The Sex Reimagined Podcast

Natalie Frasca: Honest Conversations on Abortion | Scars & the Hard-Won Wisdom of Unintended Pregnancy | #86

• Leah Piper, Dr. Willow Brown, Natalie Frasca, Natty Frasca • Season 2 • Episode 86

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Meet Natalie Frasca, the visionary founder of the Feminine Rebellion Podcast, who is empowering women to embrace their wildness, connect to their purpose, and rise as leaders. In this raw and revelatory episode, Natalie vulnerably shares her journey of navigating unintended pregnancy, abortion, and the complex emotions that followed as a young woman. Through a powerful process of reclamation and healing, Natalie learned to embrace her needs, speak her truth, and show up authentically in her life and relationships. She now guides other women to unleash their feminine power and step into their sovereignty.

EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS:

  • Discover how to have honest, sex-positive conversations with your children 
  • Learn to harness embodied healing rituals to integrate sexual/reproductive experiences
  • Explore how radical vulnerability can transform your relationships
  • Challenge cultural pressures on women's sexuality to live your authentic truth
  • Be inspired to lead empowered conversations around sexuality in your community


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Dr. Willow:

Natalie Frasca is the founder and CEO of the Feminine Rebellion. She is on a mission to elevate the voices of women who are out in the world and doing the work to raise our collective consciousness out of patriarchal conditioning and back into balance. Her work helps emerging female leaders unearth their wildness, connect deeply to their missions, and stop playing small. She believes all women are born leaders. And when we recognize this collectively, we harness the power to push massive ripples of love and justice into the world.

Leah:

Yummy. Yes. Natalie is awesome and her podcast is awesome too. In fact, if you want to hear me and Willow it was released on June 9th. Right. And it is the Feminine Rebellion Podcast people, but don't leave quite yet. Stay tuned in because you are going to really love her.

Dr. Willow:

so tune in, turn on, and fall in love with Natalie Frasca.

Leah:

Yeah.

Announcer:

Welcome to the Sex Reimagined Podcast, where sex is shame free and pleasure forward. Let's get into the show.

Leah:

Natalie's here. Whoop, whoop.

Dr. Willow:

Welcome Natalie.

Natalie:

thank you.

Dr. Willow:

She's like, I'm bringing the juice.

Natalie:

I am I am so juiced up for this.

Dr. Willow:

Oh we're so thrilled to have you. So Natalie is a newfound friend in the in the entrepreneurial women's space. So we're really thrilled to be getting to know her and be hosted on her podcast and now to have her on our platform. So, We're just thrilled that you're here. And when I was just chatting with Natalie, we were just kind of, rapping about what we might talk about on her podcast, and then she started telling me about how she's got teen girls and how she's talked. A teen girl and a teen boy. Is that right? One of each or Two girls? Two girls, 19 18 yeah.

Natalie:

And a 15 year old boy.

Dr. Willow:

Yes. And so how she started kind of talking to them about sexuality, I was like, oh God, we gotta have you on the show. So

Natalie:

Yeah. teen and sex It's so juicy It's

Dr. Willow:

good.

Natalie:

Yeah It's good.

Leah:

I would love to start right there because it's actually been one of the questions we've been asking speakers lately is what advice you have for parents. What's been your journey around a more sex positive education?

Natalie:

Yeah, Tell us little bit

Leah:

about like what this journey's been like in your home raising kids and addressing sexuality

Natalie:

yeah So I feel super grateful that around the time my girls were 11 and 12 or maybe 12 and 13 I came across the work of Mama Gina

Leah:

Ah yes

Natalie:

began to devour her books. And so I began to reclaim my own sexuality and this connection with what we call pussy. And, really began to listen to this like vortex of pleasure and divinity. That was a part of me. And as I went through this this own kind of awakening I realized that my girls having their own little awakenings and going through puberty. As I was kind of having this awakening and I thought, my goodness, what would it be like if we raised our children in a way where our sexuality wasn't shamed?

Dr. Willow:

And Hallelujah

Natalie:

right Hallelujah. And where we began to, reclaim or claim it from an early age, so, when I hit 40, didn't have to wait really to have the awakening that I was having.

Dr. Willow:

Right

Natalie:

I read this one of Mama Gina's books called Pussy. When I finished it, I decided that I was going to share it with my

Dr. Willow:

with the teens.

Natalie:

my little baby Ah tweens. We would lay in bed at night and I would read them sections of the book.

Dr. Willow:

Wow, that's amazing.

Natalie:

It was so amazing. And then it just, that just birthed these amazing conversations between me and my daughters. And I have to say...

Leah:

for those wondering,

Natalie:

yes!

Leah:

Ding, ding.

Natalie:

Yes, exactly Leah. And so, that I think was like this amazing point of connection between myself and my two daughters that hasn't stopped. It was like, I pulled back the curtain I said let's just get about this thing

Dr. Willow:

Let's abourt it, Yeah.

Natalie:

Let's talk about this and we

Dr. Willow:

have. How old were they at the time when you started reading it to them?

Natalie:

Want to say they were like 12 and 13

Dr. Willow:

So yeah Right at that coming of age point

Natalie:

Yeah, it was right when the book came out,

Dr. Willow:

really.

Leah:

Yeah

Natalie:

And you know we had done some talk about it like there were some American girl, you know those American girl dolls or

Dr. Willow:

Oh yeah yeah yeah

Natalie:

there were some books that accompany them about like, your body and things like that. So I had like talked about, like this is your vulva.

Dr. Willow:

Yeah

Natalie:

we had some anatomical conversations and my background is in biology, so that's always been really important to me. But this actually has been the thread that has kind of gone through the past six, seven years with my girls, and now they're both sexually active. We talk about what it's like to be in partnership. What it's like to communicate your needs to a partner. I mean, just a when my younger daughter was just beginning to be sexually active about a year and a half ago, she's, she shared with me that her boyfriend wasn't really delivering. And

Dr. Willow:

Uhhuh

Natalie:

I said, okay, this is a amazing, like this is a point, this is a great yes. This

Dr. Willow:

And learn how to ask for what you want. Yeah.

Natalie:

Thank you. Thank you. Because we all have different desires, you know, so, and thankfully she had learned about her own body. She had spent time pleasuring herself and we've always been open about that. You know when my girls asked me for vibrators we did research and...

Dr. Willow:

Love it Love it! I know

Leah:

cool

Dr. Willow:

Well done mic mom!

Leah:

there ever an awkward moment for you having these

Natalie:

conversations? Yes Yeah I mean just recently Leah, my my middle daughter is away at boarding school and you know I'm not right there with her. When you're not right there with your kids like seeing them day to day there's like that disconnect. And my daughter was telling me about this boy that she was hooking up with and, you know I had like a little bit of panic I'm like I don't know him he hasn't been in our home is he kind? Who is this human being? And so yeah there's this like letting go. And this trust. Right And being able to communicate that to her and say, like I'm nervous.

