Healing the Trauma Response Among Leaders | Greg Wieting | Ep. 18

Leaders today have an opportunity to stop cycles of harm and heal patterns of multigenerational trauma. 

Leadership today can be very reactive. Our work cultures often don’t leave much room for us to be human, and so we find ourselves living predominantly in the logic mind, rather than in our physical or emotional bodies. 

Greg works at the intersection of leadership and healing. He believes that “to be a leader is to be a vessel of healing.” And this starts with self-healing. Greg works with leaders to heal burnout, anxiety and depression. His approach is rooted in trauma healing and weaves both somatic and mindfulness-based practices.

Inside today’s episode:

• Why healing our trauma makes us better leaders
• Regenerating ourselves after periods of burnout
• Why unresolved trauma is a liability 
• To be a leader is to be a vessel of healing

Visit https://www.gregwieting.com/ to download your copy of the 7 Essential Pillars to Heal the Past & Lead the Future (the free tool that Greg mentions inside the episode).

Transcript

0:10

The way we've been doing work and leadership is deeply broken. Whether you're healing from burnout or just looking for a better way to run your company, you're in the right place. What is the future of work even look like? That is a question we get to answer together. After working with 1000s of executives and entrepreneurs around the world. I know that the deepest leadership issues are deeply human. We've got to heal ourselves if we want to heal the world. Welcome to the new self Podcast where each week I'll help you explore topics that will level up your leadership and your life. I'm your host, Nicole Belisle. I'm a leadership expert and Reiki master, and I believe the secret to more conscious work and leadership is self healing, grab a seat and get cozy because we're about to go on a journey. Hey, leaders, welcome to another episode, I am joined by Greg Whiting. Greg is an amazing human being, as you will soon see, he works with leaders and entrepreneurs to help them heal anxiety, depression, burnout, and trauma. And he's doing this by bringing the worlds of neuroscience, somatic and mindfulness based practices into the leadership space. With the premise that if we can heal ourselves, we can heal the world. Greg has spoken at the Institute of Noetic Sciences about energy medicine, he's been featured in elephant journal daily, home and gay in America and has appeared in mantra magazine and 20. For life. Greg is someone who's really at the forefront of this intersection of leadership, spirituality, and healing. And this, as you know, is the space that we love to play in here on this podcast listeners you're in for a treat. This man has so much wisdom to bring. And I want to open with a quote that caught my eye. When I first met Greg, when we stop leaving, from a trauma response, we can break through upper limits. So our leadership can be a healing force for good. So that's what's at stake here. That's what's possible when we get into the space of healing and leadership. Stay tuned. This episode is so profound. I know you're going to take a lot out of it. Greg, thanks so much for being on the podcast today. I'm delighted to have you here. Yeah, I'm really happy to be here in a column. Thank you. I know there's a lot of ground that that we can cover today based on your your experience and your expertise. But I'd love to start by getting all of you in the room and invite your story of, of leadership and and what that has been like for you. Sure. Yeah. Well, you know, today I work with leaders to really address the trauma that is beneath anxiety, depression, chronic pain, burnout, emptiness. And the work I shares really, what I have T stout from my own healing path. I used to live in really debilitating chronic pain that was amplified from burnout in leadership roles. In my early career, I worked in the nonprofit world, and I was very much mission driven. I was made a purpose. And I really lost myself along the way. You know, there was great wins, we're moving legislation through and, you know, there's a lot to celebrate, but I have lost myself and I felt, you know, when I've lost myself, there really were no wins. And that really had me start to examine, okay, what am I doing here? And is this is this the way and really understanding that a lot of unresolved trauma was was driving my leadership, this pedal to the metal mindset, this hustling for my own worth, and, you know, I think I came to healing while I was doing this cost payoff analysis. All right, there's some payoff to this drive. But I think it's starting to cost more than it's paying off. And so that started kind of a renegotiation to better understand, you know, who I want to be and what I want to bring to the table in terms of my leadership. And so that kick started. Pretty amazing journey of healing. I resonate with that so much, Greg, especially the the physical stopping points of that can show up in burnout. And I want to dive into that a little bit deeper into the symptom. terms of, of your burnout, the symptoms of kind of showing up in in that old paradigm help us understand and paint the picture of what that not only what that looks like for you as a person, but how is that impacting? How you were showing up at work? And, and maybe even your team? Was it? Was that part of this equation for you? For sure. You know, it became, it was like I was just going through the motions, right just to get things done. So that that critical element of like centering one's humanity was completely