My BarStory S02E07 - Andrew November and Dr. Andrew Goldberg

CMBA's My BarStory podcast is back with a new episode, and it deals with a critical topic. Mental health concerns are always high on the list for lawyers, with stress and substance abuse being two of the biggest traps in this profession.

Join Liner Legal Attorney Andrew November for a story of overcoming mental and personal challenges to build a successful career. He's joined by his long-time friend, psychologist Andrew Goldberg.

For those who want to join Dr. Goldberg in his mindfullness practice, he offers free community workshops every Sunday at 9:30am and 11am at Larder Delicatessen in Tremont. You can learn more by contacting Andrew at andyg@321thismoment.com

Transcript

Becky Ruppert McMahon (00:05):
Hello, I'm Becky Rupert McMahon, CEO of the Cleveland Metropolitan Bar Association. Welcome to a new season of my Bar Story podcast. We began this project to create an oral history of the bar for our 150th birthday in 2023. The response has been tremendous. We've got many more great bar stories to share this year and beyond. So let's get started with another my bar story.

Andrew November (00:31):
My name is Andrew November. I'm a disability attorney. I work at Liner Legal. I've been a disability attorney since 2 0 0 9. It's the only area of law I've ever practiced, and probably the only area of law I will practice. I'm honored to be here to talk about mental health. I'm particularly honored because my long, long time friend Andrew Goldberg is sitting across from me. Andrew is a clinical psychologist, and we're going to give a great conversation today about mental health in the legal profession. So why don't I allow Andrew to introduce himself?

Andrew Goldberg (01:09):
Yes. hi, I'm Andrew Goldberg, and as Andrew November said, I am a clinical psychologist here in Cleveland area, and we have been longtime friends. We are now known as Andrew Square. We used to be Andrew Cubed back in our undergraduate days at Cincinnati. But our friend Andrew, the third one in our trio unfortunately passed away for some mental emotional complications and could talk about that some other time. But, you know, we went through some stuff together.

Speaker 2 (01:35):
This podcast has been in the works for probably about a year now as Andrew. The other Andrew you know, led into it was Andrew Cubed at one point. I, I, I think us Andrews have shared quite a lot of mental health struggles as younger individuals and to find our way back to each other, you know, now me, 15 years into practice and you just as many years into your own practice is nothing short of remarkable. I am so pleased to know that the incoming president Matt Besser, will be focusing on mental health this year because for too long it's been certainly a topic never talked about in the, the legal profession, but let alone in just the civilian population, mental health wasn't something to discuss. And now that we have a president and we have a bar association, the largest bar association in the state that's going to make its mission to focus on mental health and to invite us on here to talk about this topic is remarkable. And, you know, you talk about the world's colliding running into you on the sidewalk in Tremont last June, just after I had started my journey into mental health treatment and exploring it and talking about it is really, it's really amazing.

Andrew Goldberg (02:50):
Yeah. I I, I've, I've heard from the past that lawyers have a somewhat stressful job. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:56):
Sometimes sometimes it can be stressful. What have you heard? Right.

Andrew Goldberg (02:59):
Right. Yeah. so like, I was actually reading an article in Forbes and they were saying that like, lawyers handle the toughest issues businesses and societies face. And like, they were also saying like, well, there's a lot of satisfaction to be gained by the practice of law. Like, you guys deal with long work hours. I heard it's pretty typical to work 60, 80 hours is the expectation of us constantly having to be on.

Speaker 2 (03:23):
Yeah. You know, it's interesting. It, it, it's almost like where do we start, you know, where is the, where is the stress born? And I, I'm sure every lawyer has a, a different level of stress, but, you know, I'm here to talk about mine. And, you know, my bar story as I said, I've been a disability attorney since passing the bar in 2 0 0 9. I represent people who come to me at the most vulnerable time of their life. They're unable to work, they're unable to pay their bills because they can't work. If you are calling my office or coming to see me. Someone has told you no. And that is by far the most difficult because it's never a great conversation. Even when I do win someone's case, after years of fighting, you're tempted to say, congratulations. But what am I congratulating someone on, congratulating them that they have a disability and can't work and beat the system. A system that we can all agree, or most plaintiff lawyers will agree is rigged against our clients. It, it's uncomfortable to say congratulations. It's, I I, I, I have a little joke I say to my clients, I say, I hope to never hear from you again. And because if I don't hear from you, that means things are going okay. And that's what I like to say. Instead of saying congratulations. But yes, I mean, when they call lawyers, counselors, you know, you do feel like a counselor sometime. My,

