn't clean tomorrow, what would you do?
DR. BIRD
[ 00:35:47,740 ] And like people have had to respond like that. And obviously, media like this, it has allowed people to like. orchestrate or like you know, if the power grid goes down like in a certain way, because aren't a lot of ham radios like also like a stepper power source if I'm wrong, like aren't a lot of people aren't they able to at least like connect them. We're like, I don't know. This is the vibe I get from folks that have Heim radios is like a lot of them are also like building alternative ways of energy production or like a lot of the time it's That's what I mean. I feel like a lot of the time when I'm thinking of hand radio, I'm thinking of folks that also have like solar panels or like folks that also have like a generator for backup in case of like something like that, that would be catastrophic. Like that's the vibe.
TORII
[ 00:36:27,280 ] A lot of people do come into ham radio from the prepper stream.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:36:31,870 ] That's what, yeah, I was trying to avoid using that because I'm like, I know that sometimes people don't receive that.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:36:38,259 ] But like it is, it is, it is. Yeah, I see that as kind of like a Venn diagram.
TORII
[ 00:36:43,670 ] Yes, but I, in this community specifically, we have. We have Hamvention, which is the largest ham convention in the area. I love that. The wordplay is good shit.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:36:54,960 ] You like everyone in Ohio right now. You Ohio represent, apparently.
TORII
[ 00:37:01,370 ] Thank you. Call me all peppers.
TORII
[ 00:37:04,320 ] It's true. Um, R.
TORII
[ 00:37:08,100 ] I'm trying to think: What else? We have Skywarn, right? Which is, we had Xenia, which was completely leveled by these tornadoes back in, I believe it was either the 80s or the 90s. I can't remember if I was alive or if I was a toddler, you know? Yes. I didn't witness witness it. It was completely leveled. We're at the very end of the tornado valley. And ham radio is very influenced by solar activity, like right now. We're in solar maximum and we're actually in like a geomagnetic storm. And it messes, you know, with the way that you can communicate. But.
TORII
[ 00:37:54,120 ] I. Going back to community specifically, ham radio is doing a lot of things.
TORII
[ 00:38:01,160 ] In the like, not necessarily just ham radio, but radio, is you can have.
TORII
[ 00:38:10,030 ] They're doing community gardens where they're taking a raspberry pie and they're downloading like.
TORII
[ 00:38:16,260 ] All of Wikipedia.
TORII
[ 00:38:18,100 ] And then all the open source things that are like. How to clean your water, how to make sure that you have electricity. What you need to do in case of bloop, bloop, bloop, bloop, bloop. But all the open source public stuff, you know.
TORII
[ 00:38:32,580 ] Um, and they put it on this little raspberry pie and they're using a communication called, um, mesh tastic and you make. I've heard of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nice. You have a node.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:38:43,290 ] Does it extend or is it, so it's like, is it a separate internet or a separate phone line? Or I know it's something like that, right? I've definitely heard it. Yeah. Yeah. So basically you. And it's how it extends based on how many people are in it. Right. Like it's like it's like stronger if there are multiple. Yeah. OK. Yes.
TORII
[ 00:39:03,090 ] So we could all be nodes, is what it's called, innate E. And then if you had your own, like you could put it outside of your house or people are putting them in community gardens as well. Yeah. And then you can access it. If the power goes out, if there is no internet, because it's not on the internet, it's on radio.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:39:24,690 ] Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's making a grid. Totally, yeah. I know, and that's the kind of shit that, like, people need to know about. Like, it's like, and this is, like, it is. It's an alternative. It's kind of like, it's what Musk wishes Skynet was, to be honest.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:39:37,940 ] That's what Musk sells it as. But it's people-owned. It's not billionaire-owned. It's direct action. It would coordinate mutual aid efforts. It would make sure that people have what they need. It's in the place of any national disaster. Like, it's exactly, yeah, I feel like it's integral to people.
TORII
[ 00:39:55,980 ] And you don't need a license for it. Like, for the ham radio stuff, you do. But for this, you don't.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:40:04,240 ] That's awesome.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:40:05,760 ] Yeah, any kind of bureaucratic loophole that we can escape, we're going to need to do for sure.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:40:10,700 ] Yeah, that's awesome. Hell yeah.
TORII
[ 00:40:13,040 ] Yeah, it makes me, when you mentioned Elon, it makes me think of, have you seen the photos of Earth taken before they photoshopped all the satellites out? It looks like a little fleas.
TORII
[ 00:40:24,259 ] Really? Nobody's going to see that. And it makes me think, I wonder if they're only doing that because then we can't reach them. But if they were putting Bill on the ground.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:40:34,259 ] Wow. I mean, I wouldn't doubt it.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:40:36,930 ] With the strategy that I've seen, because people forget that the original internet was largely designed for warfare. They forget what it was. Yeah, like, and it's something that, like, I mean, you know, people mock, what was it, that congressperson who was like, 'the big wire is underwater.' And it's like, no, but that is what the Internet is. It is.
TORII
[ 00:40:55,340 ] Yeah, that's how the servers are.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:40:56,920 ] Yeah, like there's that book, Mar Hicks, one of my idols, who is also a mutual on multiple platforms now, which I couldn't be any more grateful for. Like they are. One of the authors in the book, your computer is on fire. And like, it's incredible. It talks all about that. One of the first chapters. And I was like, damn, like this is the kind of shit. Cause people like, that's why I was like. Earlier, I was like, mechanical engineering makes complete sense if you were continuing on into the technological extension of that. Because everyone always forgets everything that we have that has been transformed. Into the cloud now, that's like allegedly disconnected. It is all inherently physical, it is all ecologically like altering our environments, and like, whether you know the materials that they're built out of has an effect just as much as the social interaction that we use through the material that makes it so. So it's like, Yeah. Yes.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:41:46,890 ] Yay. Well, I know, uh, obviously you're talking about like, I mean, cause I would imagine the communities that you're in, like the vibe is like very different than what a lot of folks probably have, because again, unfortunately, a lot of my research shows that we are, we're in a global loneliness epidemic, like it is something that is affecting all of us, it's not just a male loneliness epidemic, even though society has been framing it like that, because we're in such a male-centric society. They were like, it's just this problem. And it's like, no, it's all of us. And I feel like communities that you're describing, like it has a distinct feel to it. Even though, like you said, and that's why it's like it's funny because even though you said it's like largely like retired men, from what I understand, like the vibe is still distinctly different. And like it sounds. Like it would be like, does it feel good to be a part of that? I would imagine, like, it's something— oh my god—yeah, yeah, like it's and so, like, do you feel like, like, because this is a different, this may or may not apply, honestly, but like, my next question for you is, do the people around you stand up for others when they're attacked?
DR. BIRD
[ 00:42:47,710 ] Because I feel like that connects to the community building.
TORII
[ 00:42:53,210 ] Yeah.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:42:53,510 ] In ways that like, people will take for granted. You know what I mean?
TORII
[ 00:42:57,190 ] Yes. This is a weird attack, but you know, like, at the bakery, there was just, within a four-day span, two cars hit the pole out front of the bakery.
TORII
[ 00:43:11,400 ] But this has been a problem on this whole street where other businesses, one is like a She's been delayed on opening because someone literally came from the front of her building. Well. The. The owner of the bakery, my friend, has been causing a stink going around talking to everybody and then putting, you know, putting names together to talk at community meetings. There's like a neighborhood meeting. To talk there. And now, to the city about, and I forget the word. I don't think it's ballast. I think that's something else. You know, those poles that stick out. Oh yeah. To protect pedestrians.
