The Sex Reimagined Podcast

Beyond the Bedroom: Enriching Intimacy in 12 Ways

• Dr. Willow Brown and Leah Piper • Season 2 • Episode 63

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Even if you think you have amazing intimacy already, we guarantee you'll learn something new from this episode. Tantric and Taoist intimacy experts Leah Piper and Dr. Willow Brown will give you a whole new appreciation for the richness intimacy can bring into our lives by diving deep into the 12 types of intimacy you can experience beyond sex. We share our own stories and struggles with cultivating intimacy in these areas and provide practical tips and tools anyone can use to strengthen their intimate bonds with romantic partners, friends, family members, and more.

 Explore how to cultivate deeper connections through:

  • Sexual Intimacy - Going beyond sex to true vulnerability and presence
  • Emotional Intimacy - Being seen and sharing dreams together
  • Creative Intimacy - Co-creating art, goals, and memories that bond you
  • Recreational Intimacy - Having fun through shared interests and hobbies
  • Work Intimacy - Supporting each other's careers and collaborating
  • Intellectual Intimacy- Having deep conversations and mutual interests
  • Aesthetic Intimacy - Appreciating beauty, culture, and tastes together
  • Crisis Intimacy - Being there for each other during life's hard times
  • Commitment Intimacy - Devoting to your relationship's growth and vision
  • Conflict Intimacy - Turning towards each other to deepen trust
  • Communication Intimacy - Being heard and understanding each other's values
  • Spiritual Intimacy - Experiencing awe, belonging, and meaning together

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Leah:

Hey there, it's Leah, your Tantra expert at Sex Reimagined.

Willow:

And Dr. Willa Brown, your Taoist expert. We are so excited about today's episode, which is all about the 12 different styles of intimacy that you could partake with, not only in your intimate relationship with your partner, but in life in general with all the intimate people that you love and connect with.

Leah:

you're going to fall in love with these 12 different styles. Some of them you have never even heard of before. So be sure to get your pen and paper out. You're going to want to take notes on this one, y'all. So tune in, turn on, and fall in love

Willow:

with us.

Leah:

And these 12 different styles of intimacy.

Announcer:

Welcome to the Sex Reimagined Podcast, where sex is shame free and pleasure forward. Let's get into the show.

Willow:

Hello, hello, hello. Today we are talking about 12 different types of intimacy I mean, who knew there were so many? There's probably more than these 12, but these are top 12 we're going to cover.

Leah:

Yeah, and really, I think we'll discover that this even goes beyond just our partner. I mean, a lot of you are going to relate this to your partner, but you're also going to relate it to like your family or your best friend or people, your co workers at work, you know, because intimacy isn't just sexual intimacy. I think that's a big kind of common mistake when people hear intimacy, their mind immediately goes to sexual intimacy. But intimacy is so much deeper than that. It's so much broader than just what happens in the bedroom. And when we have intimacy outside the bedroom, it only makes the sexual intimacy so much sweeter, so much more delicious, don't you think?

Willow:

Oh yeah, you know the old adage, into me I see, that's what intimacy is, it's being able to see into another person and to see them so clearly and for them to see you so clearly, to really truly be seen by another, that's what pure true intimacy is. And we do, we have it with our kids, we have it with our, our siblings, we have it with

Leah:

Our

Willow:

dearest friends, definitely have it with our pets. And, um, it's, it's, um, one of those things that feels so good, so nourishing for the soul. I almost feel like, you know, we're living on this material, 3D, physical earth plane. But then we have access to this spiritual higher consciousness plane as well. And it feels like intimacy is a bridge, a really beautiful bridge to those two planes.

Leah:

Yeah, so, you know, it's fun to see where we get inspired for some of these episodes and I just want to give credit out to, um, HelloRelish.com. They had an article on 12 types of intimacy and so bravo to them. I thought this was, um, a really fun topic. So we're going to dive right in. And the first, uh, should we go backwards or should we go front?

Willow:

I think go front. Let's start with the most obvious form of intimacy, darling. Which is? Sexual intimacy.

Leah:

Yes! So, sexual intimacy. What do you think, Willow, makes sexual intimacy different than sex?

Willow:

Ah, what a fun question. Well, I mean, sex, yeah, sex comes in all forms. We've all had monkey sex before. We've all had jack, jackrabbit hammer sex. That's really not intimacy. We've all done sexercise. I mean, you get a good workout, but it's definitely not intimacy. I would say one of the things that really makes sexual intimacy Intimate is connection through the eyes, connection through the breath, being able to breathe each other's breaths, being able to sound together, being able to move together in a rhythm. a rhythm that creates a language that doesn't need words, you know, it becomes this beautiful dance of your bodies, and it's such a powerful, powerful way to bring vitality and health to your body.

Leah:

I think also sexual intimacy, what's unique to other types of sex is it requires a certain amount of vulnerability.

Willow:

Yeah.

Leah:

And that requires trust. And that requires presence. And so, it's like those big three giants of like, if you want sexual intimacy, it's like you're showing up naked. More naked than when just your clothes

Willow:

Then just

Leah:

is like, my soul is naked. My heart is open. I'm dropping in to an emotional sensation that is, is on the deeper end of the spectrum when it comes to what we co cultivate. Because we can have sex with someone and it's all about the friction. It's about getting off and it's not really about connecting with the other. It's more focused on what am I getting from this? Or what am I like projecting or giving But it's not like a, oh you're shaking my soul right now.