Andrew Goldberg (04:45):
You guys are more therapists than we are. I

Speaker 2 (04:47):
Sometimes we are. I mean, trying to explain to someone, you know, the hardest question I always get is, what am I supposed to do? You know, someone comes in my office, they've been turned down by Social Security, or they've been turned down by an insurance company, and they, they look at me and say, what am I supposed to do? Well, in 15 years, I still don't have an answer for that. And I know I'm gonna go home to my wife, my house. That's, you know, being paid for that. I have a check coming in. And to know that my client might be on someone's couch, maybe even worse, they're in their car. I mean, it's tremendously difficult to leave that. And that's just one aspect of what you mentioned. We haven't even talked about the hours yet. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, we haven't talked about the system that we're up against, whether it's judges, lawyers, clients, family members, we have to deal with. You don't leave the office with a smile on your face on most days.

Andrew Goldberg (05:41):
Right. Sometimes it sounds like it's a thankless profession.

Speaker 2 (05:45):
It it can be. Yeah. I mean, literally it is, is thankless a lot of times, you know, and I don't expect a thank you from my clients necessarily. Oftentimes they are getting the benefits they deserve, and they're just so beaten down by the system.

Andrew Goldberg (06:00):
Right. It's hard to watch.

Speaker 2 (06:02):
It is hard

Andrew Goldberg (06:02):
To watch and must feel powerless at times knowing, like, while they're trying to navigate the complexity of the system, what can I do? And seeing the limitations on what you can actually do for somebody sometimes it's gotta be stressful, to say the least.

Speaker 2 (06:15):
Yeah. And I am so thrilled with the particular job I have. I am a partner at Liner Legal. My partner Michael Liner, just like me, has been dedicated to this line of work since he, he, he graduated law school in 2010, just one year younger than me. And together, you know, I I I, I, I'm still used to saying in their thirties, but I just turned 40. I would always say we're we're leaders as partners in our thirties with the fastest growing disability practice. Yeah.

Andrew Goldberg (06:45):
But forties is a new thirties, so That's

Speaker 2 (06:46):
Right. It is. And I'm just over 40. What we've done is we've tried to make it a little bit easier for our clients, because as any litigator will know, is there's just so many periods of quiet time. You know, you file your application, it will be months before you hear something. So what we try to do for our clients is communicate with them electronically. We have very advanced platforms where we can kind of keep our clients appraised to the situation using text messaging portals that they can enter to communicate with us. And we even have, you know, a client concierge named Jordan who will reach out to our clients and help them with their utility bills, help them find you know, food supplements. Maybe it's a food pantry, or getting them connected with the Department of Jobs and Family Services. But still, I don't know what to tell 'em to say, I can't put money in your pocket. I know that they're going to bed without having a stream of income every night.

Andrew Goldberg (07:41):
Yeah. It sounds like you guys are doing a lot of wonderful things for clients. How did you get there? How'd you get to be in this practice given the title of this podcast? What was it like taking the bar?

Speaker 2 (07:52):
Talking about my bar story? I, I think it has to go back to probably even before college. I am a first generation lawyer. I did not know any lawyers growing up. I was never the type of child that thought, I'm going to be a lawyer. Trust me, I, I don't think I was thinking about my future. Suffice to say, and I think Andrew will agree with me, I, we had difficult childhoods. I, I I in the sense that I don't think we fit into the education system. Yeah.

Andrew Goldberg (08:21):
We were those A DHD kids,

Speaker 2 (08:23):
We were those A DHD kids. And, you know, like we were talking about before, they didn't know what to do with us. We were the disruption to the class. I don't know how many times I saw on my report card, socialize is too much during class. It was like the auto comment,

Andrew Goldberg (08:36):
Right. Socialize,

Speaker 2 (08:37):
Which is a, it's a badge of honor now, and we can talk about why that's such a good thing now. But, well, it's funny

Andrew Goldberg (08:42):
To look back on it because, you know, we've, we've both turned our lives around and are able and have fairly successful careers, but, yeah.

