Dan & Elizabeth: Painful Sex? You're Not Alone > Redefining Pleasure with Sensory Exploration | #91

In this episode, we're excited to introduce you to Elizabeth Wood and Dan Powers, a couple dedicated to helping others overcome sexual pain, shame, and disconnection. With Elizabeth's focus on vulva and vaginal pain and Dan's expertise as a surrogate partner therapist, they bring a wealth of knowledge and experience to the conversation. 

YOU’LL LEARN: 

• How to overcome religious trauma and sexual shame that block pleasure
• The mind-body connection between pelvic floor pain, trauma, and negative anticipation
• Using surrogate partner therapy to help clients navigate emotions and maintain healthy boundaries
• Rewiring neural pathways through sensory experiences to enhance pleasure and heal pain

EPISODE LINKS

• Website | BeyondtheBedroomEvents.com 
• Website | Pleasureengineer.com 
• Website | BedEvents.com 
• SxR #35 | Surrogate partner Therapy with Dan Powers
• Book | The Pleasure Prescription by Elizabeth Wood & Dee Hartman
• Free Gift | Dan's 5 Tips to Pleasuring a Women
• Free Gift | Elizabeth & Dee’s 5 Exercises to Decrease Pain

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KING & QUEEN OF HEARTS. Leah & Willow's King & Queen of Hearts Intimacy Toolkit is on sale. Use Coupon  Code KINGANDQUEEN10 for 10% off. 

Transcript

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 1:14

All right, Dan and Elizabeth support cisgendered women and their partners in overcoming obstacles, impacting their ability to feel pleasure in all aspects of their life. They are a really amazing couple and their unique use of pleasure prescriptions, guide women along their journey to recovery from unwanted vulva and vaginal pain. So, I mean, Elizabeth is an incredible wealth of wisdom and knowledge when it comes to prescriptions on how to overcome sexual pain. And then Dan, just what a magical man Dan is. He helps women understand how to be in partnership, like literally walks them through it.

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 1:59

And he has so many certifications in so many realms of sexuality. Everything from Tantra certifications to the Erotic Blueprint to sexological work. He's a uh, uh,

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 2:11

Surrogate partner.

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 2:13

Yes, a surrogate partner, which we talk more about in our first episode with Dan, which you can check out. But boy, what a cool couple. I love them. So everybody, are you ready? Are you ready to tune in, turn on and fall in love

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 2:30

with

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 2:30

Dan

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 2:33

Elizabeth.

Speaker: 2:34

Welcome to the Sex Reimagined Podcast, where sex is shame free and pleasure forward. Let's get

Speaker 2: 2:42

into the show.

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 2:43

Dan and Elizabeth, one of my favorite couples of all time. I'm so happy you're here.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 2:49

I am so excited to meet Elizabeth because we did an interview with Dan not too long ago. I was in Portugal when we did it, and I just, I think he was one of my favorite interviews. So far it was just so fascinating. So I'm excited to meet you, Elizabeth, and to hear about your journey with this work, with sacred sexuality and you know, what you've been doing in your work in the world.

Elizabeth Wood | SxR Guest Sexpert: 3:16

Oh, you. I'm so happy be here and it's a true pleasure.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 3:21

Yeah. So,

Dan Powers | SxR Guest Sexpert: 3:22

It's always fun to be back with you two as well.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 3:24

So, you guys have been at this a long time and probably have seen all kinds of clients from all walks of life, and often when people are coming to, either expand their sexual experience or their sexual repertoire. There's some kind of healing that has to be done, right? There's some kind of often a trauma or some kind of shame or guilt or something where they feel like they are not enough that has to be addressed. And so really want to focus in on that today. And I guess just get your expertise and your wisdom around that.

Dan Powers | SxR Guest Sexpert: 4:03

Happy to talk about it.

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 4:04

Yeah. So tell me a little bit Dan, why don't you go first about what's one of the most common issues that your student or client is wrestling with when it comes to shame?

Dan Powers | SxR Guest Sexpert: 4:18

There's so many women that come to me that have religious trauma. What I call religious trauma. You know the, sex is dirty, sex is bad. Save it for the one you love. You know, somehow there's this magic switch that's going to happen when you get married. But only when you get married. If you are not married, then you shouldn't have sex. You should hold off. And what ends up happening is they get to the point where they get older or even if they do get married, it's not very pleasurable. They've got a lot of shame about their body and just sex in general. And so they don't want to do it. So they're totally disempowered around their sexual desires and pleasure. Just like the movie Leo Grand, Good Luck To You Leo Grand. Which is a great movie. And I've had clients that have actually brought that movie to me. You know, she didn't have pleasure around sex. She was there to support her husband who basically rolled on top of her pumped until he climaxed and then rolled over and fell asleep. And she was left there going, well, this isn't very fun. What? What's in it for me? And there was nothing for her at that point. And so that's probably one of the biggest traumas that I've seen with women.

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 5:37

Wow, that's really interesting. Willow and I were just featured on another podcast and the show is really helping Christian men show up in their marriages differently because their wives have basically stopped having sex with them. And they don't understand why. And a part of it is this religious conditioning where it was like finally they got married and they could finally do it. And now they're hurt and upset because they don't understand why their wife doesn't want to have sex anymore because they feel entitled. No, this was supposed to be, this is how it's supposed to be according to our religion. I'm supposed to get sex, not realizing that it's supposed to be for her too. And there's actually this really strange, like almost innocence about it when you're in that kind of sheltered, patriarchal minded environment. It's what you've been groomed to expect. And so there's such little sexual education, especially around pleasure. And if you've never had sex before going into a marriage you don't have any experience or real skill at it. So I find that really interesting. What about you, Elizabeth? Oh, go ahead Dan.

Dan Powers | SxR Guest Sexpert: 6:46

I want to say what part of what happens with that too, which kinda leads to what Elizabeth works on, is they get to the point where there is such shame around it and it hasn't been pleasurable, and so their bodies start to shut down and then it starts becoming painful. And so now not only is there, well, gee, I don't really want to do this because religion has told me for years and years that I'm not supposed to do this. But now it actually hurts as well. And so I don't want to do it.

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 7:12

Why would I if it hurts, it sucks. Yeah. Elizabeth, you specialize in this, right?

Elizabeth Wood | SxR Guest Sexpert: 7:19

So, my work is really with vulva and vaginal vagina owners who are suffering from unwanted sexual pain vulva and vaginal pain. And so there, that is the predominant for my client base and the women that, that we see together. The predominant, if you take away what is behind the shame, if you look at what's behind the shame, so often it is pain. And what Dr. Willow said earlier was a feeling of their broken. there's something wrong or they, they'll just never feel pleasure. And that's actually not true because there's so many ways that we can introduce pleasure into the body, into the relationship that really has nothing to do with sticking anything anywhere. Because, and from my perspective, the word pleasure has been overlaid with sex and sexuality. And so really understanding that pleasure, as far as what we define it, is anything that's pleasing from an emotional and a physical perspective. It's a sense of joy, of happiness. It can be celebrated and joyed alone and then also celebrated with others. I mean, pleasure is a feeling that makes you happy. It makes you smile. So I think that often when someone hears even the word arousal, but pleasure and arousal, they think oh no. Oh, no sex. And so like introducing especially a pain, someone suffering with pain, introducing them to just what smells good to you? What tastes good to you? So that we can begin to rewire that neural pathway, that pleasure does not ever, should never feel bad unless of course you know that pain is your kink.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 9:33

Yeah, exactly

Elizabeth Wood | SxR Guest Sexpert: 9:35

And then it's highly pleasurable. But, we shouldn't experience pain with sex ever. That is an indication that something is wrong.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 9:45

Somethings off.

