Prototyping Community & Money-Less Economies | Martin Theis | Ep. 19

What does the future of community, governance and finance look like? 

Humanity is a massive evolutionary moment across all systems. Many of our systems are failing, and we’re seeing the harmful limitations of our dominant western culture play out on a global scale. When you layer in climate change and biodiversity loss, the future starts to look pretty grim…

However, humanity is adapting and prototyping new ways of being and doing, all around the globe. Today’s guest, Martin Theis, is one of these humans. Through various communities and the music scene in Germany, Martin has first hand experience playing in non-monetary systems of exchange, self-organizing communities of creation, and different governance structures. 

In this episode:

• Piloting new ways of doing community, governance and value exchange 
• Prototyping money-less economies 
• Embodying our values to serve as models to others 
• Governance and decision making in a self-organizing system 
• Moving from transaction to reciprocal generosity 

About Martin Theis

Martin is a spiritual coach and teacher who focuses on mental and emotional well-being through the art of shamanic journeys. 

The coaching practice Light Trails Co.'s mission is to assist others on their journey from suffering to inner peace and joy.

Martin lives in Germany, Norway and Hawaii and is in the process of building a decentralised network of non-profit orginizations that aim at building low entrance barrier refuges for people to find healing and regeneration. 

Learn more about Martin and his work: https://www.lighttrails.co/webinar-series/ 

Transcript

1:01

Hey leaders Welcome to the show I am with a wonderful human being named Martin Tice. Today, Martin is a spiritual coach and teacher who focuses on mental health and well being through the art of shamanic journeying. And he splits his time between Germany, Norway and Hawaii. So naturally, as a fellow digital, global Nomad, I was very curious to talk to Martin. So Martin and I hopped on to get to know one another before recording this episode. And I got to learn about the wealth of knowledge that this man has around building communities, and specifically piloting new ways of governance, value exchange, and relationship building inside of these communities. And from where I sit looking out in the vast landscape of leadership, I find that building this skill set of piloting, iterating, and even failing is so important for the world that we are now getting to build the collective future that we are now stepping into. Together, we all get to participate in this. Martin brings some really interesting nuggets around money list economies, embodying our values as leaders to really model versions of community and economy that we perhaps have never seen before. If we've never seen it, how can we know how to really participate with it, often we bring the very things from the old system that we are trying to move away from. So he's seen a lot. And he's going to walk us through today, how he has seen different governance and decision making structures work inside of self organizing systems, which I believe really is the way of the future on this path to moving from a transactional way of relating into really reciprocal generous relating across all of our relations. Thanks for being here. And let's get into the episode, Martin and I hopped on a call just to get to know one another. And I was blown away by the wisdom that he has around community building and prototyping different governance and decision making structures within community. He also has a lot of experience when it comes to curating money lists, economies or different forms of value exchange within community that we might not be used to. So as we collectively move from transactional forms of relating into something more generous and reciprocal, what can we learn from what Martin has seen in these communities where they're not using money, most of us have never experienced that before and have no idea how to bring ourselves and our mindsets to that sort of environment. So Martin, in this episode also shares his perspective on how we as leaders can really model the very values that we're inviting people to move into in some of these newer structures that we are helping to build. Martin also dropped some wisdom around self organizing systems and adaptive leadership or distributed leadership. And both of these are different, again, than what we typically see inside of a hierarchical organization, for example, where we are turning to one person or a very small subset of people, for the answers and for our decision making. This is a very intellectually stimulating episode. And I hope you enjoy traversing these topics as much as Martin and I did. Thanks again for being here. And let's get into the episode. Martin I am so looking forward to our conversation today. Thank you for being here and being present. Thank you for the invitation. The pleasure is mine as well. Thank you. I've been so looking forward to this since we first spoke and, and to offer a little context to our listeners, Martin and I met through pod match, which is actually almost like a dating service or a dating app for podcast hosts and guests. And I've been really impressed with the quality of guests that I've been finding and Martin is no exception. We hopped on a few weeks ago to drop into what we might speak about today and there's a depth there's there's such a depth in this being that sits before me and the wisdom that he brings. So Martin I want to I want to pick up where we left off last time because I found this to be so profound and and such a such a beautiful doorway into the conversation. I hope we have today. And last time we had shared that in the hall. Over an executive education program that I'm a part of, we do this incredible activity called our a deep climate story. And essentially, we take the executives through this 100 year timeline, where each executive plots on the timeline the year where they think they themselves will die. And if they have children, they then also put a point on the timeline of when they think their children will live to. And from there, we start to weave this context of, of climate science, essentially, and looking at what some of the predictions are from, from various futurists, and what we know about various systems collapse that we might see in the years to come. And as we're weaving this, some of the executives are starting to tear up starting to visibly cry, I mean, it's so emotional to, to not only face our mortality, but also the mortality of of our future generations and the reality that they might be stepping into. And by the end of this activity, we paint the story that not all