54 Beyond the Facade: Humanising Leadership with Gerardo Segat

Welcome back to The Knowing Self Knowing Others Podcast! In this episode, our host Nia Thomas is joined by the insightful and inspiring Gerardo Segat, an international leadership coach who shares his journey from trauma to triumph and his mission to humanize leadership.

Gerardo is an accomplished professional who specializes in international tax, asset management, and legal services. He initially defined success by external measures such as big buildings, large groups, and financial wealth, driven by societal messages. However, upon achieving these goals, Gerardo realized that true success meant something more personal and fulfilling. He has since redefined his definition of success and continues to excel in his career while staying true to his own values and aspirations.

Gerardo delves into the power of vulnerability, the interconnectedness of fears and inner treasures, and the importance of self-awareness in leadership. He also introduces his thought-provoking performing arts show, Act as Humans, designed to provide psychological safety to leaders.

Join Nia and Gerardo as they explore the essence of authentic and humane leadership. Get ready to gain valuable insights and practical strategies for developing self-awareness and bringing humanity into the core of leadership.

Stay tuned for an enriching and thought-provoking conversation!

Access Gerardo's website here

Transcript

Nia Thomas [00:00:00]:
Hello and welcome to the Knowing Self, Knowing Others podcast where we discuss self aware leadership with thinkers from around the globe. I'm your host, Nia Thomas, and join me as

Nia Thomas [00:00:09]:
I talk to today's guest. I'm joined by Gerardo Segat today, who is an international leadership coach whose purpose and legacy is to humanize leadership. Following a wealth of experiences as an entrepreneur, a chair, and a CEO, Gerardo has used his leadership background to create Preludes, which is a coaching program created to humanize leaders, organizations, and their stakeholders through creative and powerful organizational experiences. Gerardo is also the creator of the debate, which is a formal and format of decision making debate. He also created Leader in the Mirror, which is a format of interview, and leadiness, which is a postgraduate training program. Lots of different titles there. And and just be before we came on edge, Gerard, they were telling me that creating names for his program is something that he really enjoys doing. For the past decade, he has been a member of YPO, which is Young Presidents' Organization, and it's the world's largest community of leaders and CEOs.

Nia Thomas [00:01:17]:
He's the founder of 3 of these chapters in Italy, Switzerland, and globally. Currently, Gerardo is working on Out as Humans, which is a performing arts show designed to humanize authentic leaders. Wow. Gerardo, it's lovely to have you here.

Gerardo [00:01:35]:
Hi, Nia. Thank you for having me. It was a pleasure.

Nia Thomas [00:01:38]:
So tell us about your journey from being an entrepreneur and a CEO to to becoming an international leadership coach. Tell us about all about that journey.

Gerardo [00:01:48]:
Well, I'm I'm gonna start a little bit just when I was kind of younger because I think that has impacted, whatever has happened. I I am one of those guys who has chosen a direction that did not belong necessarily to me because of live events. My dad died when I was 6, and then my mother got ill when I was 13. Myself and my brother and my sister, we had to kind of handle everything in the house, even finances at the age of 13. And, then my mom died when I was 15.

Nia Thomas [00:02:26]:
Wow.

Gerardo [00:02:27]:
And so I was left, you know, without parents, with very little money. And I, you know, kind of because of that, because of these kind of traumatic events in life, then I built this desire of becoming a successful person. Okay? Okay. And, specifically, a successful entrepreneur because my dad was an entrepreneur.

Nia Thomas [00:02:54]:
Oh, okay.

Gerardo [00:02:54]:
I kind of had this in my blood. So at that time, the first need was to really earn the money to pay for my education. So I started organizing parties in clubs in Milan. I lived in Milan in Italy. And, with the money I earned, I paid for my education.

Nia Thomas [00:03:14]:
Okay.

Gerardo [00:03:14]:
And, I, you know so during my university, I spent a year in Paris. I kind of fall in love with international tax, so I decided to go that direction, and I moved to London started working for an international, law firm. And at the age of 29, then I started my own small practice in a small service office in New York's Australia London, myself and the secretary. And and that's, then, you know, gradually became a a multifamily office with 400 people, 10 offices around the world

Nia Thomas [00:03:58]:
Wow.

Gerardo [00:03:59]:
Providing not only international tax, but asset management, etcetera. Legal services, so on. But to me, success means, well, at that time meant external success. I mean, you know, big size, big building, a big group, lots of people, lots of offices, money, you know, all of that because this is the kind of message that I was getting, you know, not from my parents, unfortunately, but, you know, from provision, from people, from school, from from anywhere. You know? And yeah. So when I actually reached that, I I kind of ask myself, okay. You know? Nice. Thank you very much.