Elizabeth Wood | SxR Guest Sexpert: 9:46

And that's the overlay where shame comes from. Trauma impacts that. And then also, so does one of my favorite things to talk about. Is lack of arousal. If the body's not aroused, I don't care what you try to do. If I don't have, if arousal isn't pleasant in, in all of the participant's bodies, there's a stronger likelihood that we're going to feel and experience pain.

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 10:13

Wow. Yeah.

Dan Powers | SxR Guest Sexpert: 10:14

One of the reasons why we have to recommend that they use lube all the time is because there is no foreplay. Women typically aren't aroused when they're engaging with their partner, and so lube will at least help a little bit.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 10:27

I love how you're speaking to Elizabeth, like find pleasure outside of sexuality, find pleasure anywhere. Like what does pleasure feel like to you? That is, knowing that in your body, knowing that viscerally is going to lead to so much more potential and possibility for arousal. You know, bring that lubrication in or that coconut oil in, and then it's like, okay now we got a playing field. Now we have a chance.

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 10:54

Well, and it changes your belief system, right? So it's like if I associate pleasure with only sexuality, then I'm not living a pleasurable life. And pleasure. I mean, I have a pleasure list. Like what gives me pleasure? Oh my gosh, having a glass of Sauvignon Blanc, people watching, talking to my Aunt Mary, going and feeling the Hawaiian winds like I'm doing right now, touch my skin. Eating Strata Pie. I mean, I got the list goes on and on. And if you don't have a reference, like if you have a hard time coming up with what gives me pleasure. This whole attitude of being turned on, of living a turned on life that doesn't have to be sexual either. It's really just about feeling radiant and there is something about sensuality and sexuality that has a flavor that feels lit up and you feel alive. I think there is a connection between those sensations and our sexual energy. That doesn't mean our bodies have to be sexualized to feel it. But there is a source of energy I think that comes from the second chakra. If you're into Chakras or the sexual creative life force energy that lives in all of our bodies that can be resourced there, but that doesn't mean you have to be horny or turned on or needing to be touched.

Elizabeth Wood | SxR Guest Sexpert: 12:13

Well, so there, so I'm going to go because you said the word touch, but the senses are present and they are survival tools. If a baby, because infants, newborns can't see. So if they can't, in the days before milk bottle feeding, if they couldn't smell and locate the nipple in order to get the milk they didn't thrive. So that sense of smell is important. The sense of taste is important. Because if you're even an animal in the wild and you taste something that is poisonous, typically it tastes foul or just rancid, whatever, and they spit it out, that's a survival mechanism. So we forget that the five senses. We were born with our five senses on fire and ready to be engaged. And so we forget that employing or engaging any one of the five senses is, we were encoded with that from birth. And then when we overlay any or all of the senses into our love play and our lovemaking, it's a more enriching and engaged full body experience because, you know, and when we diminish one sense with the blindfold or something across the eyes, even when we close the eyes, we have a heightened sense of all of the other four senses. So why aren't we playing with these and engaging with these on a regular basis outside of the realm of sex and sexuality?

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 15:12

Well, you know, that's interesting because it's my go-to place to bring myself back into the present moment. If I find myself drifting, especially in sex and I'm worried about the list or I'm getting hungry, but I should be paying attention, I will go, okay, like just take a second, breathe and now what can you feel on your skin? What are you hearing? What are you smelling? What's the taste in your mouth? How do you feel and experience the light in front of your eyes? And all of that just brings me right back into the moment. And so I think what you're keying into is wouldn't it be wonderful to put your attention somewhere else other than the pain by connecting to the five senses? And so explain to me like what are the obstacles or the resistance that you both experience in your work to trying something new on? Do you encounter that very often?

Elizabeth Wood | SxR Guest Sexpert: 16:07

All the time.

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 16:08

All the time.

Elizabeth Wood | SxR Guest Sexpert: 16:09

So,

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 16:10

Constantly probably.

Elizabeth Wood | SxR Guest Sexpert: 16:11

Somebody who presents with pain. As a predominant experience or sensation in their body. The last thing that they really want to explore is pleasure, because there's a belief, a as I said earlier, that their, something they did is causing the pain. They started inserting tampons before they were really supposed to, whatever it might be. They started exploring their own genitalia back to the religious shame, you know, and they did it in secret. So, when we introduce something new to them, there is such resistance because they don't have a felt sense that they are capable of experiencing pleasure and that's why it's baby steps. That's why I don't talk about orgasms, I don't talk about climax. I really don't talk about arousal from a sexual perspective. I talk about what if somebody were upstairs baking bread or tollhouse cookies, the second that the molecules made it down to this bottom floor, my sense of smell would be aroused to a new sensation. And so that's how I talk about arousal. But it is baby steps because yes, there's an avoidance of feeling. I mean it's a scientific it's a body mechanism that we avoid sensation when our primary sensation is that of pain.

Dan Powers | SxR Guest Sexpert: 17:48

So, And I would say for me it's the opposite because by the time the women are coming to me, they're looking for that change. They're wanting it. And they're thinking, oh, he's the expert, so I'm going to go with the flow of things. And I do take baby steps as well. I don't just say, Hey let's go do this kind of thing here. But, take those baby steps. You know, as a surrogate partner, one of the very first exercises we do is what I call the object exercise, where they close their eyes and I put an object in their hand for them just to start using their senses. How does it feel? Does it feel cold? Does it feel warm? Does it have ridges on it? You know, what's this, the texture of it, something that they wouldn't normally do when we give them objects that they feel all the time. So, of course the first thing they want to do is guess what it is.

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 18:32

Right, right.

Dan Powers | SxR Guest Sexpert: 18:34

But you know

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 18:35

Now describe it. Don't guess. Yeah.

Dan Powers | SxR Guest Sexpert: 18:37

yeah. I start to help them explore a little more. It's like, well, does it have a taste? Does it have a smell? Does it have a sound that's associated with it? And start looking at some of these nuances of different sensations as opposed to just picking it up and like, okay yeah this is a hard object and put it down. Like, what are some of the attributes of this thing that you're feeling and start to touch for your own pleasure.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 19:05

So you're really getting them in touch with their sensuality, with their senses, with their five senses, and also their imagination, which I think is so important too arousal to sensitivity and sensation. So I want to just pause for a second, Dan, and you said, relationships surrogate. So a lot of our listeners probably don't know exactly what that means. It was new to me when I first met you, so maybe you could give us just a quick little overview of what exactly it is that you do.

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 19:36

Yes. And let's also preempt the listeners to go to the podcast and listen to Dan's episode because it was released in May. And you can deep dive with us there. But Dan, yeah, let's have a quickie.

Dan Powers | SxR Guest Sexpert: 19:47

Yeah.

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 19:48

You know how we like quickies.

Dan Powers | SxR Guest Sexpert: 19:50

No. Yeah, so Surrogate Partner Therapy is where we work with a client to create a relationship. Typically, they have not been in relationship ever. So think of the 40 year old virgin, 50 year old Virgin. I've even worked with people in their seventies. And we're creating a relationship all the way from beginning to end, including the conscious uncoupling piece of it. And it works in conjunction with a therapist. So it's a triadic model, and we walk through those entire steps.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 20:25

Awesome. And as I understand it, Elizabeth, you did this work for some time as well.

