Exceptional Parents, Extraordinary Challenges
Being a parent is challenging enough - parenting a child with extraordinary challenges (non-neuro typical kiddos) can be overwhelming, debilitating and at times, downright depressing. Angie Shockley and Dave Gold bring their combined 70 years of real world experience - Angie as the founder of young adult transition programs and Certified Shamanic Practitioner; Dave as a successful attorney, business and spiritual mentor and father - to bring you practical, powerful solutions to your biggest parenting challenges Join us each week to discover how to navigate crisis, protect your own health and well-being, and create a family unit that is filled with love, creativity and deep, mutual respect no matter what life brings your way.
Exceptional Parents, Extraordinary Challenges
A Counselor's Transformation: Cultivating Empathy Amidst Sorrow
When the unimaginable strikes, it can peel back layers of ourselves we never knew existed. Amanda Rossi, a lawyer by trade, shares her heart-rending journey of losing her young daughter to pediatric cancer, a battle that unearthed an unexpected wellspring of empathy within her, challenging the oft-held belief that legal minds are devoid of emotion. Her personal narrative weaves through the delicate art of balancing professional poise with the raw vulnerability of grief, offering listeners a rare glimpse into the transformative power of human connection and resilience.
Embarking on this profoundly personal quest, Amanda uncovers the intricacies of managing emotional boundaries while nurturing one's empathic nature. Our conversation traverses the landscape of sorrow and strength, where the act of existing serves as a beacon to others navigating similar dark waters. Through Amanda's story, we bear witness to the enduring human capacity to harbor both joy and despair, and the essential support systems that buoy us as we traverse the unpredictable seas of loss.
The episode culminates in an exploration of faith shaken and redefined in the wake of tragedy. Amanda speaks candidly about her spiritual evolution post-loss, a journey marked by questioning, anger, and ultimately, a personalized reconciliation with belief. The poignant practice of channeling grief into charitable endeavors paints a picture of a community united in remembrance and action. Join us as we honor the complex tapestry of emotion and the indomitable spirit that continues to thrive, even in the wake of life's harshest trials.
Here is the link to the fundraiser mentioned in the show.
https://www.classy.org/event/carmella-classic-2024/e536390
At Canaan Valley Spa and Wellness Center, our mission is to provide our clients with a serene and rejuvenating experience that promotes wellness of the mind, body, and spirit. We strive to create a welcoming and peaceful environment where our guests can escape from the stresses of daily life and find relaxation and balance.
www.canaanvalleyspawv.com
https//www.livingmindfullyaware.com
Canaan Valley Spa is a true destination space in Davis, West Virginia.
www.canaanvalleyspawv.com
Angie Shockley mindfulangie@gmail.com
http://www.livingmindfullyaware.com
Dave Gold dave@davegold.com
Show Engineered and Produced by: Keith Bishop bishop.keith@gmail.com
Hello everyone and welcome to the Exceptional Parents Extraordinary Challenges podcast, which I always think it's a victory when I get that right. I don't know how long I used to mess it up. I'm here today with two people, one a very old friend and one a very new friend who feels like an old friend, and I'll start off with my podcasting partner, angie, and you and I are both home. The wandering jew and the wandering shaman are trying to find their way back home we are both home for the time being.
Speaker 1:Yes, and as we say, as we like to brag, that we don't inform the other. We don't admit, amanda, that I don't tell angie what I'm gonna do.
Speaker 1:she doesn't tell me what I'm going to do. We just know that we get some extraordinary guests. I was thinking just when I was setting up this morning, that one of the great things about having this podcast is that I get to meet new friends, like we did with Casey last week. It's just doing this beautiful work and it's like a discovery. Then there's people that you have a relationship with and you get to go much deeper, and that's the case here I have. Our guest today is Amanda Rossi, who I got to meet at a webinar that I put on for lawyers a Zoom webinar. Remember the topic, amanda?
Speaker 3:It was lawyers who are empaths.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's great. Okay, yeah, that was a winner. You think about it. It's an interesting topic and lawyers, you have to be so objective and it's sometimes seemingly hard for a kid to have a heart. And I attracted a lot of heartfelt people, including Amanda, and Amanda shared a beautiful and empathic and, dare I say, and I would say even heartbreaking kind of vignette or chapter from her life, which certainly set the tone for what we were doing, and I wanted to talk more about that here and also to just bring this, because what we do every week is talk about the challenges that we have as parents and also to just bring this, because what we do every week is talk about the challenges that we have as parents and, amanda, I don't think I'm being hyperbolic when I say that you face that probably the biggest challenge that we parents fear the most.
Speaker 1:I think so, First of all thank you for coming, thank you for sharing, thank you for being so open and, first of all, tell us a little about yourself. I see a few legal degrees I've already. You know spoiler alert she's a lawyer. As I say, she's one of these lawyers that threatens to give lawyers a good name, but tell us a little bit about your professional background, and then let's talk a little bit about what connected us.