Speaker 2 (08:50):
Well, I wanna say I owe everything to the University of Cincinnati, and I'm interested to see how you're gonna reflect back on uc. So I graduated in 2002 from Orange High School with, I don't even know what my GPA is. Maybe it's somewhere in the middle of the twos.

Andrew Goldberg (09:04):
Well, we went to high school. It didn't matter what GPA we had, we were graduating anyways.

Speaker 2 (09:07):
We were graduating, and I'm sure my parents had a lot to do with that.

Andrew Goldberg (09:11):
That was nature of the beast. It

Speaker 2 (09:13):
Was, you know, we went to wealthy schools with parents that were very active. And, you know, I don't take that for granted that I have that background. I had parents who could make sure I didn't fall too far off the grid. And I always keep that in mind when I deal with my clients, because I know that I had a lot of chances, second chances, 13th chances to get it right. But why I say I owe it to Cincinnati is because in 2002, and I think you were admitted the same way that had open admissions,

Andrew Goldberg (09:41):
Right? Yeah. Like, I graduated with a one six GPA, it's it's, it was from Beachwood. Yeah. From Beachwood. So it was cool to be able to get into somewhere.

Speaker 2 (09:48):
Uc admitted us and they put us into the associate program, which was really brilliant because nobody knew you were in the associate program except you. You got to be in the dorm with everyone else. You went to the same classes as everyone else. All you had to do was do well through the two years and you would just automatically matriculate into the four year program. It was really genius. And I'm sad that it doesn't exist anymore because

Andrew Goldberg (10:14):
I didn't even know it existed when we went there. But anyways, you were saying

Speaker 2 (10:16):
I I was very aware of it. My parents made clear that that was the only reason I was in college. My first year didn't go well. We talked about Andrew Cubed, you know, those were the dark days in Cincinnati, I think, I think in the school itself, in the dorm. I mean, it was, it was outta control. And I found myself floundering through the first year. I met a counselor towards the very end of my first year. And I asked him what I, I didn't have a major. I said, what is the major that does not have a foreign language and does not have math? That's how I was looking at my education at the end of my first year.

Andrew Goldberg (10:51):
So, and why were you looking at your education in that way? Like, what was it about the academic environment that was so how can I just get through this easy path?

Speaker 2 (11:00):
I never had an education. I never had a teacher. I had one teacher that I think ever really cared about me. Mr. Campbell, who was a wood shop teacher in Orange High School. I,

Andrew Goldberg (11:11):
What was it like to, like, for me, going through school, it was like trying to talk, put my hand like in a hot stove. You know, it's like, as much as I wanted to be in a classroom, or at least to learn to certain degree, like, it was just so uncomfortable for me to be in there that I ran and buried myself in. Well, what Andrew and I were doing, like a bunch of drugs. Yeah. And just anything that I can do to find some sort of comfort inside.

Speaker 2 (11:36):
It's changed now, and thank goodness. But the education system, then, it was one style, it was lecture. You sat there and you had to listen. And having not optimally treated a DHD and, and an interest in socialization, it wasn't, I did not have that core education. So when I got to my first year and I'm taking just general classes, you know, English history, philosophy, it just didn't click with me. And so I, I met this counselor, his name's Alan spi, who fun fact is now a practicing lawyer himself, but he was a counselor at uc then. And Alan told me the one major was criminal justice. And I said, huh, you know, criminal justice didn't have the best reputation that you see. At the time. It was the, it was the major that all the athletes went into. It was the easy major. I will never forget, though, as soon as I got into my first class, I wish I could remember what that first class was.

Speaker 2 (12:31):
It just clicked. Like something had just dramatically changed in my life. And I just got it. Something about the law and the way that you would analyze the law as lawyers, we talk about the Socratic method, and that's where the teacher would ask you questions. You know, you would be assigned a case to read. We were reading cases in my undergraduate classes. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And they would assign you a case, and you were just there to explain, you know, what you learned. What was the issue in the case, what was the, the law, the rule, how did you analyze the issue against it? And I was good at it, frankly. I was just good at it. And it was the first time in my life that I was the good student. Huh. I rose to be the best student in the class. I made Dean's list.

