Stefani Goerich: Minding the Pleasure Gap: Bridging Kinky & Vanilla Sex

Stefani Goerlich, professor, author of “Sprinkles,” & a sex therapist, discusses her journey into the field of sexuality, working with students & patients. In this conversation, Stefani Goerlich discusses that while kink & BDSM have become more mainstream in recent years, many "vanilla" people still find the concept off-putting or disturbing. However, consensual exploration of power dynamics & erotic psychology can profoundly deepen intimate connections in relationships. She shares a powerful story of helping a couple navigate the difference between consensual kink & abuse. 

TAKEAWAYS

• Understanding what is normal and healthy in relationships requires unlearning societal biases.
• Consensual kink and BDSM can be misunderstood and stigmatized, but it is important to differentiate between consensual kink and abuse.
• Maintaining boundaries as a sex therapist is crucial to ensure the therapeutic relationship is not influenced by personal experiences or biases.
• Exploring & striving to understand each person’s erotic identity is important for couples with differing desire levels. 
• When couples want to open their relationship, clarifying their motivations is important. 
• Partners supporting someone with trauma should reframe their role as holding space and providing support.

EPISODE LINKS

• Stefani's Podcast - Securing Sexuality
• Stefani's - Securing Sexuality Conference
• Stefani's - Counseling Services
• Stefani's Book - The Leather Couch
• Stefani's Book - Sprinkles on Top
• Stefani's Book - Kink Affirming Practice
• Download the Duluth Model Wheel of Power and Control

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Chapters

• 1:37 Introduction and Guest Presentation
• 1:45 Introducing Stefani Goerlich
• 2:30 Beginning of the Interview with Stefani Gorelick
• 3:20 Stefani's Journey into Sexuality Business
• 4:52 Stefani's Teaching Experience and Challenges Faced by Students
• 6:03 Understanding 'Normal' in Sexuality and Relationships
• 10:08 The Importance of Boundaries and Understanding Personal Limits
• 12:59 Stefani's Specialization in Kink and BDSM
• 20:32 The Thin Line Between Consensual Kink and Abuse
• 27:20 Personal Preferences and Boundaries in Kink
• 32:14 Exploring the Power of Words in Intimate Relationships
• 32:56 Understanding the Psychological Impact of Name Calling
• 34:44 Introducing 'Sprinkles': A Guide for Kink and Vanilla Partners
• 37:07 The Importance of Focusing on the 'Vanilla' Person in a Relationship
• 38:56 Addressing the Challenges of Mixed Desire Couples
• 41:11 The Role of a Kink-Affirming Sex Therapist in Relationship Dynamics
• 42:17 Exploring the Book 'Sprinkles' and Its Availability
• 42:46 Discussing the Scope of Stefani's Work and Expertise
• 45:02 Navigating Relationship Changes: From Monogamy to Non-Monogamy
• 50:16 Closing Thoughts and Contact Information
• 51:32 The Dish with Leah & Dr. Willow
• 54:46 The Importance of Perspective in Relationship Dynamics

Transcript

Leah: 1:37

It's your co host Leah Piper for the Sex Reimagined Podcast and I am with the beautiful,

Willow: 1:42

Dr. Willow Brown here as your Taoist expert. And today we interviewed Stefani Gorelick, who is a clinical social worker, certified sex therapist, and board certified clinical sexologist. She is so much fun to listen to and to talk to. She's got three books out, two more coming out next year. She describes herself as an expert on the edges. So her real big speciality is is helping couples who one of them is Kink, and the other is a little more vanilla.

Leah: 2:15

yeah so, you know what to do friends, tune in, turn on, and fall in love with Stefani.

Announcer: 2:22

Welcome to the Sex Reimagined Podcast, where sex is shame free and pleasure forward. Let's get into the show.

Willow: 2:31

Alright, alright, we are here today with Stefani Gorlick, and we're so excited about what we get to drop in with you today about Stefani. Stefani just finished an incredible book that is going to be available to be in your hands very, very soon, if not already. And, um, It's all about how communicate with your partner if they're a kinky type and you're a more vanilla type. So this is going to be a fun conversation. Stefani has many, many years of, um, of and I think she's written three books. Is this your third book? Right? Yeah. one's more for the lay people, but she's a scholarly one, Stefani is. So we're,

leah | interview | Stefani: 3:13

We have an academic. Yes. WelcomeStefaniie.

stefani | interview: 3:17

Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

leah | interview | Stefani: 3:21

So, how did you get into the sexuality business? What were some of those first steps that had you going, I think I want to go in this direction career wise?

stefani | interview: 3:31

You know, I spent the first probably 15 years of my career working with survivors of domestic and sexual violence. So it has always been a part of my work. But about six, seven years ago now, I was engaged and I was telling my fiancé this hilarious story. This is a story that happened at work that involved my manager repeatedly pressing our panic button, thinking she was turning on some electric candles. And if you're a social worker, this is hilarious. If you are engaged to one, that's when you go, wait, you have panic buttons? Why do you have panic buttons? And he suggested that maybe after a decade and a half of working with very, you know, more high risk client populations that I might want to think about doing something else. Uh, I wanted to stay in the world of sexual health and wellness though, so I did my post graduate training in sex therapy. And I figured, you know, I would just kind of like flip the coin a little bit. Instead of working with people who had had their bodies or their relationships or their sexuality weaponized against them. I would work with people that were wanting to have, you know, happier, healthier relationships with their bodies, with their partners, with themselves. And that is what I've been doing, uh, for the last seven

Willow: 4:49

Fantastic.

Leah: 4:50

Wow.

Willow: 4:51

So powerful. And you've taught in, um, at universities as well. Tell us a little bit about your journey with that.

