Charna Cassel: From Surviving to Thriving and the Power of Somatic Therapy for Sexual Trauma Recovery | #88

Have you or a loved one experienced sexual trauma? Are you ready to embark on a transformative journey of healing & reclaim your power? In this groundbreaking episode, psychotherapist, podcaster, & sexuality coach Charna Cassel shares her expertise on somatic therapy techniques and embodied practices that can help you navigate the path to recovery. This episode is packed with actionable insights & transformative potential. Learn how to develop compassionate boundaries, maintain intimacy during the recovery process, and unlock the tools to cultivate a healthy, pleasurable relationship with your body & sexuality.

Key Takeaways:

• Somatic therapy techniques & embodied practices can help survivors feel safe in their bodies & develop healthy relationships
• Recognizing the signs of sexual abuse is crucial for understanding its impact on relationships & sexual experiences
• Regulating the nervous system's response to trauma is key to managing triggers & reactions
• Partners of individuals with sexual trauma can support their loved ones by educating themselves, respecting boundaries, & maintaining intimacy during the healing process
• Developing compassionate boundaries & navigating triggers are essential skills for sexual trauma recovery

EPISODE LINKS *some links below may also be affiliate links

• Charna’s | The Laid Open Podcast
• Charna’s | Website
• SxR Episode #63  | Enriching Intimacy in 12 Ways
• Sex Store | Good Vibrations 
• Book | Survivor's Guide to Sex by Staci Haines
• Book | Exhibitionism For The Shy by Carol Queen 
• Book |

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KING & QUEEN OF HEARTS. Leah & Willow's King & Queen of Hearts Intimacy Toolkit is on sale. Use Coupon  Code KINGANDQUEEN10 for 10% off. 

Transcript

Leah: 1:10

It's your girl Leah Piper for the Sex Reimagined Podcast with co host Dr. Willow Brown.

Willow: 1:15

Hey y'all here today to interview the one and only Charna Cassel who's a licensed marriage and family therapist and trauma trained psychotherapist and sexuality coach who helps people heal and find pleasure in their bodies. And for over two decades, she has been a sex educator. She also worked at the, um, as a clerk at the Good Vibrations in San Francisco and is a, master somatic coach body worker. And so anyway, she was just so much fun to interview and we learned so much and just really had a great time with her.

Leah: 1:50

This is a great episode if you have had a sexual abuse history, if you know of someone who's had sexual trauma, um, and how to learn, like, the intricacies of that, how to be there for that, how to show up in a powerful way with loving compassion, and even if that is not a part of your world, the people or yourself having had sexual trauma, there's a lot of great information on boundaries that you're going to want to stay tuned in for. So, um,

Willow: 2:16

Tune

Leah: 2:17

you are a friend of the show, then honey bunny, you know what to do. It is time to

Willow: 2:22

Tune in, turn on and fall in love with Charna Cassel.

Leah: 2:26

love, love, love.

Announcer: 2:27

Welcome to the Sex Reimagined Podcast, where sex is shame free and pleasure forward. Let's get into the show.

Willow: 2:36

Here we are with Charna Cassel. We're so excited to be here with you. Charna, tell us a little bit about, um, how you got on this journey of healing, working with people around trauma, especially around sexual trauma, because from what I was looking into, you certainly have been on a journey. So we'd love to hear your, your

Leah: 2:57

Yeah, what's the genesis of you?

Charna: 3:00

Thank you. All I can picture now is Phil Collins. Um, I don't know if anyone listening is young enough to get that or old enough to get that. Um, so, uh, you know, my own, my own healing, um, my own healing from sexual trauma and developmental trauma. Um, I was living in Northampton, Massachusetts, Um, I had a girlfriend who owned a bookstore and in that bookstore, I came across the Survivor's Guide to Sex by Stacey Haynes and then I, I bought it and I promptly moved to San Francisco and my big plan was to teach English as a foreign language in, uh, um, and travel. And I got a job at Good Vibrations. Um, and so, uh, long story short, so Good Vibrations is a worker owned sex toy store. It used to be, um, a co op. And, uh, so Stacy used to work there. And through a series of synchronicities, um, I met a woman who became my best friend who happened to be in a survivor's group with Stacey and Stacey was her individual therapist. And so we were sitting over coffee and I like, she was talking about her therapist Stacey and I'm like, wait a second. I like reached down, I picked up this book. I'm like, this Stacey? And so It felt pretty destined, um, so I ended up, there's one spot in her group, one spot in her private practice, and that introduced me to somatic therapy, which I didn't understand, and we would do these weird exercises that I then later understood to be rewiring the brain through the body. originated in, uh, Aikido. Um, taught to her by Richard Strozzi Heckler, and so Stacey Haines, her work focused more on trauma and social justice. And his work focused more on embodied leadership, um, and when she was leaving her private practice to go teach at Strozzi, I just didn't want to stop working with her, so I followed her. Um, so I just, it was very much an intuitive process of, uh, you know, when I started working with her, I did not feel safe in my body. Um, I did not understand how sex and intimacy could coexist. Um, I, I, you know, had the habit of intensely freezing, um, and going non verbal. And through working with her and through working at this, doing intensive training at the Strozzi Institute, um, I felt safe in my body. I, uh, had compassion for men and could feel safe in relation to them and even started having, I identified as a lesbian until my late 20s, and then started dating and having sex with men. Um, and because that work, because I was in therapy since I was 14, and talk therapy is great for, I'm very, you know, I was a very insightful teenager, moving on, you know, onward, um, but it didn't do anything for my nervous system, right? Like, I just had tremendous anxiety, um, and, uh, and it really helped to rewire everything. Um, and shift my, you know, I could suddenly feel pleasure in my sensations and not feel like, like what happens with trauma is the wires for excitement and anxiety get crossed. And so anytime there was an increase in sensation, like I get good news about getting an artist in residency and my whole system would go into a panic.

Willow: 6:28

Wow.

Charna: 6:29

So, so yeah. That's,

Willow: 6:32

And so, was this in your early 20s when you found Stacy and started working with her?

Charna: 6:37

yes, I was 24, um, and I am 48 now, which is crazy, um,

Willow: 6:45

all of us. Ha ha

Charna: 6:48

like

Leah: 6:48

A half a lifetime ago.