Willow:

It's not a co creation in that case, right? Yeah, and I think, you know, the way that we teach tantric, uh, practice is, you know, to set up sort of a ritualistic, a ceremonialistic type of environment, and to set intentions with each other, and that can be a really powerful way to create a strong, intimate, sexual bond with your partner. To do it a little differently than you have in the past, where it's like, let's just get together and have sex and get our yaya's off and roll over and go to sleep. Let's actually set aside time to talk about what it is that we are wanting to manifest, wanting to bring more to the table in our lives together and as individuals, and, you know, and to use your creative forces of sexuality that creative life force energy to use it to co create together. I actually just got to do this the other night and it was so beautiful and it was, you know, it was like, we both want similar things in our life. We're not a partnership for each other, but we want the same things. And so, when this person was getting close to their aroused, orgasmic edge and peak, I was holding the vision for them to really get and have this beautiful life partner that they seek in their life and, and, you know.

Leah:

Oh, I'm so glad you brought that to the table because we can have sexual intimacy with someone who's not our spouse or our beloved or even like someone we're necessarily dating because in Tantra we really encourage Tantra buddies where you're practicing how to be good at sexual intimacy. And you're showing up for each other and you're showing up And you're making medicine so that each of you are getting and creating what you most want in your life. And sometimes the best person to do that with is a, is a friend that you trust. Is to say, we're going to break up the roles of giver and receiver right now, and as the giver I'm going to be so here for your pleasure, I'm going to be so here for your manifestation, I'm going to be so here for your healing. That I'm going to help you pull into your life, your, your, your great desire. And for a lot of us, that is pulling in our life partner. It's let's do this for each other. We've touched on that in other episodes. And so sexual intimacy isn't always just with your long term partner. You can have sexual intimacy with someone without ever penetrating each other's

Willow:

Genitals.

Leah:

right? It can be. A deeply moving sensual massage and that can be sexual intimacy. You could be there for each other, each having an orgasm, but never even touching each other. Maybe you just touch yourself and they're holding space for you. I mean, I know these are some concepts that people have never thought of before, but there's

Willow:

That's what sex reimagined is all about.

Leah:

right. That's right. We should maybe have some real specific episodes where we really talk about, um, I'm gonna make a note of that. Non... Like... Sensual....

Willow:

practices.

Leah:

practices that don't involve having, like sexual practices that don't involve having sex. That people can, that Tantra buddies can start to explore. And also, like, me and Matt can do those practices. And we are in a committed marriage, you know, like we, him and I have, and, and maybe we should put that on date night, because it's really fun to have sexual intimacy without doing the doing thedirty, baby. Yeah, it's like, okay, we're gonna just have make out night. Without

Willow:

intercourse. Yeah. It builds a lot of, yeah, it builds a lot of anticipation. It's actually a great way to like, get, you know, I'm always talking about the pot of boiled water and most, most vulva owners, when they come to a sexual experience, they're coming with a very cold pot of water. And most, um, penis owners, when they come to a sexual experience, they're coming with at least a warm boil already going. So, this kind of practice, even with your, your husband or your spouse, your very committed partner, having um, a non sexual sexual practice, or a non, you know intercourse sexual practice with them is a great way to start bringing that pot of water up to nice rolling boil and carry that boil around for the next few days.

Leah:

It's also a really great way, if you are in a relationship, a long term relationship, that sex is been on a bad foot, so to speak, it hasn't been working, you feel like failures, you can't even imagine going, okay, we're, talk about intimacy, what intimacy, there's no way we're going to start having sex right now, like, that's too big, you need a, as Dr. Ash would say, scaffolding. To like, find ways where you can start to find each other again, because you're so far apart, right? So having intimacy practices in every single one of these things on our list are great intimacy practices that can bring a couple that has had a lot of issues back on the same page. And so sometimes when it comes to sexual intimacy, You're not ready to jump into bed in the way that most of us think about sexual intimacy. You're not ready to start having penetration. You're not gonna do the normal sex thing. You gotta just, you're just learning how to get along again and get on the same page and

Willow:

Which brings us to emotional intimacy.

Leah:

That's right.

Willow:

Yeah, because, I mean, if there's not an emotional connection, if you're really just living, like, separate lives, like living like housemates together, a lot of relationships can get like that. They become transactional. And, um, and there's a, a lack of emotional intimacy, a lack of emotional connection. And this is the piece where it's like, I just don't feel seen by you. Or, I, I remember my last relationship right before ended, I looked him dead in the eye and I was like, I feel ignored by you every single day. And, you know, he didn't, he couldn't receive that. Like he couldn't see that. So it was like there was no way to get over that hurdle. And sometimes that is the case and it is so hard to unravel from a long term relationship. So we know. We've been there. We get it. We understand. But if there if you cannot get to a place of emotional intimacy then I mean try some of these practices that we have we actually have a whole course called the king and queen of hearts and in that course there are some Phenomenal practices to try with your partner, your long term partner, in order to start to build this deeper emotional intimacy. Most of us just don't know how to do it. We've never been taught. We don't have any practices for it. We have no idea how to do it. And there are ways. There are practices out there.

Leah:

Yeah, I think also with emotional intimacy, and I think this is so key for people who crave to be in a long term relationship. If the emotional intimacy is missing, the relationship doesn't last very long. And so what are some of the key things when it comes to emotional intimacy? It's you have to have enough trust within yourself and your partner that you can share honestly. That you show up and you choose to share vulnerably. That you actually create closeness. By being able to take those sorts of emotional risks with each other, which sometimes means, okay, approaching conflict and not being avoidant. Um, also, to be able to not just achieve your dreams, but to keep creating, like, shared meaning with each other. One of the ways that, Matt and I really do this, is we just have open ended conversations. So it's like, it's kind of one of those fun, kind of silly, like, if we had all the money in the world, what kind of vacation would you want to take? Or how would you remodel the kitchen? Or, you know, um, what would you, some people, they think about, like, their kids. Like, if we had another kid, who do you think they would look like, me or you? You know? It's sort of these dreams that you keep on sharing with each other and I think we get so caught in routine and living life that we forget to invest in our emotional intimacy. And I, just speaking for someone who's, who's now been married, we're going to be approaching our 7th year anniversary. I feel like there are times when I avoid being vulnerable.