Dr. Willow:

Uh That's sweet. That's sweet. I mean just that level of communication, like exemplifying that it's okay to share that vulnerable piece of I'm nervous. I don't know this boy but you've given her such an incredible foundation that she's out there flying spreading her own wings and she knows she can come to you about anything. So I think that's such a crucial piece.

Natalie:

So I hope so. You know Willow, I think back to my own childhood and I was raised you know know quasi Catholic. And so we didn't go to church every Sunday but I went to Catholic school and you just abstained.

Dr. Willow:

Right. And which nobody fucking did, Right?

Natalie:

Yeah Which

Dr. Willow:

And nobody followed that.

Leah:

Right.

Natalie:

No no, one followed that. And I started having sex I was a late bloomer I didn't start having sex until my senior year of high school. But I got pregnant when

Dr. Willow:

You did

Natalie:

19. Pregnant when I was 19, I was a sophomore early sophomore in college and I didn't tell anyone.

Dr. Willow:

Wow

Leah:

Really?

Natalie:

I just kind of handle...

Dr. Willow:

you handled it all on your own.

Natalie:

...my own

Leah:

I was 19 too, I got pregnant.

Dr. Willow:

I was 19 three.

Leah:

Yeah.

Natalie:

Too

Leah:

Yeah

Natalie:

It's so lonely.

Dr. Willow:

How long it take before you started to talk about that?

Natalie:

Oh gosh That's a really good question. Well I've communicated that to my daughters like regularly probably not right away. You know around the time they were like 15, 16 and I knew they were sexually active that this is an experience I had and how isolating it was. And then I think the first time I really started talking about it was when I was going to get married.

Dr. Willow:

Wow.

Natalie:

I felt like I had to talk to my partner about it because there was some shame.

Dr. Willow:

Yeah you had to clear that shame You had to bring it out of the shadows bring it out of the secrecy.

Natalie:

Yeah.

Dr. Willow:

Especially heading into marriage, you know.

Natalie:

I just didn't want there to be any secrets and it was a secret.

Dr. Willow:

Right

Leah:

Well I really appreciate you bringing this up because it hasn't been brought up and I think it's such an integral part for especially female organ owning bodies that can get pregnant and do get pregnant. And it's a part of the shame thread regarding sexuality that we haven't tackled yet.

Dr. Willow:

It's true

Leah:

it's interesting that all three of us have a story

Dr. Willow:

Yeah.

Natalie:

Yeah.

Leah:

Experience And so I'm just sort of I'm having sort of a stunned moment of going, oh my God, this hasn't come up yet. This is so rich. This is so important. So thank you f or sharing that part of your story. Because it is so isolating. It comes with so many different emotions that arise and how we all experienced that, I mean I know for me I was gonzo for this guy. But he wasn't gonzo enough for me.

Dr. Willow:

Mm.

Natalie:

Mm.

Leah:

.He had already you know gotten I think six women pregnant before me

Dr. Willow:

Geez.

Leah:

So it was like I knew I couldn't count on him

Dr. Willow:

No one taught him the safe sex talk.

Leah:

Yeah, was not that person.

Dr. Willow:

Yeah.

Leah:

I didn't know I was pregnant. I was staying with my dad at the time, and he, I was having morning sickness. I didn't know, I just thought maybe I partied too hard the night before. And he was like, know you might be pregnant? And I was like stunned. And then I was like, oh my God, am I?

Natalie:

What? Your dad, your dad said that?

Dr. Willow:

Wow

Leah:

before I did and he was so compassionate which is not who I thought he was.

Natalie:

Wow.

Leah:

This would be the person I would wanna keep the secret

Dr. Willow:

Wow Well that's kind of like a beautiful healing then you had with your father.

Leah:

I wasn't conscious of oh this is a healing moment,but in this moment, I can go way to go dad.

Dr. Willow:

Yeah.

Leah:

You were you handled that really compassionately and instead of do being the big ogre that I always sort of boxed in as. As someone who would've been threatening. And my mom struggled with it a little bit.

Dr. Willow:

Yeah My mom

Leah:

was always pro-life.

Dr. Willow:

Right.

Leah:

I think my mom had experiences, right, coming of age. I think she had a pregnancy and this was when abortions were illegal in most states, and she told a school counselor and they helped her get to New York City by herself.

Dr. Willow:

Damn.

Leah:

To terminate a pregnancy and it was so traumatic for her.

Dr. Willow:

Jesus.

Leah:

She felt like she made the biggest mistake.

Dr. Willow:

Oh.

Leah:

And from then on she was a really a more of a pro-life supporter.

Dr. Willow:

So sad.

Leah:

Was part of my coming of age education, was she just needed to get her four daughters through high school without getting pregnant.. That was her job so she was really pretty sex negative She would get us birth control if we asked but there was a feeling that I would disappoint her. And her fear of just never wanting anyone she loved to go through what she went through. But she's the one that took me to the abortion clinic, the one that for it, she's the one that took care of me. So despite her personal feelings I think she knew that this was also the best choice for me.

Dr. Willow:

Yeah

Natalie:

Yes

Leah:

um and and then she ended up sharing some other family secrets and some other things that had happened and everyone else's way of processing that. And that I really felt like there was a healing there.

Dr. Willow:

That's beautiful I love it when those family secrets come out because it just creates this stronger bond between parent and child and our siblings, and it creates this more vulnerability, more more space and more openness to actually just be authentic and real with who we truly are. Natalie did you decide to handle it all on your own because of the sort of religious Catholic Christian upbringing?

Natalie:

Well feel like something divine happened the night before I was scheduled to have an abortion and yes I had pooled friends resources money to do this I miscarried.

Dr. Willow:

Wow. So you didn't have the abortion, you miscarried.

Natalie:

I miscarried. And I miscarried in the tub of my apartment.

Dr. Willow:

Wow.

Natalie:

And I was much further along.

Dr. Willow:

Then you had thought?

Natalie:

Thought I had PCOS so my periods have always been irregular.

Dr. Willow:

Erratic, Yeah

Natalie:

I didn't even know I was pregnant. And it was a very, very painful experience. I was dating a man, a boy, at the time who was not a kind soul. And so, yeah I had a roommate but I didn't tell her what was happening. I just spent the night I mean hours and hours in the bathtub by myself.

Dr. Willow:

All by yourself Oh, gives me the chills. So many women around the world have have had that isolating, really challenging, hard experience. And just for everyone listening who can relate to these stories that we're sharing just, you know, knowing that you're not alone. And um there's there's always support for you. You can reach out anytime for help and guidance, even years later.

Natalie:

Yeah It's so interesting. It you know you say I never got support on any of this and I don't talk about it.

Dr. Willow:

Right.

Natalie:

I mean it's it's not something I've really I've certainly never talked about it on air. I mean you guys are pulling some real stuff out of me. I mean um yeah just just Actually when I was talking about being in that tub, my entire body is having a response, yeah, to just remembering.

