My BarStory - 47 Katrice Williams and Bianca Smith

We were happy to hear from our Young Lawyers Section this week. Katrice Williams and Bianca Smith are living proof that lawyers come from all backgrounds, and some have more life challenges to overcome than others. In this week's My BarStory podcast, they explain why help for students preparing for the Bar exam will make our entire profession stronger.

Transcript

Becky Ruppert McMahon (00:05):
Hi, I am Becky Rupert McMahon, chief Executive at the Cleveland Metropolitan Bar Association. Welcome to another edition of the Cleveland Metropolitan Bar Association's. My bar story. Throughout 2023, the CMBA will be hosting a series of podcasts that have created a living legacy in honor of our 150th anniversary. We'll be bringing you stories from the women and men within our bar membership who have truly made bar history. Now let's get started with another bar story.

Katrice Williams (00:36):
Good morning, I'm Katrice Williams. I'm a Cleveland State University College of Law, graduate of May, 2023. And I want to introduce my colleague here.

Bianca Smith (00:46):
Good morning. My name is Bianca Smith. I am a 2022 graduate of the Cleveland State College of Law, currently working as a litigation associate.

Katrice Williams (00:54):
Awesome. and we're both here to kind of talk about the bar study period, but also the prep to the prep <laugh>. Right?

Bianca Smith (01:02):
Absolutely.

Katrice Williams (01:03):
I know you fairly well, but can you tell our audience who you are, where you come from, just a little bit about yourself?

Bianca Smith (01:10):
Yes. I'm a Cleveland Native College at Eastern Michigan University, master's degree from Tiffin. I am currently working in litigation at a large firm in the area. If I ever have free time I would like

Katrice Williams (01:23):
To

Bianca Smith (01:24):
Continue to pursue my interest in travel. I love music. I'm a huge basketball fan, as most people know. So that's me in a nutshell.

Katrice Williams (01:32):
Awesome. so I'm originally from Durham, North Carolina, or Raleigh Durham area. Went to predominantly black high school before I got a full scholarship to study in Wales. So I left the United States when I was 17. Finished my high school overseas, obviously in the uk then undergrad at Stanford University. Had my daughter my final year, then went to live in Nigeria for her year for where her father's from.

Becky Ruppert McMahon (01:57):
Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>.

Katrice Williams (01:58):
That was interesting. <Laugh>, I, we don't have a whole, whole lot of time to go into that. Right. Then we relocated back to United States when he got his visa first in Athens, Ohio. It's very rural there. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> ou. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And then made my way up here to Cleveland after getting an AmeriCorps vista position with an old non-profit. Did that for a year. Went to graduate school then worked for a little bit, decided I wanted to go to law school when I was working with clients and folks in the community. And they're like, can you help me with X? And I'm like, I'm not an attorney. That's

Bianca Smith (02:33):
Right.

Katrice Williams (02:33):
Instead of me, you know, taking out debt to do law school because I had accumulated a lot from my master's program. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> ended up going to Cleveland State finished debt free. So I'm thankful for that. That's a blessing. I know. Right. and then graduated this past May, but that in and of itself was a process. But I'm hoping you can, like, talk me through what your law school journey was very briefly before we get to Barr. Sure. And just your background as a non-traditional student.

Bianca Smith (03:03):
So as you stated, I am a non-traditional student. I worked in the court system here in Cuyahoga County for about 15 years before going back to law school. Mm-Hmm.

Katrice Williams (03:12):
<Affirmative>. 

Bianca Smith (03:13):
I was a bailiff, a probation officer, a program manager systems coordinator. I did pretty much all things related to the juvenile system and the domestic relations system here in Cuyahoga County. And as you work within the field, you begin to observe kind of the gaps in our, in our system, in our services, particularly for people of color or lower income families. You see how systems interact with each other.

Katrice Williams (03:40):
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.

Bianca Smith (03:41):
And you start to understand and project how you can influence those processes.

Katrice Williams (03:46):
Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>.

Bianca Smith (03:47):
So for me, I went back to school honestly as a bucket list thing. Like I had no desire to ever step back in a classroom. Mm-Hmm.

Katrice Williams (03:54):
<Affirmative>. 

Bianca Smith (03:54):
But I wanted to take the lsat. It was just something I wanted to do. I I did it. It was a struggle of working full-time while preparing for that test and all the other roles that we have as adults. Mm-Hmm.

Katrice Williams (04:07):
<Affirmative>

Bianca Smith (04:08):
Completed that got into law school. The law school journey in and of itself was unlike anything that anyone could describe to you. You literally have to walk the journey yourself. 'cause Everyone's journey is different. For me, law school was what they said it would be in the context of everyone in the room is smart. Mm-Hmm.

Katrice Williams (04:27):
<Affirmative>. 