Willow: 6:50

Yeah?

Charna: 6:51

Isn't it crazy to think about that? Yeah.

Leah: 6:53

Yeah.

Charna: 6:54

Um, yeah, so, so I did that and then, um, And then I ended up going to school to become a psychotherapist, because I wanted to work with, um, so I was trained as a master somatic coach at the Strozzi Institute, um, and I was interested in working with teenagers and doing embodied sexuality and working with families. And because I was working with touch and sex and, Wanted to work with youth. Someone suggested I get become more legitimate and, and get licensed and also for like writing and publishing and things like that. And so I was, I was a reluctant, I became a reluctant therapist. Um, I'm glad I did that training as well, though. And, and I went to the California Institute for Integral Studies. Um,

Willow: 7:38

C.I.I.S. Yeah, where I got my doctorate. Cool.

Charna: 7:41

Yeah. Yeah. Are you, are you, you're in the Bay?

Willow: 7:44

Uh, I'm in Santa Cruz. So I, yeah, I got my doctorate in Chinese medicine there.

Charna: 7:49

Oh, good.

Willow: 7:50

Yeah. So did you ever get to work with teens and really go down that road?

Charna: 7:55

Oh, yes, I did. I so when I was in grad school, um, when you're doing your training hours, um, you pick an internship and I created a site. It did nothing existed to work with teenagers, which was really weird since we need teen hours, right? Or kid hours. Um, so there was a school called Holden High School. And, um, so I went and I found out about this school, I created a site, and so, um, that's where I did my training, and what I discovered was as much as I, and I created a embodied sexuality class that I taught there as well, um, I didn't like working with parents who couldn't respect boundaries.

Willow: 8:37

Mm.

Charna: 8:38

And so certain borderline or mentally ill parents kind of ruined that for me because I was like, I, you know, I, I was seeing clients in my, or teens in my private practice after that,

Willow: 8:48

Mm. Mm.

Charna: 8:50

a couple parents just made me go, Nope, I'm moving away from this. I really need you.

Leah: 8:55

Can you say a little bit more about what, what that behavior was that, because I think it'd be

Charna: 9:01

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

Leah: 9:03

a parent listening to kind of a what not to do. Um, and that might seem obvious once you tell us, you know, kind of

Charna: 9:10

Mm hmm. Yeah. Thanks for asking. Um, well. When the kid needs to feel safe and talking to you and needs to feel like, you know, that there's a relationship that you're building and that there's, um, that you're not going to be going back and tattling. And unless,

Leah: 9:33

and trust in that.

Charna: 9:34

exactly, and ironically, this one parent who was a therapy, I don't know if she was an intern or if she was a therapist, but, um, she wouldn't respect that. So basically being threatening. Um, so there was a way that she was, she would be jealous if her daughter had connections with other adults and, and she would insist on certain things and she, um, kept calling me. Um, so she was crossing my boundaries around the agreements that we had initially established. And I basically said to her, I was like, you need to respect these agreements that we've established in advance or I can't keep working with your kid. And it was heartbreaking because her kid really liked me, but was like, um, you know, my, she does this. She ruins any

Willow: 10:31

Mm.

Charna: 10:31

connection. So she is very afraid of her own, of being abandoned by her kid and wanted to have complete control over her kid. Um, but unless a kid is hurting themselves, unless they are, you know, physically harming themselves or harming someone else, there really needs to be confidentiality. So, you know, like even if they're sex and drugs and things like that, like unless they're

Willow: 10:52

a teen who's coming into adulthood. It's training for adulthood, right? It's like, we've got to respect each other's privacy and boundaries. So when you start doing that as a teen with a teenager, then they get it and they understand that's how it works.

Charna: 11:06

right.

Leah: 11:07

fodder there for just that mother wound of smother mother and that feeling of the parents insecurities coming in and controlling this ability to learn how to trust others, to build intimate, healthy relationships with other. I mean, it's, it's so foundational. And so when, when a parent's own issues and insecurities robs them of that, ugh,

Charna: 11:30

Yes, yes. It's, it was really, it was really heartbreaking. And you know, I mean, just to, to be specific, and I know that this, these, some of these terms can get overused, but you know, certain telltale signs, this is what, what the value of, of becoming a psychotherapist was, was like, you know, you know, 3, 000 hours of training in seeing so many people and getting to know like, Oh, this is what is meant by, and I didn't like the idea of diagnoses before that, but there's some value in being able to identify for a client. You may want to read this book about borderline mothers. Like, you know, this is what's going on. You are not a bad human. You deserve to, you know, to have respect, to have your boundaries respected. You get to have needs, you know, you get to. Have privacy. And so this mom, I believe, was borderline and just so a lot of, there's a lot of anxiety in that case around abandonment. Um, and so that was what was getting activated for her. Um, and also total disrespect for boundaries and rage. She was blowing up at me when I would try to set boundaries, which was also really inappropriate. Um, and as a therapist, she should have known, like, look, you know how confidentiality works. So that, those are some explicit signs. Yeah.

Leah: 13:57

Yeah. And so it sounds like you had some early childhood sexual trauma in your own life that kind of set you on this path.

Charna: 14:05

Yeah. Um, you know, and I would say, um, so trauma started for me in utero. My mom was a heroin addict and then I was born two and a half months premature. And so it's such an interesting thing, like that pre verbal, how pre verbal trauma leaves a certain imprint that can also be even more intense than, but there was, if you, if you know about the ACE, uh, study, Adverse. Oh, this is, this is a really valuable,

Willow: 14:35

Tell us about

Charna: 14:35

Yeah, so, so Kaiser started it and I believe Stanford picked it up after that, but basically it stands for Adverse Childhood Experiences, and it's a list of questions, um, that, you know, what they were discovering as they were focusing on physical health was that there were themes. And there were certain adverse childhood experiences that kept reappearing. Child sexual abuse was one of them, but it could be like a parent in prison, uh, witnessing domestic violence, you know, um, homelessness, like all these things, right? And, um, and the higher your score is, then the more likely you are to have chronic physical health issues. Right, they were, they were making a correlation, right, autoimmune and, you know, stress, stress in the body, stress.

Willow: 15:23

Early on in life. Yeah.

