The Sex Reimagined Podcast

Jennifer Kaylo: Online Dating Tips for Open Relationships

• Leah Piper, Dr. Willow Brown, Jennifer Kaylo • Season 2 • Episode 57

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Navigating open relationships can be very challenging; that’s why we’ve brought on an open relationship expert and coach, Jennifer Kaylo. Whether polyamorous, into swinging, or in a monogamish relationship, it’s crucial to the success and longevity of your relationship to have the tips, tools, and practices in your back pocket when in an open relationship. Jenifer helps her clients clearly define the type of open relationship they want so that they can properly educate themselves on how to go about setting up boundaries, agreements, and have clear communication with their partner about what they are comfortable with and what they are not. 

IN THIS EPISODE, YOU’LL HEAR:

  • How to handle jealousy and discomfort directly through communication
  • Steps to take before approaching your partner about opening up
  • Defining the different types of non-monogamy that exist 
  • Figuring out what works for you and your partner
  • Managing jealousy and all the other emotions that come with open relationships
  • How to tailor online dating profiles and the best app choices to fit your specific interests. Be upfront and find communities open to what you have to offer.

Jennifer provides invaluable tips for exploring non-monogamy consciously. The key is doing your personal work first, communicating needs clearly with your partner, and finding specialized support. Get the insider scoop on ethical open relationships with this episode!

EPISODE LINKS:

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LAST 10x LONGER. If you suffer from premature ejaculation, you are not alone, master 5 techniques to cure this stressful & embarrassing issue once and for all. Buy Now. Save 20% Coupon: PODCAST20.

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Leah | SxR Host:

Hey there, it's Leah, your Tantra expert here at Sex Reimagined.

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

And it's Dr. Willow Rowne, your Taoist sexology expert. We're so thrilled to introduce you today, if you have not met her yet, to Jennifer I'm She is a dog mom, first of all.

Leah | SxR Host:

Very important.

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

Most importantly.

Leah | SxR Host:

Yes.

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

she's also a human boy mom and a life partner to her beloved. She's multi million dollar revenue generator and a podcast host. She's certified sex and relationship coach, specializing in helping couples open their relationships, conscious uncoupling and online dating So we had a great conversation with her about, you know, the difference between monogamous versus monogamish versus polyamory and how to navigate that, how to open up your relationship, how to put together a dating profile. If you want to bring Third party into your relationship, or

Leah | SxR Host:

The best dating apps to look for open people. Yeah.

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

So fantastic. So enjoy this episode and, um, we'll see you on the other side.

Leah | SxR Host:

Yeah. So tune in, turn on and fall in love with Jennifer.

SxR Announcer:

Welcome to the Sex Reimagined Podcast, where sex is shame free and pleasure forward. Let's get into the show.

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

All right, we are here with Jennifer Kaylo, a dating expert in the realm of open relationships and dating when you're in an open relationship. So we're really excited to have you here, Jennifer. Welcome.

Jennifer:

Thank you. I'm so excited to be on with you two.

Leah | SxR Host:

We have so many questions. We so want the inside scoop on how the non monogamy uh, spirited person is looking for love out there. And so maybe we could just, I don't know where the best place to start, but I know that Willow and I have been kind of, you know, itching to ask you about profiles and how someone writes a good profile, what are all ofthe elements?

Jennifer:

Oh my gosh. Is this like the very beginning or are you guys going to skip around and ask me?

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

I, you know, I, maybe before we get into the dating profile, we want to save plenty of time for that and how to write that, but maybe just share a little bit with us around your story and how you got into open relationships. Because I know open relationships were not always the case for you.

Jennifer:

they weren't, and the reason I don't want to start with the profile, because that's the last piece. Like, you have to gather these components of what's my dynamic, and like, what kind of open are we before we can get to writing a profile? Do not just go get on a dating app and start writing a profile, like, we're open! Because I think you're going to run into some issues.

Leah | SxR Host:

Well, great. Tell us more. How do you figure that out?

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

Us down the track.

Jennifer:

Yeah. So let me just start with my story. I have, um, been married twice. And I am on my third life partner. And so I think some people that are listening are probably like, Oh my God, what is this? Like, who is this woman who thinks you can just keep getting married? And what I want to give you is permission. And to look at your life as this, this journey with all kinds of different roads and fun exploration, and you get to choose what is right for yourself. And so when you live in alignment, what's right for you changes, right? Ladies, you know this. So in my 20s, right, it was all about like living this dream, living this life that I thought I wanted, that I thought society wanted, that I thought my mom wanted for me, right, my parents. And so like I did do the dutiful thing and I graduated and got, I even got my MBA and met a guy and so anyway for an entire decade I was married to my first husband. And I have this thing, and I don't know if you too experience this, but at the end of every decade, there's like a life review that happens. It's almost like I'm back in the spirit world, but I'm like here on earth. And I'm doing it right now. I'm 39 and almost 40. I turn 40 in November, and so I'm doing it again with my life. But in my 20s, I was like... Oh my God, what have I created? I hate this. Like, I hate what I've created. And I was so successful and I worked for the world's largest retailer and I made all kinds of money and I had two beautiful children and I had a giant mansion and my ex and I made hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars and we had brand new cars, like all the things you can imagine. Like I'm a princess in a castle, like I had all the things.

Leah | SxR Host:

Wow.

Jennifer:

And I looked around and I was like, Oh my God, I fucking hate this. I hate my life. I hate what I've created. I'm unhappy in my marriage. My ex is verbally abusive, I have these two tiny kids and like, I want more. And so at 29, I left. And I was like, I don't want to do this anymore. I want to be divorced. I want to move on. I want to find someone that is sweet to me. So I got on dating apps. This is the first time. So if we're going to hit dating apps a few times.

Leah | SxR Host:

cool. Which dating did you get on outta, curiosity?

Jennifer:

At this point it was match. com. So this was ten years ago.

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

10 years ago.

Jennifer:

And dating apps were happening, but I hadn't dated in a decade, right? I went from high school to college, met my first husband, then we got married and we had the kids and I did the career thing. And so I'm all of a sudden looking up and I'm like, what is happening out in the world? How do you date? Like, Oh, match. com. And match back then was like serious. It was for the serious daters. These are the ones that are like looking for

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

The one.

Leah | SxR Host:

yeah.