Elizabeth Wood | SxR Guest Sexpert: 20:31

I did.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 20:32

Yeah.

Elizabeth Wood | SxR Guest Sexpert: 20:32

I am in retirement. And for me it was absolutely the most heart-centered work I have ever done. I don't want to call it the method, but the practice, the methodology,

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 20:47

Uhhuh.

Elizabeth Wood | SxR Guest Sexpert: 20:48

process is unbelievably because when the client works with the surrogate partner, they're in the experience of it, as Dan said, experiencing what it was like to first meet the partner, the person they're dating, so to speak, all the way to you know, from what's your favorite color, to a little bit about, you know no, a lot about what they like and don't like, and I absolutely found myself falling in love. Not the same way I share love with my husband, but falling in love and honoring each and every client that I worked with. And I loved it. And it's it's full on. And these relationships, oh, so then they go and work with a therapist on the process part. So, or the experience, and they're with a therapist to process anything. Elizabeth looked at me funny. Or boy, Elizabeth has a lot of gray hair. And I need to figure out a way to tell her that you know, sometimes it looks dirty. You know things like that. Like, or it smells dirty. So that's where they work with the therapist. But these relationships can go on for, we only see them once a week, sometimes, twice a month they can go on for, you know, years. And so I loved the work. However, it really, my focus moved toward helping those who suffer from unwanted pain. Finding pleasure in their lives.

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 22:23

Yeah, so Elizabeth has written a book with her partner and it is the Pleasure Prescription. When did that come out, Elizabeth?

Elizabeth Wood | SxR Guest Sexpert: 22:33

It came out in 2022, where we know 22, 22, 21 June. Okay. We wrote it during covid.

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 22:43

Yeah. It's a covid baby.

Elizabeth Wood | SxR Guest Sexpert: 22:46

It was released during Covid and so we it's a relatively new book, and it was my other business partner because I am in business with my husband Dan. This person right here. And Dee is my co-author on the book, and she is a 35 plus year pelvic floor physical therapist. And so she's been working in that same domain. Hands on from the medical model alleviating and her focus has been on sexual health and sexual pain. So we, we like to say that I'm the pleasure side of the coin and Dee's the pain. But you know it's a really, it's a fantastic book that helps those who are suffering most often alone and in silence. And the numbers are huge.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 23:39

Mm.

Elizabeth Wood | SxR Guest Sexpert: 23:40

You know, in, the United States alone, there are millions and millions of women and or vulva and vagina owners. And typically they see three to four doctors between or before receiving a diagnosis. And I wrote it down cause it's in the book and only 40% of them actually receive the right diagnosis. So it is a worldwide epidemic of those who are suffering from pain with sex. And I'll go back to my you know, my, my spiel on we're undereducated in terms of how to adequately arouse our own bodies and our partner's bodies. And so, my push is arousal, arousal, and more arousal. And how do we help all of the listeners understand that better because the more arousal we feel that the less painful sex will ever be.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 24:42

That's right. So the Pleasure Prescription, first of all, fantastic title.

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 24:47

Great title.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 24:47

Second of all, I can't wait to read a book because I do a lot of pelvic floor work myself.

Elizabeth Wood | SxR Guest Sexpert: 24:51

Ah.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 24:52

So it will be very informative to my work with women. And, you know, it's incredible too. Like what unravels from a woman's vagina, like what comes out when she goes through that healing process. I mean because I do all do a lot of somato emotional work there and it's just like you can't make that stuff up with your mind. It's coming from the soma,

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 25:17

Yeah.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 25:17

it's coming from the cellular body. And I think that's something that both of you are doing so beautifully in your work is you're actually working somatically with people to get results, to get changes. And I mean, what an incredible, incredible gift to those in the world who either haven't had a relationship or 40 year old virgins or have been just through one damaging relationship after another. And don't know what it feels like to have a good relationship, a healthy relationship modeled. You know, I often say even though that relationship ended, it was, it's a successful relationship. You know, had a good run and we had a conscious uncoupling and you know, we still have respect and care for each other, so that can be a very successful relationship. So it's just so amazing what you both have done and are still doing. And I'm sure the people that you have walked through these processes are just as much in love with you both as you are and with them.

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 26:22

know, Elizabeth your book was written initially, right? For practitioners to give them added tools?

Elizabeth Wood | SxR Guest Sexpert: 26:28

No, for the pain, for the pain client, the demographic of vulva and vagina owners for suffering. Again, as I said, most often alone and in silence, even in their relationship, the pain clients that the book was written for. They really want to have a baby, but they haven't had sex because it hurts. And they won't tell their partners about it because they're so ashamed. Here we go back to the shame piece. They're so ashamed that something is, they were bad or they are bad. They're doing something wrong. Yeah.

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 27:05

Their body's wrong and their body can't be fixed.

Dan Powers | SxR Guest Sexpert: 27:08

They're broken. Yeah.

Elizabeth Wood | SxR Guest Sexpert: 27:09

So that's who it was written for because there are millions and millions people, we have readers now, thankfully, from all over the world. It hasn't been translated into other language yet. However, we've been contacted by people in Estonia. We've been contacted by people in India asking questions, based off their reading the book. So the secondary market is those who work with these with these bodies, the pelvic floor physical therapists, the nurse practitioners. So they,

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 27:48

ba, I had it backwards.

Elizabeth Wood | SxR Guest Sexpert: 27:50

Yeah, even the sex therapists, because they're at a loss. So it's been a guidebook that they then use in their own practices to help that population that we all serve actually use the tools in the book to help and heal themselves. So, you know that's what it was written for. And that's our secondary market and we're loving it. So I love Dr. Willow that you want to read it and

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 28:17

Yeah. I'm thinking every Dakini and Daka I know would want that information and those tools.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 28:23

Everyone listening must read the book. I mean, it's super

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 28:28

yeah, I

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 28:28

valuable information for partners as well. I mean, even if the woman doesn't have pain, I'm sure there's gems and pearls in there that everyone can glean from.

Elizabeth Wood | SxR Guest Sexpert: 28:40

Yeah. And the third section of the book is actually written for those who want to share this with a partner. And so what we recommend is that either the partner reads the book or they read it in tandem. And then there are practices in there that we all use all the time with our clients. The wheel of I, I got permission from Betty Martin write about the wheel of consent. So that is a game that they can, games, that the three minute game they can play with their partners. We've also written about setting appropriate boundaries and agreements and what that really means. So that third section is if they so choose, because what we're trying to do is give the, those suffering from the pain. We're trying to give them the power and the choice that they then make. I mean, of course we want them to share this. And, most of the partners, we've been in speaking engagements where the partners have come up and said, my wife needs this book, or I don't know what to do. And it was actually a gentleman who came up to me one time and he was talking about both his wife and his brother's wife suffer from pain. And they don't know what to do. They don't know how to support them. They don't know how to help them. They don't even know how to talk to them about this because their partners are so shut down. So they've actually been buying the book, reading it, and saying, wow, let me present this to my partner to see if this can be helpful to them. So, we're definitely not excluding the partners, but we're giving those suffering with pain, you know, choice, which they rarely seem to make use of or even understand that they have.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 30:32

So powerful. It's so empowering to give them tools.

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 30:34

Yes, and especially when you feel so inpotent to like create change or to help your partner, there's nothing worse than feeling helpless. And so to have something to reach to and then to feel like someone is speaking your language. I'm wondering, Dan, how do you use this in your work?

