Rabbi Mordechai Liebling 0:08
When you can share what breaks your heart, no matter what situation you're in, that's what builds the strongest ties with people.
Dwight Dunston 0:32
You're listening to The Seed: Conversations for Radical Hope. A Pendle Hill podcast where Quakers and other seekers come together to explore visions of the world that is growing up through the cracks of our broken system. I'm your host, Dwight Dunston. This season, we're exploring what spiritual alignment means, in this moment of escalating social and political upheaval and violence. How do we cultivate discernment to stay the course and stay connected to our leadings? How are we being called to transform ourselves and our communities to break down systems of oppression and embody new ways of being? Our guest today is Rabbi Mordechai Liebling. Rabbi Mordechai is a member of Rabbis for Ceasefire and is the Senior Advisor for POWER Interfaith, the largest faith based community organizing group in Pennsylvania. Prior to POWER, he founded and directed the Social Justice Organizing Program at the Reconstructionist Rabbinical College, and was co founder of T’ruah, the Rabbinic Call for Human Rights. He's also served with Jewish Funds for Justice, now known as Bend the Arc in the Jewish Reconstructionist Federation. Rabbi Mordechai leads workshops on The Work that Reconnects, a framework developed by Joanna Macy, and also on race, anti semitism and Christian hegemony.
Dwight Dunston 2:03
What a honor and a joy to be here today with you, Rabbi Mordechai Liebling. As I just settle into the connection with you, I can just really feel your your presence, your voice, your spirit and and I'm so excited for what will unfold in our our time together here today. Yeah, I feel a tenderness, too, and just and being in the space with you today. So thank you for joining us here on The Seed.
Rabbi Mordechai Liebling 2:34
Thank you for having me. It does feel very special to be here with you right now so I feel, just feel very blessed at this moment that we can do this.
Dwight Dunston 2:43
Yeah. Rabbi Mordecai, I'm curious, what's what's it like being you today?
Rabbi Mordechai Liebling 2:49
Well, today is not the best day. I happen to be on the executive committee of a board of directors of a national organization that's in the midst of a crisis. So on the phone emergency meeting this, emergency meeting that, the entire week. And more meetings later today, so it's not been the best of weeks. But you know, it kinda comes with the territory.
Dwight Dunston 3:16
Yeah, yeah. No, thank you for answering it truthfully, as folks often do. I'm curious how you are pulling on wisdoms from things you've learned in the past to, to this moment to support you to support the communities that you're a part of?
Rabbi Mordechai Liebling 3:36
Well, sure, thanks. Just to be transparent. I'm 75 years old and began began my life as an as an organizer activist during the war in Vietnam, so I was 18 years old, 17 years old when I started. So I've been at this for a long time. You know, I certainly remember a moment, you know, during when we were fighting the war in Vietnam that, you know, it certainly seemed like we were gonna get nowhere. The Nixon administration was pretty awful. And, you know, the cops could be pretty mean. We definitely spent a lot of time in the streets facing cops who were driving in full riot gear, and were trying to intimidate us as much as they possibly could. For a time in the 1970s I was the only white person and the only Jewish person in a 10 person collective that was doing anti racist community organizing work in the neighborhood in Boston, during the Boston busing crisis when there was a lot of overt racism. And what I learned is, you stay strong by sharing your pain with each other, that there is nothing that builds solidarity more than sharing your pain and sharing your fears with each other. That is an old Hasidic saying that you don't know somebody until you know what their pain is, you don't know what breaks their heart. When you can share what breaks your heart, no matter what situation you're in, that's what builds the strongest ties with people. Joanna Macy, who's been a very important teacher for me, Joanna has this cycle, which she believes we go through all the time. And I have found that very useful that we begin with gratitude, we begin with what we are grateful for, grateful to be alive, grateful about the universe, grateful about creation, grateful about the people who are alive. So we have to, we have to root ourselves in gratitude. If there is one thing that is in common with every faith tradition in the world is the cultivation of gratitude. We might not agree on anything else. But every faith tradition begins with the cultivation of gratitude. So we begin with gratitude and in that space of our hearts full and open and grateful, we allow the pain to arise, not blame ourselves, and have compassion for ourselves and have compassion for the people around us for that pain. And then if we allow that pain to do its work, we know that physiologically, grief and tears opens our neurological systems, that it's physiological, that when we express our grief, our body chemistry actually changes. Different neural pathways open up, and then we can begin to think anew. Joanna calls it as seeing with new old eyes, we can see different possibilities. And from that place of seeing different possibilities, we begin to make plans and we talk about going forth. What are the plans that we want to make? What are the resources that we have? Who are our allies? What is it that we have in our toolkit to help us go forth? One of the things about grief is people are afraid of it. The way you can help people with that is by creating a strong container. So whether that container is a worship service, or a workshop, the ability for the people who are leading it, to create a place where people can feel safe in that moment, that their grief will be contained, that nobody will attack them for it, that there is a holder for that grief, that allows people to express it more. Going through that cycle of gratitude, grief, seeing with new eyes, going forth, and knowing that that's possible helps a lot. A friend of mine and Jewish thinker named Michael Lerner, who's whose definition of God is "God is the possibility of possibility."
