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Improving Sales Performance
Why Are Media Sales Managers Lacking Superstars? with Beth Sunshine
In this episode, we’re once again consulting the latest Media Sales Report by The Center for Sales Strategy.
Today, we’re asking the question, “why are so many media sales managers lacking superstar talent?"
Joining Matt to answer that question and more, is the amazing Beth Sunshine, SVP/Talent Services here at CSS and the head of Up Your Culture a division of CSS focusing on company culture and employee engagement.
Of course, Beth provides such valuable insights, like:
- How, contrary to popular belief, it’s not poor performers but average performers that weigh an organization down.
- Why managers can’t nurture their superstar talents by “coaching from the locker room”
- And, finally, how if a seller has unrealized talent, the right mix of training and feedback can help transform them into a genuine superstar
Links:
The 5th Annual Media Sales Report
Beth Sunshine
Matt Sunshine
Up Your Culture
The Center for Sales Strategy
Welcome to Improving Sales Performance, a podcast highlighting tips and insights aimed at helping sales organizations realize, and maybe even exceed, their goals. Here we chat with thought leaders, experts and gurus who have years of sales experience from a wide range of industries. I'm your host, matt Sunshine, ceo at the Center for Sales Strategy, a sales performance consulting company. In this episode, we're once again consulting the latest media sales report by the Center for Sales Strategy.
Matt Sunshine:Today we're asking the question why are so many media sales managers lacking superstar talent? Joining me to answer that question and more, is the amazing Beth Sunshine, svp talent services here at CSS and the head of Up your Culture division of CSS that focuses on company culture and employee engagement. Of course, beth provides such valuable insights like how, contrary to popular belief, it's not poor performers but average performers that weigh an organization down, why managers can't nurture their superstar talent by coaching from the locker room. And, finally, how, if a seller has unrealized talent, the right mixture of training and feedback can help transform them into a genuine superstar. With that, let's get the conversation started, all right. So in the just published media sales report and it is the fifth annual media sales report isn't that pretty cool?
Beth Sunshine:Yeah, congratulations.
Matt Sunshine:Yeah, in the fifth annual media sales report, 75% of sales managers don't consider the majority of their teams to be superstars. Let that sink in just for a second 75% of sales managers do not consider that the majority of their salespeople are superstars. So two-part question one is what do you make of that? And two, if you were leading a team or what advice would you give to someone leading a team that was seriously lacking in superstar talent? What would you do? What should they do? What would they start?
Beth Sunshine:Yeah, this is a great question. First of all, superstars sales superstars they're not easy to find. I mean, the average person is just not born and built for sales. So when you study those who are great at it, those who excel the best of the best, you find that they have a handful of behaviors that they have a ton of intensity in and most people just don't have those. So even in the best of times, finding a seller who can be a sales superstar is like finding a needle in a haystack. So I do have to just say it's not easy.
Beth Sunshine:But, with that said, this is a tough job market right now. Recruitment is hard. I'm hearing daily by our clients how difficult. It is harder than usual and to achieve sales excellence you have to start with someone who has the potential for excellence. You get out of it what you put into it. You're only going to have excellent outcomes if you hire people with the potential for excellence, so that the best hiring managers follow a highly structured process. They use a validated town assessment built specifically for sales, so that they do have the advantage they need to spot superstar potential. I don't think managers are trying not to hire people who can be superstars, I just think there are a lot more misses than there are hits. So the second part of your question was what advice do I have? And is the advice if they have a team already who is lacking in this superstar talent?
