#19 - JACK NGARI

Built a tech start up into a $600K+ revenue per year managing it end to end. Experienced in building a start-up into a profitable company, working in different capacities - Business Development, Partnership, Customer Relation, and Growth. Skilled in Research, Management, Customer Service, and Strategic Planning.

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Michael Kimathi
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelki...
Twitter: https://twitter.com/m_k_global

Jack Ngari
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jack-ngar...
Twitter: https://twitter.com/jaekngari

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Chapters

• 0:10 "Journey of Jack Ngari in Tech"
• 9:43 From High School to Tech Hub
• 16:16 Building Innovation Ecosystems and Entrepreneurship
• 27:46 Entrepreneurship Strategies and Startup Funding
• 37:58 Building Relationships and Trust for Success
• 42:17 Innovation and Trust in Kigali
• 55:20 Building Partnerships and Community in Africa
• 1:04:37 Building a Tech Ecosystem in Rwanda

Transcript

Speaker 1 0:10

Thank you so much. Thank you so much for joining us on top of the hour and these are great, great day, a beautiful evening in the land of a thousand hills, kigali, rwanda, and today we are blessed to host one more conversation around Rwanda tech ecosystem through Africa's Talking Podcasts, in collaboration with Impact Masters Podcasts still featuring the legends, people who are doing movers and shakers, people who are doing amazing things in the ecosystem. And this beautiful evening we are blessed to have one of the guys who has really played a key role in changing how Rwanda, or Rwandese or Rwanda citizens, how they consume digitalization and also in terms of tech. He has been there, he has seen it, he has done it and he's still making it. Actually, he's moving and shaking.

Speaker 1 1:08

One and only Jack Ngari, the country manager of Africa, stalking on this side of town, and today we are blessed to have him share his nuggets of knowledge and also share his journey since he started until now and why he sees the ecosystem. And I think I welcome you at this point to share your take, ask questions, interact with us and we get to learn more. So welcome. I'm your host, michael Kemadi, and we have Jack Ngari. How are you, jack?

Speaker 2 1:44

I'm very fine sir.

Speaker 1 1:46

Nice, nice, nice, nice. You look amazing this evening, as always. As always.

Speaker 2 1:53

Always motivated, empowered, so yeah.

Speaker 1 1:59

So, jack, please tell us about yourself. You know where were you born, how was that? Until you got to this point and take your time, don't just pass through. Because, that's the only way our audience will be able to understand why you are so important in this podcast, why we are hosting you, and also if they can get to learn one or two things from your experience not to make the same mistakes or you know how can they deal with the same challenges. That would be great.

Speaker 2 2:30

Okay, asante sana, thank you very much. It's an honor to be here at least, and share the little knowledge I have of the ecosystem. We are seated in a very beautiful view here. I can see the convention center. I can see Kigali.

Speaker 3 2:45

up there the view is awesome.

Speaker 2 2:46

It's awesome. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So this is how beautiful Kigali is. Yeah, yeah, and also the people are as beautiful as the view.

Speaker 3 2:54

Yeah.

Speaker 2 2:54

And I will tell you, the progress of the city is as you see it.

Speaker 1 2:58

So there will be much progress.

Speaker 2 3:00

next time you come True true.

Speaker 1 3:01

By the way, I was here first time in 2015. Some of the construction was still ongoing. I came back in 2018 when I met a few developers who we had a discussion.

Speaker 1 3:12

I met them as a student, actually and this is why I believe that you know what you do. What I do and many other community enthusiasts and people who actually create those pipelines and platforms is really something that is running, because if you meet someone, a student, who is lost, doesn't know what to do with even what they are learning, and then the next time you meet them they are serious backend engineer, you are like these works right and that's like a validation, because most of this stuff that we do is just volunteer work. So also, when you see an organized city like Kali uh with a great leader like paul kagame, it shows you that it's possible to do about here in africa and we can do it. So it's just a matter of just focusing and trying to do it the right way yes, yes, totally true.

Speaker 2 3:57

So I will tell you that to reach here, we need good leadership and focus, as you mentioned, if you don't have focus, yeah, to eat something else. And, yeah, we have been trying to build the ecosystem yeah and it's growing up first, yeah, so, um, just a quick introduction about myself my name is jack gary. I lead africa's talking here in rwanda yeah um, I've been in the ecosystem for, I think, think, 12 years now. Yeah yeah, I started my journey in university. I did IT. I was a dev.

Speaker 3 4:30

I was a developer. I had a startup.

Speaker 2 4:32

Yeah, yeah, it was called the RK New. So back in 2010, I had a startup, but we were ahead of our time, I think that is one of the mistakes that I can mention. Yeah, ahead of our time, because you can imagine, 2010, we had e-learning platforms, nice so and I will tell you that, during corona 2020, that's when it's catching up so you can imagine I was 10 years ahead of my time which is something that developers do a lot.

Speaker 2 5:00

Yeah, you create awesome product, but there's always that timing and seeing how is the market and, uh, is that product, uh, ready to be launched? Yeah, so that's the startup I had and that's how I got exposed to the tech world yeah um, it failed, unfortunately, yeah, but I didn't fail. I learned a lot from it. Yes, yes, and I'm using that knowledge up to now, just to build the ecosystem.

Speaker 3 5:26

Yeah.

Speaker 1 5:27

So it looks like Jack. You want to climb this tree from the middle or top. So where were you born? Ah, okay, okay, we want to know you as Jack. You know as Africa's Talking Country Manager, so we'll get there, there's no worry. We want to know who is Jack from that point of view. Awesome, awesome country manager. So we'll get there, there's no worry. But we want to know who is jack.

Speaker 1 5:45

Okay, yeah, from that point of view, awesome, awesome, so um, I was born in kenya yeah uh kapenguria, to be specific oh okay, yeah, I never knew about you see now, you see that yeah, it's it's in wexport court that is where I was born.

Speaker 2 6:00

Yeah, I lived in iraqi in embo.

Speaker 1 6:03

Yeah, and uh came to kigali. Yeah, we came here when. How old were you?

Speaker 2 6:08

um. I was 10. So you started school in kenya yes, I started school in kenya, came to rwanda yeah and, funny enough, I transitioned from anglophone to francophone ah, that means you were learning english and all of a sudden, all of a know.

Speaker 1 6:22

French. You had to do French and adopt Exactly, so you moved here as a whole family or just.

Speaker 2 6:28

Yes, the whole family.

Speaker 1 6:29

Oh yeah.

Speaker 2 6:29

We moved here, so by that time I had to struggle with French Kenya.

Speaker 3 6:34

Rwanda, yeah.

