Exceptional Parents, Extraordinary Challenges
Being a parent is challenging enough - parenting a child with extraordinary challenges (non-neuro typical kiddos) can be overwhelming, debilitating and at times, downright depressing. Angie Shockley and Dave Gold bring their combined 70 years of real world experience - Angie as the founder of young adult transition programs and Certified Shamanic Practitioner; Dave as a successful attorney, business and spiritual mentor and father - to bring you practical, powerful solutions to your biggest parenting challenges Join us each week to discover how to navigate crisis, protect your own health and well-being, and create a family unit that is filled with love, creativity and deep, mutual respect no matter what life brings your way.
Exceptional Parents, Extraordinary Challenges
Navigating the Waves of Parenting: Finding Support and Growth Through Struggle
As the waves of parenting challenges rise high, it's the shared stories of struggle and triumph that keep us afloat. Casie Fariello, co-founder and CEO of Other Parents Like Me, joins us to share her wisdom on the transformative power of support groups for parents of children with mental health and substance issues. Through her personal journey and our candid conversation, we peel back the layers of parenting under pressure, highlighting the organization's pillars of boundaries, communication, self-regulation, and self-care, and how they serve as a compass through turbulent times.
Navigating the emotional labyrinth of shame and guilt as a parent can feel like a solitary journey. Yet, this episode paints a vivid picture of the collective experience, revealing how authenticity and vulnerability are vital in fostering healing communities. We share laughter and empathy while discussing the rollercoaster of emotions that come with embracing our children's unique paths. The tales of parental growth and the acceptance of imperfections remind us that there's solace in solidarity, and no script exists for the perfect parent.
We wrap up with the intimate realities of parenting stress, the nuances of co-parenting, and the importance of parental relationships amidst the family dynamics shaken by addiction and mental health. The episode outlines ways to engage with support networks, emphasizing their role in weathering the storm. Hear stories of heartbreak and hope, and understand how mistakes are not just missteps but also milestones on the path to becoming more present and compassionate guardians for our children. Casey's insights and experiences offer a beacon to those feeling adrift, reminding us that together, we can navigate the unpredictable waters of parenting.
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CODE: EXCEPTIONALPEC
Casie Fariello (she/her)
Chief Executive Officer,
Other Parents Like Me
casie@oplm.com
oplm.com
Calendly Link - Let's chat!
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Dave Gold dave@davegold.com
Show Engineered and Produced by: Keith Bishop bishop.keith@gmail.com
Hi everybody, Welcome to Exceptional Parents Extraordinary Challenges podcast. I'm Angie Shockley and I'm here with my podcasting partner in crime, Dave Gold. Hi, Dave, Good to see you.
Speaker 2:It's been a while, but it's good to see you.
Speaker 1:You're sitting outside again in that beautiful sky. It's not quite warm enough for me to be outside yet here in West Virginia.
Speaker 2:I got the life. I still got the two puppy dogs out here. I got the sky. I got you.
Speaker 1:As our listeners know, dave and I like to surprise each other with guests, and I will start by introducing our guests today. Today, we have Casey Ferriello, and Casey, I'm so glad to have you on. Welcome. You are someone new to my life, really. We met a few months ago at a conference and Casey is actually here joining us today from an organization called Other Parents Like.
Speaker 3:Me.
Speaker 1:And I have fallen in love with this concept and the things that you do, so I'd like to just give you a few minutes to just talk about what the organization is, how it came to be and who you are in that process.
Speaker 3:Sure so Other Parents Like Me offers 17 weekly support groups for parents who have kids struggling with their mental health and or substances. We do. The support group starts with a meditation to center us into the room and then we have all different kind of topics that our two peer parent facilitators lead on, such as a Ted Lasso video Nice or a poem, or something that we've read from psychology today or some other thing that really speaks to us, gets us to start maybe sharing things that we weren't ready to share with in regular therapy, marriage therapy or family therapy. We start to hear other people share some of the stuff that goes on for you, and then you hear some people say the things you thought you couldn't say. So that's a nice thing. We have live weekly talks, speaker talks with from all walks of life. We just last week had EMDR and somatic experiences talk and then, like, unlike a podcast, it goes beyond it because everybody gets to ask for 40 minutes and questions, which is really lovely, and then those are recorded. So those go behind the paywall so that anybody can go watch them later because it's live. You know what I'm talking about. Everybody can't necessarily come then, but they can watch later for sure. And then we have lots of resources to search.
Speaker 3:And who am I? I'm the CEO, I'm a co-founder of Other Parents Like Me, and I am a mom who first was a flight attendant for 26 years, retired doing this in 2021. We'd started it before that, in 2020. And I started a beta program at my son's program for two years until we launched in 2022. And I have three kids who have different struggles one with severe anxiety that had its own path, one with ADHD, some childhood trauma that led to substance use, and then my youngest with being part of the LGBTQ world and social anxiety. So I didn't have a straight path for any of them and I didn't know how to find a place that felt right for me.