Speaker 3:Sure, my name is Amanda Rossi, I'm from Buffalo, new York, and I'm a partner at a medium-sized law firm here in Buffalo.
Speaker 3:My primary area of practice is medical malpractice defense, so I represent physicians and hospitals and other medical professionals. I've been doing it for about 13 years here, so the reason that Dave and I connected was because I was on some sort of email list of his. But the title of lawyers who are empaths particularly caught my attention, because I never considered myself to be an empath until my three-year-old daughter died of pediatric cancer right at the height of the pandemic in October of 2020. And it completely changed me as a person and as how I see things. And as I found that empathic side of me to be unlocked, I found that there were many things in my practice that it challenged or changed or gave me some real insight on. So I was really attracted to this webinar, which was for people who also felt that they were lawyers and also empaths, which to some may seem perhaps an oxymoron, but there were more of us than I even expected to see.
Speaker 1:Wow, you stole one of my lines the impact of lawyers in the world.
Speaker 2:Anyway, yeah, I want to say, amanda, thank you, thank you for sharing that and being so vulnerable and willing to to share what your journey has been to come on the podcast, that I really want to honor that and let you know I'm holding space for you. And one thing that I will say you're welcome. One thing that I will say is I don't see empathic lawyer as an oxymoron. I'm going to argue with the two attorneys on this podcast. I feel like to be an effective attorney, you almost have to be empathic, you almost have to be able to tap into that intuitive knowing, because there are all the facts, there are all the black and white facets of the law and then there's the human factor and for me, I would want an attorney that I felt was also empathic. So I'll just throw that out there.
Speaker 2:But, that being said and we can go back to arguing that if you want to, dave, we can go back to that later, but I would love to hear you say obviously, that is a tragedy that's going to change your life, that's going to change anyone who walks through that and walks that journey, and for some people, life that's going to change anyone who walks through that and walks that journey and for some people it absolutely destroys them. They're unable to continue down that path when something to that degree occurs for them. So I get the feeling that you've walked through the fire and you say that it changed you and you're continuing your journey, but it's in a much different way, is my guess. Do you want to talk a little bit about that?
Speaker 3:Yeah sure, thinking about it just destroys some people. I would say that I've been fortunate in most of my life and I've never faced a tragedy of this level and that's true of most people but nothing that would even ever come close. And of course, you just you never think it's going to happen to you. You read these stories and you think that's someone else's life and that'll never happen to me. And then it does, and it's just so jarring.
Speaker 3:And when my daughter died, I think there was a very long time where I was in a very dark place like that, and I can see how people find themselves unable to get out of it.
Speaker 3:For me, the thing that was really the catalyst to coming out on the other side of it a little bit more was meeting other bereaved parents and connecting with that group of people, because when you've suffered a tragedy like this, it's so unbelievably lonely.
Speaker 3:The people that you have relied on your whole life to be your support system do their best, but they haven't lived it and they don't really understand it, even though they're trying so hard.
Speaker 3:It's not their fault. But the second I got into a room and it was at a bereaved parents retreat put on by a local charity organization. Here it was like I could finally let out a deep breath. Here it was like I could finally let out a deep breath and that was really significant, because I think that was the first time that I started to understand this sort of other side to me of being empathic and that aspect of it, being that I feel and Dave and I talked about this before that I can now meet people and know almost within a few moments if there's going to be somebody that I'm going to be able to be open with and feel like they're holding space for me and even hold space for them as well, or if it's someone that's just no offense to them but this is not somebody that I'm going to be able to be authentic with.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and that's a gift in and of itself. Yeah, yeah, and that that's a gift in and of itself, there's.
Speaker 3:Regardless of how difficult a time is or how hard a tragedy is, there's always a gift that comes out of it and that I think probably has been a gift for you. Has it served you? You know bereaved parents. I'm close with that. It's a perspective that we would happily give up to have our children back. Yeah, so, although it is something that I do value and appreciate, I would turn it away any second to go back to that ignorant bliss, so to speak. Yeah, and absolutely, you know, to talk about.
Speaker 3:What we talked about a little bit when we had that webinar was, although I do feel that it allows me to both connect with my clients and even with people that I'm technically adversarial with, but I feel like I can understand them better, hopefully in the best interest of my client, but also while still being able to maintain a little bit of the human element, even though these people are technically my adversary.