lacking. Like, I didn't even know what that was right? I was just living in kind of complete survival just to get through the day to get through, especially working in the nonprofit world, which was not at least how this organization was run was not sustainable. Right. People were overworked, underpaid, and yeah, it just lacked, for me, especially as a leader. I mean, if I was running around with, you know, my head cut off, there was just no capacity to foster psychological safety interest or any sense of stability, right? It was more just putting out fires and putting out fires is, is exhausting, and you're bound to get burned? Absolutely, absolutely. I'm hearing and what you're what you're saying is, well, there's there's almost this quality of of your inner culture, matching the outer culture that that seems to show up in these contexts. And I can't help but think about how, how energetically inefficient that actually is of human potential and, and the impact that I believe our hearts really want to make. But when we're showing up in that way, in that in that state of, of reactivity, all the time, it's, you're stuck in that short term view, there's there's very little long term view. And in the sustainability world, especially where a lot of where a lot of my background is that is problematic for so many reasons. So I want to ask you, because I think this is a this is a, an awakening that that many folks are having of hitting that point of enough is enough, I can't go on like this, my body won't even let me anymore. Or maybe my family won't let me because that's falling apart. So what was your point of no return? Or your point of I know, this has to change? And what did you do once you realized that? You know, there was some serendipity, my there was a bunch of layoffs at the nonprofit I was working for. And so I kind of had an opportunity to either pursue other work in that realm, you know, while and while I was working those four years in this nonprofit, I was also so that was when I was starting to develop a healing practice. But you know, while you're just in the thick of it, the healing practices, like just helping you tread water, right? It's just healthy, you know. And when I was laid off, I just realized I had a really profound opportunity to just deepen into my practices. And I was young enough, and it was just the right time in my life that I made a big leap. And I moved to India for eight months, and I just took a sabbatical, and I immersed myself into meditation and healing. That was the type of reset I needed. And when I came back, eight months later, you know, the phone was ringing, and I had other jobs because working through this nonprofit to help get this legislation passed, I ended up working on a congressional campaign. So then I was just in the, the belly of the beast in terms of just the gnarly political maneuverings tight, you know, which is very divisive, right? And yeah, to speak into just the imprints of trauma, it's like, trauma will have us, like, fragmented and split, right. And when we're now no longer established in our wholeness, it's very difficult for us to then see wholeness in the world, right. And especially for change makers and purpose driven leaders. I think that's our job is to see the possibility of wholeness in the world, and then to claim it. And that becomes nearly a mission impossible when we are so fractured inside ourselves. And so that was the turning point. When I had that layoff. It's like, do I keep trying to figure it out in the system? Or do I need to maybe just take a pause and do some more inner healing, and I get it, not everyone has that opportunity. But I was it was early enough in my career that I was able to just take that an extended pause, but you know, Most of the folks I work with now are doing healing work while they're also running companies and, you know, being householders and raising families and, you know, doing the 1001 things every day. And so yeah, we can start to change the tide and become more established in our presence and, and redefine who we are as leaders. I love how you're framing this role that that leaders can play and that you are able to, to really step out and create the space and the stillness for yourself. Because I think, as, as you mentioned, if we're applying some of these practices, and I see this in some of the more mindful literate leaders, it's almost like applying that wisdom to the old model. And it like you said, it just gets us through, it allows us to keep showing up. But we're still existing within a very broken system and a very broken culture that at times, especially if it's a toxic work environment, is is perpetuating or triggering some of that trauma. So to actually give yourself the space to let that leave the system. And settle is I mean, not everyone can do it, like you said, but I the image that came to mind, as you were speaking was the sediment in a pond or in a river settling, right. And as a leader, you can not only be reconnected to yourself and have those those systems of self awareness, purpose come back online, but to see that big picture, like you're mentioning, so I just I commend you for actually getting outside of the system long enough to to regenerate a bit. And I'm curious about what what that experience was, was it difficult to let go of some of those, those patterned responses that you had maybe been living in previously? What What was that process like for you? Yeah, I think healing is first becoming aware of the pattern responses. And then, again, continuing that cost payoff analysis, because some of those