TORII
[ 00:43:54,690 ] And buildings. And, you know, we've been talking as a community of how would you build this. If we handled, if it was leveled and we were to start from the beginning. How would we build the community so that it was accessible to all, so therefore all could access it? Starting from that viewpoint. And then, now that we could make some petitions on changes like putting up giant, maybe it's a big, giant concrete planter. That makes it to where they have to take the curve larger. It's your turning. You know, what different ideas are there? And I know that I have seen many. I've seen a creator specifically here on TikTok.
TORII
[ 00:44:35,560 ] Talking about urban planning and motion.
TORII
[ 00:44:39,030 ] How we can make changes, changes we can make today, how it could have been designed and why it was designed the way that it was. It's really interesting too. And so they're working on it together. And so, you know, these all these communities are saying, 'Yeah, I was attacked, you know, attacked by a car or by neglect.'
TORII
[ 00:44:58,180 ] Let's put up protection. We want people to be able to walk here. We want people to be able to live here.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:45:05,070 ] Yeah.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:45:06,750 ] I love that the community has come together with all like the unique perspectives and like expertises of live experience and like different skill sets and been able to like foster that kind of. Like no, we're gonna stand up for each other because that's what I mean. I feel like and people take for granted the way that the media that we have at our disposal alters the way that we do that. And whether we choose to stand up for others when they're attacked or not, and whether it's like an intentional thing, because I know you said, from what I understood, at least the cars, it can feel like it wasn't intentional. And it doesn't matter if it was or wasn't intentional. It's that the damage is done. And, like, whether you respond to that as a community, it makes a big difference. The Like, just the strength and the willingness to do what needs to be done for each other. And that, it makes all the difference.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:45:50,000 ] I love what you were talking about.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:45:53,150 ] Like the way that The community, because like we talked about, it's like this is something that I think people are really longing for, like in ways that they are and are not aware of. Like I think, a lot of us, you know, how we said before, like the TikTok app itself is like.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:46:11,380 ] Allowing us to become aware of what we actually know is what is always offered to us in person, and it's allowed us to understand that differently.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:46:21,600 ] And like, the way on and offline. And it's been able to like have us experience these breakthroughs and breakthroughs or breakdowns and breakthroughs, this is to say.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:46:34,070 ] And to be able to understand how these things make us feel. Because when we have the distance, and to say, 'Oh, I'm experiencing this,' it makes me feel bad.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:46:44,590 ] And then to have experiences like yours where you're having a like very like alternative and positive experience and it makes you feel good. Like it's like and the people around you then. react in ways that like make sure that that feeling is maintained and that you're standing up for others like I don't think that that's a coincidence like do you think like do you feel like you've had a similar experience of people standing up for others in communities that aren't like this or do you feel like it is distinctly different so this is to say like Do you think that people are staying up for others because it's the type of community or do you think that it's like just the type of people? I'm like curious.
TORII
[ 00:47:23,990 ] Hmm.
TORII
[ 00:47:28,920 ] Yeah, I'm not sure. I think some of it is that they are the one is a locale community. And then, like with radio, that's an interest community.
TORII
[ 00:47:40,660 ] With the interest community, I think a lot of it is that, even though some people come into it from like a prepper background, ultimately they settle on ham radio because they want to help out.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:47:55,060 ] That's what I thought, yeah.
TORII
[ 00:47:56,790 ] Yeah. If you don't really care about it, you're not going to go through the training.
TORII
[ 00:48:03,190 ] To get their certificate for it.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:48:04,590 ] Yeah.
TORII
[ 00:48:06,110 ] So there's a little bit of like a phase in. And it's kind of like. Yeah, technology being used to help people and how can you. I think the fact that people feel, um, like they're able to make an impact is important too. Oh yeah. And some of this, like with the loneliness epidemic, I'm thinking, I'm reminded of something that set me off.
TORII
[ 00:48:32,590 ] I think it was this year. A man went viral on here and it came across my page where he was saying, 'I don't want to small talk with you. I don't want to say anything about don't talk to me. It's so draining, it's so awful when these people do this to me. And I just thought, how very dare you. You don't know. That other person and, and how, just for you to come across like your social level is more valid than theirs.' And maybe all that they could muster that day was 'How is the weather?' And it's perfectly.
TORII
[ 00:49:10,470 ] I think normalizing boring conversations needs to be done because it is ostracizing people who don't know how to step past a boring conversation. And if you tell them that they are invalid. And that continues.
TORII
[ 00:49:25,780 ] The loneliness because they're lonely because they're not making a connection. And you are. If they're going out in public and then the barista is just closed off— not even saying hi with their eyes— and they're feeling. And that's. I don't like calling people NPCs for a similar reason.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:49:46,020 ] Yeah, no, totally.
TORII
[ 00:49:47,140 ] I know. Um, so I think that, yes, with community, some of it matters because they came into that community saying they wanted to help.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:49:57,750 ] Yeah.
TORII
[ 00:49:58,430 ] But with the neighborhood community.
TORII
[ 00:50:02,130 ] That one is— we all want to continue being here and living here.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:50:06,010 ] Yeah.
TORII
[ 00:50:07,100 ] And they have really cool organizers there. I don't know half of the people who are really badass doing cool things in these neighborhoods, but they. You know, they're putting on events for the neighborhood that bring in people from the whole community as well as keeping track of everyone and their concerns, and they have like a a way of listening to be. Of hearing people. They have like a. email chain that you can email. And some of it can get a bit. But it also It also helps people communicate. When maybe that friction layer is uncomfortable and they, they are able to say, like, 'Hey, I, I don't want someone. Driving in front of my, I saw someone that said. Going to have to sell the home. Okay. You know this is blah blah blah blah. I'm I'm upside down. And the community came in and was like, And this didn't happen in the email.
TORII
[ 00:51:09,610 ] This happened. On the outside, they just came in and said, 'No. No, you don't have to leave your home. We will figure it out. You will figure it out so that. You can stay there. And they didn't put that in the email.' But they— they saw the email where he was just saying, 'Hey.' I gotta go. And now we're like, 'No, you don't.'
DR. BIRD
[ 00:51:30,150 ] And it was good. No, it sounds beautiful.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:51:33,230 ] And I love like because what I'm thinking about too— and like I think many of us are probably in this circle, as if anyone's coming across like this on their page at all, and like what we've talked about. It was like, 'The way that,' and I don't know how many autistic people are in the spaces that you're talking about, but I feel like realistically, like when I'm hearing people in our communities, I'm closing up lines, sorry. If you heard the weird little sound, um, but like, what I'm hearing. Like, Autistic experience, the way that, because of the sensitivity and the way that we socially exist, like, the breakdowns again and the breakthroughs of our experiences, as well as our masking. Because usually when I hear people criticizing, going back to your previous point about like using small talk. They're doing it because, like, to an extent, like. There is something very normal about doing the small talk, but to your point and to the Obviously, the criticism of the person who was like, 'I don't want to do small talk.' It's like, we do need a level of, like, privacy, like we do need a level of, like, allowing people to show up in the way that they can and when people are heavily masked and they're autistic or not, like, this is the way that we can have some semblance of, like, community building or familiarity and
DR. BIRD
[ 00:52:52,090 ] allow people to, like you said, whether, because even, like, when folks, like, we may or may not have different levels of spoons or, like. We may or may not, like, it's like, we all just have different ways of existing, and sometimes we don't want to be confronted with all the world's horrors just when we're going to order a coffee like it's like. But it's so to your point, it's like I feel like when we're talking about having community together, it's like: It's these kinds of experiences, these like.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:53:22,650 ] I don't know, like very seemingly mundane moments that allow us to like overall connect.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:53:30,080 ] And acknowledge just like a base level of humanity so we can move forward and make sure that people are acknowledged for like who they are that day. And that we're all just like ever evolving beings with ebb and flows of energy. And like we just do what we need to do that day. And like there's moments for other levels of depth. But there's also moments for like, I need to just fucking chill out and not talk very much.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:53:54,629 ] So yeah, it's very important to acknowledge all the fullness of that and like the way that it changes.