Speaker 3:And so I created a place that felt right for me and I hear lots of people share that. I want to just be able to talk about anything or learn about things because the chaos behind my four walls, I feel so alone and I don't want to have to go to 10 different places in order. I don't have to go and see what you need to start a group, a substance use group, self harm I want to just go to one place that we can talk about boundaries, communication, self-regulation and self-care. That's our four pillars of support.
Speaker 1:Thank you for that and lots of things to flesh out with all of that. And since Dave is a new entity to you and vice versa, I will share with you that Dave is a parent with a young adult, a daughter, who has definitely had a challenging path, a challenging journey so far. And my first question is to you, dave how would it have been for you, way back when, if you had found something like this to be a part of?
Speaker 2:I'm going to go back and just say how grateful I am, not just for what you do, but the model that you're setting, because, as a parent of a challenging daughter which sounds like a euphemism for something, but that's good as any it's so easy to be victimized because it feels oh, she liked that, oh for sure, I'm going to turn that back over to you. Other than saying that to just be able to say no, I am going to take responsibility and bring everything I have into that. So I would, even just because I got the yes. Those of you who can't see it gave me a yes. Two fist up yes. So I would, even just because I got the yes those of you can't see it yes, to finish up, yes. So why was that such a yes for you?
Speaker 3:Oh, because I think some of it is ourselves that we tend to do that. We tend to do that to ourselves. My, my youngest, my middle child, with the childhood trauma that was actually me. We were helping him through both my older two. We had therapists and things all these experts and my son had explosive emotions from an early age and we were taught to wrap them in a taco by an occupational therapist and fast forward. He shared, eventually around 19, that it taught him that he was not allowed to have emotions in our house because he was the only one that happened to and he can feel suffocated from it. And that really resonated with me because I can take that gigantic hammer, dave, and beat myself up in the head and feel like a victim of the system. I see some of the dents. I see a few of the dents in there.
Speaker 2:a victim of the system. I see some of the dents.
Speaker 3:I see a few of the dents in there, so that's just like one example where I was like, yes, yeah, you get stuck there and it's no place to be.
Speaker 1:That's no place to be.
Speaker 1:And I know Dave and I have become very good friends.
Speaker 1:We've worked together for several years now and I've seen Dave with that hammer beating himself over the head and the what ifs and what if this had, or what if that had, or what if I had, and I think that I don't think I know that. There were times along his journey where there was really not a ton of support or even anybody to go and talk to. And in some of our other podcasts we've talked with parents about how difficult it is when you're the one in the family who has a challenging child or children, or you're the one in your neighborhood who has these challenges and nobody else really understands it. People can say nice things to you to try to be supportive, but they don't really get it. They don't really understand what's happening. And I feel, like other parents like me, that's a ready-made group of people who already get it. Building the relationship is like another level, but you're already stepping into a safe zone when you join one of those groups. You want to talk a little bit about that?
Speaker 3:One of the things that resonated with me as you were sharing that is that the parents one of our themes is we all say we're unshockable. Dave, I bet you've met people who do get it and understand your journey and you could say anything and everything and they just go yep and shake their head and nod their head and go. Been there, done that, heard that, yeah.
Speaker 2:And, I think, just to follow up, answer the question that Angie posted before I got taken, before I was so taken aback in the right, best possible way by your celebration, is that, as much as for my daughter, it was for me, it'd be for me. First time that I really connected was when my daughter went to wilderness and they had a parents weekend. I thought, oh my God, there's other parents. But then you're actually in this together and for you, not only creating the cohort but creating a space of vulnerability, authenticity, just that is just invaluable. And the other one other thing that I mentioned, that I'm really happy to know this exists, is that afterwards I want to follow up.
Speaker 2:I made friends. They didn't want anything to do. I think you go back to your own little world and whether you're embarrassed, you have a vulnerability backlash, or whether you're just too busy, you can't just pick up where you've left. You may hit a space of authenticity and communion, but you can't pick it up and I would assume, when you correct me if I'm wrong or go off on it if I'm right, that you're. This is it's actually building, rather than just being a one-off experience.
Speaker 3:you're actually continuing to build a field and a culture of trust and vulnerability yes, we have some people who've been with us since the pilot programs, so so they've been with us for four years and many of the folks who we launched with in 2022 have been with us for two years now and that tells you a lot. Because, david, I experienced the same thing. One of my children went to a program that we really connected, but we only did one family weekend. That was it, and we tried to keep connected through whatsapp. But as other kids start, as their kids started to struggle again or something like this, and they just stopped communicating and it was.