hope is lost, the the humans who who make it, the humans who design our new world, and the systems, or community structures that that are resilient enough in the future, these are the groups that started to iterate and prototype different ways of being much earlier on in the timeline, in in the times that we find ourselves in today. And I've been so excited to talk with you about this. Because if we, if we accept this for a moment that we are in a moment of have a deep need to prototype these systems, and begin testing iterating getting really uncomfortable, moving through our fears, letting go of ego being comfortable with failing, so that we are not wasting any more time in this prototyping. I mean, this is there's so much at stake when when you look at it through this lens, and you're someone who, who has some experience looking at these different formats for community governance. And so I just want to invite you into this conversation through through that deeper context and ask, what what have you? What have you experienced in this in this realm of of prototyping? And can you can you help paint a picture of, of what you see possible in in this arena? I know, that's a big question. Yeah. So I want to I want to disclose or break it is closer, this is just my personal point of view, you know, I everything that comes out of my mouth is tainted. So. But absolutely, I think the most important thing we have to admit right now is that there is this need for progress. And there is this need for everything that you just mentioned. But there are also people who will be holding on steadfast steadfastly to the old to the material kind of security and to the old ways in terms of system models, organizations, everything. So always to be aware that it's not we are all off into this new world, and we're diving into something unknown, but that there will be resistance from the systems that we are currently facing, you know, so just to to frame this in the right way. And from from our experience as a collective, but just maybe as a reference for you. I was part of a collective in Germany that was investing their energy into creating spaces, cultures, cultural spaces, and music spaces for all people without any limitations, access barriers, financial barriers, so we were trying to give everybody good time basically and to express ourselves and move move the system that we were in which was difficult. In the in the sense of that the city cologne was not inviting collectives to create these kinds of spaces, but we were we were vigilantes or kind of Gorilla, Gorilla organizations who did these things and now and so my, my personal point of view on this is that there is a shift going on from pure hedonism from kind of like partying and self expression and to, to being more aware of the problems that we have, and that we can connect these things with each other, we can dance, we can have a good time. But it's also important that we have a space for maybe workshops or for lectures where people thought leaders come up, and they just share what they what they learned. And so I think, at least what I experienced in different kinds of places is that there is an awareness of a need to go forward and to find new solutions. But then it's also difficult, like it is really difficult in the sense of it is grassroots movements who don't make a living out of that, and they are opposing, in a sense. I know of like the thriving industry where money is a big player, you know, and so it can feel a little disempowering To be honest, like, where we are these, we are just a small group of people, how should we change the status quo, you know, and sometimes forgetting that, by sharing all that, and by creating more more organizations in the image of that, that it is about, like the masses, probably, but from all that you said, I would say that the deep dive into timeline is helping to really see we don't have any time. But also on the other hand, to not or to avoid falling into this anxiety trap, you know, that everything is lost, we, we don't have to even try because everything's gone down the drain anyways, you know, and seeing as these exit executives that you described, seeing how the world is going to change how their children are going to experience certain things that they experienced probably when they were young, probably in context to nature. And the beauty of nature, I think that is what what would come to my mind that if I imagine my kids, if I had kids and 3040 years would be visiting some of my favorite places in the world, and that they might not even exist anymore, let alone the animals and mass extinction that we're currently like, in the middle of that would that would definitely what that resonates with me from that point of view. So I think it is important to just be aware that we don't have like, maybe, maybe I can't say like this. There's a famous famous and beautiful quote from from from Buddha. It's supposed to be from the Buddha and it's Before enlightenment, we chop wood and carry water. And after enlightenment, we chop wood and carry water. So we have to work anyways, right? We as human beings have to sustain ourselves, we have to do certain things we have the effort that is going to be life itself. So why not focuses on focus it on something that is moving forward, something where we may be making some mistakes, but also where we learn something where we try stuff out. And rather than kind of like being in this comfortable position, where it's all on autopilot, and we're just cruising through, I don't know our lives so that in the end, we have 1010 years if we're lucky, sometimes where we get money and don't have to work right and so why not use that element of we have to we have to sustain ourselves anyways, why not make it something beautiful and expression of creativity and of life and of beauty, compassion, love? Why not do that instead of just defaulting into this old mode of how we used to do things? Yeah, beautifully said I love. I love the imagery of the of the Buddha quote that you that you brought in there. And I think there are a few threads that I want to pull on here that feel really significant. And one is the appreciation for you naming that. This can all be true. Our you know, our context can be sort of spiraling into a lot of complexity or chaos or systems collapse and we don't need to be all Bloomsday about that in fact, to to be purely in the negative or to be in the fear we lose access to that executive function in our brain we lose access to the the hope and the the love within that that keeps us going even through those hard times. So having In this, this positive outlook of, yes, let me keep chopping the wood and collecting the water. And let me let me maybe do this in a way where I have