Samantha Morgan: Drum roll please. It is the final episode of season one. We're fancy. We're celebrating.
Jenn Ocken: Yay.
Samantha Morgan: It is a good time. Yes. If you're not seeing this, it's because you're not on the YouTube video. If you haven't seen the YouTube videos yet, they're about what you would expect. But you should definitely go check it out, if anything, to see our headwear.
Jenn Ocken: It's not all about the production. It's about the content.
Samantha Morgan: Well, yes, and that's because I am your producer/...
Jenn Ocken: Master of ceremonies.
Samantha Morgan: So we're continuing our conversation from last time about money, money, money, money.
Jenn Ocken: Yes.
Samantha Morgan: And I think you teased me last time and you said something about referrals.
Jenn Ocken: Yeah, definitely.
Samantha Morgan: I need to know all about this, so fill me in sister.
Jenn Ocken: So I mean, to recap a little bit of last episode, if you hadn't listened to it yet.
Samantha Morgan: Previously on ThrivTALK.
Jenn Ocken: Right.
Samantha Morgan: Yeah.
Jenn Ocken: I explained kind of the psychology behind money and why people charge what they charge because it's just not for that moment in time or the production and stuff they have to do for the services, but it's their education, it's their quality of life. And then the big takeaway was that money really is just energy exchange in a form of appreciation for providing services, craft, talents, products, all that good stuff. So we also talked about how there are so many different layers to money. Joking, we could have a whole season on money.
Samantha Morgan: We really could/should think about that, just saying.
Jenn Ocken: I know. It's in consideration box. So I think you're referring to when someone refers you. I have seen...
Samantha Morgan: All my business. Everything I've ever gotten.
Jenn Ocken: Right, right, exactly. And same with me. And I have seen in the photography industry it done, where there are people that pay referral fees and offer referral fees and people that don't.
Samantha Morgan: What do you mean by referral fees? Let's start there.
Jenn Ocken: Well, Sam, you send a client my way and you're my client, I take 10% off your next assignment.
Samantha Morgan: Oh, okay. Okay.
Jenn Ocken: Or I give you cash for it.
Samantha Morgan: Yeah.
Jenn Ocken: That's a referral fee.
Samantha Morgan: Okay.
Jenn Ocken: Not everybody calls them that. But I'm one of the photographers that I don't really do referrals. I don't network and collect money that way. Because the other thing we were talking about in the last, that we teased on about the last episode was that creating a relationship with your clients and creating such a value that they want to send you more business because they appreciate what they do for you, and so you're like, "No, you got to use this person because they're so great, you're going to love them," that's a gift in itself to you. That's almost like a tip in sorts from your client.
Samantha Morgan: As we learned last time to ensure proper service.
Jenn Ocken: Yes. Yes. The idea behind a referral system I think negates and is kind of like, I don't want to say it because I don't want to put down anybody, especially if you use referral systems because there are definite ways to be used effectively, and it works for some people and people can make anything work.
Samantha Morgan: Sure. Yeah.
Jenn Ocken: But for me to only be getting a job because of the money that I'm getting back, it makes me a little nervous because who is that person? Is that person only coming to me because somebody got paid to bring them to me or they're coming to me because they love my services and who I am and what I can give to them, the whole package kind of thing?
Samantha Morgan: Right. They're starting from a lack, not from an abundance. Right?
Jenn Ocken: Absolutely.
Samantha Morgan: Okay.
Jenn Ocken: That's a beautiful way to put it. High five, Sam.
Samantha Morgan: I've been around you for a minute. I've picked up some things, ya'll.
Jenn Ocken: And you're bringing them to the fire.
Samantha Morgan: Bringing them to the fire.
Jenn Ocken: So I get it. At the end of the year, I give bonuses to the people that work for me, for sure...
Samantha Morgan: Yeah. Yeah.
Jenn Ocken: ... as a gratitude.
Samantha Morgan: Sweet.
Jenn Ocken: I get to choose how much it is. It's not because of anything they did. It's all about my appreciation for who they are and the relationship that we have, not because X, Y, and Z happened.
Samantha Morgan: Gotcha.
Jenn Ocken: And so when that whole referral fee or discounting, discounting somebody's invoice because they referred you to somebody sounds really great. But what if you want to stop giving that discount? It gets kind of weird on the next invoice. "Well, you gave me that last time." "Well, you got it because of this, and if you send me more people, I will do... It's just an odd conversation for me.
Jenn Ocken: Now, one thing I do do is that when two people come to a session back to back, and I'm pretty much doing one session, or two portraits within maybe a little bit more time than just the one session, I'll give each of them a little discount for coming at back-to-back session.
Samantha Morgan: Right, for making it easier on you.
Jenn Ocken: Making it easier on me.
Samantha Morgan: Right.