Speaker 3:It's interesting to me. It's a common, but if you get those who take the opportunity, we have a lot whose kids are still struggling. We have peer parents whose kids are still struggling. I think that makes a big difference because they see the peer parents still showing up even though their kids started like five years ago and they're still getting help. That's also showing up um or and as a model of oh okay, you don't just end this just because you're. You may be embarrassed because your kid is back with struggling. I don't know what, what or the kid is. Don't talk about my struggles anymore. Can we just talk past? And if that happens as well, and that's why it's anonymous. It's confidential so that you can still talk about it even when your kids don't want to hear about it anymore.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I just want to add one more little thing and I'll be quiet for a long time she doesn't believe it, but you'll see I can do it Is that you get isolated, and I think some of that self-isolation part I was just thinking it's almost like when someone loses a child, you don't want to be reminded. It's almost like the other parents who have kids that aren't. They don't want to know. So there's a self-isolation. I think there's an unconscious social isolation that you have an antidote for. So, angie, I'm going to put the timer on.
Speaker 1:I don't want you to be quiet. I think this is important. I think you have an experience that so fits in with what Casey's created here, and I and I have several questions, different directions. I wanted to go, but one of the questions that I have just in the makeup of the parents who are participating in your group are there any kind of requirements or anything like that? To be more specific, does your child need to be in a treatment program in order for you to participate in your groups?
Speaker 3:No, actually that's my mission is to have people start to join when the when it starts to happen at home. Wouldn't that be nice if parents actually felt they had a place to go to when they first initially started with therapy? I had my older, two were in therapy for a long time and I was like, oh, I'm the only one who's doing this and that's important to me, that people get to be in the beginning of the journey and it doesn't mean that they're just going to go totally off the rails.
Speaker 3:It may not, because they're getting support early and learning some tools and learning some things to question themselves and hearing some ways to reflect. And maybe they want to get into therapy now because they're hearing like, oh, that with me. But they might change their communication and in the family already before they have to go to extremes, to an IOP, to a PHP, to a wilderness and we did do wilderness and we did a therapy boarding school for my one child and feeling of watching someone in the beginning and seeing someone over here on the other end and their kid is doing well or still struggling, that's really helpful to the person in the beginning because they go, oh so this is not, as this is not a straight path. This is not like we're going to be once and done and this is fixed. This is going to take a while and it's going to take a lot of work from my part, not just my kid's part and I think that's an important value or piece of being able to see people on the whole stretch of the journey.
Speaker 3:And, david, I was just thinking about what you said and what you said, angie, is that I was reflecting on that. A parent who's doing really well, their kid is doing really well also struggles being on the group because they're like they feel guilty because their kid is doing well and others have gone home and been home for a couple of years and aren't so there. It does come on both sides of the fence and being able to be there in that uncomfortable because parents look to your hope by being there and do it with your kid doing well and it's uncomfortable. But if you can stay in that you give people hope that it's possible to for recovery and whatever that recovery is all right, that's it.
Speaker 2:I gotta respond. Okay, it'll be quick, because I'm just keep thinking again of just all the. Sometimes you don't even know all the gifts you're giving someone until other people reflect the gifts back to you, and one of those gifts is when you're struggling. We were older, I was like 49 years older than my daughter. You don't have a frame of reference, that's the thing you don't know. You don't land, you're just floating out in space. That's the thing you don't know. You don't land, you're just floating out in space. And the more reference points that you can provide for a parent, parents of a struggling child, you no longer feel like, oh my God, I'm the only one and you don't even know how those reference points are going to inform you in ways you could never imagine, because they're all in here somewhere.
Speaker 2:Oh, she did it again, I got to keep talking.
Speaker 1:I keep getting. I keep getting knees from her. It's awesome, no, it's so true though it's. I'm on the I'm on the program side of this and I've done parent weekends, parent workshops, parent coaching, like all the things, and I've been doing this for a lot of years and I've always known that parent piece is so critical to the success of the adolescent or the young adult. My world right now it's young adult, but making sure that there is that connection and that parents have that opportunity not to just connect once but to stay connected, how important that is.
Speaker 1:And it is true that this is a journey. There's nothing about this. There's not a beginning and an end. It is a hundred percent about the journey as a family, for the adolescent, for the young adult. It's all the journey and different points on the journey. You still need support, no matter what.
Speaker 1:One of the things that really dropped in for me, as both of you all were talking and I know that, casey, you said it, and Dave, I've worked with you on this is the guilt that comes in as a parent when your child is struggling right, and shame shame can come into that as well. You don't want to be judged. You're judging yourself enough so you don't want to be judged, and then you put all of that on yourself. And if you do all of that in some kind of isolated way or feel like you're in a vacuum, then your mental health as a parent deteriorates and that has a horrible effect on your child or your children, who happen to be struggling or not. And so you know, that's one of the things I just I'd like to hear you talk a little bit about that part of that parenting journey, the shame and the guilt that comes up for you as a parent.