Dr. Willow:

I can feel it. Yeah I can feel it in my own body Yeah

Leah:

Yeah It's a, like a clench, you know that sort of happens in the body. And just the welling up of remembering those super vulnerable moments of just being by yourself.

Natalie:

Yeah.

Leah:

Yeah.

Natalie:

It's like I know it was the right thing.

Dr. Willow:

Right.

Natalie:

And I was going the plan was to abort. And yet I have to say that definitely think to myself regularly, oh I could have a 27 year old.

Dr. Willow:

Yeah I have that thought.

Leah:

I was just about to say that. I was like I was gonna be due on October 15th.

Dr. Willow:

Oh wow, you your due date

Leah:

I would have this kid, that if they would probably be done with college right have a full grown adult as a child.

Dr. Willow:

Nuts.

Leah:

Just being gobsmacked by the whole idea. And also like I sometimes fantasize about how beautiful they would be.

Dr. Willow:

Me too!

Leah:

Ya know?

Natalie:

Yes

Leah:

this I had this pregnancy was with a black man and so I can't help but fantasize about like

Dr. Willow:

Beautiful Little mixed Beautiful Yeah bi-racial child.

Leah:

Like how gorgeous they would be. And my heart melts around it. I was so kind of heartbroken. This was hard for me because I, I wanted it, but I also knew I didn't want to raise a kid alone.

Dr. Willow:

Yeah

Leah:

I was very clear about that.

Dr. Willow:

And you're still a child at 19 you're still.

Leah:

Well, I made him do a ritual with me. Oh my I was this point in my life I was really into magic. And so I still have a pouch. I hemp macramed made this pouch and inside I put charms of things. I was going to name the baby Owley because I was obsessed with Owls at the time. And And so, and so, I cast a circle with a knife and salt and like the whole four directions, and

Dr. Willow:

I Yeah

Leah:

made that MF go through that with me.

Dr. Willow:

Good Good girl. That's right.

Leah:

and you didn't show up to take me, and you didn't pay for it, but you will show for this. Yeah.

Dr. Willow:

How did that affect him?

Leah:

We stayed in touch over the years. It was hard. We both cried. He loved me. He loved me. We were soulmates on so many levels. His conditioning was so, dysfunctionally wired that he couldn't be the person I think he most wanted to be.

Dr. Willow:

Yeah Yeah

Leah:

There was a soulful thing there. I just loved him because I loved him. I think he felt the same way about me. He recently passed away, but we had stayed in touch over the years. I mean, I'd go back home and I still wanted to call him up

Dr. Willow:

See him Yeah.

Leah:

because he was a love, he was an amazing, beautiful soul spirit. Mm. But he would not have made a good father.

Dr. Willow:

No.

Natalie:

mm.

Leah:

So that was a choice and that was the whole pregnancy where they kind of, the abortion type where they suck everything out of you. So that was a little more traumatic going through that whole process. I had a second abortion and that was when they, I got the abortion pill. So it a matter of sort of taking a couple of days off of work. And just sort of hanging out. Of like, I don't ever fantasize about that ever coming to term. There was never a desire, I don't even remember the guy's

Dr. Willow:

name. Mm.

Leah:

There's more shame connected to

Dr. Willow:

that Yeah Yeah

Leah:

because I was really, it was through a period in my life where alcohol was the name of the game. Including being a pothead and it was all about the bars, and I was in this really troubled power dynamic with men. I wanted to take their power because I felt like they had been taking my power. And so I was kind on this Kali rage thing. Was watch out world I discovered the goddess in me and she's an angry bitch. And she's out for retribution. And so I would storm through those bars and I would imagine I had fireballs in my hands and who's going to catch'em? And I was just, throw him, who's going to be it tonight? And I was hungry. I would devour them. I was really kind of crazy. I've come a long way from that, but it was like the goddess smacked me down. Yeah. She said, hang on what the fuck are you doing? This is not the representation of the loving being you want to be. Yeah Of what you, of what my soul and spirit was driving me towards a desire to experience love at the highest level. And I wasn't living that out because I didn't really love myself, So then it was something about that journey. I'd just done my first Tantra certification, and now it was like, oh, the path is cleared up. The way is clear. And the first thing that has to be done is this whole self-love piece. So

Natalie:

Wow.

Leah:

very karmic. It was a very deep message from the universe to kind of clear my way. But not and in shame in such a different way than the first one. The first one probably is because I had a heartfelt connection to the person.

Dr. Willow:

Yeah

Natalie:

Hmm

Leah:

person it was like it didn't feel very consequential. Except to smack me around and go what are you

Dr. Willow:

doin? Yeah.

Natalie:

So what shifted after that, I'm so curious?

Leah:

So what shifted after that is I realized I was playing a very dangerous game. I had to reckon in my being, I had to first own that I wanted love and I was pretending that I didn't.

Dr. Willow:

Hmm

Leah:

I pretended that I was a sophisticated independent woman who could take lover. She could have as many lovers as she wants. You don't actually have to love me, you just gotta fuck m pretty good. And you don't have to take me out to dinner, I'll just see you on my Sundays. You're my Sunday guy or you're my Wednesday guy. And it was like, I was pretending that I was living some sort of sex in the city thing, and that love didn't matter but it was such a fucking lie.

Dr. Willow:

That's all you really wanted underneath it all.

Leah:

That was like masking my deep desire for someone to want me.

Natalie:

Oh my gosh, yes.

Leah:

To love me. To commit to me to seduce me and hopefully to tell me all the things that I wanted to believe about myself, but I couldn't believe it from the inside, I needed outside validation. So all that just started to peel open and I started to see the truth and when you really want the truth be prepared to practice living it, because you can't keep lying to yourself once you confront it. And I Tantra was the way that helped me See you can't really practice that as an art form if you're not if you're not really ready to get naked with yourself.

Dr. Willow:

Well, I think that's one of things that really scares people about stepping onto the sacred sexuality path is it's like, oh fuck I'm going to be opening a can of worms, And really looking at what's true for me, really looking at what's authentic and face and up for healing. But once you get going with it it's like, oh thank God a layer off, feel so much better. You just step more and more into your wholeness as you journey. It

Leah:

I think that's probably true for a lot of people but I think what else is true for some, like for me it was a relief. It was like, I was like a relief to finally go oh I don't have to keep on lying to myself anymore, like it was a relief to go oh there's some place that I can actually experience love.

Dr. Willow:

Yeah

Leah:

because I because here's a place where people want to actually play the game of love. It was sincere

Natalie:

That desire, that deep desire to be loved and to kind of step away from this Individuation, we've taught to be so individualistic right that especially women in order to survive we have been taught we have to do it all on our own. You know, my cracking point was the near dissolving of my marriage where I had so brought my masculine my into everything I did for so long, having been raised, in a house full of boys. I thought I had to power through everything. I brought Kali to everything.

Leah:

Really?

Natalie:

Yeah, it was like I can do it on my own. I don't need anyone. And I brought that energy

Dr. Willow:

into the marriage

Natalie:

marriage and

Dr. Willow:

No No room for the

Natalie:

feminine. It actually, No, and it actually isolated my husband because he felt like he couldn't do anything for me

Dr. Willow:

He couldn't be in masculine.