Charna: 15:25

Yeah, and I didn't learn about the ACE study until I was in grad school and I, and I scored like a 9 out of 10. Overachiever! Um, and, uh, and it made a lot of sense. Right? Like, certain physical health issues started for me, uh, there was sexual abuse starting at four, but, uh, I had a stepfather who entered my life at ten, um, and I had chronic health issues from that point on. Yeah, and there was, there was, you know, physical violence in the house um, and, and sexual abuse. And so, um, and I think it's important to name this because it wasn't until later that I discovered this as an adult and I was, um, training with an organization called Generation 5, which is, which is a nonprofit committed to ending child sexual abuse within five generations and doing community response projects to educate folks, bystanders. Um, That the way sexual abuse is defined is, um, it's not, you know, just like your genitals are touched. Or you're raped, or you know, it's, um, there can be exposure, like really inappropriate, um, talk and exposure to sexual things, or oral sex, or there are certain things that as, as a kid, it was so yucky and normalized, there were certain things that were occurring that I didn't even have the language as a teenager to say, like, those things were also sexual abuse. Right? Like every time my stepfather would taunt me and say mean things till I would kind of punch him and he's a 280 pound man and I was a hundred and ten pound kid then he would pinch my breasts

Willow: 17:18

Mm.

Charna: 17:19

Like, where is,

Willow: 17:21

abuse. Yeah.

Leah: 17:22

Yeah.

Charna: 17:23

is that appropriate? And that was just like a norm, that was just like a thing, you know,

Leah: 17:26

Yeah.

Charna: 17:28

right? Or commenting on your body or asking if your friend that you're going to bring camping has big tits. I mean, like, like yucky stuff that if you,

Leah: 17:38

right. Doesn't feel good. There are sensations that arise in the body around that kind of behavior that are sending signals of alert.

Charna: 17:46

yeah.

Leah: 17:46

To the nervous system and, and signals of to brace and to like navigate and endure and not even navigate. It's really endure all this discomfort and sensation that's running through the body and to not even know. The words, the language, who to go to, all these layers. It's so complex. I think people who have not had that kind of journey or have been exposed to some of that inappropriate stuff. They don't even realize the layer upon layer upon layer that starts to affect the system. And then how did that translate for you coming of age and being sexual yourself?

Charna: 18:24

Oh, right. Yeah, totally. And I think that, you know, that's important and well said. Even just saying those words, I could feel my, uh, throat and chest get tighter and my heart start to, To beat faster, right?

Leah: 18:37

I felt that too, yeah.

Charna: 18:39

Mm hmm, mm hmm. Um And, and so what that is, it's like, even though I'm speaking now, what it, what it looked like was, yeah, hardening. There was a, um, I'm not affected by you, motherfucker. I don't know if I'm allowed to swear, um, uh, that developed. That was automatic for me. There was a hardness to my physical tissue. My whole tissue was like, you know, like an M& M where it's like hard or, or a crab or something.

Willow: 19:10

Yeah.

Charna: 19:11

You would look, you could look at my, you'd think I'm fluid and then you'd touch my body and my muscles were like rocks.

Leah: 19:18

Wow.

Willow: 19:19

Speak.

Charna: 19:20

was so much defense in my, in my fascia, um, and, uh, yeah, it took me a long time, a lot of somatic work to unfreeze, um, all through, through adolescence. I had a, I was more, even though I would say things that were really sexually inappropriate, um, Because it was so normalized in my family, I had a sexual aversion. So if I was ever in a sexual situation as a teenager, I would just freeze and dissociate and lose my, I couldn't. So one thing, yeah, so what's important that I don't think people get is that it's not when a freeze happens, your vocal cords also freeze. And so you may have thoughts, but you literally can't get the words to come out. And so when people say like, why didn't you say no? It's the most infuriating

Willow: 20:11

Right.

Charna: 20:12

thing, right?

Willow: 20:13

they can't, you can't say no. Your, your whole nervous system is shut down. Mm. And so at what time in your life did you start to kind of unravel that somatic shell, that hardness?

Charna: 20:25

Yeah. So, um, in my, I guess I was 20 or 21. Um, I started working with an EMDR therapist and it was very subtle. It was actually the best EMDR work that I've done because other things I think have actually, it can be re traumatizing for people's nervous system if it's not done well. Um, I was also dating a woman and But I was able to start to feel pleasure. I also had to intellectually explore, um, I was reading Carol Queen's book, a book on, um, exhibitionism for the shy and real live nude girl, which are books from, you know, it's like, I don't know, the early 90s. Um, so I had to intellectually think about sexuality and I, I came out when I was 15 and, um, And I would still find myself sometimes in situations with boys or crushes, but I didn't feel safe being attracted to them, so I really denied my attraction to men. Um, but I would even dissociate with women as well. Um, so, So, but I think that the EMDR started to help, and then I, there, I did something called authentic movement, which I think also helped some, and so I could start to feel pleasure and start to have, like, orgasms with, uh, with my girlfriend when I was 21. Um, and then, I still had a hard time. I would still freeze. Um, and it wasn't until I was working with Stacey and doing somatic body work and doing these, um, Aikido based practices, which literally help you move through, um, take action, like move towards somebody or have them move towards you and learning how to ground in my body. And, um, that helped to start to thaw out that freeze.

Leah: 23:51

Wow. Cool.

Charna: 23:52

Um, and so without that, you know, I, yeah, I was, I was, I was kind of like, you, you feel like you're stuck inside yourself, like you're watching things happen and

Willow: 24:01

get, you can't access the outer world and, and there's a place inside of you that's like not totally online as well.

Charna: 24:10

right. Your choice, um, even working at Good Vibrations, I actually think was an important part of the thawing out process because when it started, I would freeze as customers would come towards me and touch me. Like they, there's an intimacy because they're talking to you about their sex life. And then suddenly they're like, arm is around your waist and you're like,

Willow: 24:29

Mm.

Leah: 24:30

Yikes!

Charna: 24:31

Well, you know, they're, they're looking for something that you're not necessarily wanting to give. Um,

Willow: 24:37

hmm.

Leah: 24:38

like a desire to want to speak quietly so you have to get close? Or do you feel like it's someone's actually really trying to cop a feel or was it a mix?