Speaker 3:Wow, I want to. I have two, two parts to reflect. As you were talking getting the parent coach, the getting the marriage and family therapist, the program, having some sort of parent group what happens is you're still in isolation. It's still in the parent coach I'm the only one who's ever said this to this parent coach, or I'm the only one who's ever said this In the parent group. You're still in the bubble of that program. By going to something that expands out and you can see how not alone you are, how many people have different paths that they're doing. That's helpful and the shame. I'm going to tell a story that it's hard for me to share, but when my son the one who has ADHD was in first grade, I'm holding space for you.
Speaker 3:Okay he had. There were two substitute teachers that year and he and his best friend got into a fistfight out in the playground which happens amongst best friends because they feel that they can do it and their friend's going to forgive them Whatever's happening. You don't know. I got a phone call from my son's teacher because the teacher next door had taken him out of her classroom and was screaming at the top of her lungs at him for five minutes about how horrible he was, what's wrong with him? Why is he behaving that way? How could you do this damage to your friends and we're going to turn you in all this kind of stuff. And that teacher went and brought my son in and said we're all here to support you. This is not you're not a bad kid that that substitute.
Speaker 3:I knew about that substitute's life because she had a child in high school who was struggling significantly with substances. He was running away all the time. He was in and out of rehabs and boy did I have judgment on her, like how dare you take your crap from your home life and put it on my son and what's wrong with you as a parent because you have this going on and then fast forward that?
Speaker 2:was me.
Speaker 3:It was sophomore and senior year for my son and it was a several years of fighting and that shame that I felt and that guilt that I felt that I put on that parent until I understood. That's what connected to you. Before I I was like because that that came in my head am I that bad of a parent? Am I doing this to people outside? Am I, am I awful? I thought of her and I just gave her such forgiveness for that journey. After that, after my own journey, and that's what connected me back to your first thing of until you are that parent, until you've had this happen. No matter how much we describe it, david, no matter how much we describe it to people who don't have this happen in their lives, they still will tell you things like you just have to ground them more, or you just have to ground them more, or you just have to hold them accountable, you have to be more firm, or whatever they say. They say all sorts of things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a you know what it, what it reminds, brings to mind is with an answer I've taught it's a death you've lost, it's a death of a dream, it's a death of a future. It's there, we got the hands again and that it's a death of a dream, it's a death of a future. It's there, we got the hands again. And then it's like someone saying I know how you lose a child. They come up and they're giving you advice. There's no words. No one knows there's no words, and maybe the only words are I know there's no words.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's one of the things. When you first started talking, casey, you talked about how you open up with a poem or a reading or a grounding or meditation or something like that, and that's how I live my life and I think it's so important, just like you being so incredibly vulnerable and telling that story and being able to hold that space for you to do that. I think that's really important and I know that's what you do in your groups. I know that's what you do when you have these situations and I'm glad I appreciate you going to that level of vulnerability, because I think it's important for people who are listening to this podcast, especially parents, to understand that level of vulnerability is real and it's important and they're not the only ones.
Speaker 1:All the things that you've said that level of feeling shame and guilt and wherever it comes from, and like you talking about that span of time and having grace and forgiveness for a teacher who made a bad decision with your child that's huge to be able to go there, because that would infuriate most parents to have something like that happen to their child, right, but then when you walk a mile in those shoes, you begin to understand where that lashing out comes from, and I it's shame.
Speaker 1:Shame is the absolute lowest frequency. The only frequency lower than shame is death, and shame is such a hard thing to overcome, to let go of, in whatever method someone chooses to do it, whether it's through talk, therapy. I have people who come to me and do energy healing around shame. Whatever method is, I'm in total support of because it's not an easy journey to go through and you obviously have an incredible sense of humor. I knew that when I met you in person. I see it again today and Dave has an incredible sense of humor and I know that's a coping skill for both of you.
Speaker 1:And it is for most of the parents that I work with, I often say I've never met a bad parent. I haven't met a bad parent. I've met a lot of parents thousands at this point in my career and every one of them, I believe, made the best decision that they can make in the moment that they were in with what they had, the resources, the knowledge, all of it. So I don't feel like I've ever worked with a bad parent. I feel like I've worked with really injured and broken parents. I feel like I've worked with desperate parents and really sad parents and seeing them be able to move forward in their journey to me is incredibly gratifying. And for them to be able to separate themselves and Dave mentioned it and you gave him the two fists in the air again that it is like a death. It is like grieving the loss of what you thought you had, so you can be fully present with the child that you do have. Whatever that journey is going to be, but there is.
Speaker 2:That's really well said, beautifully said.