Speaker 2 6:36

It was a bit hard, it was a hassle. It was a hassle, but what I say is, during that process I learned a lot to manage, the way you know, the change, change is not easy and every human being doesn't like change, but you get into some situation where you have to adopt it. You have to be flexible in life. As an entrepreneur also, you have to be flexible. You were an entrepreneur at that age. That is when I started getting interested in entrepreneurship.

Speaker 1 7:04

So back at home we had cows and we had dairy so we would sell milk Back in Kenya or here here in Rwanda.

Speaker 2 7:10

When we came here in Rwanda so I could see my mom doing the numbers, the accounting. I'm like, okay, this is interesting. So that is where I actually started feeling like I want to be an entrepreneur, because it was very interesting seeing people recording and everything, yeah, so from there I did my studies here. Yeah, in Rwanda, yeah, um and uh, primary here, also secondary here yeah and at that process I was seeing myself as an entrepreneur yeah.

Speaker 2 7:41

I can give you a funny story here. When I was in high school, we didn't have a canteen, so for me it was an opportunity. Me and some friends were like ah, there's no canteen here, we can do a business here. So we sold mandazis.

Speaker 1 7:55

And was it like acceptable by the school administration or you did it illegally?

Speaker 2 8:00

It was acceptable. Okay, yeah, because they didn't have a canteen and you know, people have to eat.

Speaker 1 8:04

Oh, you provided the solution, so we provided a solution yeah, we used to sell mandazi.

Speaker 2 8:09

Yeah, we would get one at 50 to 100 francs, and we sell at 200 to 100 francs.

Speaker 1 8:15

Ah, so that was good money. That's nice. Yes, that's like 200%.

Speaker 2 8:19

Yeah, 200%, ah nice. So I grew up like that. You know seeing the spirit. Unfortunately, it became illegal.

Speaker 1 8:27

Someone realized that you guys are making a lot of money Because we used to make a lot of money. Maybe more than someone's salary, you never know. So they brought the canteen from there.

Speaker 2 8:35

It was illegal. We started selling sweets, lollipops and the business failed.

Speaker 1 8:43

You ate into stock?

Speaker 2 8:45

Yes, but I will tell you we made good money at the time. You can imagine having a profit of 200% in high school.

Speaker 1 8:52

That's amazing stuff. That's crazy money. I don't know any business that you do, only software.

Speaker 2 8:56

Yeah, software only.

Speaker 1 8:58

But any break and mortar kind of business is really hard to make that difference. Yeah, it is, and that means your entrepreneurship spirit denounced just the other day when you joined K-Lab. So you, throughout your that's primary school right.

Speaker 2 9:15

Yeah, that's high school, high school.

Speaker 1 9:16

Oh, high school, not primary school, yeah so how did you perform during your primary days?

Speaker 2 9:22

Oh, primary, I will tell you, I was not the best in class, I was actually the best among class. I was actually the best among the last.

Speaker 1 9:27

Did you play a lot or?

From High School to Tech Hub

Speaker 2 9:29

Ah, not really. It was a bit challenging for me because changing the language oh the transition. Yeah, the transition, so you can see, I was an anglophone and I had to, so I was like very disappointed. You can imagine finding yourself at the bottom of the list Back in Kenya.

Speaker 1 9:48

you're not doing so bad.

Speaker 2 9:50

In Kenya, I actually used to come among the first. I received so many prizes for that. So you can imagine that shift. It also challenges you. You used to find yourself up here and now you're at the bottom. You're like, ah, I'm just giving up, but I didn't have an option. And thank you to my parents, of course they put me. They're like I know yeah this will pay off and now I will speak about how it's paying off right now yeah, so I was not performing well. I even I high school.

Speaker 1 10:17

Yeah, I was just there, just to then, Average average, not the ones that receive the gifts and what. And then you could speak French. Yeah, and now I speak French, and Kinyarwanda, by the way. Yeah, and Kinyarwanda, so you're good right.

Speaker 2 10:30

So Kinyarwanda, Soheili English, I'm good there, so it was a bit of a challenge. From high school, that's where I was like oh, let me do business. Oh, okay school. That's when I started the startup with some three colleagues. We made so good software as e-learning platform.

Speaker 1 10:48

When did you start coding so that after high school you were just building software?

Speaker 2 10:53

I started coding around 2009 and something funny in high school I did math, chemistry and physics, but I had a passion of computers way back, way back.

Speaker 1 11:04

So did you have access back at home? Yes, yes, yes.

Speaker 2 11:07

I did have access back at home.

Speaker 3 11:09

So you bought it yourself.

Speaker 2 11:11

Oh, I got it from an aunt of mine who lives in the States. She told me hey, by the way, there's a new gadget here. At the time we didn't know computers and laptops. I was like, okay, what's this?

Speaker 1 11:21

Was it a laptop or desktop? It was a laptop. Funny enough, it was a laptop, so you thought it's a bigger phone. Yeah, I was like okay, what's this device?

Speaker 2 11:28

And I think I got it around, it was 2004. So at that time computers did not use.

Speaker 1 11:38

Windows. I think that's when Facebook had launched the current meta. Even I don't know what they call it anymore. Facebook had launched, I think Twitter had, I'm not sure. No, no, no.

Speaker 3 11:49

Twitter was not there at the time.

Speaker 1 11:50

Twitter was not there, so it was just formative days of the tech giant as we know them right now.

Speaker 2 11:55

Yeah so. I remember back in the days we had, instead of Facebook, we had Hi5, myspace.

Speaker 1 12:01

MySpace, yes, and Togo Did you use Togo at any point? No, no, no, togo is a South African company, that is, I think, if you know, tinder, togo was Tinder back in the day.

Speaker 2 12:12

Back in the day, yes, yes, yes, I think that technology had not reached here in Rwanda. I think it was.

Speaker 1 12:15

Dutch, I mean Oland, south African company.

Speaker 2 12:20

Oh, okay, and that's how you could get dates and all that digitally. Oh, really For us. We used to do it the old way.

Speaker 1 12:29

You write a letter and you send it to somebody hey, please take this letter there. And then you pay or you return the favour in some other way.

Speaker 2 12:36

You return the favour in some other way. So it was a win-win situation. Nice.

Speaker 1 12:40

So in high school? That's good. You have mentioned that. Did you date a lot in high school?

Speaker 2 12:46

Not really. I think in high school I had only two girlfriends, two girlfriends.

Speaker 1 12:50

Two, not a lot two.

Speaker 2 12:52

Two no, no, no. One in all level, the other one in A level.

Speaker 1 13:01

So it was a separate experience altogether. Exactly Was it easy.

Speaker 2 13:06

Was it easy? Was it easy? Yes and no, I would say. At the time, being young, you have a lot of expectations and words it was always challenging.