Charna: 24:46

Oh, absolutely both. Right. There are people, I was such an innocent, young thing. Like, you know, there is a guy who once called and, you know, he was basically saying, you know, I have a stump. I had penis cancer. How can I have sex? Like what to, you know what I mean? And here I am like being like, Oh, this poor guy had penis cancer. And what can, well, you could get a strap on. And he's like, tell me about that. And those were wanker calls. And I just had no idea, or, you know, or they would do like, you know, physically inappropriate things, um, with their mouths or, you know, Yeah, I was propositioned. I mean, there's definitely people that were, that were there for, um, nefar yeah, nefarious reasons, and then there are other people that are just shy, and that you can feel the difference. Yeah,

Leah: 25:35

yeah. How long did it take for you to like, feel like you got your street smarts for knowing those distinctions working in a, in a sex toy store?

Charna: 25:45

Well, I, you know, I needed to also, I was doing all this somatic therapy and training at the same time, so who knows what would have occurred if I hadn't had that, to thaw that out, and so it went from, you know, someone touching me without, um, you know, without being able to say anything, to me then starting to have more rigid boundaries. Where I was like I need you to take a step back like I would have to call it out then they'd get literally self conscious and then they'd like step back to I would see their arm coming towards me and they would go to like want to touch my necklace or they were gonna touch me in some way and I would just step out of the way. So I my boundaries I called like went from being rigid to compassionate and A lot more grace and how I could take care of myself versus being like, don't touch me. You know?

Leah: 26:40

that's really beautiful.

Charna: 26:41

Yeah. It was very cool.

Leah: 26:43

Because no one really talks about that much when we're talking about boundaries is like this distinction between rigid boundaries versus compassionate boundaries. Can you say more about that? It's really interesting.

Charna: 26:54

Um, well, I think of it as, uh, so when you have embodied boundaries, right? So as a teenager, I was like a brick wall. Like I was, I was like, I remember I was making out with a boy when I was 14 before we kissed. I said, let's get two things straight. I'm not your girlfriend and you're not going to fuck me. And he was like, okay, and then, you know, you know, um,

Willow: 27:16

now we can make out. Now that we've got that straight. I think I did that kind of thing too up front. I was always just like, check it out. Here's how it's gonna be, you know, and I, it's a self preservation, I think, for a young woman to just kind of like, let me lay it on the line. It's just one way, you know, it's one way of going about it.

Charna: 27:35

it's hard, right? Because, you know, if you don't do that, it can go so South and it so often does. There's so many people who wouldn't necessarily say like, oh, I was, sexually abused at home, but then they have all of these traumatic experiences as a young girl where they wanted to be liked. They didn't want to be mean, you know, and they, they froze up and didn't say they didn't advocate for what felt good to them because they don't know what

Willow: 28:01

they don't know exactly.

Charna: 28:03

Yeah. Um, and so I think that when you're, when you don't have embodied boundaries, there are some people who really know how to say no, but they don't know how to say yes. Right. So I was in that category. Okay. It was like, like no to everything. And the no comes out like, no, it's like frantic. And it's like, I don't shout at you. Um,

Willow: 28:23

it. You

Leah: 28:23

You won't hear

Charna: 28:24

I, yes. And you know, it's funny. I had a guy I dated, um, for a month and he was, came on super strong. Like people would call it love bombing, but I think that's an overused term, like super, you know, romancing. And I already,

Willow: 28:40

Yeah.

Charna: 28:40

I knew from the first date, I was like, there's something, like, I don't fully trust this, you know. And then a month in, he was, uh, he, he broke up with me, which I was like on that fence waiting, I was like, oh, but his dick is so good, like, do I want to say, you know, I was like, I was like, how long can I be with this thing that's not emotionally fulfilling, but like, I'm not totally ready to stop, um, but, so it was so funny because when he called, I was like, how are you? And he's like, uh, I'm not good, And he's like, you know, I just, this is just, I just have to call it. Like he was so aggressive in how he was, it was like, okay,

Willow: 29:19

Mm.

Charna: 29:20

know, and he's like, there's nothing bad I can say. I mean, you know, you're great. And, but it was like, he, I was just listening to how he's like, I just don't know how to do this. I'm not good at this. And I'm like, okay, like that is an not embodied boundary right there. Like he needed to be, he sounded irritated. He was kind of grumpy, aggressive when it could have gone really differently. You know, and that was, it was, it was really too bad because I was like, we have all the same interests. We could still, we could be friends, you know, we could go to concerts together. Like, I don't,

Willow: 29:55

totally cut this off. So if he had done that in a compassionate boundaried way, what would that have sounded like?

Charna: 30:01

oh, he, he could have been like, you know, I've, really enjoyed the ways we've connected. Um, I, you know, I just, as I said, I don't feel emotionally available for something deeper than seeing someone periodically. And I know I may have come off really strong initially, but what my life is about right now is taking care of myself and, and, you know, doing activities solo. And, you know, but if you want to go do a concert once in a while, and if that's something you're open to, I would love that.

Willow: 30:40

Yeah.

Charna: 30:41

You know, like,

Willow: 30:42

different. are you in the Bay Area?

Charna: 30:45

I am. I'm in, I'm in Oakland. I have, I've loved, um, the guests that I've had on my podcast and I've been like, I need to have a big party

Willow: 30:53

Yeah. Invite

Charna: 30:55

all the people. Yeah.

Leah: 30:56

yeah, yeah, it's, you do really feel like you make a connection and then you want to, you want to stay connected.

Charna: 31:01

I know!

Leah: 31:01

so many cool people in this industry and it's such a joy and a delight to, to hear all these great stories.

Charna: 31:08

you create, yeah, because you're like, oh my god, the, the, the level of authenticity and rawness that would happen in a room with a bunch of people who are open

Willow: 31:15

Right.

Charna: 31:16

different ways, and

Willow: 31:17

realm yet.

Charna: 31:18

it's super fun, and then there's a level of intimacy, right? I mean, as a therapist, you build intimacy very quickly, and then You know, you get to, you get to continue it, and it's a very weird experience to do it just once, right? It's like sitting on an airplane, you're like, for like eight hours, and then you never see the person again.

Leah: 31:38

totally, totally. It's, it's very, that's a good example of that. So, um, you started to transition, right? You are, you were mostly, um, sexually connected with women during a number of years and then, because you didn't feel safe with men, and then at some point during your therapeutic process, it sounds like that changed and you became more comfortable being sexual with men. Yes?