Speaker 1:Thank you. There is a grieving process that goes along with that and in that grieving process, just like any grieving process, that's where a lot of the shame and the guilt, a lot of the shame and the guilt, and so when we're those talking about those very hard emotions and those very hard situations from the perspective, from your perspective and the perspective of other parents like me, when you have a parent like that, do you have specific ways that you help? Are there certain additional services for them, or is this just a safe place for them to be able to truly step into those emotions and move through them?
Speaker 3:So we do have a mentor program, so our peer parents will take on a few people who may want to just talk a little one-on-one. We do not give advice. We do not allow bashing of programs of people. You can share that things are awful and you're having a hard time. We can navigate through and hear you and you're having a hard time. We can navigate through and hear you and validate and share our own experiences.
Speaker 3:We try to experience our hope, help and healing, how we gained hope, how we found help that worked and how we are feeling that we're heading towards a more healed space in the family for ourselves. And that's very important to me we learning. That's why we have the speaker talks coming in, truly getting educated, being able to ask a true expert, not just a peer. A true expert hey, this is what's happening. That's another way that we help someone.
Speaker 3:And then we have people that I've talked with places. I've worked with places that I've gotten to know, that we put on our support directory or our support directory or people that have been right now just vetted by me. But from there, but you get to know and you ask the people who are working in these programs, working as therapists working in different ways ways, find out their why, how did they get here, why did they get there, what was their path? And you hear them and you know where you're like. Oh, this person's truly here and present with me, present with my kid, and that's important to me and you can tell the one who's salesy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yes, you can, yes, you can. That authenticity is so very important and I think it's part of what makes the safe space for vulnerability is authenticity. Dave talks about authenticity and vulnerability a lot in his own practice, but it is. It's so incredibly important that authenticity piece and all of my experiences with you and other people in your organization, I can say that's one thing I feel is very a common thread is that authenticity and they're for the right reasons.
Speaker 3:I had another question.
Speaker 2:Dave has something I can tell. One of the things that occurred to me with one of the dynamics that it's that I could see the tremendous, some tremendous value. What you're doing it is just the stress that it places on the relationship between the parents themselves, and so seldom do you have a forum where that maybe you could just speak to that. What people don't understand in terms of the stress it has and how, just anywhere, you want to go with that.
Speaker 3:Oh, it is a big stress. So that's why we have some dedicated groups. We have two men's groups so the men can actually sit and talk on their own part and how they experience the journey. We have a solo mom's group, and that's important, plus the women's group.
Speaker 3:But a solo mom's group is not just the divorced mom or a widow, but also someone who is not having a co-parent. It doesn't matter what the co-parent is, whether or not they're the same, a same sex couple, a heterosexual couple there, or that they're not even like living together anymore, and that happens to where one is. Yeah, I'm not agreeing with anything that you've done and we're divorced, so I have control and that's a part of the journey that we really try to be mindful of, and I think that's one of the reasons why we have some speaker talks on that, like on divorce, on parenting, and my intent is to have some parental alienation, parent talks, because that happens and it's so awful when you're listening to one of the parents discuss that way and how much of a struggle it is and how alienated they feel from their children because their children is living with that one other parent and they don't get that time to be with them and show up in a different way.
Speaker 3:I love that you brought that up and we and some of our peer parents are struggling with this on their own, so they can really share and one thing I want, want to.
Speaker 2:It doesn't need to be said, but I say it Isn't it great to not pretend like you have all the answers? Yes, can I do this again? Yes, it's just true. There's no answer. What are you doing? You're not the answer person. You don't have the one. All you're bringing is love and fellowship. That's basically what you're providing, and then you could do that.
Speaker 3:And that's more than enough, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I, my Keith, will edit this out. The other question, it was a really good one. It's still out there. It'll drop in at some point, but okay gosh. So now we know what happens when we record two podcasts back to back. Angie forgets her question. I. One of the things I want to make sure that we talk about is how someone can get involved with other parents like me. What are the steps? What does it cost? How do they reach out? Can you share that with our listeners please?
Speaker 3:Sure, so they go to OPLM. Super easy, just all the first letters, oplmcom. They can go to the Join Us page. So there's a couple options. There's the premium, which is $49 a month or $539 for the year. If you go to all 17 support groups in the month, you're paying less than 60 cents. And I did when the beginning was told to go to Allenville and I always had to fork over a dollar or two for all those meetings. So it's less than even doing that. And then, if you can stay at that level, you get two weeks for free to try it out. And I will provide to you, angie, a code that you can offer your folks later for two months if they want. So they can try that first.
Speaker 1:That's awesome, thank you.