Speaker 1 13:16

No one teaches you how to love. That's unfortunate.

Speaker 2 13:20

You just learn from experience. Someone breaks your heart. Someone breaks your heart or you break them.

Speaker 1 13:25

They are hard or they don't meet your expectation, or you don't meet your expectation.

Speaker 2 13:30

And you give up and maybe what I can mention in love, you don't have to give up.

Speaker 1 13:36

You don't have to push. When you're young, you're like ah, let me just, I find somebody else Is it like the way entrepreneurs when you're starting up, you can pivot very fast, but when you have a company a stable company and start making losses, you're willing to explore different ways to try and revive it. Because this is how I see this and that's why sometimes we speak about dating and entrepreneurship and the tech ecosystem is because both actually are challenging and no one prepares you for what will happen.

Speaker 1 14:08

Exactly. You're not trying something, you're learning in the process. So there are a couple of similarities that people can learn from True and examples that they can get from there. So you started doing business.

Speaker 2 14:20

Yes.

Speaker 1 14:20

Was it pressure from the A-level dating?

Speaker 2 14:27

Not really. I think I've been always keen to be a pioneer in one thing or another. So that's where I saw like in Rwanda. At the time, schools didn't have websites no e-learning platform.

Speaker 3 14:39

I started with my former high school, Lise.

Speaker 2 14:41

Dekigali LDK and I approached the headmaster. He was very happy. I created a website for them and started integrating e-learning.

Speaker 3 14:50

Yeah.

Speaker 2 14:51

But I'll tell you it didn't go that well because at the time nobody would see value in e-learning. That was like 12 years ago.

Speaker 3 14:59

Yeah.

Speaker 2 14:59

And we are using e-learning just after 2022, corona, so it didn't make much sense in the market. It was a very good product but wrong timing, so that failed. After it failed. That's when I joined K-Lab. I was part of the core team in K-Lab. I've seen so many startups coming from K-Lab building awesome products. I used to specialize mainly on the business model canvas just to help with the experience I'd had failing from my startup. I also noticed most developers have awesome products, but you didn't understand the value that you're bringing and how different is it?

Speaker 3 15:41

Yeah.

Speaker 2 15:41

So the product is nice, but does it make business sense? True, true, yeah, so that is what I used to do back in the time in K-Lab.

Speaker 1 15:48

And how did you get this K-Lab job?

Building Innovation Ecosystems and Entrepreneurship

Speaker 2 15:52

So K-Lab? I actually joined K-Lab when I had a startup, so you used to hang out there. Yes, I used to hang out there. You know, show up. I'm like, hey, I have this and this. So that's, that's actually how I got the job in K-Lab. Yeah, it was a very good experience as well. I met so many developers actually meet, even some that have beautiful products yeah so I learned a lot from them yeah and after that.

Speaker 2 16:16

That's when I joined African Stocking so at this point, that's when you connected with the community, exactly, exactly yeah, so we used to have so many events, uh, hackathons, uh just to help developers, you know, come with brilliant ideas and and even people would come uh from nairobi from uganda yeah so we had so many events.

Speaker 1 16:39

Uh, killer, killer back should build the first first Ruby workshop back in 2018. And, by the way, they were really nice and friendly. I need to give them a shout out. I know they are no longer located where they were before, so I just wrote an email, having searched which innovation hubs that engage developers, and they were easy, like can you send us the link and what your target audience is? And even they helped me like promote this event to the community. Ah, awesome, and that's why I met Salvi and, among other guys. And do you think this kind of spaces actually we need more of these and well-funded and you know spaces actually we need more of these and well-funded and well-intended, to make sure that at least an entrepreneur like you has a space to start.

Speaker 2 17:32

Yes, it's very important, the co-working space actually, specifically because, it also helps you as an entrepreneur and as a developer just to get broader ideas, learning from these people. You know telling them about your product. You know there's a way you connect and you learn from them. So it's very important. Back in the days, developers would just sit in their room code all day, but after coding you know you get challenged in the market. You have a very good product and they ask you like what value are you bringing?

Speaker 1 18:01

yeah, and you fail from that.

Speaker 2 18:03

You have no idea yeah so I'll tell you this these co-working spaces are very important yeah you learn from a lot of people and also, you get your first clients from there yeah, true, true.

Speaker 1 18:14

So which kind of programs do you remember you know? Besides, you know business model that you facilitate on yourself? Which are the you know processes or programs that actually helped entrepreneurs? Then that maybe if someone wanted to start more innovation spaces, they can borrow a leaf.

Speaker 2 18:34

Well, the model that would work best, or that is working now, is just first of all, all you get more developers still when they're in the university that is where you start, because if you want to go out here and just grab a developer who becomes an entrepreneur, it will not be the right approach. So I would say you can first start with some outreach in different universities, because that's where the brilliant mind comes out and I'll tell you that when you're in school, let it be high school or university or college, there's this spirit.

Speaker 2 19:11

You have that. Anything is possible. And you're willing to try by the time you finish school, my friend, you come here and you're like ah.

Speaker 1 19:21

Things are different. Boutique on the ground is different.

Speaker 2 19:24

So you'll see, I'll say that is the best approach, because these students, they have that energy, you know. They have that feel of saying, hey, this can work out. But when you come here outside you're like ah, you need also.

Speaker 1 19:35

you have responsibilities, you have responsibilities. You cannot afford to have a mistake and I think that also boils down to what I've been doing and believe that it's very important building that pipeline, because now, after someone graduates, there are other guys who depend on that and if you're able to build that pipeline over time, you'll see the fruit.

Speaker 2 19:53

It might not be immediate, but over time you'll see the fruit of that pipeline. Yeah, and entrepreneurship is a journey. So you cannot be an entrepreneur just today and be successful in one year. I always entrepreneur and just today and you're successful in one year.

Speaker 1 20:07

I always tell people to give it at least six years.

Speaker 2 20:08

Very right yeah yeah, after six years. That's when you know like your startup is now moving the first six years you just spend. You know the opex is very high. Yeah, oh, you just break even, but after that yeah you see the fruit of it and I think, uh, mentioning also the co-working spaces and investors yeah that is something they should understand. I'm not saying that they have to take any startup and just put their money there, but I would say that six years is a very good time to use.

Speaker 2 20:35

That's when you start getting clients make a lot of money.

Speaker 1 20:38

So are we saying that even those who are investing, they should be able to give enough funds to sustain for that long?

Speaker 2 20:44

Yes, correct, but it comes back uh. Most investors uh fund because they want money.

Speaker 3 20:54

But I know some vcs that fund because they believe in the product and the impact and the impact that is going to bring in the community.

