[00:00:00] Dr. Nate Salah
Hello, my friend, and welcome to this two-part series of A Call to Leadership. I'm Dr. Nate Salah, your host, I am so glad you are here. Well, for this series, we're embarking on a journey to discuss and discover a controversial phenomenon, something that is among us in our society, in our news in our music in our culture, trans gender is a many people don't understand it, many people are confused by it, it is here. And I've invited someone who has experienced the transgenderism, firsthand, and transitioning to transgender, and detransitioning from transgender. And what a story D Miller has before us on her life, her experience and how she stands in the gap. To help those who desire to detransition themselves. I can't wait for you to listen in. I'm Dr. Salah. And this is A Call to Leadership. D. Welcome.
[00:01:06] Dee Miller
Thanks, Nate for having me.
[00:01:08] Dr. Nate Salah
You are an incredible person who's lived an incredible life. And your story must be told the journey that many people face today. Also the journey that some of us don't quite understand. And we need help to better understand some of the challenges we're facing through society. And for folks who are new to the conversation, or trying to understand some of the foundational aspects of the Trans World, I think it's a good place to start and just identify some baselines before we get into your story, which is incredible. What is a trans person?
[00:01:49] Dee Miller
That's a great question, Nate, what is a trans person?
[00:01:53] Dr. Nate Salah
What is a trans person? Because somebody is listening to saw the title of the show? And they're interested, okay, you know, there's so much media, there's so much going on. You see in Hollywood kids are becoming trans kids, we call gender reassignment. I don't want to mess up any language.
[00:02:12] Dee Miller
Well, it's changing every day, you know, what's the political correct way to say it anymore, and it's hard to keep up. You know, it was 1984, when I moved to St. Louis, to begin my journey. And think about it, well, it's actually 86 is 84, I began my journey, but it was 86 when I moved to St. Louis, and back then it was just called sex change. I'll direct is that, you know, now is called gender affirmation surgery, because everything has to have a positive spin to it. And so it's we want to align how someone feels with what their outside is. And so that's what it is. It's gender identity disorder. Well, nobody wants to have a disorder. So you know, a disease, we don't want to have anything where we feel uncomfortable. So we want to change the outside to meet how someone feels on the inside.
[00:03:06]
And so, therefore, they're calling gender affirmation surgery. And basically, we're lying to our kids that we can make their outside lineup to how they feel on the inside. That's my personal opinion that we're lying to the our kids that we can do that. And when you say our kids are older, these kids, the last I heard, now, we're fortunate here in the state of Missouri, that they've passed the Missouri SAFE Act where nobody under 18 can have gender affirmation care. But in other states, I've heard they'll start as young as five, doing puberty blockers and anything. So at 13, obviously, is when they would start to keep them from going into puberty, where they'll get peepee care or they'll breast would start to grow or anything like that. I don't know, when they would actually begin a surgery.
[00:03:56]
I don't follow it that closely anymore. There was a show on the Learning Channel. You know, that was very distressing for me to watch, where the two surgeons were arguing over how to build this young man of vagina. And after the third surgery, I was like, Yeah, I'm done. We really don't know what we're doing. We're practicing. That's what service doctors are. They practice medicine. We really don't know what we're doing. We're practicing medicine on our kids. It's shameful. But that's the lie that we're selling. is you have this disorder, this feeling that you're not comfortable in your body and therefore we're going to help you by changing your outside to line up with your inside. It's so controversial. And is this What happened to you? Yeah, it is. The rules were way different for me, fortunately, and I didn't have the internet to diagnose myself. They love WebMD let's go out and see what's wrong with ourselves. Think about pre-internet days, the Dark Ages, you know, I moved twice.
[00:05:00]
Before I graduated high school, and so I lost my foundation of my friendships. And, you know, I grew up as a tomboy. And I was very comfortable with that, because my best friend was a tomboy, but then you move and then you move again. And, you know, I moved from a farming community to a very affluent neighborhood. And my hair wasn't dyed blonde, and I didn't really fit in. And it was very uncomfortable in so many ways, and I was bullied and all those fun things that every teenager goes through. I remember me reading the newspaper about a trans tennis player. And I was like, Oh, wow, I didn't know you could do that. I didn't know you could have the change the outside of who you were. But what do you do with that? I was 16 years old. I didn't have a supportive family. I didn't talk about it. I just remember thinking about it. In 16, is when I decided I'd commit suicide at 25.