Speaker 2 (13:10):
We were on quarters back then. I dunno if you remember that. Yeah. There's lott schools that weren't on semesters. We were on quarters. I made Dean's list every single quarter my three years after that. And I founded the Criminal Justice Honors Society in that. So I went from being the bad kid to being the star, you know, to, it was, it was remarkable. And I had a, a bit of a setback, you know, some would say, because I didn't have that educational background, I did really poorly on the lsat. So the LSAT is an admissions test that every lawyer has to take to get into law school. And it's, it's, it's a standardized test. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And, I mean, my SATI can't even remember the score, but <laugh> not great.

Andrew Goldberg (13:51):
So you were engaged in the material, you got into criminal justice, it felt great. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you know, from where before I, I would surmise that sitting in an English class, although I'm sure Macbeth is very interesting, and the way it was taught just didn't align. Yeah. You know, and then doing the criminal justice stuff, you know, you're smiling as you're talking about it. You're, you're getting more like boisterous, like, oh my, this is just amazing to be a part of this yet because of your lack of education and like, you know, grammar and taking tests and stuff like that. When it came to the l stat where you excelled in, you know, were you talking about like criminal justice kind of fell flat?

Speaker 2 (14:28):
Yeah. I mean, I think I, I'd have to check, but I think I had a 3.4, I mean a very high GPA coming out of uc. But my LSAT was in the one forties, which is Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> lower. I didn't even apply to Case Western. I got rejected from Cleveland State. The only school that took me in was Detroit Mercy. And I went, was that stressful? What's that?

Andrew Goldberg (14:48):
Was that stressful?

Speaker 2 (14:49):
It was very stressful because my parents weren't very supportive. I mean, they had seen, you know, that I've really turned my life around in college. I mean, I think they were very impressed, but still, I mean, having spent the first 18 years of me as a, you know, a screw up, I was gonna say another word, but I'm not sure. The editing here you know, I don't think they were, they creep it out. They, they weren't, they weren't sold on, on my success. And, you know, they wouldn't pay for my law school. They wouldn't help me. I had to, you know, pay for it. It's a private school. It was incredibly expensive. And I didn't even think about it like that back then. I was like, I'm going to law school. I'm gonna do it. And I did it.

Andrew Goldberg (15:26):
Yeah. You had some, you had something to prove. Yeah. What was it like not having the support? Like you were turning yourself around, but the people around you were like, we don't know about this Andrew.

Speaker 2 (15:37):
I think you develop a survival instinct. And I think that's something I still deal with in therapy now. It's, you know, the popular term now is imposter syndrome, or just not feeling good enough, not having that self-esteem. I mean, when you're told you're the bad kid Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, you know, for 18 years, and then you have this remarkable turnaround and become the the teacher's pet and

Andrew Goldberg (15:59):
Right. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (15:59):
Your, your mind. It just, and here I am so many years later, 40 years old, and it's still a daily struggle. So yeah. I mean, I had to finance my law school, and there was no help with doing that. Nobody looked over, I mean, I just took as much money as I could get and paid the price.

Andrew Goldberg (16:15):
You sound de you sounded like you were determined, but were you scared?

Speaker 2 (16:19):
No, I, I don't think I was scared. No. I, I, I think my, my strongest quality is having that survival instinct. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And I knew I was good at the law, and I knew I was gonna go into law school and get a job. I was always good at the non-school things. I worked throughout high school. I had so many different jobs and I excelled at all the jobs. I think there's so much more than education that makes a good professional.

Andrew Goldberg (16:45):
Right. But we still have to go through this education in order to get there. Yeah. You know, like I struggled going through my own like master's and doctorate program and just the long, long hours of just studying. Like, I felt like I had to study twice, three times as long or even more than the typical student, because my reading comprehension, I'd read a page, have no idea what I just read, and have to read it again. And so there's still this gatekeeper Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> to get through. So how did you manage to do that and get to where you are today?

Speaker 2 (17:16):
I think I was on such a high during those years that I was the, the good, I was the best student. I mean, my first year of law school, I mean, I excelled so much that I got admitted to Case Western as a transfer student in a matter of days. You know, I don't remember my GPA for my first year, but high enough that case said welcome. And so, yeah, I short cutting the story here, but I did, I transferred the case and that's where I graduated from the law. As I said, it came naturally to me. One of my, I remember this quote that I heard from a bar prep course. And he was talking about, oh, you have to worry about the multiple choice. That's what's difficult. You know, that's more of your standard test format. But he said, I think the quote was, if you can't your way through a blue book, you don't deserve to be a lawyer.