TORII
[ 00:54:00,720 ] Yeah. And some of that, for me, I've been able to recognize.
TORII
[ 00:54:04,990 ] Where? I maybe was only able to. talk about the weather. was slowing down and listening to me and listening to people, like moving at a different pace. I have found. I don't know that I could speak too much on like. I know that I've consumed enough content to know that the way that we live through.
TORII
[ 00:54:27,790 ] Not content, but I'm trying to think what book I was reading. But we live in a very patriarchal society where even just the way that we are. Forced to constantly be at this one, there's only this level— you know. And you have to stay at that level. And if you dip down or go below, that's bad. But if you go above, that's your new level, and you must maintain it. Yeah.
TORII
[ 00:54:51,890 ] And I have been thinking, what if we just flow down and sometimes I can be like winter and be dead.
TORII
[ 00:55:02,250 ] And slowly be simmering these ideas. You had mentioned earlier about, you know, positive— you didn't say positive vibes, but it made me think: I am positive, but I am not always positive. Bars. I am there. I am very much into, like, I like to get dirty. And I like to be, that I like to, when I feel, ugh. I want to feel all of it. And I want to get into all the yuckiness of it. And then when I.
TORII
[ 00:55:35,090 ] Then let it go. But in speaking to like, maybe a person who doesn't speak and the weird language that I do. That really looks like listening to your body. How tired are you? You really are collecting things from people that you are interacting with them and you're carrying home their problems or their.
TORII
[ 00:55:56,640 ] And you can just.
TORII
[ 00:55:59,050 ] Take it off.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:56:00,629 ] Yeah. And that's why, I mean, inherently, like, when I'm, because people forget, right? Like, there is a lot of talk of, like, what patriarchy is and what it does to us and the way that it alters our experiences. But, like, people forget, like, when Bell Hooks is talking about an imperialist, like, white supremacist, capitalist, and patriarchy. They're talking about. the way that our body, just like our land, if you can, and I always hesitate to even call it like our land because land is not ownable. It is not. It's a living being that is its own entity that we have been deliberately lost in the acknowledgement of that like we've been we've been deliberately shielded from the fullness of our experience in this fully living planet, regardless of what what items on it are animate or not and like our concept of like our own existence in that. Because we see our bodies differently.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:56:55,110 ] And in a colonial way, when we don't understand that about the planet that we're on. So, like, in the way that patriarchy controls us, this is to say, it controls how we exist in space. But it's because it's especially in the U. S. context, obviously grounded white supremacy. So, like, there but the imperialism element of believing you can control the land. alters how you believe and how you can show up in space because the control of our bodies as well, which is inherently bound up in all of those arbiters— you know, again, the imperialist, white supremacist, capitalist patriarchy, all of those things in tandem alter the way that our bodies exist in space. and they alter the way that we are expected to both perceive our own embodiment, as well as the way that we have expectations of, like, our self as like a continued product and a project that we have to ever evolve and to an extent it's like obviously self-growth is great we do need that but like when you see it as like an endless pursuit it's something that becomes a burden and a product that you sell classes to provide to people and it's like we are more than that And it's hard because it's like these.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:58:02,350 ] And that's why it's like it's interesting to see like. How these different media and whether it's ham radio, whether it's TikTok, whether it's just in-person, traditional conversation, like the way that these different types of media environments alter our understanding of that. And the way that, like, because this era is, again, all the preceding media has altered our understanding of ourselves, our relationships with others, our relationships with the planet, and our understanding of power dynamics that exists within all of them. And it's something where, like, because all the newer media has just stacked on top of the pre-existing types— ham radio, the internet, TikTok— and then the ownership of that has altered it as well. Like, we are now in this shitfuck of environment where things are both— they're everything, you know, everywhere all at once, just like the movie says.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:58:52,800 ] And so it's like, but people forget, right? Because it can feel all encompassing. And there's like this feeling of like learning powerlessness and like immense futility to be able to make any change. And so that's why it's like. pivoting into like the C19 conversation, like people can feel like because of just the dehumanizing foundation.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:59:14,290 ] With all of the technology stacked on top. It's something we're like.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:59:19,890 ] It's easy for us to not utilize all the media at our disposal or all of the communities at our disposal to like understand what we do and do not want to take part in, how we want to show up, and what we have the power to change when we're there. And like so much of everything, you know, and like standing up for people and what is a fight to stand up for in the first place. So like my next question for you is: Do the people around you talk about C-19 as something still happening, or do they refer to it as just in the past tense?
TORII
[ 00:59:50,510 ] past tense. Yeah.
DR. BIRD
[ 00:59:53,000 ] Is it the same online and offline?
TORII
[ 00:59:58,620 ] I have found some spaces on, I think, mainly TikTok, where we are still talking about it. Um, It's not just you.
TORII
[ 01:00:13,390 ] But there are a few creators on TikTok who are talking about it. In person, I can't picture— maybe with my mother. We have had a conversation.
TORII
[ 01:00:25,290 ] Um, But I would doubt. That she, well, no. My mom's a lot like me, so she might be having conversations like that with other people.
DR. BIRD
[ 01:00:36,460 ] We love that.
TORII
[ 01:00:38,180 ] Yeah.
TORII
[ 01:00:39,460 ] My mom's pretty social.
DR. BIRD
[ 01:00:41,290 ] Oh yeah. Yeah, because I ask that because I feel like oftentimes when people think about like standing up for others when they're attacked. It's like, attack like we were talking about before— it's like it's both. It's both passive and it's active. You know what I mean? But people opt to. Attack isn't something that like— I don't know—, attack probably isn't even the right word, if I'm honest. Like, I could rephrase this question so that it would be more versatile. For example, maybe, like, more versatile, but, like, Maybe, like, I mean, injustice in itself is probably more suitable, or, like, harm. Why not? Because, like, I wonder, like, where the line is, because, like, moving forward, like we were talking about, it's like. Both using all the media at our disposal. Like, we're going to need to. Be able to find a way to make a transition, especially in-person communities, referring to COVID-19 as something that only exists in the past, so that the communities moving forward are able to fully embrace and pursue disability justice alongside those of us that have been begging them to. It's, like, because, like, how do we, like, I wonder, like, from your perspective, like, why do you think people don't mention it as something that's still happening?
DR. BIRD
[ 01:01:50,150 ] Like, because that's such a big question, but I think that it's an important one. I think it's because.
TORII
[ 01:01:55,090 ] People were attacked last time they talked about it. You know, I think they fear.
TORII
[ 01:02:02,380 ] getting attacked again, either saying either on both, you know, saying wear a mask. You know, attacking that or the people saying 'don't wear a mask' or 'don't, you know, whatever.' Yeah. Everybody was attacking everybody, so since it's a subject that they know, 'attack' is going to come out. And you kind of couldn't tell who was going to attack you. In a way. No, you didn't know which way. I had conversations with people. During COVID, during the lockdown, I was working.
TORII
[ 01:02:34,450 ] Waiting tables. And so that was extremely masked. Initially, we were just doing, you know, takeout, out the door kind of a thing. And then it moved to waiting tables again, where they had, you know, the big boxes boxing each table in. The plexiglass boxes, and then we were wearing masks.
DR. BIRD
[ 01:02:54,060 ] Yeah.
TORII
[ 01:02:54,440 ] I know. And. And people really argue with us. You know, the wait staff. About whether we should be wearing them or not. And then you know, and it's like, in those situations, I couldn't even choose if I wanted to be part of that conversation. I would imagine. You're paying me. And then there's. Exactly. Yes. The service workers really, really got attacked by it.