[00:05:57] Dr. Nate Salah
Well, hold on a second there. That's yeah, that's a lot to unpack. Well, yeah. And when you say you didn't have a supportive family, to what extent?
[00:06:06] Dee Miller
Well, to every extent, I mean, I got up, get myself ready for school from I don't ever remember a mom that got me ready for school. I don't ever remember. being put to bed at night. I do remember being told to go to bed. But I don't ever remember being hugged. Being told that I was loved have once in the last couple years. I named myself the inconvenient child. I had two older brothers, my mom adored. But she didn't have time for a girl. My grandfather lived on a farm, which I later found out we owned the livestock that was on the farm. And I didn't even know that. But I had to keep up with my brothers and everything we did on the farm. You know, so I was treated like a boy. And so somewhere in my young age, I just thought it'd be a great idea. If I was a boy, I might get treated as an equal. Not that my mom got up and got the boys ready for school. But she was their Cub Scout leader. She was at their game, she was very involved in their lives where I was just an afterthought.
[00:07:08] Dr. Nate Salah
So did that have an impact on your desire to please?
[00:07:13] Dee Miller
I think there was a lot of influences on my desire to be a boy. I always say if the boys did something wrong, it was blamed on me. I learned very early on to just take the blame. The punishment was less. So am I saying I got beat? Yes, I'm saying I got beat. My dad was a workaholic. He was not home. I remember in my early, early 20s mom saying I was the apple of dad's eye and I'm like, wow, that was news to me. Don't ever remember dad having an interest in me. And that's what's so fascinating. Now when you look at like Daddy daughter dances and so fun that they have all these creative ways for dads to show their love to their daughters. I'm so excited to see those kinds of things and how our world has changed to where, you know, if you're not raised in a healthy church environment, that there's ways for dads to pour into their girls, because they need that affirmation from their dads.
[00:08:14]
And I never got that. I mean, stand on this movie trailer and hand out the poles for the electric fence. Come on, girl don't fall down. What are you doing? You know, I heard that but you sure are beautiful. I never heard anything. You always ask a kid. What do you want to be when you grow up? Whatever I dancer I always heard Are you sure you're smart enough for that? So I never heard anything positive ever. And so there's just a point you wonder why you're alive? You know, why am I here? And that was when you were 16 it 16 You know, that was the after the second move. There was no friendships ever that came out of that school. I always look back and I'm like, what was the driving force that kept me alive? Then why didn't they kill myself? Then why did I decide to wait till 25?
[00:09:01]
And fortunately, you know, I found Christ. You look back and you're like, Oh, that was a hand of God that kept me alive because I didn't find Christ before 25. But I think anybody that is a Christian, you can look back and say, Wow, that was God. I think it's interesting to think why did I pick 25 And I remember my mindset being all have seen everything and done everything there is to do on the world by 25. So untrue, to be an old lady now going, there's still so much more I want to experience.
[00:09:29] Dr. Nate Salah
So when you were on this journey, this early journey, and you felt I suspect isolated in some ways, from your, the love of your family, and the friend group. At that age, very formable age and isolated. I really believe that isolation is one of the vices of that dark road that leads to a lack of purpose, a lack of meaning, a lack of really any possibility for progress in life. because as human beings, we are communal creatures, we are creatures who desire to have a connection, first with our family, and then with our peer group course, in your case, you were able to find that connection with your faith in your mid 20s. And likewise, I had a very similar timeframe of that, during that formidable time, that teenage time, when you began to question, I suppose identity in some ways, what were the some of the things that were going on in your mind?
[00:11:04] Dee Miller
It was survival, the only thing I wanted to do is survive the day. I mean, this was when I laugh, because my parents gave me a car, I think, you know, the one things they did was they provided my ad shelter, I had clothing, you know. And so I was given a car at 16. So now I've got a way to get around. And so now I've got friends that just wanted a ride that provided alcohol. And so I started now me to survive. And so there was no real living. It was survival. And even I had my high school notebooks because my grades began to plummet. And my dad was telling me how stupid I was. So nobody expected me to apply myself. My notebooks, I doodle that helped me, you know, I wanted somebody to help me. I laugh at my high school counselor, who basically was telling my mom, there was no point in me going to college. I mean, nobody believed in me. I'm still amazed.