responses are just just ingrained in us, right. So we're just going to default to them. And so every time we default to an old response is an opportunity to gather some more data points to understand. Where's that response coming from? Why have I depended upon it? Is it necessary now? And is there a different choice available, right, and a lot of times, the old response will come back on, but each time we forget, the new possibility is an opportunity to remember it. So I think there is a tension that is inherent within growth within Healing Within transformation, you know, I think we start to kind of tease out the pain or the struggle that we're motivated to get away from, and then set our sights on what are we inspired to move towards, right, what is more aspirational. And, you know, that's how we can start to develop new narratives, new behaviors, and beliefs that are organized around that possibility. And even I haven't even thought about these years and the nonprofit for a while, just so in this conversation, I'm just reflecting before that layoff, I was making a lot of changes, you know, the culture was often people getting into the office at like 10, or 11am. And then working until sometimes, like 11pm, and I started to decide in a new position, I'm going to work 40 hour work weeks, which, you know, literally, you know, and it was such a tight knit community, but that was going against the culture, right. And so this tight knit community, many who are my friends, that started to rub a lot of people the wrong way. And instead of me showing up at 10, or 11am, I'd show up at 8am, and leave, you know, just a few hours after other folks are starting. And so it was really hard to make these changes within that structure. And I'm just, I'm really appreciating that I, you know, I think sometimes it's like putting a stake in the ground, and what are these non negotiables? And what are these new boundaries? And, you know, I think so much of healing is better understanding what our needs are, and then finding how to articulate those needs an understanding that there are certain places where we're not going to get our needs met, and are we willing to stick around? Or are we going to create a new environment where you know, that can be better matched and that we can better provide and support the needs of others? You know, and I think that's, for me, healing is really an opportunity to either perpetuate cycles of harm and generational trauma or we have a unique opportunity to heal those patterns. So, for me, I think leader Worship is, you know, to be a leader is to be a vessel of healing. And I think that's a privilege and a great responsibility. I couldn't agree more that's resonating through my system so deeply to hear you frame it that way. I think that's part of what makes being a leader. Today, such a fascinating space to be in. And it does feel bigger than us in that way of this does feel like multi generational trauma, we're halting patterns that have had so much momentum for hundreds of yours. Now, if we look at the cultural roots of colonialism, capitalism, it's, it's hard to go against the grain. And so when you were describing, setting that boundary, and moving away from the the cultural norm, the cultural momentum, if you will, of, of the team that you're a part of, I think one thing that you highlighted that feels really important was yes, you're saying, you're saying no, this, this doesn't work for me. But this aspirational thing over here does. And so let me move away from what isn't working, but also remembering that we're moving towards something too, because it can, it can feel jarring, or maybe we feel bad for setting those boundaries and saying no, but there's also something we're building here in, in the healing. And so yeah, I guess I want to I want to hear more about this connection that you're seeing between healing and and leadership, you've at a high level, you've painted such a beautiful vision, but what what's possible as leaders when we do heal, what what shifts in in the outer impact or outcomes that we're able to create? Yeah, I think, yeah, leadership through a trauma informed lens is a deep sensitivity to the human experience, right, that I think so many of these systems and structures and organizations are really overriding the human experience, right? We're demanding that folks over Yeah, override just their own humanity, where, you know, it's natural for us to flip our lid, which is us losing access to our upper brain, and defaulting to fight flight freeze, or appease, which is more of our survival brain. And if we understood this in roles of leadership, first, we'd understand when we've lost access to logic and reason, and take care of ourselves. So we can come back online, and not, you know, be leading from a trauma response. But then we can also recognize that among those who are leading, right, and then offer the type of support necessary to help people regain access to their upper brain. And so it's, it's creating space to pause. It's inviting some of this mindfulness and I think mindfulness is our capacity to be with ourselves and to be with what is without reacting to what is without fighting against what is noticing everything we pile on top of what is so the judgments or the stories that we assigned to what is so removing the stories or removing the judgments so we can just be with what is which creates just more space for our humanity. You know, I have a lot of leaders I work with perfectionism is a big thing, that a lot of folks think that perfectionism is their strength, right? But, you know, perfect