A Call To Leadership

EP149: From Catholic Priest to Leadership Coach - Examining Crises in Leadership, Part 2 with Matthew Brackett

• Matthew Brackett

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Join us as we continue our conversation with Matthew Brackett and his unique story of transitioning from priesthood to leadership coaching. Today, he'll share valuable insights into the academic aspects of leadership, including the underlying principles and factors that influence leaders. You won't want to miss the powerful nuggets of wisdom he has to offer!

Key takeaways to listen for

  • Prevalent issues in the study of leadership and how to solve them
  • Matthew’s journey to becoming a leadership coach and speaker
  • How you can embody servant and transformational leadership
  • Challenges to the ethical principles of leadership 
  • The impact of empathy and charisma on effective leadership
  • What does leadership look like from a political standpoint?


Resources Mentioned In This Episode


About Matthew Brackett
Matthew Brackett is a global leadership coach passionate about positive leadership and influence. He dreams of utilizing his gifts, experience, and knowledge to impact and transform lives through leadership.

With over 30 years of experience in leadership positions and leadership development in six countries across languages and multiple cultures, Matthew has a wealth of expertise. Additionally, he has served as a special Staff Officer and Chaplain in the United States Navy, working alongside both Sailors and Marines. These experiences have granted him extensive knowledge and insight into collaborating with diverse communities and leaders around the globe.

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[00:00:00] Mattew Brackett
When you're in a position of power, I consider it a very sacred responsibility. You're given that authority or that power not to lord it over others, but to help others grow, to serve others. This goes in any sector. Sometimes we have to give difficult feedback. We have to lay out the law once in a while. There's accountability. Servant, it's not a soft word. 

[00:00:23] Dr. Nate Salah
Hello my friend and welcome to this Wednesday episode of A Call to Leadership. I'm Dr. Nate Salah, your host, and I'm so glad you are here. Every Wednesday we have. An expert join us in a different area of leadership, and this is an important episode on the crisis in leadership, in community, in family, in civic circles, in industry. It's true. There is a crisis in leadership, and we really need transparent, vulnerable discussion to uncover these obstacles, move forward into opportunity. So I've invited a very special guest on the program for a two part series to address this leadership crisis. A former Catholic priest who served for 30 years in various roles in and out of the Vatican, Matthew Brackettt, who will share parts of his evolving leadership story with courage, with compassion, with inspiration. Let's listen in. Matthew, so glad to have you back on the show after we had a wonderful conversation around some of your backstory.

[00:01:24] Mattew Brackett
Thank you, Nate. It's great to be here again and to be with your audience. 

[00:01:28] Dr. Nate Salah
Absolutely. Yeah. And if you haven't listened to the last episode and you're listening to this one with Matthew and I talking about his backstory in the priesthood and leadership and some of the challenges that he faced, go back and listen. In fact, I would encourage you to stop here, go back and listen to those episodes and then pick back up because there's so much information, so much deep content on leadership as we preface our Ongoing conversation. So Matthew, we left the conversation with sharing this journey that you were on through life, right? 30 years in the priesthood. Wow. I mean, that's monumental. It's epic. And moving out of that into academia as far as leadership journey, right? Because obviously you had academic experience in the priesthood, but moving into a master's degree of leadership, people don't even know. You may get this question too. He was like, Oh, you can get a degree in leadership, right? People don't even know that there is an entire body of study around this concept and this construct of leadership. What were some of your motivations for that? 

[00:02:32] Mattew Brackett
The one, there's different ways I can answer that, but I think part of it was my own transition. I needed to figure out what my new professional identity was going to be, how I was going to continue to serve people because I'm passionate about the human person. And I'm passionate about the beautiful complexities of the human person and leadership is 1 of those things that is always part of the human experience and has been ever since we've existed. And it always will be, but it will always will be. And I've said this before where the healthy and wholesome leadership is so life giving and transformative and negative or unhealthy leadership or dysfunctional. To the end of the spectrum, which is toxic is very, very destructive. So, because I'm thinking I'm passionate about the human person, then I'm also passionate about about proper leadership.

[00:03:24]
So, when I was figuring out my new professional identity, how to continue to serve 2 things came to mind the coaching world, which is an up and coming market. And I'm very comfortable in the one on one space and in the educational or the speaking space and I just saw that as a natural fit and I saw leadership is, there's a sort of a lot of cacophony or a lot of noise in the leadership space where everyone considers themselves experts and talks about it ends up meaning everything and nothing at the same time. Yeah, a lot of people break it down to just a lot of nice phrases that then you don't know what to do with those phrases.

