The Sex Reimagined Podcast

Steven Kessler: Are Your Patterns Sabotaging Your Love Life? Stop Risking Your Heart | #84

• Leah Piper, Dr. Willow Brown, Steven Kessler • Season 2 • Episode 84

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Are you tired of experiencing the same conflicts and misunderstandings in your relationships? Do you wish you had a magic key to unlock the secrets of effective communication and deeper connection with your partner? In this groundbreaking episode of the Sex Reimagined Podcast, we sit down with Steven Kessler, the author of "The Five Personality Patterns," to explore the transformative power of understanding personality patterns in relationships. With his extensive background as a therapist and decades of experience leading workshops, Steven is the ultimate guide to help you navigate the complexities of personality patterns in relationships. 


Join us as we dive into:

  • The five fascinating personality patterns that shape our behavior and communication styles
  • Eye-opening examples of how these patterns manifest in real-life relationships and public figures
  • The surprising challenges and hidden blessings of each pattern type
  • Steven's transformative strategies for working with your partner's pattern to improve communication, reduce conflict, and foster personal growth
  • A profound understanding of your own and your partner's personality patterns
  • The life-changing realization that developing presence and breaking free from patterns is the key to personal growth and fulfilling connections


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Leah:

Hello! It is Leah, your Tantra expert at Sex Reimagined, and I am with the Glorious the Beautiful.

Willow:

Dr. Willa Brown, your Taoist expert, so thrilled to be here with you. Today we interviewed Steven Kessler, who is the author of The Five Personality Patterns, this incredible body of work that Leah and I use quite a lot in our own personal work with clients. And, um, Steven's been a marriage and family therapist for a long, long time. I mean, since 1984. He's been working with groups and leading workshops all around the world and helping men and women heal their wounds and grow into their adult selves. So it was such a pleasure to sit with Steven and learn more about his body of work that has been utilized by so many therapists around the world.

Leah:

Yeah, and I have to say, we talk about relationships, we even talk about presidents. But one of the things I've really loved about, uh, this body of work is how it can help you as a facilitator. So if you're a teacher out there, you're a workshop leader, tune in, this is the type of thing that you can gain a lot of insight from the front of the room. So, you know what to do.

Willow:

tune in, turn on and fall in love with Steven Kessler.

Announcer:

Welcome to the Sex Reimagined Podcast, where sex is shame free and pleasure forward. Let's get into the show.

Leah:

And we'll put in our basics now.

Willow:

Yes, exactly. Welcome Steven Kessler. Steven Kessler is the author of the Five Personality Patterns, a really incredible work originated by Wilhelm Reich and Steven has turned it into something very digestible and usable and it is a huge part of both Leah and I's work with couples, individuals, and everyone that we work with around their healing of their sexuality and their coming into wholeness. In their relationship to intimacy, love, and relationships in general. So Steven's going to share with us about these five personality pattern styles. And, and why they're different than, you know, other sort of personality styling types

Leah:

Yes, welcome Steven. It's an honor to have you.

Steven:

Thank you. I'm glad to be here with both of you. Um, yeah, these are, uh, patterns. Uh, they're different. There are other maps of personality that call their And they, what they are saying is that you are a so and so type and you will stay that type and that's the beginning and the end of the story. And what's different here is that A personality pattern is a, a way that you have learned as a child to try to feel safer. It's based on a safety strategy that you developed as a child, and also that each of us does more than one pattern. So, being in pattern is different from being present. And the goal for all of us is to be present in each moment. And by present we mean, actually with your attention Your attention free here in this moment, in the here and now, this place, this time, these people, what's really going on here, so that you can take in what is really going on here and what is going on inside you and compose a response to this situation that is actually a good response. That works for you and works for other people. That's different from being in pattern, in that a pattern is a conditioned response. A response that got conditioned into your body when you were young, usually before the age of 6 or 8. And, um, and if you are in a conditioned response, Automatic, involuntary, unconscious, sort of living in your body. It comes out whenever you get overwhelmed. Whenever you get upset. And that same old response comes out, even if it's not a good idea in this situation here and now. Maybe it worked with your mom and dad, or your older brother and sister, or whoever it was, when you were three, when you were five. Maybe it was the best you could come up with then. That was great. But, you might be now in a different situation. Say, in your workplace with your boss. Thanks. Say, on a date. Maybe it's not a great plan right now. But if you've ever noticed that you do, um, You sort of tend to do the same old thing, even if you had said to yourself, Oh, I hate it when I do that. I never want to do that again. Your body does it, and that's because you are going into one of these five patterns, and that's what your body does in that particular pattern to try to feel safer.

Leah:

Okay, so to like recap what you just said, what I, what I'm hearing, correct me if I'm wrong, is that I think what's unique about this system is it's a, it's a strategy, not a personality type. So it's, it's this conditioned thing that got wired into our nervous system when we sensed pain or threat or fear. And so therefore, as we grow into adults, this knee jerk reaction on how we react in order either to get safe or to get a need met. These things kind of jump in and we react in now as an adult, it kind of wreaks havoc versus, um, is helpful. And in so far that we've probably gotten feedback from other people that, God, I really hate it when you do this when we're in a fate, you know, I really can't stand it that you react like this and jump to conclusions or you withdraw or so on and so forth.

Steven:

Yeah, the phrase, you always do that. Mm hmm. That would be a signal, you know. Maybe you do always do that, or you certainly do it kind of habitually. That's probably not a conscious choice on your part. And if it were really the best possible response in this situation, both of you would be okay with it. Apparently it's not the best possible response. Yes. Mm hmm.

Leah:

know, you said earlier about like presence, right? If you're in pattern, then you're not in presence. And sometimes where I find myself is like, I'll notice, oh my God, I'm in pattern. And I feel like I'm present to the fact that I'm in pattern. And even though I may be what I consider to be in presence, it doesn't mean that I can get out of pattern super fast. I still might need some time before, which probably means I need more presencing

Steven:

Yeah.

Leah:

to be able to see everything clearly. But I do feel like at that recognition of I'm in pattern, I'm present.

Steven:

Yeah, we're talking

Leah:

a gray

Steven:

it as if it's black and white. It's not, it's, it's a spectrum and a person can be, you know, 90% present, but 10% still in pattern or vice versa, or any percentage you want. So yeah, let's admit it's, it's not a hundred percent, although we all know people for whom it is a hundred percent whenever. Something happens that they don't like, they flip into some automatic response, and there's kind of no reaching them at that

Leah:

Right. They're like hijacked.

Steven:

Hijacked is a good term for it,

Willow:

Yeah, and that, it turns into a ping pong game between partnership, like if you're in a partnership with somebody. You throw the pattern back at them, they throw it back at you, it's just a trigger fest before you know it.

Steven:

it is. And in a, especially in a love relationship, but almost any kind of relationship, the worst problem I've seen in, certainly in my practice as a marriage and family therapist, is that, The, the primary pattern that one person goes into, or the one they go into in this situation, is, causes them to do something which then puts the other person in overwhelm, puts them into pattern, and they do something that puts the first person even more into pattern, that scares the first person. So each person's safety strategy is actually scaring the other one.

Leah:

Right.

Willow:

It's a perfect storm.

Steven:

Yeah, a perfect story for it's the classic, the classic problem of, um, if you have aggressive and leaving pattern, the person who does aggressive pattern, maybe just gets excited and they say, Oh, let's do this. A big flow of energy comes up. Their sweetheart who does leaving pattern and is very sensitive to energy flow and scared of it. They freak out a little bit and they kind of leave their body. Person in aggressive pattern experiences them leaving and feels abandoned, gets more aggressive, bigger energy. Person in leaving pattern goes out to the stratosphere. You know, like they're in the Pleiades before you know it.

Willow:

my gosh.

Steven:

In a real way, neither person did anything wrong.

Willow:

right.

Steven:

They're both just trying to stay safe.