DR. BIRD
[ 01:03:21,110 ] Well, yeah, when your tips literally depend on it, and we're in an economy where the tips are the epitome of your income. It's like your tips. Yeah. And that's something that like, as someone, because admittedly, like, I have operated from an immense level of privilege where I've been able to like have that distance. And I mean, you know, it's always it's always like a double-edged sword of like. I have been entirely alone while also witnessing and trying to take in others' experiences of like, being essential workers, being in let's like domestic violence situations where they can't escape or being in whatever other like late stage capitalist hellhole where they like are unable to in any way negotiate their ability to mask or not and it's like it's it's so like just everything about it is like It's so demoralizing. It's so dehumanizing. And the pain is so immense and so important to talk about because of that. And so it's like. I can imagine, as someone distanced from it, the, like, and I also remember, and every time I leave the house, right, it's, like, there's this experience of being in person, I think, that obviously, like, with its just, like, viscerality and, like, presence, it has a certain way of like making us forget
DR. BIRD
[ 01:04:39,070 ] the fullness of the.
DR. BIRD
[ 01:04:43,000 ] Like, true risk. right because when we're around people that like are like no, it's not a big deal and everyone around you says that it feels like that's right, it feels like it feels like it feels it feels like true like And it's like, how can I combat that? Because everyone around me, I mean, we know that there's been countless psychological studies where it's like people believe that if everyone says that it is. And it's like, how could you would be you will be treated. You will be ostracized. You will be treated terribly if you go against that. And there is a real pain that comes from that kind of experience. And I know what it's like in my own way. And so it's like I have immense empathy for that while shouldering the pain of like a completely opposite experience. So this is to say, like, thank you for sharing that, because I think it's really important. And I know you weren't done.
DR. BIRD
[ 01:05:27,380 ] Sorry, thank you for letting me get that out.
DR. BIRD
[ 01:05:30,180 ] But yeah, like. Did you have more that you wanted to answer with that or did you want to move into?
TORII
[ 01:05:35,030 ] Well, I will say that when it comes to like you being outnumbered. and your perspective feeling. you know, I think this happens a lot where people feel alone in a social situation.
TORII
[ 01:05:52,110 ] And you will, I have found.
TORII
[ 01:05:56,000 ] For the stronger of us, those with a little bit more ability to get shot, we need to get hit a little bit more times. You need to drop the guard for those of us. who cannot so that they can see you getting hit and you surviving. yeah they need to see Other people. If you are capable of saying, 'Even in your smallest way.' Everybody's saying, 'I hate pineapple pizza.' But you love pineapple pizzas. Yeah. You say it. And you don't need to. Make anyone feel bad in that pineapple pizza situation. It's a good practice for you mentally. But, like, practice just getting hit. Because you can either learn how to dodge it metaphorically in the future or put up armor, you will get thick skin and not that that is necessarily what I think. I want my children to have to grow up learning, but also, um.
TORII
[ 01:07:02,520 ] For those of us who have been hit, like, I just show people. All the time. How to like.
TORII
[ 01:07:09,660 ] Stick your foot in your mouth all the time.
TORII
[ 01:07:13,240 ] Yeah. And I will, okay, teach me, please.
TORII
[ 01:07:18,130 ] You know, and I want to be, I want to be. Told I'm wrong. I want to not know everything. I want to have. people that I can turn to that That know things. That's a little slightly off topic. But it was just thinking about.
DR. BIRD
[ 01:07:34,360 ] I don't think it is. I think that it's completely. Because really what I'm hearing is. It's wide. Your window of tolerance and that is completely because, when we're talking about what is normal and what is challenged, or oppositional, or alternative, that's ultimately what the conversation is. If you ask me, it's it's being able to, because again, as we spoke about earlier, also what's up, birdify. I've always loved your username.
DR. BIRD
[ 01:07:59,380 ] It's like it's something that, in a society, that tells us we have to be perfect, and in a society that values are worth based off of whether or not we're going to like go along with the crowd, but also if we're right, but not right in the wrong moments.
DR. BIRD
[ 01:08:13,750 ] We're only allowed to be right if everyone also agrees that we're right. And if we don't, if we say something, then we're going to be hated. And that in itself, it is, it hurts to do that, but it is important to do. And it's like you're saying, it's like it's hard because it's a fine line between, like, it's like it's inevitably in it. And I can't— I can't say that my experience is obviously representative of everyone. But I do notice a similar trajectory where, like, you're in a society that is the way that it is. And then. You learn who you can be and who other people want you to be. And you choose whether or not you're going to go along with that. And if you choose not to be who people want you to be, it is painful. And like you said, you will get 'pew-pewed' a lot in metaphorical ways and potentially physical ones, depending on how serious the altercation is. Or how much you view your humanity as something that should exist. So it's something where, like, there is a real level of emotional, verbal, and physical danger. And it's something where, like, the more if you know— if you are on the the receiving end of the emotional and verbal type of abuse, and like, just bastardization— but the society just constantly projects at us when we don't do the thing that we're supposed to, allegedly.
DR. BIRD
[ 01:09:29,439 ] You do develop a certain armor from that, inevitably, because you have to. Or you walk around as a walking wound. Which many of us do. And I think that in the level, like in the process of like healing and integrating the parts of you that you have been taught to be ashamed of, inevitably there is— and I spoke about this earlier on platforms too—actually. So And it has to do with what you were talking about at the very beginning of the conversation about a cycle of life and death, because it's ourselves in itself. Our all of our identities are an ever-evolving thing that we get to decide how to name and others will name it. Other things and these things are always competing. This is to say that like—the way that we exist in the world. We'll inevitably be at odds with certain people that have different ideas of us. And we get to choose how we build and how we present and what we contribute to. and what we choose to step away from. And I think that it's hard when we.
DR. BIRD
[ 01:10:33,360 ] Don't embrace the nuance of all of that. And we live in a society that flattens it, and we live in a society that bastardizes us for emotional expression and creative flow and like just the ability to be. not one thing or so all of this is competing simultaneously, and it makes sense that people would be afraid.
DR. BIRD
[ 01:10:59,460 ] to go against the grain. And I love that you pointed out, I like. Because I thought about, like, I understand that as someone that has been that has been hit so, so much. But like, you pointing that out of like people not saying something because they're afraid to, because they're not used to it. That is something that is completely outside of my like. Typical realm of of like understanding like, because I'm and it's easy for someone that has lived a life of doing that all the time to be like, 'Why don't you just let yourself get hit?' It's like, but I'm not used to getting hit. I'm afraid of that. I am literally afraid of that. And it's like, you should be. I understand why. But it's hard for someone. It's hard for me, admittedly, to have that compassion. But I need to. I really do.
TORII
[ 01:11:47,120 ] And for some people, it's actually physiological. You know, it hurts them. Yeah. Tommy gets literally upset when I get a bit.
DR. BIRD
[ 01:11:56,450 ] No, totally. And it's and that's valid. It needs to be acknowledged as valid. Like and that's why, like the other day, like I posted that video and it's like, you know, because I've spent more time than that. And as I'm sure you've seen, like over the years, just being like so upset. Like, so upset. And it's like, I, you know, just pressing it along the way of, like, the societal response to C-19 and, like, the, like, just lack of. Following research and like, just again, like people's inability to have the resources they need and the information they need to take care of themselves, their loved ones, and etc. It's like it's hard to get to the level of, I am angry because I am sad. It's so hard, but it's necessary. And I think that it's the only way forward. I think that it's the only way that we're going to bridge that gap between the injustice that's done. The community that needs to be built and the ongoing danger of C-19. So thank you for that honest answer. Who do you know that still face masks regularly to prevent the spread?