[00:03:56] Dr. Nate Salah
Yeah. Yeah. In fact, it's funny you bring that up because I'm smiling. This word expert, right? It's a dangerous word, and you probably experienced this when you embark on a journey, particularly academic in such a varied and diverse and wide, just a deep, deep field leadership. It's interdisciplinary, and you have many different aspects of the leadership that. Are clear, but you have many that are unclear, right? Many of that are, as you said, contested in, even in the body of scholarship. So for a listener who hasn't been this down this road of academic research and leadership, one of the first things that you uncover, and Matthew probably uncovered this early on in your journey as well, is that oftentimes there is some agreement, but often there's a lot of disagreement on what leadership is and effective forms of leadership and so on and so forth.

[00:04:47]
In fact, one of my early books was a book, the theory of leadership. By James McGregor Burns, he was an editor, but he brought a number of different individuals around him after he had been in the leadership field for over three decades to see if there was a unified theory of leadership that these scholars could come together on, right? So he had an anthropologist, he had leadership scholars, and we had philosophers, people from all different disciplines who all focused on different aspects of leadership. And I know, you know, where I'm going with this right at the end of the study or the work that they all done together, he realized and said very eloquently that it's almost impossible to have a unified theory of leadership because of all the disciplines and all the viewpoints leadership. And so I say all that to say this back to the word expert, right? It's humbling to stand in the sphere. Where there is endless research, endless ideologies on how leadership is most effective in, let's just say, the marketplace. And so what it does for me is, the more I learn, the more I realize just how much I don't know. Right? It's a good place to be. So even the word expert to me is, it's a daunting word. Say, oh, oh, wow, you must have, you must have leadership, right? 

[00:06:00] Mattew Brackett
I'm careful, I'm very cautious about using that word. But, you know, when they teach us as entrepreneurs to market ourselves, well, everyone's, you got to mark yourself as an expert in this expert. And that, that's big word, right? And I think, like you said, the more we study, the more we enter into certain topics, the less we think that we are experts, right? 

[00:06:17] Dr. Nate Salah
Agreed. Yeah. Agreed. I think that's a good place to be because that's a teachable heart. Right. And truth be told, there are areas of your academic journey in relationship to your practitioner journey as a priest and all of your experiences. They give you a very unique perspective on leadership and just like myself and everyone else who is a student of both the applied and the academic world of leadership. So that gives us. An expertise, if you will, that is very unique in our unique sector. And so that I believe we should hold on to, we should embrace. In fact, when I was working on my dissertation, this is an interesting story. One of the professors said, by the time you're finished, he was talking to a group of us who are getting ready to embark on the dissertation journey. He said, by the time you're finished with your dissertation, you will be the world's foremost expert in this very narrow slice of scholarship.

[00:07:07]
And I was daunting. It was actually very intimidating to even think that there's no way I could be the world's foremost. Scholar and this very narrow slice of Scott and leadership. However, when you continue that journey and you have your own brick that you add to the wall of leadership, as you have bricks behind you, if anyone watching this on YouTube or any of your social media, you add your unique brick. Number one, it's likely that no one else on the planet cares as much as you about that one brick. And two, there should be no one else who has studied intently that very specific segment of knowledge, right? That segment or that interaction or that intersection of knowledge, i. e. for me, my PhD work was on Milton Hershey, Walt Disney, and Steve Jobs and their vision formation and vision actualization process and how they shared in themes essential to the formation and actualization of their visionary leadership.

[00:07:58]
Now, There are scholars who know more about each of those individuals than myself, however, I should be the only person on the planet that can share intimately how these three shared in their formation of visionary leadership, what themes developed amongst the three of them. Right. And I think that's the area that we can not. Explain that we're experts in through bravado or through arrogance that really just like a confident measure of security that we can have you mentioned serve right the way we can serve people in a greater way in a more impactful way in a way that progresses the human condition forward. Because you and I know very well, and I'd love to get your opinion on this, that leadership, as we started out in our very early talkings about leadership, is in crisis. It still continues to be in crisis, and whether it's moral leadership, ethical leadership, serving leadership, adaptation, adaptive leadership, transforming leadership, all these areas of leadership have room to grow through the effort of those who care so deeply about the journey of leadership. Thank you. Like yourself. Yep. That's a mouthful, right? So you get into this journey, if you will, this next chapter of life, you want to find a way to serve through coaching or other aspects of leadership. So let's continue that. 

[00:09:26] Mattew Brackett
All right, coaching, coaching and speaking. I do my due diligence to get certified as a professional coach in the International Coaching Federation. And for me, that's important. And to have those credentials. And then I've served the Navy. And so I was left with this gift called the GI Bill. And so I said, Oh, okay, I wasn't expecting this. And thank you for your service. So I said, well, I said, well, leadership. And I was sort of frustrated with the leadership space. Because of what I said before, and so let's find the program and you'll be your listeners will be surprised that there's so many programs about leadership, but there's some of them seemed a bit superficial for me. And so I came across this program at Penn State called The Psychology of Leadership and part of their humanities department.