Bianca Smith (04:27):
So intelligence alone is not enough. You have to have some type of grit, some types of creativity, some type of drive to push you because your intelligence will not sustain you. So I learned that very quickly. I was lucky to encounter some really phenomenal professors at Cleveland State that kind of brought me through. 'cause There's days when it's just hard. Yeah. and so I was lucky to inter interact with those individuals and kind of find my people in the school. Right. So, although I started part-time at Cleveland State, because as I stated, I was working full-time when I started COVID hit and my child had to be homeschooled. Yep.

Katrice Williams (05:06):
And

Bianca Smith (05:06):
So mom had to come home.

Katrice Williams (05:08):
Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>

Bianca Smith (05:09):
<Laugh> <laugh>. So I resigned my position and transitioned to being a full-time student. Took a very heavy caseload my last two years. So I carried about between 16 and 18 credits a semester.

Katrice Williams (05:20):
Yeah.

Bianca Smith (05:21):
Still managed to make Dean's list by the grace of the Lord.

Bianca Smith (05:25):
And graduated within three years. And I'm grateful for it. You know, I think that one thing people don't highlight enough about law school is that it teaches you who you are

Katrice Williams (05:35):
Yeah.

Bianca Smith (05:35):
In a way that a graduate program or undergrad is not going to show you.

Katrice Williams (05:40):
Yep. Yeah. <Laugh> <laugh>. And, and I think, like me, you're also a single parent, right? I am. Correct. Right. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. Right. And I think when I started law school, like you, I think the LSAT was, was hard. 'cause I was working at that time. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, my daughter was five mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> <affirmative> the first time I took it. And it's kind of hard when I'm already tired and, and just, you know. Absolutely. So I ended up taking it a second time. By that time when I did enter into law school, I was divorced. Mm-Hmm.

Bianca Smith (06:09):
<Affirmative>

Katrice Williams (06:09):
You know, I had anticipated that co-parenting was gonna exist. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> it did not. Mm-Hmm. <Laugh>. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So you know, by that time, I, when I entered, I think she was eight mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. So then childcare became an issue. Like, how can I go to class at night or do weekend classes? Correct. And that money was racking up. Mm-Hmm. And then she's a very energetic child, or was still is. Yes. So I'm like looking at the list of babysitters, you know? Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> and, and trying to figure out how this is gonna work. And I was able to piece that together. One of my good friends, she would, you know, when she picked up her daughter from aftercare at their elementary school, she also picked up mine. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>

Bianca Smith (06:49):
And had

Katrice Williams (06:49):
Her two nights a week. Mm-Hmm.

Bianca Smith (06:52):
<Affirmative>. That's huge.

Katrice Williams (06:53):
Yeah. Yeah. And then my other friend who was actually a PhD student when I was a master's student, she said, look, I want you to do well in law school. What nights do you need me to be at your house? Mm-Hmm.

Bianca Smith (07:02):
<Affirmative>. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>.

Katrice Williams (07:02):
And, and she came again. I don't know if I did not have that support system, if I would've Yeah.

Bianca Smith (07:08):
Graduated

Katrice Williams (07:09):
And then eventually when it got to be my final semesters, or it was older, so Right. Childcare wasn't as much of an issue, but then Bar Prep came. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> and I still had this energetic child. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> who really needed my attention. Like you during the pandemic. Yes.

Bianca Smith (07:25):
When

Katrice Williams (07:25):
She transitioned virtually. Mm-Hmm.

Bianca Smith (07:27):
<Affirmative>. I

Katrice Williams (07:27):
Was like, this is a nightmare. Mm-Hmm.

Bianca Smith (07:30):
<Affirmative>.

Katrice Williams (07:30):
So I ended up taking her out of a charter school and putting her in into a private school. Mm-Hmm.

Bianca Smith (07:34):
<Affirmative>.

Katrice Williams (07:34):
But there's still that, those days when they're out of school. But going into the bar prep period, I'm thinking to myself, alright, I love my child. Mm-Hmm.

Bianca Smith (07:42):
<Affirmative>.

Katrice Williams (07:42):
But I cannot study at home because every five minutes she's knocking on my door. Correct. What's for lunch? What's for dinner, mom, I have to go here. And this, and I think I mentioned I graduated in 23, but, and I was really glad that she won like the state competition, but then she won and was going to nationals. Right.

Bianca Smith (08:02):
And

Katrice Williams (08:03):
I was like, how am I gonna get you to DC Mm-Hmm.

Bianca Smith (08:05):
<Affirmative>. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>

Katrice Williams (08:06):
And still study for this test. Yes. And so I'm like waking up at five o'clock in the morning when we're in DC to study, you know, taking her to all the day's activities. She's like, I wanna do other stuff. And I'm like, of course

Bianca Smith (08:18):
You do. <Laugh>. Yeah. <Laugh>. 'cause Mom's studying for the bar, but okay. Yeah.