Willow:

Mm

Leah:

Especially if it's, if I don't think I'm going to be heard, like you were saying with your relationship. It's kind of like, I'm not going to get what I need, so I'm not going to try, by bringing this thing that I feel tender about because it already feels like high risk. And so sometimes we might go to a friend to get that emotional intimacy. But,

Willow:

Lot of times we

Leah:

A lot of times we do and that's okay too. But I think that if we can't do it with our partner then let's go get some therapy because all it means is that we don't have a communication skill that the relationship needs so that our partner can be the safe place we go to, like their home.

Willow:

Yeah, and it also might mean that you don't trust yourself enough with that person. Like, you don't trust that no matter what happens with this external relationship, that you won't be able to find your way back home to the inner beloved within yourself. And I think that's true for so many people. It's like, well, I'd rather be with this person who doesn't really see me and I don't really have that much emotional intimacy with because I don't want to be alone. You know, I'd rather stay in this than be alone. So, it's like, there's a place inside of you where you are alone, and you're robbing yourself of being in that true, deep connection with your outer beloved as well. So, there is, um, you know, even, in therapy for that too. Finding place of deep trust inside of yourself, because only when you truly, truly trust yourself that you've got you and you've got your inner beloved intact and in place and strong, and, and resilient, that you can actually trust yourself with another. It does take a lot.

Leah:

Yeah, yeah, I think cultivating self trust is, you become such a good partner to yourself and to others when you do that work. And let's say you've got a partner that's coming home, they've had a bad day. One of the best things you can ask them is, what do you need from me right now? Would you like me just to hold space and just be a good listener? Do you want help problem solving?

Willow:

Mm-hmm.

Leah:

Or do you need a distraction?

Willow:

Mm,

Leah:

And a lot of people miss the would you like a distraction? Because sometimes I know for me, I'm spinning out on something. And I've already talked about it three times. I'm getting nowhere. And I actually just need someone to take me out of my head.

Willow:

Yeah,

Leah:

just

Willow:

off the hamster

Leah:

distract me. Let's go to a movie or make out with me or let's cook dinner together. You know, just like take me out of this spiraling thought, right? So that's a good tip, everyone. So ask your partner, would you like help solving a problem? Would you like me to just be a good listener or would you like a distraction?

Willow:

Yeah, and I love how you're giving, um, A, B, C, because especially for women's brains, that works really well. They get to choose, you know, and men's too. It's like, I don't have to think about what I want from you. That's good. Let me just pick A, B, or C. That's really helpful in communication. Um, so that kind of takes us... I'm going to jump around a little bit because that sort of moved us down into the creative um, intimacy. You were talking about, you know, let's dream together. What would it be like to, if we had all the money in the world, what kind of vacation would we take or how would we remodel the kitchen, you know, that kind of like designing your future together and, and playing with um, what's possible in your lives as a union. Uh, is really this beautiful creative intimacy, which I feel like it brings a lot of passion and a lot of fire to the enter, to the

Leah:

Yeah, it really brings a lot of closeness, like you feel like, okay, we're doing this life together. You know, um, one of my favorite birthday presents Matt ever did is I had never ridden a horse before and so he found like a petting zoo and horseback riding and we went horseback riding for an afternoon and it was like, I really felt listened to, like he heard that I'd never been horseback riding and then he planned something special so that I could experience it, you know. And that was really creative on his part, and, and look, I'm remembering it years later, you know, and when I remember it, I think, oh, that's my guy who did that, you know. And so these creative things that you plan, it's like creative life goals, creative personal growth work you can do together. Like taking him a workshop together. We did, um, we went to Greece and did a, uh, what's his name, um, the now guy, Eckhart Tolle, um, workshop, you know. And so it's like when you can do things that are creative, that bond you, and that create memories, um, And like cooking classes, right? Or, or doing something together that you co create together. He bought a mannequin recently. It's the creepiest thing. He bought a mannequin because he wants us both to paint it.

Willow:

Oh,

Leah:

you can do your dots, you know, I do these mandala, oh, he's like, you can do mandalas all over the mannequin and I can do something really creepy and fun. And I'm like, sweet, let's do it! Um, hahahaha

Willow:

Once you have it. all painted, you can start practicing Shabari on it.

Leah:

Exactly, exactly. These are great, creative, intimate ideas. Okay.

Willow:

you go.

Leah:

which kind of brings us, you know, that's

Willow:

To the aesthetic,

Leah:

Well, I was going to say recreational.

Willow:

Oh, okay, yeah,

Leah:

so if you think like number four would be recreational, it's doing, having shared experiences together. You know, there's lots of things we don't have in common with our partners.

Willow:

Yeah.

Leah:

And that can be surprising in the beginning because in the beginning it seems like oh my god, we're like

Willow:

We have everything in common. Yeah,

Leah:

But that kind of wears off and you realize I really don't like the same TV shows as you do and I really can't stand all the sci fi you watch and I can't stand all the romance novels you read and you know, like, Matt and I have very different tastes when it comes to books and television. Um. And so you've got to stretch yourself. Again, that kind of brings the creative piece into it, but recreational, you've got to do some things together, otherwise you drift apart.