Speaker 2 (18:01):
Really? And, and that, that sticks with me because the law is, it's making an argument, which I was always good at. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. It's taking a set of facts, understanding a rule, which is very easy to find. And making your analysis, making your argument, having the passion to do that. And I did that. Well, that's all law school was. You know, you would be given a set of facts and you were taught the law and you were asked to make an analysis. I didn't find that hard. I didn't find the bar exam very difficult because I prepared for it. I spent months and months studying for every exam I had to take because I liked the material. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. I liked how it was being taught and I know I could go in there and kill it.

Andrew Goldberg (18:41):
It sounds like, you know, you were fire on all CELs and things went really well, and you were just getting thing, getting the, the work done. It came a lot easier to you. You're happy to be the good student now, and you are riding that, but yet you said about five, 10 minutes ago that even now you're like, you're going to therapy. So although some things were firing all, some maybe not everything. So what was that things that wasn't going so well that you had to deal with while going through this process?

Speaker 2 (19:07):
You know, it's a great question and, and, and I like looking back because yeah, I've been talking about this high and it has been so exciting to recount it, but, which

Andrew Goldberg (19:15):
Is amazing to have, right? I mean, it's, it's really cool when you actually have that internal motivation to do something.

Speaker 2 (19:22):
You know, I think it's because law school is just that it's school. You know, it's not real life. When I graduated law school in 2009 and there were no jobs available at all, I didn't set out to become a disability attorney. I became a disability attorney because that was the only job available. I literally had no idea what Social security disability was when I applied for that job. Little did I know that would be my passion for the next 15 years and probably for the rest of my life. But, you know, when you get into the law, you're not analyzing a fiction, you know, it's not a hypothetical set of facts. And I'm just beating other law students here. I'm dealing with people's lives. Right. And, and, and going back to the earlier part of our profession is these people's lives are people who have come in and told us no.

Speaker 2 (20:11):
And you know, when you're going through the social security process and you're trying to prove someone is unable to work, I mean, you're dealing with a system that makes it almost impossible. I mean, to the extent that lawyers are even needed in the first place. Think about it like that. You know, why are we even needed to facilitate the application? It's because the application is so daunting. You know, you have to identify your work history, your medical history, and put those two together to show why you can't work. And it's tough. I mean, like I said, it's a thankless profession where we're not getting thanked. If anything, we're just constantly being told we're wrong. And when we're zealously advocating for our client and we're getting shot down by the other side.

Andrew Goldberg (20:56):
Yeah. I couldn't imagine if my profession was constantly being in some sort of argument. I

Speaker 2 (21:02):
Wouldn't even say an argument 'cause I wouldn't be fair to my wife. But, you know, my wife is a, she's a teacher and you know, she has stress, don't get me wrong, it, her job's not, you know, she's not walking and, you know, with butterflies on her shoulders all day, she has her own stress. But that's what I try to convey to my wife is that it's a constant fight. And I don't think of myself as a very confrontational person. I think of myself as a person that, you know, does not wanna walk by injustice. Every problem I've gotten myself into. I mean, you remember what happened to me my first year on Short Vine Street that Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, that infamous story. Oh,

Andrew Goldberg (21:39):
Yeah. Short vine. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (21:40):
But,

Andrew Goldberg (21:40):
You know, very different these days. What's that?

Speaker 2 (21:42):
It's different.

Andrew Goldberg (21:43):
Hey, I hear there's, there's like luxury apartments and condos and things like that

Speaker 2 (21:46):
There. Yeah. It didn't look like that when we were there.

Andrew Goldberg (21:47):
No, it did not. But

Speaker 2 (21:49):
That was, my life is not walking by and justice. So, you know, things happen for a reason. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> meeting you at uc, getting into criminal justice, seeing what happened to me on short Vine Street. We're really leaving that out there. Yeah. But, you know, it's, I want to help people. It's in my, in my nature. But it can beat you down when again, someone comes in with a note and you have to go up against a system where, you know, the legal standard of review or just the general idea of trying to show someone is unable to work is, is so difficult.