Dan Powers | SxR Guest Sexpert: 30:52

So I use the exercises all the time with clients, especially my surrogate clients. We'll go through the three minute game with them in the circuit partner world, it's a two-way street. So we are interacting back and forth in the sexological body work, somatic work that I do, it's one way. But even with that, we still will let them do, you know, some kind of touch on me, but, just be a arm press or something along those lines. So, constantly teaching them, how to relax into their body, how to feel for their own pleasure. Know, what is triggering them, where are their minds going? When they start getting to a point where, they're reaching a higher level of arousal or something along those lines because oftentimes that's dangerous and scary for them and so they will disappear. And so, there's exercises, the book that help to get around that as well as just communicating, just having conversation about what's going on, what their desires are. There's so many women are afraid to talk about or don't even know.

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 33:32

That's a bit like uninvestigated. And the other thing that sort of bubbled up is, I imagine because this was true for me when I was doing a lot of my healing work from sexual trauma is like, who am I if I don't have this? Because we so identify with the pain that I, this is me, the one who had experienced or experiences this thing. And it becomes such a woven part of how we think of ourselves that if you don't have that anymore, then who's here? Like, who am I really? Do you ever get that moment where they're wrestling with really receiving what they most desire, but they're afraid to because they're not know who they're going to be at the end.

Dan Powers | SxR Guest Sexpert: 34:17

Not so much for me because. I'm a completely different being than their partners are if they're in a partner because they've got so much baggage with their partner. And because I'm the expert, I'm the pro. I'm coming in and talking to them about what's going on. I'm educating them about what it is that they should be able to expect and feel. And when I take the baby steps to get them there, it really opens them up to it. One of the things I'm starting to do more recently now is work with women and their husbands where I will work with a woman to show her, okay, here's what you can expect. And then I start, I bring the guy in and I say, I start teaching him how to approach his partner in a way that is like I am. So there's an attunement that's going on, where they're starting to feel that pleasure from their partner. Again, taking those baby steps to get them from, know this I identify with this pain to wow, I can now identify with this pleasure

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 35:18

So that kind of leads me to this question that we'd like to ask, which is, well, and I'll ask it to each of you, is like, how have we been, like, as a society and as a whole, as a collective, how have we been in service versus the opposite, going against supporting people to live lives of pleasure and outside of shame.

Elizabeth Wood | SxR Guest Sexpert: 35:49

So I would answer that in terms of, it's we really need to, or there's so much of a focus on taking care of the other.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 36:02

Right.

Elizabeth Wood | SxR Guest Sexpert: 36:03

The selflessness is that we need to focus on our own pleasure as concept in general. A lot of people, you know, guilty pleasures. I'm sorry, I'm here to like eradicate the word guilty before the word pleasures. You know, even you deserve pleasure. No, pleasure is the lived experience of all of the pleasant senses that surround us. So I think in this fast paced society and culture, this culture in general, we see things backward because like, in the airplane, when the oxygen mask drops down, you are supposed to put yours on first to better serve the those around you. In my opinion, it's the same way with pleasure. I mean, pleasure for me, and it's really difficult to say this in a post covid world, but we need to spread pleasure as if it were contagious. And I couldn't that in the book because we were writing it during Covid.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 37:14

During covid.

Elizabeth Wood | SxR Guest Sexpert: 37:15

But it's contagious.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 37:17

It is.

Elizabeth Wood | SxR Guest Sexpert: 37:18

like, well, it's an energy we know. I mean, we've been in fabulous energy classes together with Leah, and we know about energy. I mean, if there is a in the room, people are going to start to attune to that.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 37:35

Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Wood | SxR Guest Sexpert: 37:36

but when there's joy, what you look to me for and well, cause I was wondering if you were going to go like this too, but if there's a pleasure and at people are going to attune to the energy that we're then exuding from a more positive perspective. And so from society looks at certain things as they're being selfish. You know, versus, no it's a selfless measure. I actually think it's we wrote about it in the book. It's a revolutionary act to take pleasure for pleasure's sake into your body because it's not selfish at all. It's a beautiful, loving act. And the kindest gift and the most gracious gift you can give yourself, because from that perspective, you can then, as I say, share it with others. And Dan might have a different perspective on that.

Dan Powers | SxR Guest Sexpert: 38:32

No I would say spot on. And I think it's also a precious gift for the Giver because I've worked with clients who laid there and didn't feel or act like they had any kind of pleasure at all. And it was really difficult. Like, am I doing something wrong? What's going on? And I don't want to push her too far or anything else. And, you know, I'd say later it's like, wow, sorry this didn't, didn't look like it was really good for And she's like, oh no, that was really great. I had 10 orgasms. Oh, okay. Teach your face a little bit about that.

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 39:12

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 39:16

The, I think the expression of pleasure is so, I think that's one of the biggest pieces around, you know, the shame and the guilt is like, if I'm expressing my pleasure, first of all, I might be triggering other people. Right? I might

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 39:32

I'll be judged.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 39:33

be judged.

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 39:33

Yeah.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 39:34

Even be criticized. There's a lot of, I think, fear that comes with actually expressing our full selves, our full, authentic joy and pleasure and it.

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 39:45

something like laughing, you know? Oh, you don't want to be the person that laughs too

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 39:48

So

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 39:48

too

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 39:49

louder.

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 39:49

you know?

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 39:50

exactly. I

Dan Powers | SxR Guest Sexpert: 39:51

I've been there with.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 39:52

have a

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 39:53

Oh, I know. I don't have that problem at all.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 39:57

Well, and that too, laughter is probably one of the best medicines out there. I mean, laughter, sex, and sleep. What else do we need? Really,

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 40:04

Pooping. I have to say, there's a lot of pleasure in pooping.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 40:08

Well, I'm so glad you're bringing up pooping because that I feel like is a, now elizabeth you're probably going to agree with me. That feels like a place where you can bridge the gap.

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 40:17

Let go.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 40:18

I just had pleasure being in a hot

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 40:20

Yeah.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 40:20

It tub versus I had pleasure near my genitalia. does, it feels so good when you poop and pee.

Elizabeth Wood | SxR Guest Sexpert: 40:27

and nobody really ever talks about it. We did a, it was called, it was another podcast, and they talked about the elephant in the room, and they knew that we're sex educators and we work together. And I was like, oh, come on, pooping feels good. And the guy's like, oh, we're going to go there. And I said, it does, it feels good because it's a release. And you know, like I don't know what else we talked about but he said, I said to him, in the broadcast, are you going to like edit this out? And he's like, it's in there. He's like, because I feel the truth myself, you know? And so, yeah, I mean, I don't sing about it every time I come out of the bathroom, but, you know, let's stop, making, let's stop. I don't know.

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 41:12

Let's stop being embarrassed. Let's stop being ashamed that we have bowel movements.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 41:17

Yes, it's a bodily function. I mean, things feel, we have these senses in our body. We have these structures in our body. We have these structures in our brains for a reason so that we can actually enjoy this vehicle that we're walking around in. If we get a really nice brand new car, are we supposed to just be like, not enjoying the pleasure of that car? No. We have these bodies. It's the same. And when we take good care of them and you know, they feel good. Like, feel it, feel it, that is yeah. We years to your life. To unabashedly feel your pleasure. We

Dan Powers | SxR Guest Sexpert: 41:50

must be old now cause we're talking about bowel movements.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 41:55

It's not

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 41:55

I'm ready to a tangent them.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 41:56

Is the first time we've talked about bowel movements in a podcast or summit. It's, you know from a Chinese medicine perspective, we want to know about everything. What's going on.