TORII
[ 01:12:59,500 ] Um.
TORII
[ 01:13:01,860 ] I know.
TORII
[ 01:13:03,660 ] My mom will go in.
TORII
[ 01:13:06,970 ] If she has heard anyone being like a close friend was, and so she was like with her, so she'll wear masks.
TORII
[ 01:13:16,379 ] I know that Bye.
TORII
[ 01:13:22,450 ] I think she's the only person, and I'm not even 100% sure. Hmm, hmm.
TORII
[ 01:13:28,810 ] If she even ended up going, or if she just said 'dad,' you know, sent dad out to whatever she needed to do. Really? IRL? Like physically? I don't think people are.
DR. BIRD
[ 01:13:42,160 ] Yeah, no, that makes sense.
DR. BIRD
[ 01:13:43,950 ] Well, and like, I know this kind of, um, like, change is my next question. Because I was going to say, like, have you talked to them recently? But it sounds like you're really close with your mom.
TORII
[ 01:13:52,970 ] Yeah. Yeah.
TORII
[ 01:13:54,830 ] Not every day, but maybe every other.
DR. BIRD
[ 01:13:59,910 ] That's awesome.
DR. BIRD
[ 01:14:01,570 ] Have you had a conversation with your mom about why she still masks and isolates?
TORII
[ 01:14:08,030 ] Mom is really.
TORII
[ 01:14:10,780 ] It's just that the science says that you should. So.
TORII
[ 01:14:15,230 ] The people that she listens to. You know, are saying in these situations, this is when you met, you know, and so she is very. If. If they scientists are an authority that she wants to follow, you know, so she Bye.
TORII
[ 01:14:34,710 ] How do I say it where it doesn't sound like another church figure? Because I started here.
DR. BIRD
[ 01:14:39,450 ] Yeah, that's okay, though, honestly. Like, I think that it's an understandable perspective to have. Like, I don't think that, but I know what you mean, though, because when I'm hearing it, it's like. It's then we're then faced with the reality that there are folks who are like, but I don't just I don't trust that authority, like period. And that's what they believe. And it's like art. Yes. And so it's like, and that's. why I feel like it all comes back to, like I mean, which is why I've been talking about it for years, you know what I mean, because it's like, you would, I mean, every other, in fact, I don't think I know A single other. And I hope that having this kind of broadcast will bring more meeting communication PhD folks. That are familiar with the C19 research, but I know that I'm like, I'm a significant minority in folks that have, even though I see the spread of the information and whether that's like the accurate information, the misinformation, the disinformation. I am a minority in describing it, even though I see it very clearly as a communication emergency. Like, I see it as an issue of either spreading the information. I see it as the elitist barrier, gatekeeping knowledge from the public.
DR. BIRD
[ 01:15:44,250 ] I see it as. As high up establishment as it gets, very deliberately, RFK Jr. like destroying every institution imaginable so that people do not have have what they need, whether it's like vaccines, as another element of, like, the Swiss cheese model to protect us alongside masks, hand washing, etc., distancing, isolating, whatever. Like, it's every single element. The doctors that aren't masking anymore for their own reasons, because of the exceptional trauma, as essential workers, the nurses and whatnot. And it's like there's so many layers to the information element. And honestly, from what I've learned, the field of communication is relatively new into the like medical communication. Like specialty so that in itself is its own issue that we haven't been like more directly talking with doctors or any other specialist about the way that the communication they use alters the way that the society exists, because again, that's why the work of, like, me looking at the eugenics biases
DR. BIRD
[ 01:16:48,370 ] of our societies and like the authority breakdown is breakthrough for better and for worse is altering our experience of the environment. The Arab. Since C-19 has started, because it's altered everything about everything and everyone I've talked to who sees that in the wrong way, we all acknowledge that reality and it's but it's like. Each of us has a sliver of our experience, whether, you know, you say you're a waitress, obviously you've seen that emerge in different ways. Like, because I'm sure the communities that you're a part of, like, do you feel like they're different since C-19? Like, do you think, like, that's what I think. How are they different? I'm curious.
TORII
[ 01:17:25,680 ] Yeah, I am going to walk and talk to go get a charger. No talking. But.
TORII
[ 01:17:32,230 ] I think some of it is I have, first of all, found new in. communities like I didn't know the gardening ladies until after.
TORII
[ 01:17:43,570 ] It was just this year that I met them, earlier this year. And then.
TORII
[ 01:17:50,560 ] So the, That has been building because I. was listening for what I wanted to talk about. You know, I was. paying attention to Mmm.
TORII
[ 01:18:03,060 ] Some of it was like some of it was music. I was changing what I was listening to. I was changing what I was. Um, consuming literally. And then I was also creating more. from that. So my journey was, you know, I found the poem talking about how another world is possible. And then it wrecked my.
TORII
[ 01:18:25,860 ] Wreck. It wrecked my physical life to where I left my corporate job. because I had hit a literal wall. And then I started seeking what was calming my nervous system down, what was relating to me. And through that, all of this, in the last five years for me, I've gotten into the ham radio. I've gotten into the native plants community. I've gotten into the decentralized social media community. as well as into just Web3 in general and just learning.
TORII
[ 01:19:04,790 ] about.
TORII
[ 01:19:07,830 ] all the pitfalls and seeing it.
TORII
[ 01:19:12,320 ] There we go.
TORII
[ 01:19:14,360 ] I'm at 16%, so I thought I'd scratch my head. Yeah, do what you gotta do.
TORII
[ 01:19:21,750 ] So.
TORII
[ 01:19:22,930 ] I have found that people people are are either going kindly. If we're going to use the mainstream for the word that it is, they're just being swept up in the current of every sitting.
TORII
[ 01:19:42,540 ] happening and not taking the time to stop and reflect in their own body of like, 'Am I even wanting to be here?' And I'm fine. More people in regional communities where they are there where they wait let me decide. Yeah, these are the people that I want to be in community with names. I choice for by location or whatever. Um, I'm finding that those people are, you know, they're slowing down, paying attention, and looking around.
TORII
[ 01:20:20,730 ] Getting in, for me, it is safe for me to get in my body now. I know that for people, it is not safe. But if you can—just dip in and check in on yourself. I know that it's a lot of.
TORII
[ 01:20:35,530 ] I don't want to use jargon or whatever.
TORII
[ 01:20:38,130 ] Mindfulness of being in the moment is really helpful if you can, like, have it, stack it with, I don't remember what this is called, but when you get a new car and you see that car.
DR. BIRD
[ 01:20:53,030 ] Oh, yeah, yeah, I know what you're talking about. I forget what it's called, too, but I know what you mean.
TORII
[ 01:20:56,270 ] Yeah.
TORII
[ 01:20:58,060 ] You can make that happen. Yeah. You can make it happen with a number. You can do it with a card doll, whatever. And you could say every single time I see a card doll. I'm going to think about my grandma. And then people already do. And so then they're more the cardinal because they're thinking. There. They are getting more fuzzy feelings about prayer.
TORII
[ 01:21:20,160 ] Do this. You can trick your brain. Into feeling better. By picking. I picked 42.
TORII
[ 01:21:28,060 ] As one does. Every time I see 42.
TORII
[ 01:21:33,800 ] I find something. I smell, taste. The youth are experiencing in that moment.
TORII
[ 01:21:41,660 ] And then just, oh, I like that, you know, and then just notice how much I like it. And when I started doing this, you are really mean to yourself inside. Yeah.
TORII
[ 01:21:54,330 ] And when that happens, you just drop it. You're not going to win an argument with your ego. Your ego is built. Built up to these blockers so just just back off. But know that it's success you continue dropping it and picking it up, dropping and picking up. You'll be able to hold it for longer— just some muscle you have to to practice. And then you can you can feel a little bit safer in your body.