Andrew Goldberg (22:27):
Yeah. It's the, you're in a pressure cooker. Yeah. And the expectations on all sides for you to perform. And then the pressure you probably put on yourself to try to be helpful and to understand what you're even trying to do. Like I've tried to look at legal documents. I have no idea what I'm reading. And so I just can't imagine. And then for those who aren't even in litigation, who are just doing like the profession across the board, like the level of competition to try to get to those firms while you're a student to perform on, like, everyone needs to get on law review or something, and you need to have all these accolades so you can get to this or to that. Like, I just can't imagine. I had that for about a semester. I went to a research school in New York City thinking I'm gonna go from this master's PhD program and do some really cool stuff. And a level of competition was so cutthroat. I'm like, we're trying to be therapists here and like, just all that stuff just to get in through the door to do something that's helpful. I'm like, I'm not doing this anymore. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And so I went to California to some hippity DI school to get my doctorate. And that's, that's neither here nor there, but the expectation and the level of competition that you guys go through

Speaker 2 (23:41):
And, and it,

Andrew Goldberg (23:42):
How do you deal

Speaker 2 (23:43):
It, it doesn't end. You know, there's so many statistics about mental health and substance use and

Andrew Goldberg (23:50):
Emotional

Speaker 2 (23:50):
And mental.

Andrew Goldberg (23:51):
I think that's, I'm a little like it's a pet peeve of mine. We call it mental health, but it's really mental and emotional health.

Speaker 2 (23:58):
I like that. Yeah. I mean, it's an emotional profession. I, I, I really like how you framed it looking back at law school, looking at, you know, getting on a journal or being in top 10% or whatever you wanted to be. And that translates into the profession. I mean, we're type A people who want to win. Sometimes the other side is winning for, for you think it's wrong, what they're trying to do. You know, they're trying to show that your client's not disabled. Right. And you know, your client is, but maybe the, you know, maybe the way the law is written is not in favor of your client, you know, without,

Andrew Goldberg (24:35):
Or the misunderstanding, like we were talking about earlier with like, you have a client who had some sort of crippling depression, and so they should be in bed all day. And just the, the very stereo stereotypical characteristics of what people think in popular culture depression looks like. Well, but then you see the client, oh, they were laughing, smiling, talking to a friend. They must not be depressed. They're trying to game the system. They should be out there working. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And it's a completely misunderstanding that just because you have something that could be considered a disability doesn't mean it's gonna be that across the bar 24 hours a day. Like as a human being, they could smile and still wanna kill themselves a minute later. So it's how do we educate the system on what mental and emotional health really looks like? Yeah,

Speaker 2 (25:22):
It is, it is a lot of education. And to be an effective lawyer, you have to be able to do that. I spent a lot of time representing deaf individuals who were seeking access to interpreters in medical settings. As, as many people know, my wife is deaf. And when she moved to Cleveland, she opened my eyes to the deaf world and the deaf experience. I had really no knowledge of it beforehand. And she told me about how deaf people would go to hospitals. And these hospitals in Cleveland were not providing sign language interpreters. And the biggest issue was educating the defendants, the hospitals, their lawyers, judges about why this is a problem. Because they'd be like, well, your your client's, okay. There's no medical malpractice. But we would have to educate them. Well, did did they equally participate in trying to get them to, you know, stand in the shoes of a deaf person and say, well, how would you feel if you were a doctor and you couldn't understand anything that was going on and try to explain.

Speaker 2 (26:26):
So it is a lot of education. And it was very disheartening because a lot of the lawyers I dealt with, you know, we we're not handling those cases so much anymore. I like to say that we put ourselves outta business that a lot of the hospitals are providing sign language interpreters now. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> because of the great work we did. But a lot of the lawyers on the other side would say to me, you know, we get it. I, I had opposing counsel tell me what I was doing was noble, but that doesn't mean I could beat them with the law. You know? So you knew what you were doing is right. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. But were you gonna be able to win? And, you know, we can break down why a case like that is so difficult, but it's not where the point of this podcast, the point is, is that you know, what you're doing is right, but are you gonna be able to get it done within the framework of the law? And when you can't, how do you deal with that when you get home?

Andrew Goldberg (27:17):
Yeah. It sounds like trying to navigate a system, for lack of a better term, that's kind of broken.