Beth Sunshine:So, however you want to take it, yeah, I'd say, if one of your listeners is looking around at their team and they're thinking I don't have the star talent that I need on this team, I would start by making sure that it's really talent that they're lacking and not skills, because there's a really big difference between talent and skills and I think a lot of people confuse them. It's easy to do so. The first thing I would do is just spend time with their talent assessments. I'd make sure I'm crystal clear on their strengths and their weaknesses so you know what you're actually dealing with. Then I'd make sure I'm putting them, putting my people, in the position to maximize their strengths and that I have work rounds in place to minimize their weaknesses. If a seller ended up on my team who just didn't have the innate talent they need to achieve success, then we have a problem. I mean, at that point in time, I'd probably help them find another path, because I feel strongly that it is wrong to try to jam a square peg into a round hole and have expectations that they're gonna change, that they're gonna become a round peg. So that's where I'd start. I'd make sure I know my people, I'd make sure I know how they're wired and then I'd make sure that they have the training and the ongoing coaching that they need to achieve their very best performance.
Beth Sunshine:Just because someone has the raw potential that's what talent is Superstar. Talent is just raw potential. Just because someone has that, it doesn't mean that they've been trained or coached to use it most effectively. So I'd make sure everyone on my team knows what's expected of them, what success looks like, and then I'd commit to giving them great coaching, regular feedback and finally, and probably most importantly, going back to where I started with. Recruitment is so hard. I commit to building a stellar talent bank, so I'm never, ever, ever in that position again. I would set aside time every week for a certain period of time to connect with top talent. I build relationships even when I'm not hiring, so that I have superstars sitting on the bench just waiting to get into the game. I find that that raises the bar for the current team of sadly not superstars potentially, and it also gives me, as their coach, a sense of freedom that I can always send people out.
Matt Sunshine:All right, so thanks. So let me dig a little deeper into this, because there's something here and I'm gonna throw out a term that you I know you've heard me say at talent focus management workshops over the years. But so we have this thing going on Managers feel as though they're lacking superstar talent At least they're saying that in the media sales report.
Matt Sunshine:However, if you dig a little deeper, nearly half the managers so 46%, so just under half say that less than 20% of their sales teams is underperforming. Managers are finding themselves in a situation where they don't have superstars, but they don't have that many underperforming. And so what can a manager start doing to help those adequate or average performing salespeople evolve into superstars? And what you've heard me say over the years is I sometimes feel like sales departments are handcuffed to mediocracy. They don't have the top, but they're not. They're good. Yeah, it's a lot easier to go from bad to great than from good to great.
Beth Sunshine:Yeah, yeah, it's a great way to say it. I mean, you said the word average, which just sort of gives me cringey feelings, because the average performer is the one that can bring down an organization. You've probably heard this term before, I'm sure you have. Good is the enemy of great, and it's true, it's really easy to spot a poor performer. We're all pretty good, no matter what position we're hiring for, we're pretty good at spotting a poor performer, and that allows us to either not hire them or, if we spot that too late, at least not keep them for long. It's the average performers, it's those who fly under the radar, that really hurt the organization.
Beth Sunshine:Sometimes, during leadership development sessions, I'll ask managers in the room to grade their sellers and to tell me how many A players, b players, c players and so on that they have on their teams. And I find it really fascinating, because the same thing happens really everywhere. They typically and I'm curious if you've had the same experience they typically have some of each with the fewest numbers considered A players, not a ton of those, and probably the most of them B or C players, and when I ask them why, it leads to a great discussion. So that's really the conversation opener for me, but my question to them after we discuss it is why can't they all be A players? Why can't you do the due diligence necessary to hire people with the raw potential for excellence and then train and coach them to achieve top level talent? And you and I know I think you would agree the answer is you can. You can do that. It's just a full time job. It's a full time job. So the answer your question about what managers can do to help those average performers evolve into superstars I'd say, first and foremost, they have to make sure that they have the potential to be superstars in the first place. If they do have that potential for excellence, they should invest in them. I mean that investment is everything.
Beth Sunshine:From the very beginning, though, they need to spend time making sure that that person's clear on what their strengths are. Make sure that they know how to use their strengths. We give our clients a tool called the top talent report. It's a great conversation starter If you give your new employee this top talent report, or even an existing employee this top talent report. Have them read through their strengths and all of the recommended strategies they can use to maximize their strengths. Have a conversation about that. Provide them with strategies like really dig into those talents that would be number one and then Provide top-notch training. Obviously they they need to have the knowledge and the skills necessary for success.