Elizabeth Wood | SxR Guest Sexpert: 42:05

Yes.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 42:05

How are your bowel, what is your blood color? Well, and you know, we want to know about those things.

Elizabeth Wood | SxR Guest Sexpert: 42:11

Also from a pelvic floor perspective, that's one of the things that we ask on our assessment. Like how are your poops and you know, you get that same look that you do, you know, like, what does it have to do? Well, let me tell you, if you're constipated, if you have constant constipation, you're going to have a very, very tight pelvic floor. And then if the opposite happens and you use the toilet for number two, for pooping on a very, very frequent basis, ooh, your bottom the, your anus is probably going to feel pretty sore. And again, like, then you won't want adventure there for pleasurable reasons. So it is definitely and how many times do you pee? Frequency, urgency, all of those things actually have 100% to do with the health of the pelvic floor. And, you know, let's not be embarrassed about it. Let's, we have to ask the questions. We do ask the questions because we need to know about them from a health perspective.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 43:14

Mm-hmm.

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 43:14

Yeah, I mean, I think what's so interesting about sex and sexuality and sensuality is that all, everything can come back to that. Like there is, it's a full circle and you were just, you started out talking about sort of the process that you use, Elizabeth, and that you're not even introducing, you know, sex or sexuality or orgasm as you start to guide someone who has had mostly pain, if not only pain. So what's the journey like where, what's the end point? At what point do you introduce words like arousal and whatnot, an orgasm?

Elizabeth Wood | SxR Guest Sexpert: 43:49

So it's part of the teaching because the, so if I divide because we have a method to the 23 prescriptions, I'm basing that off of this. So the first set of prescriptions is so that the reader can learn about the anatomy of pain. And then from there you know, to understand what's causing their pain, we list all of the medical diagnoses empowering that particular client or reader to advocate for themselves. When they go and see the medical practitioner. Remember typically these people see three to four docs before getting a diagnosis. And so if we can arm them with a terminology and where does it hurt? How does it hurt, what does it feel like shards of glass burning? We, empower them to then take that to their practitioner. Because first of all, with these pain clients, we absolutely have to diminish pain because if pain's in the room, there's not a whole lot. Chronic pain is in the room, there's almost no room for pleasure. So once we kind of lower the temperature on that, then we introduce just basic educational from an educator an educational perspective. The anatomy. What is actually where? What is the vulva? Where is the vagina? What, how do the two terms different? Very basic, the ABCs of S E X. And then from there again, our baby steps are how would we fully clothe start to feel arousal in our body from essential perspective. So we introduce sensuality and how a person can use finger paints because that's a sense of smell. You two remember that smell of finger paint? Mm-hmm. Hmm. I mean, I still remember it, but then dipping your fingers, the sensation? And it's always cool and it's really thick. Now so we have a lot of tools for introducing them to the world of the senses. And then from there, when they sort of, not when they've sort of, when they have a felt sense of that these are pleasing, then we ask them to move very slowly into exploring, touch in their own body non, from a non genital perspective, baby steps to over the clothes cup your vulva. Mm-hmm. You know, and things like that. So we do move on a very slow, slow basis to essential the essential expression of pleasure. And then solo exercises so that they can begin to map on their bodies what pleasure and where pleasure feels good where pleasure is, and where on their bodies it feels good. And then we slowly introduce them to sexual practices, solo sexual practices. And we use something called Pleasure calibration, where zero is, I ain't feeling nothing yet. And we only actually go up to six. And so we teach them skills to get them. And six is, weeeeee, now here we come, or here I come. So we guide them through the prescriptions more and more intimately into their own bodies. And then as I said, those last prescriptions are how to bring this into the bedroom with a partner beginning at communication agreements. Yes and no. So that's part of the process and that's also part of the process in a different way that Dan uses with the pleasure engineering. Because we got to figure out what each unique body and which each couple, how they're going to engineer their, or design their pleasure for their own unique tastes, erotic types.

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 47:55

Yeah,

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 47:56

Blueprints. Yeah,

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 47:57

pleasure engineering. I'm digging these words.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 48:00

I forgot about,

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 48:01

So clever.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 48:03

I forgot. Dan is an engineer by trade. So tell

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 48:08

take it from there, Dan?

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 48:09

Yeah. Pleasure.

Dan Powers | SxR Guest Sexpert: 48:11

From a software

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 48:12

Nice set up, Elizabeth.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 48:13

Yeah, well done.

Dan Powers | SxR Guest Sexpert: 48:14

I love that.

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 48:15

Yep.

Dan Powers | SxR Guest Sexpert: 48:16

Yeah. When I start working with a woman, every woman is different. And so there's not just one set plan that you can go at. And this is one of the things that I teach them and I teach their partners as well. Even from day to day, your partner changes. So always be exploring what's going on and try to figure out what's there. There's going to be, some themes that really they appreciate more, which is one of the things that's really nice about the Erotic Blueprints, because it helps them to have that kind of communication. And we can talk about that a little bit too. But in this entire process where I'm working with a woman is the first. Session that I have with them is where it's a hands-on session is a pleasure, calibration. So how am I feeling? Or how is she feeling? What's going on in her body? And then how do I start to understand who she is as an erotic being, and then where can I start going from there? And then teaching her what she may not even know. Most women that come to me, they've never been touched the way that I'm touching them when they're on my table. And so I'm teaching them what actually is pleasurable. You know, one of my trainings that I've done, they talked about, it's like, oh no, you need to do a bossy massage and let them figure it out. Like, no, these women would just be laying on the table doing nothing.

Elizabeth Wood | SxR Guest Sexpert: 49:32

So we have provide a menu, so that you can choose from, yeah. they're like deer in a headlights. Yeah. You know, so it's like, oh, oh, oh. You know?

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 49:42

And it actually Yeah. works well for women's brains to give them a little menu. Like, do you like, A, B C, or D?

Dan Powers | SxR Guest Sexpert: 49:49

We do less options than that.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 49:52

Because I feel like, yeah. I feel like women are always having to, think about things and figure things out, you know, well, how am I going to get the kids? And the thing and the to-do list is always

Dan Powers | SxR Guest Sexpert: 50:01

And we don't want them in their heads. We want them to be able yes or no. that's why it's like A or B. A or b. One or

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 50:08

Yeah. And when you, when sexuality and things of sensuality in nature, people aren't accustomed to speaking about it. It's hard to articulate what you're feeling. And so to have someone give you some examples, you start to build your own language to what you're feeling inside. And that's a learned skill.

Dan Powers | SxR Guest Sexpert: 50:26

It's even harder to ask for what you want.

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 50:29

Only totally.

Dan Powers | SxR Guest Sexpert: 50:30

Thing,

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 50:31

oh,

Dan Powers | SxR Guest Sexpert: 50:31

like, oh, I want you to

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 50:32

I'm still working on it.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 50:33

Oh yeah. Oh Yeah. It's an ongoing process.

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 50:37

Yeah. It is. It is.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 50:39

So I'm so curious about, like, I'm wondering what percentage or how you guys share clientele. How does that work? Is it just very natural and organic? Like somebody comes to see Dan and then, oh, you should see Elizabeth or Elizabeth sees someone and says, oh, you need Dan's work too.