[00:10:08]
And so that was it because it was really the study of leadership through human behavior. The human behavior of the person in leadership and human behavior of the follower, and then the human behavior that happens in the context, right? Those three elements of the leadership process. And so I said, all right, this is a deeper thing than this is something that I want to study so that I can bring more solid content to the area of leadership in that. So that I can be as an advisor and a consultant and as an educator and speaker, I can offer. Solid stuff and about what leadership is and the different types of leadership and how to bring that forward, how each person can find their best type of leadership for certain situations and jobs and context. That's essentially why I did it. So I dedicated 2 years to that program and it was fascinating. And I, like you said, I think finishing the program, like, oh, I. There's so much more to learn. But again, I dedicated two years to the study of leadership through academics and not just through the sort of the books that the mainstream books that you'll find in bookstores on leadership, which are valid, right?

[00:11:11]
But I think, but when you bring those two together, then I think you really have some really good stuff. I just want to answer something or say something that as a priest, I also did very specialized studies on human development, and then really the use of authority and. In faith's context and in the formation of people for what we would call consecrated and priestly life. So I wrote a dissertation on the proper environment and climate for education and formation for a priestly and consecrated life. Precisely because I was, you know, I was, again, authority is something that I came across that I had in ministry, in different roles. And then just because you're in ministry, you have this authority. But then I was also in leadership roles. And then I worked with a lot of people in leadership roles, and I was probably quite dysfunctional organization and their use of authority and not only the organization as a religious order, but then also in the wider, broader Catholic church, any faith institution, I'm just talking about the Catholic church right now, there's still a lot of dysfunction in the use of authority and a lot of abuse. So I, this was very close to my heart because it's something that I've lived. It's something that I've seen others suffer through. So there's a very personal element to it as well. 

[00:12:17] Dr. Nate Salah
Just for our listener to know, these are not unscripted conversations. In fact, there's very little prep work. We just simply have a very brief conversation before we go on here. And so these questions that I'm asking Matthew, he has no idea what I'm going to ask him, which means he's truly thinking extemporaneously and not rehearsing any type of response. I preface that because this question, maybe something you've thought about, maybe something I doubt maybe anyone's ever asked you, or perhaps you haven't asked this. Would you ever consider consulting the Catholic Church? 

[00:12:48] Mattew Brackett
Well, of course I would. Yes. Okay. I'm something I'm very interested in. In fact, I'm living in Mexico City right now, but I've invited to give a few conferences to groups of priests and leadership. Which is a big deal because when you walk away from ministry and you're usually not a welcome element and whether that be subconsciously or consciously into the circles, at least for a given period of time. And then the religious organization that I was part of, there's a lot of people in that organization that want me to function as an advisor and consultant and I won't filter it here. There's a lot of ego and a lot of pride in organizations and so welcome someone back who left doesn't feel good. Yeah, not always so much. I'd love to. Right. It's not a good look and some, you know, in the eyes of authority. And so what's the message that we'd be giving our people? Would we be encouraging other people to step away or what? So yes, that's something being invited to either as a coach or as an advisor or as an educated, certain areas of leadership in Catholic church. And I would definitely be open to that. 

[00:13:46] Dr. Nate Salah
And I'm glad to hear that on some level that you've been welcomed because you hold such a unique perspective that has merit in those contexts, particularly not only from the. The pain that you endured, however difficult that, that was, you still are not jaded. You're not someone who has written off your experience as unreconcilable from the perspective of how can I continue to be a difference maker in this area that is so dear to my formation as a leader, as a scholar, as a human being who understands the depth of pain. And sorrow that can be faced in, as you stated, a dysfunctional environment that has opportunity. To come out of that. And so I commend you for that. 

[00:14:38] Mattew Brackett
Thank you. Yes, I know. I'm very grateful for where I'm at in life and how I live this process because I've seen a lot of other people. You know, you, you step away from ministry for all different reasons. Sometimes you're sort of in a pushed into a corner where you have to make quick decisions and I wasn't in that situation. So I was able to work through a lot of things, reconcile a lot of things and not make a decision from place of negativity or from anger or from bitterness. And I didn't want to make a decision from that place, and I didn't want to carry that around, and you use the word jaded, so I think I might be critical of certain things, but I will call it a constructive criticism because I care. My faith is important to me, the institution is important to me, and I've seen so many wonderful things in the institutions, and I've also seen so much damage done, and so that's why I get very passionate about it. And I continue to see the situation so poorly managed and people continue to get hurt and that's part of the human condition. It's always gonna be there, but we want to minimize it. 