Willow:

I think that's one of the most important things we could remember when we start to study and understand these patterns is like, nobody's doing anything wrong here. This is just unconscious. It's subconscious. And so when we bring consciousness and light to it, we start to really see ourselves in a new way. We can see ourselves. How we are being in relationship with the other in a new way. So without further ado, I don't want our listeners to wait too long to understand what each one of these patterns are. So let's, let's go through them just to give a little overview of what

Steven:

so the easiest way to understand them, kind of the, the essence of each pattern, is its safety strategy. And there are five basic safety strategies. First is leaving, getting away from whatever is upsetting you, the person, the place, whatever it is. Second is going toward another person in that situation, even if that person is the one that is upsetting you, or scaring you, or whatever it is. Try to connect with them and try to get them to help you out and make it better for you. This is the, uh, the safety strategy that all Nursing babies use, right? Baby is unhappy, baby cries. Crying gets someone to come and help them, right? Are you tired? Are you cold? Are you hot? Are you scared? Are you, do you have gas, right? And it's the job of somebody else to come and fix it. It's a very legitimate thing. That's connecting with another person that leads to happiness. a person into merging pattern. Third one is, okay, something bad is happening. Uh, I don't like it, and I can't change it. There's no point in fighting it. So pull in, send your energy down into the lower part of your body and even into the ground underneath you to hide. Hunker down and hide. Wait for the storm to blow over. If as a kid you are losing all the fights, There's no point in fighting anymore. Your best strategy is to not fight, hunker down, let it blow over, let those crazy people fight it out, and then come back when it's safe.

Leah:

Right. Kind of sounds like a freeze response.

Steven:

I would differentiate it because the person doesn't actually freeze. They hide.

Leah:

Okay.

Steven:

difference,

Leah:

Yeah. Okay. Good distinction.

Steven:

I mean, freezing kind of implies losing awareness. A person, this is enduring pattern, or leads into enduring pattern, and a person who is caught in enduring pattern is perfectly aware, they just want you to go away. Like, stop messing with me, you know? You bother

Willow:

alone. I'm going to go over here and figure it out myself. There's sort

Steven:

figuring it out myself.

Willow:

mentality to

Steven:

And by the way, you can't make me.

Willow:

Yes.

Steven:

And they are right. You cannot make them. So, get over any illusion you have about that. Okay, that's third one. Fourth one is the opposite. Feeling scared, sad, upset? Bring all your energy up in your body. As much energy as possible. Send it out the front. At. Whoever is upsetting you and try to intimidate them, dominate them, basically, uh, coerce them into changing their behavior to be the way you want it to be. You're trying to dominate them. This works better if you naturally have a strong flow of energy. You have to have a big enough flow of energy to pull this off.

Leah:

Oh.

Steven:

And this fact is true of all the patterns. You have to have the natives. talents to make that safety strategy work for you, or it doesn't work for you. And if it doesn't work, you do, you abandon it. You don't keep trying that. You know, if you've, if you've raised little kids, they're very creative and they will try everything. And if something works for them, they'll do it some more. If it doesn't work, they try something else.

Willow:

else.

Steven:

Exactly. It's very pragmatic. So we've got leaving, connecting and merging, hunkering down, enduring it, letting it blow over, bringing energy up, being more aggressive, dominating. And the fifth one is known as the rigid pattern. And the problem is You know, somebody is upset with you, mom and dad, say you're being a bad boy or a bad girl. And, um, apparently this is a situation in which mom and dad have some, some rules about how you are supposed to be and how you're supposed to act and perform. And what you learn to do is to constrict the muscles in your, in your body. to narrow the flow of life energy through your core so that you don't feel as much inside. And since you don't have as many feelings to get in the way, you're more able to focus on your performance and your actions and do it the way they want. You're more able to be a good boy or a good girl. Follow the rules, you know, win the contest, get an A on the test,

Leah:

Right.

Steven:

your hair combed, stand up.

Willow:

Yes.

Steven:

and get approval. Exactly.

Willow:

if you are approved of if you are.

Steven:

Right.

Willow:

You have to do it right. Yep.

Steven:

So this gives rise to the whole love has to be earned problem. You know, you have to behave right in order to be lovable, because you're not lovable just for who you are. It's for your performance. So the kid starts to think, I am my performance. Everybody is their performance. It's not about your essence. It's not about your heart. We don't care about heart to heart connection. It's about performance. Think about, um, Mitt Romney. He's kind of the poster child for this. He is very outwardly successful, and he has a perfect family and a perfect house with perfect cars and all that good stuff, and he made a lot of money. And when he ran for president, he's a little stiff, he couldn't quite make that emotional connection with the voters, and they sort of said, I don't think so.

Leah:

right.

Steven:

So we've got leaving, merging, hunkering down, enduring. Pulling it up and getting aggressive and getting rigid. And it becomes rigid in the mind as well as in the body. The body gets stiff. The mind gets stiff. Like everything should be in order, should be in the categories assigned. We can't have any, any sloppiness or chaos here.

Leah:

I love looking at this through the lens of precedent and, um, uh, nominees.

Willow:

be the aggressive pattern?

Leah:

Yeah, like, like, could you, can you go through some nominees of like, and which one they might be?

Steven:

Sure. Bill Clinton was famous for, um, you know, the, the congressional people were giving him a hard time. I think Newt Gingrich was Speaker of the House at that time. And Bill Clinton would invite them all up to the White House, and he'd sit down with them, and he'd talk with them, and he would flatter them to the point where the joke was they would leave the White House having given everything away. They didn't even have their pants anymore, you know. And Bill Clinton. could remember not only the names of everybody he needed to to get help from, but the names of their kids, the names of their spouse, the names of their pets, he had it all figured out. This is, um, compensated merging pattern, a little, uh, sort of an extra layer on merging pattern, but it's still merging pattern. And he could use his skill at connecting to pretty much get people to give him whatever he wanted. His wife, Hillary Clinton, a little stronger in rigid pattern.

Leah:

Yeah,

Steven:

So, you know, the, the word on her has been that in private, when she's relaxed, she's kind of spontaneous and witty and a lot of fun. But in public, when she's like trying to present the, the good, the, do a good performance, she gets kind of stiff.

Willow:

Mm-Hmm.

Steven:

stiff as Romney, but pretty stiff.

Leah:

right. You can't feel that emotional connective quality that she's got emotional variety that she can kind of bring that kind of adds charisma to what she's saying. It's sort of devoid of a certain emotional fiber that I think people find charming or people find like they want to lean in. Yeah,

Willow:

yeah. They can relate to it.

Leah:

right,

Steven:

old political thing of people want to vote for someone that they like.

Willow:

Yeah. Yeah.

Leah:

Okay, cool. Who's next?

Steven:

I don't know of any, uh, candidates for president who really are strong in the leaving pattern.

Willow:

Yeah.

Steven:

Because who would want to go through that?

Willow:

Yeah.

Steven:

Firestorm, you know.

Willow:

It makes sense. That pattern would not do well running for president. It's too overwhelming and they'd just be out of there.

Leah:

Is there another well known figure that you might label or, or guess as to be a leaving pattern? Like, I start thinking of physicists or Nobel Prize winners

Steven:

Oh, yeah, obviously like Albert Einstein,

Leah:

Mm hmm.

Steven:

right? When people said, well, how did you come up with, uh, your theory of special relativity? He said, well, I imagined that I was riding on a beam of light and what would I experience there? Or he said it that, or they understood it that way. Now my guess is, he actually went and did it.

Leah:

You're right.

Willow:

Right. In his mind, yeah.

Leah:

Yeah.

Steven:

Well, in his mind, meaning he left his body.

Leah:

he, he went there, like, yeah.

Steven:

Yeah. People who do leaving pattern often are quite skillful at leaving their body. Will do that as part of leaving, to get away from the danger, and also can control it if they're, like, more developed at

Willow:

they're skillful at it,

Steven:

Yeah, and also he's a super mathematician.

Leah:

Mm hmm.

Steven:

Like, that's as head centered as you can get. And leaving pattern is more head centered.

Willow:

Mm hmm.

Steven:

Merging patterns more heart centered. Uh, enduring and, um, and aggressive patterns are more belly centered. You have to have a strong belly or you can't deal with that energy. Uh, and then rigid pattern is more head centered again. So a person,

Willow:

who's an example of a aggressive, I mean, I think of

Steven:

Okay, I don't think Trump is, but let me get to that in a minute. No, um,

Willow:

interesting. Okay.

Steven:

yeah, um, I would say John McCain.

Willow:

Okay.