Elizabeth Wood | SxR Guest Sexpert: 50:57

Well, actually the last shared client that we have, first of all, we love working with clients together. But the last shared client came to work specifically with Dan. And when Dan was taking her history, the word pain, pain, pain, and a long history of it. And so, Dan suggested that she reach out to me in order to learn more about that anatomy of pain. Quiet down the pain, so that when his work with her, it was more from, you know, really doing that pleasure engineering. The pain had been diminished. It's not that Dan can't do that. Because we, all know how to down-regulate a body, but it's what the woman can do. What the, vulva because again, all the, all of these words, but what that client can do for themselves in order to, on an ongoing basis, live in a body where they experienced less pain. So I worked with her. We really downregulated that system so that her pleasure ceiling was a blue. So her pleasure of ceiling wasn't okay. This is what I, this is the only range in which I can experience pleasure. Well, if we down-regulate the system, we have a much greater range where pleasure can be explored. What this woman learned was her tools that she can use, prescriptions stay on brand, Elizabeth, prescriptions that she can use to then dance and play within this wider range. So when the work the pleasure engineering, those sessions begin with Dan. There's more room for her explore and experiment. So that's how we work together.

Dan Powers | SxR Guest Sexpert: 52:56

And it depends on the woman too in this case, particularly as a woman, because for me to just go in with her, she's never been with anybody else other than her husband. So let's introduce Elizabeth. Take that baby step there so that she can actually feel that she can have some pleasure. She's never had any pleasure with her husband. It was strictly a service that she provided for her husband to have babies. And once they had babies, she was not interested in sex at all. So working with Elizabeth, she started to realize, oh, I actually can have pleasure now we've introduced me. It's like, okay, now can a man actually be a part of that as well? And this is obviously speaking in a strictly hetero heterosexual dynamic in this case. But you know, then we start building up that, and then, there'll be occasions where, hey, it would be optimum to bring Elizabeth in or bring the two of us in together at the same time.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 53:52

Mm-hmm.

Dan Powers | SxR Guest Sexpert: 53:53

And so that's how we work.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 53:55

So powerful. Such an incredible service too. Vulva owners everywhere. with And I'm wondering that, what about if a man is coming in and he's like, I haven't experienced pleasure, or I have pre prism, or

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 54:08

Right. Or I have pelvic floor pain.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 54:10

pelvic floor pain, or, know,

Elizabeth Wood | SxR Guest Sexpert: 54:13

So for me because I'm not a pelvic floor physical therapist, my first go-to would be to refer that patient out to someone who can really work with that clients, with the male, work with their body to help alleviate that pain first and foremost. And then they can come back and, you know, they work intra anally beautifully to alleviate all that muscle tension. Or there's, I would never do anything like this myself because I'm not trained. But sometimes that tailbone is misaligned out of alignment, that causes such severe pain that if I came in and worked with that client with regard to increasing the height his pleasure ceiling, that underlying pain is still there. So I would refer out to you know, my repertoire of highly skilled pelvic floor physical therapist, and then come back to me once that pain is diminished and decreased. Come on back and then we can work with the pleasure exercises.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 55:23

Mm-hmm. You

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 55:24

know Dan, you mentioned that a lot of clients you see have, there's a theme of religious indoctrination that's led to a lot of sexual shame. Elizabeth, do you find, is there a common thread with many people who are experiencing pelvic floor pain or vulva pain or vaginal pain, is is there a high percentage of people who had sexual trauma? I'm just kind curious if you found any threads that are relatable.

Elizabeth Wood | SxR Guest Sexpert: 55:51

So, there's provoked so meaning if I poke that bear, that person is going to experience pain. And then there's chronic. And so both are pain diagnoses and they can arise from and quite often arise from a traumatic experience that they've had. So, if it hurt, hurt the first time they put a tampon in. And then they weren't supposed to they took their older sisters for some bizarre reason. Their mom didn't want them to start using tampons until they were 13, I don't know, whatever it was

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 56:31

Right, right.

Elizabeth Wood | SxR Guest Sexpert: 56:32

caught using a tampon. It was painful and then they were caught using that tampon. You know, like, then there's that overlying sense of they did something wrong. So there comes the shame. So it's first the physical trauma and then the embarrassment or the shame that comes on further compounding that into an emotionally shameful experience. But trauma, I mean, the body keeps the score, I mean, a beautiful and fantastic and so readable book by Basil Vanderkolk. The Body Keeps the Score. So when you're in pain, there's a reflex of sensation and that reflex of sensation. Think of if you grew up with an older or even a younger brother, who every time he you walked in the room, he punched you in the stomach. You better believe that every time you walked in the room and you knew your brother was present, you'd be clenching and you'd be gripping against the anticipated pain. the same thing with the with the vagina. know, we reflexively, it says it's reflexive. Splinting is what it's called. There's nothing that can get in here.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 57:42

Yeah. Not

Elizabeth Wood | SxR Guest Sexpert: 57:43

even a fettuccini noodle.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 57:44

It's a great analogy

Dan Powers | SxR Guest Sexpert: 57:47

Yes.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 57:47

it really exemplifies how it's a downward spiral, right? It's like you're going into a situation already anticipating pain. Your body's responding to that. You're closed down. There's no, there's very little room to experience any pleasure when you're stepping

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 58:05

Well, especially when so much pleasure is like connected to anticipation, it's like, ooh, something good's going to happen. You get the and if your experience of anticipation is one of gripping and flinching and like preparing to freeze. Yeah. No wonder I'm so glad that you're using the senses then to help repair, especially the beauty of anticipation where you're going to anticipate that yummy bite of ice cream.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 58:34

It's really about building new neuro networks throughout your whole body, not just in yes. your brain, but also all the way down into your genitals in your gut. The gut response, the heart, you know, every brain in your body has, um, neuro pathways. And I think, Yeah. a use what you guys are talking about, using your senses and using sensuality and using different avenues of pleasure helps to rewire the entire system.

Elizabeth Wood | SxR Guest Sexpert: 59:02

The tantra perspective, even breath. Because, an open mouth, exhale, there are certain orifices there are muscle structures, round muscle structures in our ears, our eyes, our nose, our mouths and in our vaginas and anuses. So in an open mouth breath, you're relaxing an orifice. All the others respond in kind. So back to poop, if you're having a tough poop, make sure you have an open mouth.

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 59:32

Open mouth. Uh,

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 59:33

Ah. ah,

Elizabeth Wood | SxR Guest Sexpert: 59:34

Because is relaxes all the other orifices. And if we see that brother who's going to punch us, we hold our breath.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 59:44

Uh, Yeah. we're tight. Our jaws clench. Oh, that's a question I

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 59:47

We grip.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 59:47

Elizabeth, is, what have you seen in your research or, in your studies for your book like, what's the percentage of women with hypertonic pelvic floors and who, grind their teeth or clench their teeth at night?

Elizabeth Wood | SxR Guest Sexpert: 1:00:03

So we did, I know that there are studies out there. There is a direct correlation because you I mean, it's about the clenching. So it's, I was going to it's a response that if you clench and we're place you're, I mean, you just kind of that this is not isolated. You cannot isolate, let's see, Illinois, the state of Illinois from the United States, you just can't, so you'll never be able to isolate the mouth and the jaw from the rest of the body. So there are responses to clenching, to open mouth, to a relaxed body. It's kind of hard to have a relaxed body tense shoulders, if you're in a relaxed body, you're relaxed throughout your body. So we did not look into that for research, but it's, I mean, it's sort of a known thing.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 1:00:59

Yeah. I always like to say if you fold the body in half the pelvic bowl the vagina is a mirror image of this, um, structure, the jaw structure. And in Spanish the word for throat is cuello. And the word for cervix is cuello. So there's this really strong correlation between the mouth and the yoni, Right? There's the lips, there's the opening,

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 1:01:26

Right.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 1:01:27

And um, as

Dan Powers | SxR Guest Sexpert: 1:01:28

where's teeth?