Willow:

Yeah, I mean, and, and sometimes you don't love doing what your partner loves to do, but still just, you know, finding some enjoyment in it, you know. If it's cooking classes, or if it's hiking in the wilderness, or whatever it is, just like, something that, um, even though, you may not absolutely love to do that thing, you know they love to do it, and so when you do it with them, it's like you're offering a gift to the union of you two.

Leah:

And you know, like, I don't like to work out. Matt is committed to working out and, and I, because he values that and I know that I should value it, I show up for it and I try to show up for it with enthusiasm and as a result I've affected really important change in my life. And that would have been a lot harder if I was with a partner who, that that wasn't a strong value of theirs.

Willow:

hmm.

Leah:

That I've received great benefit from. Now, do I still like it at his level? No, I don't. It's still my self resistance. But, um, I'm really glad that we get to do that together. And then sometimes our recreational stuff is with other people. Like, you know, I've just discovered this aerial, acrobatic, um, studio here in Carmichael. And you can, where you're in the, I don't know, what are they like, silk?

Willow:

Yeah, Silk.

Leah:

you get to do yoga and go upside down and you're in these harnesses and, um, and then they do other acrobatic stuff and Matt's not going to do that with me but I've got girlfriends who I can share that with. And we need intimacy with these other people too.

Willow:

Yeah, absolutely. We need intimacy with our friends, with our community, with our, with our, even the people that we work with. When we get each other, when we see each other, we have an easier workflow together. So, I mean, that could take us down to the intimacy of working together. And when you're in your, your partnership, it's not about like your careers matching up or anything, but just having a sense of, um, being able to manage life together. Manage the house together. Manage your finances together. Manage these more work y, yeah, career support as

Leah:

Like you want to feel like your partner is supporting your career goals and your career dreams. And when you are having a career crisis, that they are there for you. They're not piling on criticism, but you're probably already piling on yourself if you're in a, if you're up against a wall. Um, and then also I think it matters to have a work intimacy within the workplace. So that means with your co workers that you've got mutual trust, respect, and high regard for each other. And when those things are there, you're willing to be vulnerable with those people. And those people become important people in your life.

Willow:

Yeah, And

Leah:

back and you're part of a team.

Willow:

yeah, you start to appreciate them for all that they bring to the table and even, you know, if they don't do it the way you think it should be done or the way you would do it, you can start to like zoom out a little bit and appreciate that they're doing it the way that they're doing it because it makes sense in their brain. Which then you're, again, you're seeing them and you can connect with them on that piece and be like, oh, I see that this makes sense in your mind and it makes sense to me as well, but this also would make more sense. So then therefore you're creating this easier workflow together with the people that you are actually doing work in the world with.

Leah:

Yeah, so that's work intimacy. And there's also intellectual intimacy. I feel like, um, that's a place where you and I have a lot of common ground. Um, Willow, it's like we can come up pretty quickly with ideas and things that we want to create, and we're oftentimes in alignment and there's congruency from a place of values and, and a place of like going, okay, we're going to get this and this is how we're going to get it done. Um, and then if something is disruptive to that, we show up in our friendship and make space and our flexible and mutable go, okay, well then let's make a change, you know. This outline, we're not executing it as expected and that's okay, we're gonna take a left turn and we'll re evaluate what the, um, what the goals are with this. I think with Matt, he's very intellectual. I mean, just look YouTube, um, history and you're like, oh my god, this guy. Uh, and so.

Willow:

He likes information.

Leah:

He loves information. I mean, you should see him on Facebook. Like the conversations he has on Facebook, I can't even follow. It's like completely over my head. And, and so we've had to really make some agreements of going, you have to get some of your intellectual needs met somewhere else. Because this, not all of these conversations are, um, interesting to me. I'm sorry. Like, I can't go there with you. All I do is get upset. And then I'm upset. I'm having an upsetting conversation. And you don't

Willow:

you upset about it?

Leah:

Oh, I can't even, I don't, all I know is that sometimes, like, it comes at me and I think I either have to argue the point, like, I'm supposed to be the person that is standing for the opposite, or it'll be something I don't agree with. And then I think I'm supposed to agree more, I just, I find myself going into conflict. And it becomes hell for either one of us, and I'm an emotional person. He's just trying to have an intellectual, non emotional conversation, and I'm like, you picked the wrong person to bring this topic to right now. I'm not even capable. Um, I'm like, you need, you need pals to, to work out this brain space.

Willow:

Oh my god, I love it. You know, the last Beloved I was with, I was just like, it was so perfect. I was like, we will never get bored with each other. Like, we were just on the same page when it came to intellectual. You know, it was just like, everything. Like, we could read all the same books, go to all the same events. It's like, just really, um, really in alignment with each other as far as that intellectual piece goes, that intellectual intimacy, where we just find everything so interesting, the same stuff.

Leah:

you gotta have something there. If

Willow:

you gotta have something there...

Leah:

cause I broke up with someone over having not enough intellectual intimacy.

Willow:

But if you can have a lot, I think it's, it's great, if you can find that, yeah, it's really nice, yeah.

Leah:

um, okay, so now let's go to Aesthetic, because I

Willow:

Aesthetic is an interesting one. Aesthetic intimacy. Like, what does that even mean?