Steven:

more aggressive pattern. You know, he was, he was a warrior. He's captured and he was tortured to the point where he can't even lift one of his arms anymore. And, um, and he never gave in. And he, they offered to send him home from the, the camp in Vietnam because they discovered his father was an admiral or a general or something. And they said, you know, well, we're going to release you. And he said, well, you're going to release all my men too. And they said, no, no, no. And he said, then I'm not going. This is the Code of the Warrior,

Leah:

right.

Steven:

And if you remember the, um, the debates between McCain and Obama, McCain would be kind of circling in the background being angry and like, Rawr! He's trying to get Obama to get mad, because he knows, Oh, look, a mad black man is scary to the white American people.

Leah:

Oh, interesting.

Steven:

will lose. If I can make him mad, he'll lose. And Obama, I'm convinced that he does, his combination is Enduring Pattern and Rigid Pattern.

Leah:

huh.

Steven:

Especially,

Willow:

primary for him?

Steven:

I don't know, but if you listen to his speech pattern, he has that Enduring Pattern speech where he says a few words. Little pause, and then there's a few more words, another pause, and then there's a few more words, another pause, while the person goes back inside and finds it, and then comes out. And with anybody who does enduring pattern, that's, that's quite common.

Leah:

a cadence to that.

Willow:

Yeah,

Steven:

And also, he was a, um, uh, a policy geek. I mean, he would know the details of things, just like Bill Clinton was a policy geek. I think his Backup pattern was also rigid.

Willow:

Interesting.

Steven:

maybe Obama is enduring pattern first and rigid pattern second. I'm not positive, but that's my take on

Willow:

Yeah, this is great. This example gives us, our listeners, a better idea, yeah, of what the styles are, of styles of protection. Again, it's not like your astrology or your Enneagram or your, um, human design. It's more like what you go into as a default to keep yourself safe and to keep, and to get your needs met.

Leah:

And yet there is a light side and a skillset that you can kind of tell through this presidential, um, example, that they're also using a strategy that influences others and, and or gets a job done That is something that could be perceived as like a talent or a skill,

Steven:

Yeah, because with each of these five safety strategies, as you do it over and over and it gradually becomes a self reinforcing, uh, personality pattern, you are also self reinforcing. Practicing the skills needed to pull it off, needed to make that one work. If you're practicing merging pattern, if you're practicing getting people to like you and solve the problem for you, you have to be able to get them to like you. You have to be able to make the heart to heart connection and show them that you like them so you get to be really good at seeing what's positive in people and flattering them and loving them and sending love to them and you also get good at evoking that from them.

Leah:

So being the merger pattern in the presidential lineup, I'm thinking of, um, I know his wife just died. He's also in hospice. I'm not sure if he's passed away yet. I'm

Steven:

Oh, you mean, uh, Carter,

Leah:

Is it Carter? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Would

Steven:

Jimmy Carter, Jimmy Carter and Rosalind, Rosalind, yeah. I don't know, I think, I think, uh, Jimmy Carter probably did rigid pattern as part of, I mean, he went into the nuclear submarine force in the, In the Navy, right? And that sounds pretty technical to me,

Leah:

Right, right. I guess I'm thinking of like his religious connection and his peace forward agenda and the work

Steven:

that's interesting.

Leah:

Israel and I think Palestine at Camp David and you know there was this really like Sweetness, it seemed. And to a point where people didn't quite trust that he could get the job done, which is why I thought maybe he didn't get his second term. Because it's almost like he was too nice and too sweet.

Steven:

yeah, that was exactly what the Republicans pinned on him during that

Leah:

Hmm.

Steven:

campaign. You know, Reagan was the, you know, I'm big and tough. With, uh, with an actor's, you know, soft veneer on

Leah:

Right, right.

Steven:

yeah. Um, let's go back to the, the Trump question for a moment, because I think this one is really interesting. Um, in, uh, these, these five patterns are part of normal ego development. Everybody has a couple of patterns, some people do three, as part of their, um, normal healthy ego development. Ideally, they go into the pattern more lightly, rather than so hard they get lost in it. But they develop the skills of that pattern, and that pattern does, in a real way, create the building blocks of their personality. That's why I talk about these as personality

Leah:

Oh, that's helpful.

Steven:

Outside of that, there are a couple of problems in psychology that are not part of normal ego development. One is borderline personality disorder, another is narcissistic personality disorder. And it seems to me, and it seems like pretty much all the psychotherapists who've Looked at Trump, agree with this. His basic issue is extreme narcissistic personality disorder.

Leah:

Hmm.

Steven:

which means that he doesn't, it means he didn't make it through the rapprochement stage in psychology. I know that probably doesn't mean much to most people. Um, but it means that instead of developing, um, a more mature ego structure, he went back towards the, the baby mother thing. And even to this day, at 78 years old, he constantly needs to feel admired by other people. He needs attention and he needs admiration, just like a little kid does. All the times when your young child goes, Mommy, look at me, you know, I can jump across this creek. I can tie my own shoes, you know, because they're genuinely proud of their accomplishment. And that's great. And they're really young. So this is stage appropriate for them. If you're an adult, it's not any so stage appropriate anymore, you know, so he's caught in that time of Feeling totally empty inside, not able to build a sense of core, not able to create real strength and will in himself. But only able to hone the skills of, um, getting attention from other people and getting approval from other people. And it's made him a masterful con man. It's made him able to read a room or read a crowd or even read an individual person and know exactly what they want to hear from him. And then he tells them whatever they want to hear. His whole thing of build the wall was not really an original policy idea with him. He was just talking to his advisors and saying, I need something to say in a speech, what can I say? And somebody suggested, try build a wall. And he tried it out and the crowd loved it. And he, with his skill at reading the crowd, immediately picked up on that. And when he picks up on you like this, he then expands it, he increases it.

Leah:

on it.

Steven:

Exactly.

Leah:

When he uses the energy. So, so with that explained, what about, how does this fit the pattern structure? Or,

Steven:

um, it's outside the pattern structure.

Willow:

But he's still running compensated oral.

Leah:

Or aggressive or what?

Steven:

well, I would say compensated oral, also known as compensated merging.

Leah:

Right.

Steven:

Um, as the, the main pattern, but I don't think that's the main governing thing in his personality. I think the,

Willow:

personality is the main

Steven:

the bottomless, yeah, the bottomless need for attention and approval is really what's driving him. And that's why when he lost the presidential election in 2020, psychologically he could not tolerate that.

Leah:

Yeah.

Steven:

may remember, um, Mitch McConnell said, you know, he'll be okay, let him cry it out. But he couldn't cry it out. Most people who lose a presidential election have the inner strength and the security in who they are to cry it out and do it. And though enough awareness of the needs of the nation, that they can go on television and they can say, you know, I want to concede, I've just called my opponent and congratulated them on winning this election. And, uh, you know, to my supporters, we fought the good fight and thank you all for all your work. And we'll, we'll come back and we'll do it again next time. We'll win them. We'll beat them next time.

Leah:

Right,

Steven:

He could not say that. Even though we have a lot of evidence that he knew he had lost, but psychologically, he couldn't tolerate that. So over time, he had to build this fantasy inside himself that he hadn't lost, that really he had won. So he's not a loser now, he's a winner. And important to recognize that in his father's eyes, winners were the golden boys and losers were nothing.

Leah:

right.

Steven:

So in a real way, he's also still trying to win his father's love.

Leah:

Sure.

Willow:

So fascinating. The psychology that, that, you know, that each individual plays out in order to make it through big losses or big overwhelms or big stressors or whatever. Oh, I want to, I want to kind of shift gears. Love this presidential talk, but I'm not a big politics person. So I'm a little bit

Leah:

Yeah, well, let's talk about relationships.

Steven:

It's quite alright. We can use movie stars or

Willow:

Yeah. Let's go into something a

Leah:

yeah, let's talk about lovers and like what's happening in the bedrooms and the kitchens and the living rooms between people. Sure,

Steven:

I just saw an opening there. I, um, if we talk about politicians or movie stars, we all have the names we can talk about. I'm not sure. How do we name lovers? Are we talking about behaviors or?

Leah:

yeah, I mean, I think it's like, um, we could

Steven:

Oh, here's

Leah:

star couples, right?