Natalie:

I wouldn't him. But I was so ashamed of wanting love

Leah:

Yeah

Dr. Willow:

I think that's

Natalie:

I a really

Dr. Willow:

big piece for so many of us, Not only wanting it but needing it. There's this fear of being needy. And it is okay to need things like we need water we need shelter we need food we need love, like we need community. We are tribal beings and we need things. And so to stand in the power and claim what you need, one of the most powerful things I think that we can do as, human beings then, but especially as women.

Natalie:

yes, but we've been enculturated. I mean, as a kid, I remember hearing like my older brothers, they would date a woman and there were, I would hear things like, she's high maintenance.

Leah:

Oh.

Natalie:

Or like, oh God, she's, she's needy.

Leah:

Yeah.

Natalie:

And I absorbed all of that. Right?

Dr. Willow:

Well, don't want be that.

Natalie:

Don't want to be that. Yeah And so I was a very cool Girl. Right? Like all of my friends were guys. I went on all of the ski trips, the hiking trips only woman present. Up rah rah rah!

Leah:

Right.

Natalie:

I can do everything, And until eventually, at 40 I cracked.

Leah:

Wow

Natalie:

I was on like antidepressants, anti-anxiety meds.

Leah:

So did you and your husband overcome or tackle or resolve whatever Kali, the Kali that was in the way?

Natalie:

Yeah, well it actually was me asking for a divorce. And because he was working all the time and I was like also working, but kind of raising three kids and I was feeling totally depleted. But I didn't know how. I didn't even know what I wanted. So we were we had been in couples therapy for years and this one particular couples therapy session I said, I have a lawyer. Get yours I'm done. And our therapist said to me, what do you want? And I was like I want a condo in the center of town I want someone to shovel my walkway and I want probably a lover. I want all my needs taken care of. And he was like well how do you want to feel? Or how will that make you feel? And I was like, what?

Dr. Willow:

Right You hadn't even thought about that.

Natalie:

I'm like, feel? Like I don't freaking know what you're even talking about right now. And I remember I paused and for several minutes and I just started to cry. Mm And it was like one of those cries I was so embarrassed and it was like I wanted to like go over to the corner of his office and vomit because I was like

Dr. Willow:

Wow

Natalie:

all of a sudden I had this.Image in my head of like being in my kitchen. Jerry Garcia's on the radio. My three little kids are dancing wildly around the kitchen. I'm standing at the stove stirring a pot of like my family's ragu. My husband comes up behind me pours me a glass of red wine puts his beard on my neck My hair stands up on my body and like I just feel like alive.

Leah:

Wow

Natalie:

And I was like

Dr. Willow:

That's

Natalie:

the picture for everyone I was like that's how I want to feel

Leah:

Wow

Natalie:

I

Leah:

Wow I

Natalie:

want to feel taken care of, I want to feel adored, I want to feel like a queen, I want to

Dr. Willow:

Held, like you are

Natalie:

I wanna

Dr. Willow:

like you're

Natalie:

yes I want to I want to I want to feel I like the

Dr. Willow:

feminine within the masculine container.

Natalie:

Yeah but I had didn't have words for that. Right

Leah:

Yeah

Natalie:

I had never experienced that before. It was foreign to me. And I mean to be honest to be thought of as a queen or a princess growing up was like, oh she's a princess. Like it was

Dr. Willow:

Yik. Yeah. It looked down upon.

Natalie:

It it was looked down upon. So I remember sharing this in that therapy session and then kind of putting my head down and like afraid to meet my husband's gaze because I thought he would be like, What?

Dr. Willow:

Right

Leah:

Wow And

Natalie:

he leaned in.

Dr. Willow:

Aw

Leah:

Yeah

Natalie:

He actually leaned in I remember it exactly, our chairs were kind of like opposite each other, but kind of facing and he leaned in towards me and he was like I want to do that.

Leah:

Oh

Natalie:

And

Leah:

Aw

Dr. Willow:

Love saves the day!

Natalie:

Right I mean. And he was like please let me. Mm And I was like oh my God. So the next several years were just this unraveling, this unwinding.

Dr. Willow:

Wow

Natalie:

From like all of my old stories my old narratives my old conditioning. I'm like how do I get back to the place where I feel like I am, back to what you were saying Leah, deserving

Leah:

Yeah

Natalie:

of these things that I desire that all humans deserve.

Dr. Willow:

Right.

Natalie:

I believe every human desire is to be seen. Mm-hmm. To be loved, To be cherished, to be held. Men and women.

Leah:

Yeah. A 1000 percent.

Natalie:

My husband, my husband loves to be held held. Anyway so that was the beginning.

Leah:

What a great story!

Dr. Willow:

Now you're still with that same husband?

Natalie:

We are yes, 22 years in.

Dr. Willow:

That's a beautiful love story. See everyone listening if you just get vulnerable if you just get to the root of the feeling that you want to have and you express, it even if you don't know the words for it if even if you don't know how to express it.

Leah:

Or even if someone doesn't know how to give it to you. Man, the medicine of you saying it out loud for yourself is a direction.

Natalie:

Because he could have said, he could have walked away.

Dr. Willow:

Yeah

Natalie:

You know he could have said I don't understand or I can't do that. I mean that's the risk in vulnerability

Dr. Willow:

yeah yeah

Natalie:

don't you're not always met.

Dr. Willow:

Mm-hmm You're not, that is the risk.

Leah:

But you definitely will not be met if you don't explore what you need in order to be met.

Dr. Willow:

That's right right. And it's a practice so that when somebody who can meet you in the way that you want to be met, you're able to express the way you want to be met.

Natalie:

Yeah and it's been a practice over the past seven years since we had that one session of like continually coming back to each other and like being vulnerable and sharing what's on our heart, without like starting with anger or starting with a harsh boundary. But like learning how to express our feelings

Leah:

Yeah

Dr. Willow:

Yeah

Natalie:

a way that they can be heard.

Dr. Willow:

Yeah So powerful and how I'm so curious how that sort of like more emotional connection and vulnerability and really seeing each other for who you truly are how that changed your sex life, your love, life and your intimacy?

Natalie:

Was going to say our sex life is off It's off the charts.

Dr. Willow:

It

Natalie:

I have to say I, you know we don't have a lot of examples of like really great sex lives later in life. I mean porn, everything that you see online it's like you know, 20 somethings. There aren't examples of like people in long partnerships.

Leah:

Yeah That's

Natalie:

hot steamy sex

Dr. Willow:

Mm-hmm In their forties and Yeah Later.

Natalie:

And I'm 47 and I feel like I am just getting started.

Dr. Willow:

Nice

Natalie:

you yeah and so is he, I think we had fallen into patterns of like how can you, how do you reach orgasm fastest?

Leah:

Right. Right. The routine. This is what works, we both get off in this position.