Speaker 3:It doesn't mean that we have to lose our humanity and we can continue to be respectful of each other. But being an empath in general can be overwhelming in that you just take on so many emotions and it can be quite exhausting, and one of the things that I raised is when the people that I'm meeting are people who have suffered these tragedies. It's sometimes just hard to have so much of that coming at you all the time when you're already dealing. I'll deal with grief every day of my life forever, depending on how you're feeling in the moment. It may be heavier or lighter at that exact time, but taking all that on in and of itself can be challenging when it's something you're facing every day.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and I think that's such an important point is that grief doesn't go away. It's not something that you go through the stages of grief and then it's boom and it's gone. That's just not how it works and I think it's really important to highlight that, that, yes, you will be in that space at some point during every day and, yes, sometimes it can be heavy and, yes, sometimes it can be light, and I really I have a lot of respect for you being able to step fully into that, because to me that's one of the greatest ways to cope is through acceptance and knowing. That's the journey, that's the path that you're on, and I think I'm a practicing shaman.
Speaker 2:Dave said the traveling shaman. I'm a practicing shaman, so I've been an empath my whole life and I didn't know what that meant for a long time, but once I understood it and then realized that's why I carry so much of other people's stuff, people that I'm trying to help or people that I meet and so I've learned how to hold those boundaries, those energetic boundaries, a little better. So talk a little bit about that and what has progressed for you on this journey of being an empath, being an attorney who's an empath? How have you learned to protect your own energy, protect your own peace?
Speaker 3:I think it's something that I really haven't gotten a great handle on yet.
Speaker 3:My daughter died in 2020. The world was still shut down in a pandemic, so I really didn't have to face it too much for a while, and we're just in 2024 now, so I would say it's still pretty early for me. I do find that when there's something that I've connected to a person, it's very distracting. It's hard to get back to work a little bit because I'm just thinking about this person and I'm feeling so much, and to put it down and do something a little bit more objective can be really challenging to me. But at the same time, sometimes that can be the way that you do find that piece is I need to get this done, there's a deadline and I don't have any other choice, so I need to throw myself into it and get away from that a little bit and do something. That's a little I don't want to say mindless, because it's hard work, but it's not so many feelings, it's more just black and white, and that can be a little bit of both a challenge and a help at the same time.
Speaker 2:But it's something that.
Speaker 3:I'm working on quite a bit.
Speaker 2:I have some ideas for you I do just off the top of my head. Learning perceptual states and how to go to different perceptual states when you're working with people, when you're in the company of an empath, that's something I can help you with. Learning how to clear your chakra system in your field on a regular basis will also be things that are helpful. And then learning about energetic cords and how we connect them with other people at times, and then how to cut them and clear them. Those are the three things that, off the top of my head, really come to me that could be helpful for you or anyone who's an empath and just beginning to understand. You're an empath and then how do you continue on? Because it is a gift. It is very helpful in so many levels, but at the same time, you have to be able to have a good, healthy boundary. So those are definitely things that that we can work on down the road dave, I'm sorry I stepped on you it's okay.
Speaker 1:No, you responded and I just have so many things that have been accumulating here, man, and one is just let this cup pass from my lips, kind of experience. All things considered, you'd like to turn the clock back and then, at the same time, are you really? We talked about what it's meant for you and just in the context, first of all, this podcast, because we just have, we just deal. All parents have challenges and we tend to deal with parents that have big challenges. So you think, how the hell am I going to get through this?
Speaker 1:And so, just being a model, who you are, going through something that is at orders of magnitude beyond what so many of us go through, just know and draw strength from, if it suits you, just your existence is just a gift, irrespective of what you give. Just know you're, just being who you are is just a beautiful gift, and I just want to express that. There's probably nothing you could say back to me. You don't have to say anything back to me, but I just want to express it in its own and I think we talked about this in the webinar that there's it's boundaries, and I think, when you, when I think we talked about this in the webinar, that there's it's boundaries, I think what you're talking about and you're setting energetic boundaries, in a way, with you for these people.
Speaker 1:and then there's also a way that we just said just trying to think there's no clever, there's no really clever way to say this is that you, from living a lifetime as an empathetic person and being knowledgeable of knowledge, and what that means is just there's a way that you can keep your heart open without keeping your energetic field open, and that's, I think we'll just leave. We'll just leave it at that, cause I want to go back to something and I want you to share your journey of what, from time having a healthy child to not having a child, what that's like. That's something that so few of us will ever know.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So first of all, my daughter's name was Carmela. If I hadn't said that, I always just want to say her name and hold space for her, even though she's not here. And she was wonderful and she was really remarkably smart. She was about two and a half years old when she started to have some really nonspecific symptoms of constipation and just general crankiness, which she was too so can't say that I thought too much of either of those things. But as we were trying to get to the bottom of the constipation was when we found that she had a tumor on her kidney. And when we found that and did some more testing, we determined that it was stage four and already had spread to her lungs, and it was. That was in February 7th of 2020. So the whole world shut down 30 days later and we were in the hospital for really about eight months. She died on October 29th of 2020. And that was, in and of itself, just.