Speaker 3:You're welcome, so I'll have that to you when you're ready. Okay, and then they either continue at that premium or they can go to basic. They can shovel in between. Basic is just the recording, whereas premium gets the recordings as well, or we never drop anybody off Someone's. Yeah, I don't need this right now. They just go to the free membership, so the live speaker talks are available for anyone, anywhere, any walk of life. They just go on our Facebook page or Instagram page and you'll see what those are. Or sign up for our newsletter and you'll get the non-member and member sign up, so you can always go to those. You just won't be able to see the recordings. And you get all the resources for free and then you can just pop up and down what you need at the time.
Speaker 1:That's about as easy as it gets, and I've explored your website a little bit myself, which it is very user-friendly I am not the tech person here and so it's very user-friendly and I would definitely suggest that our listeners go take a look at it and see if there may be something there that could be helpful to you. This is a tough world that we all live in Different levels right now for all three of us, but still in the same therapeutic community working with clients, working with families, and one of the hardest things about being in this field is experiencing a loss of an adolescent or a young adult, and it is something that I've been with parents during this process, and I'm just wondering if you have a specific group or specific resources for parents who have lost children to overdoses or suicide or accidental death those kinds of things for a parent who's lost a child.
Speaker 3:So we do have resources on the website for when the toolkit we call it. We don't have a grief based group, but I will say that I also volunteer. So of course I'm not just doing one thing, I also volunteer for the Partnership to End Addiction. So if it is a an overdose, they do have a grief group on there that. I do recommend and when we're ready we will have a grief group.
Speaker 3:My son on his journey has lost three people from his program later on, like two or three years after and it's really hard and I know a mom whose kid had been sober for 10 years and just one flipped once and happened to have fentanyl in it and he's gone. So, even when things are going well, and you think this is great and same with someone with suicidal ideation, unfortunately, I do have familiarity with eating disorders and they have a high lethality as well, because you don't find out until later the damage they've done to their body and they could come up with something with their heart or something with that, and it's a tough. It's just. That's why it's never an ending journey. Uh, and yes, we do intend on having that, we just don't have that just yet yeah but that's.
Speaker 1:You've given us another good resource for that and certainly you have the knowledge and understanding and awareness of that, and I still believe that the groups would be good for parents, regardless of where they are on the journey, even if they have lost a child, because it's still going to be a group of parents that understand where you're coming from, and that's a tough thing to find, no matter what.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it also just points to something. You don't have to put your fists up, you can put them up beforehand. We'll do a prophylactic fist pump. Okay, he thinks they're the only. Their situation is so unique.
Speaker 2:Everyone thinks there's never been anyone like this before and there's just something about yes, it's true, but there's just something about the universality and the commonality of that through all the spectrum of whatever the situation is, whatever the loss is. That helps, just helps to put in perspective, and I think also we talked about the victimization part it just helps reduce that as well. I had a question about just parallel processing how you're dealing with one part of it, so you can just take that and run with it we have.
Speaker 3:We've actually had chrissy positech come speak up, speak on the pot on our speaker, talk twice. Um, I I just, uh, love chrissy. I think she's's great and she has done some supporting for us as well. We're going to a conference for the American School Counselor Association and she's given me a couple books to be able to make that awareness to counselors. So I'm excited about that. And, yes, some parents are so resistant to the parallel process.
Speaker 2:Do you want to explain what that is? Because I used it without defining it.
Speaker 3:Oh sure. So the parallel process is, instead of pulling your child or pushing your child if I pull you this way, you're going to get better, if I push you this way, I'm going to get better Instead, you're walking alongside your child and you're doing your own work, and they're doing their own work to, overall, improve the whole family system by both of you navigating through that together.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Chrissy. I was just at the Outdoor Behavioral Health Wilderness Symposium, the regional symposium, and Chrissy was the keynote.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 1:I've used that book for years. It's one of the number one books recommended to parents in any therapeutic program, and so that was the first time I got to see her speak and I really enjoyed it. And it is such an important concept and all of the services that you're providing. It falls right into that, because it doesn't matter where your kid is on their journey of healing, parents still have to do their own work, and it's not the kid's work, and it's not the parent trying to do the kid's work, and it's certainly not the parent trying to make sure the kid is happy and content in their life.
Speaker 1:That does not solve the problem. So, truly, that parallel process, it's not smooth sailing all the time. It's bumpy and it requires parents and we were talking about the guilt and shame earlier it requires parents to wade into that and let go of it and understand that it's not about feeling guilt or shame. It's about creating space for your child to be able to grow and heal, and the only way that can happen is if you, as a parent, also grow and heal on that same journey.
Speaker 3:And the only way that can happen is if you, as a parent, also grow and heal on that same journey, or a longer length of treatment six to 12 months, or whatever is. You don't want to wait to do your work until they get home. You want to have started it. I know you're tired, I know you're exhausted, I know it's been chaos in your house, but you need to start to learn how to communicate One.