[00:15:38] Dr. Nate Salah
Absolutely. Yeah. And so doing your emotional maturity. Is very clear in this area, and I've come to believe embrace emotional intelligence and far more pragmatic ways, even then, than IQ, right? A self regulation, self awareness, motivation, different areas of how we look at being emotionally intelligent or in some ways, emotionally mature. And I suspect that sometimes in environments that don't welcome you. For those reasons of, oh, you left and you're an apostate, I suspect that viewpoint has some challenges in terms of identifying really the true nature of progress, right? Because the true nature of progress does not focus on the individual in terms of how this individual has made me feel, so to speak, right? The true nature of this environment as a whole, this institution as a whole. What are the factors that are necessary? To move this institution forward. I'm going to take a drink while you respond to that. 

[00:16:45] Mattew Brackett
Yeah, the big picture. The big picture is always important in progress and making decisions. I would, I do want to correct a little bit what you said. It's not like, I think that also the church has progressed in this way. When people leave ministry, they're no longer considered apostates or they're no longer rejected. Oh, good. It's more just there's an emotional thing that people take some time to get over.  

[00:17:05] Dr. Nate Salah
I think it's an individual thing rather than the church. Correct. In terms of church position, the church has changed.

[00:17:09] Mattew Brackett
It's a lot of it's even the process and its language that uses around this. I don't know if you want to get into this, but the old document of what they would call dispensation when you're released from priestly obligations and duties was sort of a document, um, had a very negative connotation to it and told you all the things that you couldn't do. And now it's no longer like that. It's a very encouraging document that you become part of continue to be part of the body of the church.

[00:17:33] Dr. Nate Salah
Yeah. Wonderful. And I'm glad to hear that. And I'm sure a listener is glad to hear that as well. You mentioned ministry, and it's interesting you bring that up because, you know, leaving the ministry, of course, that is a specific ministry. And you'd mentioned your faith being important to you as is mine. When I was a new follower of Christ, I thought I needed to go, quote unquote, into the ministry, right? I thought I, Needed to go into pastoral work because I thought that that was the natural progression of a spirit filled faithful person. And my wife in her infinite wisdom said, well, I, I've been started in the seminary. And she said, you know, why don't you get, earn your master's degree first and business, and then allow your spiritual formation to take hold. And see where God is taking you. Well, of course, as I matured spiritually, I recognized that ministry was not a destination. It wasn't a place to go. It was a person to be. And that changed things for me. Because ministry for me was no matter where I am, no matter what context I'm in, I get to share my understanding of God's love in everywhere I go. Right. Have you identified your business and coaching and speaking as ministry?

[00:18:52] Mattew Brackett
I have, I will always be a minister at heart. And I think ministry is also, it's just about service. Then there's formal ministry, what I would call, you know, professional formal ministry. And then there's the informal, which is what you do and what, what I'm trying to do. I will always be a minister at heart. And so minister, meaning a servant. And so, yes, so I do see my work as that. And there's always a, even though I took the collar off and all that, I think there's being, there's so many elements about priesthood that are part of who I am and they always will be. 

[00:19:22] Dr. Nate Salah
I love that. You mentioned the word servant, and I'd like to take a tangent here and talk a little bit about these crises and leadership that we've identified and talk through a little bit. I can go through a litany of crises, right? Just from business context, think about all the way back to 2000 and Ron Arthur Andersen, Tyco, Worldcom, Toshiba. I mean, there are, oh gosh, the more recent one, the gal that Theranos, the medical one, right? And they go on and on, right? Around leadership ethics around this idea of principles or standards. Right? So for someone listening, you've heard the word ethics. You've heard the words serving. What are ethics ethics? Their principles, their standards are governed conduct. They govern our actions. They help us to consider what's right and wrong. What's fair. What's unfair and they guide our habits, our behaviors, and this idea of serving is very related to how we view leadership.

[00:20:20]
And so more and more, we've heard about transformational leadership and we've turned about servant leadership or serving leadership, and I've come to embrace it. In fact, I understood very vaguely the concept of. Servant leadership and transformational leadership before I began my academic journey, but once I began my academic journey, I, as you did as well, you begin to really understand most of the underpinnings of the approaches, right? The theoretical constructs of leadership and. Of course, Jesus was a huge on servant leadership, right? In fact, there's an old story and I'll tell, I'll paraphrase the story of a couple of his followers, his disciples, and they were very, uh, zealous, right? They were called the Sons of Thunder, right? So that's pretty zealous guys, right? And so they come to Jesus, mom, them, whichever way you see the story, and they want to aim for greatness. They want to be great. So they asked Jesus if they could stand, if they can take a position of honor. When he comes into his kingdom, they want that position of honor. And number one, all the other disciples are grumbling like, hey, you know, who are you to ask for that kind of position?