Steven:

Well, I actually don't follow movie stars, so I'm a little lost on that. Okay. Uh, you know, I know

Willow:

can just talk about the patterns and stuff. We can talk about, we can talk about our relationships. I, I was in a seven year relationship with somebody who ran the aggressive pattern and I run leaving primary and then enduring. I think he runs aggressive primary and then enduring. So we would meet on the enduring level. That's where we would jive. But when we would get triggered, we would jive. He would go into this like big energy at me. All I wanted to do was get out of there. So I often would, and then I would leave and I would be like, how come he's not coming after me?

Steven:

Exactly. Exactly. Now, this is the rule. You're supposed to come after me and apologize. What don't you understand about this?

Willow:

Right.

Steven:

This brings me back to something. Another thing about this I think is really important for us all to, to understand, and that is that of us has a a certain experience of the world that we have over and over all day every day, but we're not experiencing the whole world on all the channels of perception. We're not getting all the information. We're only experiencing our particular slice of it, whatever that slice, excuse me, whatever that slice might be, and therefore we think that our slice is the whole thing and that our slice is the same thing that other people are experiencing. So when they have a different response or they report hearing or saying or whatever, a different thing, we think, what is wrong here? Like, it was so clear. Or kind of, what's wrong with you? Why don't you know that when I run away, you're supposed to come after me? Like, I would do that for you,

Leah:

Right.

Steven:

right?

Leah:

Yeah.

Steven:

And Other people don't necessarily live in the same world or speak the same language, if you will, and they're not starting from the same set of data. So we all think everyone is just like me, and in fact, they're very different. That's the biggest, uh, takeaway that I think anybody can get from studying any map of personality, is that first discovery of, wow, other people can be really different from me, and it doesn't make them wrong, or stupid, or, you know, name your judgment.

Leah:

Right.

Steven:

It just means they're different. Weenies, right? It just means they're different, and by the way, my way is a way, but it's not the one right way.

Leah:

Mm hmm.

Steven:

Even though my pattern might say it's the one right way. Rigid pattern tends to take that point of view. Yeah.

Leah:

I think what might be helpful for people to start to internalize which pattern they may find themselves in as they sort of sort out, well, which pattern do I do? Um, could be you describing what happens for, let's say, a merger and then down the line when they get triggered. What's that initial reaction? And maybe people can start to find that pattern inside

Steven:

Yeah. For each pattern, when they get triggered, the thing they do is, they do their safety strategy.

Leah:

Right.

Steven:

Which, for leaving pattern, is leaving. For Merging Pattern is they try to merge, they try to connect. For Enduring Pattern, it's hunker down and hide. For Aggressive Pattern, it's get big and try to overpower the other person.

Leah:

And then for rigid is find the right way.

Steven:

It's, yeah, it's emotionally or energetically contract, control yourself. Inner control is very important here, because there's this very strong inner critic. Everyone has an inner critic, but people who do Rigid Pattern are more identified with it, and their inner critic is often, you know, fiercer. And their inner critic is vetting every internal thought and feeling and making sure, you know, you, you can't do that unless it's correct.

Leah:

Yes. Which leads me to this next thing. It's like, okay, so let's say we take a merging pattern and an aggressive pattern and, you know, or any of the patterns. So like with a merger, what's the knee jerk reaction in relationship with a merger that an enduring is going to be looking out for, and then how is that different from what an aggressive is going to be looking out for in relationship with a merger? If their mother or their lover or their kid is a merger, so to speak.

Steven:

Right. So I prefer to, to use slightly different words for it. My problem with saying merger or endurer or leaver is that When we use those words in English, what we're doing is turning the person into a thing instead of a process.

Leah:

Okay, good distinction.

Steven:

it just seems to me that's an unwise thing. I mean, I got, I got an attitude about that. During my training in psychology in my early years as a psychotherapist, because I'd be talking to other therapists, and they'd be saying, well, I have this borderline who does X, Y, Z. I have this bipolar who does this. I have this, you know, and I'm thinking, wait a minute, where did the person go? Let's, let's stay aware that there's a human being in there who has a heart, who has buried needs, who has a bunch of feelings, and those are all important.

Willow:

Rather than putting them in a box.

Steven:

Rather

Leah:

over identifying them with a disorder or a pattern.

Steven:

So I tend to, um, it's, it's a little clumsier, but I say, you know, a person who's caught in merging pattern, a person who's caught in enduring pattern, which helps me remember that they're caught in it now, but they could come out.

Leah:

Right,

Steven:

They could become more present.

Leah:

Yeah.

Steven:

Yeah. And so merging and enduring combination is this, um, very common kind of relationship thing with a certain problem, which is that. The person who does merging pattern wants more connection. Safety is in connection. It's like, I'm going to move towards you. I'm going to send, uh, energetic feelers out into your field, and I'm going to just start connecting to you everywhere and finding out what's going on inside you. Because I love you, and I want you to know I love you, and being connected is the best possible thing. We all know that. You notice the speak, speech pattern is like rapid and unending, and, but it's, it's all about

Willow:

Leah runs this one. That's why we're laughing.

Leah:

I can definitely be unending.

Steven:

that's what they're doing because they love the other person and they want to feel closer. Okay. If the other person is currently caught in enduring pattern, maybe that's where they live most of their time. To them, that exactly reproduces the wounding that they experienced as a child, which is somebody else is coming into my space when I don't want them and they are just intruding on me and trying to control me and trying to connect with me and I want them to stop messing with me. So their response is, get out of here, but they don't want to do anything that overt. It's a more passive aggressive kind of response than active aggressive. So they shut down inside. They go down into, uh, one of, one of my friends called it their, um, their, their contemplation chamber. They're, you know, it's like, it's way down in the ground and you can't find it.

Leah:

Right.

Steven:

I'm safe here, you can't find me, and you never will. Which of course makes the Merging Pattern person feel frustrated.

Willow:

Yeah, because they want to connect.

Steven:

Yeah, for them, safety is in connection.

Leah:

so it's like, it's like a desire to, let's make this better. Let's solve this. Let's, let's get to feeling better!

Steven:

let's get to feeling better. And the problem is, same thing we said before, their solution or their method for feeling better actually makes the person in Enduring Pattern feel worse. They feel intruded on and controlled and they want to stop it. So they hunker down and become unavailable. They become the strong silent type, you know. I know he loves me, but he's never actually said it.

Leah:

Right. And so there's a feeling for the, for the person who is stuck in operating under the merger pattern is going, um, I feel stonewalled. It's like, there's, I'm feel blocked. There's nobody home. I feel like the silent

Steven:

Mm hmm.

Leah:

Um, what did I do wrong? And then it goes back to, how can I fix this now? What's wrong with me? And so there's like, there's over analyzation of both types of trying to emotionally find out, you know, How do we get back? And if you're stonewalling me and giving me the silent treatment and ignoring me, and now I have to suffer for days on end until you decide you're going to open the door. And meanwhile, I'm going to puddle and feel horrible.

Steven:

Yeah. And the person is being stonewalled because that's the safety strategy for the person in Enduring Pattern. And part of the problem is that they have different rhythms and they're expecting the other person to respect their rhythm. We all Um, hope that other people and expect that other people will treat us the way we would treat somebody that we are respecting. A person who does Enduring Pattern will respect other people by not bothering them. Imagine two or three Enduring Pattern people on a fishing trip. They're standing in the river. They've got their, their wader boots on up to their feet their chest, right? They're waist deep in the water. They're fishing and it's been three hours and no one has said a word. They're standing 20 feet apart fishing and they're all happy. It's like, yeah, this is it, man. Nobody is bugging me.

Leah:

Yeah. What's interesting is, is my secondary is enduring pattern. So I can totally relate to the, just leave me alone. Stop trying to come after me. I definitely want to go fishing in a silence. And, and just be

Steven:

out when I'm ready.

Leah:

yes. Parallel playing is a total joy for me. Let's all be in the same room, but not talk and do our own thing. But I like that we're together. Uh huh.

Steven:

together and I would like to go with you when you go someplace, but, uh, I'm not going to initiate it.

Leah:

Yeah,

Steven:

You know, so it's with this couple, for instance, training the merging pattern person to say, okay, I, um, I'm planning to go to the gym this afternoon to exercise. And I thought you might want to go too. So my plan is to go about two o'clock and, um, I don't need you to decide right now if you're going to go. Clue one, don't ask them to decide right now, they need time. But I'll come back, uh, you know, about, uh, ten minutes before two o'clock, and I'll ask you that.