Jennifer:

right. And I was like, I'm looking for the one, like this guy wasn't the one, there has to be another one for me. But interestingly, like manifestation comes into this story. Even at a young age, like I knew what manifestation was and I knew how to manifest clients. I knew how to manifest jobs and you had a man so I was like I'm gonna manifest my next husband. So for the last like two to three years of my life my first marriage I started like mentally going like what do I want him to look like and feel like and his energy and I want safety I want someone sweet. I want someone soft so I manifested a tall dark and handsome man who was in his feminine, but not too much, but definitely more than my current partner. And he provided this really safe bubble for me for the next almost 10 years. Right. For me to soften and it was safe to be in my feminine and I wasn't being yelled at and things weren't being thrown. And he was sweet to my kids and he helped co parent with my kid's dad. And like we had a really beautiful eight years together. And then this veil dropped and I was like, I want to try new things sexually. I want to, I want to do doggie style. Like for me that was like real out there. Like, I want to do doggie style. I want to, I want to try some kinky stuff. And so I felt like I was coming into my own sexuality and, but what, what I, what I noticed was like, I would ask for things and he would just say no. Like, you're my beautiful, precious queen. Like, I, I don't want to do those things to you. Like, you know? So the, we had this Madonna whore complex in our relationship. And so that's when I was like, okay, we need therapists. So I found a polyamorous therapist because I knew in the back of my mind, like, if he can't base, give me these basic things that like, take me to a tiny, like, step forward, I am not, like, I need to explore, like, I'm ready, like a pony, like ready to run, you know?

Leah | SxR Host:

And so, like friends or people that were, that had a more open minded view on relationship or anything, any models?

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

It just came from inside of you.

Jennifer:

I did have one, so my trainer, who ended up becoming, like, my best friend. Him and his fiancé are in a polyamorous relationship and have been for about nine years. So, that at least gave me the idea that, like, it was a possibility. And, so yeah, so we started working with this therapist, and I would go to her by myself for the first 4 or 5 months say, like, what can I do? What can I say? How can I ask for what I want? And like, I think these are things I want to try. Can you give me the words? Can you give me a script? And then I would go home and I would be like, can we do the doggie style?

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

So

Leah | SxR Host:

Aww, I love it, it's such a sweetheart. Hahaha.

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

I know,

Leah | SxR Host:

Can you just do me from behind?

Jennifer:

Can you just do me in the kitchen? I mean, anywhere.

Leah | SxR Host:

Just bend me over.

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

Just do me dirty somewhere, baby.

Jennifer:

Yeah, yeah, and what is interesting, what I uncovered was there was some childhood trauma and he didn't talk to me about it, but he was like, I'm starting to remember some things. And I'm starting to, you know, so our therapist was like, I think that him and I need to work one on one and Jen, this is going to take a long time. Like years to unpack, and he may not be ready in the time that you want him to be ready for, like now, you know? So you're gonna have to make a decision. Can you wait for him, or do you want to see if you can negotiate an open relationship? So I negotiated an open relationship, and this one was fully wide open. Like back to that pony, I was like, woo! Let's do all the things! So we didn't have any boundaries or rules, which is going to play into the dating app and writing your profile in just a minute.

Leah | SxR Host:

My eyes just got really big y'all.

Jennifer:

Totally wide open like do whatever you want and it was

Leah | SxR Host:

Crash course!

Jennifer:

Because I I remember us sitting in her office and we're negotiating and figuring out, you know, like are you are you okay? Like, okay, let's do this. I'm immediately on dating apps this time. I'm on tinder and i'm getting dates. And like the next morning. He's like so If you can date, I can date too, right? And I was like, yeah, go for it. Like go learn some things, go try some stuff, you know. Thinking like he's going to go and explore and become more sexually open and bring that back into our relationship. So he started to go and explore. He started to go and explore and one of the things I really wanted to try was us dating another couple and doing a full swap. And funny thing, I was dating the husband and he ends up matching with the wife, had no idea that this is the wife to the husband I've been dating. And they start seeing each other and the husband contacts me and he's like, I think you need to know what's happening. Like, our people have connected, which is really exciting. And he was like, but you should know like what? And I was like, okay. So we ended up never doing a full swab. He saw her for a little while. And over the, you know, like, when you first start dating, there's this like really excite, exciting, like, Oh, this is so much fun. And like, people want me and I'm getting to try all these new things. And then comes the like, Oh shit, nobody wants me. No one's right swiping on me. Or he got catfished one time and that was like the end of it. He was like, this is too much work. I don't want to do this. He was driving like two and three hours to have sex dates with people. And he was just like, I just, I just want a vanilla life, like I've had. Like I want a vanilla life. This is too much. I don't want any of this.

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

Mm

Jennifer:

He's like, what are we doing? And I was like, I don't know. I'm having a lot of fun. And so we made this decision. Where we were in the hot tub together and he was like, I think I want to move out.

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

Mm

Leah | SxR Host:

How did feel

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

hard

Leah | SxR Host:

Yeah.

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

Mm-hmm.

Jennifer:

You know, I, I let him come to his own decision cause I could kind of see it coming, but I didn't want to be the one to say anything because I loved him. And I loved being married and being able to go play and coming home and him being there. Like I could feel him in bed and hold him and like, you know, like we had this, you know, this marriage where he was still helping with the kids and like helping figure out dinner. And like he was there to like, I loved the presence of having another human, adult human in the house. And towards the end of our opening, like I just, I stopped wanting to have sex with him because I was like, it's just so sad compared to all this amazing sex I'm having out here in the world. All of a sudden, instead of like 16 year old sex, which is what I realized we'd been having and I'd had for two decades of my life, all of a sudden I'm having two and three hour sex dates. I'm having men that are exploring every inch of my body. I'm having men that are wanting to go down on me. Like, my ex husband went down on me one time in eight years.

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

Mm.

Leah | SxR Host:

Yeah.

Jennifer:

And so all of a sudden I have these men that are like, your body is a wonderland. It's like a John Mayer song, Worshipping you, yeah. You're like, I want to get all up in there, you know, for a long time. Can I just hang out here for a while? And so I'm having all these like amazing, explosive, world changing, like ground shaking experiences and then I go home. And it's like, you know, right boob, left boob. 15 minutes and it's over, and so I don't know that I was, um, devastated.

Leah | SxR Host:

Mm hmm,

Jennifer:

By the ending of the relationship, but I

Leah | SxR Host:

Sounds like the the end of an era or something.

Jennifer:

Yeah, yeah, it felt like, okay, it's time for me to be able to explore.

Leah | SxR Host:

Yeah.

Jennifer:

Okay, so I'm going to stop here because I've got one more to tell you about, but do you guys have any questions about any of that so far?