Charna: 32:03

It's,

Leah: 32:03

Wow.

Charna: 32:04

it's pretty funny, actually. It's, um, so at the Strozzi Institute, it, uh, the way that it used to be structured is one course was eight months long. And you'd go for three days and you would have something called a commitment. They asked you to like, what are you committed to? It's like coaching language. Um, and so the first year it was about creating an embodied sexuality program for families. That was my commitment. The second year, as I'd healed more and felt safer in the world and been in a community with men and, you know, didn't shrink away from them. Um, It was to have sex with men. And what that meant to me was something profound and deep. It wasn't just about getting off, but it was like I'd had such a sexual aversion and so much shame because I thought if I wanted to have sex with men, it meant I wanted the abuse to happen.

Willow: 32:57

Oh, wow.

Charna: 32:58

It's, it's like people would not think that. It's not logical. Mm hmm.

Willow: 33:01

That's like what you were talking about that where the wires get crossed between the excitement, the pleasure and

Charna: 33:08

Mm hmm.

Willow: 33:09

trauma, right. Is

Charna: 33:10

Mm hmm. Yeah, it's, uh, even being, even when I would have crushes on boys in high school, if a boy 9 was like, just making eye contact. There would be terror that filled, flooded my system, which I can now look back and go, Oh, I was turned on. Or I was like getting excited, but I didn't know how to feel it. It was just, any increase in sensation created anxiety for me.

Leah: 33:40

gotcha.

Charna: 33:41

have

Willow: 33:41

know, I have to say like I, I did not go through the sexual abuse and trauma as a child, but I can still relate to what you're talking

Charna: 33:51

not feeling,

Willow: 33:51

know, just like having that, um, attention from, from boys and getting excited and not knowing what to do with it and not feeling like, feeling like it's, it's trying to take something from me. And I don't know what to do with that as a young girl.

Charna: 34:07

Well, and I think what's so important about that, and this is actually, um, so before I had a podcast, um, I was writing a book and it's still getting chipped away at, but the thesis of that is pretty much redefining what sexual trauma is, right? So we often think, okay, you're, you're raped. or there's child sexual abuse. But the way that I think about it is that there could, you could be a person of color in America. You could have a mentally ill parent or a drug addicted parent. There are all these situations where, um, your safety is compromised and how you have a level of vigilance in your body. You have to squeeze down to not be visible. And so how does, if you're constricting your life force, to be appropriate or acceptable in a variety of ways or safe, how can that not impact your sexual self expression,

Willow: 35:00

Right.

Charna: 35:01

right? And so that's where, um, you know, it's, it's not sexual abuse necessarily or sexual assault, but there is sexual trauma because how you, Feel how you express your sexuality, how you live in your body and allow yourself to feel pleasure or have needs or articulate yourself. Like it's not, you know, in one part of your life, it gets translated into your sex life as well.

Willow: 35:27

Right. Yeah.

Charna: 35:29

yeah, and you're totally, totally, yeah, we're, we're, sex is a microcosm

Willow: 35:35

of the entire life experience,

Leah: 35:38

Yeah, I think that's another thing that people overly compartmentalize is that, you know, there's sex and then there's everything else and not realizing that no, there's sex and it's in everything else. I mean, from the way we are created to how we feel about our bodies, to how we feel about our personal agency to make choices in our

Willow: 35:56

that we make.

Leah: 35:57

Yeah, to how we end up picking careers, to how we choose to have children or not. I mean, there's all these different elements where our sexuality due to the fact that it's also connected to our life force energy and our, and our ability to feel filled with vitality. it just, it, it, it, it affects so many other sectors of our life. That I don't think we talk enough about and build the relationship to when, when you feel healthy, sexually, how that helps you feel healthy about all these different places that are alive for you in this lifetime, being a human being. And we can't separate out sex. And that doesn't mean you should feel obligated to have sex just threaded through everything. You can make the choice to have a happy, beautiful life being celibate. You don't actually have to engage sex, but to honor sex, And sexuality and sexual energy as this life force energy that's created, connected to our ability to be creative in the world, in the way that we raise our kids, or we pursue our hobbies, or we cook. I mean, it's just, it's really part of being vital. And, and yet there's so much choice around it. And I think so many people feel like they have to compartmentalize it and then feel powerless around that. Or feel like they have to be a certain way when that's not necessarily a true authentic expression. And I'm kind of curious, due to your work, you know, for people that haven't had an unhealthy association to sexuality, who, who have been fortunate enough not to. Uh, experience sexual abuse or be overly affected by sexual trauma, and they're dating someone, or they're in love with someone, or they've been married to someone for decades, who has. What's advice? How do you help that person navigate partnership and love?

Charna: 37:46

Yeah. That's such a good question. And, you know, there are certain books I would definitely recommend that, so Healing Sex is the new title to the Survivor's Guide to Sex, and eventually when my book is out in the world, it's, it's going to be a more, a little more gender neutral, even though, uh, Healing Sex focuses more on on women. Um, I think I've had male clients who were partners of people who were sexually abused find a lot of use in that book. There's a lot of somatic practices, um, learning about boundaries. We all need that. Learning about how to ask for what you want. We all need that. Um, so it's a sex positive approach to, um, healing. sexual trauma. And so, educating yourself so that your partner doesn't have to, reading books about trauma, understanding how the nervous system works, come in for a single session if you're not doing couples therapy to get educated by your partner's trauma therapist. Um,

Leah: 38:49

I would highly recommend that to process your own feelings if sex has to be off the table for a

Charna: 38:54

oh yeah,

Leah: 38:55

is navigating that, like being able to be unedited in a confidential, in a confidential space where you can feel all your unfair feelings about having to be patient, of having to go slower, of having to respect a time of celibacy or whatever the case may

Willow: 39:12

You know, and then there's, there's partners too, they don't, they don't know for sure if their partner's been sexually abused, but they have a hunch

Charna: 39:20

it's very, oh yeah,

Willow: 39:22

Yeah.

Charna: 39:23

it's so common. And honestly, there are so So many men that, so if we're talking about a straight couple and it's not always the woman, there's plenty of men who, um, have experienced sexual trauma. Um, so

Leah: 39:36

So many that we don't even realize.