TORII
[ 01:22:22,350 ] And then that helps when you are in these situations.
TORII
[ 01:22:26,970 ] Where you want to stand up for someone, whether it's yourself or someone else. Knowing how to tell yourself that you're safe.
TORII
[ 01:22:34,900 ] I want you to tap into it.
DR. BIRD
[ 01:22:37,250 ] Yeah, I think that's a really good point. Before we proceed, I know. Are you? Are you by any chance holding your phone on the bottom? Where it's like— you're okay, there's a little bit of an effect, kind of like we're underwater.
DR. BIRD
[ 01:22:52,010 ] It's because the charger. Yeah, I know what you mean.
DR. BIRD
[ 01:22:55,720 ] Happies to me all the time, folks have told me.
TORII
[ 01:22:58,950 ] I'm just going to not have, you just can't see me.
DR. BIRD
[ 01:23:02,230 ] I could still, I could still understand you to an extent and we'll have transcription anyway. So either way. I'll make sure that like, yeah, we got what you need, but no, that makes perfect sense. And I like that you connected the like window of tolerance kind of thing with like being able, cause it in itself, being able to handle and respond. to any kind of conflict, which like I talked about earlier, it's like, it is necessary for any kind of progress. Like that is in itself, it's its own exercise. Like, and I mean, as in, and I'm, I'm not a critic of mindfulness in itself. Whenever I'm talking about, because I've made multiple videos about like Robert Purser's book, McMindfulness, which is like, you know, the capital is co-opting of mindfulness. Yeah. Mindfulness is a useful practice. And just because capitalism destroys something and makes it something, you know, just like any neoliberal projects don't mean that the thing that's co-opted in itself is now useless to us, because it is necessary for us to be present.
DR. BIRD
[ 01:24:04,640 ] It is necessary for us to check in with our body. And actually, I think that there is a double agenda in it, co-opting it so that it feels like it is not useful to us. I think that it wants us to not be nuanced. It wants us to throw the baby out with the bathwater so that we don't do the thing that will ensure we return to embodiment and that we're able to like. Engage with each other and ourselves because you know, obviously, any relation it starts with our relationship with our own body, like you're saying. It's like it, and in and you know, because again, it's always as above, so below. It's always like our relationship with ourselves, our understanding with ourselves, then alters our relationship with others. And it alters, and it's immersed within the environment that is under that has allowed us. It has invited us, at least in the way that you spoke to, like you, you spoke to these realization moments of like. People like you know in the communities that you got into because of the the wall of the corporate expectations and, like, at first, when you described it, I thought you were describing executive dysfunction, and you do— do you think that you were, or do you think that in itself, because I see executive
DR. BIRD
[ 01:25:14,770 ] dysfunction as upsetting as it is for me, I see it as useful.
DR. BIRD
[ 01:25:19,500 ] Like, I really do. I think that it's a sign. I think that, I mean, even though, like, sometimes, I mean, it inherently is a disabling experience. But, like, in itself.
DR. BIRD
[ 01:25:29,980 ] Thank you. If it's not executive dysfunction, whatever phenomena it actually is, it's our body saying, 'This is not where we're supposed to be' because the flow is not happening. Does that make sense?
TORII
[ 01:25:41,350 ] Yeah. Yes, it does. I mean, I was definitely fighting with something. Yeah, you know, and I.
TORII
[ 01:25:50,310 ] I have always been able to fake it before.
TORII
[ 01:25:53,940 ] To force it through or whatever was happening.
TORII
[ 01:25:58,210 ] It was also kind of nice because most of my jobs, you know, the Nickelodeon job, I could find purpose because I knew.
TORII
[ 01:26:07,120 ] In some way, I was helping with guardrails. You know? Yeah. And. It did morph and change. As.
TORII
[ 01:26:16,570 ] as it went on. And then after that, you know, I did a lot of more smaller things and then went back to corporate.
DR. BIRD
[ 01:26:22,760 ] Mm hmm.
TORII
[ 01:26:23,890 ] And so then when I, it was almost like.
TORII
[ 01:26:27,760 ] stepping into you know.
TORII
[ 01:26:30,950 ] a hot tub after being in just like a normal pool where it was like so obviously jarring for me. You know, it was.
TORII
[ 01:26:40,570 ] It was too much. And I think, I don't know, I've never been diagnosed with. anything. I actually went to get a full diagnostic before a move.
TORII
[ 01:26:53,260 ] That we were going to do. And then it was like, 'Oh, we have to schedule that. Six months in advance.' And we were military. And so then, you know, it came up to it and we were PCSing and I couldn't.
TORII
[ 01:27:05,780 ] I couldn't go through with the diagnostic and then Hmm. It takes forever to get in on things, and then I decided I actually don't want my name on any lists. That's how I started to feel. I don't want.
TORII
[ 01:27:18,840 ] Anyone putting me on a list? And. and telling me Um, I don't know where those lists are stored and I don't like, you know, how different things have happened. Um, so I thought, you know, maybe it's better if I just listen to any kind of advice.
TORII
[ 01:27:40,710 ] You know, like executive dysfunction help, like advice has always helped me. So.
TORII
[ 01:27:47,580 ] you know.
TORII
[ 01:27:50,240 ] I'm not sure I.
TORII
[ 01:27:52,080 ] I would love to know. I would love to have someone look. and do some tests with me and tell me what would help me more, but also.
TORII
[ 01:28:03,760 ] I've been helping myself a little bit, you know.
DR. BIRD
[ 01:28:06,780 ] No, absolutely, yeah. Well, and like you said, it's like what makes this era so revolutionary, regardless of the like prolonged billionaire ownership, censorship, and the ongoing genocides, ecocides, and every other devastation of exploitation, sickening, disablement, and unaliving. Like, is that it? Possibility is for us to, like, see what needs to be, what's going well. And it's like, the the like inevitable fear. And the like dynamic of like, oh, maybe I'm not as able-bodied as I thought that I was for many people that has gone on over the last five years. And like each of us are experiencing that individually differently. And our decision to like pursue a diagnostic— like write up and have something on record— is something that I believe is everyone gets to decide whether or not they will pursue that for whatever reason they see fit. Like as I've talked about for years, like. I was told by a therapist that I'm autistic.
DR. BIRD
[ 01:29:09,140 ] I fit all the criteria, but they recommended that I don't get a formal diagnosis because it would hurt me more than it would help me. Like that's what they told me. That when I. I was, you know, a year in my PhD program, like, and they were like, 'just don't do it because the society is so eugenic.' You know, they said ableist, but like the society is so harmful.
DR. BIRD
[ 01:29:30,010 ] That don't do it, and this was obviously before, like, 2025. This was, like, we've known, and disability activists forever, and especially black and brown folks, folks, gender-marginalized folks, non-English-speaking folks, folks that are incarcerated. Everyone has been saying, 'Hey, look at this horribly violent society that reinforces every incarceration. Every militarized terror imaginable and now this era is allowing us to like see that and feel that and taste that and smell that and it's disgusting and we, but like, it's so it's like it's this, it's like another level of understanding that we are now like able to by ourselves and in communities, make sense of. And no matter what, because of just the level of urgency, because of the level of devastation. Like any disabling event does, whether it's a disability or a you know, climate event or whatever, like it all offers us an opportunity. To realize, wow this isn't working just like the corporate job did.
DR. BIRD
[ 01:30:31,620 ] Just like, you know, any kind of sickness does or any kind of disability or whatnot. Like these are opportunities for us to sit with and say, 'Is what I'm doing going well? Is this something I should continue doing? Is this how I want to relate to my body? Is this how I want to relate to others? Is this how I want to relate to the planet?