Leah:

What does that even mean? Well, so, what that means is that you have an appreciation for beauty in a similar form or fashion. It's like, where I really feel like I have this is with a couple of my sisters. Um, where one really knows how to make a space beautiful and she's just got a great eye. And another one really has a great eye for fashion. She's in the fashion industry and has been very, very, very successful. She always has incredible style. Um, and even with Matt, Matt is a very unique, he has an eye for jewelry. He makes most of all of his own jewelry. Um, he's always, he's just... Uh, he's so unique and he expresses that through how he dresses and the things that he collects, even the shit he puts in his pockets, um, really is so remarkably unique and, and so I think when you appreciate how people adorn themselves or How they create space, the kind of space they want, they feel the best in. You can learn so much about somebody by how those things matter to them. And, and if they don't matter to them, they don't matter for you, then you might, that may be a really shared aesthetic intimacy. And if those things do matter to you, then you have so much to talk about and so much to share and, you know, you go to shops together or you make things together or you just appreciate, um, their collection of things.

Willow:

Yeah, I had a, um, a couple friends once, a long time ago, they're not together anymore, but they would always get a canvas, a blank canvas. And she was a poet and an artist, drawer, painter, and he was really into painting. And so they would co create these beautiful pieces together, where like, one would just walk up to the canvas and work on it for a few hours. I mean, it wasn't... It wasn't, you know, it wasn't like they were standing at the canvas together doing it, but then the other, whenever they felt creative, they would go up and add to it, so they would kind of just add to it back and forth, and the pieces that came out of them were always just, like, full of poetry and beauty and aesthetic. So talk about bringing creative and aesthetic intimacy together. I always think of like aesthetic intimacy, you know, one of the easy places for us to drop into it with another person is the sunset, you know, or that beautiful tree over there or nature, you know, that's an easy place for us to, to be bonding over something beautiful with anyone in our

Leah:

Yeah, and so that could be like, you know, your love of hiking or your love of RVing or your love of camping. Yeah, like sunsets or sunrises, like you're the people who are going to wake up for those, you know. Um, who might even choose destinations because of the sunsets that they are notorious for. Um, I think that that's, that's really cool. Also, like my sister and her wife, they love to go to plays. They live in Detroit, and there's now like Broadway in Detroit. And, um, they see so many live performances, where my brother and his wife, they love to go see live music.

Willow:

Okay. There you go.

Leah:

Uh, my sister and her new boyfriend, they love to go to breweries. Ha They love

Willow:

Sometimes they're aesthetic at a brewery. Yeah, especially these days.

Leah:

Yeah, yeah. Culture, music, the way things taste. So that is a fun one.

Willow:

Let's drop into the intimacy of commitment. Let's get to the hard ones at the end. Let's talk about commitment. Now we're starting to transition a little bit from all these fun, light forms of intimacy to a little bit more challenging ones. So, commitment can be a challenge for a lot of people. And it's not so much about, like, committing to the relationship, but really just just devoting to your own self, your own inner work. And, um, and even committing together like let's, let's have this, you know, this brings in the creativity, like let's have this shared common vision of this dream vacation and let's work toward it together. So making that commitment together.

Leah:

Yeah, it's like working towards something that's important to both of you. So that could be buying a new home. And the way that you collaborate to save the money, to looking and shopping, to picking out the best realtor, like all the things it takes to buy a new home, you're in it together. Uh, to starting a family, that takes commitment. You gotta dream that together, or suddenly, oopsies,

Willow:

Yeah,

Leah:

We're pregnant. Um, how are you gonna handle that commitment of bringing life into the world? Are you on the same page? That takes commitment. Having a shared goal, especially with the big stuff, getting out of debt, things that take effort. You know, healing your, your broken trust. That's a commitment to each other. So I think commitment, intimacy through commitment, that can get any couple back on track if you can realign your values and look at achieving a long term task and being a team member with each other and going through the ups and downs together.

Willow:

Absolutely, yeah, and I think there's um... A level of commitment inside of yourself. You know, some people are commitment phobes and they don't really want to commit. Especially I live in like Peter Pan land, you know, where

Leah:

Puerhs are everywhere,

Willow:

Yeah, they don't commit to like events or things or going to things till the very last second because they want to keep their options open, you know. And, um, so I think there's a level of commitment to yourself as well. You know, like for example myself, I'm, you know, it's Saturday night tonight and I'm going to stay home and work on my book and go through it because I wanted to get it published, you know. And so that level of commitment to moving your own desires and dreams forward in your life, um, it lends itself to being able to commit in that way with another person. So, asking yourself, I think, you know, what is your relationship to commitment in and of itself?

Leah:

Yeah, yeah, what's, how do you feel about going the distance? And really following through and reaching the finish line on something. And maybe you have a harder time with longer term commitment. Maybe you're more reliable when it comes to shorter term projects. Okay, then start there, work there. But, um, cultivate what that means from an intimacy space and the reward that gets accomplished when you're in partnership with someone over a shared goal.

Willow:

Yeah. And how much closer you feel when you achieve that goal. And, as you're on your way to that goal, conflicts are going to come up. Like, the way that you move forward is going to, you know, there's going to be disagreement on that at certain points, like if you're trying to buy a new home, you know, there's going to be, oh, let's use this realtor, no, I like this one, you know, so conflict comes up. And conflict can create really powerful intimacy. Some of the most powerful intimacy. So that's, yeah, that's one of ours on the

Leah:

Yeah, and people don't think about that very often. How you fight, how you disagree, how you engage conflict can either create deeper wounds, deeper mistrust, turning away, or it can help you turn towards, it can bond you, it can increase trust, and it can solidify a bond. Really like nothing else, because the intimacy is being tested. Are you going to show up when the shit hits the fan?

Willow:

yeah.