Charna: 39:39

It's just, it's just not reported.

Leah: 39:40

nother conversation we need to bring to the table. Yeah.

Charna: 39:44

it's a really important conversation. And so, you know, um, when someone has a low libido or sexually is shut down, um, One of the things, and you mentioned it, which is super important, is, is not just avoiding sex and not having it, but consciously taking it off the table for a period where it's understood, this is the agreement, so that the person who feels less safe starts to understand that their boundaries are going to be respected. And it's not just sex. It could be, I've had clients who don't want to be, they don't want their person to sit next to them too close on the couch. They don't want to sleep in the same bed. They don't want kisses or touch. I mean, like there needs to be, it's negotiated between that particular couple. But, um, You know, uh, so it asks a tremendous amount of patience on the person's part who doesn't understand that and maybe physical contact is their love language and that's really hard. Um, and so there's lots of conversations. One, though, having your own therapist where you can, you know, How do you process your needs not getting met and how can you get those, like in micro, like how can you get micro needs met? How can you still connect? Um, how can you still experience pleasure together, even if it's not sexual pleasure and connection? Um, and how do you negotiate that? Um, and there are going to be hard periods. And also, honestly, sometimes it's like, okay, so, There might be a moment where you go, this is, this is unsustainable for me. And I, can we discuss opening this relationship? And that's a real hard one for some people. Um,

Leah: 41:27

Yeah, it really confronts all sorts of layers, right? It's like the fear of abandonment, the feelings of rejection, the feelings of like, well, when can we have, you know, normal, uh, sexual connection again, or even affection again, if, if touch is off the table, you know, it's, and I want to give the audience members who are listening to this and maybe finding themselves in a similar circumstance to have a lot of hope.

Charna: 41:54

Mm

Leah: 41:54

This is not a sentence. This is not a death sentence to sex, and it's not a death sentence if you're the one who has had this kind of trauma to think that you can never have the kind of sex you want. There is, um, there is an end to the rainbow, but it's a journey, and to be mindful that you don't get too goal oriented.

Willow: 42:18

I think that's a, that's another thing that I think people can start to open up their minds to, is to reimagine what sexuality is. Like, let's go to the beach and feel the, the, the skin, the air on our skin and the water running over our skin together and like frolic in play, like really sexuality is like playfulness, right? This is our adult sandbox. And if we can start to have playfulness and fun together, um, we can just start to bring more, more joy and not take it all so seriously. But it does feel like it, it can take a long time when, when you put the sexuality on pause to heal trauma and there's no like, okay, in three months, you know, we're going to,

Leah: 43:01

Yeah,

Willow: 43:01

is going to shift. You can be like, you know, in three months, let's revisit and see where we're at. But,

Leah: 43:07

but it's

Willow: 43:08

don't know how long it's going to take. Yeah.

Charna: 43:11

There's a lot in what you said and, you know, it's, um, one of the things that came out of working at Good Vibrations that had me open towards men was men would come in with, um, um, erectile issues or, or desires that were outside of the box. Like they were straight men feeling so threatened because they wanted something in their butt. You

Leah: 43:34

Yeah,

Charna: 43:35

and, and, but when your penis doesn't work the way you think it should and you have to, and I'm like, yay, this is an opportunity to understand how fingers work and how mouths work and, you know, and define, redefining what sex is, that it's not so PIV centric and penis and vaginas, you know, centered. And, um, But we're talking like, you know, taking a step even further back from that, which again, it's, you know, you were talking like eco sexual, right? Like how do you, how do you make love? Yeah, how do you make love to a tree? Um, how do you, how do you find pleasure in, in, in other ways? And, um, and that asks a lot of people if they're very straight to step outside. And I liked earlier that you used finger quotes to be like normal, because Let's, yeah, exactly. Like,

Leah: 44:28

Like, normal's not even great. I mean, who really wants to be normal in this day and age?

Charna: 44:35

Well, and that's, I mean, you know, and you know, in the Bay Area, I joke that you can throw an egg corn and hit a therapist on someone in a polyamorous relationship. Like, it's, you know,

Leah: 44:46

So true

Charna: 44:46

Like, it's just so, it's so there that it's like, well, but, you know, whatever your attachment style is, like, you may need to navigate. Who and how many people you're committed to. But, um, yeah, the intimacy thing and the patience thing. And I, you know, for some people it may mean that they, if your partner is, is, has had sexual trauma, um, that they're aware of and they're not interested in working on it and healing it, you need to really consider if that's a huge priority to you, what you need to do. Because you can't force someone to be interested in sex or in addressing that part of a connection. And, um, you know, it's very different if the person who's like, Okay, I have sexual trauma and I want to have a pleasure filled relationship to my body and to the world. That's a very different motivation. Um,

Leah: 45:52

And I think also redefining what intimacy is, because I think people hear the word intimacy and they immediately go sexual intimacy. And, and we just did an episode, um, back in the end of November, uh, talking about just 12 different types of intimacy other than sexual. And, and when you can see that there are ways to connect with intimacy. your lover or a friend or family or even in the office. Ways of building trust and intimacy which allows for authentic vulnerability, which deepens trust, which leads to presence. All these things that you can do outside the bedroom only make when you choose to navigate intimacy sexually that much richer. So learning about these different areas of intimacy I think is so valuable because it prepares you while you're on the break. Where you don't have to be in the fight or flight response because you're Propelling yourself into a sexual environment or even into just having touch that you don't like. That you get to finally say no to so that you can eventually say yes to.

Charna: 46:56

Yes.

Leah: 47:00

hear that No, and that that no is honored by you and honored by other. I mean, I just think having other places to build connection while you're doing this work can be so helpful for the partnership in terms of being in it long distance and seeing it to tremendous transformation.

Charna: 47:19

Absolutely. Absolutely. And, you know, I say that a lot to my clients, it's until you have, and I've experienced this myself, right? Until you have an embodied no, you can't have an authentic yes. It's because the yes often for, especially women, but plenty of men, is there's a default. It's like, oh, I'm just going to please. I want to be liked. I'm just going to say yes. Um, or I'm just going to constantly hang out in that middle zone of maybe and I'm never really, uh, I don't know what I really want and I, I don't know what I don't want.