[00:11:32]
I graduated from high school, barely. And it truly I'm amazed. I'm sitting here with you, Nate. I truly, and in the back of my mind is like this growing fantasy to become male. It's growing. And how much better would my life be if I was male? This is starting to grow, though, because I read an article in the sports page. And now somebody's saying, what are you going to do after high school, but nobody's giving me any direction. And it's crazy, because I pick a technical school out in Denver, just to get away from home. And because nobody's given me direction. Nobody points me to a community college I didn't even know existed. So I ended up out in Denver, actually dated a guy out in Denver, because he was just safe. He was just happy to have somebody to do something with as well.
[00:12:24]
But I ultimately got expelled because of my attitude. Imagine that those surprise? Yeah, no surprise, exactly. I didn't know how to communicate. And so when the going got tough, a rebellious teenager came out. And so I ended up back with my parents house. And I did end up graduating with an X-ray degree out of it's a hospital based program is what I went to, and then ended up in a small town outside of Des Moines. You know, it's really God's favor that that happened. But at this point in time, my drinking was just so out of hand.
[00:13:00] Dr. Nate Salah
Were you in your 20s? yet? You still a teenager? Yeah, I was 21 at this point. And so just self-medicating with alcohol. Yeah.
[00:13:09] Dee Miller
And I had a wonderful personality that everybody loved. And I worked three to 11 by myself, and everybody's covering for me, and I'm drinking on the job and kind of work was it. I was an x-ray tech, you were tech. Yeah. I mean, it wasn't stupidly drunk on the job. But I knew and I had a conscience. And we worked call because it was a small hospital. And we could drink on the job when we were on call. And so the great thing is, is on a weekend, I got called in and I had some chest pain going on. So they hooked me up to the monitor, just to see what was going on. And my heart had stopped while I was on the monitor.
[00:13:49]
And so they called the doctor in that had come in to see the patient, they had run the tape way we were in there. And he just looked at me and he said, Dee, I don't know what you're doing. And he said, but if you want to get sober and you want to get cleaned up, call my office, I'll get you in. But if you don't, you'll be dead by the time you're 25. Now I'm 22. At this point, here's my goal to be dead by the time I'm 25. And I'm well on the way I don't have to go get a gun, hold it to my head, I'm accomplishing what I've set out to do in life to be dead at 25. And so this is how serious my problem was. I wasn't an alcoholic, but my body is now completely addicted to alcohol, just to numb and get my way through life.
[00:14:35]
Obviously, my heart had stopped back up and we can say, you know, God's like knocking on my door going at it. You can't keep doing us. So I ended up in rehab, obviously, I don't know why I wanted to be dead at 25 It's one of those great mysteries of life. You want to be dead 25 Just keep partying and having a good time and you'll get there. But you ended up in rehab. I ended up in rehab and then for the first time in life For the first time in my adult life, had to face life sober, and see what life was really like,
[00:15:06] Dr. Nate Salah
How did you feel I had to feel you had to feel you hadn't felt in some time I had not as an adult I had not.
[00:15:11] Dee Miller
And it put me in a place of having to cope. And I didn't like it. And it set me up for really having I mean, now you got to understand this desire to be male. It was really growing. And they made me shudder, change shifts at work. Imagine that where I'd be accountable.
[00:15:35] Dr. Nate Salah
As you say that one question comes to mind and maybe your listeners asking the same question. What kind of, as far as you're setting your your influences work? I guess, stoking that flame of the desire to become male? Were there groups or at the time magazines or the internet? No,
[00:15:54] Dee Miller
I mean, you think about this. We're talking early 80s. And I'm in a small town, Iowa. I mean, no internet, no. Organized LGBT at all. I'm not sure if l and G were even organize. Yeah, there was definitely not a t t was the last thing to be added. Because they needed the numbers.
[00:16:20] Dr. Nate Salah
Were you at that time still considered yourself? Heterosexual?
[00:16:25] Dee Miller
Yes, definitely. I was a bigot. My dad was very outspoken, you know, and that's kind of the one of the things I think you inherit when you're raised in that environment. And so I can still remember the first lesbian couple I met, I played softball with them. And I remember even the first black person I met when I was in Denver, thinking, what's my dad's problem? You know, and that was one. I was like, he's an idiot. And so it was after I sobered up that I met this woman, and she would had advances towards me. And I really did not want this. I did not. And it was a difficult, hard time for me in we'll just say that. As she began to care more and more for me, my defenses went down because I'd never had anybody care for me. And I'm not going to make excuses for myself.