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 1:01:29

a Cranial sacral, what's that? And the teeth.\, What about the teeth? Yeah, I'm sure. theTeeth? You know, it doesn't all translate Dan.

Dan Powers | SxR Guest Sexpert: 1:01:36

Oh.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 1:01:39

But it's interesting that you mentioned the teeth because as a cranial sacral therapist and doing, um, oral, you know, going inside the mouth and readjusting the teeth has been part of, um, my work with working with pelvic floor people with hypertonic pelvic floors as well. And there is something we, you know, in Chinese medicine we hold, the teeth, the kidneys. The kidneys, and the um, holds the bones. So the teeth and all these extra organs in your body, the brain and the uterus. And, they're all tied together. And, then we think about the kidneys as like, it's where all of your sexual energy is stored. So it's the essence of who you are. So anyway, it's just all correlated and tied together. I think it's fascinating.

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 1:02:24

It It is

Elizabeth Wood | SxR Guest Sexpert: 1:02:24

fascinating. Oh. Dan donated a kidney.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 1:02:28

Well, that's okay. He still has one. That's all you need. That's all you need.

Elizabeth Wood | SxR Guest Sexpert: 1:02:32

Operating at 100%.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 1:02:33

Obviously he has very good,

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 1:02:35

Yes. He's, he doesn't seem to be lacking of

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 1:02:40

uh, no. I'm

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 1:02:42

energy.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 1:02:43

is a little off topic, but why not? Let's throw it in there. Have you guys ever had any issues in your work? I mean, you're doing relationship intimacy, surrogacy with others, have things come up where you guys have needed therapy between you as

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 1:02:58

people. The two of you? Oh, that's a good question.

Dan Powers | SxR Guest Sexpert: 1:03:00

Oh, no, we're perfect.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 1:03:02

perfect aren't you? Yeah. If you're watching this, you should see Elizabeth's face right now.

Elizabeth Wood | SxR Guest Sexpert: 1:03:07

Oh, yeah. I have lots of expressions. So I think, so if we go back to the where we use the most of our individual selves is in the surrogate partner triadic model. And if we ever ran into any difficulties there, both us working as individuals or in our relationship. We actually do have a guidance and assistance offered to us at every step of the game. There was, there is never between the two of us, any sense of jealousy. So I'll speak from my perspective, but when we're working with the surrogate client, these aren't people who we would meet out in the everyday world. You know, back in the day when we could go to bars or festivals, some, you some little, hot to trot babe came up to Dan and was like, that's where jealousy would happen. Or a little bit of maybe envy, but might be where I would be more what's happening. But in the world of surrogate therapy I mean, these clients are, they're the heroes of this story. They are courageous, they are bold. They are going after what they want, and they aren't people that we would be dating in the outside world. Because, of their lack of skills and their lack of the ability to engage in healthy relationship. That's why they're here. So it's never actually happened in for me in the world, in the realm of surrogate partner therapy. However for me, when I hear of some of the great success that, that Dan's clients are experiencing and mama ain't got nothing lately, there's slightly a little bit of longing and you know, that feeling of I'm here. I'm going to be absolutely straight up and say that there is some of that longing and desire to experience that in a non transactional manner which is the way that, that the Dan's clients are receiving his attention.

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 1:05:28

Thanks for being so transparent about that. And that's awesome. I think that really helps normalize because I think a lot of people look at experts and they have this imagination goes wild and they think, oh, they would never have that problem.

Dan Powers | SxR Guest Sexpert: 1:05:41

What I add to all of that is we actually do see therapists from time to time. We go through our own emotional issues. You know, we're stuck in the weeds. And this is one of the real benefits of having that therapist that's working in the traumatic model in the surrogate partner realm is because we get caught up in the emotional weeds of the relationship with our client. And then we can go to the therapist and say, wow I'm really starting to fall in love with this client. And or, you know, there's something that's going on and, or they can just point it outs like, oh, well, did you know that your client is doing X, Y, Z? And it's like, oh, no, I didn't know that. So we can talk about it. Same thing for us. You know, we're mixed up in the weeds of our relationship with doing our taxes, dealing with things that have to happen. And, you know, as Esther Perel says, intimacy kills eroticism. And so we've got to work constantly at figuring out what our own eroticism is and how that works and how we get it ourselves. And so we've got friends that we can talk to who are in this tradition, therapists and we do see them.

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 1:06:53

Yeah. So I understand you have a free gift for our listeners, would you say would you describe to us what they, what goodies they can expect?

Dan Powers | SxR Guest Sexpert: 1:07:03

Yeah. So for me I've got Five Tips for Pleasuring a Woman, It comes from my experience with working with women and where I'm actually morphing my business to actually start working with men more and teaching them the skills that these women are clamoring for. I can't tell you how many women have said, at the end of our sessions, it's like, I need you to teach my boyfriend, husband, future partner what it is that you do and how you do that. And I was like, great. So this paper I have got five tips that are on it that describe what it is that I think you should do. Like, asking her what she wants you know, real simple kind of thing you would think, but a lot of men don't because they think that they have to know everything that there is. But education is so important. So people who are actually here, you're on the right step because being educated about what your partner is, how you are around sexuality is just huge. And so, yeah, it's a, you can read the rest of the tips.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 1:08:07

Mm.

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 1:08:08

Thank you for that.

Elizabeth Wood | SxR Guest Sexpert: 1:08:09

And so, it's a free gift that I am offering, there are five exercises for, they were developed by my business partner, Dee Hartman. And it's five exercises to decrease pain prior to any type of Penetration. So these are five exercises that are for the person to use at home that, you know, one's a hip stretch, one's like a bridge, another is a breathing exercise to help the pelvic floor release tension. So that even the speculum at a gynecologist's office a tampon, a toy, a finger a cock, anything these five exercises can be done and it will diminish the experience of pain prior to and that form of penetration. So those will go in there. It's a catchy title. You know, Five Tips for Decreasing Pain, whatever.

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 1:09:09

Well, they're, everyone's so lucky because they're getting two gifts in one interview. How generous. We love it.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 1:09:16

I know. Thanks you guys. That's

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 1:09:18

Yeah. Thank you so much for being here and just love you. You brought so much to the table. Thank you

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 1:09:23

Hmm. so much. Such a

Elizabeth Wood | SxR Guest Sexpert: 1:09:25

pleasure. Dr. Willow, it's so nice meeting you. I've heard about you for such a long time. And you know, any dear friend of Leah's I'm bound to like you and I already know I do. So,

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 1:09:35

Yeah, i got to

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 1:09:36

mm-hmm.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 1:09:37

have more conversations with Elizabeth and stuff to wrap on.

Elizabeth Wood | SxR Guest Sexpert: 1:09:42

Leah, always a pleasure being with you, whether in person or online. You're a gem to this, to us all, to this community, to this field and and to us all. And I, I love you.

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 1:09:57

I love you too. Thank you. All right, well, we're going to sign off so everybody love, love, love, love.

1:10:04

Now, our favorite part, the dish.