Dwight Dunston 7:47
Part of how I see the role of, of clergy, maybe in some forms of Quakerism. There's clergy in the same way that there's Rabbis or Imams or Preachers, but but I feel like clergy to some extent, role is to hold down that possibility of a possibility.
Rabbi Mordechai Liebling 8:05
It is the role of a clergy person in organizing is to bring love into the picture. You know, and that what we do is done not out of anger, but out of love. I've been privileged to spend some time with the late Congressman John Lewis, and people who taught him like Vincent Harding and, and other black civil rights leaders who come from a faith tradition. And you know what I've seen from those folks is that you come from a place of love, that place in our hearts, that's important that we have to key into. I was at Standing Rock during their work there to stop the Keystone Pipeline, and the elders there, everything we did was in ceremony was that mindset. I remember one particular day we were doing a ritual outside and police came down and there's National Guard in full riot gear. There were tanks. It was crazy, crazy stuff. It was such a militarization. The elders stayed in ceremony that was their direction to us. We're here we are in ceremony and we are not being reactive. We are not being angry. Our hearts are open. We love the land. We're connected to the land, we're connected to each other. We're connected to the Divine Spirit. That is the way we are acting. Just so happens Monday and Tuesday I was in New York City as part of a group of Rabbis for Ceasefire. We bought tour tickets and, 40 of us, and went inside where the balcony of the Security Council as the Security Council was in session. And we told our tour guide that we were wanting a group photo. And the tour guide said "fine, have a group photo" so we assembled for the group photo. And then we had pre-arranged and practiced, rehearsed the whole thing and one of our, one of the rabbis who took out a shofar and blew the shofar the ram's horn. All of us, all of a sudden took out our prayer shawls and put on our prayer shawls and started singing. And we did a prayer service right, right in the UN.
Dwight Dunston 10:11
Wow, wow.
Rabbi Mordechai Liebling 10:13
But my intention the whole time was I am in I am in ceremony that it was like what I learned from the elders at Standing Rock, was that I was going to do this with that intent that my intent, my my focus, for that whole time was I am doing this in prayer, in ritual, in ceremony, to be present to what is going on, and to know why I'm doing this out of love and concern.
Dwight Dunston 10:42
Sounds like ceremony helped you to stay present to that love that you mentioned to this higher purpose. To the people around you, the people that you were with, right? In both cases, you mentioned being in community doing ceremony. That's, and that's so so powerful. Wow. Wow. I'm curious if there's any other stories that come to mind as you think about other moments where maybe you've engaged in a dropping down in a in an intense moment, to that place of love, that keeping yourself pure connected to a higher purpose, even in the midst of, of so much swirling.
Rabbi Mordechai Liebling 11:23
One moment that comes to mind was a hard moment. I was in Charlottesville in 2017 when the alt right came to march, and the folks in Charlottesville put out a call for clergy to come down. You know, at one point, we were about 50 clergy lined up in the line, and we had two or three feet in front of us then Neo Nazis. And two or three feet behind us were antifa. And they were yelling at each other. And it was clear that violence was about to break out. And we sort of had to leave that space standing in between them. A little while later, is when the car drove down the road and a woman was killed, and other people were wounded. And we, we had to go out there essentially and become street chaplains. We had to go out there and you know and minister to the folks who are out in the streets who had witnessed what happened who you know, were just terrified, upset. After a while it was time to re gather the clergy and they were asking me if I would gather folks. We had to recenter in our purpose, we had to recenter on our connection to each other, we had to recenter an entire connection to the Divine to remind us that that's where we were coming from. And that's what that's what we were about. In that moment of tragedy, in the face of literally death and in that face or folks being wounded. We had to make that connection. We had to be able to say "Yes, this is who we are. This is what this is. This is why we're here."
Dwight Dunston 12:55
There was something about your steadfastness your groundedness to reconnect the group to their individual values and purpose for showing up not bypassing the the grief that folks are feeling but inviting that into alongside this other truth.
Rabbi Mordechai Liebling 13:11
Yeah.
Dwight Dunston 13:12
We are here we are connected. We have community. The grief and just the all of that, yeah, made me quite emotional in just that sharing, and I thank you for that.
