The Sex Reimagined Podcast

Dan Powers 3.0: From Virgin to Vixen - One 70 Year Old Woman's Bold Journey of Sexual Self-Discovery | #92

• Leah Piper

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Join us as we chat with three incredible guests: Faythe Huston, a brave woman who embarked on a journey of sexual awakening in her 70s; Dan Powers, a returning SxR sexpret & compassionate surrogate partner; & Deb Azorsky, a wise sex therapist. Together, they paint a vivid picture of how surrogate partner therapy works & the powerful impact it can have. 

EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS:

  • Discover the triadic model of surrogate partner therapy & how it creates a safe, supportive space for exploration
  • Learn how to overcome common challenges & fears when seeking sexual healing
  • Gain insights into building trust & navigating emotions in the therapeutic relationship
  • Understand the role of societal norms, religion, & past experiences in shaping sexual well-being
  • Be inspired by Faythe's story of embracing pleasure & confidently claiming her sexuality in her 70s

EPISODE LINKS *some links below may also be affiliate links 

THE VAGINAL ORGASM MASTERCLASS. Discover how to activate the female Gspot, clitoris, & cervical orgasms. Buy Now. Save 20% Coupon: PODCAST 20

LAST 10x LONGER. If you suffer from premature ejaculation, you are not alone, master 5 techniques to cure this stressful & embarrassing issue once and for all. Buy Now. Save 20% Coupon: PODCAST20.

THE MALE GSPOT & PROSTATE MASTERCLASS. This is for you if… You’ve heard of epic anal orgasms, & you wonder if it’s possible for you too. Buy Now. Save 20% Coupon PODCAST20.

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Leah:

Welcome to the Sex Reimagined Podcast. I'm Leah Piper, your Tantra expert.

Willow:

And I'm Dr. Willow Brown, your Taoist expert here today we have an amazing podcast for you because we interviewed three people plus us five total. It was actually, we did a great job. I'm going to say, so we had, um, on our show. Dan Powers, who we've had before. He is incredible. Um, a surrogate partner therapist. Really, really cool. He's been practicing as a sex coach for almost 20 years. He's got a varied background in a number of different modalities. Tantra, surrogate partner therapy, somatic sex education, sexological body work, erotic blueprint, and so much more. And so he's a wealth of wisdom. And we've had him, you'll, what was it? Episode 35.

Leah:

Check him out.

Willow:

check him out. And then we had his client on with us. One of his surrogate partner clients, Faythe, who was a 70 year old virgin before she started working with Dan. And she just woke up one day and asked herself, What the hell? How did I become a 70 year old virgin? She was raised in a conservative religious family and, um, she was just ready to open up her life to explore her sexuality. So she found Dan and the third person that we had on our call was their therapist. The one and only Deb Azorski, who is a, has a master's in counseling, has studied with wise and knowledgeable elders in the field of sex therapy. And finally, the atlas of sex therapy, it was so cool to talk with all three of them about their process, their journey, and you're going to love this episode. It's very dynamic.

Leah:

Yeah, it's just great to see the triadic model of surrogate sex therapy at play by being able to sit down with the therapist, with the surrogate, and with the client themselves. Deb has been doing this work since 2008 as the psychotherapeutic arm of the triadic model. And, um, it was wonderful to sort of see how the process unfolds. All the things that you can imagine, the anxiety for the client, and then the, the safety that the surrogate provides, and then the processing. That the therapist provides in order to make sure that everything is being paced in In a way that makes sense for all three people. The therapist is there to protect both The surrogate and the client and I just say bravo. So in the spirit of Faythe who really sums up this episode with pleasure is our birthright It is time for you to tune in Turn on and fall in love with Dan, Deb, and Faythe Y'all enjoy.

Willow:

Enjoy.

Speaker:

Welcome to the Sex Reimagined Podcast, where sex is shame free and pleasure forward. Let's get

Speaker 2:

into the show.

Leah:

Welcome Dan, Deb, and Faythe. It's so great to have you on the show.

Deb:

Thank you.

Willow:

Oh, I'm so excited for this interview, y'all. This is gonna be super powerful. So we've interviewed Dan Powers before. we've got one of his clients and her therapist. And Dan and Deb have worked together with, um, they've worked together over the years with other clients as well. And Faythe is our star client. So we're so excited to have you Faythe. It's really a pleasure. Thanks for being with us.

Dan:

Yeah, so I am a surrogate partner, uh, and which we've talked about this before in a previous podcast. So if anybody wants to go back and look at all that, get all the details.

Leah:

Episode 35.

Willow:

Do it. Listen.

Dan:

is that what it was?

Leah:

I am.

Dan:

But yeah, the way as a refresher it works is it works in a triadic model. So you've got the client, a therapist, and the surrogate. We are a surrogate partner, so we are going in as a partner to our client, uh, and going through all the imaginations that we go through with a therapist, which is what Deb's role is in all of this.

Leah:

Yeah. And so I, I guess like finding out the genesis story for you, Faythe of how you found Dan and what propelled you to reach out to him. What was it that you were really investigating within your own sexuality?

Dan:

Besides my ravishing good

Leah:

Yeah.

Faythe:

Yeah, but I didn't

Willow:

charming personality.

Leah:

Yeah.