Speaker 2 20:58

So if that's why you find like, for example, I can give you a quick example of no skin no, skin is very successful. It has been. I think it's less than two years, but it's doing a lot of work because they believe in the impact they're going to make in the community. If there are more money or money-faced, I will tell you that they won't be where they are. They'll be dead, but because they believe in the impact. You hear everybody talking about no Skin, even in South Africa now.

Speaker 1 21:24

By the way, if you're in Kigali tomorrow, we have a whole day event facilitated by a consortium of three communities that is, africa's Talking Developer Community and Atlassian Community in Nairobi, and our African Ruby Community of Developers, and the intention is also still keep building the ecosystem. Please don't miss out. Either you're a key ecosystem player or you're a dev who actually appreciates the community, or you just want to learn best practices or tools of trade. All that will be available to you for free. So check out both Atlassian community page that is, atlassian community Nairobi and Africa Stalking community page. Sign those tickets.

Speaker 1 22:05

Let's see you tomorrow, starting from 8 until late. So see you there. There will be a lot of amazing, amazing prizes. There will be a lot of great engineers in town we have amazing engineers from Nairobi and guys who actually break some of these things down and let's have a good time throughout the day, among many other opportunities that I cannot reveal here. So see you tomorrow. So you are saying it's also important to join Impact and the business, because this actually can cut across the spectrum and take even the example of NOSCAN. So if you have your company there, you can see the culture is all about impact. So even if you are seriously in business, you ask yourself how can I combine what I'm doing to create also impact as much as I'm in business, so that actually gives you even the drive, even when you're not making?

Speaker 2 23:00

money right, exactly, that's true, because you know if you're more of uh just getting the profits, you're tired of waiting. Yeah, you want your money, but it's not coming you're like I give up. But when you see the impact that it is making yeah and uh, I will tell you that mostly impact is not tangible yeah uh, it's not monetary yeah money comes afterwards.

Speaker 3 23:24

I'm not I'm not saying that I'm underestimating the value of money because, at the end of the day, we pay for the space and everything.

Speaker 2 23:29

True, true, but if you look at the intangible benefits of it yeah, you will be amazed, you'll be amazed and money will come. I never underestimate money every entrepreneur wants money yeah, but you have to be patient with it, just have to be patient.

Speaker 3 23:48

Give it time and money will come. You can't insist on that, and when money comes.

Speaker 2 23:55

Money is a magnet actually.

Speaker 1 23:56

To be following you everywhere. Jack, give us, before we venture into more detailed, kind of approach if there's an entrepreneur who is starting out there, what will they do? For sure, and they will fail.

Speaker 2 24:09

One thing they will do and fail is to believe in their product more than the problem they're trying to solve. Because, if you're trying to solve a problem, you sell your product and it will have impact.

Speaker 1 24:22

So you have to listen to the users more than you listen to yourself, exactly Because you might find you're building a product that is only solving a problem, but nobody else wants it out there and you, as a customer, will not pay for your own product. I'm not going to pay for that.

Speaker 2 24:37

But if you do a market research and say like there's a problem I'm going to solve, this is a solution not just a product.

Speaker 1 24:45

It will sell. So don't pitch your product to your relatives, cousin and your girlfriend, because they'll tell you of course they'll support you. Maybe the next bill gets.

Speaker 2 24:53

Yeah, they will hype you, yeah, yeah so just go there in the market you know, learn research approach some few people yeah and you just see like oh, this is something that could work yeah. I'll tell you developers have awesome ideas yes, yes very awesome ideas yeah but oh, I see, feasibility is very, very important.

Speaker 2 25:13

yeah, I, you see, like when I said the reason why, actually back in the days I created a new learning platform, it's because, me, I wanted to find an easy way just to learn without going to the classroom, because I told you I was very disappointed with being in class. I'm always there, but actually I performed very well in university Because I went to Anglophone and I did IT, business and IT. So I was happy to do that. But I was solving my problem at the time. But, nobody would see that problem.

Speaker 1 25:48

That's why.

Speaker 3 25:48

I actually failed.

Speaker 1 25:50

But also, if you look at it right now, it might maybe not be the right time that that product would be adopted. If you're built right now and I've seen a lot of e-learning problem we're talking about here- right.

Speaker 1 26:02

So most people are raising a substantial amount of funds, they are scaling. Also, they are making enough revenues to sustain themselves. So when you look at that, also, there is a factor of time and there are two things that are involved in an opportunity time and place. And for you, you are saying I was at K-Lab because the innovation was happening. And also you are saying maybe I built the right product but it was not the right time. So it's always good and you can correct me if I'm wrong to be at the right space always and then wait for the time. It may not happen then, but things will manifest themselves and you'll be able to get those opportunities.

Speaker 1 26:41

Now that aside. So do you think also it's important to build the product first or to pitch the idea first to see if customers want it, or do you do both, whereby you have a product and you're pitching it?

Speaker 2 26:57

Well, you do both the ideation and the prototype, Because I'll tell you in the ecosystem now, if you tell me like no, you pitched to me, you have this awesome product, this and this I will say, okay, I want to see the prototype. And if you don't show me the prototype, I will be like okay, it's a good idea, but how am I sure it's viable?

Speaker 3 27:19

Are you?

Speaker 2 27:19

going to manage to do it. So it's always good for both. Yeah, and if you're a developer, it's always good to have a partner or a consultant that understands business.

Entrepreneurship Strategies and Startup Funding

Speaker 1 27:34

True, true, yeah because you cannot do both. You can try. You can try some of these developers who think they're rock stars. By the way, even, uh, when I started, I've been an entrepreneur for some time. Still I'm but a consulting entrepreneur. Mostly, when you are starting up or when you don't want a lot of headache, you become everything. So, which means you are the finance team, you are the HR, the admin, you are the engineer.

Speaker 1 27:58

The accountant, you do everything. But one thing that people don't realize is that they spend so much time in engineering on a product solution time and they lose on the cutting edge product, whereas they could have asked for assistance.

Speaker 1 28:14

Maybe share things like sweat equity, because I think there are several ways that you could make sure people are motivated enough, as much as you're not paying them. And maybe you can share your nuggets, because I know you can give shares, esops, you can also, I don't know, maybe delay pay, or people work in debt and give them stipends so that they can survive or even become a co-founder. So there are all these methods, but for you was that the experience when you had these friends?

Speaker 2 28:47

Oh yeah, it was the same. So we had an ESOP in place. So maybe ESOP is a system where you give shares but after a period of time, which means you come work for the company, after this period of time you get shares. So at the moment, that is what I did. I would work, of course did I would work because I'll give them depend because at the end of the day they have their own expenses they have to cater for yeah and good thing they believed in the vision yeah so it was very easy and we confounded the group together.