[00:21:29]
They thought it was insulting. But Jesus, interestingly, As the story goes, he does not rebuke them for desiring to aim for greatness. He simply redirects their path. He redirects their focus. So their focus was on me. How can I elevate my position, right? My prestige, my power. And Jesus refocuses. He says, again, paraphrasing, he says, The pathway to greatness isn't lording over others, right? It's serving. He says, the one who is greatest among you. The one who's greatest among you is your servant. If anyone wants to be great, learn to serve. It's such a beautiful portrayal of this embodiment of how we, number one, aim for greatness and leadership. Number two, how we guide a self so that we can elevate the cause above the individual. How have you come to understand this concept of servant leadership? Are you utilizing it? Are you seeing it in action? What's going on with you with this concept? 

[00:22:39] Mattew Brackett
I think I utilize it because of the faith background, but yes, learning when you're in a position of power. It's, I consider it a very sacred responsibility, and you're given that authority or that power, not to lord it over others, as you just said, but to help others grow, to serve others. And this goes in any sector. There's different ways, obviously, it's not that you're, how to interpret servant leadership, it's not that you're always there, you know. that you have a job to do, when serving others and leading properly is a way that I have to be professional. I have to be clear. It's one of the greatest gifts that we can give our people is clarity of communication. And sometimes we have to give difficult feedback and we have to lay out the law once in a while. All right, there's accountability. It's not a servant. It's not a soft word. And that's what we have to be careful whether we think of servants is like, oh, he's a very humble background pushover over no self esteem just because I'm put in a position to be able to help others grow. Right. And if we go to the political sphere, I'm put in a position as a public servant, right? Civil servant. Yes. That's what they call them to serve the common good, not to serve myself now, because we are as human beings because of our ego. There is this. Tendency or tension or temptation to become full of ourselves, right?

[00:24:00]
To use authority and power in positions to do that. And that's understandable. It's natural, but that's why I'm going back then to self awareness, why someone in leadership has to be so that have that self awareness to keep themselves in check so that the ego doesn't take over. And so they continue to use their authority and that position of leadership to serve. In my own positions of leadership that had directed roles in different places in different countries. I would like to say that I always look to serve. Did I make mistakes? Of course, I did a lot of some experiences I would like to take back. Of course, but generally, I think in people that I worked with, they experienced that I was there to serve them and that I tried to use my authority in that position of leadership in a very respectful way.

[00:24:45] Dr. Nate Salah
Yes. Yes. And I'm glad you make that distinction because. It can seem as though the servant leader is a weak leader and in reality, it's just the opposite because the servant leader is not threatened and there's a clear distinction because if you're not threatened, then you can walk in confidence, right? And so when you live in a way that you don't have to wield your sword, so to speak, right? Meekness is, of course, not weakness. It's power under control. And when the focus is, how can I provide the pathway, the resources, the tools necessary for you to do your best possible work, for you to reach your best possible state within the agreed confines of this relationship, i.e. as you said, politics, there's an agreement in politics. There's an agreement of civil obedience in relationship to security. And many other agreements we make, there are agreements in commerce, there are agreements in families that we make. And so when we're focused on how can I serve you so that you can function most effectively toward reaching and meeting our desired common cause, our desired goals.

[00:26:01]
That's a good place to be because when you're an employer, when you're, as you said, a civil servant, when you're a parent, when you're a friend, You have the opportunity then to walk with vulnerability, with transparency, with courage. With a common interest. And I believe that this isn't academic Nate Salah. This is the practitioner, Nate Salah. I haven't always been a servant leader. And so when I was new in business, I was more of a boiler room leader. I don't know if you may or may not have seen that movie, but I was shabby. I was scrappy. I was somewhat ethical in some ways, but I was also unethical, Matthew, if I'm just going to be completely transparent, right? I had very little, I had some moral fiber. But I was okay with lying. I was okay with some cheating, right? I was okay with a lack of a strong gold standard of ethical conduct. And honestly, it wasn't until I did start learning about Jesus's model for leadership that it opened up a new ideology for me that there was a better pathway to leading effectively.

[00:27:11]
Because I don't use the terminology any longer, good leadership, bad leadership. I just use ineffective and effective leadership. Yeah. And now in my organizations, my people know that my teams are focused on if we need Nate's Help to push our cause forward to progress in a way that meets our mission, our vision and it stays within the confines and the boundaries of our values, they will not stop until he helps us to reach those goals because the deep desire to serve the collective cause overrides my own personal gratification. And I think that's where some of the challenges we find. in the ethical models, right? The ethical roles that are broken down, whether it be a religious institution, whether it be an organization, and you had mentioned the ego, right? Different aspects of the self that find their way in. Now, that doesn't mean that you live a life that you don't have food to eat. We're not talking about a complete, having a lack of focus on your own needs, right? Of course you have to have your needs met, but there's a distinction, right? Between greed, self indulgence. The desire of self preservation over group desires and group needs in an organization. 