Speaker 3:I don't even really know how I survived it. You just people are amazing sometimes Like you go into this mode where you just do what you have to do, Because when I look back on it, it's unbelievable to think about all that we went through at the hospital. There were times where the visitation policy was just one, one parent, and so it would be me or my husband and the other person would be home. I also had, when Carmel was diagnosed, a nine month old at home and I was exclusively breastfeeding. So I had to deal with all of that and then, with the world shut down, I was working at home because I still needed to keep working, because you still need money, and so managing all of that was really crazy. And when she died, it's just.
Speaker 3:There's so many things that you grieve. You grieve, obviously, the loss of your child, but you grieve the loss of yourself and you grieve the loss of your future and my son's future and my husband's future and our future together. You know, we always plan on having a third child and really we've decided that's not something we're going to do at this point in light of everything that has happened. And so I've decided that's not something we're going to do at this point in light of everything that has happened. And so I grieve the loss of that baby that I wanted to have but never did, and there's just so many aspects to it that are coming at you so quickly that you don't think about. There's no way to prepare yourself for that. Even though my daughter had stage four cancer and it was one of the rarest pediatric cancers that exist and I knew that it was a possibility that we would lose her I still there's just no way to be ready for that to actually happen.
Speaker 3:How do you wake up the next day and just go from waking up and making two kids breakfast to just one is? It'll knock you totally out. And some of the things that I thought I would be struggling with Christmas or birthdays those are hard, but sometimes the worst ones are you're just in the grocery store and you see your favorite croutons that you liked as a snack is what's going to set you back to the early stages of grief because you're not ready for it. And some of these other things that you can prepare yourself for and think about and get ready for can sometimes be a little bit easily not easily, but more easily managed than that shocking moment that just hits you from left field like a gut punch. But one of the things to go back to something Angie was saying that I learned is sometimes, when you're on your way to the bottom, you just have to let yourself get there before you can come back up, and I think that one of the things that I've learned is continuing to pretend it's not there.
Speaker 3:Just pushing through it can sometimes just magnify the situation and totally exhaust all of your mental and physical resources is to ignore it, and sometimes the better thing is to say I know that I'm headed down to a dark place and I'm just going to go there and I'm just going to let myself be there as long as I need to be, and then I'll be able to climb back up To say that you're living in the darkness. There's many times that I really am, and the people that I most appreciate are the ones that can climb down there with me and just say I'm just going to hang out with you here until you're ready to go, and not try to make it better, Because those are the people that you can't be authentic with. Is someone that's like you have another child, or you have so much life ahead of you, or there's so much to be thankful for? Of course there is, but it doesn't change anything about my loss.
Speaker 1:It doesn't change anything about my loss, yeah.
Speaker 3:So those types of platitudes can be really tough and I'm sure I said some of those things when I was on the other side of it, but now I think, oh my gosh, how that was so insensitive.
Speaker 2:So that's a very long end. No, I think that you said a lot of really important things there, and I want to highlight that. The last thing that you said because it is tough and the people who are saying, who are giving you the platitudes, it's coming from a lovely place. It's coming from a place of wanting to make you feel better, like you said, and so I think that's an understandable thing. But I think it's really important to hear what you're saying, and that is that sometimes you're going to be in that deep dark hole and you have to be able to just be there and for someone to be able to go there with you and just hold space for you until you're ready to climb back out of it, because you will. Obviously, you've developed incredible resilience I can't even imagine, but you have, I can see that and so I think it's important for our listeners to hear is because it's tough anytime that you have somebody who passes away.
Speaker 2:How do you, what do you say? I always struggle with that myself. What do I say? When I have a friend who loses a parent, or I've had friends who've lost children how do you, what do you say? In that moment?
Speaker 2:It is really hard and I don't think there's a. I don't think there's a right thing to say. I just don't think there's a right thing to say. I just don't think there is. I just think that you're right being present and holding space is the only thing that you can do, and for some people, that can mean saying a prayer. That holding space just really means not trying to make it better, not trying to change a situation, but truly just allowing the situation to be what it is and sending love to the person who's struggling. That's really what holding space is. We've used that term a couple of times just to highlight that for everybody. So I just really appreciate that honesty and that authenticity and the vulnerability in what you just said. We just have to give people the time and the space to go into that dark hole. We have to give people the time and the space to go into that dark hole and for me, I think about what's going to be helpful for people, for other families who are listening to your incredible story, and everything you're saying is just really helpful and I appreciate it.
Speaker 2:I would ask, with your profession that's a demanding job that you have, and just everything you just talked about having a son at home that you're breastfeeding and the pandemic and everything you talked about it. Yeah, you look back and how did you do that? That's where the human spirit comes in and we're able to do those kinds of things. But for somebody who's maybe in this situation and really struggling with their profession, with being able to maintain their job, which we all need to, do you have any advice for them? How was your legal firm like, your partners and all of that? How did they support you? What was helpful, what was not helpful, and did you advocate for what you needed in that situation?