Speaker 2 29:16

We'll do this, like you know, hand in hand, and it I'll tell you it's quite challenging yeah that's some point. If you like giving up, yeah, you have the good idea. But if you look at your bank account it's telling you you're wasting your time Wrong number, yeah, so you feel like giving up, but it's a very good approach to have co-founders and you also give them shares. Some entrepreneurs are like okay, I want 100% of zero, that is saying that you're going to work 100%.

Speaker 2 29:49

You're going to be like everything in a company which is very impossible.

Speaker 1 29:52

Actually, you might think that you're very good into it, but at the end of the day, you realize, oh my goodness and you end up getting stressed so also, even becoming a owner of 100% of nothing is not so also, even becoming a owner of 100% of nothing is not the same as becoming an owner of 100% or even 1% of bringing something big, right yeah. So there are all those nuggets. Do you think now that people are raising funds is the best way to go when it comes to startup?

Speaker 2 30:19

Yes. I would say in the market. Now I've realized that there's ideation and also most of the product go with a prototype, which is very good, because if I'm an investor, I want to see the product. Don't give me the idea, because everybody has ideas. I know some awesome people that have great ideas but implementation is a problem. So when you have the prototype, it means that you're ready for implementation. So, I would say it's the right way to go. It's a problem, yeah. So when?

Speaker 2 30:47

you have the prototype, it means that you're ready for implementation. Yeah, so I would say it's the right way to go?

Speaker 3 30:52

Yeah, and right now.

Speaker 2 30:52

I think developers have learned that a lot. Yeah, back in my days. You have an idea, you know, make a proposal, go pitch it there. It's very good.

Speaker 1 30:59

but yeah, you win a few dollars, a few dollars and you don't realize that some of this money can't help you that much, because I remember even when the tech ecosystem started in Nairobi, the prices or the investment that you could get a seed fund was between $5,000 to $50,000. And even back then it was all that much. You could not have everything together and even do marketing or piloting or anything that actually would bring value to your business. Of course there are outliers who actually work with that and they were able to build something, but it's really hard. It's really hard.

Speaker 1 31:38

So you are saying they should concentrate. If someone is thinking about first build a viable product, should they expect the customer to be a real investor?

Speaker 2 31:48

Not really. Yeah, yeah, well, when it comes to products, target your customers first of all, yeah, but they're not going to be the real investor because I have to believe in the product as a customer.

Speaker 3 32:02

Yeah.

Speaker 2 32:02

You know, and for that to happen, you need some time, you know it's as you said. It so goes back to dating relationship. You need to build it over a time. Yes, you cannot come out there. You're a very good startup. Yeah, I don't know you. Yeah, you have an awesome product I'm not going to put my money in that yeah so I need to have this kind of relationship so it's very important for that over time.

Speaker 1 32:22

Yeah, I mean, this is what I'm thinking out loud and you can interject. So if I have a product, it's a good product solving a problem can I? Rely on a customer to pay for it instead of raising money, so that I invest my time and the customer invests their money in me and over time maybe I might become cash positive or profitable.

Speaker 2 32:49

Yeah, over time that's possible, and I think in Africa I was talking, that is what we did.

Speaker 3 32:54

We started with our customers.

Speaker 2 32:55

We saw a problem and brought a solution, and the customers were the investors and every customer is an investor regardless, if you have investors. A customer is an investor and you feel that when you lose a customer, true, yes, because you realize.

Speaker 1 33:10

Oh, my customer wasn't so happy exactly talking about africa's talking, so how did that happen?

Speaker 2 33:16

so I will tell you africa's talking. Now we deal with the different apis, so back it goes back to the developers yeah now we want to help developers just to have their own time to build their products. They don't have to go and look for the different SLAs that you need with the telcos with the different ISPs, so they concentrate on the product, and this process also takes time. So we are solving that problem. Developers.

Speaker 2 33:44

And they're building awesome, awesome products. So we are solving that problem, developers, and they're building awesome, awesome products. So we have SMS, we have SSD we have voice, we have airtime. You can imagine you're a developer and you can send airtime to somebody virtually. That is an awesome product.

Speaker 1 33:57

And I hear it's a. He sounds funny, but you can actually get this airtime at a discount and become a reseller as you build your product on top of that, which is amazing, because you become and we call it okay let me be realistic here. So we call it leaving money on the table.

Speaker 1 34:18

So we realize that the only way African will thrive even more is ensuring that developers are empowered in such a way that they don't need to struggle while they're building the business because building the business is hard and Africa's talking through Sam Gikandi and Eston and other initial employees versus people who believed in the vision is that they realized building a product is really, really hard, especially if you're an engineer and you don't have an income. So what they did as they built the product, they realized, okay, why can't we actually build a gate? We leave the door open. So we say this is where we went through and, as you can see us, we are okay. So why don't you also come through? And maybe over time you will be okay, and this has been proven not once, not twice. There are so many companies that actually has built on that. They have chosen to go through that door and they're doing well. I can mention a couple. Teja is one of them, I think.

Speaker 1 35:13

Also we were with Bonacquely, who was trying to do something not code or less code, kind of model, sms, leopard, you can name them. The list goes on. So essentially we're saying also, as an entrepreneur, you can find a way to also open that door to other entrepreneurs. And essentially Africa Stalking has always been customer first.

Speaker 1 35:38

I mean developers first, customer second and then investor to consider right and that actually is something that actually has made Africa Stalking become active in 23 markets, right? True, now it sounds like we're marketing here, so, but at least this information that people need to know about. You know Africa Stalking, who are actually a co-host of this podcast, to get where we are. But now here you are. I want to know how did you really join Africa Stalking? Where did you apply? How did that look like?

Speaker 2 36:19

I was referred by a friend from K-Lab still.

Speaker 1 36:24

Thank you to K-Lab. Shout out to K-Lab K. So you see K-Lab. Thank you to K-Lab. Shout out to K-Lab. K-lab is Kigali Lab. Yes.

Speaker 2 36:30

K-Lab is a dating. I'm saying for me, k-lab is the dating app we're talking about, so you're connected. So I went for an interview with a couple of people and I passed. And I'll tell you, I was in my second year university ah, I had not completed university actually nice yeah so I started as a developer and from there, business development, and now here I am country manager and also working in other different markets, and through this journey I've learned a lot about the different ecosystem the different markets how entrepreneurs think, how they should not think, how developers think, and I'll tell you.

Speaker 2 37:11

Now I'm no longer actively developing, but I'm a data scientist, so now I'm a project manager. I did my Masters in project management, so I focus more on how can I sell this product.