Natalie:

Yeah

Leah:

you ever have right right

Natalie:

now it's like oh okay we're going to spend an hour exploring each other's bodies and no one's going to have an orgasm.

Leah:

Yeah, I love taking orgasm off the table.

Dr. Willow:

Yeah Like you're not allowed

Leah:

when it's not the goal.

Dr. Willow:

Way more fun. Yeah it's like the forbidden fruit. Oh God I'm so close.

Leah:

Yes.

Natalie:

Yes, Just being like how does this feel? And like your bodies feel different everyday.

Dr. Willow:

Yeah.

Leah:

Yeah.

Natalie:

Like one day it's like the small of my back, the next day it's behind my ear like you don't know And so it's like it's a it's always this dance and it's, I don't know, It's just really exciting to be in a partnership where I feel like oh we're both safe and we both, I want to explore kink we're we're moving in different directions

Dr. Willow:

There's so much to explore like

Natalie:

is

Dr. Willow:

Yeah Once you

Leah:

feel like the three

Dr. Willow:

book

Leah:

interesting parallels because that's my next adventure too Natalie. Is going okay I want to see what the kink landscape is all about I've done all the spiritual stuff, let's see if I can get a little, I want to open up a different box.

Dr. Willow:

Like tie me up and spank me pull my hair and bite me. We've been playing with I gotta tell you ladies we've been playing with Biteupuncture, so we like bite along the acupuncture meridian lines. It is fucking delightful. It is so yummy. I can't believe this is the

Leah:

first time you're telling me this is this. Is this a recent discovery?

Dr. Willow:

Yeah Well I discovered it with the last guy, but now I'm having way more fun with the new guy.

Natalie:

energy healers merging.

Dr. Willow:

So powerful.

Natalie:

Yeah.

Leah:

I wanted to kind of, just to give you a chance, Willow, because we both, all three of us had abortions at 19. Is there anything that you want to just say about whatever shame arose through your experience and how you overcame that?

Dr. Willow:

Well, my experience, which I've shared on our podcast many times before is I was raped at 19. It was a date rape situation, ruphenyl and alcohol. And I got pregnant from that. So, pregnancy from rape is, there's a a lot of emotions there and a lot of shame and guilt and you know, what did I do wrong and fuck, I shouldn't have put myself in that situation, but, just all the things. And and then also not even really realizing that it was rape until I told a friend the story of what had happened and she was like, that is rape. And and then coming to terms with that, I think one of the hardest parts. So I knew I was going to abort. Though my parents offered to raise it. They were very anti-abortion, Catholics as well. And they offered to raise it and all these things and so, but always inside of myself, I was like, no fucking way am I having a child who was conceived in rape at 19. Like, I'm just not doing that with my life. You know? And I did a lot of ritual around it too. And just did a lot of healing. Got on the healing path after that. So I have no regret. I'm so grateful for that sand that I turned into a pearl in my life. But I think one of the hardest parts for me was telling my dad about it.

Leah:

Oh, I

Dr. Willow:

feel the emotion.

Leah:

Yeah. Oh yeah.

Dr. Willow:

It was emotional, it was hard because knew he would be pissed, because when, kids get hurt, dads get angry. It's, I'm watching it happen around me right now. And it's it's an interesting phenomenon. And so he and there was no connection to this guy who had done it. So it wasn't like he could go after him or anything Yeah There was nothing to do. So.

Leah:

And you couldn't protect him from the feelings he was going to feel. Exactly.

Dr. Willow:

Yeah. So was the hardest part for me. And then, my mom was great. She's a nurse and so she was like, well if you're going to do this, then I'm finding you the doctor. I'm setting up the appointment I'm taking you, and all that kind of stuff. It was crazy though. It was exactly one year to the day after I had graduated high school. So my family home is like right up the road from my high school. And so I remember like, being at home and like convalescing and kind of, just afterwards, after the abortion and just hearing the graduation down the street. So,

Leah:

Oh wow. What was the significance of that for you?

Dr. Willow:

I think it was that like, I was like, wow, one year out, one year out high school, one year out of the family home and this is where I'm at? And there was lot of medicine in that both like, shame, like this is where I'm at and guilt and all of that. But then also, like, let's turn it around.

Leah:

Wow. What a powerful story

Dr. Willow:

And I did I turned it around. I think it was that... so I stayed at the house. I had been living in Santa Cruz for the past year and everyone, my parents were like, you can need to move home. Like no more being up there. that. No I am not moving home that would be total failure in my mind. Right? But I remember like convalescing that whole week and being back in my childhood room again too, and like, Ooh, here comes some more emotion. And the full moon shining through the window like several nights later. And it was, and then I actually self pleasured and it was the first time that I'd ever self pleasured by putting my fingers inside of my yoni.

Leah:

Wow.

Dr. Willow:

I'd always just humped a pillow up until that point, Yeah.

Leah:

Right.

Dr. Willow:

And something about doing that and like putting my fingers inside was just like so healing and so powerful. I'll never forget that moment with the

Leah:

moon shining Oh so

Dr. Willow:

through

Leah:

you told that part of the story. Wow, Willow,

Dr. Willow:

Yeah and I was like this is, the, I think that was the moment that like the priestess and the goddess came through for me it was like, this is all you have to do is just heal. Heal your body, heal sexuality, and heal sexuality on the planet. I then decided, I was like, I'm going to heal. I'm going to reform sexual education in the school systems because what bullshit it was that we learned. Like we didn't learn anything, and it was all embarrassing and weird. And my mom taught me more about sexuality in her nurse way than I ever learned in school. So I was like, I'm going to reform sexual education and I actually ended up going to the juvenile hall here in Santa Cruz County and I went up to the juvenile hall and I talked to these kids who were in juvie about what rape was. I was like, rape is not always this black and white thing. It can be very gray and very like, you can not even know it happened. And I told my story and several of the young girls were like, whoa, I've been raped too then if that's what it is, then I've been raped as well. And so this was really kind of like my second experience with date rape and my very first time having sex ever, which you'll hear on my interview was that, was a very gray date rape experience as well when I was 16. So, I didn't have a very good kickoff with sexuality. I basically got on the sexual healing path, like right off the bat.

Leah:

Wow, isn't that amazing? Like, all of our lives have had this like impactful, I don't know if, I think we'd call it a pivot, certainly an inflection point that that so many girls go through.

Dr. Willow:

Yeah.

Leah:

and I just remember there being like An embarrassment, like even now, I kind of told my mom story and I'm wondering, eek I hope my mom's okay that I just told her story.

Dr. Willow:

Right. Right.

Leah:

Because we hold these things so close. We don't tend to openly talk about it. We certainly don't openly ask about it. I think it's one thing that women tend to do when they have enough like emotional capital between each other and you just start talking about your lives and what it's like to grow up in your family or the state you lived in or that starts to open up I think. But oftentimes between female friendships. Unlike you, Natalie, I always had girlfriends. I didn't, I wanted to be friends with the guys, but I didn't quite know how. So like, as you were sort of processing this experience for yourself and you too, Willow, did you have friends you could tell?