Katrice Williams (08:23):
And then I did end up sending her to an overnight camp in a different state and she was mad at me about that. Like, she called me every name in the book.

Bianca Smith (08:32):
Oh

Katrice Williams (08:33):
Yeah. But I think that was her feeling as though I was doing that in terms of rejecting her. Mm-Hmm.

Bianca Smith (08:39):
<Affirmative>. But

Katrice Williams (08:39):
That wasn't the case. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. I wanted her to be able to be around peers and to be able to participate in activities. Right. And to have a really great time when I could not have the time to prepare her for

Bianca Smith (08:52):
That. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.

Katrice Williams (08:54):
I don't know if you had the same experience when you were going through Bar Pro.

Bianca Smith (08:58):
Well, I would say, you know, I was blessed during law school to have parents that were retired. So my parents stood in the gap for me and they provided transportation after school. They made sure my son was fed, his homework was done. Because what people don't realize is working part-time, you don't get home until about 9 30, 10 o'clock at night. I'm sorry. Going to school part-time. You don't get home until almost 10 o'clock at night. Right. It's a school night. And ideally your child needs their routine.

Katrice Williams (09:25):
Yeah.

Bianca Smith (09:26):
So, thank goodness I was able to go to school during that sweet spot where I had that village. Because without that village Yeah.

Katrice Williams (09:33):
There

Bianca Smith (09:34):
Would be no law school. There'd be no jd transitioning into Bar Prep. My son was older. He was about 15 and a half 16 when I graduated. However, having worked in the field, you know that you cannot leave a teenager with large amounts of idle time.

Katrice Williams (09:52):
Right.

Bianca Smith (09:52):
And mom studying for eight hours a day is not conducive to a healthy teenager.

Katrice Williams (09:57):
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.

Bianca Smith (09:58):
So my child is an athlete. Everybody knows that, you know, he's a basketball player and AAU is a summer activity that requires extensive travel.

Katrice Williams (10:09):
Yep.

Bianca Smith (10:09):
Extensive finances. And mom was not working. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> because mom was prepping for the bar. So it was something that I had to make a decision, is this gonna be something I pursue for him so that he has his dreams while I'm pursuing mine? Or is this something that we're gonna place on the back burner? Mm-Hmm.

Katrice Williams (10:27):
<Affirmative>. And

Bianca Smith (10:27):
It was a non-negotiable for me. He's so passionate about it. And as a parent, you've gotta dial in when your kid tells you like, this is me, this is what I want to do, this is what I'm interested in.

Katrice Williams (10:37):
Absolutely.

Bianca Smith (10:38):
So we make it happen. 'cause That's what we do. <Laugh>. So, yeah. We traveled every weekend during Bar prep. So as I'm sure we'll get to Bar Prep starts typically immediately after graduation in some cases Right before graduation.

Katrice Williams (10:52):
Right.

Bianca Smith (10:53):
As soon as you complete final exams, some people dive right in. We traveled every single weekend, usually regionally. So some drive, mostly driving, some flying. And so it required some creativity on my part in that I would have Barbie playing through the radio <laugh> while I'm driving six hours to get to a tournament. My basketball family knew I always had my laptop on my lap. I was studying at halftime. I was studying during warmups. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>,

Katrice Williams (11:21):
You know,

Bianca Smith (11:21):
People, you have to communicate to your village and let them know, like, this is where I'm at in my life right now. Right.

Katrice Williams (11:27):
And

Bianca Smith (11:27):
Even though I'm present Mm-Hmm.

Katrice Williams (11:29):
<Affirmative>

Bianca Smith (11:29):
And I'm present when the ball goes in the air, when we on break, I'm studying.

Katrice Williams (11:33):
Right. Like,

Bianca Smith (11:34):
You know, I mean, there were times when I studied in the parking lot Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> of a tournament. Or like you said, I get up at five in the morning and study from five to seven because those hours have to be clocked no matter where you're sitting.

Katrice Williams (11:46):
Absolutely.

Bianca Smith (11:46):
And so it's a creativity and a dedication, which is why I say it creates in you something you don't know that you have.

Katrice Williams (11:52):
Right. Because

Bianca Smith (11:53):
A lot of times in other educational programs, it's kind of given to you. This is your schedule, this is what you do. Right. These are your due dates. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> Bar Prep is very organic. It's very personalized. Right. It's like, how do you learn? When do you have time? Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And are you gonna create the time or not? Right.

Katrice Williams (12:10):
And

Bianca Smith (12:10):
Those who don't create the time regret it. Mm-Hmm. And those that do experience the success and the being emotionally drained from creating that time. <Laugh>.

Katrice Williams (12:20):
Yeah. This is like retraumatization all over

Bianca Smith (12:22):
It. <Laugh>. Oh, it's PTSD for sure.

Katrice Williams (12:24):
Right. but let, let's set this up for the audience. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> first of like, what is bar prep? Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. So I think you kind of alluded to it that, you know, you do your three or four years of law school,

Bianca Smith (12:33):
Correct? Correct.