Building Relationships and Trust for Success

Speaker 1 37:27

You know, you're putting that too lightly, but you have built, actually, these. I would call it francophone kind of market and, by the way, rwanda market is impressive even in Africa stocking portfolio and many other call it francophone kind of market to where it is right now. And, by the way, rwanda market is impressive even in africa's talking portfolio and many other markets that you're activating right now. And that shows you that having an entrepreneurial spirit is very, very important, even when you're working for someone, because you you start to understand, oh, I can try these, and if it doesn't work, and maybe I can refine these, and if I make a mistake, this is the way to recover.

Speaker 1 37:58

So how was that journey? A second year? Who has failed several entrepreneurship ventures? And then you get hired to activate a whole market. Well, I saw it as an opportunity. Where did you start?

Speaker 3 38:12

I started in K-Lab.

Speaker 2 38:14

So it went back to K-Lab and I would mention that it's very important to know your environment and, as I was saying, in a co-working space your first clients are your colleagues there.

Speaker 1 38:30

So I started. The person you just ignore every day.

Speaker 2 38:32

Exactly that person you ignore. You know that dev. That is always busy with the headsets.

Speaker 1 38:40

That finance guy tap them and ask how are you doing? Can I buy you coffee?

Speaker 2 38:44

just connect with people that's how you get clients, and I believe that a customer can be a friend more than a friend can be a client.

Speaker 1 38:56

That if you look around the circle, Please, if you don't mind repeat that again.

Speaker 3 39:02

A client can be a friend easier than a friend can be a client, I see.

Speaker 2 39:08

And I speak from experience. In my experience I've learned that in Africa's talking I've gained so many friends.

Speaker 3 39:17

Clients.

Speaker 2 39:18

We became friends.

Speaker 1 39:19

We are connecting.

Speaker 2 39:19

We are sharing all these ideas together. This is how it works. But friends, a few clients, yes.

Speaker 1 39:30

But not as you converted some of the friends to Correct.

Speaker 1 39:36

This actually was proven. When we just came here, we went out a little bit and I thought to some extent, how small is Kigali? Because, chief, I think we committed that a lot to you. In every two people, one knows you, and it's not just knows you as a you know Jack who works for Africa, talking about, like it's a buddy kind of conversation. So actually, that's what we observed, so you are able to even, you know, pitch the business to them and what you're doing, because you are approaching them from the point of trust is that what you're saying?

Speaker 2 40:15

Yes, true, true, true. So because and this actually, it's something that most businesses don't do- yeah. There's a relationship you have to create with the customer.

Speaker 3 40:26

Yeah.

Speaker 2 40:26

And it gives trust.

Speaker 3 40:28

Yeah.

Speaker 2 40:28

It doesn't have to become friendship but, there's that trust, like if you want a product. You know I can approach Africa's talking yeah because of the trust they have shown me. Yeah, so it's easier to do that, and that is why customer experience, customer service, is very important developer experience.

Speaker 1 40:44

Developer experience relations. It's very important. Did you start as a developer relations? Yes, yes.

Speaker 2 40:50

I started as a developer relations. I was speaking many developers in so many events in universities across here, yeah, and actually that's how we starting getting clients? Yeah, because I was speaking with many developers, did so many events in universities across here and actually that's how we started getting clients.

Speaker 1 41:02

Yeah, yeah, yeah, because someone graduates, they are strapping or they get hired somewhere. Exactly, if they get hired someone and they heard about Africa, so they're like ah, Jack works here, you know, Ah nice.

Speaker 2 41:10

They want this product. I know where to get it. So that's why I was saying it's very, very hard to start there, down in the roots. Those are the future leaders, future devs that we'll be working with and there's another belief I have.

Speaker 1 41:25

Maybe you can correct me. Maybe I dream too much. I believe that the next biggest solution across the world not only Africa will come from Africa do you feel that vibe I? Feel that on the ground it's really hot, I'll Do you feel that.

Speaker 2 41:37

Do you feel that vibe? Because I feel that On the ground it's really hot, I'm telling you. I'll tell you I feel that, and if somebody doesn't believe that, wow, you don't know Africa, you'll miss the opportunity.

Speaker 1 41:48

And I think some people can agree and they can say you know what, maybe these people, people are a bit hot and you know feeling the vibe, but I'm telling you these things, these things on the ground, are real.

Innovation and Trust in Kigali

Speaker 1 42:01

I've been here for the 12 years also building specifically developer ecosystem and tech ecosystem, and I've seen the transition. People down there are skilled people are talented people are building stuff and even now for tomorrow event. You can see it's evident. The first time I came here we came as two guys. We didn't know much about kigali, we just came to k-lab who by the way, did we share this with? Actually, we didn't. We just the first sign ups. We approached them. No, there's a t-bolts, I don't know. You remember t-ball?

Speaker 1 42:32

t-ball, no another guy who used to hang around, caleb, but he also went to Japan for studies and then came back ah, ok, thibaut.

Speaker 2 42:43

Yeah, we saw that on our Twitter account, you guys is this happening?

Speaker 1 42:46

and also, I saw like he tweeted or asked a question about this same event. So, thibaut, if you hear this, please show up tomorrow, because he helped us actually like reach out to different guys and, just from that leap of faith, guys showed up. India, we are right now. You see, it's a big team, right?

Speaker 1 43:03

yeah, it's a very big that didn't happen then, then I don't think maybe we would be starting right now. So any, any leader there or any company there, please, the community is the way to go build, contribute. You know, make sure that you know you're are part of that story. Because this story, the reason even recording this podcast, is because I believe we are rewriting our own story across Africa. Because also our story is either stolen, destroyed or is not celebrated. And if it's recorded by other guys, I have nothing against anyone, but it's not well thought.

Speaker 3 43:38

They leave details out of it.

Speaker 1 43:41

So that even you don't understand who you are and where you've come from. So that aside, so you do the DevRel, it's successful. And then how do you grow, you know, upwards, to where you are right now.

Speaker 2 43:54

Well, by the time I graduated, that's when I was like hey, no, I can try something else.

Speaker 1 44:01

That is two years in. Yeah, two years in.

Speaker 2 44:04

That's when I joined the business team as a business developer. Quite challenging at first.

Speaker 1 44:10

Yeah, frustrating. What was frustrating about business development?

Speaker 2 44:14

Let me tell you it's not easy to convince people Sales. Eh, sales is something else, and that's why I always say that salespeople actually hold the company, because if somebody can sell, trust me, they can do anything.

Speaker 3 44:30

So I learned sales.

Speaker 2 44:33

And just to get more knowledge about it. That's when I did a Master's of Science in Project Management and from there on I was firing up. I was like, ah, I got ideas. And one thing I got from getting a Master's is you practically do what you love, I would say in high school. Why did I do math, chemistry and physics? It was popular at the time yeah and I enjoyed doing the experience, except math, yeah you're not that good at math. Ah, I'm good at math. Yeah, I don't like it it's just that.