a bit of a longer term view on how the way that I chop wood or where I collect the water might impact future generations. And I also want to touch on what you mentioned about about money as well, the image that came to mind as you, as you shared about how, as we seek to change as we seek to evolve these systems in the best ways that we can, that there will be a lot of resistance to that. And what comes to mind is almost this biological image, right of when the body has a virus er has these, these foreign invaders that come into it, the whole system, as a form of self preservation, and protection and longevity, goes into this survival mode. And it's, it sees that that you know, those invaders as as a direct threat, and it's going to do what it needs to do to survive. And so I often see that biological metaphor in, in how in how we approach change and how, how I empathize actually, with the the monetary systems that we have, and the hierarchical systems that that have thrived on collecting and maybe even hoarding power, for example, or have really benefited from creating these wealth gaps. It's it's become these have become strategies for the continued lunge, longevity of that type of system. So it's like, yes, of course, it's going to go down swinging, of course, it's going to go down fighting, and how do we love it all the way through? How do we hospice, that system, all the way through to its death day, and let that actually be a beautiful thing. Because then the energy that was embedded in that system and the resources that had been sucked up by that system, are redistributed elsewhere, because the the other thing I really resonate with in what you said, is, when you step outside of the system, it does feel disempowering, that there is often not money, and we do have these basic needs to support ourselves. So so how do we, how do we lovingly divest from the systems that have maybe grown so large, that they are harming us and our planet? And at the same time, be be experimenting, not with a doomsday urgency need, because that's a red flag to that takes us out of our own alignment. But be doing this out of love for the planet love for future generations? Whatever our reason might be? So yeah, there's there's so much there's so much in, in what you're saying. And I yeah, I'm curious. I'm curious, as I say, all that what shows up for you in what you've in what you've seen or what you hope for in in the future. Yeah, I think I think it is, is like when you started speaking, I thought about a lecture from a cartrawler. And where he just uses the meta or the, that higher higher plane that you described, about consciousness itself, that even if the goal the whole planet would fear, what would experience a mass extinction and 90% of life would be wiped out consciousness itself would stay the all the experience everything, all that that state of consciousness would, would be reborn and would be reborn even more with, with more complexity with more awareness with more kind of like, with a higher state of consciousness in itself, and just that as a context is for me, kind of like that. In that that emotional pacifier or maybe even spiritual pacifier that I have to suck on sometimes when I get too gloomy, because I feel like Oh, my God, everything is going down the drain and nothing is happening and everybody is just like, totally absorbed with their own individual lives. And so when when I'm on that spiraling, or on that spiral down, then I just remember Okay, well, consciousness itself is still here, won't go away. And we do Like, it's all going to be fine. And in a sense, you know, that was one thing that I, that I thought of when you were speaking. And that it is our responsibility to be honest to learn as human beings to be able to see the beauty in the destruction to be able to kind of like see the glass half full, you know, we are trained in this in a like, in a in a, in a great way. At least in all those places where I went to so far I have been mostly in the in the in the West, as you said, or the global north. So everywhere I went, I saw that there is a great disposition to negativity or to being socialized in a way where it is focusing on the bad things. And I think that is our greatest responsibility as human beings to be able to elevate, Sue that pattern into something where it's, it's getting more constructive, because as you mentioned, the the worst thing we can do is just write it off, I think it's all it's all past, any, any anything we can do anyways and to let go, and then all the creativity, all the systems, everything that we could come up with, if we stay productive, if we stay positive, they we won't have access to that. So I think that is the most important thing to find each person individually, but also in these in these organizations in these systems in these communities, to find a way to keep that elevated state, in a way and to regain it kind of like when we do sports, an athlete who is really good in good shape, their pulse is going down really fast when they had a like a really extremely extensive or intensive peak with their heart rate, right. And we measure how well someone is trained how fast that pulse goes down into the normal average kind of zone. And so to be able emotionally and spiritually in with our whole being, to kind of like find that balance. Again, when there is a negative impact. When I had an argument or a stressful situation where something bad happened, how long does it take for me to regain my composure? I think that is kind of that what I think about what we have to do, because when we get to do that, then we are able to help others to just be there with that state, we don't have to do anything to just like be in that awareness. And to help them therefore to regain their composure and to find that balance. And I think organizations and communities were able to facilitate that process and to help each other out are much more resilient than others where everybody fights for themselves and tries to get ahead and on and on. You know. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I think that that is so it's so important that we investigate what maybe these new reflexes are or these these responses within us this because it almost feels like a skill set to be able to navigate with self regulation in our systems to stay to stay online to stay connected to be able to nurture ourselves through really difficult things or show up for one another that it feels so important that we build that muscle and that we we develop those those reflexes, especially if those triggering or difficult events become more prevalent in a way. And the the other thing that you mentioned around sort of incentives, right, it's, I think, what I'm what I'm seeing in, in what you just shared there is our incentive structure also changing at the same time that these reflexes grow. We've lived inside of a system for very long where the individualism or the the individual gain rather than community focus has has been the way at least in the Global North and you see these, these very deep patterns of extraction, consumerism, overindulgence, all of these behaviors have have almost become the cornerstone or the value set that sit at our basic incentives. And you mentioned music earlier and I can't help but think of Burning Man as an example where there's a very different set of values are a very different set of, of simple rules that that community convenes around and there's there's this beautiful ebb and flow Oh, I have, okay, within within these agreements within these very basic and simple rules, we get to create, we get to interact with our, with our changing environment and the art or the the offerings that that others might be gifting in, in that particular economy, or micro economy. So I want to, I want to ask more about in your experience in the collective. Talk to us about the the incentives, or the value set that existed at the core of that. And what were some of those, those skill sets or reflexes that were then unlocked because of, say, a different value set than we're used to now? So when you when you were speaking, and I think it's interesting that you asked that specific question is that, all in all, when was the last festival that we did as a collective was 2017. And when the the final building and creation phase of the festival started, we were probably four weeks ahead of the festival, we were there. And then two weeks after, and the five days of the festival, and during that time, like you said, it is a microcosm, and it's it's so interesting. I mean, this is the probably the most beautiful experience I personally had in my life. And during this experience, we didn't need any money. We didn't, I didn't have my wallet for eight weeks. And I didn't need to pay for anything, except for when we left that microcosm and went to some place where we needed to buy tools or resources or anything like that. But we were in this microcosm where everybody was just enjoying what they did, and building out of that come out of that love out of that mode, right. And so, because of this, the more people came to this festival side, they entered into this loving Space of Creation of creativity and empowerment, because we had principles where it's about everybody is able to do everything. We're not we didn't we had hierarchies, we tried them try to have them as kind of like, equally or equally distributed as possible. But information power or whatever you want to call it, is they are so we were aware that it's it's not possible to have no hierarchy or to have like a completely fill out here, or Cuba to at least give all the people the chance to participate and do whenever they wanted to do something. So you're in this completely self organized space where more and more people come in, because the festival is coming closer and closer. And at some point festival guests are coming. But because our principles were that it was more of a we create this together then service industry. So even though people purchased tickets, they knew that there was going to be work to be done and that they participated and that they helped out and that food and drinks were given for donation on a Donations base. So the whole system was so foreign to a large group of people who had never experienced anything like that. Yet, at the same time, being enough people who held that space, that the newcomers who had never experienced that were kind of like, gently taught or gently kind of like introduced into such a foreign space in a sense, you know, and so I still remember my brother who always heard of this collective but had never been part of any parties in Cologne because he was living somewhere else. And when he after the first evening came to me His mind was blown. He said, Dude, I had no idea that what's going on here? I've never seen anything like this. And that's that's what I feel is the beauty of these concepts that it is difficult for for people who are have never experienced anything like that to imagine it because it's, I would say impossible. But once they experience it, they see they're just like mesmerized and they feel like this is this is unknown. I've I never knew this was possible. You know, and this is just what I wanted to share. What maybe I went a little bit off that back from your question, but the principles are probably found in equal rights, you know, love, love what you do. Everybody is invited to participate in create, make mistakes. And, yeah, so yeah, that's amazing. It's, I think sometimes when, when we don't have a mental construct, or we've never seen that example, it can be really hard to fathom or to imagine into what these different spheres might might be. But especially in a festival scene, or this microcosm of different values that you're describing. There's something happening on an embodied level, it sounds like as well, where it's almost like being children again, right, where we get to, we get to witness another person showing up differently, showing up interacting with others in a different way, moving from a different set of, of incentives. And getting to emulate that as a form of, of learning. So what I love about this microcosm of the collective you're describing and the the events or experiences that that you put on is that it's almost like a form of play, to to get to come back to our infancy in this completely new construct, as newcomers, to get to experience a different way of being in community a different way a value exchange, a different way of offering our gifts. And I almost think you can, you can explain with words or through mental constructs till the cows come home to someone who's never experienced this. But there's nothing like getting inside of that experience and having your body pick up on all of those millions of signals and observations and have that aha moment of, oh my gosh, this is it's blowing my mind. But on a heart level, on a on an embody level I'm getting, how different this is. And now you have access to those other those other constructs. So I actually love this form of piloting in this way, like this microcosm is such a test of, of a non monetary system, for example. And I'm curious within that setting, what what behaviors right, because most of us, unless unless we've been in a festival setting like this, we've never experienced life outside of a monetary system, most of us, so when you're in that setting, what are some of the behaviors that you noticed? And what did you experience in yourself what was coming online for you as a human being