Dwight Dunston 13:46
We see so much anger on many sides. This rise we see in anti semitism and Islamophobia. This hatred, this rage, this anger that we see there's a history of rage and hate and anger towards these groups. And there's a potential for them to consume us. You know?
Rabbi Mordechai Liebling 14:07
A lot of Jewish, generational intergenerational trauma was kicked off by Hamas killing 1200 civilians and clearly engaging in sexual violence and you know acts of what are called terrorism and that kicked off not surprisingly, a lot of trauma in the Jewish community and the government of Israel manipulates that trauma, tries to use that trauma to justify its actions and plays that in the Jewish community. Helping people to understand what a traumatic response is and how people are still acting out of that is an important piece of this, at least on a pastoral level, who are responding to this. And on a political level of responding to it, it's been important to be out there in public. It's been a very difficult moment in the in the Jewish community. Advocating for a ceasefire is very much the, unfortunately the minority position that seems that in the Jewish community these days, certainly among rabbis, and Jewish institutions, they have not yet come to a place of understanding that a ceasefire is necessary. So a piece of this, you know, has been learning how to listen to the folks who are still not able to support a ceasefire and listen, it's about listening to their their fear.
Rabbi Mordechai Liebling 15:44
Each of my parents lost their parents and their siblings during the Holocaust. They were, quote, soul survivors in their large extended families. So I saw and grew up with my parents expressing grief. They missed their families, their families were killed. And they also expressed joy and gratitude. I didn't have any relatives, or outside my parents really, I grew up in a really a community of Holocaust survivors, of my parents' friends and their kids. Even though they had all lived through absolute devastation, and grief and horror, they knew how to party. They celebrated like, they did not allow their experience to rob them of the ability to celebrate what could be celebrated. They would have a good time. They would celebrate, they would party they would sing, they would have fun. They did it together, they gave each other strength. So I witnessed growing up, what community can do to hold people, and that no matter what your experience is, the possibility of celebrating life and what you have is there. No matter what greif, I mean, they lost their parents, their sister, their brother, I mean, they lived in hiding in the worst conditions, and they could celebrate. They knew that life was precious. I mean, one of the things I guess they learned is the preciousness of life. Certainly a lot of survivors ended up being depressed. I saw that as well. Thankfully, my parents you know and their friends, they they knew that it was important to celebrate each other, support each other and have fun. That was a way that that helped you survive, that was a way to say "We won. They didn't get us, we won, we're alive, and we're going to celebrate." That helped me understand that you could hold grief and joy at the same time. When our hearts are big enough to hold the joy and the grief in that same moment. That was a transcendent moment.
Dwight Dunston 18:19
I would love to hear more about your work and experience and the learnings over the last few months specifically working with other rabbis and clergy around a ceasefire in Gaza. Lessons that that you've learned, both in the organizing space, but also it feels like this powerful spiritual moment and tuning into what God sphere the universe is calling us to there's this potential for all of us to be transformed in this time.
Rabbi Mordechai Liebling 18:51
In some ways, I am grateful that I have not at all been in the leadership of organizing this Rabbis for Ceasefire, and it's been the next generation of rabbis who have been in the lead, some of them my former students, so I feel I'm very proud of what rabbinical students and younger rabbis out there who really have taken the lead in this Rabbis for Ceasefire, and they're doing beautiful work. You know, I'm just following their lead. Rabbis for Ceasefire has tried to be very public in our opposition, and in many ways to make it okay for others. By rabbis being public, it allows for lay people who feel isolated in their congregations or isolated where they are because the people in the front of the room are are supporting this war, allows them to see that there are people of moral authority, people connected to the tradition, who are opposed to this war and fighting for a ceasefire. So we also have a very symbolic role that gives other people the ability slash permission to advocate for a ceasefire wherever they are, and not feel so, so isolated. In the last two months, some ways the most emotional or a moment--challenging moment for me was in Philadelphia, some Palestinians had a demonstration that was a prayer service outside of Senator Casey's office out in the streets. And there were a few 100 people and there were a group of 60 or 80 Muslims who held the evening prayer service and memorial service out in public for the people who were killed. And they asked some rabbis to come. Part of their memorial service was they read the names of 100 children who were killed in Gaza. And they asked me to say the Jewish prayer for the dead, well known Jewish prayer called Kaddish, which is part of every service a prayer, Memorial prayer. And they asked me after the names were read to say Kaddish. I was in front of a group of Muslims at our prayer service standing next to somebody holding a Palestinian flag. And I was saying Kaddish for children who were murdered by the Israeli army. It was hard. It was hard.
Rabbi Mordechai Liebling 21:24
And it showed that was, it was a learning moment. That was, that was a hard moment. Didn't think I'd ever have to do that.