Faythe:

know that yet. So this could be a whole podcast and more in itself, but um, as I said in my introduction to you, Um, if I were to write a book, the first line would be I was a 70 year old virgin. How the hell did that happen? So about two and a half years ago, actually, this energy started coming up from my unconscious. Little did I know it didn't, it wasn't going to go away. It was, uh, maybe I watched a rom com or something. I don't know, but it went on for days. And I decided it's time to look at this part of my life. I was raised very conservative, church, family, society. And so I just started reading, and looking, and listening, and whatever, and I came across an article on some, I don't remember what it was, but it was about sexuality, and there was a link in there to surrogate partner therapy, and I'd never heard of that. What the hell is this? So I clicked on the link, I started reading it, I thought, who would ever do that? Who would ever do that? Little did I know that six months later I would be doing that. So, so, um, and, and I, I just want to say from the beginning that I look at this whole journey that I've been on through the paradigm of the hero journey. There's a call to adventure, there's the journey, and there's the return. And this call to adventure came to look at my, um, sexual life. And I decided to answer that call. And then, um, I was looking actually for a Tantra massage therapist. And I was looking, asking, asking, asking, and finally somebody gave me Dan's name. And I looked up his website and I thought, well, I don't think he's a massage therapist, but there's some other things here. And so we had our first Zoom call two years ago this month, two years ago this month. I got off of that call and said, hell no. I'm not doing this. But again, the energy would not leave me.

Willow:

I gotta stop you, Faythe. I'm curious, like, what was the hell? Was it fear? Was it, like, overwhelm? What was it that felt resistant?

Faythe:

Well, and I'll just talk about my hesitations, um, and I just would say that some of you may have seen the movie, uh, Tantra, yin, yang, Good luck to you Leo Grand, with Emma Thompson a year and a half ago, and for those of you who haven't, Emma Thompson plays a retired religious education teacher, oh my, uh, whose husband died about three years ago and never had a good, uh, sexual intimate relationship with them and and decided to go find some pleasure. That movie came out just a month after Dan and I started working together. And I thought, somebody's been in my head and made a movie of all my hesitations. So my hesitations were, first of all, you know, where is this going to lead me? What's going to happen here? And so Dan and I had a lot of conversations before we even got together. What three or four or five months later? I don't know. A big question was is am I too old for this? Am I enough? Will I be enough? Is my body going to respond? I've never had a sexual experience and I decided that first of all, I'm gonna have sex before I die. And second of all I want my first experience to be with someone who knows what they're doing Because I think a lot of people their first experience was not so great You So, so my hesitations were around, am I enough? Will I be disappointed in my body? Uh, what if it doesn't respond? What if my family and friends find out? Oh my God. And after this podcast, they just might. I don't know. Um,

Leah:

right.

Faythe:

why am I doing this at my age? What? Why? This is way too old to be doing this. It's too much money. It's too much time commitment. And, um, I don't, when it's over, I don't want to be sad. I don't want to

Leah:

Mm, right.

Faythe:

not what Emma Thompson did in the movie. This is a longer process and, uh, there's a lot of commitment to it on both sides. And so I thought, and we talked about, Dan and I talked about that in the process, you may fall in love. And I don't want to hurt when it's over. That was a long answer to your question.

Willow:

Well, I think of, you know, all of those are really important pieces of why you were resistant at first. Okay, so tell us, go on with the journey. So then what happened?

Faythe:

So then I decided to, well, in the, in the meantime, between talking to Dan the first time and actually deciding to do it, he had suggested maybe a female, um, sexual, sexological body worker. And I did see her twice just to begin the sensate touch, getting in touch with my body. Uh, and then I realized I really need to be working as a heterosexual woman. I need to be working with the male energy. And so that's when I decided to do it. And I thought, okay, well, we'll just do, you know, a few weeks of this.

Leah:

Yeah,

Faythe:

It's not, it's now been a year and a half. So there you go.

Leah:

Right, right, right, right.

Willow:

Well, that's one of the things I love about this model, Dan, that you've spoken about is, is you do it until it's complete, like you could keep, there's no time limit on it. And so, um,

Leah:

Well, isn't there? I actually thought there was a time limit that you only engage in the process for a certain amount of time. No. Okay.

Dan:

No, so the movie The Sessions came out and because it's Hollywood, they said it was a max of six sessions and that's really completely unrealistic when you're working with the emotions of what's going on in a person, you know, the fears, the It's the, you know, getting to sex and, and intimacy and things like that. That's something that builds up over time. Uh, you know, we're not prostitutes that just take off our clothes, have sex and go away. It's a whole process. That's why it's called surrogate partner therapies because we are a partner. So we're creating that relationship. And Faythe and I are in a relationship at this point in time.

Leah:

So then how segueing from, okay, you met Dan, you, you did some preliminary work. You're getting clear about what your resistance is, and then where does Deb come in as the therapist?

Faythe:

Okay, and I would say before I could start working with Dan, now Dan and I talked a lot by Zoom and phone, but until I could actually go and see him, uh, part of this triad is the therapist. And that was a journey in itself, that's a whole other podcast. And um, it needs to be somebody who understands this process. And I just want to say this right here, right now, and I'm going to cry, I know I'm going to cry.