Katrice Williams (12:34):
And bar prep is, you know, when you graduate from law school, you're a lawyer. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. But you're not an attorney. Correct.

Katrice Williams (12:40):
An attorney. You have to be licensed. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> to get licensed, you have to take this thing called a bar exam. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, I believe in all 50 states in all territories. <Laugh>, without it, you cannot represent clients. You can't do litigation. Correct. Like you mentioned. And so, and you kind of said that, you know, some people start after graduation, I think, I don't know about you. I started after my final exam. 'cause I just knew I needed that extra Yeah. Few weeks to kind of break me into a routine. 'cause I was mentally exhausted from school, but now I know I gotta take these next two months. Right? Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> because you usually, for many states, I think it's the end of July. It's

Bianca Smith (13:15):
Twice a year. Yeah. It's about 12 to 14 weeks.

Katrice Williams (13:17):
Yeah. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> that you have of bar study. Let's break it down. Let's first talk about what you did for bar study. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> how did you prepare financially? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> mentally and emotionally. I know this. And then what was your support system?

Bianca Smith (13:32):
That's such a loaded question.

Katrice Williams (13:34):
I know, I know <laugh>

Bianca Smith (13:36):
So well. Financially, again, being a non-traditional student, often we have responsibilities that our peers don't have.

Katrice Williams (13:44):
Right.

Bianca Smith (13:44):
And I think that you do a disservice if you don't address that. Right? Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. So some of our peers are living with their parents. Their parents have set aside funds for them to prepare for the bar exam. Right.

Katrice Williams (13:55):
And

Bianca Smith (13:56):
That's just not everybody's story. Right. So that was not my story. Although my parents were present, extremely supportive, emotionally and always, I was responsible for my household.

Katrice Williams (14:07):
Right.

Bianca Smith (14:08):
And so those monthly expenses are required, whether you're studying for the bar or whether you have attained your job and you're living your dream, the expenses don't change. Right. I think at the beginning of law school, they tell you to set aside like three months worth of expenses.

Katrice Williams (14:22):
Mm-Hmm.

Bianca Smith (14:23):
Most people are not working at full capacity during law school. Correct. So that's not necessarily a reasonable expectation.

Katrice Williams (14:30):
Mm-Hmm.

Bianca Smith (14:31):
Some people take out loans, some people lean upon, you know, financially capable relatives and friends. Mm-Hmm.

Katrice Williams (14:39):
People

Bianca Smith (14:40):
Run up their credit cards. Yeah. Right. Like, let's just keep it a hundred. Everybody doesn't have access to finances for 90 days of not working.

Katrice Williams (14:49):
Right.

Bianca Smith (14:49):
And then on top of that, in some instances, when you're going into quote unquote big law, you don't start your job until middle of September. So even after the bar, that's six more weeks

Katrice Williams (15:01):
About without income.

Bianca Smith (15:01):
Without income.

Katrice Williams (15:02):
Right.

Bianca Smith (15:03):
<Laugh>. Right.

Katrice Williams (15:03):
So sorry, say that to the audience again. So Right. You're not working. Correct.

Bianca Smith (15:07):
For

Katrice Williams (15:07):
90 days of Bar prep and then six weeks

Bianca Smith (15:10):
After bar prep. Mm-Hmm.

Katrice Williams (15:11):
<Affirmative>. So my math isn't good. Is that four and a half months without income, potentially, that is

Bianca Smith (15:15):
Broke.Com

Katrice Williams (15:17):
<Laugh>. That is. Got it. Got it.

Bianca Smith (15:19):
So at the end of the day, I think that you, you make it happen. You understand that it's an investment in yourself. Mm-Hmm.

Katrice Williams (15:25):
<Affirmative>

Bianca Smith (15:25):
For me, I had a couple of savings accounts that I leaned upon. I had family, like I said Mm-Hmm.

Bianca Smith (15:33):
And we cut corners in my house. Right. So we didn't have cable. We had streaming services. Mm-Hmm. Like, you know, you have wifi as a, you have to make it work because you say to yourself, this is the, this is the impetus of what I did this for. So Right. I'm not going to let it go by the wayside. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, I'm going to make it happen one way or another. Mm-Hmm.

Katrice Williams (15:53):
<Affirmative>.

Bianca Smith (15:53):
And you use that to drive you through the mental and emotional struggles that you're going to experience while you're bar prepping. Right. I used to say to myself, if I'm gonna sacrifice this much

Katrice Williams (16:04):
Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>,

Bianca Smith (16:05):
You know, my son is watching other people go on vacation this summer.

Katrice Williams (16:08):
Right.

Bianca Smith (16:09):
You know, my child wants things that he sees other people doing. And I have to explain to him, thank God he was old enough to understand. Mm-Hmm.