Speaker 3:Yeah, first of all, my partners, my colleagues were unbelievable. They were absolutely wonderful. They never batted an eye at anything that I needed. I took four months off after Carmela passed away and there was never any question about it, and we hold a charity golf tournament in her memory now, and not just my partners, but everybody in the legal community is in attendance, or a sponsor or a donor, so I am very fortunate in that regard. I know there's many people that do not have that same level of support, and they were just a safety net for me, so I couldn't ever thank them enough for how supportive they were, which, again, we're talking oxymorons, right?
Speaker 3:Lawyers aren't like that, but they are. They were. I have nothing. I couldn't possibly say enough things good things about that. In terms of struggling for me, I found when I came back to work it was hard to stay focused, but to some extent it was helpful to me to just simply force myself, as so many people have to do the job, that I needed and I found a little bit of an escape there, because you never aren't thinking about it. Karmala is on my mind all of the time, but maybe it's 10 out of 10 on your mind versus other things, or three out of 10.
Speaker 3:And when you're doing something that is so mentally taxing as practicing law can be no-transcript, that it wasn't necessarily great long-term, but at the moment it helped me, and finding a work-life balance is something I think everybody is always dealing with anyway.
Speaker 1:It's an ongoing thing that everybody faces, probably for their whole life, yeah, and there's something you said I want to go into because it's a really important distinction, Because the question I was going to ask is where the hell did you find the strength? And the question is you don't know where you find the strength right, and most of us, when we see, when, when we have some, there's a friend which mystic said god does not tax us more than our ability to endure. But you get something you think is going to be unendurable. You think what am I going to do about it? And it's not keeping us from going down into the depths. That's not where the strength comes from. I think there's a certain strength in trusting that you can do that. It's in your ability to be able to then come back. And the strength that you found are you, does it seem familiar to you? Is it a surprise? Is it something like you always knew you had? And now it's like meeting another friend again.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's funny, it's like the question about you. Both said that we were empaths our whole life and I said I felt like I just became one and was I always, maybe, but just didn't really know or didn't appreciate it, I don't know. And same question for the strength. I think I've always been a mentally tough person. Was I always drawing on that when I was in that moment? I think so, but I also think some to some extent. We learn as we go and I have learned so much.
Speaker 3:One of the things I neglected to say before was the idea of being able to feel two completely different emotions. I didn't know that was something anyone could do. How can you feel the worst in your life and also feel grateful? My daughter had just passed and I couldn't have felt any worse. It was horrible and you think about all these very dark things, but then, at the same time, I was unbelievably grateful for all the amazing things that people did.
Speaker 3:And we talk about how you lose faith in humanity. I gained faith in humanity when I went through that experience. I was like, oh my gosh, people are amazing. Where did this come from? I didn't know people could be so wonderful. So how can you feel those two things at the same time, and when I felt it like that, I was like I don't understand this, and now that's just regular. We're going to have a holiday this weekend and I'm going to feel excited and happy to share that with my son and my family, and I'm also going to feel terrible that my daughter's not there. And that sounds like how, but that's how I live now. So being able to just accept that's the way it is something that I definitely never had in me before, but I did now. So being open to just learning, I think, is important.
Speaker 1:And I think that-.
Speaker 2:Do you?
Speaker 1:remember the word Sorry, go ahead, word, sorry, go ahead. The word that we shared, that you said, nailed it on both of those at the same time. It's not a quiz.
Speaker 3:I didn't you I lost you for a minute there what was the question?
Speaker 1:yeah, the word that we shared, that I shared with you, and my father said that we that captured it so beautifully of anguishment yes, yes and. Angie and I had interviewed Erin and she used the word brutal.
Speaker 2:I like that too. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I was just that's what I was going to say that holding joy and sorrow at the same time is such a gift, and it's to be able to do that and to not feel there's so many things that can happen when you hold the gratitude, the joy, and then you can feel guilty, and or holding the sorrow and then you feel guilty for not holding the other, and I think it's really beautiful that you have. However, it's happened, whether you're consciously aware of it or not, but you are holding joy and sorrow at the same time, and that's a really beautiful thing, and I think it's also a wonderful example for your son. What is your son's name?
Speaker 3:His name is Enzo.
Speaker 2:Enzo, so Carmela, which is a beautiful name, and Enzo so I think it's because we know that losing a sibling it doesn't matter how old that's a trauma that you experience as a human, and so that's going to be something that he's always going to live with, right, but you holding joy and sorrow at the same time and, I would imagine, being incredibly open about it within your family unit, that's such an, that's such a great example for him and, energetically, it's such a healing space for him, a healing container.
Speaker 2:So I just really want to give you praise and kudos for allowing yourself to do that, even if you don't understand it, and I think that's part of being the empath, and I think, yes, you probably have been an empath your entire life and you've probably always held joy and sorrow, and this experience really highlighted it.