Leah:

tears are always welcome,

Willow:

um,

Faythe:

Deb, I could not have found two more perfect people to walk with me through this journey. Deb and Dan have created such a safe space,

Willow:

what's,

Faythe:

I was scared to death. And, um, I see Deb every week. It is by Zoom, but I see her every week. I will continue to see her until I die. So I had asked Dan, you know, before I was having a hard time finding a therapist and adding that expense to it as well. And Deb so generously Um, provided a space for me to see her at a reduced rate. Uh, but I said to Dan, Oh, I, I've done a lot of therapy. I don't need a therapist. I've done a lot of therapy. Oh yes, you need, you need a therapist in this process. So Dan helped me find Deb and, um, then we could get started.

Deb:

um, I don't actually know the history with IPSA, but it seems to me like the original intention with surrogate partner work was that it would be this triadic model. where there would be a surrogate partner, a therapist, and a client. And I heard it, um, talked about at a conference many, many years ago. And my understanding was that the therapist is there to provide the kind of emotional support, um, to also act as a bridge sometimes between the surrogate partner and the client. Um, things as silly as, uh, I worked with a male client and a female surrogate at one point in time and he was embarrassed to say something about the fact that he thought her breath didn't smell so great. And he was really torn up about it. He didn't want to tell her, he didn't want to hurt her feelings, so he and I processed through that so then he could, again, say to his surrogate partner, it would be really great if you had a tic tac or something of that nature. Um, And, and again, for him, it was about building relationships, so not only was it sexual. But it was also about building emotional connection, because that's a big part of this as well. Faythe didn't have that issue, um, with Dan. Dan has good breath, apparently, and, uh, but that, that's kind of how, that's at its essence how that, how I work in this model.

Willow:

And, and Deb, my understanding from just talking with you and Dan before we pressed record is that you worked with Faythe for, um, some amount of time before you thought that Faythe was ready to begin with Dan. Is that, or did you guys decide together, you and Faythe, or how did that go?

Deb:

mostly I do it because I want to get, I want to get as best a psychological understanding of where the person is as they're coming in, both as a means of, Kind of taking care of the client, but also taking care of Dan. Um, I want to know that the person is pretty grounded. I want to know about sexual trauma. And, and again, Faythe has had a lot of counseling, um, and has a social work background. So kind of has a pretty good understanding of the kind of traumas that anybody might experience. And, um, so it, it's about getting a sense of, Are they emotionally, psychologically a good fit? Um, it's really

Faythe:

if I could say typically, um, the client has, is already working with a therapist, a sex therapist, maybe for even a year or more. And the therapist may suggest, you know, Surgopartner therapy might be a good thing for you. I actually came in the back door. I found Dan first, and then I had to go find a therapist, but it's usually the opposite.

Willow:

hmm.

Leah:

okay.

Deb:

And if I could also add, Faythe, if I remember correctly, um, you went to a therapist or someone you were working with currently who sort of said, Ew, I, I can't do that. I won't do that. So she was met almost immediately with sort of a, a cultural, societal norm about doing this work, which was kind of hands off, I won't do that. And that's not uncommon, sadly.

Leah:

Yeah.

Willow:

Mm.

Leah:

with Dan?

Faythe:

well, um, I met Dan and Deb in Deb's office. That's part of the program, just to get the norms out there. But the first time, and so I knew what was going to happen in terms of, the first appointment is just talking. He was just talking and, um, so I went to his, um, he has a studio space and there's a sitting area with a couch and we're sitting on the couch and we're just talking, giving some history and I'm going to cry again. I look across the room and there is the bed. I look at that bed and I thought, I can see the Emerald City. I can see the Holy Grail and it is mine..

Leah:

Wow.

Faythe:

I deserve this.

Willow:

Powerful.

Faythe:

And I was scared to death. So each session just grew a little more in talking and sensate touch and just becoming comfortable with each other. And again, I just want to say that Dan created such a safe, Safe place to trust, to trust. I didn't have to worry about, oh, does he like me? Or did I say the right thing? You know, when you're on a date,

Willow:

Mm

Faythe:

say the right thing? Or will I, will I see him again? None of that. No, you just take that away.

Leah:

That's nice to have that anxiety removed, that layer. And what a beautiful thing to share. Thank you so much, Faythe. That just, I feel like the vulnerability and like the hope and also like the fear and, and it's so exquisite and just so beautiful. And thank you for sharing that. So, in such a lovely way. Dan, what do you do to help someone feel safe, knowing that this is really new territory?

Willow:

hmm.

Dan:

male. Uh, they come in the room, I, I do a bunch of little things that they're not even aware of. Like I don't sit in front of the door, I give them access to an escape. Whether they're conscious of it or not, or they're going to use it,

Leah:

Interesting,

Dan:

but we go super, super slowly. You know, it's not about, okay, let's get in and let's start taking our clothes off or anything like that. It's, it's a process. You know, there are four pillars to the circuit partner therapy world. And yeah, And the first one is building, repairing foundation. And so that is really just getting to be with the client, starting to build that relationship, starting to nurture where things are going on, telling her about the sandbox. Uh, that she's not going to screw up, that, you know, if she says something that, that may be dangerous in a regular relationship, then that's something that me and Deb are going to notice. And this is why I have a conversation with Deb between sessions also. They'll say, Hey, Faythe came in and, you know, I told her about her breath being bad and, um, she just kind of blew me off. I said, well, screw you. You're, you're an idiot. You know, and I would tell Deb something like that, that she could then work through that with her. Now. She has great breath too, so it's not a problem, but, but, you know, it's, it's the ability for them to start to trust who I am as a person, and that I'm not going to hurt them. A lot of women that are coming to me have deep seated trauma, and, you know, to, to come at them too quickly is going to be sending them, you know, off into the woods somewhere, and, and, You know, they're, they're just not going to be able to, to deal with it. Uh, so we go, go just very, very slowly. Uh, then the next part of it is the whole body, um, sensual connection kind of thing. And with that, what we're doing is starting to introduce an education. We're starting to introduce touch, uh, without being sexual in nature. So it's just, uh, shoulder caress or face caress or, you know, back caress. Something like that. Fully clothed. Uh, and then we start getting into the more sexual aspects of things before finally the clothes. Um, and so that's what I do with her is, um, And all my clients that just go very, very slowly, uh, learn who they are. I mean, we're building a relationship. It's like going on a date. You know, what, what do you like in life? What do I like in life? Who are you as a being? And get to understand them from a really deep perspective.