Stefani: 4:59

Yeah, I am on the core teaching faculty at the University of Michigan Sexual Health Certificate Program. So any, you know, up and coming future sex therapists, they get me for their sexual dysfunctions and cakes of paraphilias class. I get all of the complicated fun stuff. And then I guest lecture, um, around the country. I, I I teach in various sex therapy training programs, I guest lecture in human sexuality classes, both at the undergrad and graduate level around the country. Um, it's really lovely because I get all of the benefits and fun of having really powerful conversations with students and with young clinicians. None of the paperwork that happens when you're actually, like, tenured faculty. So I get the best of both worlds.

leah | interview | Stefani: 5:48

That's awesome. You know, what are some of the, the biggest challenges that your students face when they're learning about, you know, the, the path of the clinician and some of these things that people struggle with when it comes to their sexuality?

Stefani: 6:04

You know, it sounds almost silly to say, but I think one of the biggest challenges my students, especially those that are, you know, in a clinical space, have is really learning what is normal, what is healthy, what is appropriate in relationships, because there's a difference between, you know, what our family thinks is okay versus what our culture or our religion might have told us is acceptable. Versus what is actually problematic from a mental health perspective. And so for a lot of young clinicians, especially those that are just coming into the world of sex therapy and sexology, it's this unlearning process of, well, that's weird. Why would somebody do that? And learning that weird doesn't necessarily mean problematic, or that different or strange or creative doesn't necessarily mean diagnosable. So kind of helping them. Recalibrate what their understanding of normal spectrums of human sexuality and relationships can be. And then from there, giving them the skills to work with people who might be, you know, a little outside of those margins in one way or another.

Leah: 7:21

Man, I just can see, I mean, how healthy that perspective is when we look at our conditioning, which forms up some of the judgments and the things that we consider weird or, you know, where we have sort of a negative outlook or perspective on other people's desires. And I wish that like that could be more a part of school education where we became aware and more tolerant and sex positive about other people's expression. That what's normal is that we become more, um, accepting of other people's kinks, of other people's desires, of other people's proclivities, of course, as long as it's not harming themselves or others.

Stefani: 8:03

Absolutely. There is an experience that every sex therapist has to go through at least once. Many of us do it at the very start of our training called a sexual attitudes reassessment.

Willow: 8:15

I love love it.

Stefani: 8:17

Yes, and sometimes new students will come in and they'll call it an attitudes readjustment. But we're not, we're not adjusting anything. They're allowed to have whatever attitudes they have and that's fine. Exactly! It is a time, and usually it's a good long period of time, 8, 12, 14, 16 hours, where we sit together as a group. And we learned about different relationship models, different sexual expressions, different erotic desires. And the job is to sit with what that makes you think of, what comes up for you, what makes you excited about maybe working with that population. Or what makes you go, oh, no, I have some strong feelings and I will probably need to refer those folks out. It's a chance of this really intense self reflection, and then conversation with other people that are having the same experience. And I kind of wish that we could take that process into, you know, the normal college experience. I think everybody who goes to a four year university should have to do a SAR, it's called, before they're done. Not to change anybody's minds, but just to give them space to actually think deeply about what they already think and feel and why.

Leah: 9:30

Yeah, I think my girlfriend just went through that. She's in a, um, in a sexologist certification program right now, and one of the things that they were asked to process is, what's the thing that bothers you the most? Here's this wide array of what some people desire and what's the one that triggers you? What's the one that, that if someone were to approach you wanting some form of support, the best decision you could make is to say, I can't help you with that. Let me refer you out. You know, what do you feel like you actually can't support because it is too triggering for you? Um, is that what we're talking about here? Is it, am I along the same lines?

stefani | interview: 10:14

Absolutely. It absolutely is exactly what you're talking about. And a lot of times people feel like, well, if I can't hold space for everybody, then I'm not sex positive or that I'm not a good enough clinician or any number of things that I'm judgy or I'm kink shaming. I hear so many things when I supervise young clinicians. And we all have our limits. So we all have our difficult populations. We all have the issues or topics or behaviors that we just can't feel comfortable with and that's okay. You know, doing good work doesn't mean never having any boundaries for yourself or never having any sort of discomfort. It means being able to navigate those discomforts for yourself in a way that doesn't, you know, shame or, or, or harm the other person. While also saying, this is, I'm not the right person for you and that's okay.

Leah: 11:09

Also would give someone like perspective about their niche. You know, like here's actually where I want to narrow my focus and how I serve others.

Willow: 11:18

Well, I'm curious if you ever have students who are like, Oh, that thing makes me really uncomfortable. Like right off the bat, there's something, you know, maybe kink is one too much for them. They don't want to go down that road, but then they end up being really intrigued by it, by the end of is it a four year journey, this sexology course?

Stefani: 11:38

To be a sex therapist, you have to come in already fully licensed. So it's a postgraduate training. It's about 1 year of classroom instruction. And then if you want to be certified, it's about 2 years of 1 on 1 in group supervision after that. So it's about 3 years all told, but 12 months together in a classroom. And yeah, absolutely. I think kink is one of those topics, although it's become much more mainstream than it was know, 10 years ago. Non monogamy is another one, where I see people coming in with really hard and fast limits. tend to be the things that we the more, you know, difficult or illegal sort of behaviors. Um, and there absolutely are people that come in and say, I don't even want to learn about it. I don't want to think about it. It's disgusting. It's wrong. I want nothing to do with it. And I can respect that. And small number of them by the end can say. I still think it's wrong. I still don't encourage it. But I also understand how those populations need support and how I can work with them to prevent harm and to mitigate harm. And how sometimes being able to hold space for somebody that's really, really difficult even for me personally, can actually be a really powerful way to protect the people around them and to act in alignment with my morals and values. And I love it when I meet those students. I think they're incredibly inspiring.

Willow: 13:00

So tell us a little bit about how you got into, um, kink and BDSM and, and how that became a, a path and interest for you.