Leah:

Nice. Yes.

Steven:

you turn around and you walk away and you take your energy with you, you don't track them. And the person in, exactly, because they know about tracking. They will feel the tracking, and to them, that's like the, the radar that locks on before a missile is sent.

Willow:

yeah. That's not giving them the time and space that

Leah:

Yeah, that's a real

Willow:

their own truth.

Leah:

Because I think for people who do tracking they don't really realize sometimes they don't realize just how much they're tracking and and they're because they're trying to attune to what's going on with their partner and that that can feel invasive that there is a subconscious alert signal within the endurer who's who and when feeling triggered can sort of notice when someone's got a beeper on them and that feels icky

Willow:

whereas other pattern styles might appreciate tracking,

Steven:

Yeah. I, I would imagine, uh, merging pattern, if you feel someone else tracking you, it could be evidence that they care about you.

Willow:

Right?

Steven:

Now, so for leaving pattern, what happens to you if you feel tracked?

Willow:

I mean, it depends. It depends on who's doing it, right?

Steven:

yeah. And the

Leah:

I don't think so.

Willow:

Yeah.

Steven:

if, if they do aggressive pattern as your current husband or ex husband or whoever it was, as he did it, I would imagine that felt like, oh, I The wolves are in the forest. You know, like, they're coming after me. I better get out of here.

Willow:

Whereas if I have like a therapist or a good friend tracking me, you know, then I feel more held,

Leah:

Anchored. Yeah.

Steven:

tracking coming from the heart center versus tracking coming from the belly center.

Leah:

that's a good

Steven:

pattern Aggressive patterned people track from the belly center, right?

Leah:

Or even another leaving pattern tracking you.

Steven:

Yes, which will be a lighter touch.

Leah:

yeah.

Willow:

That'd

Steven:

like, I know where you are, but leaving pattern, the tracking and the touch is so light that a lot of people don't even notice it.

Leah:

Right.

Steven:

They be, they may actually be disassembling you, taking you apart to find out how you work, but it's a very light touch kind of situation. Mm-Hmm.

Willow:

I'm curious, Steven, if you could give us an example. I mean, you've been working with couples for years. I'm curious if you could give us an example of, of like, or if you've seen this a lot in your work with couples, like, wow, these two pattern types are always, like, they have the hardest time finding common ground with each other. And, and what sort of, um, things have you given them in your work with them? To do or to shift their perspective around in order to find that common ground.

Steven:

I would say the hardest combination in terms of, you know, different, two different people, not patterns within a person, but within two different people, the hardest combination I've seen is aggressive and leaving. Because of the difference in energy,

Willow:

Right.

Steven:

the, the amount of energy that runs through the aggressive pattern person's body just all the time. They might not be angry or upset or nothing's wrong, but they're excited about something. And it over voltages the other person's body, the one who does leaving pattern. And when they get over voltaged, they feel scared and they start to leave. And then the aggressive pattern person is upset. It's like, why are you leaving? I'm having, this is fun. Come on and join me. You know, like, yeah, like why don't you turn it up from a hundred volts to 200 or even 400? We could have a lot of fun at 400. And if you see a group of aggressive pattern people getting together, they, when it's just aggressive pattern people in the group, they tend to turn the voltage up really high because that's when it's really fun. Like, you know, let's just run into each other as hard as possible, or have fight club, or it's like, you know, we'll argue, it'll be a debate, it'll be, it'll be a high energy exchange that would cause most people to say, I am out of here.

Willow:

So, one of the things that's really important then in this work is being able to read energy, to understand the energetics of these pattern styles. So, not everyone, naturally understands and can read energy. So what are some of the skills that, that you help people develop so that they can read the energy of their partner in the physical somatic understanding of these pattern styles?

Steven:

Yeah, I think organically, every person is able at some level to read energy, but those of us who do patterns that are later on the developmental scale, especially rigid and aggressive pattern, have sort of learned not to do that, but to pay attention instead to more physical. So, it's a matter of teaching a person to pay attention to that, that subtle change, that really faint difference in how you feel, and to consider that important. And I personally have had to do a lot of this because, excuse me, rigid and aggressive are my two patterns. And, We've all studied with Lynda, our teacher in all of this. And, you know, in for many years in Lynda's class, my approach has been, Oh God, I'm a retard. I can't do any of this. I don't know what these people are talking about. You know, these people who do leaving and merging patterns are talking about, Oh, I felt a feeler come out of your body and plug into me right here. And I'm going like, what? So. First, first thing, give yourself a break. It's okay if you're not already good at it. And start paying attention to stuff that's really subtle that you maybe were just glossing over. And start trusting your body. Your body will feel this. Your body will know. Your head doesn't. Now the way that a person can use their head, their mind, is to, um, to learn about these patterns. And to begin to practice. Check out, is this really true? You know, to go to your partner and say, well, you know, this book says this, let me read you this paragraph. Is this true about you?

Leah:

Hmm.

Steven:

And if it is, their response is going to be, yes, I've been trying to tell you that, right. right? And then the two of you can talk over whatever it says in that paragraph. And maybe the person who doesn't get it can learn about it. I've had, especially when I first published this book, I would get lots of emails from couples who'd say, like, we're sitting in a cafe in Paris, and we're reading paragraphs of your book to each other, and it's blowing our minds. Like, how did you know about this stuff?

Leah:

Right.

Willow:

Yeah.

Steven:

in that pattern were saying about themselves. I happened to be in a class in which we spent years and years and years exploring that. That was really good luck for me. Mm hmm, mm

Leah:

You know what, we had a conversation, you know, prior to this interview. One of the things that really stuck out to me was you asking the classroom, like kind of popcorn style, what happens when you get triggered? And then, and then you would write on a chalkboard all their words. And it was kind of helping you formulate language that was describing some of this. Can you say a little bit about that?

Steven:

Yeah, uh, when I was, before the pandemic, when I was teaching two day workshops on this across the country, it was a Saturday Sunday format, and Saturday morning, the first thing I'd do would be have everybody in the class, uh, think about a couple of times when they had been really triggered, they had felt overwhelmed, they had reacted in some way, and write down, What did they actually do? What did they think? What did they feel? And what actions did they take? And then I would do exactly what you said. I would have a big blackboard or whiteboard or something like that and somebody to be the scribe and write it all down. And I'd go around the room and say, okay, so who wants to volunteer? What's on your list? And we would make this huge list. of all these things. And then, uh, you know, that would take a couple of hours. I'd put them on a break for 10 or 15 minutes. And I would go over to the, the board and I would start writing ones, twos, threes, beside each of these things, fours, fives. And I was doing that for two reasons. I wanted to then be able to assemble this into five different lists. I said, okay, you know, number one, leaving pattern. This is what you guys said. Number two, merging pattern. This is what you guys said. But I also was checking something out because I had received this same teaching you got from Reich and Lowen and Periakos and all the people who studied this before us, that, you know, people do these things. People in X pattern behave this way. And when I had boiled that down to these five safety strategies, I thought, I think this is true, but I haven't tested it. I need to make sure. I didn't want to be teaching this for years and then have somebody on a talk show say, well, how do you know? Did you ever check this out? I wanted, you know, rigid pattern. I'm thinking about

Leah:

Do it right. I

Steven:

What if I'm wrong about this? So I actually checked it out and I found out, yeah, these five words, Safety strategies do pretty much, um, include everybody's behavior when they get triggered.

Leah:

Now, one of the things that really surprised me when I was reading your book was like, wow, Steven didn't say much about the compensated merger, as I affectionately sometimes call it the complicated merger.

Steven:

yes, yes. Mm

Leah:

And, and you had a really good answer for that. Um, and I think it also related to this chalkboard exercise that like, as you were finding the categories for merger that were in common for people, the compensated and the merger, you know, which is the same, it's just the compensation to something slightly different. Different. It has a different flavor in some instances. Can you can you describe that?