Speaker 2 (27:24):
Yeah. I Or

Andrew Goldberg (27:25):
Dis dysfunctional. It's dysfunctional. Yeah. Yeah. How do you <laugh> for, for lawyers who are going through it now, and for those who are still in school and going to be lawyers, what's the bright light at the end of the tunnel? What's the 

Speaker 2 (27:39):
I think I can say this a straight face. I'm not sure I would recommend going into this profession. I wouldn't discourage anybody from going into this profession, but I wouldn't recommend it. I mean, it's a very hard job. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And there is satisfaction. I know what we've called it thankless many times today. But, you know, I've been doing this for a long time, and as a plaintiff lawyer, I've had the opportunity to represent so many people. So I do have so many stories,

Andrew Goldberg (28:03):
Hearts of that are thankless. But overall, you know,

Speaker 2 (28:05):
But you do make change, like I said, I mean, you know, with with the sign language expanding in Cleveland and in the medical setting or getting winning clients cases. When you met me today, I was looking at some favorable decisions, you know, so we do win cases and that is a wonderful feeling, but it's short-lived because you just go on to the next case and to the next set of No.

Andrew Goldberg (28:27):
Yeah. So it can be very stressful. And sometimes mind numbing, like bang your head against wall being like, how can I deal with this? Like, what, what did you say something about being like, you know, what you're doing is noble or it's a good cause, but will it still work? Yeah. Can you actually prove it? Yeah. And they have to go home and know that well, shoot, even though I'm telling the truth, it won't produce, the results can still lose. Yeah. And it's gotta be very stressful. Oh. And I think it's cool, like, doing this podcast is like one of the things that helps remedy that is community is connecting with each other, knowing that like, no, you're not crazy. Like, it makes sense that you're stressful. It's gonna be stressful for anybody where it's like your values are constantly being challenged here in order to try to be helpful. And so how do we support each other?

Speaker 2 (29:15):
Yeah. Being a lawyer, there are countless opportunities to drink. That has been one of the difficult things that I've seen in this profession is you're, I mean, maybe more so before Covid, right? Not, but I mean, how many open bars I get invited to and or just, you know, the invitation to go to happy hour. And I get it, you know, I, I, I get how people turn to alcohol because when you've been crushed all day by a court, by opposing counsel, by your client, you, you know, going home and having that drink kind of sounds like a good option just to numb it, numb yourself and go to sleep, but then start, but that's not healthy and that's not, you know, sustainable. So that's why this mission that the bar is undertaking this year with the new president, Matt Bester, is so critical because I have found my ways, I mean, if we weren't talking about me and my way of doing it is, you know, speaking about it, not holding it in.

Speaker 2 (30:12):
I mean, I, some people would say, I'm brave to come and share all of this on the podcast, and, you know, maybe I am. But it, it's critically important. I, I can talk about what I do to be healthy and that's, you know, getting out of the office. That's personally what I have found. You know, I don't have kids. I have a loving wife and two dogs, and the first thing I do every day when I get home weather permitting, and I'm very sad when I can't do this, is walk my dogs just to get away from the screen, just to get away from the email. Because the expectation is, I mean, I hate when people say sorry for my delayed response. Be like, you just emailed me three hours ago and I'm apologizing for, right. Yeah.

Andrew Goldberg (30:51):
The immediacy to be available.

Speaker 2 (30:53):
Yeah. And just the so many ways that people can get in touch with us. I mean, just within my law firm and our electronic platform, I was bragging about there's like seven ways to message me. You know, there's just so many ways to, to at me. Right. You know, and it's, it's taxing. So, you know, I encourage people to, you know, have an outlet if it's just as simple as what I'm doing, walking my dogs, you know, around the city, just to be away from a screen, to be in fresh air. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> that's what people need to have. And there are great people like you, you know, psychologists, therapists that people can just talk to, to help you reframe things to tell you you're not crazy that everyone else is going through this, all these feelings you have, everyone else has those feelings too. And I think that's the first step is recognizing that emotional health is, is something that we all struggle with.