Speaker 2:It's like it fine-tuned it in your awareness that you were able to come and be in those spaces at the same time, and that's really important. I think a lot of people get stuck in one side or the other when there's a tragedy, and then what's really happening is they're compartmentalizing, they're not allowing themselves to actually go through all the emotions, and that's so important for you to continue to be healthy, to continue to be successful, to continue to be a beautiful mother and wife and friend and all of the things that you are in your life. So I'm so happy to hear you say that and I hope that other people can be inspired by that. My question for you is I would like you to talk a little bit about your faith, because I feel like this is not something that you could surrender to without having some faith.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I was raised Catholic. I went to Catholic school for my entire primary and secondary education and I never was really super involved in the church as an adult, but I always did believe in it. It was something there and when Carmela was diagnosed I did fall to that and when she died it really crushed that for me. To be quite honest, I did everything that I was ever told to do and I begged to save her and those prayers were not answered. And how have a lot of friends who have also lost their faith through this experience, and I have many other friends who it's strengthened because they say I have to believe that my child, who's lost, is with a higher power and that I'm going to see them again.
Speaker 3:And I think for me I don't. I'm still working that out on what faith really is and that's a lifetime journey. But what I do believe in now that I didn't appreciate before is I believe in energy and, like I started with, I can feel that almost right away, like even just right now, I feel very relaxed and comfortable with both of you. You have wonderful energies. We're not even in the same room and I can feel that. And where does energy go? Carmela had an energy and her energy went somewhere, and someday my energy will go there too, and whether it's just in nature or in heaven or whatever you imagine that might be, it looks different for everyone. I don't think we just disappear. So I believe in that and wherever she is, I'll be there with her someday, even if it's that's just nowhere at all. And that does give me some comfort. But I'd be lying if I didn't hope that someday I will see her in a more 3d sense, so to speak.
Speaker 1:It's so beautiful. I know I, Angie it's not often Angie and I are both in awe at the same time, but I think one of the beautiful things is awe at the same time. And I think one of the beautiful things is and your answer was perfect, I was holding my breath because I just thought you're freed from the ideas. You're free to find what's true and what isn't true from what you believe. You don't have to take the whole package anymore, right? You're free to find what was valid in terms of the faith. That's sacred, that's your connection, because that's who you were as a kid. At the same time, it's just evolved into something else and just to be a model to the freedom to then find faith based on experience, because that's when it really has hold. And so you're free to just know what you know and not feel I'm going to go to hell because I'm not going.
Speaker 1:I'm not saying communion every Sunday and that's just so liberating and it's obviously it's just serving you so well, because no one can look at you and say you're not a woman of faith.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I guess I don't know, believe in something, and you know to me whatever there. I don't know if there's a God or if we're all just connected in some other way or whatever, but if there is one one, I have to assume that this being would understand that I am angry with it for what happened. I say that I'm mad and people are like they should be mad at god. I'm like, why if? He's great he is, then he should get it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, now that that is brutal, that is brutal I just want to reach out the screen right now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's beautiful Because, yes, it's so real, because there's so many questions, and I've always walked the journey of religion and spirituality and so grew up believing that they were the same thing and now in my life, know that they are not the same thing and knowing that what I experienced in my own faith and me having faith in a higher power doesn't have to have a name. So there's a lot, I have a lot of that same same journey for me, but knowing that the universe has my back and that every journey is perfect, no matter how hard that is to accept, to me that's a comfort and you'll find the words for your faith, whatever that's going to be. But, yes, that was an absolute, brutal way to talk about it because, yes, you're angry, absolutely you're angry. There's all of that grief, that loss and why's, all the why's, and it would be inauthentic to say anything different than that. So, yes, that was a brutal answer. Thank you for sharing all of that.
Speaker 1:I just gotta thing, which is that, whatever the divine is, I can't imagine that he she it. Whatever doesn't want us to be ourselves doesn't want that yeah and so to sit there, swallow that down and say, oh no, you're a loving god. I know this is for the best and I'm so grateful that you took my daughter. When you just hands around, it's her neck me. That's just absolutely sacred to have the freedom to be yourself and your full humanity.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I agree.
Speaker 3:Humans are imperfect I certainly am and religion was really created by humans. When people did that in their separate boxes, whatever it is. They took the best of them and some of the worst of them and they made mistakes and people can believe whatever they want.
Speaker 2:I think things look a lot different for a lot of different people.
Speaker 3:And no, I try to tell myself, some of the things that I was taught are really taught by people, so it doesn't have to be accepted or not, and you can take what you want from some of it and other things not. But at the end of the day, my religion taught me to try and be a good person and be forgiving, and I try to take that, because there's, of course, we could have a whole week of what's good and bad about the Catholic church, but that's not what this is about. The good things that I learned was to just forgive people and try to be good to others and try to be generous, and those are the things that are really good about what I learned that I take with me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and those are all the golden rule. Whatever, wherever those ideas come from, ideals come from, and it is important to live like that. That keeps our frequency very high when we're in a place of forgiveness and joy, and it keeps our frequency high. Treat others the way you want to be treated and give out is what you bring back into you energetically. But at whatever frequency we're vibrating, then that is the frequency that we're going to attract in. So that's one of the things that I see that's not beautiful. This is beautiful, just beautiful about you is that you do vibrate at a high frequency and so you are attracting those same frequencies back into your life.