Leah:

Now, I think I recall from our last interview with you, Dan, that especially in the work that you do with women, a lot of them being older virgins, that there's oftentimes a religious theme, almost sometimes religious trauma. And I'm curious both to hear from Deb and Faythe, it, you know, what, what was it in your past that prevented you from having this sort of sexual maturation process that many people go through culturally right as they meet people and they date and they kiss and they get married and they have kids and this whole Thing that is typical of people's journey. What happened on your journey if anything that stopped those sexual initiations from happening for you? Yeah, I

Faythe:

as I said, I grew up in a very conservative family, church and then our society. And and that carried over into my adult life I was in the church for a number number number of years, but the message was you do things within a box and that is you don't have sex before marriage. And And it's in a certain way if you do get married I would say for myself and I don't want to go too far into this is the male role models in my life were not ones that made me feel confident as a woman. And so I felt like, oh, every guy is going to see me the way these, role models see me. And that never really got worked through, I think. And then

Willow:

how was that? What was the feeling for you of the way that they were perceiving you?

Faythe:

that I was fat and ugly and not, um, attractive to men. Although I think I was, because when I got to college, all these guys were asking me out and I thought, how is this happening? Don't they know what These guys know? So, um, yeah, so it was a double

Willow:

you

Faythe:

message.

Willow:

Feel like you've healed that old messaging and that old,

Faythe:

And, and that, you know, one of the, the, the things I would talk about is what did I learn about myself? And, and what did I, what were my goals actually? And one of my goals was to heal that cultural, societal, familial. And, and it has started, I will say it has started through a lot of tears, through a lot of laughter, through more tears. Um, so yeah, I think it has.

Willow:

Mm. I love that. sexual awakening for everyone, no matter where they start or where they're at on the journey, it's just, it's coming into self-acceptance and self-love for who you are as a human being. It's really beautiful.

Faythe:

And I would say, and Deb, you can speak to this, you know, Deb has helped me, um, make that box so much bigger in how I see the world and expand my view of what is sexuality? What's okay. What's not okay. You know, I still, I, as I said, I come from a conservative family and I still have conservative members of that family who don't know any of this. None of this. So, I don't know, Deb, if you want to speak to any of that.

Deb:

Well, I think really it's been the relationship between Faythe and I. You know, as she, as you could tell from the beginning with Faythe when you started talking, she has this very passionate seeker inside of her. And sort of like, she stepped outside that box and then it was like a child with wide eyes about what's this and what's that and who am I in relationship to that. And oh, could I do that? And then if she had an idea about something she wanted to do, she was researching. She's an amazing researcher, and she was, and then she would have the courage to bring it to Dan, or to me, or to talk about. Her curiosity about it. And as she began to feel safer and safer and safer with Dan, all of the possibilities and the options came up as, as something you could speak to, Faythe. So it was, I mean, you took the first step out of the box and then for sure, like a child, you know, a child who's just in wonder about the world and what's out there. We, Faythe and I were talking yesterday about this sort of, she is a little bit in kind of an adolescent phase. Right now, as a 71 year old, she's sort of like, Okay, where can I go? Who can I do it with? What can I do? I mean, it's, you know, it's um, I have said at different times in my career that sometimes I think sex is wasted on the young. Because if we all had that kind of bright, shiny energy about the, all the possibilities of what we could do,

Willow:

Yeah.

Deb:

You know, we may all be still having adolescent sex, even as older people, but

Willow:

Take that curiosity all the way to the grave, huh? Yeah.

Deb:

you know, with a lot more maturity and willingness and understanding of our own self boundaries

Willow:

And I think confidence, too. So I'm curious, Faythe, just based on something Deb just said, are you currently dating other people, or where are you at on

Faythe:

Um, not, not at the moment, but, um, there are possibilities. I had, I, this last year, last year, we're in January, I did do, uh, three online dating sites. It was pretty abysmal, I have to say, so that didn't work out so well, and as, and as Deb said, for me, it's, I want to meet someone organically. We all do, I suppose, and so that's what I'm hoping for.

Willow:

Mm hmm.

Leah:

And so I'm curious, both Dan and Deb, like, as you are walking with someone on this journey, what's your pace like? Are you just following their pace? Are you nudging them a little bit further along? What's that sort of line between having them lead themselves versus you leading them? I imagine it's kind of a mix.

Dan:

Do you want to go, Deb, or me?