inside of this very different construct? So I would say I have or the group that did the majority of the planning and the whole, the whole structure, I would say we had a special function, or a special kind of like, maybe real, just, it is difficult to explain, because we were outside a little bit of that festival. We weren't guests per se, but to the work that we had done, and through the good organization and everything that came together, we were more guests, and we would have imagined we were able to be so I thought I would be just like running from one task to the other and having no no time to just be there and experience it. But what I heard from some people is that some people used or abused the system of donating by just not doing it by giving little if you have a recommendation, this food costs around maybe let's say just for the sake of argument $5 And somebody sees that and kind of like tests how hard with how little can I get away, can I give one can I give 50 cent or whatever I that so I think there are ways when people people are experiencing such a thing for the first time. It is important to educate in a sense, but also to accept that you know, it is a recommendation. It's not mandatory. So if you For whatever reason, maybe you don't have any money. Maybe you're How do you say that if you're kind of like holding on to money, and stingy is, is the word that I was looking for if you're stingy, and you're just like not giving. So it is whatever the reason, your mental state is still contracted, in a sense, maybe you have money in that system. But you're kind of like, your self image, lets you act in a way that is just like not in line with the festival. So it doesn't matter. You know, and I think we didn't really judge it. In the end, it was important that we, that we broke, even which we didn't, we had a great loss in a sense, and had to go through pains of refinancing and doing a lot of work to do that. But that is what you talked about it is failing, at some point, we had this, this beautiful experience that was carried by love and all these positive things. But there were undersides, there were negative consequences of having tried something like this. And so I would say, for people who are in this, in this context, experiencing something like that, for the first time, my personal rule of thumb is we need a two thirds 1/3 balance, we need two thirds of the people who hold that space. So know that space, create that space, were able to see the system and understand the system and are feeding that system with our positive energy. And then we will have a certain amount of people who are carried by that, who want to be carried by that and several others who use and abuse that system. But I think, at least in my experience, if we have a certain ratio, then the whole system or the whole event in our in our understanding was able to carry that to some extent, you know, if it drops below a certain balance, then the other state of mind takes over and then it's What can I get out of it. And that's when the whole kind of that's at the heart of gentrification, what I think at some point when lively neighborhoods that are very artsy, very cultural, very, very much alive, when people are forced because they can't afford the the rates anymore for the apartments or whatever, or the stores, then at some point that aliveness is lost. And I would say, that is something that we just have to be mindful about, you know, it's neither good nor bad, it's just like, we have to steer that as leaders as organizations, we have to know, at some point, our organizational culture will drop into the other kind of, like extreme when we don't have an eye on that. Right. Right. There's, there's a piece here that I just love about it feels so caring, actually, in what you're saying, to keep a pulse on these these people, these communities, the the newcomers, and there's a level of care that I hear in what you're saying around, at least in the festival setting, taking someone sort of under your wing, and as long as that ratio is there, then you can have this this inculturation process in a way of, of unlearning some of the the impulses or the the beliefs, the previous relational patterns that might have been your norm and in the examples you mentioned, sometimes that can show up as a taking mentality as an extractive pattern of how much can I get away with how much can I get for free here and have that still be okay. And I think a lot of this has to do with the the previous patterning and our relationship to some money and colonial ways of thinking. And so if we can allow for enough process time and a pathway where the the existing community is who's already embodying the the new way or the different way can can help the the newcomers unlearn all of that and begin to experience or replace it with with a different way of seeing things or a different relationship to money to move from a transactional exchange to where you're taking or or extracting into something that's more reciprocal and life generating and very gentle Interest actually like to unlock this, this flow of resources across people, it's I'm very, I'm very hopeful that we, that we can get there. And maybe there are always people who, who will take advantage of the system as, as you mentioned, or fall back into that extractive colonial way of being. But I think if we, if we hit a point where the majority, the majority of a community is embodying a non extractive relationship, and a non colonial programming as as the operating system that we hold, that, that maybe there are ways that we could, could point out those behaviors or invite you know, call people in, right to a different to a different way and, and sort of lovingly prevent the taking advantage of over time, and maybe there are consequences or boundaries that get enforced when when people can't, but that that unlearning piece in, in what you're mentioning and keeping an eye on another person's process feels so caring to me and not in the, in the other example that you that you mentioned with gentrification, like not not mistaking aliveness in a community for for something else, if it if it isn't, producing the value that we as the colonial thinkers want to generate from that community, or the value that we specifically want to extract from it. To understand that we're looking at a community through that mindset of, of this, this town is a thing, these people are things that that will move around or reconstruct, it's it's such a, it's a messed up way of seeing the world very mechanistic, in a way very transactional. But how can we unlearn that through playing in these spaces of non monetary exchange of festivals, music, art, it's a very safe place to learn, I feel and I think we need more of these