DR. BIRD
[ 01:30:53,240 ] All I've seen over years now is people waking up and realizing, 'No, this is not the way that I want to go. This is not the way that I want to be in community.' I have not been doing myself justice. I have not been doing others justice. I have not been, you know, I am being contaminated by corporations that are willingly poisoning us and our loved ones to the profit. And that needs to change. And I think, like our conversation today, shows if we're going to talk about it broadly. Which again, the point of this podcast is to talk about what's going well. What needs to fundamentally change. It's that. The eugenics biases have shown to us that are community building that you are pursuing. And I'm sure many others who may or may not be listening to this right now. Or listening to it in the future. Are very actively pursuing in ways that this era has shown to us is necessary.
DR. BIRD
[ 01:31:47,440 ] Are pursuing communities that can respect their humanity in ways that are currently being disrespected, and that they deserve to be respected that way, and that it's not going to be easy to do it, but it is necessary. Because as the system continuously dehumanizes us. And all of the pre-existing harm is just perpetually stacked on top of with more harm. We are going to have more and more opportunities to acknowledge that. That we deserve better. and that everything needs to change, at least our understanding of our own bodies, our relationship with others in the planet, which I consider everything.
DR. BIRD
[ 01:32:24,410 ] even though there are good things that need to continue, like just like how you're the point of the ham radio community, everything there like that is that, that is going well, like that isn't old media that's showcasing what is going well. The mechanical engineering degree has shown you a very important perspective that allowed you to take. And then obviously all of the software knowledge that you have has allowed you to take that knowledge and help multiple different community members on and offline with their own communities. and in ways that otherwise wouldn't have been there. You're witnessing the both beauty and volatility that this world has to offer in these online spaces while acknowledging the power that we all still have, despite billionaire censorship and ownership of quite literally everything. It's like these are the things that I think and this is the type of conversation that I'm always looking to have with people so that they understand that their living experiences are a form of knowledge, and no matter what, this is for better and for worse.
DR. BIRD
[ 01:33:26,800 ] As I talked about in the preview episode, as I talked a little bit too in like the bonus episode where I talked about my prolonged introduction, I posted a few days ago. Like, this is the kind of shit that people are taught is not valuable, but it is the most valuable. Because even if you've taken part in the violence, which we all have to some capacity, that lived experience is its form of knowledge. And that is the kind of shit that when you have that knowledge of harming people and you take ownership of it, that is something that you know needs to change. More than like equally alongside folks that have been harmed by that. The folks that have been harmed by you, you need to take accountability for and apologize for. And. You need to acknowledge that that pain that you've been taught to reproduce is larger than you. Because the system makes you that way. We are all. products of that system that make us a particular way. They teach us a way to live.
DR. BIRD
[ 01:34:20,820 ] And that is the thing that needs to change alongside. Like, when we move forward. whether it's through ham or eel communities. through TikTok. whatever community to re-nativize and land back, et cetera.
DR. BIRD
[ 01:34:33,520 ] Like that's the kind of shit that we have to teach each other. And that is profoundly valuable.
TORII
[ 01:34:39,550 ] Yeah.
TORII
[ 01:34:40,910 ] I'm wondering if one of the ways that we could envision what needs to change is, you know, from C-19, that was quite a winter. And by winter, I mean, like the plants, going to sleep. And we all had that time to collectively reassess, look around. We were winterizing. growing our roots underneath and figuring out what we wanted to do. To look around and to take livestock of what happened. You know, not livestock. Whatever. Stock.
DR. BIRD
[ 01:35:15,190 ] I mean, technically, I like it. It's a wordplay. Is it livestock real and behind it?
TORII
[ 01:35:20,790 ] Yes, and we really did. And I think that going forward, we have to have that more. And I'm trying to think how that would look. Because we have, like you said, society and all of its pressures, shame, and control is held up by many of us because we have all been.
TORII
[ 01:35:48,460 ] We are all kind of radiating, to use my ham radio analogies, but we're all kind of radiating that signal. But if you find where you are and you are able to stop doing it, you're not just helping yourself, you're helping people around you so that they're not picking up that same signal.
DR. BIRD
[ 01:36:09,090 ] Yeah. No, it's true. And that's why everything that I'm always coming back to is that people forget that language is as close to magic as we have. Every conversation that we have. About and sharing experiences, not as 'like I'm more superior' or 'that I'm the teacher and you're the student' or whatever it is. It's like it's looking at each person and saying, 'Your lifetime.' Has something to tell me and vice versa. And this is something— this is why, as we talked about before, you know, in the green room, it's like that's why they spend billions upon billions of dollars to divide us so that we do view anyone we come across as an enemy so that we don't acknowledge that, like, 'that's the very very articulate I mean, They have created a system that has made us believe that our experiences are not valid enough to be shared in the first place. And then they have created these fictions of enemies so that we hate each other. And they take advantage of like the method of growth— that we all inevitably go through.
DR. BIRD
[ 01:37:15,170 ] Because I would like to believe that it's very few people that are actually like inherently malicious as fuck. There are those people. Don't get me wrong. They absolutely. Exist but they're like a significant minority in comparison to the vast majority of people, and that's what makes the world scarier. Right, because it's like I like to believe that people are genuinely well-intentioned, and then they're taught things that make them do things they they may or may not be aware are contributing to like the devastation of the world, like and it's like in whatever way that may be, and that's what makes it scarier because that means that we have a bunch of good people who have been taught to hate each other, that all think they're the good guy, and they all think everyone else is the bad guy. And it's just not that simple. It's never been that simple. And like that kind of nuance, you know, I forget what we said earlier. It was like. Funny little like phrasing of something in the oh, I was like, I feel like this. The conversations I'm trying to have here, I feel like I'm like trying to um, like do a necromancy like of nuance, like necromancy.
DR. BIRD
[ 01:38:15,340 ] No. It's like enlivening the nuance that this, like, our 2025 society has, like, deliberately unalived, so that we do not acknowledge it. Because it's much easier to just point fingers at someone instead of acknowledging the fullness of their humanity and how much they have both been failed and contributed to failing others. And acknowledging that we can't just go around insulting people with eugenics-biased languages and treat them like some fucking asshole. Don't get me wrong, it feels really good. It feels really good to do that sometimes. But also that is not the way you can't stay that way. Like it's not okay to stay that way. That is not contributing to liberation for all when you do that. And, like, it's something where, like, we need to move beyond that, especially in a society that, like, puts a huge price tag and, like, generates a massive clout. When you do that, we'll do that. It's like, yeah, oh, God.
TORII
[ 01:39:08,670 ] Well, it makes me think of a lot of the people who are anti-science or maybe were swept into MAGA or some of the The thinking that you are people are better than or less than people. A lot of that has to do with the way that the academic and science community has communicated with people and it has made them feel like, I, there was a switch. I'm, you know, when we were growing up in the nineties and it was all. You know, jocks versus geeks, you know, and then the switch happened and the geeks took over. They instead of oversimplifying here. I know what you mean, though. But they have now been punishing, you know, and because of all this punishment of 'You are so dumb, you jock.' That now anybody who has any kind of viewpoint, well, I'm not an intellectual, so then that means that's not for me.
TORII
[ 01:40:15,900 ] Because the intellectuals have pushed people out.
TORII
[ 01:40:19,810 ] By using language that is, you know, well, if you eat at McDonald's, then you're less than. Because obviously you wouldn't eat at McDonald's because you know that it's not good for you. Yeah. And then a lot of people who don't know better or can't do better, because that's what they live in. A food desert, or they eat. That's all that they know. How to do it. That's all that they really can afford. And then they're being told that science isn't for them.
DR. BIRD
[ 01:40:48,430 ] Yeah.