Deb:

Well, I could just say that one of the things when we were talking about, um, you know, The Dan's ability to build safety, one of the ways that I think he built a lot of safety for Faythe was she was a bit jonesan for the bed, as you heard, the Holy Grail, the Emerald City, and Dan's container was sort of, no, we're not going there yet. No, we're not ready yet. So I believe. That that built so much trust for Faythe that he, with grace and kindness, was going to hold this really beautiful boundary that he was not going to let Faythe sort of blow through it. So in that way, I think maybe we both worked at learning how to build trust in Dan and the curriculum, the SPT curriculum, and that it is structured for a reason. And really that even as much as Faythe wanted to be lined for the bed, that wasn't going to happen. All these other pieces were really important. So that, it was kind of the opposite of what you're talking about, Leah.

Leah:

Yeah, I could just see how much Faythe that would put into the experience. Um, yeah. So Dan, are you following a protocol curriculum? How do you kind of create this experience?

Dan:

Yeah, there's a very structured process that we follow as surrogates, and we're all, let me rephrase that, there are a number of people who are taught through the IPSA model, and there's a lot of people that are borrowing from that to, to, Bring other surrogates into the world, but it

Willow:

IPSA is real quick.

Dan:

says the International Professional Surrogates Association, and you can find that at ipsa.us, the short, easy way, but it's, they have a process that was designed back in the 70s with Masters and Johnson, and if you watch the Masters and Johnson show on HBO or whatever it was, they brought surrogates in there, but they weren't, they weren't portrayed in that show like it is that, Um, in fact, what actually has happened is there's a very structured process that we go through. The client, myself, and the therapist are all looking at what are the next steps. So, Faythe wanted to just jump to the bed right at the very beginning. We're like, no, no, no, we're going to structure it this way. I talk with Deb and say, okay, Deb, We've done this, the next step is this. Do you think that we're prepared to move forward? And then of course we talk to Faythe about that too, because she could always say, you know, no, I'm not there yet. And of course that usually comes up when we're getting closer to more sexual intimacy or things like that. Um, and then later on in the process, when we've actually gone through all of the really steps that are there, then it's kind of my prerogative to throw things out. So Faythe would come to me and say, You know, it's thinking about this, this, or this, or I'm asking her to think about different things to try. Things that she may have seen on a movie or talked with some friends about or even talked with Deb about. You know, it's like, bring it up, ask me to try this, or I would present some things to her. Uh, and say, hey, you know, have you ever watched porn before? Oh my God, no. Like, well, let's watch some porn and, and just see what's there. And so we try it and, you know, and it's, again, it's a sandbox. So. We try something and it doesn't work? Meh. We, we, you know, slough it off and move on to the next thing.

Faythe:

I would say that I had, well, in the movie, Emma Thompson had a list that she wanted to accomplish of about four or five things. I had about 25 to 30 things, so I had a list.

Willow:

list? Are you getting them checked off? That's a

Leah:

you comfortable sharing what some of those items are on the list?

Faythe:

Well, I would say, um, just as in terms of my goals that I had, one was, as we just talked about, moving past the societal cultural norms that we have. I wanted, first of all, to have sexual experiences. I wanted to know the basics of lovemaking. I wanted to learn how to be more vulnerable and to, um, have confidence in intimacy, in being intimate with a man. Because I never had been. Never had been. Um, here was a big one. I wanted to know what my body was capable of erotically.

Leah:

Ah.

Faythe:

to know and now I know.

Leah:

And

Faythe:

So that's a wonderful thing. That's a wonderful thing.

Willow:

Yeah. Now how has that changed your confidence like in other areas of your life?

Faythe:

I think that the big word for me is pleasure. And that's why, one reason I'm doing this podcast, I want people to know to know and particularly maybe older women. You can have pleasure and you can have confidence in your body. You know, at the end of the, I just have to read this, at the end of the Leo Grand movie, Emma Thompson's character is speaking and she says, it's a very powerful thing, sexual fulfillment. It makes you feel invincible. I have felt more alive and more powerful in this last month, for me a year and a half, than I can ever remember. Pleasure is a wonderful thing, something we should all have. And so, I think it's, it's given me a confidence to go out there and tell people, this may not be the way you do it, but find some pleasure in your life, some way to have pleasure. So, um, you know, my list, you talk about my list, I could, I have it right here, I could read it, but anyway, Uh, it's all the, the sexual things, you know, just to, I'll just say this, just taking a shower together. I said, I want to do that. I want, and the thing is, I did not want to enter this with people saying, Oh, isn't this sweet? Here's an old woman who wants to have sex. I didn't want that to happen and I didn't want to be an anomaly.

Willow:

Mm,

Faythe:

not want to be an anomaly and most of the things on my list most people have experienced but I hadn't. So I wanted to be normal. I felt normal.

Dan:

I would argue with you, there are some things on your list that many women have not obtained.

Willow:

mm.

Dan:

Multiple orgasms, full body orgasms.

Willow:

Yeah, that's true. Many women have not had that experience. Mm hmm. All ages.

Dan:

This is one of the things that I was talking to her about too, is that As she moves forward, she's going to have more knowledge about her body and sexuality than probably most men, even at her age. Uh, you know, cause she just understands it more. I, I'm teaching her about the science behind it, the, you know, what's going on. We're trying and experiencing different things. And there's a lot of people out there that just haven't and just don't know what's going on. Faythe knows that. Uh, I actually have a, another former client of Deb's and mine that. She is doing some chemo stuff right now and she told me that her doctors were super impressed by how much she is aware of her body and most clients aren't.