Gerardo [00:04:51]:
But but I I was missing something, and and not only what's next. You know? But, also, I don't know. I just felt empty a little bit. You know? Mhmm. Meaningless. And so I exited in 2016. I exited my business and requalified as a coach. I when I exited my business, I didn't actually know what I was gonna do.

Gerardo [00:05:16]:
I knew I I wanted to change. And, so, I requalified as a coach, and since 2016, I've been working as, an international leadership coach for the purpose of humanizing. I knew I wanted to have more humanity in my professional life. And so this is where I decided to go. I spent, you know, the last decade in this beautiful community of YPO that is the world's largest community of CEO, 35,000 members in 140 countries. And the rest, you know, from from my bio that you just read. Certainly, one of the things that I like is learning by creating. So I created all these different things that you mentioned before.

Nia Thomas [00:06:10]:
Wow. What a journey from very traumatic beginning as a as a child to quite successful, in your adult life. That is is quite a journey and listeners may already be aware that my background is in the public sector and the charitable sector, particularly working with children and families and having experience of children who have traumatic childhoods and how they then live their lives as young people and adults. That is something quite remarkable to hear that you made that transition. So, wow, that's really impressive to hear. Tell us about humanizing. What does that mean?

Gerardo [00:06:51]:
So when I say humanizing leadership, what I mean is that any leader okay? I want to make sure that any leader who walks out of the door of his house brings his human being or her human being with them, okay, and doesn't forget it at home in bed. Okay? That's because I see that often leaders are confronted with fears, and the way that this is somehow handled is, you know, I'm gonna leave the human being with fears at home, and I'm gonna be a leader outside, wear a mask, an ice mask, and go out in the world and be a leader and fill the world with some kind of harmful defensive behavior, screaming, shouting, ignoring, blaming, postponing, judging, whatever, you know, you mentioned as a reaction of those fears. So the work that for me, humanizing leadership means keeping the leader being inside the, connected with the human being so that decisions are humanized, so that interactions are humanized, so that, you know, everything is humanized. Everything that the leading staff is humanizing, and therefore, organizations are humanized.

Nia Thomas [00:08:18]:
Interesting. A couple of my podcast guests have talked about this idea. And more recently, I spoke to Lynn Turner who gave an example of the National Health Service and how it's changed from command and control, and we are seeing more humanization within the leadership programs. And she talks about how as you move up the career ladder, we dehumanize language. Instead of talking about people and patients, we talk about numbers and throughput. Have you seen a change over the the time that you've been working as an entrepreneur and with other stakeholders to now being a coach that there has been an evidential shift towards more care, more authenticity, more humanization. Is that something you're already starting to see?

Gerardo [00:09:10]:
Well, I I can answer that question, bringing my experience as a coach and my experience as a member of YPO. Mhmm. Okay. So as a member of the largest community of CEO in the world. Okay. So in my professional experience, I have seen, deep authenticity and human connection. One of the experiences of my coaching program is a speech that I gave to board of directors about vulnerability.

Nia Thomas [00:09:40]:
Mhmm.

Gerardo [00:09:41]:
And in during the speech, half an hour, I, you know, just share information about that. And half an hour, I should share my my, most Internet fragility, and I ask people to share theirs. And, surprisingly, just after half an hour, people share incredible traumas and credible situations, you know, like disorders that they have, sexual violence, you know, things like this. And many times, it ends up people crying. You know? People crying, asking each other. So this is a message I want to give. You know? It seems one of the most difficult things to do. The reality is it can be also one of the easiest things to do, and that's because people crave to find themselves into situation where they can open up.

Nia Thomas [00:10:34]:
Mhmm.

Gerardo [00:10:34]:
People, any anyone at any level, you know, they just crave to find themselves into those scenarios where they can open up. And, you know, yes, they might be blocked by fears, and, yes, people might have different attitudes from some people might be easier, for other people might be more difficult, but it doesn't matter. Because people crave, it means that once you started, then it is very much contagious. You know? So if you lead by example and you are vulnerable, you are human, then people around you will be the same. That's my experience. As a member of YPO, I can tell you this. You know, YPO, 35,000 CEOs, 140 countries. Question, what is the the service? Whatever you find in YPO.