[00:28:28] Mattew Brackett
Yes, I think, yeah, and leadership just on the ethical side, it's when people have, well, it's, you know, the end justifies the means, which is not an ethical principle, right? But that's usually, well, if in the big picture, and then it's also, you know, leaders have, if. You know, they going back to self protection. They don't want certain consequences. And so how do I self protect when I have to figure out a way to do it? And oftentimes it's they're not transparent or it's dishonest or it's or they're willing to make other people suffer as long as they don't suffer. Um, they're all natural tendencies of the human person, but that's why about this universal principles of. Ethics of good conduct are just so important, right? And then they're how they're applied in each sector. I think when we talk about crisis of leadership, if you don't mind me going on. Bringing this in a different direction is when we look back to that, even in leadership studies, how leadership developed, you know, very authoritarian, because that was sort of the model for a lot of centuries.

[00:29:23]
And we came, you know, Greenleaf developed servant leadership. And then all these others, I think it changed all shifted with cultural changes and shifts. But I also see, I see that part of the crisis of leadership is there's a few things. One is we hold freedom as an absolute. Which, especially in our country, is a very sacred thing, freedom, right? And so all of a sudden, liberty has no limits and no bounds. I say that freedom is always subject to context. And so it's not an absolute. And so I think part of the crisis of leadership is this, everyone wants this total liberty and freedom, right? And so That's one thing is everyone wants to do what they want to do with disregard for others. And then the use of authority to do that as well. Then being protecting yourself by your position to be able to do that. And then there's you said there's been so many mistakes made that people have rejected authority in a certain way in a lot of institutions and a lot of sectors. So many mistakes that people don't.

[00:30:22]
Trust leadership or the trust has been broken and there's a disregard for leadership. There's a great disrespect and I think in leadership, we brought it on ourselves through those behaviors. And so it's a journey now to win back that trust. And I think this is just part of the crisis of leadership. But I think it has a lot to do with what's happened culturally as well. But then it's also behaviors. And then there's this sort of this. Rejection towards authority because we've been hurt by authority. I think that's part of the crisis. And then I would highlight a few other elements of the crisis is going back to this lack of self awareness. I consider self awareness 1 of the greatest leadership assets and the lack of 1 of the greatest leadership liabilities. And so there's self awareness. There's the lack of self awareness. There's a high veneration for activity. In the corporate world, for example, the busy you are, we praise that more and sort of make that a sacred thing. We venerate activity over balance and we're believing that organizations are machines.

[00:31:26]
We're forgetting of the human element and focusing on outcomes and not on causes. That goes back to the ethical part. Well, as long as the outcome is what we want, well, then it doesn't matter how we get there. And then we're leadership. I think leadership positions, you know, when we talk about charisma, People that have a natural charisma doesn't necessarily mean they have a great ability to influence people, but they, there's a great danger that they're not going to use that always in a healthy way, if it's not kept in check. If someone with charisma who has great self awareness and accountability mechanisms, that's a great setup. But when you have a charisma, which is more comes from personality traits, but then also some narcissism that's hidden in there, and when you're in these positions, then all of a sudden, you become very self-centered. Right. And this is, I think this is some of the pieces of the crisis of leadership.

[00:32:16] Dr. Nate Salah
No, I agree. Yeah. And so where I tend to find. I'm glad you brought up the charismatic leader, because as we both know, especially in some of the earlier leadership models, charismatic leadership has been known to draw people into movements that are extremely detrimental to not only themselves, but their entire societies, right? We can look at a Hitler. Or others who have been charismatic leaders at the same time on the flip side of it. You can look at JFK or Martin Luther King, Jr. Who also charismatic leaders who were directly involved with positive change, change that help people now, some may argue, but there's some stark contrast. Between those archetypes, if you will, right? Of leaders, right? So one type of leader takes their entire nation into a crisis that ripples through history and partly through this charismatic movement. In fact, I don't know if you've ever studied Hitler at all, but some of his speeches, of course, I don't speak any German from some translators that the air in the room of his speeches.

[00:33:15]
One journalist said that it was so moving that the hairs on his arms were standing up. It was not even a fan. He was just there to record the speech. And so for us, it's difficult, especially those of us who don't speak German or of course you're in a room and that changes the dynamics of how you feel. But you can imagine that how having a high level of charismatic communication can override logic reason, rational decision making. It can be dangerous. And I think one of the pieces to emotional intelligence that speaks to that as well is empathy. Because a truly empathetic person will have empathy not only for a very specific cause, but have a wider, broader understanding of empathy, i.e. we can make the argument that Hitler had very little empathy for the Jewish people. If any at all, right? Zero based on his actions. An empathetic person would say, no, this is wrong because it hurts people. And so we can then identify some aspects of this crisis in leadership is how much true empathy do you have for those who perhaps not only won't stand to gain from your movement, but will be in direct in the direct pathway.