Leah | SxR Host:

No, it's how delicious, keep, keep going,

Jennifer:

Okay, alright, so then we're going to jump into relationship number two that's open and how it looks different, okay? So when I first started getting on tinder with my ex husband the second man that I connected with is Scott. Who is my partner now, who lives with us and helps me raise the kids. And I met Scott and he was one of the first mind blowing sexual experiences that I ever had. And not only Is he amazing at having sex, you know, with me or, or whoever. But he is emotionally and like he's aware, he's conscious, he, we can have hours of conversation and my ex husband would say like, I talk all day for a living, he works for ESPN radio so he talks for hours and hours a day and comes home and he's like, I'm tired, I don't want

Leah | SxR Host:

He's talked out. Yeah,

Jennifer:

I was like, I work from home. My kids were schooling from home all through COVID. And so I was like, I need humans to talk to. I have a lot to say. And so it was like these sticky points that made Scott and I really start to really stick, you know, hard, like taffy to each other. And so Scott was noticing, you know, my relationship with my ex husband changing. And then when Derek moved out, it was interesting. Cause I was dating, like dating, right? Like 10 men.

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

Mm.

Jennifer:

All at the same time. And Scott was the only one. Do what?

Leah | SxR Host:

Was it chaotic?

Jennifer:

No, no. I knew everyone's name, their kids, like I didn't meet all of them, but like I knew their stories. I have this ability to like make containers in my brain, kind of like a man. And I would just swap out the containers as needed. And my sex drive is really high. And so I was like, I could have sex every day, but all of these men aren't available every day. And so I would be like, can you just Happy Tuesday and you be Thursday. So I was trying to make them fit into these containers that were easy for my brain to work out. But then I didn't realize, like, it kind

Leah | SxR Host:

You're my Friday guy. You're my Wednesday guy. You're my Tuesday afternoon lunch hour. I dig it.

Jennifer:

I, I had that. Uh, it wasn't quite as like calendared as I would have liked it to

Leah | SxR Host:

Okay.

Jennifer:

But it was interesting. So Scott, um, I asked Scott, it's like one night a guy canceled on me. He was sick or something, something came up with this kid or whatever. And I was like, Hey, so I have an opening tonight. Poor choice of words, right? I'm like, I have an opening tonight and I'm curious if you want to get together? And he was like, I don't want to be your backup guy. Like, I don't want to be one of the guys in your, like, plethora of rolodex humans. You know, like, this isn't feeling good for me. I feel things for you, and this is, like, it's, it doesn't feel fair to me anymore. Like, I'm shifting in the way that I'm feeling about you, and I think we need to break up.

Leah | SxR Host:

Wow.

Jennifer:

And I was like, hold on. Can we have a conversation about this? Because I didn't know I was allowed to feel this way and you were allowed to feel this way, but I do feel the same way about you. So we ended up connecting when my ex moves out. He's the only one out of all these men that is like, can we date full time? Like, I just want to date you. So we. We, I closed my relationship and ended up only seeing Scott and only being with Scott for about half a year. And he moved in and we really laid a nice foundation for our relationship, a foundation for what it is to show up for each other as partners. A foundation of just love and intimacy and respect and yumminess. And, you know, six months in and I'm like, Hey, remember that conversation about like, eventually opening back up again? Can we do that? And he was like, Oh, I thought you forgot about all that, like, aren't we just living in this blissed out wonderland, just the two of us? And, and I'm like, yeah, and I want to explore. So my whole adult life, I went from high school, Christian high school, to college. Immediately within one month found my first husband. Was with him for a whole decade, never, ever, ever was with another man. Second decade, another husband, like I hadn't explored at all. Y'all, doggie to me was like kinky, know?

Leah | SxR Host:

Yeah. Okay. That's good. That's another layer I didn't quite get along the journey is that you hadn't had a chance to kind of be a wild child yet in your sexual experience. Um, it's so, it's so easy when you're someone who is a me person was promiscuous. I love my inner sacred slut. Such a great time in my life. So grateful for it. There are a couple sometimes maybe I, I had regrettable moments, but, but not many. So now I'm going, Oh, okay. So she didn't have that moment in her twenties or in her teens or even in her thirties. I mean, did you get to really branch out? Well, you're in your late thirties now, almost 40. Okay.

Jennifer:

So when my ex husband, second husband, and I opened up the relationship, we got on Tinder, I started to at least have sex with someone other than my husband, right? So like I got to experience the way grown adult men have sex, hopefully. And I was so, I want to say the word lucky, but because I think I was so intentional and really manifested in what I wanted. I got these perfectly aligned gentlemen that gave

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

very clear.

Jennifer:

Yeah.

Leah | SxR Host:

There's something about age, too, that correlates with that. Like when you're mature enough to have an expansive, multiple lover type of experience. Unlike me, who went through a big phase of that when I was less mature. There was more, there was, I think it was stickier. So anyways. Yeah. continue...

Jennifer:

Okay.

Leah | SxR Host:

And, and Will, you were starting to ask a question.

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

No, keep going Jennifer.

Jennifer:

Okay. So, so, so we're back to like, can we open it back up? So I was just saying, even when we did open it, I got to experience what having sex with men that are mature, right? Like mature sex. I got to experience what that was, but I didn't get to like push the envelope. So I had, had this sexual bucket list. Of things I wanted to try, right? Doggy was obviously one of them.

Leah | SxR Host:

Right.

Jennifer:

But like, I want to try some BDSM. Like, what does it feel like to have a spanking as an adult? I didn't understand what any of that was. And then like, broader, I was like what's a Dungeon like, like what's a sex club like? And so like my list just started growing and growing, like I want to go to a house party where it's like the neon lights and you wear all white and it's glow. Like so I started trying to check off those things But then as my relationship with Scott became back to monogamous like all of a sudden all those things got kind of taken away and instead was replaced with this amazing relationship with the two of us learning each other and learning what it was like to be in relationship with a grown ass man and is masculine, which was a whole new thing for me. So at six months, I'm like, okay, remember this list? At least doggy got to be crossed off, but like, remember all this other list that I really want to try. Are you still game for doing them with me? So that was the big thing. Scott was like, I'm okay with us exploring, but like, I want to explore with you.

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

With you together. That

Jennifer:

Together. And that's where this is different. Hmm?

Leah | SxR Host:

Was that your preference as well?

Jennifer:

No.

Leah | SxR Host:

Oh, okay.