Gerardo [00:11:32]:
The first reason for membership in YPO. And the the answer is what they call forum. Forum is a format of monthly meeting where 6, 7, 8, 9 from 6 to 10 CEO meet on a regular basis, and they share info updates about their personal and professional life. When they share emotions. They share, you know, their vulnerability. They ask camp. They cry. You know, they do all these things.

Gerardo [00:12:06]:
Okay? That's the number one reason for membership in the world's largest community of CEOs. So that is where the work is going.

Nia Thomas [00:12:19]:
I was just thinking that during COVID, that really prevented that connection, but the digital explosion also created different kind of connections where people could set up those 6 to 8 people together right around the globe. You didn't necessarily have to worry about, can I find 6 or 7 people near me to have those kind of relationships? It opened up a whole new avenue of creating a forum, I guess. Is that something that you were part of, that digital explosion, to create that connection?

Gerardo [00:12:54]:
Yes. Absolutely. And, you know, I was not reluctant. No. I had a I know I had a a little bit of resistance. I I said, you know, the the well, I was convinced that the digital way wouldn't be necessarily warm, wouldn't be necessarily profound, wouldn't be necessarily. But the reality is it's exactly the same thing. You know? 2 people connect.

Gerardo [00:13:22]:
2, 3, 4, 5 people. 10, 100 people connect. You know, it's it's not the tool that you use, but it's what you say, you know, how you move or what it's something else that really can make people connect.

Nia Thomas [00:13:40]:
Yeah. Yeah. I think I agree with you. So tell us, you've mentioned a little bit about some programs that you've developed. You you've talked about prelude and organization events like the extraordinary individuals and out as humans. But how do all of these things really influence humanization within that leadership that you're looking for?

Gerardo [00:14:03]:
Okay. I started creating this program after I, you know, kind of did an exercise myself and and then started, you know, doing the same exercise, proposing the same exercise to clients and people around the network. And the exercise is I I actually looked at my harmful behaviors. You know, this shouting, ignoring, wearing mask, blaming, etcetera. And I started asking myself, okay. Why why this? Why this behavior? Okay. And, obviously, I came to fears. But even when I came to fears, I, you know, I wanted to get to the ultimate fears.

Gerardo [00:14:51]:
Okay? The ultimate cause of this behavior. So I continue to ask myself why, why, why? And I've ended up with 4 ultimate fears.

Nia Thomas [00:15:02]:
Okay.

Gerardo [00:15:03]:
So those 4 ultimate fees that then are the the cause, of, those behaviors and those intermediate fears, if you want. So those fears that for ultimate fears are fear of no meaning. So no meaning in what you do or who you are. Fear of loneliness. So fear of feeling lonely or ending up alone in the future. Fear of dependency from something or somebody.

Nia Thomas [00:15:38]:
Mhmm.

Gerardo [00:15:39]:
And fear of uncertainty.

Nia Thomas [00:15:41]:
Okay.

Gerardo [00:15:41]:
So those 4 fears seem somehow determine cause all the different behaviors. Okay?

Nia Thomas [00:15:52]:
So let me let me recap those. So it was fear of no meaning, loneliness, dependence, and the 4th was

Gerardo [00:16:01]:
Uncertainty. Uncertainty.

Nia Thomas [00:16:04]:
The 2 in the middle feel very connected, and it almost feels like and unless you find the midpoint between those 2, it's almost like a a spectrum from one end to the other?

Gerardo [00:16:17]:
Well, yes. The reality I mean, it is interesting what you say. I mean, there are some differences. I mean, dependence doesn't necessarily mean from somebody. It can be also from something. Okay?

Nia Thomas [00:16:30]:
Yes.

Gerardo [00:16:31]:
Whatever it is. I I don't wanna get into, you know, dependence from some kind of disorders, like, you know, drugs or whatever. But it can be dependence from a a gesture. Dependence of from anything. So now okay? But I also to be honest, I even think that not only the 2 of them have interrelations, but the 4 of them Mhmm. Have interrelations. Anyway, those I happen to see that also doing this exercise with other people. You know, the those are the recurring fears of a leader.

Gerardo [00:17:07]:
Okay? So what I did, I said, okay. Let's simply flip them, okay, to and to find that what I call the inner treasures of a leader. Okay? So flipping, no meaning. You flip it into meaning. Let's flip it into a positive. You know? So I came to I came to meaning, love, freedom, and certainty. Okay?

Nia Thomas [00:17:36]:
I see. Okay.

Gerardo [00:17:38]:
So inner love, inner freedom, inner meaning, and inner certainty. Those to me are the 4 inner treasures of a leader. Okay? And when you get to that, which you will never get because it's a continuous,

Nia Thomas [00:17:57]:
but Yep. Yep.