isn't possible, perfect, often fueled by a whole lot of fear and a whole lot of shame, you know, in early development, if we aren't getting our basic needs met reliably and consistently, that can signal life or death. And that sets up you know, an unconscious cycle of hyper vigilance where we then it's encoded in us that we need to take care of everything to be okay. So this patterning that is then fueling this perfectionism is also this lone wolf mentality, which, you know, really creates a divide between us and our capacity to be in relationship with others in a way that is, you know, fostering Trust and Safety and connection. So I think so much a leadership is reclaiming that, that relational field, where we can reside in a sense of trust and safety and support. You know, so much of trauma is imprinted upon us. When we feel isolated and alone and we're lacking support. And I think we are seeing a lot of the world is feeding off of that division and That alienation and that isolation within our teams. And so people are, you know, so in early development when we're not getting our needs met, we learn early on to either hide or perform parts of ourselves. And I think we see that in our adult lives and in our roles of leadership. You know, we're performing posturing parts of ourselves, hiding parts of ourselves. And I think there's an unburdening that happens in healing, where we can actually just be human. And, you know, part of being human as being messy. And I think also, when we start to dissolve the fear and the shame, it actually creates more space for us to be accountable for when we're messy, because we're all gonna make mistakes. But how can we actually, I think some of the greatest healing happens from the relational repair. So when we make a mistake, you know, how can we center everyone's humanity to, to create healing and foster more connection? So how can conflict even be a bridge to more connection, more cohesion? More unity? Like, that's so, so important. There's so many threads that I want to pull on in that, you know, so I went, Oh, my goodness, no, it's I mean, it's, it's really remarkable. I do see the perfectionist leader playing out quite a bit where there is that posturing, that masking presenting as feeling like you have to get it right. Or be right, and it's, there's something so relaxing in what you said, of oh, we do, we do get to be human, we do get to have that loving relationship, even within ourselves. And let go of that fear, let go of that shame. And that that actually creates space. So I'm, in real time, it's sinking in on a deeper level for me that healing creates space. And there's so much that is possible in the space around not only vision and connecting the purpose, but but this this coherence that you're talking about. And I'm reminded of the HeartMath Institute, they have this this heart rate variability monitor, and I'm just imagining how many teams out there are, are going around with very little coherence between these, these three centers of intellect in the body, right the mind, the heart, the gut. And when that is, is dysregulated, when the nervous system is dysregulated, so much goes out the window as far as our human relating potential, our decision making. And then if we're trapped in that fear, and pinching off our bigger selves, if you will, we're showing up in a fragmented state, which is a word you used earlier, and I can't help but feel like sometimes when I look at the the global, the global stage, if you will, of how things are playing out. We're a bunch of hurt traumatized children, trying to save the world, but bumping into these things left and right. And it's yeah, I just I'm really, I'm really appreciating your frame and how, how much it feels like a critical path to, to actually creating the impact that that our Earth and our our collective health is meeting. So I don't see how we get there without this, to just Yeah, blown away by how you're, how you're thinking about this. And, you know, it's, for me, I'm just seeing Yeah, what's playing out on the world stage is really a crisis in leadership, which can feel like, you know, the end of the world, it can feel like doomsday. And yet, as cliche as it sounds, we need to see it to heal it. Right. So everything that's being displayed on the world stage, is now for all eyes to see. And when all eyes can see, it gives us an opportunity to question if this is what we want. And if it's not what we want, what do we want? And then we can start to explore well, how do we get there? Right? And I think healing provides a unique opportunity. Like I love the Yeah, talking about coherence. I love heart maths work. And, yeah, the sense of heart brain rhythms being syncopated, right, so we are in this unified state of resonance, and I love the imagery of the body and the mind and the spirit as a symphony orchestra. So when we're experiencing health, all the different parts of us are in constant communication from the cells to the organs to the hormones to the neurotransmitters to emotions, beliefs, you know, everything. And yeah, when the nervous system gets short circuited, then all of a sudden that communication starts to break up, and we start to create noise. And that noise is our disease, our illness, that's our conflict. That's our struggle. That's our inability to understand what we need communicate our needs to get our needs met. And healing is just breaking up the noise. It's a return to what in chiropractic was coined as innate wisdom. So decades ago, the term innate wisdom, you know, if we get a paper cut, there is some healing