Leah:

You know, and that, that is so powerful. Being someone who has some stick-to-it-ness, who, uh, doesn't run at the sign of trouble, but is willing to go... Um, I'm going to turn towards you instead of away when we're facing this difficulty. And, and it gets really tested. I mean it's one thing when you're facing something challenging that is outside of each other. When this is about the two of you, you know, I'm upset because you didn't show up when I really needed you to. I'm upset that this is the fifth work party that you've avoided attending when you've told me you would go, and then something comes up and it's now more important than, me feeling like, here I have all these work colleagues and you're not there again, you know, people don't even know, people are starting to doubt that you even exist.

Willow:

Yeah.

Leah:

you know, and it's like how you, how do you find connection

Willow:

Mm hmm.

Leah:

when someone is letting you know you've disappointed me, you know, I feel let down, I needed you and you weren't there?

Willow:

Yeah, there has...

Leah:

utilize that to create closeness? That's...

Willow:

there has... to be a softening. You know, I think the piece around communication, so this is another form of intimacy, is communication. I think that comes in really strongly when you're dealing with a conflict. And, um, instead of pointing the finger and playing the blame game, it's so important that we communicate in a way that our partner can hear. So one of the things I love to teach couples to do is to know each other's core values, like what does that person really value? Do they value fairness? Do they value integrity? Do they value love? Do they value, um, trust? Or what is it that they really value? And then speaking to them according to those values. You know? And saying something like, let's say they really value fairness. That was a big one for my ex. Let's say they value that. And so you would speak to them and you would say, gosh, I really, um, there's something that feels so important for me to talk to you about and I feel like it would create a level of fairness between us if you were to hear me and understand or a level of respect between us, you know, if you could hear and understand why I think This isn't fair. You know, somehow bringing those words in so that they're triggered, their brain is triggered to now then soften and listen to you rather than, hey, that's not fair, pointing the finger, but being like, hey, I feel disconnected to you because I feel like this piece was really unfair.

Leah:

Yeah. Um, there's a couple of, of tools that I've learned both from the Gottman's process in Conflict that called, um, unfortunate, unfortunate experiences. Like, you know, when you have a regrettable moment, you know, like how do you deal with your regrettable moments? And then also with the work with Byron Katie and, and, kind of blending those two for me have really helped. De escalate the conflict.

Willow:

mm hmm.

Leah:

And so when Matt says something like, I really didn't like that, you know, or you do this all the time, right? It's sort of an attack, it's a blame, it's whatever that is. It's so easy to want to get defensive. And so one of the things that I've had to really practice, and I don't always do it perfectly, but I try to remember to do it, is to go, where can I find it? They're accusing me of something. They're blaming me for something. Um, it's probably not totally fair what they're saying.

Willow:

Right.

Leah:

But there's probably truth in it.

Willow:

Yeah.

Leah:

So where can I find, where can I find it? And I may not always be able to find it in the circumstances they're talking about it, but I can probably find it at some point in my life that what they're accusing me of is something that I have done.

Willow:

Mm hmm. Mm

Leah:

And so then my response is to be like, I can find it. I can find it. And so share with me more about what this means for you, you know, like, and share with me why is, why does this, why is this important to you? Help me understand how this affects you, and how this affects us, and what the consequences are if we, you and I don't successfully heal this, or change this, or make solutions towards this. Uh, and I think one of the things that Gottman's do that I really like is, When your feelings are hurt, what does this remind you of?

Willow:

Mm.

Leah:

you didn't show up to that dinner party, to that work party, it reminded me of all the times my dad didn't show up to watch me play sports. He seemed to always show up to watch my brother play sports, but when it came to me, it was like my sports were never important enough. And it just made, it just brings up all the times I felt abandoned, like what matters to me doesn't matter to you.

Willow:

Mm.

Leah:

it makes me feel like diminished. It makes me feel invisible. It makes me feel like you don't care. And then it double downs on that when I tell you how important it is to me and then you still don't show up. It makes me just feel really sad. And then you get to get to like those more vulnerable feelings. It's like you've gone from pissed off and how dare you to I'm five years old again and my dad didn't show up. You know, and I think what helps the partner in those moments is when we have big reactions, it's never just the thing that we're fighting about. That thing has a history that feels like a lot of other things that have happened to us. And it's pointing to that ache and that hurt and then, and then you're vulnerable. Your dukes are down, you're tender, you're being real. They're able to feel you instead of feeling attacked by you.

Willow:

And any time you're vulnerable, you're in intimacy,

Leah:

Are in intimacy and then you get to hold each other and then the tears flow and then, and then you're felt. and like the bad guy and the good guy, that kind of judgment starts to dissolve and now you're just two people trying to figure out this love thing and it's

Willow:

Yeah. So beautiful.

Leah:

Yeah.

Willow:

So so beautiful.

Leah:

How about crisis?

Willow:

communication, and commitment all in one. Um, yeah, crisis. Let's drop into this one. Okay, so crisis is usually like, um, you know...

Leah:

Our dad just got a cancer diagnosis. Someone's dad or a child or, yeah, a car accident our teenager...

Willow:

There you go. Yeah.

Leah:

Just got laid off.

Willow:

Yeah, like something major is happening, and how do you show up for each other? How can crisis create a stronger, intimate bond between the two of you?

Leah:

Yeah, I mean, I think, I think a great example is just when our parents get sick. You know, like one of our parents is happening in that time of life and who shows up for you matters. You know, you really know who your friends are by the people who show up to your mom's funeral.

Willow:

Yeah. Absolutely.

Leah:

dad's funeral, you know, like, it's one thing to have all your friends show up when the times are great.