Steven:

Yeah, so the compensation is an extra layer on top of the merging pattern structure. The problem is that, um, merging pattern and leaving pattern develop typically in a child before will and strength come online. So they develop in a time when the kid doesn't have access to will and strength to solve their problems. They have to do something else. Leaving and connecting are really the two things that are available. And then after will and strength come online around two years old There are more options. Also, as will and strength come online, it's easier to develop a felt sense of your own core, which means an eye can develop inside the person more clearly. Um, so what that means is that the, the compensated merging pattern is an attempt to When you don't quite yet have will and strength to use to develop a real core, it's an attempt to pretend you have a core, and pretend you have will and strength, and sort of get by that way. It's a pretence of a more developed situation, which is why under pressure it will dissolve and the person will melt into a puddle of tears. Just like a regular, simple merging pattern. And it's also why the compensation layer often has the flavor of one of the other patterns. enduring pattern or aggressive pattern or rigid pattern. It's like they've really sort of specialized in developing those gifts as a way to handle problems. There are some people I think whose compensated merging compensation layer, uh, goes back to the leaving pattern,

Leah:

Mm

Steven:

but there you have actually fewer developmental skills. You have more perceptual skills, but fewer developmental skills, so it doesn't work that well.

Leah:

Uh huh

Steven:

I haven't seen many examples of that.

Leah:

Now one thing you said that I thought was very interesting was sort of When the pattern gets really triggered the Compensation merger will go to mother like a

Steven:

yes, the mother baby thing.

Leah:

piece versus sort of the More of like that the regular merger would be what?

Willow:

Mother

Steven:

The

Leah:

Yeah, mother me versus yeah, yeah,

Steven:

Yeah, it's in the baby mother dynamic, which is the world of an infant, right? The infant is at first the baby. And developing the compensated merging pattern is a way to shift from being the baby in that dynamic to being the mother in that dynamic. So you're still caught in that dynamic, but now you're a bigger person, stronger, you can help out, you can take care of them, you're focused. Instead of your focus being on, I need you to help me, your focus switches to, I will help you. What do you need? I will take care of you because I'm big and strong. But because you don't yet have a felt sense of your own core developed, you can't reference your own core and really check in, how much gas do I have left? How much strength do I actually have to help this person or carry out whatever I'm promising? So you over promise and you over give until you crash and burn. You get exhausted, you crash and burn, and you fall back down into the simple merging pattern.

Leah:

Okay.

Steven:

And then you start building it up again. So there's this cycle that you go through.

Leah:

And all of it is still in this unaware desire for connection. It's like, um, I'll mother you because I still want connection or I need you to mother me because I need connection. And it's, it's still, that's the inside motivation.

Steven:

that is the inside motivation. And for anybody dealing with a person who's really caught in merging pattern, that's the important thing to know. What they want is connection. What makes them feel safer is connection. Give them some connection.

Leah:

Right. And what often other people feel is I'm being manipulated. Yeah.

Steven:

And they maybe are,

Leah:

Yeah.

Steven:

but, you know, all of us are doing whatever we're doing to try to get what we want. So there's some degree of manipulation in all our performance.

Leah:

And in their innocence, they don't actually know that their energy feels manipulative, just like an endurer doesn't know that they are representing passive aggressiveness. So it's like, we're all just innocent beings. Um, no one's really misbehaving. We don't know what we can't see until it gets revealed, and then maybe we can do a course correct. I know a good example for myself and my husband is He grew up with a, um, a mother that would often get triggered and do merging. And so he's sensitive to people who go into emotions, go into damsel in distress. He doesn't trust it. It feels manipulative and boom, he start going into stonewalling enduring pattern. So I've learned don't cry in front of Matt. If the upset,

Steven:

Wow.

Leah:

to do with Matt. So I, as a compensated merger, uh, who goes into pattern with compensated merger, has

Steven:

Mm hmm.

Leah:

okay, if I need to cry about this, he's not my first person to get support from, because I'm not going to get my needs met. I either need to go soothe myself, or reach out to someone else and then come to him when I'm less in pattern so that I can actually have the right connection with him that we both can feel safe in because I'm just not going to feel safe if the first person I cry with is him and that's going to trigger his, his mom's stuff, which is really just triggering his enduring stuff.

Steven:

Have the two of you been able to get to saying, like you saying, okay, I really need to cry about this, and I know that's not gonna work for you, so I'm gonna go somewhere else and cry and get over it, you know, cry it out, and then I'll be back.

Leah:

yeah, yeah. And if it's not said in the moment, like I'm gonna, I got some tears to go shed. I'll be back when that feels like I can continue this conversation. Um, then I, if I can say that I will, otherwise I'll just go take some space and go have those tears and go be with myself and then come back and share what I got out of that. Share what I, what, what, how that was valuable for me. And, and, you know, and so that I'm still sharing that I'm experiencing this. But I'm not doing it from a place of blame or criticism of just going here's where I'm at now and here's where I feel like I can take responsibility for this unfortunate experience of a fight.

Willow:

Mm.

Leah:

and in the hope

Steven:

so much energy, without so much charge on it,

Leah:

Yeah.

Steven:

because the amount of charge might scare him.

Leah:

Yeah. And it hurts me further. So in my wisdom, I'm like, I don't really want to hurt myself further. I don't really want to cause him to go away further. Um, can I just be at peace with this? Yes. It kind of hurts. That he can't hold that for me in the moment, and I love and respect him and understand him enough that it's actually okay.

Willow:

/This is such a great example, y'all, that Leah's giving of, of mastery of understanding these, um, protective pattern styles and how it is saving, um, her marriage over the long haul, right? She's avoiding these, um, these fights and going down the rabbit hole and, you know, days and weeks on end, and then these things happen. The same patterns and fights happening over and over again. So really understanding and knowing how these protective styles of keeping yourself safe work within your relationship is going to give you a lot more longevity and a lot more happiness in your relationship. So if you have not yet picked up Steven's book, do so, it's called The Five Personality Patterns. It is now translated into Spanish and French. And, um, he's working on a second book, which he is going to be, I don't know when that's going to

Leah:

Yeah. Tell us about the second book here.

Steven:

Oh, so it's called How to Have Better Relationships, and it basically is about, it's, it's sort of a, um, a shorter piece on the five patterns, and then, okay, you need to know this map of personality and which patterns you tend to go into, and also be able to assess which patterns does this other person that I want to relate to go into, and then knowing that, There's a chapter for each of the patterns, whichever one is predominant for them in the moment. Like, okay, these are the steps you need to take, specific action steps, ways to shift yourself so that you don't create a fight or scare them or, just as you realized with your husband, Leah, that has limitations. Every human being walking the earth has limitations. It's important to be able to understand, to assess and understand and accept your partner's limitations so that you're not constantly asking them to do something that they can't do.

Willow:

Right. That's just setting everyone up for failure and disappointment. Don't do that people

Leah:

set each other, let's set each other up to win. Yeah. Yeah,

Steven:

I think it's okay to say, I really wish that you could do this for me. And if someday you can, I'll be really happy about that. But I realize you can't right now, and I'm okay. I'm still here.

Willow:

I like that.

Leah:

yeah. And, and then find creative ways to sort out how to get taken care of, you know?

Steven:

Exactly. Don't expect one person to answer every need you have.

Willow:

No, definitely. That's

Steven:

I mean, there are certain friends of mine who like to talk politics, and when I want to talk politics, I go talk to them.

Leah:

Yes, and when you don't,

Steven:

Not all heart centered people, you know.

Leah:

yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, well, we got to have you back on the show when your book comes out, so everyone look forward to that. Um, Steven has some other courses, so be sure to check out his website. Everything will be in the show notes for you to, um, dig into this material because it's so rich. It is so

Willow:

It's life changing.

Leah:

thank you so much,

Steven:

It is life changing for people. It's been amazing. I think one person said to me, you know, understanding people this way is like having x ray vision.

Willow:

It is, yeah.

Steven:

You can see what's going on inside them and then you can adjust yourself.

Willow:

Yep.

Steven:

to a way that's helpful.

Leah:

And, you know, in our community, it's the number one book that gets bought and shared for people than any other book. That is becoming more and more so in conversations that I'm having with people about the pattern types.

Willow:

It's my number one recommendation for anyone who has children, and anyone who's in a relationship. So,

Steven:

Yeah. Yeah. And I was doing an interview with somebody yesterday who said, well, how do I raise my kid without them going into pattern?