Jennifer:

So I fought it, so we opened it back up, and I'm thinking like, I'm gonna sleep with men, we're gonna have like, these swaps with couples. And he was like, I'm not comfortable with another man being inside of you. Like, I am, I know it's barbaric, I know it's old school thinking, but I'm just not fucking okay with it. And I'm trying, I'm trying to be okay with it, but I'm not okay with it. And so I was like, okay, so we go back to the polytherapist. And I'm like, can you help him see that this is barbaric? And that, you know, like, this should not be, you know, these restraints around me. Long story short, we almost broke up because I just kept pushing and kept pushing. And finally Scott said this thing to me. He was like, Jen, you don't always get to have everything you want. Sometimes, you have to compromise. Sometimes there has to be like an adjustment into what you're expecting, you know, and then go with it. And so he was like, this is your opportunity. If you want to stay in this, I'm willing to go explore with you, but no man's penis shall enter you. And I'm like, okay. Fine. We'll figure this out. So we start exploring and we start dating a couple. And it's a little too close for me, right? Cause I've been with other men. So I'm like, okay, I'm drawn to men, but I know my, my, my constriction, like my box, my rules are, I can only sleep with women. So we try this thing where we date this couple and like, I want her to be into me. And she sort of kind of wants to play with women. It doesn't really happen and it's weird with the guy. So anyway, that didn't work. And then we start shifting dynamics again. Again, this comes back to dating. I promise I'm going to get there, but we shift dynamics again. And then we're like, okay, we're just dating women. And I'm like, it feels better. It feels more in alignment because then I'm not constantly feeling this like draw towards the husband, you know? And so now I'm like, okay, I can put my attention towards, let's find a woman, a woman that likes women. Cool. So we do that and that's awesome. And all of a sudden I get to experience him and sharing my partner with another woman and us even her and I dating one on one and then we tried her dating him one on one and then that felt weird for him. So then we just readjusted our dynamic again and then that relationship kind of faded and we tried another one. And it was really so that our dynamic Scott and I is we only date women and we only date them together. So like there's no going off on it and it has worked out really beautifully for us. And I am fully aware that this type of open relationship is is, is a pretty small box considering like all the different ways to be open. And so I always say that, especially with my sex and relationship coaching clients. Like the way we do open is not the way that you have to do open, but it works for us and it brings us closer together. And because our sex is so amazing too, bringing in a third is like the cherry on top. And not only do we only date women, but right now we're exclusively like a closed container with our third. So we're in this triad and it's closed and we've been with her since April. So I'll.

Leah | SxR Host:

from your other experiences, like now having a committed relationship to a third partner, as opposed to more like, you know, dating and it being a little bit more casual.

Jennifer:

I think it's all fun. Um, this allows us to go deeper. So we're now like using the love word. We're like, we love you, and she's like, I love you, and it feels safe. Um, to throw in another interesting piece into our dynamic, so she is still dating other people. So she has, kind of like our story, she's a little older than us, but she, um, had never allowed herself to be open. And so she just kind of did like me, the monogamous partner after partner thing, right? And now all of a sudden, she's coming into her own sexual exploration. And it's different. So in the past, we have asked our women, like, can you just date us for STI reasons? Can't we want a safe container? And they've said yes. And then eventually it's moved off because they want to go explore too. And so with our girlfriend, there's something different. And I think. I don't feel a lot of jealousy with her, um, we're really close, we're friends, we're even, like, future colleagues, we're both in this sex and relationship space, and we're like, how do we create a cool place together that we can work and serve our clients? And so, like, there's all this dynamic, like, and we have amazing sex together. And so, like, I kept thinking about her like a butterfly. And I'm like, I don't want to pin her down. I want to let her, uh, let her, allow her, whatever, be open to the idea that she still is like, frolicking, and she's doing it safely, and she's being fully open and transparent with us and them when there's other people involved. And? Like with all the things we have going on, being a closed container for us is the easiest thing right now and feels, feels right.

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

Did you find her on a dating app?

Jennifer:

We did. Yeah. We, we found her on Feeld.

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

Oh, oh, Feeld. Okay, I don't, have not heard of that dating app.

Jennifer:

Yeah. So I'm ready to talk about dating whenever you guys are ready.

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

Let's dive in. How do you create a dating profile? What dating apps do you prefer when you are in a polyamorous situation?

Jennifer:

Okay, so the top one, the top dating apps are obviously Tinder. Tinder is number one if you're in an open relationship or not in an open relationship. I'd say Tinder first. It's gonna have the biggest pool. Bumble is also a really great app, especially if you're looking for women specifically, but there's also lots of open people on Bumble. And then the third one is Feeld. So, some pros and cons with all of them. Um, Tinder is not built for couples. So, if you have a couple's picture as your main photo, they will deactivate your account. It's pretty intense. I have been banned from Tinder. Isn't that silly?

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

Ah, interesting.

Leah | SxR Host:

That'a not nice.

Jennifer:

it's like Instagram, it's like, for me too. I'm on my second TikTok account. Um, So if you, if you are a couple and you want to use Tinder because it's the biggest fish and like the biggest pond for fish, make sure that you and your partner have your own dating profiles. And if you're gonna put a picture of the two of you in it at least kind of bury it a little bit. Don't have it on the first, maybe even the second, but have it maybe third or fourth and you can say I'm in an open relationship or I'm married in your profile. That's not what seems to be the trigger for Tinder. It seems to be the profile picture.

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

mm,

Jennifer:

In their terms and conditions, they don't want anyone else to be in your picture, which makes sense. Like, don't put your kids, that's gross and illegal. Like, just don't do that. And then if you're gonna have another adult, make sure that they, they are like consenting to be in your profile pictures. I see a lot of this. Like, here's a beach scene of me and my friends on the boat. Like, do all these people know that they're on your profile on Tinder? That's gross, right? So anyway, just be careful. And so I would say Tinder, if you're going to be on there and you're going to have an open profile, which you should, I believe that you should be open if you're open, like, be, be honest, um, know that there's risks. Mm hmm. Okay, so that's Tindr. Um, oh, the other downside to Tindr is... Because it's the biggest fishing pool, right, you're gonna have a lot of people in there that are not open. So if you do get a lot of right swipes, it could just be because you're hot and you're gonna have to wade through a lot of like, just normal people, like lots of vanilla people that are like grossed out that you're open. Or like asking if you're cheating on your wife and like, so I don't know if it's the vibe that you want, but you can try it. Okay, the other one is Bumble, which is built for women. Women get to right swipe first, so if you're a man, you can't right swipe. I love Bumble for the, the, the female partner in the relationship to then go find another woman to bring in. Or on, on Bumble, you can have a profile for the two of you. I see lots of open people on Bumble.

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

Or find another man, as the case may be, if that's your dynamic with your partner.

Jennifer:

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Or find another man. Right. I guess I was thinking, because all minors switched women looking for women, I find a lot more women are the ones that have the dating dual profile versus the man, for some reason. It's like, maybe we're not as scared to do it, or even society looks on

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

It seems a little bit more acceptable societally, yeah.

Jennifer:

Yeah. So that's what I've noticed. Um, I have had a lot of success on Bumble. When my profile switched women looking for women, um, I've had a lot of success. I've had a couple of partners off of there. We've had several dates off of there. Um, and it's just a, it feels like a different pool of people that are more serious and dating. Um, and the women expect to be treated with more respect than Tinder is more of like, let's go hook up and

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

fuck. Let's hook up, yeah.