containers, to learn and be able to make mistakes and, and maybe we do take advantage in a moment. And then we reflect on that and think, Oh, well that that didn't actually feel good. What what made me do that, like have have that self reflective quality? So yeah, so I'll I'll stop there and see what comes up on on your end. But yeah, it's it's a beautiful picture that you're painting as a possibility for for prototyping these things. Yeah, I think, as you mentioned, it is I think, the, the the possibility to make mistakes that we won't like I'm looking at this through the eyes or through the lens of an entrepreneur but also someone who's an innovator or a Creator as an artist to to know that we we might not be able to figure this out in our first attempt not only because not only but we might have the right intentions but that doesn't guarantee success in the sense that we will figure it out right away. And so I feel like looking at my experiences and at the at the negative sides of our collective and in the end the the shattering process of how it all came to an end and why is a big learning witch where I feel like are we doomed even though we create these we create these beautiful bubbles in a sense or utopian visions and in the end we fall short and we make mistakes and and the people outside so well I could have told you this before that it doesn't work you know, but we we gained something and so I feel like Wayne Dyer I'm sorry if I come in with so many spiritual teachers today when Wayne Dyer has said inch by inch where we're making progress you know, so slowly but where it gets like it is every century, just a little bit further I don't know if we if we can see it that way that we have a limited amount of time but I feel like we're doing our best as a as a society. And everybody does their best anyways and some people it just comes out differently. And so to just be able to make mistakes and to learn from these mistakes get up again, you know, this, this, this approach of making it right, in the first attempt, or at making it right into the, in general like is my, my, my, my inner revision is that at some point point I haven't made, I'm done, I don't have to learn any more no mistakes, everything is like enlightenment, right? And then coming back to that to that quote again. But what happens after that we still have to chop wood and carry water. So there is no end that infinity of evolution that process is ongoing, like until life on this planet exists, there will be this kind of process of trial and error and just like standing up again, trying something new, learning from that, and then building the next or carving the next stepping stone, whatever we want to call it. And so I feel that is probably the most important thing to just know, we will fail at some point in some extent. But that is not the problem it is are we going to get up learn from that and kind of like do it in a way where we share that human element of love, compassion, and this kind of like brotherhood sisterhood, whatever you want to call it, that family here, the human family on this planet, you know, I'm might be a little bit soft with this. But I feel really we are we are one one big family and there is no reason to treat each other the way we do you know, and at some point, it would be nice, it would be nice if we find a way to actually live together nicely, you know, we can have arguments, nobody says it's going to be boring. There's just like peace and eternal bliss. But it is a different question of how we resolve these arguments and how we, how we interact with each other and the planet? Absolutely, absolutely. I love the the language around being one big family and I too am very hopeful that we can we can find loving ways to interact with one another. And I feel like as as entrepreneurs, this relationship to failure and sort of rebranding it if you will, as this is, this is very much a part of our evolution we were as humans, we're always going to be trying and failing and learning really, I mean, we were as a species, we are exceptional, really at at learning through our ability to self reflect and to to make subtle tweaks to the the nuances of how we show up and how we how we try the next time. But there's there's a lot of appreciation in in what you're saying around and let's not forget the the realism that exists alongside or underneath the utopian or idealistic view of what's possible because at the end of the day, we we still have bodies we still have homes to care for and clean and build and there's there's a simplicity in fact, in the, in the care that we get to have, even in the mundane and bring, bring that consciousness through and I think to to live in a world that's only in that blissed out joyful state, you don't actually appreciate it if you don't also have the duality of the, of the suffering and of of some of the difficulty that that life might present. So yeah, it's an interesting thing that that polarity creates. And I feel like it's it comes down to how we choose to relate to suffering, how we relate to failure, or how we relate to doing the hard things because these conversations that we have with one another in conflict will will always be hard and being vulnerable is hard in a lot of ways. So there's there's something about our humaneness in in what you're saying that I'm I'm appreciating and the the granularity of let's not let's not get whisked away in the idealism here and the the utopianism because there's there's a very real thing happening in the physical plane. So I would love to actually go there next and into some of that. That practicality piece you mentioned earlier about still having hierarchy for example, to be able to make decision wins. And I imagine that there was so much work and physical labor, let alone the emotional labor that would have gone into the creation of, of the festival. So I guess, what are on that practical level? What What have you seen work really well, in terms of how we relate to, to that work? What has maybe worked for, for you as a person? I'm curious about the about the granularity and the nuance that you've seen, I think what what worked well, in a sense, and I think I have to put the context of the hierarchy into a little bit more perspective that the in, in the event of, or in the, in the work that we did, there was meant to be no hierarchy or hierarchy. But because people are people and decide, I just want to do this a little bit, I want to invest maybe a little bit of time each month. And there are people who say I'm all in I want to I want everything I want the whole experience, I want to be part in every kind of like subgroup and I want to know what's going on. And I'm interested in this whole experience, that alone creates the difference in