Beth Sunshine:Sales is hard it's so hard to be a great salesperson so you need to, as a manager, make it your full-time job to Arm them, support them, give them clear expectations so that they know what they're shooting for, recognize their good work often.
Beth Sunshine:Also, I could preach about this all day, but you want to spend time in the field so you can be their eyes and ears and, just like a football coach got football in the brain now for obvious reasons, just like a football coach can't coach from the locker room, sales manager has to see their players in action. They have to see their sellers on the field to be able to point out what they're doing Right, to be able to help them do it better and better and better every time. So I would recommend that, and you know. Another thing managers can do is schedule regular One-on-one meetings to discuss the sellers, target accounts, next steps and obstacles. All of that, to me, equals investment. So you have to make sure you have the right talents and then, if you do, it's all in your investment to bring them to that level of top performer.
Matt Sunshine:Yeah, so I want to go. I want to go a little deeper in some things that you were saying. You know, a component of this lack of superstars Could be Regular feedback, or or not. That's kind of what you were touching on a little bit. So here's some data 55% Managers feel as though they don't spend enough time each week coaching members of their sales team. 44% of sales people say they don't receive feedback on their talents and on a regular basis. So how can? Oh, and you brought up, so I'll come back to. I'll come to the question in a second. I want to divert for a second. You brought up football.
Beth Sunshine:I'll go a little deeper on football.
Matt Sunshine:What's ordered?
Matt Sunshine:I open now this will exchange, you and I were having you me, and some other people were having earlier today on the impact of coaching, that the investment. Yeah. So Nick Saban just retired whether you're a fan of Alabama or not doesn't matter Greatest greatest college coach ever, or if you don't believe that he's certainly in the top two or three yeah, of all time for sure. But is it just Alabama? So I did some research and Before he got his first coaching gig I think was Toledo.
Matt Sunshine:Before he got to Toledo, they were 26 and 28. In the five years before he got there they were average 26 and 28. He got there, they went nine and two. I Then he went to Michigan State. In the five years before he got to Michigan State, they were 27 and 29. They lost more than they won. After he went there he was there they were 34 and 24. So then he goes to LSU. Before he got there they were 30 and 23. 30 wins, 23 losses. After he goes there they go 48 and 16. Yeah, then he goes to Alabama. They were 36 and 27,. Just slightly better than 500. The five years before he got there and obviously he went on. He went 206 and 29 over his tenure there. So coaching does make a difference. I mean, all those schools had some variation of talented athletes on their team and certainly the teams with the most talent are gonna win out over the team. But it needs coaching, it needs investment.
Beth Sunshine:Absolutely right. I love the way you think about that. And, looking at a team like Alabama Nick Saban, the magic is sort of cyclical. It starts well I don't know, it's a chicken or a egg kind of thing but it starts by building a great program. When you have a great program, you attract great talent, so recruiting becomes easier and easier. So he created something that he's attracting five-star athletes to and they're performing at a higher level. It's exactly the way business can work.
Matt Sunshine:All right. So now back to that question of. Managers feel as though they don't spend enough time in the field, and sales people don't feel as though they get regular feedback. What can a manager do to improve this? What are some actionable things that they can do to ensure that feedback happens on a regular basis? What do you recommend?
Beth Sunshine:Well, first I'd say that you have to make this a priority, and I mean that sounds like such a no-brainer, but it's true. As a manager, you're rarely gonna find yourself with nothing to do and just happen to discover that it's a great time to coach your seller that those moments rarely happen organically. It's something that typically has to be planned, it has to be on your calendar for it to regularly happen. So I would start by putting those things on your calendar and then also, just to kind of recap what I said a moment ago, for coaching and feedback to work, the seller has to have really clear expectations. You need they need to know from you what success looks like, what you're looking for exactly, so they can target that. And then they need to understand, too, how they're wired. So their strengths are different than those of their manager, they're different than those of their coworkers, so it's really important for any individual contributor to know what their strengths are and have them top of mind so that they're able to maximize their strengths. So you asked about feedback. You have to have all that in place first, and then, once you have those things in place, you're primed to give feedback.