Jennifer:

Okay. The third one in my favorite one is Feeld. F E L D. It is for open relationships. It is so easy to use. They have an amazing functionality where you build a profile, your partner builds a profile, and you can connect them. And so in the bottom, you'll see the other partner. And so if you connect to the husband, you can go back in and connect with the wife or whatever. Whatever the partner

Leah | SxR Host:

It's four couples.

Jennifer:

It is for anyone open. Mm hmm.

Leah | SxR Host:

Oh, anyone who's open to

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

Anyone in the non monogamy realm?

Jennifer:

So there's lots of singles on there. There's lots of like, Hey, I'm a unicorn and I want to play with a couple. Or like, I'm a single woman and I do not want to be a unicorn. Right. Or same for men. So I see a lot of that. Um, there's also some really cool functionality that you can do group chats. So if you are connected with other people, you can put them all in a group chat. Like, Hey, you guys want to go to dinner. Or like in our dynamic, where we're dating together, we want our conversations to also be together so that there's no surprises. There's no like, you don't have to be the third person to be

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

You're always seeing

Leah | SxR Host:

Yeah, it's like

Jennifer:

we're always

Leah | SxR Host:

and easy and

Jennifer:

Exactly. So Feeld is my favorite. We've had the most success off of Feeld and of course people that are in that space are all open and so you're not going to have all those conversations about are you cheating on your wife about it, like it's very transparent.

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

That's cool. I have never used a dating app, you guys. Have you, Leah?

Leah | SxR Host:

For a short period, I tried, this is when Match was like the primary, um, dating app out there. And it, it kind of failed miserably for me. I was conflicted with my background as a Tantra educator. On the one hand, I didn't want to present it, like, oh, I'm so impressive. I'm like, You know, expert in sexuality and like that felt gross. And then there was another part of me that also felt like I needed to be transparent that this is also what I do for a living. And so I didn't want to waste my time with people who were going to have a problem with that. And so I, I, I was juggling that dynamic. And um, You know, I realized that for me at that time in my life, I really wanted other partners that were interested in Tantra, but I didn't have to be their teacher teacher. I love playing with a beginner. Oh my God. Beginners are my absolute favorite. But I, I didn't want someone just to try it on. I wanted someone that was already a little bit further down the path where consciousness was a part of their worldview and sexuality was something that was, an integral part of who they were as an expressive being. So it just got too confusing, all those layers, and I just realized, I, I have really good luck dating students. So I've had wonderful, I've had four or five epic relationships with people who started off as my students. I know it's very controversial, um, and I married one, and I, and I couldn't be happier. It really worked out for me.

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

Yeah.

Jennifer:

I love that. Okay, so I'm thinking of two other women in the sex educator space. One is Jaya from the Erotic Blueprints, which I know you both know. And then Dr. Joli Hamilton, she's in the open relationship space, um, did her doctorate in Jungian, Jungian?

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

Mm. Jungian, yeah.

Leah | SxR Host:

Jungian.

Jennifer:

She's amazing, and both of them are in very open relationships, and both are on dating apps, and are dating all the time. And I wonder how that works when you're like somewhat famous, you know, and then you're like, oh my god, this famous person's on my dating app. And then there are people trying to date you just because you're famous. I don't know how they navigate

Leah | SxR Host:

Well, I have to say the hottest one that showed up, he was so hot, he was too young and so gorgeous. And he ended up coming to our teacher training and then told me after like, Oh yeah, no, you and I were having a conversation on, on

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

met on match.

Leah | SxR Host:

Yeah. But if I had, if this had been around, I think if I had had more awareness of what these other options were, I think I could have explored it and had more fun.

Jennifer:

So why don't we take your example, and we'll use it, and we'll write a dating profile.

Leah | SxR Host:

Okay. Sure.

Jennifer:

you guys ready?

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

Yes.

Jennifer:

Okay, so the first thing, and you can play pretend, like, Leah, I don't know if you're open or not open, but we can play pretend that you are. Oh,

Leah | SxR Host:

Well, I mean,

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

She's open. She's in a monogamous, non monogamous relationship.

Jennifer:

Monogamish is what you are. So that actually, that leads us to our very first question, which is, what kind of open are you? Are you polyamorous? Do you know what that means? Are you a swinger? Are you monogamish?

Leah | SxR Host:

I, um, I would say I would put down monogamish and, um, with a desire to experiment in, in other kink realms that I haven't dabbled in yet. I don't know if you're probably not ready for that question.

Jennifer:

No, that's so perfect. Okay, so for those of you watching or listening, um, if you are into polyamory, that means that you are open to many loves. Poly means

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

Opening your heart, meaning you're getting into a relationship, not just hooking up or exploring sexually.

Jennifer:

Exactly. Swingers are totally the opposite. They are like, we are down to fuck. Do not fall in love with me. If you fall in love with me, we are out. You're done. And a lot of my swinger friends are even like, I will only hook up one time with one person. Like, I don't know how you have that many people in your pool. Cause I'm in Northwest Arkansas. Like you guys can't like, it's like Trump territory here y'all.

Leah | SxR Host:

right,

Jennifer:

We are conservatives. There's a lot of churches. Like, I don't know how you're finding enough people to, like, wade through in that realm, the realm, but, uh, I have a lot. I have, what's interesting, I'm in this open relationship group that is in, like, our Tri State area, and there's, like, 3, 000 of us. Which is also kind of impressive. And most of the people are swingers. Almost all of them are swingers. So I would guess like swingers are more than polyamory people. But whatever, you can also kind of have a hybrid. So maybe let's say, um, Scott and I are in a polyamorous relationship with our girlfriend. But every now and then we like to just go to the club and have fun. And we swing a little bit. So you could, we aren't that, but you could be that.

Leah | SxR Host:

You could be that. Yeah.

Jennifer:

Monogamish is more, I am mostly just monogamous with my partner, but every now and then we might invite somebody in and it, right? I'm assuming that this is not you having a third or fourth person that you have like a long term relationship with. Leah, do you want to give us more info?

Leah | SxR Host:

In my personal life, I would say that I am monogamous with my husband. Like, that feels like monogamy between him and I, but professionally, I put my hands on people's bodies. And I work with shifting their nervous system sexually. So there are dynamics, and there's a container around that, so there's no intercourse, there's no oral sex, there are certain, um, things that are not on the table.

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

Parameters and boundaries.

Leah | SxR Host:

But I, you know, technically, if you're gonna define monogamy, due to my work, I'm not technically Monogamous. Um, although it's a very, very clear container of what it is and what it isn't within a professional space.