Gerardo [00:17:58]:
You know, when at least when you start chasing them, when you start looking for them, when when those you set those as objectives, you start feeling less fearful.

Nia Thomas [00:18:11]:
Yep. I can see

Gerardo [00:18:12]:
that. So less harmful behaviors and so more authentic, less need of masks, more open, more cohesion, more trust, more more humanized. Okay? So what preludes, going back to your question, how the coaching program, the show, whatever the every whatever I I've created, how does it impact you guys? It impacts in that way. So it it tends to make it invites people to go inner, look look for those 4 treasures, and therefore, gradually release those fears. You know, get rid of those fears, and feel free to be who they truly are.

Nia Thomas [00:19:05]:
Which leads us very nicely into a conversation about self awareness because for me, all of those things that you have described, without self awareness, you can't work out what those things are for you. So what does self awareness mean for you? If you have to define it or describe it, how would you do that?

Gerardo [00:19:25]:
Watch your movie at the cinema.

Nia Thomas [00:19:28]:
Okay.

Gerardo [00:19:30]:
So this is this is how I would describe it. You know? So think about when you go and watch a movie in a cinema, you forget your phone zone, and everything else is kind of dark around and you see the screen. And the way that you look and live and are into the movie, you are emotionally kind of involved, but you look, there is a distance. There is observation. There is whilst you watch, there is very little judgment. There is no intervention. To me, this is self awareness. Is it looking at you like if you were watching a movie in a cinema?

Nia Thomas [00:20:11]:
Oh, I like that. Nobody has explained it in that that way, but that that you're right. The way you describe that that very focused focus. And listeners, if you're listening on, Spotify or or Apple Podcasts or any other podcast player, you won't see us doing the hand gestures. But if you nip over to YouTube, you'll probably see us doing it. It's about the focus, isn't it? That little screen that's in front of you, and and you can almost blank out everything else so that you have that focus and are able to concentrate. I like that idea. You talk about self awareness being the strongest skill of a leader.

Nia Thomas [00:20:45]:
Why do you say it's the strongest skill? Because you've already talked to us about 4 other things that leaders need to really focus on. But why is self awareness the strongest skill?

Gerardo [00:20:55]:
Well, I I think having said that those are the 4 inner treasures correctly, as you said, the starting point is self awareness. You can't even start to look for this if there's no self awareness. It's consciousness, knowledge, awareness of yourself. Maybe not necessarily strongest. I think it is the most important skill. And and if I look at the future, it is definitely the most important skill from my point of view. Yeah. The most important leadership skills.

Gerardo [00:21:29]:
And I'm gonna tell you a little thing here, a little funny thing, but, you know, somehow, I think it's nice. You know, recently, a friend of mine asked that Chargebee team, what will be the kind of intelligences, human intelligences, for that will be least likely for AI to surpass humans.

Nia Thomas [00:21:52]:
Okay. Yep.

Gerardo [00:21:53]:
And he asked that to to Chargebee. Okay? So the answer from Chargebee was 5 intelligences. K? Bodilykinesthetic intelligence

Nia Thomas [00:22:07]:
Okay.

Gerardo [00:22:08]:
Naturalistic intelligence, existential intelligence, interpersonal intelligence, and intrapersonal intelligence.

Nia Thomas [00:22:18]:
Yeah. Okay.

Gerardo [00:22:19]:
Now in the definition, 2 or 3 lines. JPT also provided the definition of those 5. In the definition, there is always the word awareness or consciousness. K. So it is, bodily kinesthetic intelligence is awareness of your body, awareness of nature, naturalistic intelligence, awareness of your reason to exist, why do I exist. So, you know, your why, your values, your identity, awareness of others, interpersonal, and intrapersonal is the definition of self awareness. So awareness of your thoughts, obviously, is of your of whatever is white and black inside yourself. And so that's, you know, even no.

Gerardo [00:23:17]:
Not me. It's Judge GPT saying awareness is the leadership skill of the future.

Nia Thomas [00:23:23]:
Oh, wow. I'm very pleased to hear it. Tell us about your thoughts on the strategic level leaders. So it's something that I often ask my guests about whether they they have observed that there is a link or not between self awareness and people who are at the very top of organizations. In your experience, again, as an entrepreneur and as a coach, what are you experiencing out there?

Gerardo [00:23:51]:
Well, I think that there isn't sufficient self awareness on top. That's my experience, and that is, you know instead, it is very important because of that contagious aspect of humanity and, you know, I I for me, self awareness is a human skill.