Beth Sunshine:You asked for some tips. A few of my favorite tips. Number one don't wait for a specific outcome to happen before you give feedback. I often think about because you and I, we know we have babies around us. Quite often these days, you don't wait for a baby to successfully walk across the floor to tell them that they did a good job or to tell them what you liked that they did. Instead, you notice every little action that leads to them walking across the floor. You notice the first time they get up on their knees, the first time they crawl, and that feedback some recognition, but also just the feedback, the caring, play such a huge role. That extends to sales management. If you just wait until they make the sale, you've missed the opportunity. Giving feedback on daily activity along the way allows them to make adjustments and improve their performance. That's key Also.
Beth Sunshine:I'll give you three tips. The second tip is be as specific as possible. Great presentation or great job, great proposal those things are never going to grow anyone. They're never going to leave them feeling like purposeful. Instead, you want to tell them what you liked. What about? Their presentation was so strong? What about that proposal? Should they replicate again? When you tell someone what they're doing right, they're able to repeat those positive behaviors and get better and better and better. Then third one I'll give you. Just remember that feedback is best when, over time, it's given at a pretty high ratio. We say five to one, positive to negative, constructive criticism or any feedback that doesn't feel great. That has to happen. That's necessary for growth, but it lands much better and it leads to bigger improvements. If you're really heavy-handed with the positive feedback, if at a five to one ratio, just over time, you're noticing what they're doing right, you're going to have a bigger effect when you need to point to what they need to do differently next time.
Matt Sunshine:Yeah, I would definitely say that many believe that feedback equals tell them what they did wrong.
Beth Sunshine:Yes, almost always. That's right. It's almost the opposite.
Matt Sunshine:We need to tell them what they're doing right.
Beth Sunshine:We need to do that again and do it more Next time you do it. You could even do this with it. That's it.
Matt Sunshine:Speaking of football, there's a great article in H and Harvard Business Review from a few years ago talked about Tom Landry a.
Matt Sunshine:Cowboys coach that would show the video, would show the film of the players doing it right and on occasion doing it wrong, but for the most part only doing it right. When asked about that, he said there are lots of ways to do it wrong. Why would I show video on that? There's only one way to do it right. I just want them to focus on that. I thought that's so great because it's so true.
Beth Sunshine:It was so cool and it was so different. That was such a different mindset, just a different paradigm and an effective one Last set of questions.
Matt Sunshine:Let me tee it up and then we'll walk through some of my questions on this. 92 percent of salespeople Nearly all of them, 92 percent believe it is important or very important that they are learning and developing in their roles. However, only 48 percent report that they participate in sales training on a weekly basis. All of them are saying, nearly all of them are saying, hey, I need to learn and develop if I'm going to be successful in my role. Little less than half we'll call it half are saying they have weekly sales trainings. So one how can a manager make sure they are providing this learning and development that salespeople want?
Beth Sunshine:Well, I guess, since we're talking about what they want, I'd start by making sure that you understand exactly what it is that they're craving. Learning and development is going to look very different from one person to another, so being as individualized as possible, I would say, is job number one. Also, you want to identify the gaps so you can fill them. So learning and development, are we talking about just taking them to the next level, or is there something that they're missing? Is there something that if they improved that thing, they could be so much better? I'd have that conversation. I would have them be a part of thinking about what could grow them. Also, everyone learns really differently, so you want to know your people, identify how they learn best. Is the ideal sales training bringing someone in and gathering people physically together? Is it more of an online learning? And mixing it up is never a bad thing. You can do partner sharing. In-person training sessions do make your sales meetings powerful. Combine some online learning in a way that works best for your people.