Katrice Williams (16:17):
<Affirmative>

Bianca Smith (16:17):
That we're not doing that this summer. Okay. Like, we, mom is locked in on this. I'm gonna support you through basketball, but that's your fun for this summer. And I think that you have to be very clear and concise in your communication with your village. Mm-Hmm.

Katrice Williams (16:31):
<Affirmative>.

Bianca Smith (16:31):
And you have to give yourself some grace. And that's one thing that I tell my mentees all the time and people that are going through the process that we have gone through. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>

Bianca Smith (16:41):
As a non-traditional student, you juggle so much. Yeah. So much more than people see on the surface. Mm-Hmm.

Katrice Williams (16:47):
<Affirmative>,

Bianca Smith (16:47):
All they see on the surface is the mom who never misses class or the mom that's still on dean's list or has her kid with her in the library or, you know what I mean? Like, they see the outside, but they don't see the journey. They don't see what it took to Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> to get outta bed that morning.

Katrice Williams (17:02):
Right.

Bianca Smith (17:03):
Compared to kind of what your peers may experience. Now, everybody has a story, but I would bargain to say that non-traditional student story is a little more complicated in some instances than our peers. So when you sacrifice the amount that you sacrifice to get through bar prep, you use it as a catalyst on the days when you're like, I don't wanna do this.

Katrice Williams (17:23):
Right.

Bianca Smith (17:24):
And those days will come. And so I tell people like, you're gonna juggle. When you juggle, sometimes a ball is gonna drop.

Katrice Williams (17:31):
Mm.

Bianca Smith (17:31):
Okay. And sometimes that ball is, I can't make it to my kids' event because I've got to get through these four essays today.

Katrice Williams (17:38):
Right.

Bianca Smith (17:39):
Or these four essays have to wait

Katrice Williams (17:41):
Because

Bianca Smith (17:42):
I have to go to my kids' event, or my elderly relative needs me to take them to an appointment. Or I haven't cooked for my family in weeks. Right.

Katrice Williams (17:51):
Like,

Bianca Smith (17:52):
<Laugh>, I should probably make a meal today.

Katrice Williams (17:54):
Right.

Bianca Smith (17:55):
And so you juggle, but you give yourself grace that when a ball drops, you'll be okay.

Katrice Williams (18:00):
Mm-Hmm.

Bianca Smith (18:00):
And that you'll recover and the next day you'll try it again.

Katrice Williams (18:03):
Yeah. I think for me, my journey was a little bit harder. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So in the fall of 22, I thought, what I had a, I thought what I had was a sprained ankle.

Bianca Smith (18:15):
I remember that. Yeah.

Katrice Williams (18:16):
Yeah. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And it would get better and then it would get worse. And I'm like, what am I doing? Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. So I tried different shoes and then it went from my left ankle to my right ankle. And then I'm like, well, maybe I'm putting too much weight on my right ankle. And then it made a weight to my hands such that I couldn't open a jar. I couldn't write, I couldn't type. Everything was just painful. And, you know, I went to all these doctor's appointments, I'm like, something's not right. And then finally when it went to my right hand where my hand was shaking, I was in pain.

Bianca Smith (18:49):
Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>,

Katrice Williams (18:49):
My doctor said, I think you have rheumatoid arthritis. And I'm like, and I'm looking at, I'm Googling. Right. Right. And I'm like,

Bianca Smith (18:55):
Usually

Katrice Williams (18:56):
Does, doesn't show up until you're 60 or 65. Like, what is it have, what have I done Right. To be sick?

Bianca Smith (19:02):
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.

Katrice Williams (19:03):
And I remember my final semester, you know, looking at, you know, writing my professors like, look, I just now have this diagnosis. I'm gonna miss classes 'cause I'm in too much pain.

Bianca Smith (19:13):
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.

Katrice Williams (19:14):
And, and then I have people coming up to me like, Hey, you wanna come? I'm like, look, today I just have to be in bed. Like, I literally have to be in bed. My feet have to be in a bucket of ice.

Bianca Smith (19:24):
That's right. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.

Katrice Williams (19:25):
You know, can you walk slower? Is there an elevator? Mm-Hmm.

Bianca Smith (19:29):
<Affirmative>

Katrice Williams (19:30):
You know, explaining to people that knew me when I started out in this program or who have known me the past several years, and they're like, oh, you should try turmeric. Or Oh, you should stop eating meat. Or Oh, you should do all these other things. Yes. And I'm like, y'all, I've done everything in the book. <Laugh>. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.

Bianca Smith (19:48):
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.

Katrice Williams (19:48):
Some days when you see me, I'm doing really well. 'cause The medication is working. Mm-Hmm.

Bianca Smith (19:52):
<Affirmative>,

Katrice Williams (19:52):
Other days when you see me, I'm doing terribly. And that, and just getting up in the morning, it takes me about two hours longer than other people. 'cause I have to a, prepare my mind. That's right. Set my feet on the floor and step into pain. And then I still have to get ready. I still have to get my daughter ready. Mm-Hmm.