Dr. Willow:

I did, I had close girlfriends. Yeah, they were the ones who helped me through it, particularly one.

Natalie:

I had one girlfriend who had had an abortion in high school and she was one of my closest friends, and so I definitely talked to her about it. But I don't think that I had the, my own emotional awareness around it. It was like I wasn't even paying attention to what was, it was all such a mess that I wasn't like fully even in my body.

Leah:

Right.

Natalie:

And so it's really just been very recently that I've started to share this sort of thing with other girlfriends. And I mean, certainly I'm thinking about my own story and thinking about the people who might hear this and be like, wait, what?

Dr. Willow:

Right. All some of your closest friends who don't know about it

Leah:

Yeah.

Natalie:

And and I think, speaking to what you were saying, Leah, about this being an inflection point, like It's been like in retrospect, there's a lot of learning there, but I think like it can go both ways, right? Like with Willow you, you took the sand and it, you turned it into a pearl, like it changed the direction of your life. And I think for others, and maybe even myself included, it just created another boundary of, or another layer of shame for me It took me down I went down a different path with it of more hiding. And more disconnection from my body. And I think that's because I didn't really have a community to process it with. You know, when I found out I was pregnant, it was right around Easter and it was before before I had the miscarriage, my family was all gathering in Washington DC. I had two brothers at Georgetown I planned on telling everyone at Easter. Like, that was my plan. We were all, the whole family was going to be together and I was going to tell everyone, and I just couldn't.

Leah:

Yeah.

Natalie:

And I just didn't. But yeah, it was, so that point, it's like you can go either way. And I think the that's the power of the work that you two are doing together is to like elevate our collective consciousness around it and like bring it into the light It's so powerful.

Dr. Willow:

Yeah. Yeah

Leah:

Well, I think that's why it's so important that this came up today because, which is going to be like my next question to both of you is, how can we do this differently? Like, what can we change and should we change some part of the process? Because what I would love to see happen is that boys and girls who find themselves in this situation including adults...

Dr. Willow:

yeah.

Leah:

Are, have a place to be met with compassion in that judgment. Because i, my scariest revealing of this was I had another very, we were. Best friends growing up, our moms were pregnant together, and her and her family were very Christian, very pro-life. And I don't know what, I don't know what the guts it took inside of me to tell her, but I was really afraid to tell her to the point that I entered the conversation with a lot of defensiveness. It was almost like a test. Are you going to be my friend or are you going to be my judge and executioner? And she was so compassionate and so loving and so dear and, and I think that was the next level of shame is how could I believe that this dear friend of mine would be anything less than loving towards me?

Natalie:

Hmm

Leah:

so I think that's another, I guess one of my takeaways as I process it out loud is, When we tell our secrets to people who love us, typically, even when I think I would be shamed by them, I'm usually meant with more love than I think I even deserve. And so it's taken me by surprise when I've shared a secret and I had some pretty big secrets coming up. Some secrets I thought for sure I would be rejected if I told and confronted.

Natalie:

Hmm.

Leah:

people that I loved with, and they always surprised me with their love and their compassion and their oftentimes their forgiveness or their apology. And so I'm kind of curious about your thoughts on that, and then also what do you think we could do to make this process easier on, on other people as a culture, as a tribe?

Natalie:

Yeah, I think that's a really hard question right now because we're so divided.

Leah:

Right and Roe vs Wade got reversed.

Natalie:

Yeah, our rights are being taken away and it seems like people who are anti-abortion or want to take reproductive rights away from women they're getting louder and louder, so it feels less and less safe. So, you know, I guess I wish there were more circles for younger women. It's like, I think about getting down to the root. Mm-hmm Like, can we start with, and I don't know how, Yeah, so. but you know, can we, can it start in the families, can it start with like, awake women who have children, any, anywhere on the gender spectrum and be having these conversations about, sexuality, self-pleasure, sex, abortion. Okay.

Leah:

And I think even if you don't have kids being the woman or the man in the neighborhood

Natalie:

Yes.

Leah:

For people to come

Natalie:

yes.

Leah:

Of girls who maybe they couldn't go to their family, but they could go to their aunt or they could

Dr. Willow:

Or they could go to their friend's parents. Yeah exactly

Natalie:

Yeah. Just yesterday my daughter had a friend over and they were kind of in their bed. They were like giggling something. Oh, I think I have a UTI and oh, I think I, Zara said, oh, I think she has a UTI. And I said, okay. So, you know, do you, you make sure you pee after you have sex and she

Dr. Willow:

She hadn't

Natalie:

looked

Dr. Willow:

one yet, huh?

Leah:

Right. I really

Natalie:

And she was like, yeah. Okay well

Leah:

safe to admit to you that I have sex?

Natalie:

I'm like, come on. And then all of a sudden it was like we opened the, you know Opened up. It opened up and it was, she

Dr. Willow:

It's so beautiful.

Natalie:

yes, And I'm like, and like a quick shower, whatever, but uncomfortable you should call your doctor. And but it was like, wow, it's okay to talk about And I'm like yeah.

Dr. Willow:

And just a quick doctor plug for for UTIs for all of you out there who do get them after sex. Because I have many patients who come through, have them chronically UTIs and yeast infections due to you know, different partners and sex, and just even sometimes a new partner can bring this forward. So, so definitely pee after sex. If you tend toward yeast infections, it's not a bad idea to do a douche with either apple, a little bit of apple cider vinegar and water or food grade hydrogen peroxide a little bit with some water. If you tend toward UTIs, just take D-mannose after if you, if you're having sex, take it after you've had sex. So, D-mannose is the active ingredient in cranberry. I don't find cranberry pills to be really very successful. But if you take the D especially if you're like, I'm right about, I can feel a UTI coming on, get it early, get preventative about it. Keep D-mannose on hand and open up the little capsule and put it under your tongue. Do that like three or four times that first day and then keep taking three or four doses. You can swallow the subsequent days, swallow those three or four caps for another four days or something. You should be able to prevent UTIs for that Yeah.

Natalie:

I'm writing that down.

Leah:

ding ding ding.

Natalie:

Okay.

Leah:

You know, I do want to just, if I can just share a little celebration. Okay so I had moved to Oregon after the abortion, the first one. And every October 15th the due date, I would cast another circle

Dr. Willow:

Hmm.

Leah:

I would get that my bag, and I would do the whole thing. And I probably only did it for like four or five years, but that the second year I was there, flowers were blooming right in the spot of where I casted the circle. And it was like, it felt, it was like such, it affirmed something so important to me. And I Think there was that symbolism that forgiving myself became more possible. Like something in my soul and spirit, like what had resolved something. I just wanted to kinda share that, sort of like, to finish that loop

Dr. Willow:

I love that you shared that.