Willow:

mmm, yeah,

Leah:

there's like another place where it rolls into different sectors of our life, different sectors of our health. Being connected to our body in a sensual way, you know, as you were, as all of you have been speaking, I keep on having this thought arise, which is Man, what would our sexual lives look like if we worked with a surrogate and a therapist? When we're coming of age

Willow:

the get

Leah:

you know, to get all this beautiful, um, more accurate information about boundaries, about consent, about desire, permission, safety, exploration, shame free conversations about desire and, and, and what we're maybe didn't know to look at. And now we can. I mean, I just think about the sex lives

Willow:

I know,

Leah:

are

Willow:

sexual journey.

Deb:

that, that's what happened to me the first time I was at a presentation of surrogate partner work. The first thing I thought was, I wish that had been my experience. yes, absolutely. Instead, we have these first experiences that then we have to like undo to find our own truth at, at, you know, instead of starting in this really beautiful place.

Leah:

Yeah, so

Faythe:

why I said I wanted my first experience to be with someone who knew what they were doing to learn it all the right way and not fumble and grope and whatever, whatever. You know, just slowly learn it the right way,

Willow:

Yeah. So, so Dan, I'm curious how you're kind of guiding Faythe or coaching her or, you know, helping her and supporting her in going out into a sea where there is, so there's a lot of people who are not well educated, like she's, she's gonna be the one educating them. So how, how are you supporting her in that way?

Dan:

I'm, I'm really not. Uh, I think that's more Deb than me. I mean, I certainly talk about different things and, and you know, this was one of the funny things that came up about it cause she started getting to the online dating. Well, I have no experience with that. So I started saying, Oh, well you should try this. She goes, well, I did that. And it didn't work. Well, then just try this. Yeah, I tried that too. That didn't work either. Well, don't ask me. I've never done that before. You know, so I don't really know anything about it, but. You know, I, I talk about my experiences. I, you know, I'm trying to share everything that I can with her, and you know, she presents something to me. I'll tell you say this is my response to that Here's how I would respond to that And you are going to have to educate the guys that you're going to be with They aren't going to know one of the biggest things I think is Asking for what she wants, she has gotten so good. We were originally going to terminate, terminate is such a bad word, but you know, we were going to complete our work together probably about six months ago. And I said, okay, well here's what it looks like. You know, we've got a closing session that we do that's fully clothed and we're just going to have conversations. And she said, okay. She wasn't happy. And she came back the next week and said, you know, no. I want something more. I want this, this, this, and this to be accomplished before we're completed. Like, oh, we'll talk to Deb about that, and as long as she's okay with it, then let's move forward with it. And we did.

Leah:

So,

Dan:

I think, is the one who's going to be helping her to move forward in real, real relationships.

Willow:

Not surrogate,

Leah:

yeah, so Faythe, I'm curious, like, because I think one of the things that arises, certainly arised for you in the beginning of this, is attachment and, and not wanting to have a broken heart by the end of this experience. So how has the journey of attachment and then falling in love and holding all of this sort of gently been like for you? Because I imagine that would be a really difficult part of the journey for many people.

Willow:

Knowing that it's going to end at some point,

Faythe:

right? So I'm in the heartbreak stage right now,

Willow:

Mm,

Faythe:

just putting that out there. Um, we are ending actually next week and, um, Deb is helping me with that. So I, from the very beginning, uh, before I even met, uh, even the, from the first time I met with Dan, I said, I'm not sure I want to do this because I don't want to hurt, you When it's over. And what he said to me was every relationship ends. Every. relationship ends one way or the other. So it's not forever. So I had to, you know, up my courage, pull up my vulnerability and say, I'm going to do this anyway, even though I know it's going to hurt. And as Deb has so, uh, beautifully helped me and continues to help me through this is seeing it, what do I have any regrets? None. I don't, even though I know there's Would be pain and there is and there's sadness. Look what I've learned. Look what I've learned about myself. In fact, I was just making a list of it. I am worthy. Pleasure is my birthright. I deserve this. I deserve pleasure. Look at all I would have missed. So yes, you know, there's sadness and pain, but it's been a huge, huge learning experience and I don't think I'd have it any other way. I would do it again. I would do it again.

Willow:

Oh, it's so inspiring, Faythe, especially for anyone going through any heartbreak right now. Because there's so much to be gleaned from those deeper times where we're looking at the

Dan:

Well, and another thing that's in there is that, We actually model a, a great breakup, right? You know, we don't hate each other. We're not at odds with each other. We're not shooting barbs at each other.

Willow:

It's

Dan:

You know, for me, my ethics say that I can have no contact with her for six months after our terminating session. That doesn't mean that we can't be friends in the future. And in fact, I'm friends with some of my clients, you know, former clients, uh, From years ago. So it's not completely over and, you know, now she has a way. It's like, look, this just isn't working in a future relationship or we're moving off in different directions, which is really what's happening here. Now Faythe is ready to launch. She's ready to go off on her own and teaching her to fish. I'm not just giving her fish and giving her experience. I'm teaching her how she can be out there getting her own relationships on her own.

Willow:

Yeah, so beautiful. So I want to be aware of our time frame today. And, um, I just want to ask Faythe if there's any, any final words of wisdom that you would leave any, anyone out there, male, female, anyone in between who's looking for, um, education and a sexual experience with somebody who really knows how to hold and knows what they're doing.