Bianca Smith (20:08):
<Affirmative>.

Katrice Williams (20:08):
And she doesn't wanna walk to school. So now I gotta like shuffle my way to the car. <Laugh>. Right, right. And I'm dealing with this pre-teen attitude. So I like, I have a lot of Mm-Hmm. Just my morning is like mental preparation. And so then when you have to, and I also don't have family here in Ohio. I have no one, it's just me and my daughter having to do that, going into bar prep. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And so, you know, I was dealing with this disease, my daughter didn't know how to absorb it. Right. All she can see is, well, I can't go to Cedar Point Yeah. Because my mom can't walk. Right. And that's unfair to me. Mm-Hmm.

Bianca Smith (20:42):
<Affirmative>

Katrice Williams (20:43):
Or I can't go to my friend's house because my mom is in too much pain to drive today. And that's unfair. And I remember one of the things that she said to me when we were in DC and she got in this national competition is I don't want your illness to regulate my life.

Bianca Smith (20:58):
Wow.

Katrice Williams (20:59):
Yeah. And again, I know this is not, she wasn't intending to say that to hurt me. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. But it, it's, again, it's a child who, whose life has been adjusted because she's seen her mom do everything under the sun. Mm-Hmm.

Bianca Smith (21:12):
And

Katrice Williams (21:12):
Now we have to change how we live together. Right. 'cause Right. 'cause my disease doesn't just affect me. Mm-Hmm. It affects what I'm able to do with and for her. Mm-Hmm.

Katrice Williams (21:22):
And so, going into bar prep, like you, I had to financially prepare, but I also had to add on the expenses of my medical expenses, my doctor's appointments, my medications. Right. you know, and I made the decision early in the year that I was gonna send her to an overnight camp. And so luckily she got a scholarship, but between all the expenses together, it still costs about $5,000. Oh sure. Oh sure. 'cause People don't tell you, people alluded like, oh, sending your kids to camp is expensive. But I'm like, oh, we'll be fine. And then you realize they grow. Yes. And the clothes don't fit. That's right. And

Bianca Smith (21:52):
You dare not say no.

Katrice Williams (21:53):
Right. <laugh> Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. Mm-Hmm.

Bianca Smith (21:55):
<Affirmative>. But

Katrice Williams (21:55):
She didn't leave for camp until the end of June. So there was that whole, you know, month following graduation that we're just kind of having to, to make things work. Right. And I think the thing that got me, so that's, you know, financially as you said, you, you know, you have to prepare. I was still working that first month. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. 'cause Again, I had this new illness, I didn't know what my medical expenses were gonna look like. Right. And I needed to maintain my health

Bianca Smith (22:15):
Insurance. Yeah.

Katrice Williams (22:17):
<Laugh>. Yeah. Because

Bianca Smith (22:18):
That's the other thing they don't mention is that you're not insured

Katrice Williams (22:21):
Yeah.

Bianca Smith (22:21):
During these 120 days plus.

Katrice Williams (22:24):
Right.

Bianca Smith (22:25):
So you have to prepare also for any medical and things that may come up during that window.

Katrice Williams (22:31):
Right.

Bianca Smith (22:31):
I think we talk about the mental and emotional toll. Right.

Katrice Williams (22:35):
Part

Bianca Smith (22:35):
Of that toll comes from people not discussing the fact that the bar exam is nothing like law school.

Katrice Williams (22:42):
Right.

Bianca Smith (22:43):
So just because you made it through law school and you did well Mm-Hmm.

Katrice Williams (22:46):
<Affirmative>

Bianca Smith (22:46):
Does not mean you'll do well on the bar exam. Yeah. It's a different type of preparation. Yeah. It's a different type of emotional tenacity and mental toughness. Right. and flat out endurance. Right. Just flat out endurance because a law school exam is not the same as a bar essay.

Katrice Williams (23:01):
Right.

Bianca Smith (23:02):
It is not the same <laugh>. And if you attack them the same way, you will not be successful. Yeah. And I think that that's one thing that we can do as a, as a law community in preparing our students for that transition period. Because everyone says, just graduate, just get there. Mm-Hmm. Okay. But there's another hurdle right after graduation that people don't necessarily illuminate. Right. Like, we have to talk about the study habits and the work ethic that is required after graduation. Yeah.

Katrice Williams (23:31):
So let's spend the last few minutes talking about what students need. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And then maybe what we can do as a law community to help, especially non-traditional students. And I'm even gonna throw out there like black women Right. <Laugh> to help them get through that period. So for you, and, and I hope you don't mind me saying this, it took you a couple of tries, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. But what was it that you needed right. To get you through that period?

Bianca Smith (23:56):
This is gonna sound very cliche, but for me, internal messaging is vital.