Jenn Ocken: So there's always ways to maneuver around that, especially between vendors in the wedding photography industry. So if you have an industry that has a collection of vendors that multiple people use, and if you use this coordinator, this florist, this photographer, and this, everybody will give you 10% off.
Samantha Morgan: Oh.
Jenn Ocken: What if that florist doesn't jive with my client like I jive with my client?
Samantha Morgan: Yeah.
Jenn Ocken: Something like that, especially when it's a service industry, it's so interesting to me how important relationships are and connecting with people. I ask when I'm interviewing potential clients for especially weddings...
Samantha Morgan: I love that, interviewing potential clients. Yes.
Jenn Ocken: Right. I ask them certain questions because I don't want to try to provide something that I'm not really excited about providing.
Samantha Morgan: Right.
Jenn Ocken: That's not where my value is.
Samantha Morgan: Yeah.
Jenn Ocken: I actually said to a bride today. I asked her how she came to me. And it was I'd seen my friends photos on their social media accounts that you took and we've heard really good things about you. And it made me feel very comfortable because in my eyes, birds of a feather flock together. And I love my clients. So if I enjoy photographing another person's wedding and they refer me, pretty sure I'm going to enjoy that person too.
Samantha Morgan: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jenn Ocken: So in referrals when it comes to altering your price or giving or receiving monetary value for referrals, that's not as important to me as understanding who it is and where they're coming from and to make sure that I'm of value and in a relationship with them as much as a quality of service that I can provide.
Samantha Morgan: So what are some of the ways, what are the things that you do to give those bonuses as you say to...
Jenn Ocken: Well, vendors, especially ones that I really connect with, I'll take them out to dinner. And then we get to sit down for an hour and have a quality conversation and get to know each other and understand what each other needs and see if I can help them with their businesses and maybe they can help me with mine. Not necessarily referring people, but in other things, like pricing or how to market.
Samantha Morgan: Right. Right.
Jenn Ocken: Or I actually created when I first moved to Baton Rouge, a bridal event that was as much a networking event with other local vendors as it was bringing brides to the table. We all invited our own clients that we'd already booked in hopes that there was a vendor there in our circle of really great people to work with.
Samantha Morgan: Yeah.
Jenn Ocken: Maybe one or two vendors of each kind of category were there. Super intimate. We really got to know each other. Super easy. It wasn't like a big trade show. So creating those kind of situations where you can build a relationship and build confidence within your network is I think more valuable when it comes to receiving a referral.
Jenn Ocken: Holding onto a relationship with your clients and providing a good quality service both with your craft or talent and with your personality, however that is, showing up authentically so that you're attracting people that you like to work with is going to attract more people organically.
Samantha Morgan: I love it. So since this is our final episode of this season one, I think maybe now we should kind of go over a few of the highlights from this season. What are the big takeaways? What are the things that you really want people to start incorporating into their practice?
Jenn Ocken: One of the reasons why we left pricing and money for the last two episodes is because everything that we talked about leading up to these last two episodes was there to build confidence, to establish boundaries, to step back and connect with your core values, bring you into a space that when you spill out that number, when you say that number, whatever that price, the monetary value that you have put on your craft or services or products comes and rolls off easily.
Samantha Morgan: Right.
Jenn Ocken: And we were talking about it last episode.
Samantha Morgan: Yeah.
Jenn Ocken: You were saying how you kind of choke up and then you overexplain why.
Samantha Morgan: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Jenn Ocken: There's a difference between overexplaining and educating people on your services.
Samantha Morgan: Fair. Fair.
Jenn Ocken: Right?
Samantha Morgan: Yeah.
Jenn Ocken: And educating, it comes from a space of confidence and a space of this is what I need to charge because I have value in myself and I like and love what I do, so that's more passionate. Overexplaining comes from a place that I'm not quite sure if what I'm charging I'm valuable enough to do.
Samantha Morgan: Okay.
Jenn Ocken: So we need to get the person that's not quite sure to this space. It doesn't matter what that price is.
Samantha Morgan: Yeah.
Jenn Ocken: It's all about a mindset, which is what our lean-in exercises are all about is cultivating, and what this first season was all about, cultivating confidence and a space where you can thrive because this is your passion, this is your livelihood, this is who you are and want to be as a career professional.
Samantha Morgan: Yeah.
Jenn Ocken: And that's a lot. That's a greater good thing. You asked, you were like, "How do we do that? How do we say with confidence?" And all that it is is practice.
Samantha Morgan: Yeah. Sitting in front of the mirror kind of thing?
Jenn Ocken: Or saying it.
Samantha Morgan: Just walking up to people and be like, "I charge this amount of money."
Jenn Ocken: Right. Or when your friends are around, you're in your group circle and you can interject that money just casually and let them flow off.
Samantha Morgan: You notice how I wouldn't even say what my rate was right now.
Jenn Ocken: As you shouldn't.
Samantha Morgan: Right.
Jenn Ocken: Because it's going up, right?