Stefani: 13:10

So it comes right back to my first SAR. Because, you know, I'm sitting there in a room full of people that are already fully licensed mental and medical health providers. They have self selected into a sex therapy program. They know that they want to work in the field of human sexuality. They have chosen a School that is known for being progressive and inclusive, you know, it's, it's this continual period of, you know, this group should really get it, right? We're all here because we get it. And we're watching videos of elderly couples who can't have penetrative sex anymore, but they're holding each other, and they're petting, and they're stroking, and they're kissing. And all around me, people are sighing, and it's so romantic, and it's so beautiful, and I hope my partner and I are like that when we are older. And we're watching interviews with people with some, you know, significant disabilities who have sex workers that help them have a thriving and happy, erotic life. And the people around me are saying, It's so brave, it's amazing, I'm so glad that's available to them. And then we get to the 90 minutes we got on BDSM and Kink, and the whole energy changed. And it got very whispery, and it got very giggly, and at one point somebody like made a joke about what we were watching on the screen, and then was like, oh my god, I'm so sorry, I couldn't help it, I couldn't help it. And I looked at her and I said, you absolutely could, because you knew enough to apologize immediately. And for somebody that, you know, was coming out of a decade and a half of survivor advocacy, that didn't sit well with me. I had spent my entire career being in the rooms with people who were, being looked down on, who are getting snide comments. Who are being told that they should have done something different, or dressed somehow differently, or made a better choice, or been a better person, and to have all of that come together in this group of people that we are. I had gone into going, you know, really, these are my people, they get it, we get it, we're all here together. It really kind of set me off, and actually my first book I started writing my week into my first SAR. So, my first book for clinicians, which is called The Leather Couch, Clinical Practice with Kinky Clients, I actually wrote as I was going through my sex therapy training. Oh, was very of you.

Leah: 15:32

That was very, very smart of you.

Stefani: 15:36

out the same year I got my certification. Because even when you're with this group of people who are there because they believe very deeply in people's right to relational happiness and pleasure and bodily autonomy and integrity in their erotic identities, even when you're with that self selected group, there's always going to be people that don't get it. And I wanted to be the person that helped my peers understand people, this population, this community. And so ever since, it's really kind of, it's been my focus of research, of writing, of work, my entire practice. I only see gender, sexuality, and relationship minorities in my practice. It is all I do.

Leah: 16:22

Wow. That's, um, that's quite a journey. And as you've sort of been learning, I mean, I imagine there's got to be a personal side to all this, right? It like goes beyond just serving and supporting and also kind of taking a look at our conditioning and switching our perspectives. What about for you personally, your own personal sexual journey, whether that is something that has expanded you or things that you've had to overcome?

stefani | interview: 16:50

I have an answer I usually give, because very rarely do I get the chance to say I don't want to talk about it. I, I, I will say with, you know, when I specialize in the communities that I specialize in, and when I move in the spaces that I move in, uh, people want to ask about my life, my relationships, my identities. And I have jokingly said for years, one of my heroes is Dr. Ruth. I dedicated The Leather Couch in part to Dr. Ruth. And I always say I follow the Dr. Ruth rule, right? Like, she spent her entire career very happily and enthusiastically and comfortably talking about any and every kind of sex, except for one. The kind that she has. And I think that especially because of the client population that I work with. I have so many clients that are in power exchange relationships, that having really strong boundaries around what I share about my own life is really important. Because in the therapeutic process, there's always a hierarchy and sort of an imbalance of power between the therapist and the client already, right? We're being paid for a service, we're being paid for an expertise. If we work with families or with children, you know, we have the power to call CPS on people. We can dramatically disrupt people's lives. And I take that sort of professional power very seriously. And I don't want to share things that will push my clients in one way or another in how they think about and approach So I don't want a dominant client thinking that they can walk all over me because they read in an interview that I'm submissive. And I don't want a more submissive client thinking that, and often it's unintentional, it's a very subtle thing, but responding to me as if I were their dominant because I am an authority figure in their life as their therapist. So I have found The best way to hold space for my clients so they have authentic relationships with them that aren't influenced by more power dynamics that are already part of the therapeutic relationship is just to not talk about it.

Leah: 18:52

that makes a lot of

Stefani: 18:54

Yeah,

Leah: 18:55

Yeah, I can see how people are, you know, especially impressionable and you want to be mindful and be in integrity with your influence um, and how they're looking towards you for guidance.

Stefani: 19:07

I don't want people, especially my kinky clients, to be looking to me for how to do their relationships. Every, every power exchange relationship is different. Every couple or partner groups negotiation process is different. Their agreements are different. And I can't ever be the one to say, well, you're only doing kink right if you're doing this or your power exchange doesn't look like mine, then clearly you must be doing something wrong. I need to be able to hold space for my clients to bring whatever they have created with their partners to me, and for me to meet them where they are, and in order for that to be effective, what I do in my life and plays no

Leah: 21:00

role. Yeah, I could see how, like, someone might be pretty impressionable, and they're using your life as an example instead of finding the answers inside of them, so that they're curating an authentic expression of what's true them and you're giving them permission for that.