Matt Sunshine:Yeah. So this follow-up question to this is let me tee it up for you so do you think superstar? Do you think people with superstar talent let's assume they have superstar talent Do you think people with superstar talent that are not having success? So they are talented but they're not having success? Do you think that those superstar talent that wants to have success, do you think that the right combination of feedback and training could help them? Would they develop into superstars? And how long do you give that before you say enough's enough, they can't make it. I got to make a change around here.
Beth Sunshine:That's a million dollar question, all right. So I'll start with the assumption which is what you said that they have the innate talent. So if a seller has the innate talents to achieve superstar level success and the answer is yes, feedback and training will most definitely help them grow. Interesting to bit is when we spend time focused in our areas of strength, we can grow by as much as 10 times. That's significant growth. So you can think about anything you've ever done before. It could be a sport you've played, it doesn't matter anything that you have really become great at. Putting your time and energy into that thing is significant, because if you put that same time and energy into an area of weakness, you're going to grow marginally, typically by about 10%. So, restating your question if they have the innate talent, if you provide them with the coaching and the training and the feedback, that investment, they should be able to grow by 10 times. If they're not wired for that level of success like I said, most people are not wired to be sales superstars then all the feedback and training in the world is not going to get them to that level. It's going to get them 10% better, which is not fair to them and it's not fair to your organization.
Beth Sunshine:But assuming that they have the right stuff, then you need to start thinking. Of course it takes time. It takes a long time to learn a new organization, your products. There is a period of time that you really need to allow someone to acclimate a non-board. If they're not making it happen and I can't tell you what that period of time is, because it's different for every organization but if a manager reaches a point where they're like they should have we should be there by now and they're not, then I would start questioning engagement. Then I would start thinking about is this culture the right fit for them? Are they engaged? Are they showing up to work with their sleeves rolled up, excited to make this happen? Because someone who is highly talented but who's dragging themselves into work, who's not engaged, who doesn't really care about the company, the mission, they're not going to activate their talents fully. It could be if they have the talents and they're not succeeding.
Beth Sunshine:My bed is on an engagement issue. Now, as far as, how long do you wait? Here's my thought on this. If you have a really strong talent bank, teaming with superstars ready to get in the game, it is certainly easier to make that tough decision than it is if you have no other options to turn to. I think you need to start by recognizing do they have the potential to achieve what you want them to achieve? Have you, as a manager, then everything you can do to train them, to coach them, to give them that feedback, to invest in them. Is there something getting in the way of engagement that maybe you need to be aware of? Once you check all those boxes? If you're still mystified, it's probably time. I will say that when I was trained as a talent analyst, I had this fantastic trainer. This was a long time ago.
Beth Sunshine:She said something about strengths and weaknesses and how everyone had them. I was trying to rectify this. She said here's the thing. Yes, we're all humans, everybody has strengths, everybody has weaknesses. We need to put people in roles where they can use their strengths all the time, because obviously that's where they'll be successful. They need to have to use their weaknesses as infrequently as possible. The manager this is the important part the manager needs to own those weaknesses. When you hire someone, yes, they're human, they are going to have soft spots, but as a manager, you have to own that. You have to say can I own the fact that this person is not naturally gifted here. They're probably going to struggle. I'm going to need to put some more friends in place. Sometimes it's a matter of looking in the mirror. Did I do what I needed to do as a manager? Did I coach them the way I needed to coach them? I'd hate to let someone go until I knew the answer to that was yes.
Matt Sunshine:All right With that. We're going to leave it there. That's a great place to end. If you want to continue the conversation with Beth, all of her contact information will be in the show notes, but you can always just go to LinkedIn and type in Beth Sunshine, the Center for Sales Strategy, and you'll have no problem finding her there. Thank you so much for joining us and be sure to listen to the next podcast of the Improving Sales Performance Podcast. This has been Improving Sales Performance. Thanks for listening. If you like what you heard, join us every week by clicking the subscribe button. For more on the topics covered in the show, visit our website, thecenterforsalesstrategycom, where you can find helpful resources and content aimed at improving your sales performance.