Speaker 3:Any siblings that are in the house are going to benefit from your change, and our youngest child did not go just as ever done a therapist and we have the best communication skills with him because we learn so much, and he's the one who calls us the most. But that's an important part is you want that family system that's still at home, even Even David, just as having a single child, you have just a single child you and your I think you're. Are you still married? I didn't even ask that question, but you and yourself, in a relationship with the ex, you need to figure out how you guys are doing this together. You need to figure out your own different communication skills for yourself at home so that when the child comes back, you are already changed and then you can start to be in step with them, as they have changed while they were gone.
Speaker 2:And this is one of my big priorities. We had a guest on, we did a podcast before and he was he's a very successful attorney that's divorcing himself from his practice for lots of reasons, but mainly family reasons, and he told the story that he was in the car with his two kids and he asked they're like 9 and 11, something like that. He asked one what he was going to do and he told him. And then the other child interrupted and said no, you're going to be just like dad, you're going to go to work at a job you hate, stay in it forever for the money. So you don't really that. Again, that's a caricature, but that's what you don't realize. That is exactly the message. You think, oh, I'm going to fix the kid, I'm going to fix the kid, I'm going to fix the kid. And it's so much easier to pretend you're under the illusion you're fixing anybody, but let alone your kid, rather than just what am I actually? What am I modeling? What am I manifesting energetically? I've told it before. I'm going to tell it real quick because it's a good news story.
Speaker 2:You have that one which is oh my God, you cringe, but I was at and my daughter was in. She'd been to wilderness, then she was in a treatment program and they had a parent's weekend and my ex-wife and I would switch she'd go for the fall, I go for the spring, or whatever. And they had us sitting around and they was about vulnerability and they said dads, I want you to turn to your daughters and I want you to tell them something that really makes you feel vulnerable. And I said I just basically apologize for being such a crappy dad. And she just said dad, I don't see that way at all.
Speaker 2:She said I just watch the way you deal with people and I watch the way people go. I watch the decisions that you make. I watch your courageousness. I never said any of that to her. That's what. Whatever, whoever you are, that's what they are, that's what they're picking up, that's the and as angie. And I thought that's the field they're living in, that's the water they're swimming in. And it is so much easier to just keep working on them instead of really taking yourself on in all the right ways. All right, that was my soapbox.
Speaker 1:I'm gonna go no, no, and I had the great honor of watching dave go through a lot of this journey, um with his daughter, and he was one of those dads that the parallel process, those parallel lanes, were doing this a lot of the time and I got to see him actually do the work to get in his lane, in his own lane, and then how much better his communication is with his daughter continues to be how he gives her the space to be who she is, and he said on this podcast many times she's absolutely perfect the way she is. It's not about who I wanted her to be or what I wanted her to be or how I wanted her to be what I hoped and dreamed for her. She's perfect just the way she is, and accepting that keeps you in that parallel process. And it's not beautiful all the time. It's life is messy and I think that it's just so important for parents to know, yeah, you got to do your work.
Speaker 1:I'm a parent. I've got two adult children and two stepsons who are also adults now, and so I'm a parent. I've been doing this for a very long time and, yeah, you make mistakes and I look back and, gosh, I can get the hammer out still after all these years and I have a grandson now and so I watch with my grandson and I know so much more than when his mom was born, when I was 22. But I know so much more now than I knew then and I can go back and be like, gosh, wow, I really screwed that up. But then the same thing, my kids will tell me, hey, we think we turned out okay, we think you did okay. And so I just think for parents, you do feel like you're isolated, you do feel like you're going to void, regardless of where you're at in your parenting process. And yeah, if you're divorced, then you're you got to be. You're in those times where you have to go with the other parent, has to show up and all the other parents, the other grandparents and the whole thing, and it can be uncomfortable. And my mom I've said this on this podcast before my mom told me several times you're really not very good at marriage, you're pretty good at divorce, but you're really not very good at marriage. And she was right for a long time. Now I am about to celebrate 15 years with my husband right now and it's almost 20 years together, but I had two failed marriages prior to that other, but I had two failed marriages prior to that and I.
Speaker 1:One of the things that I am proud of in my life is that I always put my feelings to the side. I had a lot of Christmas mornings where I was by myself and I cried, and I had a lot of times where I was really worried about my kids Not that they had bad parents on the other side, it wasn't that. I just was worried because I knew they weren't. They weren't expressing themselves, they weren't, they weren't getting the emotional support and things like that they needed. But I always put my own feelings, my own thoughts, to the side and allow them to have the experience that I thought was going to be most helpful for them. And when they were little, it was not putting extra stress on them, because it wasn't about me, it wasn't about their dad, it was about them, and I'm really proud of the fact that I did that.