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 1:10:08

Dish it up, my friend.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 1:10:09

So I just want to hang out with Dan and Elizabeth, like I want to go spend a weekend with them in Napa and drink wine and talk to them and hang out and like walk around and just hang out with them. They're so cool.

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 1:10:22

They're the best. I remember meeting Dan and his first wife or maybe it was his second wife, but the first wife I met that was Dan's. Gosh, it's got to be like 15 18 years ago. And then him and that partner broke up and then Elizabeth came along and I fell immediately in love with her. She's so open and curious and warm and just like available. She hops right in with you and and uh And they're both just so smart. And, um, it's fun to meet cool couples who are doing cool things.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 1:10:57

Yeah. I mean, and their, their relationship is so unique and, you know, they're so open about it the way that they talk about, you know, I loved when I was like, so do you guys ever get into issues with the work that you're doing? And

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 1:11:10

The jealousy of, with the whole partner therapy stuff.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 1:11:13

I

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 1:11:14

Yeah. The partner surrogacy, like, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 1:11:18

Yeah. Elizabeth was so forthcoming. She's like, I don't really get jealous. I just, I have my own longing around, you know, being satisfied and being

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 1:11:27

right. If I feel a little neglected is when I, I, yes, the,

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 1:11:31

Yeah.

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 1:11:31

the rub happens.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 1:11:32

I think partner surrogacy, for some reason to me, it's so intriguing. I think because I think I would be really good at it. I don't know if it's a path I'll ever actually go down, but, It intrigues me because I could see myself doing it really well. And according to Dan, in our first interview with him, he, uh, there's a lot more women doing this work than men. So I think what a huge service he's providing. And the fact that Elizabeth did it for years, and then, did they meet in that training,

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 1:12:03

No, no, I think they did the training together and I think she only did it for like a year or two She didn't do it for a super long

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 1:12:09

Yeah. I could see, I could see it also being kind of like a lot emotionally. I don't know if I could hold down a relationship and do that too. I feel like if I was going to just do that, it would be just in service of that. Like basically doula ing people into what it means to be in an intimate relationship. And doula work in my day. I just don't know if I want to do that on the longterm.

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 1:12:33

well, I think it's an You have to have, um, a couple good skills, which is like when I think about the Reiki and pattern type, like who do I think would be really good at that was probably more of a, of the rigid pattern type. I don't mean that to sound judgmental. It's just they're good at compartmentalizing. You have to have a good compartmentalizing skill set to be able to put things emotionally appropriate and it's perspective, you know, and it's boxes because I think for me, who's a merger, it can get really, it could get a little emotionally confusing. And because there's such a, you're in the moment and you want someone to feel so comfortable and so at ease. And so it, you kind of leave, it could be a little nebulous if you're not really intentional. And then What happens with me is when I'm really intentional about, there's a part of me that's holding back and I'm not all in. And so I think at this point in my life, I would be a skilled, um, uh, partnered surrogate, but it's only at this point in my life. I think any other time prior, it might have been a little energetically and emotionally confusing, not totally for me, but maybe for the other person. Okay, so I just think you have to have a high level of handling that stuff well.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 1:13:48

That's interesting. And Dan's an engineer, so he's got that kind of like more compartmentalizing,

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 1:13:53

he's like a rigid rigid.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 1:13:55

Yeah, he's like, he's like, this is this client, that's that client, and this is my wife, and this is me, and this, you know, he's got it, got that covered. So that's really great. Yeah, I mean, And also just Elizabeth's work with, um, with her partner. I can't remember who she wrote the book with, but the pleasure prescription D. Yes. I mean, as a pelvic floor therapist myself for however many years now, I've just, I love wrapping with other, um, therapists and she, she doesn't claim to, to be that or do that work or whatever. But,

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 1:14:31

she's the therapeutic side of the

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 1:14:33

Yeah. She brings the pleasure part of the prescription forward. Whereas D brings the healing part of the prescription forward.

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 1:14:41

I feel like what they're doing is a, is a prayer, is, is an, is an answer. What's it, what, how do I say this? It's a prayer answered is really what I think their work is. There's so many women who I've encountered in my work who have so much pelvic floor pain And although I could help a little bit, I, I didn't have the skill or the knowledge to get them to where they really want to be. So sitting down with Elizabeth and hearing more about where you start and not creating big expectations and slowing everything down and bringing awareness to all the senses and finding pleasure in all these other sectors of life is a part of the process to get to the more central pleasure of what can happen through sexuality. And also expanding what we think is sexuality so that you're not limited to this thing called sex, but that it's a, um, it's a thing that you would need to integrate. And when all you do is feel the pain or you're living the story of the pain, how impossible or, or how maybe that skipped over you at some point. I mean, I just, I feel like it's such an important topic and I can't wait to dive deeper.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 1:15:55

Yeah.

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 1:15:55

I'd love to have her and Dee on the show and really dig into this so that people feel like there's hope.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 1:16:02

absolutely. Cause there is hope. I mean, I have seen women go through major massive metamorphosis with their pelvic floor pain and really get to the place where they are. Just can't wait to have sex. Free. Yeah. It's so possible. I mean the vaginal tissue, it's like, I used to do cranial, well sometimes I still do cranial on babies, you know, and cranial sacral is this very, very slow tissue work and it's like you're working at bone marrow level so things are very deep and very slow and um, and when you're doing cranial on babies, They are so malleable. They don't have these like ideas in their head of like, what the hell is this person doing? Holding my head for 20 minutes. You know, they don't, and so their little structures, their little bones and, and their little structures just shift and change so quickly. It's just like, like butter in your hands as a therapist. And the pelvic floor is the same. When you go in there and you really like, Just be with the tissue of, like, be with those pain points inside of the vaginal canal. It melts so quickly. It's like, it's like working on infants. That's been my experience.

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 1:17:18

I dig it. That's beautiful. Well, that gives us a lot to, um, be hopeful for. So, yeah, keep fighting the good fight, y'all. There is pleasure yet to be had and to be experienced and to be explored. And, um, it's just waiting for you to show up. So get out there and go grab it. You know what I'm going to do for pleasure today? Well, you know what I already did for pleasure day? I had, I ate the biggest pineapple I have ever seen. No, not pineapple, a papaya. It was a giant ass papaya. I mean, I couldn't finish it in one setting. I started it last night and I finished it this morning and it was from my friend's garden and it was like, wow, that was some pleasure. It was so, and I have, my, my friend had some, um, key lime juice. Oh, key limes. Okay.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 1:18:05

lime on your papaya in Maui. Good morning. Good morning, Leah.

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 1:18:10

good morning, aloha, and good night, because I had it last time, went, went to bed with the papaya, and then I woke up with the papaya.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 1:18:17

is actually really good for, uh, well the enzymes are good for your digestion, but I believe also

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 1:18:22

and your skin.

Dr. Willow | SxR co-host: 1:18:23

for your yoni. Your uterus. I think it's the same shape as the uterus.

Leah Piper | SxR co-host: 1:18:31

Mm hmm, indeed. And yes, that's all I have to say about papaya right now. So I hope you eat some delicious, refreshing fruit of your choice today, and we love you, love you, love you a long time. Catch you later.

Speaker 3: 1:18:47

Thanks for tuning in. This episode was hosted by Tantric Sex Master Coach and Positive Psychology Facilitator, Leah Piper, as well as by Chinese and Functional Medicine Doctor and Taoist Sexology Teacher, Dr. Willow Brown. Don't forget, your comments, likes, subscribes, and suggestions matter. Let's realize this new world together.