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

I'm probably more in that monogamish pool, you know, like I have my primary person that I'm monogamous with, but we have not yet, but are probably going to in the future open to exploring with others.

Leah | SxR Host:

So if I were going to like do this for real, what, given that truth, um, I'd be looking for community, friends, experts, other people to be in connection with, to find out what's working for them and for my husband and I to go on a journey to go, okay, we want to expand, we're going to tiptoe. We want to see what works for other people. We also want to hear some of the horror stories. So we know what not to do. And, um, and, and first, you know, learn and, and explore the edges inside of ourselves that we haven't fully opened all those rooms to each other yet. That's where I'm really feeling a desire and a pull to go, okay, I want to challenge myself. I want to challenge the boundaries around me. I want the relationship to be primary, safe, home. So what will work with him and I? And see where it goes. I'm not super, what's the word, attached to any one outcome because I'm pretty fucking happy. But I want to, I want my inner wild child is ready for another rumble.

Jennifer:

That's perfect. Okay. So let's, let's go with that. So you could be monogamish and you and your husband are like, let's check out a sex club together. Let's just like feel the energy. Right? And so you go to a sex club and you decide, I'm just going to watch. I'm just going to voyeur.

Leah | SxR Host:

Someone to watch me. Yes.

Jennifer:

That's really bright, or have somebody watch you. Um, you might decide after going several times, there's this cute couple that we keep seeing. Or there's this cute lady that we keep seeing, like, do you want to see if she's interested in playing at all? Okay, and then you just kind of dip your toe in a little, and like, that could be monogamish, right? I can also imagine this being kind of like what Scott and I have. Maybe, maybe we're more monogamish, because it's mostly him and I in our relationship, in our container. We, um, have a hierarchical, relationship meaning it's us first and then our girlfriend whenever she decides to pop in. So that is feels very monogamoush where we are committed to her, but she's not here all the time. We might see her once a week maybe twice a week if we're really lucky. One might actually be a planned sex date where the other one is snuggle and movie time and let's talk about your day.

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

I would call you guys polyamory. Like, you're using the love word, you've got a girlfriend, I mean, this is, you're opening your heart to someone else. That's more polyamory than monogamish in my book. I think when it becomes hierarchy, it becomes polyamory.

Jennifer:

There is a whole group of like, they consider themselves like traditional polyamorous people that believe in non hierarchy. So they're like, you're doing it wrong if you and all your partners and their partners aren't all just equal,

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Leah | SxR Host:

I

Jennifer:

I think in different phases of your life, maybe that makes sense. Like, Scott and I talk a lot about this, because he's like, you are always my number one. Like, I want to love you the most. And I'm like, but according to these people you're wrong. Like, in our life right now, we've got kids in school, and we've got so much going on. And we're like, we're the ones paying the bills together. I can't imagine bringing in another person, make a decision on like, who's paying the mortgage this month. Now, when the kids are gone, and it's just us, and things are quiet, and life is just kind of flowing, I can imagine that maybe we have a third person or we have a couple that comes and maybe they even live with us. And like, we all share the bills and we're in this like commune kind of thing. That could be really fun.

Leah | SxR Host:

Yeah, I find it really fascinating and extremely complicating.

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

It

Leah | SxR Host:

I... LAUGHS

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

It takes a lot of energy for sure.

Leah | SxR Host:

There's so many ego landmines in my prior experience of polyamory that I'm a little gun shy of, of... That realm, because it's tripped me up in the past. Um, it's so, I mean, the whole thing is so interesting. And what I love about what's available for us is the fact that everyone can make their own rules, that whatever you're engaging in is a very deeply personal negotiation and exploring your desires. And if we can treat each other with high regard, if you can treat yourself with high regard, if you can treat other with high regard, I think you're really able to negotiate something that hopefully will meet a desire inside of each other, inside of the other, and the other, and the other, and the other if you don't look at it having to be all or nothing. Um, so it's a fascinating world and it still scares the shit out of me. You know? Like the fears of rejection arise and the fears of hurting someone and not being able to recover them. I mean, there's just, just as, I'm just noticing. The rise of sensation of going, I don't want to fuck it up. Um, so how do you manage that when it feels risky, when you get that dip in your belly and it's, it's going sideways and you get scared, do you ever have that experience?

Jennifer:

Yeah, I want to ask, uh, I want to ask, I guess I want to say two things to that. One is like, what if it could be easy? In our relationship with our girlfriend, so freaking easy that I'm like, why would I ever want to enter, like insert anything that could complicate this shit? Like

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

Mm.

Leah | SxR Host:

Well Bravo.

Jennifer:

It's easy, right? She's doing her own life. She's exploring her own thing. We, we all went to dinner the other night before we had like amazing sex for a few hours. And we were talking, you know, with our clothes on and eating cheese dip. And she was like, I signed up for this new sex coaching program. It's like this master's level next thing that I want to learn. And she was telling us all about it. And, and I'm like, see, no one had to make a decision but her. And she just comes and tells us about it and we're all excited. And we're like, cool. How can we support you? And this is really fun. And she floats in and out like a little butterfly into our life. And it's so easy, but we've had relationships where one time we dated a 26 year old y'all. Oh my goodness.

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

Didn't quite have the, um, the maturity that's required?

Jennifer:

And I think, like, she thought she did, but I kept telling Scott, I was like, I don't think anyone under 30 is gonna understand what it's like to be.

Leah | SxR Host:

Ding, ding, ding, because most of my experiences happened under 30 and it might be why I felt like such

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

Why it was such a shit show all the time, yeah.

Leah | SxR Host:

So, yeah, I love, as soon as you said, what if it could be easy? My whole body like relaxed, right? A deep breath and exhale. It's like, oh, I can breathe. What if it could be easy? You know, because I've got friends who... Ah, it's like they've got such a beautiful life together with their, their primary relationship, their love. And then they just express themselves so generously with each other and with others. And they're, it's like they're connected to their autonomy, but they're still very much pair bonded. And, uh, I, so I envy people who can do it well. And I think what you're offering as a coach is really important for people who want to experiment. So how do you stay healthy in this? I mean,

Jennifer:

Well, I was going to say with the 26 year old, it didn't go so well. Like I was very jealous because I'm like, she's beautiful. She's young. My mind kind of like took off and was like, what if Scott went off and like married her and raised her child with her? And like, wouldn't he be happier? She's so much younger, sexier, pretty fill in all the blank than me. Right? And so I got to experience like intense jealousy.

Leah | SxR Host:

Yeah.

Jennifer:

And really work through that and be able to vocalize it. So, so how do you, what was the question? How do I stay

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

what? How do you stay healthy?