Katrice Williams (24:01):
Right? Because

Bianca Smith (24:02):
Imposter syndrome is real. Mental health is something that I saw a lot of my peers struggling with during Bar prep. One thing that I remember, one of my favorite people at Cleveland State said to me, like our first week is that whatever you have going on internally will come out and it will be monstrous during law school. And if you don't address it, it will take you under. And I think that people underestimate the stress, what stress does to your mind, what it does to your emotional wellness. And so for me, I always talk about, you know, what are you telling yourself? And so I was big on motivational speeches and YouTube videos and books and, you know, listening to music in the car wasn't enough anymore because it didn't silence all of the talk in your mind. Right. Like, you're constantly thinking barber like all the time <laugh>. So, so for me it was about, you know, what am I putting in my brain first thing in the morning that's going to give me the strength to get through this day? Yeah.

Bianca Smith (25:04):
So for me, I love Eric Thomas. People that know me, know I listen to him constantly. I read his books. And so I would start every day with some type of motivational speech. Right. Like, get up and get it. You owe yourself. You won't outwork me. Like those types of things that you tell yourself. 'cause You don't know what the day is gonna bring and you need to frame it before you put your feet on the floor, as you said. Mm-Hmm.

Katrice Williams (25:27):
<Affirmative>.

Bianca Smith (25:27):
So that worked for me. I did yoga. I did, which I'm not a yoga person. Right. <laugh>, like, that's not me. Right.

Bianca Smith (25:33):
But I also had tough conversations with my family members. You know, I cannot answer the phone all day long, so stop calling me.

Katrice Williams (25:41):
Mm-Hmm.

Bianca Smith (25:41):
Like, I cannot show up at every event.

Katrice Williams (25:43):
Mm-Hmm.

Bianca Smith (25:44):
I cannot be all things for all people during this 120 days. This during this time. This is about me. And that's uncomfortable for people because they're used to you always being there. And you always answering and you always showing up and you being the voice of reason and all. And you have to create those boundaries for yourself. If you're gonna be successful, I have to step back right now, I'll be back. I still love y'all, but I ain't gonna make it

Katrice Williams (26:10):
<Laugh>. Right.

Bianca Smith (26:11):
Like, you know, creating that and getting your family's buy-in or your support systems', buy-in is essential.

Katrice Williams (26:19):
Yeah.

Bianca Smith (26:19):
To your success in my opinion. So I would say you know, positive messages, find a way to physically move your body because the endorphins that are released, the dopamine, it's, there's nothing that can replace it. And create healthy boundaries with your village.

Katrice Williams (26:35):
Absolutely. I quickly wanna give a shout out to Cleveland State. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, because A, they made our bar prep course free.

Bianca Smith (26:41):
Yes. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>

Katrice Williams (26:42):
Which was like 2000, $2,500 savings. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And then I think this time around they also had the Adapta bar questions on the tablet. I wish I had done that earlier. Nice. Yeah. In the, instead of like, oh, we now have this, and I'm like, going a week before the test and you know, and if you were a student facing financial distress, you, you know, there was not a whole lot of money, but there was some scholarship money. Yes. You know, maybe to help you cover a utility bills

Bianca Smith (27:06):
Or any emergency expense, which is huge.

Katrice Williams (27:08):
Right. Right. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, like you said, they took it from the Cares Act. Correct. and then it had just continued it. So that has been supportive. But I think you're right. Letting your support system know. And so for me that was like daily conversations with my daughter to say, look, I love you. Mm-Hmm.

Bianca Smith (27:24):
<Affirmative>, my

Katrice Williams (27:25):
Lack of attention is not my lack of love.

Bianca Smith (27:27):
Absolutely.

Katrice Williams (27:28):
And and you have been with me on this journey, not just through law school, but through graduate school. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, you have been with me. Mm-Hmm.

Bianca Smith (27:34):
<Affirmative>. And

Katrice Williams (27:35):
I am making these sacrifices because a, I wanna pursue my dream while encouraging you to pursue yours later in life. That's

Bianca Smith (27:41):
Right. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.

Katrice Williams (27:41):
And also maintaining a standard of living. So I'm not sacrificing your wellbeing for my pursuit. Correct. Like, I'm always gonna make sure you have a house, a roof of your head food on the table. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> closing your back. It may not be the nicest looking shoes, but their shoes. Their shoes. Yeah. And thank

Bianca Smith (27:56):
God for DoorDash

Katrice Williams (27:58):
<Laugh>, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Oh Lord. Yes. I think you said you had a support system where Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> people would check in and I had a few friends. Mm-Hmm.