Faythe:

Well, I would recommend it to anyone who has either little or no sexual experience or has had trauma, sexual trauma, uh, who has pain with sex. Fortunately, I did not have that. Um, you know, to seek this out. Um, you know, not only have I learned a lot, but it's been playful. I've had so much fun this last year and a half. So much fun. And so, you know, I just would recommend it to anybody. I, I, I, I said to a group recently that I was telling my story to that because the safe space was created, So beautifully, both with Deb and with Dan. That I not only found parts of myself, I found myself. And I found that space where there's no encumbrances, there's no doubts, there's no fear, there's just total peace and total bliss. And I just hope people can find that. I hope they can, in whatever way. It doesn't have to be this way, whatever way. So, I don't know. That's my sermon.

Willow:

Beautiful. I love it. And Dan and Deb, can you tell us how people can find you?

Dan:

You want to go first, Deb?

Deb:

Um, sure. Um, I mean, I'm Google able. You can

Willow:

Google able.

Deb:

name, and, and I've been a sex therapist for 20 plus years, and I don't, I welcome anyone who's interested in this,

Willow:

So, Deb Azorski. A Z O R S K Y.

Leah:

Yeah. And we'll

Deb:

My, my website is www.CouplesTherapistBoulder.com, but you can just Google, use my name, and, and you can find me.

Leah:

Yeah. We'll have, we'll have some links in the show notes, too.

Dan:

And then to find me, uh, I'm at www.PleasureEngineering.com, uh, or you can find me indirectly through IPSA, so www.IPSA.Us, International Professional Surgical Association, for people who are interested in surgical partner therapy, and it works with cisgender, heterosexual women, men, and transgender women. Gay, trans, all that, uh, you know, we have therapists that are there to support that. Uh, so go to them and, and they have a person that you can talk to, a referral agent, if you will, that will talk to you and find out what it is you're looking for and match you with a surrogate and potentially a therapist if you don't have one already as well.

Willow:

Awesome.

Leah:

Yeah, I, if I can just, you know, close it with just one, one final question with Faythe, and that is, what do you know now that you wish you would have known that you could share with someone today? As you embarked on this journey in the beginning.

Faythe:

Do you mean what do I know about the process or about myself?

Leah:

like, it's more just like, what do you think their heart needs to know? Where do you think that they're like, that place that kind of puts us in a stop mode? What is one thing that you could say being in this position? Having been, being able to like, look back and go, I wish I would have known that in the beginning of my journey. Is there anything?

Faythe:

A couple things. I didn't expect this process to be so life changing. I was not anticipating that. And I look at things pretty carefully. But I wasn't expecting that. I think the other thing is what I said before, that pleasure is our birthright. And pleasure is such a negative word in a lot of spheres. When I was growing up, we didn't hear about that. But pleasure is our birthright. We deserve that. And when I turned 70, I said, this is the decade of pleasure, not the year of pleasure. It is the decade of pleasure. And I know in the Bible, it says we are put on this earth to toil. And I said, no more toiling, no more toiling. This is about pleasure.

Leah:

Well, that's what we should call this episode. This is pleasure is your birthright, everybody. And it brings us a sense of aliveness. So may your day be pleasure filled for all of our listeners and for each of our sexperts today. Thank you so much for being with us.

Deb:

Thank you.

Dan:

Thanks for having us.

Faythe:

Thank you.

Leah:

All right, you can get more on the show notes and be sure to tune in for The Dish, where Dr. Willow and I will hash it all out. Love, love, love, love.

Now, our favorite part, the dish.

Leah:

It's dish time! And we are talking about surrogate partner therapy. We

Willow:

Dishalicious. Oh my God. I love,

Leah:

people on.

Willow:

I love talking with Dan. I think it's like one of the most fascinating things. Like there's definitely a part of me that's like, I want to become a circuit partner therapist. I feel like you and I kind of already do that to some degree. I mean, when I, when I work with a client longterm, maybe it's not the same model exactly, but, um, you know, you work with a client for over a year and it's like, you have a relationship with that person. Um, so.

Leah:

Yeah.

Willow:

It's so powerful. Or even, you know, three months, four months, long periods of time. It's amazing. When you dive deep with one, um, With one sexpert in the world, one who does hands on and, um, therapy or coaching at the same time, I think that, uh, you can really dig into your own sexual awakening and exploration in a, in such a profound way.

Leah:

Yeah, I felt really, it was really great to have both the therapist and the client on this episode, unlike our first episode learning about um, surrogate partner therapy with Dan. Um, and I really encourage people to go back to episode 35 and listen to that because it's fascinating and we really got into some more intricate areas of the process. Um, and especially like understanding the difference between that and sex surrogacy, which is different. Um, And just like the full range of like what's on the menu. What I really thought was awesome about this part of the story is being able to hear what more about the therapist role and then hearing from Fyathe, someone who's actually been through the journey. And I was just, I was just tickled when she talked about like, what was like the Emerald Road or that, you know, the bed and like, she could see the,

Willow:

The chalice. The chalice.