Willow: 21:14

And with kink and BDSM, there's so many different, um, avenues and so many different, I mean, the, the world is your oyster, like you can really get so creative. I mean, I imagine that there are clients bringing things to you that you never thought of before, you know. And, and that really opens up a um, sense of what they're capable of and who they are and what they can create inside of their own sexuality. What are some of the, um, like, could you give us an example, possibly, of like, profound healing that you've seen through, um, through working with kink and BDSM with some of your clients. So

Stefani: 21:57

one of my favorite stories actually feels very counter intuitive. It's actually a story that ends up not being about kink. But I had a couple come to me because they were, as they put it, in a power exchange relationship. He was dominant, she was submissive. And they were really struggling with what that looked like and how that felt for each of them. I don't work with the couples that I see individually. So either I see you as a person, or I see you two together. But when I'm working with a couple, I don't see them individually. And it very quickly became clear that a lot of what they were describing as power exchange, or as dominance and submission, really had many more overtones of abuse than consensual kink. And one day, I slid the, um, old, lovely handout, the Wheel of Power and Control, across the table, and I asked them, you know, do you see yourselves, do you see your relationship reflected here? And the dominant person's looking at it, and they go, yeah, absolutely, there's so many things here I see, this is 100%, like, this is a great example of our dynamic, this is, this is exactly what we're aiming for. And I said, well, how would you feel if you knew that that was a tool that we use to help visualize domestic violence. Like, how would that change your understanding of the nature of your relationship? And the dominant got very blustery. And I'm saying dominant only because I don't want to get too much into personal details. But I mean, obviously, if this is not consensual kink, they're not really dominant. They're abusive. But I'm using their language here. Very sort of, um, defensive, very hostile, became very dismissive of the, the whole tool as a handout. And I was watching their partner get very, very quiet, and very thoughtful, and very reflective. And they canceled the next couple sessions. And then submissive partner reached out and asked if they could come back just by themselves. And usually I would say no to this, but in this situation, uh, you know, where there's domestic violence, couples counseling is contraindicated anyway. So in this situation, I said, sure. And they came in and they sat down with me and they said, you know, until I'd seen that, I hadn't really thought about it outside of the frame that they were giving me. I hadn't looked at how other people might describe our relationship. And we had a conversation about kink stigma and about anti kink bias and how it is possible for happy, healthy kink to be looked at by outsiders and called abusive. And as we're having this, they said, you know, but that's, that's not what this You know, I can tell if somebody doesn't understand versus if somebody might've been seeing something I couldn't see. And I just want to thank you for showing me that. And they literally meant the, you know, the wheel of power and control handout. We don't do couples counseling where there's domestic violence, so I offered them both referrals for individual counseling, and I didn't hear from them for quite a while. And then, almost a year later, I got a text message from the more submissive partner. And it was just, you know, I wanted you to know that I left, and I thought about where I'd always wanted to be, and I moved to the beach because I've always wanted to live by the beach. And I have a dog, and I have my own place, and I have my own job, and I only have to do what I want with who I want. And I'm exploring healthy consensual kink. And I just wanted to let you know what a difference you made showing me a piece of paper in your office.

Willow: 25:43

Oh my gosh, how

Leah: 25:44

powerful. Wow.

Willow: 25:46

I love that. Can you explain to our audience a little bit more, for those who don't know, this piece of paper that you slid across the table?

Stefani: 25:54

Yeah, there is a pretty famous, and if you two would like for your show notes, I can send the link to it. It's available, pretty, it's common use, um, a tool called the Duluth Model Wheel of Power and Control. And it's used a lot with, um, survivors of domestic violence. and it has different wedges and it's different life domains of say financial or parenting or household or what have you and all it is is in each wedge there's a list of different behaviors or actions name calling, shaming, um, breaking things, threatening the children, all sorts of different things. And it can be tricky to use with my kinky clients because there's some things on there that if you've negotiated them can be kind of fun.

Leah: 26:39

Right.

Stefani: 26:40

but In the more, you know, mainstream world, in the world of domestic violence, sexual assault, survivor advocacy, it's a really common tool to help people just kind of look at their relationship from the outside and say, oh, yeah, I don't, I don't see anything there. I, I, I, none of these things are part of my relationship. Good, we're in a good place. But if you're seeing a lot of your relationship behaviors represented there, then maybe we need to have that

Leah: 27:04

conversation.

Stefani: 27:05

And to be able to show that to them and to have the person that identified as dominant very clearly resonate with a list of abusive behaviors was a really impactful thing for them in that moment.

Leah: 27:19

Right. So what's kind of going on in my mind is, is maybe you could help clarify for our audience. An example, right? Like the first thing that comes to my mind is like, okay, humiliation play where you have, um, you have a, uh, all sorts of language, right? they open to sex and to pleasure while using that language. And from my experiences of looking into kink. There's forms that people fill out and it's very outlined what it is you want to explore so that the more dominant partner is aware of the type of language that will open you, even if the outside world would go, you don't want someone to call you that, right? And so I'm just wondering if maybe thinking about a DS couple that thinks that they're doing kink right, but in fact, what they're doing is abusive, you know, like, like you've been able to see the difference. Can you maybe give us a picture of the misuse of something that in a kink experience isn't necessarily unhealthy. It can actually be really beautiful, open someone to some realm inside of them versus when it is abusive. Does that make sense?

Stefani: 28:34

The easiest way to tell is to ask yourself, if I wanted to get off the ride for five minutes, could I?

Leah: 28:42

Okay.

stefani | interview: 28:43

If, no matter what the agreement is, no matter what the, I love your humiliation play example, because it's one that I hear a lot, this idea of verbal abuse, um, versus language that gets our synapses firing. Um, but, but, the question I always ask is if you needed five minutes. you needed a break, if you needed to just not for 30 seconds, would your partner respond to that? Whether we're talking about tickling, whether we're talking about impact play, whether we're talking about name calling. The key thing that differentiates consensual kink from domestic violence or from intimate partner violence is that either person can pause it at any time. If we're in an abusive relationship, an abuser is not going to stop because we ask them nicely If we are in a healthy kink dynamic, even if maybe we've negotiated that I don't typically say no, even if we've agreed that we have a 24/7 power exchange if I say, I need to talk to you out of scene for a minute, I need to talk to you out of role for a minute, I need to step outside with you and just talk to you, you and me. Would that be received? And where it's received, that to me is one of our biggest green flags. And that, I think, is the biggest way that we can tell, because I can't give a list of behaviors that are okay in one context and not okay in another. Because everybody's agreements are different. I am petrified of needles! When I go for my annual blood draw with my physical, my doctor gives me topical lidocaine, a single Valium, and a couple days to prepare myself.