Samantha Morgan: Yeah, right.
Jenn Ocken: Everybody's going to have to come back to this. I mean, even in my 20 years as a professional career photographer, I still get hung up and caught up in my value. It's something that's never going to go away.
Samantha Morgan: Yeah.
Jenn Ocken: We're human nature.
Samantha Morgan: Right.
Jenn Ocken: We might just be having a bad day.
Samantha Morgan: Right.
Jenn Ocken: There's a lot of things on a psychological level that can affect that.
Samantha Morgan: Absolutely.
Jenn Ocken: In the same way that it can bring it down, it can also elevate it, which is why we need to work on our mindset. That's why you need to evolve as a person and grow in confidence and understand that your negative talk and speak is affecting you and that you need to change it.
Samantha Morgan: We should definitely hit on when do you go up on your prices.
Jenn Ocken: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. For me, it's always been when I started getting too much work.
Samantha Morgan: Oh. Okay.
Jenn Ocken: That's a beautiful indicator. You start getting really busy.
Samantha Morgan: Right.
Jenn Ocken: Another thing is inflation. I had to go up on my prices this year.
Samantha Morgan: Which we are currently experiencing.
Jenn Ocken: Currently experiencing. I mean, those are two things that come to mind right away. But there's other factors. Maybe you have gained more overhead. Maybe you haven't raised your prices in a while and it's time.
Samantha Morgan: Yeah.
Jenn Ocken: You'll be inspired. You'll know when that inspiration hits. I suggest stepping in and talking to a mentor. It's a good thing to hire a business coach for.
Samantha Morgan: Yeah.
Jenn Ocken: I have a lot of resources that I can send your way that are both free and paid for. If you're having a hard time with it, you've got to seek support like anything you would do.
Samantha Morgan: Yeah.
Jenn Ocken:
You know?
Samantha Morgan: Yeah.
Jenn Ocken: I was coaching another photographer and they don't really know how to use one of the programs that almost every photographer needs to use.
Samantha Morgan: Yeah.
Jenn Ocken: So you need to go and seek support to learn how to do it. It's a combination of knowing and trusting your instinct, creating the mindset of your self-value, because you are your own best friend your entire life, the only person that is the most consistent with you your whole life. So building that up and owning into the value that you can provide and trying not to compare yourself to other people. And another time I've raised my prices is when my competitors started to raise their prices.
Samantha Morgan: Oh, right.
Jenn Ocken: So I mean, that's another indication. So there's several. And it just really depends on the industry, depends on you as a person.
Jenn Ocken: Now, one thing I do want to say, I recently moved from a office back into a home office as a transition, but I'm not decreasing my prices because my overhead went down.
Samantha Morgan: Right. Right.
Jenn Ocken: Never go down.
Samantha Morgan: Never go down.
Jenn Ocken: And the same with the referral fee. If you discount an invoice because they referred somebody, that's actually going down in your price. Now, if you're having a sale that's temporary, three days because of a celebration or a certain time period, whatever, those happen all the time, but you're going right back to another price, there's terms and conditions.
Samantha Morgan: Yeah. Well, now, you have a lot of regular clients that you'll see multiple times throughout their lifespan and sometimes it will be big gaps in time between you see them. So I'm sure you've had price jumps between sessions with clients. So how do you handle telling those clients? Do they expect, are people mostly demanding of that?
Jenn Ocken: Yeah, they're for the most part. I'm preemptive. So I sent an email out this last time I raised my prices and said, "Effective now, everything is going up 50 bucks for the portraits," and this is happening and this is happening.
Samantha Morgan: So that's why having a really good email.
Jenn Ocken: Yeah. We didn't even get into any of that this.
Samantha Morgan: I know. I'm like, I have so many ideas for season two now.
Jenn Ocken: Put them in the content box.
Samantha Morgan: Yeah, we're going to have to put it in the content box. And we really want to hear from all of you. These were quick little snacks almost on a whole bunch of different topics. And we can definitely dig in and have a meal on something if we want.
Jenn Ocken: Yeah, I would be happy. You know what? You're right. I'm one of those people that have to be invited into a conversation in order for me to fully show up. And it's difficult when you're online and you have all these people just randomly seeing you, don't know what they want. But if I know what somebody wants to talk about, I can focus in. I am a big-picture person that loves to fan a flame. I love to fan...
Samantha Morgan: Yes, she does.
Jenn Ocken: Like, "Come on, let's figure out how we can all be successful."
Samantha Morgan: She is the fire starter.
Jenn Ocken: So yeah, definitely let us know what it is that you want to hear about because the minute I get an invitation to talk about something, we're all in.
Samantha Morgan: All right. Well, that's going to do it for season one of...
Jenn Ocken: ThrivTALK. I love my life.
Samantha Morgan: All right, y'all, we'll see ya in season two. Later.
Jenn Ocken: Peace.