mechanism that is inside of us that orchestrates you know, healing the paper cuts, sending the platelets and the proteins and orchestrating all of these biochemical transmissions. So healing is just a return to our innate wisdom, our inborn, innate and natural capacity to heal. It's not so much about trying to figure out the trauma and the wounding, it's not about trying to fix it, because actually, nothing is really broken, things are maybe out of balance, but they're not broken. There's just these mal adaptations to stress. But the more we connect to our innate wisdom, then the more we start to renegotiate those mount adaptations, and come back to that symphony orchestra that we are, and there's a musicality of being that is just inherent within us. And having experienced that myself, you know, I'm three inches taller than I was 25 years ago, this unraveling this severe curve, and my spine, you know, I'm no longer struggling with chronic pain, anxiety, depression, which was all organized around developmental trauma. Seeing kind of that crisis state turn into opportunity within my own body, mind, spirit, I, I just know that that's possible. And so I hold that vision for the collective. And so I think as leaders, it's really important for us to hold a cohesive vision of possibility, excuse me, because I think trauma, trauma help breaks up a unified, cohesive narrative or through line for our lives, right, it creates these distortions and these fragmentations. So I think as leaders, it's imperative that we hold a through line of clarity of vision for the future. And that becomes our why. And that becomes a generative force that we continue to reference back to. And that's kind of where we kind of are holding out the light or the torch. And that's no easy task. But the more we we find that within ourselves, the the more, the more able we are to hold that for others. Yeah, I've, I've come to think of leadership, as a sacred practice, almost as sacred as meditation, yoga and thinking about it, in the way that you're describing it, where we're trauma, and these stories are these these dramas of our lives can can interrupt the cohesion. That's such a helpful, visual, and what gives me hope, in what you're saying, as well is that trauma isn't bad, it's it, it exists, and we get to be with it. And we get to metabolize it, if you will. But we're not broken, we're not we're not a thing to fix. And when we actually get to that spaciousness that you're describing, it sounds like that getting to this innate wisdom is almost like this energy PS or this inner compass that just needs to be dusted off in a way and I can't help but think of how, how water will always find the path of least resistance, right? It's like, there's something in us that already knows how to get us there. And if we can declutter some of that noise, as you're saying, and might sound cliche, but sort of move towards that light traveled down the path of least resistance that that there is actually more coherence possible for all of us. And so yeah, again, loving, loving how you're framing a lot of this and I want to get I want to get practical for a moment, in the clear in the practices that you've found. Helpful for clearing this space for doing the decluttering for reducing the noise. What practices in within your sacred practice of leadership, are you finding to be most effective? Yeah, and just to kind of reiterate, yeah, I think so for me, excuse me, my journey and returning to wholeness gives me the capacity to see wholeness in the world. Right. And I think that becomes the sacred practice for us to continue to scan for wholeness because negativity bias The brain is always going to default and look for danger and what's wrong and what's bad. And it's our job as leaders to have an awareness of what could go wrong, but not energize that we are energizing what could go right, right. And so yeah, the practices that have been, you know, part and parcel of my own healing, and that I share with all of you know, the leaders that I work with my students and my clients, I overlay trauma, excuse me, I have a tickle in my throat today. No worries. So I overlay trauma and neuroscience with somatic and mindfulness based practices and energy medicine, which is a mouthful, so I'll break all that down a little bit, please do. You know, we've talked about nervous system regulation as a baseline for creating stability and presence, right, it's like a seaplane that lands on water kind of bounces up, and then lands again bounces up. So we're training the nervous system to finally land. And that's where we can derive safety. And safety is necessary in terms of neuroplasticity, our ability to rewire the brain, you know, our imagination literally creates the structure of our brain, and then the structure of our lives and the structure of the world. When we've got trauma on the brain, then the structure of our brain is organized around danger around hyper vigilance around separation and isolation. So once we locate safety, we can start to generate new neural pathways of possibility and cohesion and connection. And so that is a practice, right? So every day, I have a choice. And I can catch when my brain is scanning and defaulting to danger to what's bad and what's wrong. And then it's like, alright, is that the only truth? Let me scan for what else could be true? Or what would I like to be true? And what are the practical steps I can take in alignment with that, right, so not believing everything we think, and then realizing that there's a power to thought so we can choose to think something different. And