Leah: 30:31

never had allergy shots when you were a kid. Yeah,

Stefani: 30:34

Needles will never be a part of anything that is fun

Willow: 30:37

you don't get

Stefani: 30:40

Oh, no, no, no. Let me tell you, I was so proud when I got my COVID vaccines. I'm like, I could die. It's a matter of life and death is an option right now, but I'm going to do the thing I need to do.

Leah: 30:55

okay.

Stefani: 30:57

but there's a difference between my partner pulling out needles and chasing me around the house with them because I said that I liked fear play and I want that adrenaline rush. And I know I can turn around and say, stop, I'm done, this is too much, and they would immediately put the needle away. Versus somebody that wants to see that fear in my eyes, whether I want it or not.

Leah: 31:20

Mmm.

Stefani: 31:21

And who would not respect a boundary if I said this is no longer fun for Me.

Leah: 31:25

Yeah.

Stefani: 31:26

So we can't say, these behaviors are, these names are okay to call and these names are mean. But what we can say is If I asked you to stop, would you? Whether that's a 30 second check in, or whether that's we are never going to do it again, I'm going to forget needles ever exist, they're all leaving the house immediately. Regardless of what stop looks like. If I asked you to stop, would you?

Leah: 31:51

I think that's a really important distinction. You know, I think about, um, when I think about humiliation play, and as I've looked at kink and stuff. I never really thought in my younger years that that was something I would be attracted to. But then I got older and I'm going, Oh, okay. Like I'm in a different place than I was when I was 25. You know, the difference between 25 and 45 is, is, is shows so much change and what I might've been afraid of, like someone calling me a dirty little slut. You know, that would have horrified me at 25, but at 45, I'm like, bring it on. And a lot of that has to do with like context. I wouldn't want just anybody calling me that. I would want to have a certain container and, really good communication about, you know, what that does and, and where it takes me and, and what might be too much and where I would feel like that wouldn't get a positive response. You know, like all these things that can be unwrapped with something as simple as, um, three words, dirty little slut. I mean, there's a lot to unpack there that could be really, really powerful.

Stefani: 32:56

Absolutely And one of the things that I find myself talking to my clients a lot about is why certain things work. Uh, I would say name calling, dirty little slut, things like that are one of the biggest things that my more vanilla clients are like, I don't even know why he wants me to call him that. That's just so mean. And so we talk about the way the brain works. We talk about how, you know, our brains can't differentiate between types of sensation, only that there is sensation. And if we are, you know, if we have the choice between getting, I don't know, cropped with a riding crop, which might physically hurt but not emotionally hurt, or getting called a mean name that might emotionally hurt but not physically hurt, our brains process that pain in the same way. And it releases endorphins, and it releases adrenaline, and we get that sort of full body rush of neurochemicals and neurotransmitters that feel so good for kinky people And so there are lots of people that are like, look, I don't want bruises. I don't like physical pain. I don't ever want you to smack me. But dirty little slut's gonna get that endorphin hit that I like so much, and it feels really good. And that's a much different response than, I genuinely believe you think I'm a slut, I genuinely believe you are devaluing me and dehumanizing me right now, and I genuinely know that you think that about me.

Leah: 34:21

Hmm.

Stefani: 34:22

There's a difference between

Leah: 34:25

Totally.

Stefani: 34:26

saying something I think you mean and saying something that has an effect on the brain that gets me a reaction I want.

Leah: 34:33

Right, like there's a difference between turn on value, I'm saying this to you because it turns you on, versus I'm saying this to you because I want to hurt you, and want to devalue you. Yeah, big time.

Willow: 34:45

I imagine Stefani with, um, with this book that you've written, I just want to say the name because it's just so brilliant, With Sprinkles On Top. Everything vanilla people and partners need to communicate, explore, and connect. Um, I'm imagining that you have worked with a lot of partners who, one is kink and one is not. And so I'm curious, like, what, what, do you have sort of like a protocol or how do you start out? What, how do you go about it? Like, what's the starting process with

Stefani: 35:16

I, I, I tried to kind of outline my protocol in I wanted to give people the might not be able to access a sex therapist. I mean, maybe they're in a rural area. Maybe it's just not affordable for them for any number of reasons. I wanted to kind of create something that could be self directed if it needed Um, and so the way that the book is laid out very much follows my process. We start with talking about how this information came to light. Because people discover their partner's kinky natures in lots of different ways. And some of them are more positive or less traumatic than others, and, and knowing how, how did we come to know this is an important first step. Because there's a difference between, I've always known, knew from date one, it just wasn't sure what to do with it. Versus, well, they've told me for years that they're not, and then I found their fet life profile, you know. The, the type of discovery, the way that the information comes out can really have a profound impact on the conversations that we're going to have. Because there's a difference between I've always known and I just didn't know what to do with it versus I never knew and it was actively hidden from me. So we have to start with just processing, I call it discovery or disclosure. You know, either you found out or they told you either way is fine, but the different conversations are going to bring up And then from there, we, in my practice, do something very counterintuitive, which is as As soon as we've kind of processed, and this can take some time, processed this noose and have wrapped our heads around the fact that our partner maybe wants some things that were not necessarily originally in our menu, um, I really encourage them to set that aside. I don't want to focus on the kink, I don't want to do a lot of psychoeducation around the kink, I'm not going to do a lot of how to's or why's. We're really, really going to focus on the more vanilla person. Because in America, most of us don't get the chance to do that. Kinky people are lucky in that they figure out that they're kinky and spend a lot of time thinking about their kinks. What is it specifically that I like? What is it that does it for me? Why is that? Kinky people do a lot of self reflection. That more vanilla people don't we don't have an opportunity to do. We don't get fantasy time in our junior high sex ed class. We're not taught about, like, the full menu of all the things that are possible in our college human sexuality. And so I, I really encourage my clients to Take some time to think really deeply and thoughtfully about what they like, what they're into. And a lot of times it's the first time they've ever had these I have incredibly detailed worksheets that we do where I ask them lots and lots of specific things about what do you think about when you fantasize. Do you fantasize? And then we use those to start building connections between what they already want and desire and what their partners are bringing to the table and saying, I would really like to explore this with you start to then find that commonality and build that then from there. But we can't just go, well. You found out your wife's kinky, let's go be kinky together. You have to start by giving the vanilla person space to really come to have an understanding of their own sort of intimate and erotic identity that is at least beginning to be as rich and as detailed and as deep as their partner's that's what we're going to build on and find common ground with.