Bianca Smith (28:06):
<Affirmative>

Katrice Williams (28:06):
Including yourself, who would call me like Katrice. We saw that Facebook post. Are you okay? Right,

Bianca Smith (28:11):
Right,

Katrice Williams (28:12):
Right. Or you know, I had a friend, she sent me $50 via cash app and said, look, you know, go get a massage or eat out tonight. Yes. You don't have to cook. You know, I had to also thank my daughter for eating spaghetti for like five nights in a row. That's right. With different sauces, <laugh>. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. But I think as a law community, thank goodness we now have this LSAT prep fund. Yes. But, but post that period, we can also do education about setting aside expenses for the bar prep period. Right. These are the things that you can expect to come up during this process. Mm-Hmm.

Bianca Smith (28:42):
<Affirmative>

Katrice Williams (28:42):
Start preparing early about how to write bar essays. Yes. Right. 'cause They're very different. Very if you struggle with essay writing, it's okay to ask for help.

Bianca Smith (28:52):
Yes.

Katrice Williams (28:52):
It's okay to ask other attorneys to look at your essays.

Bianca Smith (28:55):
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>

Katrice Williams (28:56):
And to critique it. Don't get mad about the critique. Yes. They're just trying to help you get to where you wanna be. Absolutely. and and I think also when you go through that mental or emotional exhaustion, like you said, take a break.

Bianca Smith (29:09):
Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. I think you and I talked about the importance of walking away from it. Right, right. Like sometimes you have to put it down. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> whether because life is

Katrice Williams (29:19):
Lifeing

Bianca Smith (29:19):
Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> or because you're just not in a space to retrieve and absorb information. Right. and you do yourself a disservice by sitting there banging your head against the desk when you're not in a position to learn. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And even if that means taking a 15 minute walk or, you know, putting it down for an hour and going to sleep. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> if you're gonna be more fruitful when you return to it, then that's what you need to do. Right. And that's why I say like, grace is vital because when you're on your own back Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> you can't, like, it's just not productive, you know? Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> like you have to be your own safe place and soft place to land. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> like, Hey, it's Tuesday, I don't wanna do this today. Yeah.

Katrice Williams (29:57):
Like, I

Bianca Smith (29:57):
Just don't want to, so I'm gonna do an hour right now and then I'm gonna go outside, like, and maybe I'll study outside for an hour or maybe I'll Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, you know, but giving yourself space and opportunity to do what meets your needs because you can't expect others to do it if you don't recognize it and do it for yourself.

Katrice Williams (30:13):
Right. Right. So kind of the close us out to the audience to I think the four takeaways are you know, really providing that financial assistance Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> especially to non-traditional students who may not have relatives or spouses that can support them through that process. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> the emotional, mental support. So maybe matching people up with mentors. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> may not, especially if they don't have family <affirmative> locally emotionally if you see someone struggling, reach out to them. Absolutely. Again, it doesn't take a whole lot of time. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, it can be a text message, a call, a coffee. And then finally just encouraging folks to step back. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and, and providing pathways, again, a $25 gift card. It goes a long way. It does,

Bianca Smith (30:55):
It really, does it cover, it can

Katrice Williams (30:56):
Cover a couple of yoga classes Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> or coffee, whatever it may be. And, and I think that will help diversify our profession Absolutely. Because we'll get people through that period.

Bianca Smith (31:04):
Absolutely.

Katrice Williams (31:05):
I think it's important

Bianca Smith (31:05):
To know that although people make it look good on social media, right. Like that's not accurate. Right.

Katrice Williams (31:12):
Bar

Bianca Smith (31:12):
Prep is tough. It is one of the toughest things you will endure in your professional career. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And so you don't underestimate that it will punk you.

Katrice Williams (31:23):
Yeah.

Bianca Smith (31:24):
So like, don't, you know, recognize that walking in that there's gonna be days where you're like, yeah, I'm not winning this today. Yeah.

Katrice Williams (31:29):
Like, this

Bianca Smith (31:29):
Is not, this is not that. And so no matter what you see, just know everyone has had their own story. Everyone has had their own struggle and every attorney you see has come out on the other side. Yeah. So if they did it, why won't you do it? Like Mm-Hmm. There's so many people, especially in our community, I talk all the time about we're not doing this just for us. Mm-Hmm.

Becky Ruppert McMahon (31:50):
Like,

Bianca Smith (31:50):
There's so many people watching and waiting from our children to our friends, to our community, like watching and waiting for us to succeed. Yeah. So it's not just about you. There's people that are requiring you to make it happen. Mm-Hmm. And do what needs to be done to get there. And just know at some point you're coming out on the other side. Right. Eventually.

Katrice Williams (32:11):
Okay. <Laugh>. Absolutely. All right. Thank you everyone for joining us. Yes.

Bianca Smith (32:14):
Thank you.

Becky Ruppert McMahon (32:15):
Thank you for joining us for today's my Bar story. To hear other bar stories or to check out any of the CBAs other podcasts, please go to Spotify, apple, or wherever you get your favorite podcasts. You can also go to our website@cmetrobar.org slash podcast. We hope you listen again soon.