Willow: 47:54

I've, I've come across so many men who are like, I don't know if I can trust women because they don't, I don't, I don't trust if their yes is authentic. I don't, they don't know. I haven't experienced a woman who's had an authentic yes yet.

Leah: 48:07

Yeah.

Charna: 48:08

what makes it even more complicated, right, is if you get into parts work, right? If you're looking at, okay, so there's a five year old part of me that doesn't want to be sexual yet, and then there's a 45 year old part of me that's like, That really wants to have sex with you and wants to rip your clothes off. And, and then how do you listen as a partner who wants to be respectful and respect boundaries? That's a really tricky one. How do you attune to all parts of your, your partner, right? And how does your partner attune to all parts of her or him of themselves, you know,

Willow: 48:42

Well, that's where skills come in. That's where you come in, Charna, right? You gotta learn these things. So when, when clients come to you to work with you, like, what, what is sort of, I guess, maybe like, what's one of the main sort of genres of clientele that you work with? Do you work more with women who've been through sexual abuse? Are you working with men who are trying to deal with women who've been through sexual abuse? Or is it a big spectrum?

Charna: 49:05

all of the above, all of the above. Uh, and you know, there's, it's always an interesting thing as a practitioner. You can track themes. Often they're, you know, at a certain point I, I noticed they'd be like this reflection of me. It's like, like maybe more extreme in each client that would come in, that come in threes, and they might reflect something that's going on in my life, you know? Um,

Willow: 49:28

Yeah.

Charna: 49:29

but, um, I have an equal amount of male and female clients. Um, I have periods where I'm working with more couples versus individuals. Um,

Willow: 49:41

What, what are some of the like primary things that you tend to give people? Like for me, I'm always like, what's your essence? Like, let's get in touch with that first. You know, what are some of the first things that you give people?

Charna: 49:53

Well, definitely. I mean, I, I, I love working on embodied boundaries with people, um, because it can be so liberating for them. And there's an immediate, like, I used to run an embodied sexuality group for women years ago. And I remember doing a group exercise, and then, with boundaries, and had, we had our hands on the back of this woman's body. back and and she said she felt like they were like angel wings and then she left there and had some kind of harassment front on the Bart, you know, and she texted the group. She's like, oh my god, my angel wings came in handy. Like she immediately, she's like, I felt safe. I felt, you know,

Willow: 50:31

Wow.

Leah: 50:31

Beautiful.

Charna: 50:33

remarkable, you know, versus talking about something when you simply have a concept and you can't take a new action, but she could physically feel a new experience in her body having left the session.

Leah: 50:46

She had embodied knowledge at that point that goes into your cells. It's way different than in your head.

Willow: 50:51

Yeah.

Charna: 50:52

Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Um, so that's, you know, uh, I do body work, and I do these physical practices, and I do guided meditations and visualizations, and I, you know, I work in a variety of ways, um, and helping people, um, so do, I also do a lot of psychoeducation around trauma, so helping people understand their nervous system, and, um, is a really important thing also. Because there's a lot less judgment that happens when you're like, Oh, this is hyper arousal, an increase in sensation. This is hypo arousal, a decrease in sensation. And when I suddenly find myself falling asleep in a hard conversation, I'm hypo aroused. There's so much anxiety. My system is calming itself, a computer shutting, you know,

Leah: 51:42

Yes.

Willow: 51:43

good to understand that about yourself, right?

Charna: 51:46

Right? Or like, Oh, what are the things? So help starting to track those things. What are, how can I start to notice when I'm going outside my, my window of capacity to be with this emotion or sensation? What are the things that trigger me? What are the things that calm me?

Leah: 52:03

Yeah.

Charna: 52:04

And, and starting to introduce people to those kinds of options. Um, you know, so that they can try to catch things before

Leah: 52:14

They escalate.

Charna: 52:16

exactly, it's much harder once you've left that window to reground yourself, um.

Leah: 52:23

Yeah, well, you know, it's just a reminder to all of you listening that the statistics are so high regarding people who have had experiences with sexual harm in one form or another that you will encounter in in on the path of love you know people who have And been hurt in this way. And so, us educating ourselves as a culture, as caring human beings, a part of this human family experience, it's important that we have these kinds of conversations, that we normalize these conversations, and that we're there for each other, and that we remain curious. And, um, and help us really shift these statistics, hopefully in a way, you know, that we can start to eradicate the sexual harm that is so prevalent, especially towards young people. And that's not from a place of creating fear. Creating hope. And so I really want to thank you today. Um, for being on the show and, and, and sharing your work and the studies and the healing that you've done for your own life and for so many others. And, uh, your information will be in the show notes. So please, um, Take a look at her incredible stuff. She's doing amazing work out there. You've got online courses that'll be launching soon and plans like a book. And, uh, and we'd love to have you back on the show.

Charna: 53:50

so much. You're lovely. I've really enjoyed, um, the range of questions that you've talked about and I look forward to having you on my show and, and getting to continue our conversation. And, and, uh, I'll just mention that, um, if you want to listen to my podcast, which you lovelies will be on, um, it's called Laid Open Podcast. And, and yeah, you can find me at either charanakacel. com or passionatelife. org.

Willow: 54:21

Awesome. Is there one last thing, one last little thread of wisdom that you would love to leave our listeners with?

Charna: 54:28

Hmm. Yeah. I think that. One of the things that's such a huge resource that often gets neglected is awareness of the pelvic floor. And we learn about it as like in mula bandha or learning how to strengthen it if you have a baby and you're kegeling, you know, but really using it as a tool for managing anxiety and actually starting to introduce yourself to more ground or pleasure. Um, Being able to breathe out. So for, for anyone, we all have pelvic floors, right? For, uh, male bodied humans, I, I say, I breathe, breathe out your asshole, breathe out your vulva, you know, and,

Leah: 55:20

Relax your ass.