Leah: 38:56

How do you support the partner that's more kinky to increase their Capacity for patience, curiosity and understanding. I've worked with a couple of couples who've been in this dynamic that you're describing and Um, it's, it's like seeing, seeing a coach or a therapist or someone who they pay to get support from. It's like, that's pretty far down the line of how much trouble the sexual relationship has been in, right? So you've got years of friction and upset around two people feeling like they haven't been met sexually. One feeling really judged, the other one feeling misunderstood. And I'm, so I'm wondering, what, how do you foster a sense of togetherness as they start to step into this unfolding?

Stefani: 39:49

So when I say I center the sort of erotic identity of the kinkier or the more vanilla person first, that doesn't mean we're ignoring the kinky person. There are lots of couples activities and interactive conversations and guided exercises the entire time that we're not necessarily labeling as kinky. Because we don't want to activate or overwhelm the more vanilla person. But we're starting to bring in sensory elements. We're starting to bring in physical touches and positions. We're starting to bring in ideas that I have found often my kinkier people kind of recognize. They're like, oh, I see where you're going with this. And so we create a container and a process that lets them know that we're working towards it, know that we're getting there, and let them see that in some tangible ways without throwing whips and chains at a more vanilla person who might still be kind of wrapping their head around the idea of a specific fetish at all, for example. it is, um, subtle, but integrated throughout and all of those are in sprinkles for people that are like, what is Stefani talking about? It's all there. If you kinkier people, if you read you'll see what I mean. You'll be like, Oh, I see what she did there. Um, but we do those in our sessions too. And we have those conversations and that's where I think working with a kink affirming sex therapist can be really helpful for these couples because so often, yes, somebody that has been holding something that they desperately want and have never been able to verbalize. Once it's finally out, they want it, they want it now, and they love you, and they want to do it with you, and they want you to love it as much as they love it, and it becomes a lot.

Leah: 41:36

Yeah.

Stefani: 41:36

So having somebody that can help them low key introduce things, that can help them facilitate those conversations or introduce Opportunities that feel safer for the more vanilla person without being inauthentic to either one is really key. So Sprinkles is there for couples that can't access, you know, somebody like me as a resource. But I really truly believe that for our mixed desire couples, our more kinky, more vanilla pairings, having somebody that kind of speaks the language of kink, but also has the clinical skill to support slow and steady progress is a really tool to have in

Leah: 42:18

And is Sprinkles already available online for

Stefani: 42:21

It is, it is out everywhere. It came out October 10th. Uh, it is also an audio book. I narrated the audio book. So if anybody is sitting here going, wow, Stefani sounds terrible, buy it on Amazon. But if, know, you're a listener, I did record it myself and it is available anywhere books are sold. Great.

Willow: 42:40

want to listen to it. I love

leah | interview | Stefani: 42:42

I already got a couple people I'm going to recommend it

Willow: 42:45

Yeah, definitely. Now, okay, so you're definitely a specialist in, in kink and vanilla couples, right? But how, do you also get couples who are like, we're both kink and we want to take it to Yeah.

Stefani: 42:58

Sure, and there's a fine line there, right? Because sometimes people in that situation, they're really looking for more of a coach. They're looking for somebody that can help them build specific sort of BDSM skills and I'm a licensed mental health provider. My insurance gets very upset if I'm like, I'm gonna teach you how to properly do electroplay. That falls outside of my scope of practice. But, where things like, you know, we need to renegotiate our relationship agreement, or something has come up that has really challenged our sense of selves within the relationship. One of my best examples of this, and I've talked about them for years, and I have permission to talk about them, is a couple I knew years ago that were in a 24/7 power exchange was dominant and It was very much he led the household, he made the decisions. And unfortunately it turned out that he wasn't necessarily great with, um, finances. And a couple of decisions were made that put them into some pretty significant financial distress. They were actually looking at, they were looking at foreclosure. And she had no choice but to step up and take over household finances. And what it did to their relationship emotionally, to now have somebody that has been the authority holder within their marriage for 20 years going, honey, can I have 20? Was really, really hard for both of them. And it wasn't just, Oh, he felt emasculated, you know, it was, it was both of them. She didn't want to be in that role either. And so a lot of the couples that I work with that are both kinky fall into something like that. There's been a life change, uh, situation around maybe physical ability or disability. Um, things with children or for my non monogamous folks changes in their relationships that will bring a double kinky. But a lot of times it's things like that. It's, it's, we are really comfortable in our kink identities, but we need help navigating this in our

Leah: 45:03

Yeah, that was another question I had for you is, how do you support a couple that's been monogamous who now wants to open their relationship? Either they both want to open it or maybe just one really wants to open it. How do you help couples navigate that kind of relationship change?