TORII
[ 01:40:49,480 ] You know, it doesn't make sense. And I think that's where a lot of the narrative has pulled a lot of people into anti-science. And believing.
TORII
[ 01:40:59,879 ] Trump really connected with people that I saw in my real life on that level of— they think that you're stupid. But look at me. I am just as classless as you are. I eat.
TORII
[ 01:41:15,690 ] McDonald's Big Macs and sit on flush paper down the toilet in the White House. Ha ha ha. How funny is that? And that's relatable to a lot of people because You know, they grew up on. um you know duct tape and and Red, green. I know that's Canadian, but.
TORII
[ 01:41:36,680 ] I don't know. To me, it is a narrative thing of yeah.
TORII
[ 01:41:42,780 ] Who are you around? Who are you hearing? How are they?
TORII
[ 01:41:47,680 ] How are they projecting? what has been projected on you onto you. You know, it's this. constant thing um So I really like how I'm interested to hear other guests on your show is what I'm trying to get to. to hear how they have been influenced. By some of the things they're taking in, either media, people, you know, think about like a movie that's supposed to be optimistic, WALL-E. They co-opt a lot of the work for you. They make it. They make it feel like it's already done. And then you don't go on home imagining, thinking, 'How are they going?' You don't see them doing the work of rebuilding the world. Spoiler alert, they get off of the spaceship and they come back to Earth, you know.
TORII
[ 01:42:35,120 ] But then you don't see what does that looks like.
TORII
[ 01:42:38,760 ] You know, that's not the movie. The point was to say was just to tell a good story. But a lot of us took. Some of that. And it almost.
TORII
[ 01:42:50,430 ] Made it.
TORII
[ 01:42:51,860 ] feel comfortable to not do the work. You know, and then I. You'll see in my name, Torii Stories Solar Punk Art. Because. I want to see a world that is going back. to regenerative.
TORII
[ 01:43:07,320 ] working with the earth. And. and going towards a green technology.
TORII
[ 01:43:14,790 ] Because we know that we can, and I'm not naive. to think that it won't be easy and there won't be difficult conversations.
TORII
[ 01:43:23,480 ] Um, But I. I don't believe that we are going to go to a cyberpunk future because all of the hands that are playing cards to go that way. have almost showed every all of their cards you know they're saying It. There are more and more conversations like this happening to talk to people on a human level of. Just look at who's talking to you. And look around and think about it. End. And. It was a marker. C-19 was a marker for us where we all. I really like that framing for this podcast where you're going to be able.
TORII
[ 01:44:05,620 ] You know, in the last five years, it's an easy chunk. We've already been conditioned, like you said, to think of five or ten years. Let's reflect on it and let's. Let's actually.
TORII
[ 01:44:17,260 ] I'm curious to hear how other people are interacting.
DR. BIRD
[ 01:44:22,310 ] I know, I'm really excited to, like, see who comes up, because I know it's something that, like, It's very. Like. the opposite of what I'm seeing on. this app a lot of the time. Don't get me wrong, I've seen some really incredible and inspiring discussion spaces. But by and large, it is like the very volatile, like two-party sports team kind of mentality. And it's like the 'Like, you know, like you were saying, it's the stereotypical. like white collar versus blue collar kind of bullshit.' And it's like, I have always resonated significantly more with blue collar folks than I have with white collar, if I'm so honest. And that's what makes me a very like. Unpopular academic, which is why I didn't continue on in academia, it's why, like, I never like, and I think oftentimes, like, when people approach me, as you know, like, like that empty caricature or enemy that they've been taught that I allegedly am just because of what they see of me from like five seconds or whatever. Like they expect me to be elite. They expect me to weaponize the, you know, like, you said, like, people forget that 'able'
DR. BIRD
[ 01:45:24,790 ] is a D word, like, about intelligence. It means that you can't speak. That's what it means. It's like D-U-M-B means someone who cannot speak. It's like literally what it means. And it's like. It's it's ironic right because it's like another epitome of like what The. Like both parties, whether it's Democrats or Republicans in the US, like it's really both major parties, I should say, because. Obviously, they're not the only choices necessarily, but they obviously hold the power and billionaire class owns both of them. It's something where, like, they both, especially Democrats and neoliberals, brought. Like, they weaponize elitism more than anyone. And they are constantly doing that against conservatives, and they weaponize it against, you know, differently against leftists like anti-capitalists. But it's something where, like, they are always reinforcing the same eugenics biases and they do it because they know that. Like the institutions currently, they will benefit from doing that because they do, because they unfortunately, we also know, like, it's why I critique education and higher ed differently, but like, the reason why so many folks in higher education are more than happy to like.
DR. BIRD
[ 01:46:36,970 ] take a more opportunistic stance than one that like goes against the grain is the same reason why. You know, they're excited to talk about how they went to an Ivy League over like a Research II institution, which is like apparently less prestigious.
DR. BIRD
[ 01:46:52,120 ] Or whatever, or like they have an article in nature rather than like whatever other like journal or whatever, and it's like this: it's the kind of shit that like people internalize it deeply and to an extent I understand why, but it's like that's the kind of shit that this era has allowed us to like break down in different ways, because like you said earlier, it's like: There's a reason why folks mistrust authorities, and it's because of medical apartheid. It's because of the deeply ingrained cisheterosexism that is built into virtually every institution and most every form of education that you have, and it's because of like the very specialized way of teaching and learning. Like, it's ironic, right? Because I've been doing that Charlie Kirk news series about his legacy of hate. And like people like forget that Charlie Kirk is a figure like he was straight out of high school. Like that guy was born and raised in the same area I was.
DR. BIRD
[ 01:47:48,470 ] And he spoke to the everyday person, like, you know, your middle America white person who, like, has been socialized into like a very racially homogenous environment who doesn't understand that 10, 15 minutes away, there's all the black and brown folks experiencing environmental racism and food deserts, etc. And the way that the education system itself has been stunted by the lack of income, because of like very deliberate historical, intentional targeting of Black and Brown folks. And like the way that all of that is built into every institution as well as our infrastructure. And it alters whether we have education, access, or not, and it alters whether or not we're able to allegedly, you know, work and earn what we deserve, because we live in a society that doesn't give us all what we need at base level, and that is inherently the problem. Right, because it's like in a society where, like, we are seen as our lived experiences themselves are not seen as valid. And then we're not able to access the institutions that would allow us to have.
DR. BIRD
[ 01:48:49,930 ] Lived experiences or access to knowledge that is seen as valid, who wouldn't hate it? Who wouldn't react negatively to people that treat you like a fucking asshole? Of course you are. It's like what blue-collar-ness obviously has always been— or any other highly stigmatized group of people. Like, you know, all the folks after Hurricane Helene, let's say, who were, like, in Appalachia and shit, and, like, they didn't get, like, any resources. And then you have neoliberals out here who were, like, you deserve what you got because you voted red. It's like, bro, they experienced a national disaster. And that's the distinction, right? Because it's like, that's why there's an inherent difference between people who will be like, 'Well, you didn't vote the way that we wanted' and the people that want liberation for all. These things are different. And it's like, we need to understand that this moment is allowing us to see the failures. That our society has provided us at base level. The way that when we say things, we don't like that we can take accountability for them.
DR. BIRD
[ 01:49:49,010 ] And that there's nothing wrong with acknowledging that you only know when you know everything becomes normal in repetition and everything is connected. And that we have a lot to learn from each other. And that we can't just approach everyone that we talk to. Despite all of the like bot armies or people that are like set in their ways, like we need to both take care of ourselves and approach people with more grace and more patience and more humanity.
DR. BIRD
[ 01:50:15,500 ] And we need to work against the grain in whatever communities we can find actively. And if we can't find the communities, we need to build the communities, which is why I'm doing this in the first place.