[00:34:34]
Of destruction, and if you have none or very little, you likely will make unethical decisions, which will lead you into a further crisis of your leadership, right? That's something to keep in check. And someone listening might say, well, you know, I'm not okay. I get it. And it's good that I'm listening to this conversation because I'm checking off some boxes of perhaps I'm not a Hitler, so to speak, right? But at the same time, maybe my level of empathy can be increased. Because perhaps I do want to be a more effective leader. I don't want to stand. I don't want to look back at some aspect of my leadership later and say, boy, you know what? I was part of a crisis in leadership, whether it's my organization or my family or my institution or my community. This is something that perhaps we should talk about even for a few brief moments of developing a sense of empathy. That's beyond, by the way, your direct pathway or your direct institutional stakeholders, right? Because there are indirect casualties just as well as direct casualties. Of course. Let's talk about that. Have you always been an empathetic person? 

[00:35:38] Mattew Brackett
Yes. I think it's part of my personality, a bit more sensitive, but then feel that I worked in. I think it helped me develop that. So yes, um, what I would, you know, I would say to your audience is if you're in a position, I mean, empathy is so important and not only when you're in a position of authority, but you know, think of leadership starts with yourself, but then also, you know, that empathy that we can also exercise with ourselves, but also inner circles at home, if you're a parent, if you're a spouse, there's empathy that's so important that that exists there. And then in the professional sphere as well. Thank you. It's such a big time, because I think when we look across society, it's very hurtful and hard to see how harsh people are with each other, how much judgment, how much the lack of understanding the words that people throw out there, whether it be in the public sphere, whether it be on social media or anything like that, the whole thing and do unto others as you would like them to do unto you.

[00:36:28]
Right. And all these golden rules, and it's kind of thrown out the window, right? It's a great lack of. Empathy and sensitivity towards others. If someone is in a position of power, right, or we call it a position of leadership, I would encourage your listeners to think about empathy, to think about moral character, to think about your integrity, to think about the person, because you have to keep yourself in check or set up mechanisms that keep you in check because of who we are as human beings. That will increase your credibility, and that will increase trust in the organization. If you have charisma, because some people have this natural charisma, if you have charisma, I would say the same thing. We have to work very hard on keeping your character, your moral character, your ethical character, your integrity in check, because charisma can take over and throw everything else out the window, as we were talking about. Um, because charisma is such a gift, but it can also be so dangerous. Yeah. And because of the power that we were talking about. 

[00:37:29] Dr. Nate Salah
Yeah, the relationship between charisma and true empathy. I think it cannot be understated. And when I say true empathy, I'm talking about a genuine and sincere empathy. Let's talk about politics for just a moment. We'll use that as a backdrop, right? Yes. When there's a politician who says, I want to make sure that I, you know, reach across the aisle so that I can meet the needs of those who perhaps didn't vote for me. Generally speaking, those who didn't vote for this individual might say, you know what, you really don't care. I mean, let's just call it what it is. That's how I perceive. Your words, right? As empty as empathetic to my problems, because generally speaking, people vote for people who they believe will help to solve their problems. Right? And so the problems are wide and varied. And that's why political leadership is such a difficult conversation, even talk about amongst leadership, right? To say, let's break down leadership from a political perspective, because generally speaking, Half of your constituents, at least in the United States, may have not voted for you, right? Because they want somebody else to lead them. So this creates a difficulty in understanding how we can effectively lead.

[00:38:38]
But it reminds me of during, I think it was 92, where Bill Clinton was after the debates. He was in the, uh, after he got the nomination. And he said something about the American people. He was talking about the American people. And he said that he, this is in his speech, he said, you know, I feel Your pain and he said it in such a way that was resonant and whether you voted for him or not It struck a chord and it was a position of empathy, right? This is a position of true real empathy where again whether you believe it or not It's kind of irrelevant at this point. But the point is is that he was able to deeply connect with those individuals who agreed that they were in pain And that he could feel their pain, very charismatic person as well. Now you can make lots of arguments about this is a very slippery slope when we start the conversation around politics. However, I think it's a great example of connecting. With individuals on an empathetic level that garners, as you said earlier, trust. The other side of it is this once trust has been broken, it's difficult, but it's not impossible to regain trust.