Speaker 2 45:08

Other cells yeah but chemistry I like to play with the board, the board, yeah, that bone bone.

Speaker 3 45:17

I love it.

Speaker 2 45:19

But in university, especially when you're doing masters, you're now more focused.

Speaker 3 45:25

You're focused, you know what you want and you're building your career.

Speaker 2 45:30

So that's why I did project management and from there I'm still growing up. Inshallah, I might get a PhD soon in project management.

Speaker 1 45:39

Oh, you're planning to progress with your education.

Speaker 2 45:42

Exactly.

Speaker 1 45:43

And for you, actually, education is more like what you can apply, what you need to learn. What does it have to offer? And, in line of business that you're in, you also know that most developers right now have a big challenge of saying that you know the degrees that you're doing are not really that applicable. The tech that is taught in school is updated. What's your take on that?

Speaker 2 46:04

for developers, because this is hands-on. Yeah, it's a bit uh different uh with business and sales uh, because the developer will tell you they have to spend most of their time just coding researches. And the reason why I actually dropped out I would say dropped out on being a developer yeah because of Scala. I started coding with Scala. I was like, ah, next time they'll be telling me to code in another language that I have to learn.

Speaker 3 46:33

I was like, okay, yeah, I was very confusing, yeah so that's when I I was like okay, no, Scala is the hardest it gets. Yeah, it's the hardest. I was very or confusing.

Speaker 1 46:38

Actually, it's not that it's hard, but it's confusing, yeah.

Speaker 2 46:41

So that's when I dropped. I was like okay.

Speaker 3 46:43

By the way.

Speaker 2 46:44

I'm a developer, but I can do business and also saw an opportunity in business because, as I said before, developers have great ideas. Selling them is a problem. So I was like by the way, with the knowledge that I have as a developer, I can integrate it in the business I have and sell this product.

Speaker 3 47:02

True, true.

Speaker 2 47:02

Yeah, so, as I mentioned before, finding a problem and bringing the solution.

Speaker 1 47:07

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what do you think PhD will add into this?

Speaker 2 47:11

I would do a lot of research actually with PhD and I would say this is the research I'm doing.

Speaker 1 47:16

The data science thing is coming into play. Yes, yes, yes.

Speaker 2 47:20

That's why I actually did a diploma in data science because, I now want to learn how can I get all this data, all that information? For me, education is very, very much oriented on something I want to achieve.

Speaker 1 47:34

You just don't go to school.

Speaker 2 47:36

It's not about school. I don't like school I think I've mentioned that but if you go there knowing that you want to learn this certain skill, you'll enjoy it.

Speaker 1 47:48

True, true. So now, jack, there's something about this ecosystem that is not the same as other East African countries and even Africa at large, that companies here are either. If it's big, it's just a foreign headquarter or subsidiary, but if it's local, it's like it's being built, because, also, rwanda is a young country. Rwanda is a young country. How is it to convince someone to trust you and invest their hard-earned revenue that they know? Actually, if something goes wrong, we might go to square zero. And they trust you and they're able, and I know you have convinced a couple of guys. You have paid it.

Speaker 1 48:31

You have shown them the value and some of them are happy. Some of them maybe not.

Speaker 2 48:38

How is that process, the trust, actually, I would say.

Speaker 3 48:43

I give credit to our leadership, the government.

Speaker 2 48:45

Because if the ecosystem Rwanda is a startup nation, yes, yes, it is a startup nation 100%. It has good leadership that actually orients people and developers and entrepreneurs and give them that opportunity of feeling like this is a place where you can bring your money and be sure nobody is going to mess with that money.

Speaker 3 49:03

So there is trust from the government.

Speaker 2 49:06

I would say in most nations, not mentioning any, it starts with the government.

Speaker 1 49:11

The leadership.

Speaker 2 49:12

actually, If the leadership is good this means also the entrepreneurs will also be good.

Speaker 1 49:18

So there is a trickle-down effect.

Speaker 2 49:20

Exactly so that is very important and in this nation, I will tell you, we have seen that. That's why I know Skin is here actually.

Speaker 1 49:28

Because they know if you invest in these developers we are sure they are going to build something great. So in other words, you're saying that you know our government needs to get their act together, number one. Number two is that we need to create a pipeline of trust.

Speaker 2 49:46

Exactly.

Speaker 1 49:46

End-to-end trust.

Speaker 2 49:48

End-to-end trust yeah, and the government have to do that and also help the entrepreneurs, because most entrepreneurs don't have the funds for that. But I will tell you, in Rwanda we have different organizations or government organizations that are trying to invest in entrepreneurs, developers, to assist them in that. So if a country can believe in the entrepreneurs me as an investor why not?

Speaker 1 50:15

Yeah, you follow suit, I follow suit. And, by the way, if you've never been to Kig, suit, yeah, I follow suit. And, by the way, if you've never been to Kigali I don't know the view the view is good. Yeah, you'll see the video later on. So you subscribe to our channel, impact Masters YouTube on YouTube and also Africa's Talking. All these videos will be uploaded there and you can see the view.

Speaker 1 50:35

So one thing that I've realized that, um, his excellency paul kagame means business he runs this country like a serious, innovative ceo and you can see them in the lighting so you can go virtually anywhere 24 hours, though people are a bit reserved by by 10, 11. I wish this was in nairobi.

Speaker 1 50:54

So actually this economy. Once it turns to an four-hour economy, it will be really easy, because most of the infrastructure is in place and also government itself is leading by digitalizing the whole process of accessing service and also the security that people experience here in terms of even walking around and also doing business, and also how safe your money is. And also the transition that you experience here in terms of you know even walking around and also doing business, and also you know how safe your mind is. And also the transition that they had from, you know, hiring a couple of foreigners to help them as they grow, to now that it's almost fully transitional to Rwandese yes, If I'm not wrong.

Speaker 2 51:32

Yeah, you're not wrong.

Speaker 1 51:33

Because back then, when I was here, most of the people were foreigners.

Speaker 2 51:37

Yes, true, true, true. And you mentioned something very important that His Excellency Paul Kagame is running this country as a business.

Speaker 3 51:44

Yeah.

Speaker 2 51:44

And I'll tell you. Do you know where that comes from? And people don't realize. Yeah, in the Bible.

Speaker 1 51:49

Okay, In the.

Speaker 2 51:50

Bible. I will tell you, in the Bible, that's where leadership comes from. Yes, that's where leadership comes from.

Speaker 3 51:54

Yes.

Speaker 2 51:55

And it's like a company. So if you read the Bible in deep, you see that leadership and anything can lead it as a company, Because there's always the suit there up there the other managers, the supervisors and now the people. So that's how you should actually lead anything, even at home. If you have a family, you're the CEO, the wife is the deputy CEO.