Speaker 2:Low frequencies are shame and guilt and grief and sadness, and everybody goes there at some point. Everybody does. But being able that's one of the benefits of being able to hold the joy and the sorrow at the same time is being able to keep your frequency high. Some of the other things I was talking about keeping your field clear and those sorts of things that also helps to keep your frequency high Connection to nature, doing things to take care of yourself and as long as you keep that frequency high, then regardless of what language you put on it. Then you are able to relax into having that faith in the universe and trusting that the universe has your back.
Speaker 2:Even in the hard times, even when you're angry at the unknown, for very good reasons, you can still keep that frequency high, which you're definitely doing. That's easy to see, so I think that's a great example for other parents. Regardless of what the challenge is, this has definitely been an exceptional challenge for a parent, and so it's just incredible to see you be in the space that you're in for sure. The question that I have for you you talked about a charity golf tournament that you hold. Can you talk a little bit about what you're raising funds for and is there a way for our listeners to contribute, because we could certainly put the information in our show notes and help you in that regard.
Speaker 3:Oh sure, yeah. So I mentioned earlier that one of the things that was very important to me was attending a retreat for bereaved parents about six months after Carmela passed, and that charity is called the Punt Pediatric Cancer Collaborative. It's a local charity in Buffalo and so our golf tournament benefits that charity is called the Punt Pediatric Cancer Collaborative, a local charity in Buffalo, and so our golf tournament benefits that charity. And that charity's mission is essentially to fill the gaps for families with pediatric cancer. So they'll pay a mortgage when one parent is out to take kids to their treatments or they'll sponsor Christmas presents for the kids and they have a pretty good relationship with the Buffalo Bills, which is the NFL professional football team here. They'll arrange to have kids go to a football game. A lot of them are compromised. They can't be around 50,000 people. They'll get them there safely. They will buy a bike for someone or pay for photos for family. That's not sure they're gonna have that chance to have a family photograph in the future.
Speaker 3:But what is most important to me and my family was their bereavement program, which a lot of these charities focus on kids and treatment. But once you've lost your child you're a little bit alone and the people that you've connected with. You're at the hospital three days a week. You're living there for a month. You connect with the nurses and the doctors and they become somewhat of a support system and then you lose all of that and you're by yourself and that charity doesn't leave you alone. They come back and say come, we'll help you and we'll walk with you still. So that's really important. That's how I met some of these people that really are able to sit with me in the darkness, these other bereaved parents, and I see new people coming in all the time having those struggles, and I'm just so grateful that this charity is there. It's a sold space for them. So our tournament benefits that charity. It's a recognized 501c3. And all the funds go directly to them. We don't get any money at all. Come to us, it just goes right to pun.
Speaker 2:That's what an incredible organization. So I'm sure that we'll have some listeners who would like to. So we will get that information, put it in the show notes. We'll get the link to the website and all of that a way to donate in Carmela's name.
Speaker 3:That's very nice of you. To go back to something Dave said earlier about the challenges of parenting, I think about my daughter being gone and I still parent her in some way, that energy that you would use to raise a child we do the charity golf tournament or try to help other parents or recognize her life in other ways, talking about her or whatever it may be and it looks a lot different. I think about it that way. This energy that I have would be so intently focused on her if she was here and now. It's channeled in a different direction, but it's still parenting to some extent, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2:It does. I never thought about it like that, but it absolutely makes sense because that energy has to go somewhere, it doesn't just stop. And so a really interesting perspective, because I can see a parent being in a situation where there's or anyone who's lost a family member being in a situation where the energy that went into that relationship goes no place, and how unhealthy that would be. But to channel it into something that's helping other people and also keeping her memory alive. To me that's just a, that's a beautiful way for you to just redirect that energy. I think that's a really important concept. I hadn't thought of that. How about you, dave?
Speaker 3:I think that's why so many people who have suffered a loss often do things like do a golf tournament or start a charity, because you have so much love and energy to give and it has to go somewhere and so you can connect it to other people. And I think that's I see that in a lot of bereaved parents especially but it's not just parents, it's, it's many bereaved that they just have this love to give and it has to go somewhere.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I saw a quote one time and I'm sure I won't get it right, but it made so much sense to me it was grief was the absence of something, someone to accept the love that you have to give.
Speaker 1:And that is yeah, so yeah I think you're right about that that you have to give.