Leah | SxR Host:

Yeah.

Jennifer:

Like mentally, like through the whole process or what?

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

How does anyone?

Jennifer:

I think in this process of being open, a couple of things, like one, you have to be incredibly honest with yourself. Right? And this goes into kind of building our profile, but like really truly, what do you and your partner want? And if you want something different than your partner, can you find common ground in that? And God, communicate, communicate, like keep communicating. And the more that it feels sticky and crunchy and uncomfortable, keep communicating through that. We had so many months where I was like, he's gonna leave me. And I'm also not willing anymore to give up my desire to be open and to explore. Like, I am not fucking putting the lid back on this shit. Like, I have done this for 40 years. Almost 40, right? Like, I want to explore. And so, I just kept asking for what I wanted, and I kept kind of reframing it, or like, what if we tried this other thing. Or what if we, I remember last fall when we were going through all of this, and I kept, I really wanted to try kinky stuff, and I really wanted Scott to step into his dominance, and to try, I wanted to feel what being submissive was. I've been such, you know, like, I've been, I've been the masculine force in our family. And I'm like making the money and doing all the things and, like figuring out dinner. And I just wanted to feel in my, in my, uh, I wanted to feel in my feminine right and to be submissive. And, y'all, it took a whole year, but we went to a dungeon and he has a whole outfit and he even has, like, a special name that he has and he does it, like, he flogged me on a cross

Leah | SxR Host:

to transition into that? Was it a little bit of pulling teeth to have him

Jennifer:

Totally. He kept saying like, I don't want to play pretend. I don't want to feel like it's not me. I don't want to put on another persona. But I'm like, but you've been a dungeon master playing Dungeons and Dragons since you were like, you know, seven. Like, you can play pretend.

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

You find this part of yourself inside of yourself. Yeah. And I think what's so cool about stepping into that dungeon role and the BDSM and the sub dom is you get to explore a part of yourself that you don't get to explore anywhere else. And then it, gives you a new level of confidence, a new level of wholeness. Like another part of yourself is playing the game of life at that point. And you do everything differently. How did it change the way that he then like moved through the rest of his life when he finally stepped into it?

Jennifer:

Right? I would say like at home we're much more playful. There's this like playful energy. And he picks up when I'm being a little bratty. Like I was doing it yesterday. Even in front of the kids I was being a little bratty. We ended up playing magic. Are y'all into card games? Magic, The Gathering,

Leah | SxR Host:

No.

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

Because just be, they're not mine, but just'cause of where I'm living right now. They're like in the drawer.

Leah | SxR Host:

Oh, how funny, I have to pull them out.

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

yeah.

Jennifer:

We were playing last night with my oldest and I kept trying to form an alliance with my oldest so we could kill Scott, Scott's character. And I just kept like, like, we, we gotta take his guys out. His goblins keep reproducing and like, we're all gonna die. And like, I just kept like, kind of like picking on him. And he just kept flirting with me. It was so cute. He was like, I see what you're doing here. And I was like, I feel like I've been really bad today. And so it just, it's changed our dynamic. Exactly. Instead of being so serious, like it can be much more just playful and fun. And we know that,

Leah | SxR Host:

yeah,

Jennifer:

there's this depth.

Leah | SxR Host:

and yes.

Jennifer:

Yeah, and because the roots are there, right? Like, we've tended our roots, and we're so grounded that all this stuff can be fun, right? And you can put on your Dr. Shades outfit and go to the dungeon with me, like, and we're still solid.

Leah | SxR Host:

So I think, I think you made such a wise decision when you started going to therapy to someone who had experience in this, um, world of relationship as you went and took yourself on this journey. And I'm, I'm curious, do you and Scott still have a therapist when you need help with communication or are you pretty dialed in now and know how to navigate yourself out of some sticky places?

Jennifer:

Yeah, I would say we're pretty dialed in, and I have a network of coaches. Yeah, I have my own that I see every other week. Um, I have another that I see every week. Like, I'm a male and a female, and so I love getting their points of view, where I know I can tap one of them. So, that's my form of continuing to get help. I do a lot of, like, coach trading, since now I have so many coaches in my world. But, Leah, you were asking about that. Like, how do you stay... Sane, how do you stay focused? How do you stay healthy, right? And I would say from the people that I coach and myself too, it's having someone to talk this kind of stuff through, having somebody that can create practices with you to calm your nervous system. Because it's very, um, unsettling, I think, like your nervous system's a bit fried as you're going through all of this. And the difficult conversations and learning to kind of self soothe through the jealousy or

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

Yeah, it can all, it's like a trigger, a possibility for a major trigger fest, all of this.

Jennifer:

Absolutely.

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

Being able to be honest and really clear with each other is so

Jennifer:

Yes, and don't make your partner your therapist. Like, that was a big thing that I learned through therapy was, when you just, I talk to process. I gotta talk it out. Or I, like, write it out. Yeah, me too. So, he doesn't want to hear all my shit. Like, he wants to hear the end version of it. Like, this is what happened, here's what I

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

is the nutshell. Yeah. Yeah.

Leah | SxR Host:

Yeah. Get to the point. Essentialize it.

Jennifer:

So I think it saves a lot of uncomfortable, uh, feelings between us because I'm the verbal processor,when I can take care of that with a coach. And get really clear on something and then share it with him or don't share it with him, just depending on if he's

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

What it is.

Leah | SxR Host:

So how can people work with you if, if they're ready to kind of dabble or if they're already completely submersed? You know, if they know they need some support, you do one on one coaching, right?

Jennifer:

I do. Yeah. It's really my only form right now. I've played a little bit with group coaching and what I keep finding is people went one on one, at least with me. You know, they're, a lot of the time they're new or they're just getting in and so it's jealousy that's coming up. It's like, he's not listening to me. It's how can we get on the same page even about our dynamic? So I just, at this point, I'm doing one on one.

Leah | SxR Host:

Okay. Great. And, um, and people can go to your website.

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

You also have an awesome free gift for us.

Jennifer:

I do. I have an opening your relationship guide. It is really good. It's, it's the things that we talked about today and going a little deeper. So what type of open are you? The next phase would be like discovering your dynamic. Remember I talked about being completely open or Right now we're pretty closed, right, where we're only seeing women and it's a closed relationship. There's so many in betweens and so this guide will help you dive into that. Um, and then I have a ton of resources inside of that deck as well. Podcasts, books to read, things to listen to, things to watch. And I really suggest if you are wanting to open up your relationship and you haven't even discussed it with your partner, really get clear on what you want and get educated about all of this stuff before you go start bringing things up with them, and then they're like, what the fuck? Do you want to leave me? Do you want someone else? Like, get really clear and grounded before you have the conversation, and this guide will give you that information.