Willow:

Yeah. when you're having a party.

Leah:

But who are your friends when the times suck? Yes, like that I think is an interesting sign of intimacy because when you're going through it are, you know, a lot of people can't handle that. They get avoidant around that and but when people are really there for you and it's like man, you know, so sorry this is happening for you. Let me just be a good ear. let me hold you while you cry.

Willow:

I think that's one of the things that can really create a strong sense of intimacy during a crisis moment, is just somebody who is willing to be with you in the depths of despair that you're in rather than trying to sugarcoat it or fix it or Paint some spiritual picture about how it's gonna be great for you in the end, and you know. But actually just sit with you while you are in that deep place of loss of whatever it is that you're in the middle of going through, because you don't wanna If you want to rush through these periods of time, you need to be able to integrate them into your being and into your life so that you can become more whole and you can become a more resilient person. So friends who can sit there in that with you are amazing intimate partners.

Leah:

That reminds me of our episode with, um, Dr. Glenn and Phyllis Hill. Um, they were talking about how reassurance can rob us of intimacy. Because we're really not letting the person clean out and have a really finished feeling all their because we're like, oh, it'll be okay. No, no, you're so smart. Oh, don't worry about that you'll get the next job. Oh, no, no, no, you're just, you know, and it's like, it's like you're telling the person don't feel that way and you're stupid for feeling that way.

Willow:

Yeah, exactly. Don't, don't be in what you're in because

Leah:

Yeah.

Willow:

so amazing through my eyes, which is nice, but it's just, it's a spiritual bypass. If somebody's in it, be in it with them. Be present to that. What do we say? The three pillars of intimacy. We've already touched on them, but we'll say them again. Trust, vulnerability, and presence. And so Trust yourself so that you can trust the other person, then you can be vulnerable with them, then you're creating a cycle of trust and vulnerability between you and your partner, and presence just comes naturally and easily. So if you can really be present with somebody when they're in the midst of some big loss or crisis or moment of squeeze in life, then you're gonna create a strong strong connection with that person.

Leah:

And sometimes when you're in a crisis, you just need, sometimes just having somebody ask you questions that can just help you process how you're feeling, thinking, and believing about the experience. It's like, just when you say, well, tell me more about that, you know, and what else? You know, what else?

Willow:

Yeah. Mm

Leah:

And it's just like, tell me more, and what else? And share how this is important for you. And what does this mean to you? And let them, like, flesh out what it all means. Then they're able to see it and feel it and they've had a chance to hear it from their own being. And then they feel better until the next wave arrives, arises. And then it's like, okay, let me just be here while you move the content in the present moment. And so, That's a little bit on crisis, y'all. I think we're getting down to our last one, number 12. Unless there's anything more you want to say about communication, but do you feel like we kind of

Willow:

No, I think we're good. Yeah, if anyone has anything they want to add, leave us a little comment. And, yeah, we would love to hear from you, a few things to add. But spiritual intimacy is the final frontier of our list today and I would say, you know, this is such a big, important piece of my work and yours as well. I mean, spiritual partnership is, um, it's a rare thing and to be able to find it in life and to be able to co create it at a lasting rate with somebody is such a powerful gift for not just yourself, but the entire world. And it doesn't necessarily mean religion is involved or, you know, it's more of a philosophy. Like a spiritual way of walking through the world. Finding meaning in things, you know, finding that shared meaning in things creates this incredible sense of union between you and another.

Leah:

I think one of the things that makes spiritual intimacy really special that's different from the other ones is it generates belonging. When you feel like you are spiritually aligned with someone, maybe you took plant medicine together. Maybe you, um, can speak deeply on spiritual thoughts and concepts. Maybe it's a community of people who meditate together. Maybe it's your lover and you just feel like you go to these transcendent places in sex. Um, there's something about spiritual intimacy that creates such a deep sense of belonging. That how you think and feel in these places of awe, because I think the other thing that's really unique about spiritual intimacy, it's a shared experience of awe, of going, wow, that really took my breath away. Or wow, I really went someplace really deep. Or wow, I just went someplace really dark. And most people wouldn't know how to be there for me in this dark space. That can be a spiritual, sacred experience. And so when we have experiences of the sacred with someone else, and like you look at them and they look at you, man, and they were right there for it. Sometimes you don't even need words, it's so deep. You know, and it's like, did you just see that rainbow? It just feels like it landed in your heart. Those, um, Those are precious, and um, and yeah, they give you that feeling of of awesomeness. And so sometimes those sunsets just take us right into... so I think, I guess the thing I want to say about all of this is like, as we've gone through each one of these, what I'm experiencing is like, holy shit, they're so interconnected. Right, like so much of them are diving into another one, and another one, and another

Willow:

Oh yeah, they're woven. They're woven all together into one big beautiful ball of intimacy. So, I

Leah:

Yeah, it really, it really, reminds me of the word Tantra, the meaning of the word Tantra, which is, it's two Sanskrit syllables, tan and tra. One meaning weaving and the other one meaning union. And so when you think about intimacy and these 12 different types of intimacy, it's like they really start to weave into an experience of union that you get to have with other people. And at the end of the day, what intimacy gives us is a feeling for belonging. It gives meaning to our life, and it shares with ourselves and with others that they matter, and that we matter.

Willow:

Yeah. So powerful. I think intimacy is one of my favorite things in the whole world to be engaged in. I

Leah:

Yeah. And it can be hard, it can be challenging, it can be scary, and it is the most beatific, rewarding, nourishing, human, It's like, it's like I think that this all comes down to like why we come into these bodies.