Stefani: 45:20

I always start by clarifying why they're wanting to open up. this is one thing I will say about, you know, my own personal life. I am unique in that I am a monogamous sex therapist. I think there are more of us that are non monogamous than there are, like, me and my partner. Um, but, you know, one thing that I am very confident and grounded in is that nobody should open up their relationship because they're trying to solve a problem within the That non monogamy only works when it's coming from a place of strength. When you are saying, we are really good and we want to enhance and expand our goodness and enhance and expand our love. So often where I have couples coming in and saying, well, she wants to open up, but I don't, or the reverse. I often encourage them to slow that down, not because I have any issues with non monogamy, I would say most of my client base is non monogamous. But because I want to make sure that they're doing things in the right time and for the right reasons. And often what that means is we need to work really hard on you two first, so that you can open up in a way that is safe and ethical for your future partners. And also actively going to build up and strengthen your relationship instead of putting a bandaid on a problem you two might not want to have to directly address.

Leah: 46:38

that makes a lot of sense. I see a lot of people trying to open up their relationship try to fix something that's really shaky and it seems like it just really piles on the drama. yeah.

Willow: 46:47

gosh

Stefani: 46:48

they want permission to be done. They want to be able to, you know, exit the relationship and they don't want to be the bad guy. They don't want to be the one to say, I'm out. And they're waiting for their partner to say, I'm out. And so sometimes the couples that I have coming to me, whether they're kinky or vanilla, they're looking for permission to say we did everything we could, and now we're going to evolve in a different direction. And they're looking for somebody that can help them end as gracefully and as lovingly as they began. And sometimes those conversations also start with, well, what if we opened up? And so helping people parse out what their goal in opening up is and where they want polyamory or non monogamy to take them is an important part of that healing conversation before they actually start, um, seeking out other partners.

Leah: 47:37

Any advice for people healing from sexual trauma?

Stefani: 47:40

that's a big question.

Leah: 47:42

It is.

Stefani: 47:44

I would say one of the best things you can do is work with somebody Not to harp on certified sex therapists, but we're pretty cool. That has training in somatic body work. Work with somebody that can help with the brain body connection. Especially when it comes to sexual trauma and sexual pleasure. The connections between the way our nerves talk to our body and our brain so crucial. in a healthy person that's had nothing but lovely experiences their whole life. But when our sort of brain and body maps have trauma, it can be that much harder to connect to our own physical selves before we ever bring partners So I think a lot of people talk about, you know, things like EMDR, but I really like more somatic therapies. I like, um, any of the modalities that help my trauma survivors reconnect with their own bodies, first in a very tangible, grounded, physical way. And then from there, when we're able to be more fully present in our bodies, often we feel more comfortable addressing the emotional and psychological trauma piece that can be a barrier But, but my, my go to suggestion for my trauma survivors is to find somebody that's got a good somatic psychotherapy start with reconnecting

Leah: 49:06

love that answer.

Willow: 49:06

fantastic advice

Leah: 49:09

and what advice do you have for a partner? Um, Who's supporting their partner, who's the one with the trauma?

Stefani: 49:16

It is really easy to create a narrative where you are being excluded, or shut out, or rejected. And many situations can feel like that, but I'm, I'm trained as a cognitive behavioral therapist. First and foremost, I'm all about, you know, how do we think about And I think that if we can reframe our partner's experience and our role in it as holding space for them, as being present for them, as being the shield around them that lets them do the work they need to do to heal. That it's not a rejection or an isolation, but it's two very distinctive roles and you are the one kind of holding Holding your wings out over them while they heal, that you can maintain an emotional connection, even if that physical touch isn't necessarily where it was prior answer too. Willow, any final thoughts? Any final questions?

Willow: 50:16

No, I was just gonna thank Stefani for being so amazing and just bringing so much wealth and wisdom and to our table. I know our listeners are going to love this episode. So, if you are tuning where can we find you, Stefani? What's your website

Stefani: 50:36

My practice is www.boundtogethercounseling.Com. That's the easiest way to find me and my clinical work. I also do a weekly podcast with my partner on topics all about the intersection of intimacy and technology, anything there. And that's Securingsexuality. com. We do an annual, um, conference. It just happened this year. We're already planning next year's, and a weekly podcast. So anything that touches on the ways in which, you know, technology and computers and cell phones and the internet influences and mediates our lives and relationships, we talk about that over there.

Leah: 51:11

Great. Well, everyone go check out their podcast, check out Stefani's website, and for crying out loud, buy her book! Thank you so much for being on the show and sharing your wisdom with our audience.

Stefani: 51:26

Thank you so much for having me. I really had a lovely time.

leah | interview | Stefani: 51:28

All right, y'all, you know what to do. Love, love, love, love, love, love, love.

Announcer: 51:33

Now, our favorite part, the dish.

Leah: 51:37

It's the Dish Hour with Dr. Willow Brown and Leah Piper, and we're talking about Stefani. Well, Miss Academia, that was fun. Um, it's very different from oftentimes our normal, uh, sexperts.

Willow: 51:52

Totally, yeah, I like that she brings a different spin on things and, you know, just her, her whole history, her, her background and what she is up to in the world. She's actually training clinical sexologists, uh, in Michigan, year in and year out. And, um, so we got to hear a little bit about that process and what that's all about and just how to, um, communicate around kink and BDSM and how to have a greater experience and get more out of it.

Leah: 52:22

Yeah, I think, um, that SAR part of the education process for therapists is really interesting. I'm really curious what might activate me, uh, in the long list of things that therapists are asked to see what activates or triggers them. Um,

Willow: 52:39

that'd be fun to take that assessment. Yeah, we should ask her for that assessment. I wonder if we can put it in the show notes, too, for everyone, just for

Leah: 52:46

Yeah, it'd be cool to get a copy of that. Yeah, yeah, definitely. And, um, Yeah, interesting, interesting perspective on working with a couple who, you know, thinks that they're in this D/S relationship come to find out they're really actually in an abusive relationship. I was kind of surprised to hear that for some reason. I mean, I think a lot of people would assume that pretty fast if they're, especially if they're new to what kink and BDSM really is, as opposed to the judgment that it's just a weird abusive thing. So, what were your thoughts when you heard that?