so that's like, the mindfulness piece is really the necessary mind training to reorient from pain to possibility. And I get it, sometimes we're in the trenches of our wounding and our trauma, and in our pain, and it's really hard to set our sights on the horizon of possibility. And so that's that's the work though, right? We and if we can't see that horizon of possibility, once we want the horizon of possibility to feel like, right, so connecting to a vibrational level, so a lot of folks will come to me and they don't know what they want, or what they desire. So it's like, well, what would you like it to feel like? And let's start by cultivating that vibration, because the more we actually live in that feeling state in this moment? Well, it's actually true, and it's here, and it's now. And that's, that's power, right, then we have literally shifted, you know, our, our heart brain rhythms to a more coherent state that is helping us live in the vibrational patterning of that, which we want. And so I overlay the, the somatic piece to because like a bird that flies into a window that drops to the ground, you think the bird is dead, but it's just in shock, right? And how many of us are in shock with trauma patterns that we have dissociated, and we've cut off from parts of ourselves, so we're living from the neck up, right? And when we have when we lack the capacity to feel ourselves, we lose presence and agency, right? And so, without agency, well, we're going to probably feel pretty stuck. Like, and that's, that's problematic. So how do we thaw out that freeze response? And how do we come back into being able to feel ourselves? And so working with somatically oriented practices to do just that? And the trauma and neuroscience roadmap is really, you know, I felt for me, I was going to healers in therapy for years. And I knew I was on the right track. I was starting to feel some shifts, but I still didn't really know where I was or where I was going, you know, so I felt like I was kind of traveling blindfolded. So I provide to everyone I work with, with a roadmap that has the seven Prisma pillars, which really mapped kind of this journey from pain to purpose. And I love the idea of just how do we mind the goal of unresolved trauma so we can derive more meaning and significance in our lives. And, you know, purpose is a big piece of resilience, right? Without a sense of purpose. It's really hard to cultivate resilience. And so redefining purpose as intrinsically motivated. So it's not about you know, getting the next award or the next recognition or the next outer, you know, marker of success. It's more about who we are and what brings us to life, and really how a quality of presence and an emanation of being can be our purpose. So it's not so much what we do, but who we are. And so that's why I think who we are really informs how we lead. So overlaying all that with energy medicine, which I was introduced to energy medicine, way back when I was, you know, in debilitating chronic pain with my scoliosis, I met a massage therapist who offered me a massage. And I did not want a massage, because just physical touch was too painful. And so she introduced me to energy medicine, which was completely foreign to me, I was living a whole different world. And I realized within moments that I found something I didn't even know I was looking for, it was as if I like lifted up and out of my pain body, which until that point, my pain body, my trauma, my drama was all I knew, right. And so I got to actually taste, get a taste of who I am outside of my pain, which was remarkable. So energy medicine really helps us heal a lot of the pain and the wounding that we can't think or talk our way through, we get to bypass the brain, and helps to connect us to that innate wisdom break up that noise. So that Symphony Orchestra comes back online, you know, more practically speaking, it's helping to calm the cardiovascular system, regulate the nervous system, strengthen immune function. So again, it's lending itself to that state of coherence that the Heart Math, you know, does such a good job articulating, and actually monitoring. And so I find pairing the energy medicine with the Cymatics. And the mindfulness and the trauma and the neuroscience, really create a healing path that is accessible for folks, I'm really committed to making healing, practical, and I want to really democratize it. So people don't have to go get a PhD or spend decades or years in therapy, they can actually get practical tools to heal themselves. And I'd like to demystify it too. So I don't heal people, I don't have some power, that I hold over people to heal them, I've share a lot of tools that have helped me heal myself. And over the last 25 years, I've reverse engineered so other folks can learn those tools and heal themselves. And I think when we heal ourselves, we heal the world. And if we're in the world of social impact, if we're mission driven, I think that's, you know, our humanity is our greatest asset is speaking of Symphony, it's hearing you speak, it's, I mean, I'm sitting in the symphony of resonance with what with what you're sharing, and really hearing how you're practicing on on all three of those levels of mind, body, and soul or in the energetic realm. And I love that you found a way to bring energy healing into it. Because I think, whether leaders realize it or not, they're energy managers on some level, managing their own energy managing the energy of their team. And so to to have this, this layered approach this multi dimensional approach to practice feels so powerful. And