Leah | SxR Host:

Well, that is awesome. It's so generous of you and, um, so excited to have you on. This is a great conversation. I'm so happy there's someone out there living this and helping other people explore it. So check out your, we're going to have her links to the, um, to her freebie. We'll have links to our podcast and all the ways you can get ahold of her. Please check out the show notes.

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

Thank you, Jennifer. So great to be with you today. We'll see you very soon.

Leah | SxR Host:

Love, love, love.

SxR Announcer:

Now, our favorite part, the dish.

Leah | SxR Host:

Well, let's dish on Jennifer.

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

Yeah, I mean, first of all, Jennifer has such great energy, such a great spirit. She has really, um, navigated this polyamory, non monogamy, monogamish world to a lot of different, you know, she's walked to a lot of different corners of it. And, um, learned a lot along the way, probably with a lot of, uh, pain and heartbreak and suffering, I imagine, along the way, but she has it's finally landed in a situation, a relationship where, um, where it's all in alignment. And I think that's what it takes. I think that when you are playing in non monogamy, when you're playing in polyamory world, there's going to be some trial and error to figure out what works for you. What's right for you.

Leah | SxR Host:

Yeah, because sometimes, I mean, I often wonder about this in my own head. It's sometimes I think the idea of it is more fun than the actual act of it.

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

Yeah.

Leah | SxR Host:

You know, the, the, the visual in your mind is the place that you actually have the most fun. But when it comes down to actually being an action, yeah, it's, it's not quite what you thought your head was coming up with.

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

Yeah. Although I, you know, in my last relationship, we did monogamish pretty well and we had some good times, you know, we would, it was always with another woman similar to what, you know, she was talking about. And we definitely had a lot of fun when we would make that happen. Um, I think though, the, what was missing for, for me and, and for us in that relationship was just, um, the, deep level of trust between our, between us. You know, that foundation between like, if you are opening up your relationship, having a really strong foundation with the primary person that you're with is so crucial. If you're just, you know, if you're just like, I'm polyamorous and you're out there with a bunch of other people, but single in your, in your personal life, I mean, that's basically dating. What's the difference?

Leah | SxR Host:

Right, right. Yeah, I think some people are really, they, they might believe in the ideal of polyamory, but that's not necessarily... There's another motivation that oftentimes is driving it, you know. I feel like sometimes it's people should maybe more identify as a swinger instead of a Poly person because they're not really investing their heart. They're more just out to have sexual experiences and that's awesome, no judgment. But I think that gets, the language gets really confusing for people and I think sometimes that is what trips up ourselves and others is because our expectations end up, maybe our expectations are assumed. You know, and we're not good at communicating what all of this is, which is why I think the idea of having a coach is so smart because you can unpack and unearth more of your own truth and then find ways to, like, hear yourself say it out loud so your clarity gets more crystal and you're able to really own and someone's there to help you see your blind spots and your shadow and help you uncover that. And because it is, it can be risky, especially when you're in a committed relationship that you don't want to jeopardize. And you know, it's high stakes. And so like you want to have these experiences and you both want to feel free and expansive, but there can be some loss as a consequence. And so navigating that and being awake to that, I think holds someone like me back. And I think that there is probably some interesting work that could be processed and, and looked at and, and so that one can have those expansive experiences. You just have to, I guess you have to want it bad enough.

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

Yeah, that's what I was going to say, like, that requires putting effort and energy into it.

Leah | SxR Host:

like you gotta have enough desire for it to go through all that.

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Like, where do you want to be putting your attention and your focus.

Leah | SxR Host:

Yeah, and how much energy do you really have? I mean, I think the thing that is, that can be a little consuming is you gotta measure your libido with your other energy for your life and other responsibilities that you have. And I think it'd be really taxing if you're not also very sensitive to what you've got inside to give.

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

Yeah, exactly. You have to weigh it all out. And I think, um, and I think just be really honest with your partner and just even weigh out what is, what is it gonna, what, what will it be like for them? Are they willing to do the journey with you? Are they willing to, um, go through the effort and the work polyamorous relationship? Or, or are they, you know, already full in their lives? So there's a lot of different factors and definitely having somebody guide you who has been doing it for some time I think makes a huge difference. And it's going to give you a much smoother experience. So reach out to Jennifer if that is something that you are looking into and wanting to create in your partnership.

Leah | SxR Host:

Yeah, and again, it's not a one size fits all, you know, she was thinking, you know, it would be really great to have her back on and talk about what if your partner doesn't want to and you do. Well, she was in that dynamic, you know, like she, she really fully explored that and I don't know that there's just one answer that someone can answer for that because it's all personal.

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

Yeah, those usually end up ending. Like, the other, the other person will do it for a little while and then, you know, either, either the one who wants it so bad will have to acquiesce and give that up or the other person will be like, I don't really want this and that will be the end. So, um, I've seen that happen many multiple times here in Santa Cruz. So, it is so rare. It is very, I feel like it's rare. Maybe it's not. Maybe it's just The, the, the realm that I am in where to actually do it successfully and to do it well, to be in a, a monogamous or to be in a primary partnership with somebody, and then to open up and explore with other people, but she's doing it. Jaya's doing it. I mean, we know of a few professionals in the world who are doing

Leah | SxR Host:

my god I know so many people who are doing it and doing it. Well,

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

You do. Okay. I don't

Leah | SxR Host:

Yeah. Yeah, so many Yeah,

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

Well, then it's totally possible.

Leah | SxR Host:

Also like I would definitely encourage you all to listen to Jennifer. How do you say your last name? Is it

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

Kaila,

Leah | SxR Host:

Kaylo. Jennifer Kaylo, k a y l o, is her last name, and it's the Jennifer Kalo podcast. I have listened to it. She's got so much, she's got great content, really interesting stuff. And from the kink perspective, um, to non-monogamy, the whole nine yards. So go check her out if this is, you know, subject material that's peaked your curiosity or maybe you're already thick in it and we would love to hear from you. And we'd love to know what else around this topic of polyamory, multi relationships, open relationships, all of this stuff do you want to know more about and we'll get someone on the show. So have a great day, Willow.

Dr. Willow | SxR Host:

Bye honey. We'll see you next time.

Leah | SxR Host:

Love, love, love.

SxR Announcer:

Thanks for tuning in. This episode was hosted by Tantric Sex Master Coach and Positive Psychology Facilitator, Leah Piper, as well as by Chinese and Functional Medicine Doctor and Taoist Sexology Teacher, Dr. Willow Brown. Don't forget, your comments, likes, subscribes, and suggestions matter. Let's realize this new world together.

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Dr. Willow Brown

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Leah Piper

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