Speaker 1:And I still think that I screwed up a lot of things when my kids were little and we've done the therapy. None of my kids have gone away to treatment, but it was by the grace of God, and so I've been in that place as a parent myself and there was a lot of time, many years, where I didn't talk to anybody about it. I kept it very internalized and didn't and it was shame it was. I didn't want to be the bad parent and I didn't want to be seen as a bad parent. And sometimes I was seen as a bad parent because I didn't step in and change something that maybe wasn't correct or what always trying to say it's best for my kids not to be stressed.
Speaker 1:So I guess my point is it doesn't matter what your parental journey is. There's always a challenge. There's always going to be that time that you look at yourself critically and you don't know what you don't know when you don't know it, and then you do know what you know when you know it. And hindsight is 20-20. And none of us can go back and do anything differently and none of us can predict what's going to happen in the future Absolutely we cannot. And so being really present in that process as a parent, wherever you are on that journey, I think is so incredibly important. And no matter. Like you said, you've got great communication skills with your youngest, and the youngest calls the most, and I immediately went to huh, which one of my kids calls the most. Did I screw up that communicate? So it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter how many years I've done this work or how many times I'm coaching other parents or what is there?
Speaker 1:still. There's still that moment of wow, did I do that? Okay, and so I do. That's another thing that I think about other parents like me. I just think it's a great place to be able to share those kinds of thoughts and to hear from somebody else who's having that same thought. Even now that I have all these adult children and I'm a grandmother, I still am in that. But did I do that right or did I not do that right? Did I tell them the right thing? And there's no such thing as a perfect parent, the same as there's no such thing as a bad parent. There's no such thing as a perfect parent, and so striving for that is is unrealistic, and all we do is put a lot of pressure on ourselves to be something we can never achieve. I just I feel like that parallel process is just such an important part of all of this. We do our work. Whatever our work is, we need to step in and do it, and you're providing yet another opportunity to do that, which I think is really awesome.
Speaker 2:Thank you I have something, too, that I want to add to, since we're throwing all these flowers at you. You deserve them, and more. One is part of the parallel processing is don't let your pride get in the way of looking for help oh my gosh, I'm gonna do this again, yeah yeah, I was gonna say ho a ho.
Speaker 2:I think it stands on its own. But you think, oh, I can do it myself, I don't need help. But and you have a million reasons but it's pride, it's just stinking pride. And that is I. I don't like to use this word often. It is, let's say, it's self-centered, it's self-absorbed, to put your own ego in front of the needs of you, because there's a million things you're doing for them, and the most important thing you can do for them, which is to get help, is the one thing you won't do. So that is that's for everyone. And then the other thing is something that angie said. She's got a really sweet testimonial on my website and she talked about how, in this, in the context, it was about dads are afraid to reach out to me because they don't want to admit it. But he said, dave's about the softest place you can land. In case, I think I give that crown to you.
Speaker 2:I think if you're just the softest place you can land, and so I'm just joining my voice with angie's that don't let the pride and just know that you are going. It's a feather bed and and we all need a little feather bed after the the bed of thorns that we've been sleeping on self-imposed most of the time.
Speaker 1:Right, we're coming to the end of our hour casey, but I want to just give you an opportunity for to share anything that we haven't asked about, anything that hasn't come up, anything else that you have one of the things that I've seen and discovered on this path is I'm stronger and my kids are actually stronger.
Speaker 3:I truly believe it because I've gotten help for myself. I've worked through my own childhood trauma. I'm still working through it at 55. And I know how to lean on others and that was really hard to know that I could lean on others, that I could lean on others and just cracking that bit open to, like Dave just said, acceptance of help. It's amazing how many people say I've read your newsletter, because I write the newsletters, I'm very vulnerable. In my newsletter. I've read your toolkit, I've read your this, I've read your this. I've come to the speaker talks and they've been with us for months and they finally decide okay, I'm going into a support group and the first time they walk in there and they're sitting there, they go. I don't know what's up in so long.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I think that's a great place to end because it really does show that level of vulnerability, how important it is and how soft that feather bit is that they've talked about. Yeah, thank you. Thank you for what you're doing, thank you for joining us on this podcast we may have to have a version two or a follow up or something to see how things are going. I thought I thought I thought of all my other questions now that we're running out of time, Okay.
Speaker 2:I just want you to, angie, I put the juju on you so I can ask more questions, so I'm taking that that was broken. Now you can ask whatever you want now that we're going.
Speaker 1:Oh, thanks, thanks, Dave. This has been really awesome. Thank you so much for sharing and we will put your contact information, the website, all of that information, the code for our listeners to get two months to see, to try it out and see how you like other parents like me. Oplmcom is the website and we'll have all of the information in our show notes. Thank you, casey. Thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker 2:Great.
Speaker 1:Casey, thank you, we'll see you. See you next time, you bet. Thank you guys.