Willow:

You

Steven:

I don't think that's possible. And it may be that, and it may be that each of us needs to develop certain patterns in order to practice certain skills, which we're going to need later in life.

Leah:

That's right. Yeah,

Steven:

I don't know. I can't

Leah:

the patterns, I think.

Willow:

There are a

Steven:

the future.

Willow:

And, you know, Leah and I did a whole, um, a whole episode on these patterns as well, so we'll add the link to the show notes for that

Steven:

Oh, great. Great.

Willow:

Yeah. Steven,

Steven:

And ideally, ideally, the, the How to Have Better Relationships book will come out next summer. So I'm shooting for that.

Willow:

Can't wait. Can't wait for that.

Steven:

Lovely to work with you. Thank you.

Willow:

Yeah. So much fun. Yeah,

Leah:

Love, love, love!

Steven:

Thank you. Bye bye now.

Announcer:

Now, our favorite part, the dish.

Leah:

Well, Steven Kessler, so fun to have him on the show. He's been in our orbit for so long and, uh, it was great to finally get him on here.

Willow:

I know, so fun to chat with Steven. He is quite an interesting man. I've done a couple of his online programs, so it's been fun to learn from him over the years. And really, his book was so profound for me. I feel like I learned the most out of his book than any of the other classes that I studied with other teachers on this, um, pattern work, so. I love this book. It's one of my number one recommendations. Hmm.

Leah:

Think it was my year six or seven and he was repeating that year. I mean, he'd been studying with Lynda for like 15 years or something. Um, and it was, I always wanted to sit next to him in class. Like he's just one of those people that's like really solid and grounded and we had a great rapport and he was. He was really cool, great guy. And, uh, it took me a while to read his book. Everyone else had read his book before I had, mainly because I didn't feel like I really felt like I knew the pattern types pretty well, having studied them for so long and been in active participation, working with them that it wasn't like, Oh, I got to go read this book because it has something I don't know. Um, but I just started listening to his book. I recommend the audible version for sure. He is the one reading it, it does a great job. And, um, and I did, I picked up a lot of nuances that I hadn't heard before, that I thought were really refreshing. Um, and one of the things we there's a lot of stuff we didn't get a chance to get to, that, you know, um, Yeah, not this interview. There's so many pieces to parse out in terms of this work. And it's one of the reasons why we'll be doing an intensive soon with this body of work so that people can really understand how to work with them. And one of those items. That we didn't get a chance to touch on has to do with how to break the pattern. In other words, how to really get to the point where you, um, have really shifted your conditioning enough with the pattern that it's no longer a knee jerk reaction. That you're able

Willow:

longer running you. It's like, you have a choice around it.

Leah:

Yeah, and even when it comes to the light side of the pattern, which is, is something else we should do, you know, maybe an episode with just you and I around

Willow:

Well, I'm pretty sure we talked about that on the

Leah:

We, we did, we did. one thing that I think in retrospect, like I really found the initial presidential theme really interesting and maybe helpful, but then I thought, Oh shit, that kind of went on a little too long. And I really wanted to like, how do we get this back to couples and lovers and relationships? Because I think for what this shows about is really, that's, that might be more valuable to our audience. And I'm not sure that we nailed that. Um, but I did find it pretty fascinating.

Willow:

Yeah, it was definitely a different spin on things. I mean, as I said, not being a very political person, you know, a lot of it was like, I don't know who those people are or the stories around them. I don't pay attention to politics. Um, but, you know, we did get into the end there, some of the nuances around, you know, this pattern type and that pattern type. You know, of course, the one that he's like, the most difficult one is the one that I do find to be the most difficult, you know, and in my own personal experience and having been with somebody who ran that pattern for so many years, it was, um, yeah, it was challenging. And it was, it came down to a nervous system thing. In the end, I was like, my nervous system is not going to be able to handle this person's nervous system. Especially as menopause comes along, you know, like I just won't have the capacity for it. So I think that's one of the things about the energetics of these pattern types is you're really like Checking in like how does your nervous system respond to another person's nervous system? Like for example enduring pattern as you said always sitting next to steven, you know, it was like it felt

Leah:

Although he's not an

Willow:

although he's not enduring but But certain

Leah:

But years of working with energy, you could really feel that about Steven. And so he's always felt very safe. And I think that also being a therapist, that's a cultivation that a lot of therapists have. It's like, it's a skill they have. It's why a lot of people share their problems with therapists is because there's a sense of equanimity and groundedness and safety and a feeling of trust. And so, yeah, he definitely brought that into the room.

Willow:

know, one of the first things he asked when I did his online course, he asked everyone, big general question, What's the one thing everyone wants? And I was like, Hmm, acknowledgement. Everyone wants to be acknowledged and seen. And he's like, Yeah, that's true. Everyone does want that. But that's safety. Everyone wants to feel safe. And I think if we do feel safe, then we, we are safe enough to allow ourselves to be seen to a point where we can feel acknowledged for who we truly are.

Leah:

That's kind of an interesting thing to say because at this point in my life, feeling safe within myself to a large degree, like there's a lot of things that have been cultivated where I actually don't worry about my safety the way I think a lot of people are hypervigilant about their safety. Now I kind of want to rattle up safety. Safety is not a predominant thing. Like, I want to be safe. Like, I don't mistrust people. I don't mistrust my environment. I'm not looking around for danger. I've had some shitty things happen to me, but I just, I don't live from that place of needing to be safe.

Willow:

Because you already are.

Leah:

And I'm also a middle class, upper middle class white woman in her mid forties. So I've got a lot of privilege to be able to say that. I've also had the privilege and the resources

Willow:

And you've done a lot of work on

Leah:

work. So I mean, it might sound arrogant saying that, but from a sexual place, I actually want to

Willow:

You want,

Leah:

some more dangerous realms, not dangerous behavior, but a little bit more fantastical, edgy, Um,

Willow:

you are.

Leah:

yeah, pour, let's push the boundaries. I don't need boundaries. I don't need to be boundary bound anymore. So I kind of get annoyed of that sort of outlook. But again, that's just from where I'm standing. It's

Willow:

At this point

Leah:

feel that first before you can get to maybe this other

Willow:

Exactly,

Leah:

that's interesting, and I think a lot of people would relate to that. People are really worried about their safety. And that's probably with good reason. Um, now, you know, bring on a trigger for me, like, uh, the, my marriage going up in smoke and I'm not going to feel safe. I am going to grasp for everything around me to go, no,

Willow:

Yeah.

Leah:

get me back to my security. Um, you know, I think too, what's interesting about the patterns, if we were to kind of go down the line, like, what is the challenge of each pattern? Like, I think with aggressives is their energy can get really big, can be very dominant. They're also often kind of annoyingly right, because they're so competent. It's one of their skill

Willow:

Well, and they

Leah:

that they win arguments.

Willow:

Yeah, and they're always looking at the facts. And

Leah:

And they'll get bigger than you. So it's like, they're always winning. And that can just be so annoying in a partnership when it's like, look, winning isn't everything. Caring. is something that one should develop.

Willow:

Right.

Leah:

So that would be like my pet peeve if I were dating an aggressive, which I've had many relationships with. I do love an aggressive petter type.

Willow:

You do. Well, they're great

Leah:

They're so sparkly. They're great in bed, typically. They are just big and fun. Yeah, and they're very confident. And I like the way they command a room. And then you have, I think, the things that can be really annoying about being with a merger is just some neediness, some suffocating, uh, suffocation. They, when they're triggered and they're afraid, their, their need for connection is like, you kind of want to wipe them off.

Willow:

It's almost like anxious attachment style in a way. Yeah.

Leah:

And then if you do the compensated merger, it's sort of like, There's this unwillingness to get vulnerable because they're in denial of that part that has needs. And so then they just try to mother up and, you know, that can just feel patronizing.

Willow:

Yes.

Leah:

Um, so they go after the connection, but it's from like this weird patronizing, mother knows best type of

Willow:

hmm. Mm

Leah:

uh, that must be hard to be in relationship with. And then

Willow:

Leaving pattern.

Leah:

they just fucking

Willow:

They just leave.