Leah:

I'm really glad I kind of created some sort of ceremonial symbolism because that first one was really meaningful. And, the second one, again, I made the right decision for me. And when I think about like the pro-life versus the pro-choice, I also know that it doesn't matter what choice you make, whatever choice you make is the right choice. Because that's the is. Because that's what is.

Dr. Willow:

And if you're struggling with that choice there's, there's usually a mind component, like an ego, prefrontal cortex lobe component. And then there's something in your heart that says something different. And if you're, and if you're heart and your head or in battle with each other, go down to your womb and listen to your womb. What does she have say? What is it that you want to give birth to in this life? Is it a human child or is it something different. And I'm glad you said that about Ritual because I did so many rituals after that abortion. And River was, this is another fun piece of my abortion story is I knew it was a little boy and I named that Little Spirit Child River. And so I would always go to the river and I would invite my friends, my male friends, my girlfriends, and we would have these ceremonies and open the directions and do these rituals to heal and clear and put things in the river, you know, just all that. I just was doing that a lot and and so River, the Little Spirit River was always with me throughout my life. And then just about four years ago I was with my long-term partner, seven and a half years with him, and he was always like, let's get a dog, let's get a dog, let's get a dog. And I was like, no, I don't need one more thing to take care of. Right? But then finally I was like, okay, I'm 39. I went on a sabbatical. Do I really not want to have children in this lifetime or what's going on here? So I went away for a month and I decided, yeah, it's true, I really don't want to give birth to a child through my body, but I was like, okay, but I do want to get a dog now. I'm ready. Let's get a dog. Right? So I come back from that journey and I'm like, all right, I'm ready. Let's get a dog. He jumped on it. He's like, got us on the wait list for this like, Super cool dog, a little cava-poo-chon. It's like a super high end little mutt. And so we're on the waiting list and we're waiting for like eight weeks for this dog to be born and to be ready to pick up from Arizona, the whole bit. And we're hiking around Colorado. We're on a trip and we're thinking of names for the dog. We think of all these millions of names we can't land on one. Can't land on one. We come home. And he is like, he looks at me one day and he's like, I know. I know the name of the dog and you're going to love it. And he's like, River. And I was like, I love it. And he didn't know, he didn't know that I had named the Child River. He knew about the abortion and all that. He didn't know.

Natalie:

No. Did you tell him?

Dr. Willow:

Yeah of course. So now we have our little baby river puppy and he is amazing.

Leah:

River

Dr. Willow:

little pups

Leah:

Amazing

Natalie:

an incredible

Dr. Willow:

So it's crazy how things come around full circle in life and like really trusting the journey. I think ritual and ceremony are so, so helpful and so crucial in that healing process.

Natalie:

Yeah it's the anchoring point, it's like bringing awareness to the emotions and the energy that are there right then, and like just honoring them. Like saying okay, like here we are, these are the energies present and let's play with them. I mean, I wish that I knew you two goddesses like years ago. Because I'm probably only like six years into ritual and like this is something that we can bring

Dr. Willow:

for sure

Natalie:

to women. I mean, I know I see it's happening more and more, but I think

Dr. Willow:

Rites of passage Moments of shift

Natalie:

pass Yes,

Leah:

so

Dr. Willow:

yeah

Leah:

that

Natalie:

it

Dr. Willow:

Especially for men, young boys as well, because they don't have like a physical like, oh, I started my menarche, and, and not only do are we not like, bringing that, ritual and that time forward for men. But I guess in Jewish culture, they have a ba mitzvah, but but otherwise there's not a

Leah:

But other

Dr. Willow:

than the military. Of rites of passage for young kids, women, or boys girls or boys.

Natalie:

Yes.

Dr. Willow:

A big piece.

Leah:

I think it's interesting to mark a significant experience, whether it's negative or positive, with some sort of self acknowledgement of saying, that was really hard. And I'm on the other side

Natalie:

Yes.

Leah:

or that was really amazing and I never want to forget it.

Dr. Willow:

Yeah

Leah:

it. And so there's something about ritual because it's taking, sometimes it's taking just like the ordinary, making it extraordinary. That helps you give it meaning. And provide a purpose, because when we've gone through something that's really heart aching

Natalie:

Mm

Leah:

Painful, we go, Why

Natalie:

yes.

Leah:

to happen to me? Why is this happening to me? What's wrong with me? When we just are like so shredded by that. To be able to sort of come to, I don't know if it's closure. I think for me it was closure, but to make

Natalie:

sense of it,

Leah:

to give something that's painful purpose. So we don't stay in that place of shame that keeps us crippled or really afraid of moving forward with life.

Natalie:

Yeah It's this place of acceptance and like, I, I love that kind of celebration piece.

Dr. Willow:

Yeah.

Natalie:

Of it. It's like it doesn't have to be like glorious to be celebrated, Like it doesn't have to be up here. we can actually like celebrate the dark stuff

Dr. Willow:

for sure.

Leah:

Absolutely. And, some of think the, important that we do that

Dr. Willow:

Yeah And some of the best time. There's no bad time to ritualize or to ceremonialize anything, but New Moon and Full Moon, y'all, those are great times especially

Leah:

Yeah It's never too late. If something tragic happened to you at six years old and you're 66 by God, there's, it's never too late to to create a ritual for any time in your life

Dr. Willow:

Absolutely Okay We could talk forever I know I know! We love Natalie. It's so fun to connect with her. Oh my God.

Leah:

Natalie

Dr. Willow:

what's free gift that people can find you with?

Natalie:

yes, yes, yes. So, I am going to give everyone something called the Wild Guide, which is something I created for women too, it's like journaling prompts and stories to help you start to recognize the feminine within you. And we'll put links Yeah and you can download that for free and,

Leah:

Cool.

Dr. Willow:

Tell us about your podcast?

Leah:

About your podcast was going to say...

Natalie:

Oh yeah. I have a podcast and Dr. Willow and Leah are on it,

Leah:

Sweet.

Natalie:

woo woo. It's called The Feminine Rebellion, and I interview. Hot as I was going to say hot as F U C K. Can I say that?

Dr. Willow:

Yes!

Natalie:

that Okay. I'm like, I interview hot as fuck women who are on the rise and shifting our collective consciousness. So obviously these two goddesses are on it. So, yeah

Leah:

yeah, Well, thanks. Thanks for part of this this work and celebrating women and supporting them and being all that they can be. So awesome to know you and to be in this world with you. I look forward for deepening with you For sure.

Dr. Willow:

And

Leah:

I'd love for I'd love for you to tell us, we have minutes left. Tell tell us about Rebels Rising. I know that's one

Natalie:

Oh, yes. Yeah. Rebels Rising is one of my babies and it is a place for women who are on the rise in business and want to claim their voice. They are tired of playing small and it is a, I host these small groups of eight weeks and we reclaim our pleasure and our voices and it's delicious and we get out and we scream our work from the mountain tops.

Dr. Willow:

Yeah, Yeah

Natalie:

And it's really so good. Our next round starts in September.

Dr. Willow:

Okay Good to know

Leah:

so y'all are in time for that, so go check it out! Again thanks for being with us!