yeah, I get excited. I get excited for more people to try this on. And I think it's becoming more mainstream. And I want to ask as well, if someone's just getting started, or if this is a new world, tip for them, like it was for you when you went to that massage, and first, were introduced to energy healing, where can people get started in beginning to heal themselves so that they can heal the world? As you said, Yeah, I think there's no prerequisites for healing. So I think it's just start where you're at, you know, and so, follow the breadcrumbs on your path. You know, for me, I think before I was introduced energy medicine, I had been reading some books on mindfulness and some Eckhart Tolle and, you know, spending time in nature and listening to music were like my bread crumbs that were helping me get a taste of like my wholeness and myself a connection to myself and my healing capacity. But yeah, I have a download a free download that outlines the seven Prisma pillars and gives prompts and give some mindset mantras to just help people kind of reorient to these logical steps on a healing path. And yeah, this day and age, well, my work is all online. So I have you know, I'm working with folks all over the country. So I think healing is just never been more accessible than it is now. And I think what's really important is finding the people that you resonate with, I mean, so yes, it's important to have modalities and treatments that are effective. And that work, you know, proven systems just as important is to partner with, you know, the people that you can have a resonance with, there's just a lot of research around the therapeutic benefit of the right relationship. Right. And so, so much of what we're talking about is this fragmentation within us and this fragmentation relationally, this disconnect, so much of the therapeutic relationship that you have with a healer, a teacher, a mentor, a therapist, becomes a learning laboratory for how do we repair our connection to you know, others? You know, I think healing is both our relationship from ourselves to ourselves, and then our relationship to others. Yeah, absolutely. I'm glad to hear that there are some resources that listeners can go grab, that sounds amazing. And I appreciate what you're alluding to here around each person's path can look different like that our path to healing can be as diverse as we are, and following those breadcrumbs honoring that, that innate wisdom to help guide you towards what's right for you. And being in that right relationship. This, this move from that that sort of assembly line approach to healing our solution moving from that to this more customized path. There are so many patterns that I think we are shifting away from and moving into something else. And I appreciate how you've, throughout this conversation, illuminated a lot of those paradigm level shifts in what's possible, and I want to I want to end by asking, what what is the better world that your heart knows is possible? And what is the impact that you're really wanting to, to see in the world so that we can all add our intention as listeners to that? Yeah, I love that. You know, I think authenticity, you know, just people feeling, no reservation in being themselves, because I think we each have such a valuable contribution to this world, just through living into our own hearts song. And that is how we then harmonize with the whole, right, so I'm just seeing a return to wholeness. So, again, back to kind of tying up the whole conversation, what may seem broken in the world, what may seem like what is just the shattering of what we've known in the world is really moving us closer to a more unified field of intelligence, and just this, the Symphony Orchestra of humanity. And, and I see that more and more, even when we're seeing socially, politically, economically, more and more forces that are working against humanity. I think that's just actually just helping to strengthen and galvanize the, the human spirit and the resilience that is inherent within each of us. And so, yeah, that piece around purpose, I think, what I'll leave it off as it's like, you know, dharma is like this are our life path, our life purpose. It's like this a star in a constellation. It's like knowing our place in the cosmic order. And that star in a constellation just gets to be itself. It's not trying to be anything, it's not, it's not trying to be another star. And it doesn't have to do anything, it just gets to shine. Right? And I think healing helps us just rest in our humanity, rest in our heart, song, and, and shine. And I think that is possible. And I think the more each of us as individuals comes online, in our own constellation, it just starts to shed light on the other constellations in the sky. I can think of no better place to end this incredible conversation than with that metaphor. Thank you for leaving us with that visual. And we'll we'll drop all of the links for the listeners on where you can find Greg connect with his work, download the free resource that he mentioned. Greg, thank you so much for sharing all of these deep, deep nuggets of wisdom. It was such a pleasure to be in this conversation with you. Thanks, Nicole. My pleasure. Have a beautiful day. The inner work is often the hardest one Right, but it is the work required for lasting change and healthier future for us all. If you found the show valuable, please leave a review and subscribe. You can also take a deeper dive with me at Nicole bellisle.com. Thanks again for being here and showing up for your new self. Your future self is certainly thank you