Nia Thomas [00:24:15]:
Mhmm.

Gerardo [00:24:16]:
And, therefore, also self awareness is very much contagious. I think it will be very crucial that, leaders build self awareness. And, it will be very crucial because then there would be a ripple effect in the organizations and and the communities. I think that is happening somehow because the more we grow up in the in the leadership scale. The more leaders are at the top, the more they forget that they're also followers.

Nia Thomas [00:24:56]:
Mhmm. Okay.

Gerardo [00:24:58]:
And, and that somehow has an effect because, you know, what I see often, for example, is that the humanity that leaders show downwards is much higher than the humanity they show upwards.

Nia Thomas [00:25:21]:
Okay.

Gerardo [00:25:22]:
Okay? So and I give you an example. You probably heard of these beautiful sentence that hangs around the world, which is use business as a force for good. Yep. Okay? Now lots of leaders, lots of people I know, you know, really have this, like, a big tattoo, you know, in the in the head. Use business as a first for good, which is a good thing. You know? But, you know, when things like big conventions happen around the world, like World Economic Forum, COP, whatever, There is often this comment, what are these guy deciding? You know, I have you know, there is no empathy. There is no tolerance. There is no not so much signs of humanity in the way that this leader look at leaders above them.

Gerardo [00:26:20]:
Okay? And for me, this is because they forget that they are also followers. The more they grow, the more their leaders, and the more this makes them forget they are also followers. And then somehow, you know, what they ask or what they try to not ask and all, but, you know, what they're trying to teach, what they're trying to, you know, downwards, and then that somehow they they don't give upwards.

Nia Thomas [00:26:51]:
Okay. There is something about humility there from what you have said. There is something about accepting that you can learn from others, that you can grow from others, and and that every leader has has a boss, and everybody at the top of the organization has somebody else to follow. And I guess it's that cycle of you give out and you get back. But, yeah, interesting thoughts.

Gerardo [00:27:17]:
I think that if we want big change in the world, bottom up, humanity is essential. Yeah. You know? It's essential until we put people who are above us, and judge them. We have little chance of big change.

Nia Thomas [00:27:38]:
You've talked a bit about followers there. Tell me about your thoughts on leaders and followers. And we often talk about leaders, but we don't talk very much about followers as such. What are your thoughts?

Gerardo [00:27:52]:
It's true that we use comment, look, dig into the world leaders, but is a very important, very important word. Mhmm. But the people I normally deal with it and that that are around me tend to forget. I I just I I think that if we've got much more follower, we probably add more chances to bring out our, say, human scales, humanity. And and, yeah, I think it's a it's a kind of a natural thing somehow when you grow and you have those responsibility that you more look downwards rather than look upwards. And, also, you know, dedicate time, attention, learning, and development of us as as followers.

Nia Thomas [00:28:47]:
Interesting that you've said that. The it's a phrase I often use is that as leaders, we look up and out, and as managers, we look down and in. But when you you said the word look up, I've not thought of it in that context, and I might think of it more broadly in the future. But actually, when we're looking up and out, it's it's 2, 360 degrees maybe rather than than that upwards direction that there's up and out that you can think about quite differently. That's interesting.

Gerardo [00:29:17]:
It it has to do also with comfort. I mean, if we are leaders, to look downwards, is more comfortable. Yeah. To look upwards, there's more it's more foggy. It's more there's more uncertainty. There's more so, you know, it's easier. Sometimes even things like use business as a force for good is in reality a comfort zone where we like to end up to because there we know we can do, there we know we can, you know, we know how, what, why, and and, you know, instead that if we get out of it and put the head of the follower and and try to do something up the line, then it's more foggy than we don't know, we don't know what, we don't know if, we don't know. Yeah.

Nia Thomas [00:30:13]:
Yeah. That's an interesting way of thinking about it. Earlier on, you mentioned Act as Humans, which is a performing arts show. Tell me more about that. How how does that fit into leadership and and creating more humanization within leadership?

Gerardo [00:30:29]:
Well, it actually is a powerful experience. It's like a a shot of psychological safety given to leaders. Okay. It's not it's you know, of what I was talking before about the forum. Mhmm. That is forum is like a marketing you get regular on its own. Autonomous is 1 and a half hour powerful shot of psychological safety, of vulnerability, of, you know, opening up. It's a it's a show that combines powerful questioning.

Gerardo [00:31:06]:
So, you know, let's say, coaching, questioning with performing arts, and storytelling.