Natalie:

My deepest, deepest pleasure to be with both of you today. Thank you.

Dr. Willow:

Much love everyone.

Leah:

Love, love, love, love, love.

Announcer:

Now, our favorite part, the dish.

Dr. Willow:

Natalie Frasca. I saying her name with a rolling R.

Leah:

Yeah, good job on the rolling R's. I cannot do a rolling R to save my life. Oh my god. Mouth doesn't work that way, honey. Yeah,

Dr. Willow:

Mmm. I can do that. Some people can't. Genetic. Um, Anyway, Natalie what a pleasure. I'm so glad we found her. She found us. I

Leah:

I know, I feel like she's so tribe. Like, I totally, yeah, like she's a sister from another mister.

Dr. Willow:

totally. I think that was one of the juiciest I don't know, I just really enjoyed it. It just felt really easy and open, and we talked about some really vulnerable stuff. And she shared things on the air she's never shared on the air before, and that's a big deal. Yeah, I talked about

Leah:

I think. Maybe I have. Maybe I've talked about it.

Dr. Willow:

that probably hadn't come out. Yeah, who knows

Leah:

Well, details of your story, like stuff I've never heard before, which was really profound. I think, um, yeah, none of us were expecting this to come through the interview and such an

Dr. Willow:

the interview led us. Yeah!

Leah:

that it revealed itself and showed us what wanted to be shared. Um, and I, and I also, although I'm personally Pro choice as one could assume. Because of my life experiences I I'm not a hater of people who have opposing views as I do I can actually really understand how people come to their you know moral beliefs around the issue. And and I want to kind of Invite a really respectful Respectful, um, differings of opinions, you know, uh, and, and, yeah, I just felt like that was in my heart to share here in the dish.

Dr. Willow:

Yeah,

Leah:

we're all walking different lives.

Dr. Willow:

I know, and I think, you know, because a lot of us have family that have differing opinions. And it's like, well, what are we supposed to do, not love our, our parents, or not love our, you know, whoever, our family, because, uh, or our friends, because we have different opinions. views, political and also health views. I mean, I think that's one of the things for me, from my perspective around being pro choice is sometimes it's a health issue. And if a child is conceived in rape, like, you know, I think that woman deserves a choice. And even if it's not conceived in that way, I still really believe that we, we live in a world now where that's a possibility. And when we didn't, women were aborting anyway, and it was killing them. It was, you know, it was not done. Yeah.

Leah:

Yeah.

Dr. Willow:

So I just think it's, um, we're in such an interesting pinnacle point right now around abortion, where it feels like we've backpedaled and, uh, and there's a lot of, there's a lot of health issues and

Leah:

Well, I don't think there should be legislation on what women's choice to do with their health and their body. I don't think that there should be legislation that has dominion over that. Um, but those are personal views and, uh, and I'm not going to attack anybody who feels differently about that. You know, like, and so that's where I'm, you know, want to shift the system is, is a willingness for people to be, I mean, come with an open mind, come with an open heart. You don't have to agree with someone to respect them. And, and I know that when I've been in cars with pro lifers who are on a rant and I want to charge in and go give them my peace of mind. And I'm glad I've had the awareness, you know, to just sit back and choose to listen. And my only wish is that we could have this conversation with less of a charge that has to go, you're wrong. It's like, well, you're not going to influence anybody if, if you come up, if you've got a rage and anger and, and defensiveness woven into all this it's like let's let's try to have an open mind with each other. Let's be respectful. Let's be compassionate. And let's be willing to be influenced just a little bit.

Dr. Willow:

Yeah, and I think it, you know, if we can really let go of our, our strong hold on what we think is right and wrong, all of us. Like, it's just going to create more peace in the world. The, the this is right and that's

Leah:

that somewhere along the way the middle has gotten lost and everyone is so fucking polarized.Um that it makes you want to avoid the conversation.

Dr. Willow:

Yeah, you don't even want to talk about it, which then creates more, you know, that's how people stay in secrecy for so long and more shame is created and more shame, shame breeds on secrecy and that's what we're trying to do is eradicate that by bringing more conversation forward and an opportunity to say, to, to share, to share what's inside, to speak up. And so I felt like Natalie just did a really great job of exemplify and the way she talks to talk to her teens, her teen girls and read her girl's pussy at 12, 13. I mean, fucking radical, radical mom. Like take, take note moms out there with teen girls or teen boys. I don't know about reading pussy to teen boys. That would be a little uncomfortable for a lot of moms probably, but I'm sure there's another book out there that would be

Leah:

You just give them the book and they can read it

Dr. Willow:

Yeah, there you go. There you go. Oh, a great book for, for teen, uh, any, any parent of teens, two great books, The Male Brain and The Female Brain. You are gonna learn so much. I've said it before and I'll say it again and again, get those books and

Leah:

Remind us the author.

Dr. Willow:

lot. Uh, Louann Brizendine M.D, she's a neuroscientist and she writes these books just so, they're so digestible and you can, you can listen to them on audible, you don't even have to read, and you will learn so much about what your teenager's brain is going through, which is going to give you so much more compassion, um, about the way that they act and the way that they react to the world around them.

Leah:

You know, I just have to say from like a business perspective, I love Natalie's branding. I love the iterations that she's named things.

Dr. Willow:

Rebellion

Leah:

Rising as a program and the Wild Guide and the Feminine Rebellion podcast. I mean, it's just great. It's just, it's a great

Dr. Willow:

She's got, she's still carrying the Collie in her Yeah.

Leah:

working on the graphics, uh, for her, um, for her, uh, interviews. It's got great headshots.

Dr. Willow:

Yeah. She's a beautiful

Leah:

She's just a sassy, fun chick, really. And I love the story between her and her husband.

Dr. Willow:

Oh God.

Leah:

point, divorce lawyers have been called. And then there's a melt with one powerful question.

Dr. Willow:

How do you want to feel?

Leah:

their fucking marriage,

Dr. Willow:

Yeah. Amazing. So it gives me the chills. I love that story. That's so, such a testament to what's possible when we feel like we're stuck in something that we can't get out of. If we just find that one key, put it in the lock, unlock.

Leah:

Have to say, all you listeners out there, if you have a miracle marriage story, would you please write in? We would love to interview you. I would love to do a, like, again, a series on, you know, these long term relationships that overcome hardship and obstacles and found their way back to each other, and how they did that, and why they did that, and where they're at now, because I think we could all use a little more hope when

Dr. Willow:

That's so inspiring. Yeah, absolutely. Alright y'all, enjoy!

Leah:

Love you, Natalie! Bye!

Announcer:

Thanks for tuning in. This episode was hosted by Tantric Sex Master Coach and Positive Psychology Facilitator, Leah Piper, as well as by Chinese and Functional Medicine Doctor and Taoist Sexology Teacher, Dr. Willow Brown. Don't forget, your comments, likes, subscribes, and suggestions matter. Let's realize this new world together.

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Dr. Willow Brown

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Leah Piper

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