[00:39:53]
And this doesn't even have to be in politics. It can be in a family. Sometimes as a parent, I've missed it and totally botched it. As a husband, I've totally put my foot in my mouth. I've said something that I shouldn't have said. I've acted in a way I shouldn't have acted. And more often than not today. Is I will as quickly as possible, step back and with humility and say, Hey, I really missed it here. I'd like another opportunity to make this right and I'm sorry, and I perhaps can't understand exactly how you feel, but I know that acted in a way that's not aligned with my values and my commitment. And Brother Matthew, that changes the entire atmosphere of the conversation. And of course, I'll have to take steps that are contrary to the steps that I had already taken. Perhaps several iterations over to rebuild a foundation for trust. But it's not impossible. 

[00:40:52] Mattew Brackett
Right and take steps that are in line with the humility that you mentioned that I owned my mistake then you take steps that are in line with that This is huge like you said There's a huge sigh of relief when people own their mistakes because they're also it's like oh everyone says oh at least they realize They made a mistake Well, there's sort of like the sense that the person really made a mess of something and they didn't even realize it. Well, how are we going to trust? Well, this would be wonderful to see in politics, right? In civil servants and in many other fields. It's such a beautiful thing. It is such a great way to build trust and then behaviors that align with that. 

[00:41:25] Dr. Nate Salah
Yes. And that's the key is the key is that opens door. I love the sigh of relief that you mentioned because it really truly is a sigh of relief that someone will take responsibility. Take ownership. I would tell this to my son, you know, if you've made a mistake as quickly as humanly possible. And say, look, this is where I feel don't stay there, but stay there long enough to where you're clear on the accountability that I want to hold myself accountable for this. Here are the steps I'm taking to correct it. Here are the steps I'm taking to make it right. In fact, nowadays, when we have clients, of course, you know, I own an accounting and advisory business and every so often there's a mistake made, of course, we're still humans, even AI still makes mistakes. So we'll be making mistakes. I'm sure as long as there is humanity, right? Right. And so when I'm having a conversation with a client and one of the questions I do ask is what can we do to make this right? Here's some proposals I have to make this right. What else can I do? Is there anything else I can do to make this right? And just that conversation, right? As you said, the sigh of relief, it's monumental, right?

[00:42:30]
Because something happens within us as human beings. With humility, I think humility is one of the most beautiful aspects of our human condition, our human experience, right? And perhaps we can talk about this on another episode, really just broach this idea of humility and how it fits into the leadership model, because I think this is an area of ambiguity for a lot of people. But walking in that, that sense of, of I'm not here to injure anyone. I may have injured you in some way or another. But my goal is to help you to walk in safety and peace, because I really believe that those are two aspects of our journey that should be non negotiable. The right, To have security and the right to have peace. And if there are individuals in our lives who are impeding that, then we have the right to put boundaries and borders up, so that we can live in peace and security. And I like that you may have picked up that I didn't mention freedom, right? Because I didn't agree with you on the freedom. But we can secure our peace, which is in our heart, and we can secure our standard of safety. Mm hmm. As human beings, and when I injure that, it's my responsibility as a leader, particularly. To step in and, as you said, take ownership and work to make it right. Sometimes you can't make it right. Sometimes the relationship may be too broken, too injured. 

[00:43:51] Mattew Brackett
But you can still, yeah, you can take ownership and maybe and then agree to go different ways. Humility is such a superpower. And again, it's underrated. Like the, I forget the other concept that we were talking about that people would consider it a weakness. A weakness. Yes. And humility could be considered weakness. Love. That's why, you know, my, we talk about lead better, love better, live better, but love is not a weak word either. Neither is humility. The strength of character that is necessary for all of these. And for servant. That was the other concept. So being a servant for humility, for love, such. Strong superpowers agreed.

[00:44:25] Dr. Nate Salah
I can't believe our time goes by so fast. These conversations are so important impactful and such great content. I'm just really thankful for you. I'm thankful for our discussions as they we continue to evolve them and grow and just you being a willing witness to the power of effective leadership. Yes. Thank you for being a part of this conversation. Thank you very much. Well, my friend, thank you for joining me on this episode of A Call to Leadership. If you've been listening, you've probably heard me talk about our accounting and advisory business and this show was actually born out of that business. Those relationships. I found that entrepreneurs and professionals were missing aspects of their leadership that fed into their bottom line and help their businesses be successful. So, I'm so thankful. I'm thankful that I've had all those years in that area to feed into this. And the truth is that so many people still need accounting and advisory help and they don't know where to go. If you're in that place where you feel, Oh my goodness, my tax person or my accountant, I can't find them. Or maybe the service wasn't up to my expectations. Do not despair. I'll leave how you can find us in the show notes and one of my team members can do some discovery and help you along your journey. You're not alone. My friend. friend. You always have help. I'm Dr. Nate Salah. Can't wait to see you on the next show of A Call to Leadership.

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