hierarchical structures, because some people know more than others, just because they are involved more. And so that as as a context for what I meant with a hierarchy. Other than that we had, we didn't have the strictest form of organization where it is everybody has to say yes. And if somebody says, I'm not on board, then we have to renegotiate, I don't know what the term for that in English as. But we didn't have that we went on a on a veto based system where as long as nobody was giving a veto, saying no, that I'm not on board with this, I'm not supporting this in this way, this is not a way for me to go forward, then it would be renegotiated. But as long as somebody said, Well, I'm not I'm not really a fan of this decision, but I'm okay to go along, then we would just go along as a as a community. And as you mentioned, it is it is much more complex and effort for to sit there with 40 people, and to discuss how we go forward and to resolve all these issues that people have. And I remember that we in I was living in a communal kind of like apartment with seven people. And we were all more or less involved into this organization. And the sister of my friend came and she said, you're always discussing so much are constantly kind of like discussing things and talking about stuff. And I'm not used to that that's like that feels like so, so much effort in life, you know, to constantly discuss and smooth things out through words. Right. And so I think that is that is one thing that is a little bit strenuous, maybe that the larger the group gets said, we have to find ways to be to be to make this sustainable and to make this efficient. And at some point, we can just discuss it all out. And everybody has the same right to decide what's going on and splitting groups into smaller sections and creating some hierarchy that is necessary in order to save time, because we can talk two days, like 10 hours every day, in order to get to the next step, we need to have some pre decisions made we need to delegate and so I think that it is that that motivation or the intrinsic aspiration to have no hierarchy as a as a group that we had or to have as little as possible and to go from there and then to find find ways to create a subsystem that works with our morale extend or moral views or whatever standards that we that we set up, you know, and so it is but everything like always, I just maybe a short excursion I wanted I spent two days, two years without a cell phone. And that was a long time ago, but it was creating a lot of work for me to find solutions to problems that people with cell phones didn't have you know, so if we have certain standards or certain aspects assumes that we want to do certain things differently than the status quo, then we have to be ready to, to do more work because it will be. Yeah, yeah, it's I couldn't agree more, I think I think within authentic relating, or this is not consensus based, but this we're we're going to churn through a lot of data and discussion, and there's veto power within that it does take a lot of, of relational input or relational energy, it takes a lot of emotional input, essentially. And, yeah, I think, I think when when I think about the the benefits of this, though, I can't help but feel like a lot of that. A lot of that is probably worth it, especially in the beginning. Because I think, I think sometimes to your point, there's a tendency to want to swing really hard the other way, if we are in aversion to the hierarchy, because the hierarchy like we blame it, we think it has hurt us, we think it's the source of a lot of our problems. Now, we might want to completely make that obsolete and swing really hard into the other direction of a more flat, consensus based decision making set. But I think, I think in reality, the, the balance or the harmony often lies in the middle and more of the integration and what I love what you I love what you said about subgroups, basically, where it's, maybe there's some sort of hybrid here, where you have, you have more decentralized branches of of decision making on specific things. But there's also there's also this element of what of what you're saying, in maybe the people who hold the most quote, unquote, power, for decision making within the hierarchies. It's not based on positional power, it's not based on their skin color, it's it's based on, that's the person with the experience and the knowledge and who is embodying these values best. And so, so let us let us run the decisions up that hierarchy to the to the best fit for all of that, and and to do that, in these, these subgroups are localized pockets that can then self manage based on the experience and the wisdom that's in the system and not some of these more biased or perverse ways of structuring hierarchy. So it's like, I'm just hearing so loud and clear in what you're saying that the hierarchy itself is not is not bad, but the design principles we've maybe used within hierarchy are, can be harmful. So what's the what's the new set of of how we use that? And again, I feel that that maybe the maybe the solution is somewhere in the middle? And I think that's kind of what we're what we're learning into, as well. So does I guess, does that match the experience that that you've had? I think from from what I heard you saying that the the hierarchy itself is probably more can more be seen for people who hear this discussion as an informal kind of hierarchy or an informer kind of leadership, it is not actually a position where people would be like perceived in that in that position, or where they would get more more decision making power, they would just have to step up with their with their knowledge and share that and say, think about this, because we are doing this, this and that and then to kind of like delegate it back to the group to be really responsible in this leadership position. To still know that I might be the only person who has this general overview but I'm, this doesn't make me the person who makes the decision. This makes me the, the counterpart or the person who just relays the information and what other people need to know in order to to make a decision that is more appropriate to be made in this sentence. I just wanted to maybe clarify that a little bit. And the question I think about about that model is just I think it is group intelligence to be honest when you were speaking and when when I was listening to to to your to your encapsulation of what you heard, I feel like it is a it is probably a trust and a confidence in the collective mind, in the group process to be able to trust well, maybe this is not my decision, per se, I would be going a different route. But because of the way we came to the conclusion, I trust in the process that this will be the