[00:17:22]
But if you've ever read the book, The Five Love Languages, minor quality, touch and time. And that's two things My family never gave me. And these are two things this woman gave me. And I remember distinctly, the day this switch flipped is what I say. Because I'd been terribly ill. And she spent the night with me, nothing happened because I was that ill. But I remember the next morning going, what is my problem? Nobody's ever cared for me whether I woke up the next day or not. And then here she is. And I don't understand why I'm fighting this so hard. And I did not tell her that I wanted to be male. I just began to let her pursue me and not fight off her advances. And that was probably about three or four months later, before I told her my secret of wanting to become male. Well, that was an interesting conversation. Because I'm not exactly acting like an adult yet. I mean, like today, you'd be celebrated to tell somebody you wanted to be the other sex back then it wasn't even heard of.
[00:18:32]
So we had gone on a cruise together. And it was on the cruise that I realized how I really felt towards her how I really wanted to be in this relationship. And when we got back from the cruise is one I said, you know, I want to become a man. And if I do this, I want us to be married. In basically, in less than two minutes. I said, I want to be a man, let's get married. And she said, okay, and okay. And then we found a foundation, I found a foundation and wrote off on how to proceed with doing this. And, you know, waiting for snail mail to get back to me on how to do this and was sent a packet of information and with a list of physicians that would help me and that's when we picked up moved down here to St. Louis without verifying any of the information.
[00:19:24]
I mean, that's how young and stupid I was. But again, I think the hand of God came down here to St. Louis in 1986. It was the rules back then where you had to present as two years for two years as what you wanted to become. So being female. I had to live as a man for two years before I'd even get hormones.
[00:19:42] Dr. Nate Salah
So, how is that played out? How do you live like a man being a man?
[00:19:48] Dee Miller
Yeah, I dress like a man and I talk man. He's like, Yeah, is it just that it's just that yeah, so in everyday life, I just began going by JD Miller. You know, put on a suit and tie for Wear working for, you know, tried to do work with a physician to get hormones and the whole operation at that point in time had been shut down because Johns Hopkins had quit doing it. There was a man by the name of Sai Rogers that had taken on the establishment. John Hopkins had done their own research had found out that nobody was getting anything, there was not they were doing these surgeries, and there was no positive outcomes. And so they were like, Yeah, we're not going to do this anymore. And Johns Hopkins never has sons. And so that was the trickle down effect that high get caught in the backwash of that.
[00:20:40]
And so here in the Midwest, that happened now, I know people that were on the coast that still, but for me, I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful. After two years, I still wasn't getting hormones. After three years, I still wasn't getting hormones. For years, I still wasn't getting hormones, but I was living as a man I was. So my girlfriend at this point is like, Yeah, this isn't gonna happen. I'm she moved back to Iowa. But we continued a long distance relationship. And meanwhile, what I didn't mention is she was a church going person in Iowa. In her frustration here. She was like, hey, I want to go back to church. And I'm like, I never stopped you. And if you want, I'll go with you. And she was like, No, I don't want you to go to church with me. And it was on a Sunday that she told me she was moving back to Ohio.
[00:21:30]
So my brilliant mind, I thought, I'll go to church and get her go with me or get her to come back to me. If I go to church that'll restore our relationship. I always think it's interesting how God pursues us and the crazy thoughts that go through our mind. But her God didn't scare me. What's the Scripture? The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Proverbs one seven. Yeah, I had no fear of God, I had no fear of her God. I didn't see an issue with this. And so I went to a co-worker that I knew is a Christian. And she was like, Oh, I'm great. And this Sunday, come to this door. My husband's not sure. I'll take you to the ushers room, he'll take you to our reserved seats. And I always think God has a sense of humor, because I ended up on the front row and service that day.
[00:22:17] Dr. Nate Salah
This is a good turning point for our conversation. You're in the front row. What was your intention?
[00:22:24] Dee Miller
Just to get her back. I didn't see a need for God. I actually never believed he existed because of knowing I had such a terrible childhood, a rough childhood. My thought was if he existed, I would not have had such evil in my life.
[00:22:41] Dr. Nate Salah
Well, what a place to put a pause in this amazing story. It's only going to get even more personal and resonant as D moves into the second part in just one week of how her life changed dramatically after she began the journey toward Jesus. Can't wait for you to listen in. I'm Dr. Nate Salah, and this is A Call to Leadership.