Dwight Dunston 21:41
I just want to breathe, breathe in which you, good brother. Just in hearing that story, the emotion and feeling emotional myself, I also felt some of my humanity coming back, you know, through this act, something you never could have imagined doing. You know, in hearing that story, yeah, my brain couldn't conceive of a situation in which a rabbi would be saying Kaddish after this, the ceremony, the naming of children who were killed by the Israeli army, just, there's so much about that. And also at the core, there's just something about once again, about the love that you mentioned, right? If we all really do belong to each other, like our scriptures, our texts say we are creations of God. We are Yeah, brothers and sisters and siblings. I hear something about that experience of of you saying Kaddish, I feel you feeling into that that truth of we belong to one another.
Rabbi Mordechai Liebling 22:42
It goes back to where we started about solidarity.
Dwight Dunston 22:45
Yep.
Rabbi Mordechai Liebling 22:46
And sharing each other's pain I mean feel like we've gone full circle from where we started to here. It's solidarity and the way you express solidarity is by sharing your pain with each other and standing with each other in our grief.
Dwight Dunston 22:58
Yeah, I'm just so grateful for all of the light and love that you've brought to our time together. I could cry a lot and I probably will, once we leave for that gratitude and grief, right, you know, tapping into sources.
Rabbi Mordechai Liebling 23:13
That's right.
Dwight Dunston 23:14
I truly from the bottom of my heart, thank you for reconnecting me with you know what it means to be alive. I thank you. And yeah, I want to close by just asking if there's anything else you'd like to offer listeners, or any last words you want to bring to our time together.
Rabbi Mordechai Liebling 23:34
Thank you. I think we need to hold on to the vision of beloved community, that vision of beloved community where we can all be together in solidarity in each other's beauty. With each other's strength, as well as our grief, this is really important. We are entering into certainly the most difficult time in our lifetimes in the American political system, these next eight or 10 months here. So next November, we are going to experience increasing conflict, increasing anxiety, increasing fear and increasing threat to our democracy. That means that there will be more and more ways in which people try to divide us from each other. What happened with the president of Harvard and Penn and the all of these right wing people all of a sudden becoming defenders of Jews against anti semitism is such crass manipulation. So whether it's racism or Islamophobia or anti semitism or transphobia, there are going to be a myriad of ways in which people are going to try to divide us. And we have to remember in this next year, that we have to stand together, and that we have to have compassion for the folks who are our opponents in this. They're coming out of a place of pain for the most part. The rank and file folks who are opposing us, they're coming out of a place of deep pain. I'm not talking about Trump and his cronies, who are, you know, out for power and gain. But everybody else, they're coming from a place of deep pain. We have to oppose what they're trying to do, but we need to do it with some sense of compassion without vilifying them. The vilification of the other never leads to anything good. In this next year, where we're going to be involved in very intense organizing to protect our democracy to protect our rights, let's not fall into the trap of vilainizing the other. You know, and let's also show true solidarity with each other.
Dwight Dunston 25:46
Few different names got mentioned in our time together, John Lewis and Vincent Harding and Martin Luther King, and I don't know who has the authority to lift up folks into that echelon of great thinkers and lovers. But I will say, today, here on The Seed, that I'm so glad to be alive at the same time as you, to have your thinking and your love, a part of our movements, a part of our quest to remember each other's goodness, humanity to build solidarity across our differences, all in service of of that beloved community. I just want to thank you so much for your commitment to the beloved community. I can't wait to continue to see how you let your life speak.
Rabbi Mordechai Liebling 26:30
Thank you, Dwight, this has been very sweet. I really appreciate the depth of your questions, the humanity of your questions and the way you created the tone for this time together. Thank you.
Dwight Dunston 26:41
Thank you.
Dwight Dunston 27:10
The Seed is a project of Pendle Hill, a Quaker center open to all for spirit led learning, retreat and community. We're located in Wallingford, Pennsylvania, on the traditional territory of the Lenni Lenape people. Many of our guests are teachers, leaders and speakers at Pendle Hill, and we host retreats workshops and lectures all year round. For a full list of these upcoming education opportunities, visit PendleHill.org/Learn This episode was produced and edited by Anna Hill with consulting from Peterson Toscano. Our theme music is the I Rise Project by Reverend Rhetta Morgan and Bennett Kuhn, produced by Astronautical Records. You can stay in touch by following us @PendleHillSeed on all social media platforms or by emailing Podcast@PendleHill.org. This project was made possible by the generous support of the Thomas H and Mary Williams Shumaker Fund. If you're finding these conversations meaningful you can support our work financially by heading over to PendleHill.org/Donate and please subscribe, rate, and review us wherever you get your podcast. These seeds could not be planted without you.