right decision. And at the same time, I even if I wanted to, I could not recreate the festival and I was among those people who were really, really deep deep into the organization. Realizing that we, it was only possible for and for us to create such an outstanding experience for all people involved because of everyone who was part of it. And every, every kind of like, individual that created that, that collective consciousness or that creative, creative mindset together. And I think that is an important thing to trust in that we don't have to all be experts, it is it is enough, if we come together, if our intentions are aligned in the sense that we all know what we know. And we all know the destination where we want to go, then with that intention set, it is possible to create the most magnificent, magnificent things, because we're coming together as a as a group. And the synergy is there. You know, I think that is one of the things that is really important to understand that when I would bring something up in the beginning of my of my work in this collective 2013, I would say something wrong and quotation. And I would feel bad because I, I earned a position and some people were maybe arguing and the I want it to be the person who says something smart or something that is is bringing us to that solution after problem. I don't want to be the person who everybody says no, we're not doing that. But I realized over the years that these oppose the opposition is, is oftentimes a vital part of that solution, finding that where the group realizes No, this is actually quite the opposite of what we want, by realizing that being able to formulate what we want, and then to find a better solution. So at some point I eased into, well, maybe this is something that the group doesn't want to hear. But it is something that needs to be said and to trust in that process. It might not bring us to the solution directly, but it might be able to bring us around to the solution, you know, right? The the trust, the trust, even in the opposition is so is so nurturing in what you're saying. So collective intelligence based on trust. We don't all have to be the experts, as you said that I felt my whole body relaxed and like oh my gosh, yes. Through through positional power, within hierarchies. When if we believe in the illusion that as a leader, we're supposed to know all the answers, that is so much pressure to put on ourselves. And it simply isn't isn't true. We, you know, no single one of us is going to be the expert of all things or have all the answers. So this, this distributed leadership model that you're alluding to, in the distributed wisdom within it and sort of letting, letting that organically show up turning to the person that that has that wisdom, and even an even if you speak to offer a solution that can be really, really powerful as as a prototype, essentially, where now people have something to engage around or to react with. And I think if we as leaders can, can not have the attachment to the reaction that that the collective intelligence then has, and not make ourselves bad. If you're wrong, if the the response from the collective intelligence is a no, can we let can we be okay with a no and not make a story about ourselves for being wrong? So it's Yeah, I think I think this is maybe a really beautiful place to begin to wrap up our conversation of, of the potential of of collective intelligence within within groups and that so much of that can be built on trust and I I've heard I've heard a few people say this now so I'm glad that it's becoming a bit of a rallying a rallying tagline in a way of of the The currency of the future is trust. Rather than money, the currency of the future is trust and an eye. I relax into that as well. Especially as we fight for a world that is that is more transparent and where we see through a lot of the the opacity or the the masks that that people will wear to try and control, extract manipulate whatever, whatever it might be. So I'm curious Martin, could you? Could you perhaps leave us with any wisdom on your experience of trust in in these communities? Trust in the communities or trust per se, that is a? I don't know, it's probably at this at this point where I'm at right now. It's probably both, you know, so I feel going back to what we spoke about the finding the glass half full, or seeing the glass half full, that it is always our opportunity to open our hearts and stay open in our hearts. And Michael singer said that if you don't, I think I have to paraphrase because it's been a long time since I read his book. But you stay open by not closing your heart, I think so by by staying open. Using whatever, like whatever happens to us and whenever we're disappointed when I'm sad, angry, all the all the negative and quotation, emotions, looking using self reflection and seeing what where am I where am I holding on as in the in the I want to be the leader who, who makes remarks that are smart, and bringing solutions, letting go of that principle and seeing well there is value in, in what I said even though I thought it's, it's it's bad, you know, and so I feel like when we're able to stay open and to like inspect our emotional landscape, especially when it's negative, but also when it's positive and to stop, kind of like holding on to that we build trust mostly in ourselves, that whatever comes my way, I will be able to, to see the beauty in that and to forgive myself and others for whatever experiences that I make. And to trust in that no matter what happens. We will find a way we will be we will be like we were it was so adaptable. You know, we're it's such a adaptable species. If we if we're able to make the next step in the evolution and kind of like, put our ego in its right place not to kind of like just solidified or bring it into like non existence, but to to just use our mind rather than our mind using us. And I think we're really set set for the future, you know, so I don't know I love the quote of the mind is a beautiful servant, but a cruel master, you know, so in a sense, to just really trust trust in the process. You know, that's probably that's probably it. Amazing. Yeah. I love I love that quote, as well. Yeah. Martin, thank you so much. And thank you for leaving us with this. This sentiment around trust within as well and our ability to, to nurture that to be self responsible enough to, to form that relationship within ourselves that we can that we can trust ourselves to do anything to adapt and to, to pick ourselves up even when when things get hard. So thank you for for bringing us to this this lovely, final note in our conversation and it has been such a joy to traverse these topics with you. Thank you so much for your wisdom and your presence today. Thank you