Speaker 1:And that just yeah, so yeah, I think you're right about that. That's what I feel. It's the love you think you're never going to love again when you hurt that much. And you realize the love. First of all, in a way, you love more and then the love just goes somewhere else and I have something that's been cooking. First of all, I just feel like overwhelmed by this whole thing. It's not often I'm speechless, but I find myself I'm gloving, just so in awe of the whole view and this configuration right now. So grade me on the curve here.
Speaker 1:But the in the work that I do with lawyers or whatever it's so much of it, is what control, or you can control, the better lawyer you are.
Speaker 1:You put it attracts control freaks, create control, fre, rewards, control fix. And then you're in a situation where you had none, and I think so much of this is your ability to just live in the unknown, which you're still doing, because you don't know what you're going to wake up to. You don't know if you're going to wake up to a tent. You don't know if you're going to go into court and just be the hardest ass in the world or whether you're going to feel like you're just a puddle, just I don't know what if there's a question here but just reflect upon what it's like living in this, just living in the unknown, versus the rigidity and the certainty of the control that is most people's lives, and especially lawyers lives yeah, I think maybe the question in all of that is do you feel like you have to put on your attorney armor when you go to court so that you can step into that role being mom, step out of the role, step into the role of grieving mom and out of?
Speaker 2:is that one of the ways that helps you to cope with all of this, or is it more smooth than that?
Speaker 3:I think a little bit. Yeah, you take on certain personas and different facets of your life. For sure, even without what I've been through, I think people wear different hats and in different circumstances. In general, so yeah to some extent, I do step into those shoes and back out again and depending on what the circumstances call for.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I guess I put a question to my whatever that was it's what's it like living in the freedom of the? I know there's a scariness of the unknown, but there's a freedom to that as well.
Speaker 3:That I think you experience and that you manifest not having to know what's going to happen yeah, it can be a little bit freeing to some of these things that you used to worry about. You just really don't anymore and, in knowing that you've survived the worst, there's nothing. Nothing that really scares me right? What's going to happen?
Speaker 1:I already went through it.
Speaker 3:I don't know that everybody feels like that. I talked to some people. It's a heightened level of anxiety. I didn't think anything like this could happen to me and I told myself that when I was anxious, and then it did so. Now I can't ever believe that it's not going to happen. I always believe it's going to happen because that's what happened. But for me it is a little bit more. Just, we're here and there's only so much we can control and we just take it as it comes and try to handle it as we handle it when it arrives.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. That's truly living in the moment, which I think we all strive to do to some degree. But when something like this happens, like we're really not given a choice, we really have to be living in the moment because you can't go back, you can't go forward and you don't know and I think that's more the unknown that Dave's kind of referring to is that it is there is a freedom of truly living in the moment, has very scheduled, planned, you have deadlines, you have things that are going to keep your schedule moving in a forward way, but yet you're still very much in your present life, in the present moment. I think that's I think it's a beautiful thing. We're coming up to the end of the hour and I just a couple of things I want to highlight, and then I just want to give you an opportunity to talk to parents, anything that you think that you want to share with them, but a couple of things that you said that I think are very important Finding a group, finding the bereavement group, was incredibly important to your healing journey, which is ongoing.
Speaker 2:Doing the retreat again, I think that was an important, very important aspect of this journey that you've talked about having the support around you and looking for the people who can truly be supportive in your vulnerability. I think that is another point that's worthy of highlighting, and being kind to yourself. You talked about taking the time off from work, being kind to yourself and allowing yourself to be in that space, whatever it is, whether it's a three or a five that day, whether it's a dark hole, or you can focus on work that day and being present with it wherever you are on that path. I think those are really important points for any parent who may be going through the same experience. And then what would you say? What more would you say to parents at this point?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think the kindness to yourself is the biggest one, the biggest struggle. It's easy to feel guilty and like you did something wrong and looking back and why did I do this and why didn't I do that? And that really can that guilt really eat away at you. Trying to give yourself grace is something hard, but it's really important because you got to let yourself off the hook about these things and not try to live there. And it's hard and I've struggled with that many times, but that, I think, is the toughest thing and also the most important thing. And finding your people, I think, is the way thing and also the most important thing. And finding your people, I think, is the way that you can hopefully get through that. And in my experience, your people aren't always the ones that you thought when before you went into this that there's people, maybe, that you haven't even met yet.
Speaker 2:Great point. That's a great point. I'm very honored to meet you. I'm very honored that you shared your story on our podcast. Really appreciate the vulnerability and the honesty that you shared. Thank you, thank you for having me on.
Speaker 3:I appreciate it.
Speaker 2:I'm giving you the last word, Dave.
Speaker 1:I don't have it, I just feel. So I'm just grateful to be alive and I'm grateful to be able to share the planet with you.
Speaker 3:Thank you, both of you as well.
Speaker 2:And we will get the information for the golf tournament and the charity and put it in our show notes for anyone who would like to contribute. In the memory of Carmela, thank you.