Willow:

I think so too. I really do. I mean, it's just, it makes me feel alive. It makes me feel like, wow, I'm really really doing this life.

Leah:

Yeah, yeah, there's a humbling quality to it, isn't there? It's like,

Willow:

Oh yeah. Especially, especially when it fucking humbles the shit out of you.

Leah:

Yeah. Yes. And so we wanna hear from you, like, where do you feel like your intimacy skills are the strongest, which categories? And then where do you think yours are the weakest? I'm curious for you, and we will run down them, and then Willow, let's us both share where we're strongest and where we might have some work to do. Okay. So we're gonna run through them. I'm, I don't know that they're gonna be in order because we skipped all around, but, uh, we'll just go down the list. We have Sexual, Emotional, Intellectual, Aesthetic, Creative, Recreational, Work, Crisis, Commitment, Conflict, Communication, Spiritual. Top three, Willow.

Willow:

Uh, spiritual, sexual, emotional.

Leah:

Okay, um, I would say for me, commitment, creative, and emotional.

Willow:

I'm gonna have to say those top three for me are they're just my favorite. I mean, I feel like I'm very strong in almost all of them. I mean, I feel like the ones that I'm not strong in maybe are recreational, maybe aesthetic, but the rest I feel really pretty confident in.

Leah:

I think mine, surprisingly, that I can be, that I can struggle in is sexual. It's why I do the work that I do it's because I need the work that I do.

Willow:

I see. Interesting.

Leah:

especially in longer term relationships, I can check out in sexual. And so, having this career has held me accountable, and it's still not always the easiest thing for me, believe it or not. Um, so, there's that. I think... Let's see, what would be the two other ones that I struggle with? Intellectual sometimes. Intellectual intimacy.

Willow:

Yeah, it

Leah:

Um, and I Think conflict I think sometimes I've got really strong conflict intimacy skills, and other times I just really blow it.

Willow:

Yeah, it depends on the conflict your resources. How resourced you are as well. Have you slept? Have you eaten? Are you, you know, well fed?

Leah:

Yeah, like, I was just with all my siblings, um, for a Michigan trip and I, I noticed like, I was annoying some of the siblings. You know, I was like, I was kind of like, we would be in conflict and then how my tone of voice came out was really jarring. You know, and I didn't like that they thought it was a jarring, so I felt like their reaction to me was filled with contempt. And when I sat with it, I realized, well, you spot it- you got it, Leah. The way your tone was that initiated the bit of conflict was contemptuous. And I didn't like being called out for that. Now, no one's using those words, right? These are just everyone sort of reacting, but when I'm sitting and reflecting in my own space, I'm, I feel humiliated that I didn't handle things the way I would have preferred via communication and via conflict and my, and so what did I do? I withdrew.

Willow:

mm.

Leah:

Instead of just laying the cards on the table and saying I'm sorry there's a reason why we're not feeling the closest right now and that's because for me what is up is contempt and embarrassment and I feel judged and I want you to look up to me and you're not right now and that really rubs my ego wrong and so I'm just going to avoid and now everyone gets to just imagine what the fuck's wrong with Leah because I'm now avoiding, I'm taking myself out of connection and even now I've been owning this inside my being. I've only been home for a day or two. But I still don't know that I have the courage to clean it up. And say, you know, I apologize for that unfortunate, regrettable moment. And so I'm still sitting with that. I'm still like kind of holding myself in this place of going, well, look at me do this thing that takes me out of connection and intimacy. And I still don't know that I have the courage

Willow:

I like, yeah, I mean, and I like that you're bringing forth, and you're owning that piece, that it does take courage. And maybe you don't have it quite right yet, but what do you need in order to find that courage within, you know. Because intimacy takes courage, it really does, it's a scary thing. It's much easier to just skate through life without deep connections, in a way.

Leah:

Yeah. And so like what it brings up for me is I'm scared to be vulnerable, you know. I, I, I'm afraid of the awkward phone call. And I know a thousand percent that what that phone call would do and the reward for being vulnerable is I, all my siblings would feel closer to me and they would trust me more.

Willow:

Uh huh.

Leah:

You know, and they, and, and whatever plots and storylines they could make up in their head about what's really going on would dissolve because I would be telling the truth. You know, so then I'd be saving everyone a bunch of mental distress. So those are all good reasons for Leah to make that phone call. So, um, siblings, if you're listening to this and I haven't called you, maybe get on my ass.

Willow:

Well, thanks for being vulnerable with us today, Leah, and sharing.

Leah:

It's easier to be vulnerable with all of you than it is to pick up the phone. That's gotta be bypassing somehow.

Willow:

It's just being honest with where you're at in your process, you know? There you go. I mean, it's a process. Vulnerability is a process and um, intimacy is a process and, and you can't rush it. If you do, you're going to miss really important pieces.

Leah:

Yeah. And I can have a lot of compassion for the Leah that has felt uncomfortable through all of that. You know, and I think that's an important part of All of this is like the self compassion that we can cultivate when we do hard things, and then to remember to generate that compassion for others, knowing that they're going through hard things too, and all of that leads to intimacy.

Willow:

Absolutely.

Leah:

So with

Willow:

All right y'all.

Leah:

that was fun. Love, love,

Willow:

fun. We love you. We'll see you soon.

Announcer:

Thanks for tuning in. This episode was hosted by Tantric Sex Master Coach and Positive Psychology Facilitator, Leah Piper, as well as by Chinese and Functional Medicine Doctor and Taoist Sexology Teacher, Dr. Willow Brown. Don't forget, your comments, likes, subscribes, and suggestions matter. Let's realize this new world together.

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Leah Piper

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