Charna: 55:21

yeah, because I used to, when I worked at Good Vibrations, there was a guy I worked with who, who'd get pissed off and he'd be like, I'll be in the back, like he'd get pissed at a customer, he'd be like, I'll be in the back, breathe out my asshole, So,

Leah: 55:36

great. That's

Charna: 55:37

and it really shifts your mood and your state and, um, you know, and it takes sometimes if we're dissociated from our bodies and we don't live lower in our body, we don't even know what our pelvic floor is. But it's the, the muscles around your genitals and anus and, you know, If you bear down as if you're making a bowel movement or you pull up as if you're stopping the flow of urine, but just let it be soft rather than too intense and just breathe there. And it's hard to have a tight jaw, right? It just drops your energy lower in your body. And if that one thing became a daily practice, you might see a difference in your day.

Leah: 56:18

Yeah, that is so true. So everybody, remember to breathe out your butt. Yes, and because there's sphincter muscles in multiple parts of the body, the eyes, the mouth, the throat, uh, the vaginal canal, there are, if you can relax one sphincter muscle, it helps relax the other sphincter muscles. And I love this idea of like breathing through your butt or breathing through your vagina and just allowing the breath to actually come from that place so that the exhale can then like really drop away from that.

Willow: 56:51

And you're really softening those lower chakras, which allows all the upper chakras to

Leah: 56:55

Yes, and who wants to be a tight ass? There's not a lot of fun in a tight ass.

Charna: 57:03

You

Leah: 57:03

Happy asses! Yes,

Charna: 57:16

yes.

Leah: 57:17

it's good to have strong pelvic floor muscles, but also hyper relaxed. pelvic floor muscles because we have so much tension for a lot of

Willow: 57:23

that's

Charna: 57:24

my god.

Leah: 57:25

God, we should do another episode

Willow: 57:26

Just on

Leah: 57:26

muscles because it is a fascinating thing. Yes, it's the path to sexual mastery relies all in your pelvic floor,

Charna: 57:36

Yaaaawww.

Leah: 57:37

Um, so with that, we will bid you farewell. Thank you everyone for tuning in and love,

Willow: 57:43

Love, love,

Leah: 57:44

love, love, love.

Announcer: 57:45

Now, our favorite part, the dish.

Willow: 57:49

Ready to dish it out on Little Miss Charnacacel. I loved her. I thought she was just so I don't know. I just want to hang out with her. I want to be her friend.

Leah: 57:59

Yeah, she was great. Really enjoyed her company and, um, you know, there were these moments off camera, I don't remember how much of it wove into the interview, but we really giggled quite a lot. She's actually very fun. Um, and this is like intense subject material. So I don't know how humorous it was during the actual interview, but like out of interview, real delight. She's a character. She's super fun. What a great therapist.

Willow: 58:26

God. And what a journey she has been on throughout her life. And like, what a testament she is to the, to the reality that like, no matter what you've been through in your childhood, growing up, like that you can come to a healthy relationship with your own sexuality and actually enjoy it and start to open up boxes around your sexuality that you didn't even know existed. I just thought she was a gem.

Leah: 58:52

Well, and I think, too, she brought so many, um, I think, intricate, specific details that are a part of the sexual healing journey from trauma, you know, the things that really stuck out to me was the rigid, like, the armor, the plate of, um, and then sort of the shrill no. When you're in that hypervigilant and the confusion between, like, you're actually in a state of arousal and I'm not saying that that means your clitoris is filled with blood, it might be, but like aroused states is really like when energy is rushing through the body and, and the confusion between that and like desire and fear because they are, they're like two sides of the same coin. Um, And just bringing, you know, I love the piece around like compassionate boundaries versus what was, what was the

Willow: 59:42

was like hard boundaries or disembodied,

Leah: 59:46

or rigid boundaries. It's like when you get really rigid with boundaries versus like compassionate boundaries and, and how the whole Aikido piece wove in the softening of the boundary because you can step out of the way. And yet there's also power in having your words and making people aware that they're actually crossing energetic boundaries. I think both are very valuable. But when you start to play with mastery, there's a way for you to be in your most comfortable boundary world, where it doesn't have to produce conflict. It actually, you can be connected to it from a place of flow. And I think that's often the essence of Aikido. It's like, it's this, it's this, here comes a yang attack, but it's actually the yin that deflects the attack. Yeah. And I just, I love the parallels of that.

Willow: 1:00:38

Yeah. And how fun for her as when she was learning it and starting to embody it and starting to really get gain these skills in her Soma, like how fun for her to be working at Good Vibrations in San Francisco on Haight street. I don't know. I'm guessing on Haight street. You know, I don't know. But yeah, just all the characters. I'm sure that would come in there and just what a, what a great sandbox to be playing with those new skills that she was gaining at that time.

Leah: 1:01:04

yeah, yeah, yeah, so really fun, really cool, and really important conversation that really brought to life for me the need for us to talk about, um, male sexual, uh, wounding and abuse and, you know, bring that to the table in terms of having a conversation because, uh, the focus when talking about sexual trauma very much seems to be centered on girls and women much of the time. But what, what goes really undiscussed and unexplored is, is all the boys and men that have been harmed sexually and the impact that that has on them and the secrecy that still is shrouded in that. And, and this sort of way that we hold that as if it's not as harmful to them as it is to girls. Um, from this place, I think of where we over sexualize boys. Um, or we, we are so, we've so normalized their desires that it ends up minimizing the impact of trauma when it happens to them. And I think there's still so much secrecy around that in a way that, you know, could just use some evolutional change.

Willow: 1:02:20

Yeah. And, and new, new, um, light shed on it for sure. I mean, there's so much, there's so much shame in general around sexual trauma, sexual abuse for anyone of any gender. Um, but I think, yeah, for, for boys and men especially, they, they'll go a lifetime and never talk about it. Um,

Leah: 1:02:40

please reach out to us on our Speak Pipe hotline or just email us at support at sexremagic. com. Please let us know of sexperts you would like to see on the show, whether they specialize in sexual trauma or various sexual, um, subcategories or different authors. We'd love to get your favorite people on the show and we can continue to have a diverse conversation about. Reimagining this beautiful world of sexuality with y'all.

Willow: 1:03:10

much love.

Leah: 1:03:11

Much love! Toodaloo!

Announcer: 1:03:14

Thanks for tuning in. This episode was hosted by Tantric Sex Master Coach and Positive Psychology Facilitator, Leah Piper, as well as by Chinese and Functional Medicine Doctor and Taoist Sexology Teacher, Dr. Willow Brown. Don't forget, your comments, likes, subscribes, and suggestions matter. Let's realize this new world together.