Andrew Goldberg (31:46):
Because like, I know for my profession, there are a lot of, I mean by nature, like we're taught to be vulnerable, even though a lot of therapists and psychologists aren't, or they, they struggle with that. You know, mental health, mental emotional health is pretty hairy in my profession, unfortunately. And we're supposed to be the experts, but like, I'm very fortunate, I have a lot of therapist friends I can call and talk to and normalized that understand that mental illness, it's not so much within the person. It's, my job is more or less trying to put a bandaid on like, on the wound of society, because like, it doesn't really reside in the individual. It's us trying to navigate a dysfunctional society where our attention's constantly being bombarded by stimulation. I mean, heck, our whole society is functioning on consumption. And if you don't, my livelihood is completely a hundred percent dependent upon your consumption, vice versa. And if we don't keep doing that, then our lives are in jeopardy.

Speaker 2 (32:43):
To, to wrap up, I, I think one thing you just said kind of really resonates me is this is a profession where vulnerability is a bad thing. You know, you're out there to show that you have a strong case and you're gonna go all the way to prove it. And it can be a game of chicken when you're dealing with the other side. And if you let a little blood get into the water, the shark's going to come. Hmm. That does not mean that you can't open yourselves up to help outside of it because it's gonna make you a better lawyer. And, you know, there, there are programs, but there's not enough. And that's why I'm encouraged to see what the bar does this year. And I, and I hope, you know, we can be some of the first people to raise our hands and talk about our emotional health and say, we can be great lawyers, we can be great partners, great parents, great friends.

Speaker 2 (33:35):
If we recognize that we all have emotions. This profession is very difficult. But we're willing to acknowledge that and just get better. I mean, what I've learned in my, it's been almost a year Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> since I've been on this journey of, you know, investigating my emotional health. And it's been the best year of my life. I mean, it really has. I feel great. I think I did a great job for the first 39 years of my life trying to tough it up, tough it out, pull myself up by my bootstraps. But there's nothing wrong with raising your hand and saying, you know, you need a little help. And I think that's what everyone needs to do.

Andrew Goldberg (34:10):
Yeah. I like that. Just a little help. And recognizing the playing field, understanding that this is, this is the nature of, of, of the profession can't be vulnerable. Like necessarily like while on the job, you know, you have to present a certain way. And when that's over, how you can take care of yourself so you can continue to do this. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And just knowing that there's a level of dysfunction you have to deal with, and you're not crazy when you're feeling stressed out or having this like, you know, ups and downs, like, you know, some turbulence while going through it. It's normal. You're not alone. And there's ways to manage it is really cool to see. And especially that you all are doing this mental emotional focus coming up with Matthew Besser.

Speaker 2 (35:00):
Well, thank you, you know, for joining me. I mean, the world obviously keeps bringing us together, whether we're meeting each other at uc or running into each other, you know, so many years later, 20 years later, almost 20 years later on a, on a side street in Tremont, to sitting here at the Bar Association to do this podcast with you is is really great. And, you know, I'm so happy we can be part of this and I'm so thankful to the CMBA for allowing me to share my story. And I hope my story will help others. And I'm looking forward to working with you, Andrew. Andrew squared. Yes. And we'll certainly honor our memory of Andrew Soros. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> who passed away in 2000, when

Andrew Goldberg (35:38):
Was it? 2004.

Speaker 2 (35:39):
2004. Yeah. You know, right through our journey at uc.

Andrew Goldberg (35:43):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (35:44):
And you know, he struggled a lot and, you know, we can just honor his memory by being healthy and, you know, sharing our tips for health with others, and hopefully people don't end up, you know, in similar situations.

Andrew Goldberg (35:56):
Exactly. And like, just real quickly in, in the spirit of, you know, being helpful, for those of you who are in Cleveland on Sundays at 9:30 AM and then 11:00 AM at larger delicatessen in Ohio City, like free resource, I running these mindfulness groups for the community. And so there's anybody at all levels can attend. Doesn't cost anything. If you wanna donate, obviously, like, I'd be more than happy to take the donations. It's, this is gonna go to supporting the community and doing more mental health initiatives. But if you need some practices and a place to go to start to like, you know, learn a little stress management, that's a resource.

Speaker 2 (36:33):
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (36:34):
Thank you for joining us for another My Bar story. You can still sign up to record your own bar story@cclemetrobar.org slash podcast. Watch your podcast feed for a new episode coming soon. Have a great week.