Leah:

It's like their capacity is so short to like actually be in, in the intensity of what sometimes is happening in conflict or even just be in the same room where someone is just struggling. You know, if, if their struggle feels really big, you know, they oftentimes can't tolerate it. And so if sometimes it feels impossible to get resolution and there can just be a lot of abandonment. I think there's a, there's a feeling that at least for me and some of my relationships with leavers, it's like, I can't trust you if you can't stay. You know, I can't invest. So, you know, it's like, what can I really count on you for? And so I think that can be really hard for leavers. Um, but I have to say the leavers have been the hardest ones for me to be in relationship with mainly because they're scared of me because my energy can be so big being a compensated merger.

Willow:

hmm. Mm

Leah:

mean, they're the ones I really want to gain skill within my own energy so that I can be someone they can be safe with. So that I have enough range and modulation with my own energy that I can be someone they can trust.

Willow:

Well, I think you get some good practice with that with me.

Leah:

Well, you're, you, you're not the

Willow:

But I'm not in my pattern

Leah:

Yeah, you don't spend a lot of time in the leaving pattern, uh,

Willow:

more just when I get super triggered.

Leah:

And you come back really fast, and I, so I think if there was a redeeming quality for a leaver to cultivate is, it's

Willow:

How quickly

Leah:

but how quickly can you come back, you know, and

Willow:

then that's true for all the patterns or any trigger at all. It's like, it's okay. We're human. Like, yes, triggers are going to happen, but how quickly can you recalibrate and come back to your essence?

Leah:

And then like to be in relationship with Endurers. I mean, um, I think it's just that they go away in a different way and you can't just barge your way in. You can't convince them. There's no like coercing them

Willow:

time and space in the world. And that can be so frustrating. You

Leah:

getting them up and out of slumps is, can be exhausting because they're just going to stay in it for as long as they're going to stay in it.

Willow:

Yeah.

Leah:

Uh, and then rigid, I think for me with rigid, the most annoying thing is judgmentalness.

Willow:

Mm.

Leah:

are always seems like they're looking for what's wrong so that they can convince themselves to either not

Willow:

right is.

Leah:

or to elevate themselves or, uh, to not trust. I mean, there's so many pieces of their judgmental knee jerk reaction that makes me want to go

Willow:

Gets real critical. Self critical

Leah:

and and then what I hate for them is like if they're Criticizing something a lot out there I know and this is where a lot of passion which helps me come back from my annoyance is I know that on the inside they're doing that even worse to themselves and that just kind of breaks my heart So those are the things that are common struggles, but the common blessings that make up, I think, for a lot of those annoying downsides of all the patterns is what would you say is a total blessing of the aggressive pattern type?

Willow:

Well, their competence and that they can really handle anything and they can walk into a room they are the life of the party and they really they edify others really well you know. They just if their light is shining on you oh you are in the sparkle you are in the spotlight it feels so good so when you're on their light side you're in in the spotlight.

Leah:

Yeah, yeah. What about ridges for you?

Willow:

I mean, God, they're just also competent, like really get shit done in a very organized way. And, um, you know, they're smart, they're analytical, like they'll look for where's the hole. You know, if you're running a funnel, like an online funnel, where's the hole in the funnel could never like I can, my leaving pattern brain, whatever, it does not go in that direction. Um, but I, I love that about the rigid pattern.

Leah:

Yeah. Attention to detail. Um, yeah. And, uh, You know, something else that I really appreciate about Rigids is they're thorough. Um, and they are, again, like really smart. They're the type of person you want on your team. Um, they're a great team player. And when the rules are important, it's good, they'll find the gaps in the holes, you know? And so there's a certain kind of success. That's really, um, spectacular to be a part of when it comes to the light side of Rigids. And, I have to say, the other thing I think is really awesome about them is discipline. For someone who has a hard time with discipline, I think that is the genius zone of Rigid. Is, um, discipline comes naturally to them and it's something that they can get off on and I want that as a role model.

Willow:

Yeah. It's just, it's a nice thing to be around, you know, because it encourages you to have your own devotion or discipline.

Leah:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, what about with, uh, leavers? What do you think the,

Willow:

pattern. I mean, obviously their big gift is that they can access this higher consciousness and have that sort of bigger, bigger vision, bigger perspective and, and bring down, um, like spiritual wisdom and knowledge to any situation.

Leah:

Well, and if they're not bringing on spiritual wisdom, they're often bringing down like mathematical, scientific, artistic wisdom, you know? So I think what's really magical about the leaving pattern is magic. There is a real mystical, fairy like, whimsical, very bright, intelligent, um, genius level insight that I think is is spectacular to, uh, experience if they'll let you. Sometimes they're a little secretive about those magic realms of theirs. You have to be, again, very trustworthy if they're going to

Willow:

Uh huh.

Leah:

of those realms.

Willow:

And then the

Leah:

go hide with them.

Willow:

enduring pattern, I would say they, um, They're such good teachers. They're so grounded. There's a patient ness about them. And like a methodical, like, okay, we're gonna do this task, we're gonna learn this thing. And they just take their time and it's um, it's relaxing to be around them.

Leah:

Yeah. I think also they're the easiest pattern type to be in relationship with because they don't rev.

Willow:

Yeah.

Leah:

Um, they are pretty chill. They're not always like on an emotional roller coaster. Um, you, they're just so reliable, so grounded, like you said, and there is a feeling of, I'm safe with them. It's why you see so many teachers

Willow:

Yeah.

Leah:

being indoors. What do you think is the sparkle plenty for mergers?

Willow:

Aw, they're just such lovers! They just, it's so fun to be in love with a merger, actually, because you just feel so one with that person. It's amazing, if you really want to be in love with that person. Um, otherwise it feels like too much, but yeah, they are such great caretakers, such good, they're always looking out for everyone else. They're really making sure that, you know, you've got all your warm and fuzzies around you and you're happy and you're, you know, they're great at, um, just making a, a loving, comforting environment. I feel like they have a thing about their environment. It has to be like, Nice, cozy, yeah.

Leah:

It has to be pleasing.

Willow:

Yes.

Leah:

I think to, um,

Willow:

yeah.

Leah:

They're quick to forgive, and I think they really want to understand others.

Willow:

Mm.

Leah:

I think they extend themselves in, in, with grand gestures, and in small gestures too, like they really want to be there for others in a genuine, heartfelt way.

Willow:

Yeah, they're very heartfelt. Mm hmm.

Leah:

Yeah. They're, they're, they're the hostess with the mostest, so you gotta like that about them.

Willow:

That's you, baby.

Leah:

That's me when

Willow:

Always calling, I'm always calling Leah the team mom. Team mom! We'll be like, we'll be like, well, since the last, um, since the last immersion, since the last Tantra retreat. Uh, you know, we're all running out the door, we're late for class, and Leah's like, Oh, Willow, here's your earrings, you forgot them on the table, you know, just like, totally not necessary, but great, now, awesome, put them in, yeah, thanks, I needed

Leah:

I don't care if you're late for

Willow:

I didn't even know,

Leah:

I have my priorities straight. What can I say?

Willow:

exactly.

Leah:

A rigid would not be pleased.

Willow:

No, definitely not, definitely not, they'd be like, we are late for class.

Leah:

Yeah, well, I can't wait for um, Steven's next book. I, and, and the, because I think he, and we didn't get to really deepen into this. It would be my one thing that I'd be so eager to have him back on the show is to really deepen in in the realms of his experience as a relationship, family therapist, and, and how, you know, those, those more intricate levels and practices for helping couples, um, get back on track with each other. So we touch on some of that, but it'd be fun to go deeper. Can't wait for that book to come out. All about love. And, um, especially from the lens of the pattern types. Now, if you get his book, again, we highly recommend you do. We'll have a link in the show notes, um, on the five personality pattern types. He does talk about the dynamics between each of the pattern types in relationship with each other. So

Willow:

he's going to do a whole book that's going to go so much deeper. And that was the course that I did with him, and it was great. It was a great course.

Leah:

yeah, and there's, he's got some, um, extra handouts and other things. So check out his website and, uh, thanks Steven. Love, love, love.

Announcer:

Thanks for tuning in. This episode was hosted by Tantric Sex Master Coach and Positive Psychology Facilitator, Leah Piper, as well as by Chinese and Functional Medicine Doctor and Taoist Sexology Teacher, Dr. Willow Brown. Don't forget, your comments, likes, subscribes, and suggestions matter. Let's realize this new world together.

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