Leah:

yes. And, and, um, And to just feel, you can feel energetically the awakening of someone who's coming alive and and her message about pleasure really touched me because as I keep experiencing new levels of pleasure in my own life. What keeps coming to me is like this really beautiful Experience of feeling alive. I think sometimes we just go through the monotony of life, day in and day out, making food and go doing errands and going to your job and kind of having the same conversations with people, you know, throughout the day, day in, day out, and then to kind of step into Sexual aliveness. To have experiences, even with like a good meal or a great glass of wine and really being in the present moment of the pleasure that it's providing you, there is something connected to like the fullness of gratitude arises. I mean, just last night, Matt and I were, it's cold, right? And we slip into the hot tub. And you can't help but go, fuck, I am so grateful for this hot water right now. And it's so pleasurable and it's so pleasing and it just brings gratitude right to the surface. It brings aliveness right to the surface. So I keep on being struck with that sensation and that life experience and how beautiful it is to be a human being, to have those experiences of pleasure that give us that gift.

Willow:

Yeah, pleasure is really a pathway to, um, Who you're becoming. I feel like what I, what I witnessed people do when they're in the throes of rapture, they're in the throes of, of sexual ecstasy, or they're in the, you know, the moment of stepping into something they've never experienced before. I think it's like, we're, we're pioneering ourselves into new, um, you know, landscapes of what's possible for our bodies. And. New neural pathways are being laid down between the brain, the heart, the gut, and the genitals in that moment. And so it's like we become some somebody more. We become more of ourselves and in that process we let go of the pieces of ourselves that are stuck in those monotony ways. You know, it's like we have to release those, those parts that, that are, you know, You know, the complainer and the victim and those, those pieces so that we can actually transcend and step into more and more pleasure. If we're going to increase our capacity for pleasure, and we're going to open up our body and our lives to experience more than we ever even knew was possible, more than we ever could have imagined, then we have to let these old parts of us go. We have to let them die.

Leah:

And we have to like be, um, proactive. You know, we can wait around and wait for pleasure to bestow its gifts on us. Or we can say, you know, I'm going to seek pleasure. I'm going to have a healthy relationship to pleasure. I'm going to make pleasure a vital nutrient in my day to day life because I do too. I mean, and studies show now a vital nutrient because studies show that it increases our longevity. It helps us live longer. It's good for our immune system. It's, it's good for our, our outlook on

Willow:

our heart, our heart rate, like

Leah:

our heart health,

Willow:

Inclusive. Yeah

Leah:

our sleep. We get better sleep all around better health and wellbeing. And I think even just perspective and outlook on life. Our attitude is improved when we are, um, You know, pleasure positive and, and it's sad to me, you know, just hearing, you know, Fyathe talk about and I think this was also true of my childhood and sort of religious fundamental culture was pleasure was seen as bad and something to be guilty over and so and it was selfish and, you know, it was much, um, you were a much better person if you sacrificed, you know,

Willow:

Yes, if you suffered

Leah:

if yes, to be long suffering. So to have her say, I'm ending toiling,

Willow:

Yeah, I love that. That was great. No more toiling. Pleasure. This is the decade of pleasure.

Leah:

that's right. And fuck it, that's right, she's like, it's not just the Year of Pleasure, this is the Decade of

Willow:

Yeah,

Leah:

and I just, you know, I'm in the stands cheering her on and cheering all of us on to have decades upon decades of glorious pleasure and, and to hold it with, you know, a sense of, of healthiness because Because I think some people, I mean, the shadow side of everything, right? Is, is we can take something like pleasure and we can abuse it to the degree that it becomes a, where we hide and it becomes a place where we actually are more numb than we are alive. And so like knowing how to hold, you know, all of this in a healthy way, I think is what the partner surrogate therapy is, is really providing. Um, it's giving this a structure and, and, you know, just to, you know, to echo what was already said on the episode about, wow, what would sex be like if we were all given a better education. If there was, you know, I think what's cool about this is sure. You could just hire somebody to kind of initiate, initiate you sexually. But the fact that there's a therapist involved, I think helps keep everybody. Um, healthy. Not just safe, but healthy, you

Willow:

Yeah, it's definitely a more holistic approach to, um, working with a sexual therapist. You know, I, I always love it when I have, like, long term clients that I'm working with hands on who have therapists as well. I actually just started working with, um, somebody who I am now in contact with the therapist. So that feels really, you know, it feels so holistic and, and it's reminiscent of, you know, the way that I've always worked. Like I, I'll work with one person doing acupuncture and Chinese medicine, but I'll be talking with their MD, you know, at the same time. And so I just think that we can support individuals so much more holistically when we are in conversation with other people who are other professionals who are supporting them as well.

Leah:

Which is why it's sort of a shame that there are so many therapists out there still who would frown upon this kind of therapeutic approach.

Willow:

I know. That was an interesting piece of this conversation where she, she mentioned, Oh, I had a therapist, but they kind of like, you know, poo pooed the idea. It just went, ew, like through their own judgment. Obviously that person needs a little bit of therapy around sexuality on their own, you know?

Leah:

Yeah, so, well, this was, this was fun and I, I think we did a great job with having so

Willow:

five people on one podcast. We did good. Yeah.

Leah:

Yeah, we're, I think we're getting better at this. This is very cool. All right, y'all have a fantastic

Willow:

Ciao. Much

Leah:

your day be filled with outrageous pleasure.

Speaker 3:

Thanks for tuning in. This episode was hosted by Tantric Sex Master Coach and Positive Psychology Facilitator, Leah Piper, as well as by Chinese and Functional Medicine Doctor and Taoist Sexology Teacher, Dr. Willow Brown. Don't forget, your comments, likes, subscribes, and suggestions matter. Let's realize this new world together.

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Dr. Willow Brown

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Leah Piper

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