Nia Thomas [00:31:13]:
Okay.

Gerardo [00:31:14]:
Around around 10 words that express intimate humanity of people. So things like heart, soul, hack, fragility, death, these kind of words.

Nia Thomas [00:31:28]:
Okay.

Gerardo [00:31:29]:
And around those words, so there is a question that is a performing art, and there is some storytelling. And there are some moments of interaction during the show where people share fragilities. They write apology notes to each other. This Is is this is the kind of experience, and the idea is really to allow leaders to open up, be vulnerable, take off their mask, and and experience what it gives them, what it means.

Nia Thomas [00:32:03]:
So is this something that leaders come to, or do leaders play the parts? Or how does it how does it work?

Gerardo [00:32:11]:
It is something it's a private show that gets featured in corporates. So for corporations, organizations, leadership organizations, association conventions. This is how it's it's a private show. It it does not a public calendar, so it doesn't it it gets, featured as a private show for for corporates, organization, conventions, etcetera.

Nia Thomas [00:32:38]:
Oh, how interesting. So if there is anybody listening who wanted to have that show provided to their leadership team, how would they go about getting in touch with you?

Gerardo [00:32:50]:
Just visit my website k. Gerardoseggardot dotcom, and there you find all the information and contacts, the way to contact me, etcetera.

Nia Thomas [00:33:00]:
Brilliant. Listeners and watchers, as you know, the link will be in the show notes for you to connect with Gerardo if you want to. So how might leaders or or budding leaders even develop their self awareness based on your ideas around humanization and leadership?

Gerardo [00:33:18]:
Well, I think I would kind of start from developing awareness, which might be easier than developing self awareness. I mean, developing awareness means awareness of something that is not our self, but is external. You know, something. What we see, what we touch, what we feel, what we smell. That might be, you know, a way to start developing those kind of awareness skill. And the second way, I think, is setting yourself inner objectives and emotional goals. So inner objectives, say, you know, inner meaning, for example. So when you set yourself inner objective, then you somehow, are checking in with yourself, and you need to create and build self awareness.

Gerardo [00:34:14]:
And when I say emotional goals, it's, for example, you know, most of the people that go to a meeting, most of the times, they have factual objectives. So I want to get out of that meeting with a contract sign, with a yes from somebody, with you know? But very rarely, they add emotional objectives. So how would I like to feel at the end of that meeting? Okay? So if you start adding those emotional objectives, you you you you see that it's like your view widens up, and you may do something different in the meeting, or you may do something different in preparation for the meeting. So that's a a second way. 3rd way, I think, you know, awareness, you can't know yourself. You can't be conscious of yourself, and you can't be aware if you are not connected with your human being. You know? People tend to forget this. So a third way is to cultivate connection with your inner human being.

Gerardo [00:35:35]:
Mhmm. Whatever it is, like a book, a movie, even putting together, you know, some words. The words that I mentioned before, you know, soul, fragility, apology, goosebumps, whatever you want, you know, whatever feelings we have. You know? If every day, we have one word that we think about even for 3 minutes, that will make us cultivate that connection so that make sure that the inner being the human being that we have is with us all the time, whatever we go.

Nia Thomas [00:36:14]:
Oh, I really like that. That's something I've not thought about before. I think it it links very well with journaling. So if there's anybody out there that's interested in journaling, picking a word that means something to you and and really exploring it, exploring your thoughts around it. That's really, really interesting. It's it's been a really good conversation. There's been lots of food for thought. And listeners, I I think lots of things that Gerardo has said, you might wanna go to the transcript so that you can read that back.

Nia Thomas [00:36:42]:
You may wanna make notes on it and do some action planning around that because I think there's there are lots of ways that you can really dip into the human that maybe you moved a little bit too far away from to help you get back to that self awareness to to really find your authentic self. Gerardo, it's been really interesting having the conversation with you. Thank you so much. We will indeed make sure that there are links in the show notes for listeners and watchers. Thank you so much for joining me.

Gerardo [00:37:09]:
You're welcome. Thank you for having me.

Nia Thomas [00:37:13]:
Thank you for joining me on today's episode. Please remember to leave a written review on your favorite podcast platform because a little word from you means a big deal to me. You can also sign up for my newsletter on my website, knowing self, knowing others dotco.uk. Join me next week when we discuss self aware leadership with thinkers from around the globe to generate kinder, more respectful, and creative working relationships through reflection, recognition, and regulation. Looking forward to having you on my learning journey.