Willow: 53:24

Well, I thought it was a very captivating story, first of all, and, um,

Leah: 53:29

Yeah.

Willow: 53:29

It made me think of that, uh, it was a TV show, it was like Nicole Kidman, they were in Monterey, they were in the, you know, the, around my area, I can't remember the name of it, but um, you know,

Leah: 53:43

Big Sur. Yeah, yeah. Um, I know which one you're talking about.

Willow: 53:48

they were in this abusive relationship, but like, somehow the, like, they both got off on it, too. Um, I don't know. I didn't have many, many more thoughts than that other than like, how

Leah: 54:01

Yeah, I'm glad you actually brought that up. That's a good example.

Willow: 54:04

Yeah, and how enlightening for that couple, then, to see, like, oh, wow, this is actually not a healthy relationship. This is not a healthy dynamic. Whereas, like, sounded like the one who was in the dom role was actually really excited when he saw that piece of paper. He's like, yeah, that's what we're going for. That's what we're doing here. You know, like,

Leah: 54:23

He's like, I'm doing everything right.

Willow: 54:25

ha ha! She's like, this is what we use to determine an abusive. Yeah. And so, I mean, and I, hopefully that was enlightening for him too, you know, hopefully he got to see like, Oh wow, that's actually not healthy in, in my side of things as well. I don't know, but...

Leah: 54:44

yeah, one can hope. I thought it was also sort of interesting where you have someone who's in more of this like 24 hour power dynamic, um, and The whole money piece. It kind of reminded me because, you know, growing up, we were in this sort of patriarchal, cultish, Pentecostal religion, right? And so the message from the church was the man has the final word. And so he has to be responsible for a lot of different traditional roles within the family, and one of that was finances. And my father, that's not an aptitude of his On any level. Um, in fact, I'm the one that is in control of his financial situation now being that he's disabled and he's so relieved because, um, you know, I keep it functioning. And my mom did have an aptitude for finances and though there was so much shame within the church that she, it was frowned upon for her to do the thing that she actually was better and stronger at because it was supposed to be the man's role. And it really created a lot of dysfunction in their marriage and it took a while to unweave that and like all the shame that that particular community put on on that dynamic was really unfortunate. So I could, when she was telling the story of how confronting and that it wasn't just like this, um, you know, emasculation of him, as the power had to shift in that area of their life, I could see how much it could bring up. And, and I'm, I'm assuming that she was really able to get that couple out of You know, help them see that situation differently.

Willow: 56:30

So much of dynamics within any relationship is perspective. It's just shifting the way that you see things. So when it's always been a certain way within a dynamic, within a couple, And then all of a sudden it has to be a different way due to keeping the family safe and secure. Um, you know, I think that the, the shift of the dynamic also a shift of perspective needs to, um, go along with that as well.

Leah: 57:03

Yeah, yeah. I also think it's sort of interesting the separation between my life and the client's life, like having to hold back your own personal experience from how you support or even how you likely teach. I tend to prefer teachers that give real life examples. Um, personally. I feel like it makes them Yeah, I feel like it makes it more approachable, more human, more, there's more of an intimacy and a connection to the overall container that you are co creating. Um, and I can see where there is a power dynamic that could get, um, tricky. So I don't think one way is better than another way, but I was noticing sort of my preference and how careful you really have to be as the teacher, the professor, the clinician, the therapist that you're not using your own life experiences in a way that could over influence someone who's, you know, impressionable, where they would be better served, you know, really looking on the inside versus looking on the outside to get the answers they're seeking. So kind of interesting. I'm more of a hold them both versus one or the other.

Willow: 58:21

Yeah, well, that's just you. You are more open in your, in your sexuality, your expression, and your teaching. And, you know, I think that's one of the things that, um, your students really love about you. Is you're willing to share the, the intimacy of your own experience and be vulnerable in that. And, you know, there's different strokes for different folks, so everyone's, everyone's going to learn in a different way. And I think it's, it's honorable and respectful for sure. Her, um her way of holding that, especially in, you know, being in, in, um, universities and things like that.

Leah: 58:55

Yeah. And, and, you know, the whole insurance and clinician and all sorts of degrees that you put at risk without being by the book people.

Willow: 59:04

Totally.

Leah: 59:05

I mean, I noticed how, how you skirted that, uh, by not saying anything personal.

Willow: 59:10

Um, I'm not a by the book person, I'm more of a by the intuition kind of person. Um, but I'd be curious about our audience, you know, like, I wonder who out there is, is more likes to do things by the book versus likes to just follow your intuition. It's funny, the other day I was camping with my family and we were blowing up, my brother and I were blowing up a, um, A stand up paddle board and uh, he's like, we have to get it to 15 PSI. I'm like, are you kidding me? It's like, it's, it's firm enough. It's ready to ride. Let's go. He's like, no, no, we must do it by the book. And I was like, wow, that doesn't even occur to me to do things by the book. How about the rest of y'all let us know in the comments. Like, subscribe, and share this episode with everyone you think will love it, and we'll see you on the other side!

Leah: 1:00:03

See you on the other side! Love, love, love!

Announcer: 1:00:05

Thanks for tuning in. This episode was hosted by Tantric Sex Master Coach and Positive Psychology Facilitator, Leah Piper, as well as by Chinese and Functional Medicine Doctor and Taoist Sexology Teacher, Dr. Willow Brown. Don't forget, your comments, likes, subscribes, and suggestions matter. Let's realize this new world together.