Speaker 1 52:22

The kids are the you can arrange now as managers Exactly, exactly. If you do that you become entrepreneurs. Everything works. Everybody does their part. I don't know if it's today or the day before yesterday. I mentioned that you guys are well organized. You should take care of Paul Kagame as a president and even show some love, because sometimes you might be doing all this and maybe your guys are like talking shit about you, which is not fair as a human. Of course Paul Kagame is a human.

Speaker 1 52:57

You don't feel good about knowing how much you go to get all this working, because this guy gave it to him. He created this from scratch.

Speaker 2 53:07

There was nothing here.

Speaker 1 53:08

28 years ago it was destroyed. There was nothing at all, and right now, look so organized, so well and everything works, everything. So this guy says something very important. He said that not only do you appreciate him, but he is working where people really are supporting him to make for this work to make sense. And that's that hit me differently, because I realized not only do you appreciate, but you understand what he's doing. So you guys, keep it up. And I'm not saying that he's a saint or anything. He's a human. He has his weaknesses. There are things that people look at and they all like, but you can't make everyone happy. But give it to him. You can see for yourself and you can experience it.

Speaker 2 53:51

Yeah, he has done a lot and maybe on the ICT part, the tech ecosystem it's booming and I'll tell you, mk, in 10 years to come you're competing with Kenya. We might even overcompete, you guys. No worries, we are very hungry we are hungry, and I used to be a motivational speaker.

Speaker 1 54:11

Yes, yes, yes.

Speaker 2 54:12

When you're hungry, you know you work a lot, and you can notice this. When you're hungry, you know you work a lot, and you can notice this. When you're broke, you get ideas of where you get money.

Speaker 3 54:21

You're like.

Speaker 2 54:22

I'll get money, or if you have a project that you're working on and you want a certain budget you start getting ideas. But when you have everything, you're like I'm cool, no worries. So we are hungry.

Building Partnerships and Community in Africa

Speaker 1 54:32

And I mean to the point that you've said that you'll be competing even with Kenya. The reason I'm here is because I believe in abundance, so there's enough for everyone, and even the idea of competing should not be there. It should be the idea of partnering. How can we partner? How can we share? How can we grow together? Because it's easier to grow together rather than me looking up to you Because at the end of the day it would be like, you know, there is that burden of you know. I see Jack and I'm like, ah, why Jack solo, let me support him. But if we grow together, like yo, can you bring maybe half 50%, I bring maybe 25% or 10% and then build this together and when it grows, we have more than enough to even grow more and more exactly makes a lot of sense.

Speaker 2 55:20

And I'll tell you in africa's talking we're doing that. Yes, uh, we don't have any competitor. We have, we have partners, you have partners yeah, because you find that maybe they're providing this yeah, but I need it yeah I can.

Speaker 1 55:29

I can use them as a backup, you can use me as a backup, so it's a win-win situation, nice now that you're talking about partnership, and I am sure you have established some of these in collaboration with some of our amazing team by the way, africa's Talking we call ourselves A-Team. I don't know if people know this. It's because all of us bring really something different, something good in the company. So how does that work? For instance, if you really want to terminate here, we don't view them as a competitor. Or if we want to terminate in US, how does that conversation start and end?

Speaker 2 56:08

So first of all we just established that we're not competing. We're a business. Yes, at the end of the day, we want to make money, but we cannot make money competing with somebody else. We can only make money competing with somebody else.

Speaker 3 56:18

We can only make money partnering with them.

Speaker 2 56:20

I can give you a quick example. Here in Rwanda, we're partnering with one of the API or telco companies and what we do, we give them value. They have a product that we don't have and they have a product that you have so it's more of a win-win and you find yourself being partnered. They refer clients to us, we refer clients to them, so I don't have the pressure of ah, somebody is competing with me, they're building this product.

Speaker 3 56:48

No, it's more of a partnership.

Speaker 2 56:50

And we all prosper in this. So the conversation goes in that way and we try to one thing we don't poach. I've seen that in most companies I may refer your client and next time you poach them. Because you know the clients I have. So we don't do that. We build the trust Back again at the trust.

Speaker 1 57:10

So people poach from Africa's talking a lot, but the opposite is not true.

Speaker 2 57:15

The opposite is not true, because why would I poach a client when I know that we can all benefit.

Speaker 1 57:20

So, without saying also, africa's Talking believes in abundance, so there's enough for everyone to think what the other person has belongs to you, or zero sum game approach, which is impressive. So what do you think needs to be done to even take this to the next level?

Speaker 2 57:42

As you said before, we need to work together and believe that there's an impact we can make. I can tell you the impact that Africa's Talking has made in the seven years that we have been here. You can see it everywhere. We are working with farmers, we are in the energy sector.

Speaker 3 57:58

Yeah.

Speaker 2 57:58

We are supporting health.

Speaker 3 57:59

Yeah, okay so.

Speaker 2 58:01

I will tell you that there's an impact. If you feel like you want to bring an impact in the community, trust me, you'll get there.

Speaker 3 58:08

Yeah.

Speaker 2 58:08

And just keep the spirit. As you said, his excellency program is doing a good job, but we have to assist him at the end of the day, it's just one man at the end of the day. At the end of the day, it's one man but. If me as Jack. I can say I wanted to build. And maybe he doesn't know you, he doesn't know me, but he must know you.

Speaker 1 58:28

But what we are trying to say is that, how many people in 12 million? Of course he can't know everyone, but wherever they hear this and these are talking about Africa at large, wherever you 12 million, 12 million? Of course he can't know everyone, but wherever they hear this, if each and everyone and these are talking even about Africa at large, wherever you are, we know right now we have boundaries, borders and everything in our own fight. But if Africa wins, everyone wins, exactly, even an African. So if Africa works, everyone wins. Everyone feels the impact, because when I come here, I feel safe.

Speaker 1 59:00

When I visit here, I'm sure ah, you know, this is the place to be, and in that I bring in maybe resources, maybe I bring in knowledge. So it's more of an ecosystem where there's a symbiotic kind of ecosystem where you get and you take and you receive right. So I mean you give and you take right. So in this case, if you view like that and it's a good point that I put across that we need to partner, we would go further, as opposed to where we compete, where we look at each other like you know, because they have this, I don't have the other, or if they get this business, I don't get the other, or if they get this business, I don't get the other. So at the end of the day it's a win-win. Now, anything else you think can be done beyond partnerships?

Speaker 2 59:46

Yes, there's a lot that can be done. Customer service.

Speaker 1 59:49

Customer service. Customer is king.

Speaker 2 59:51

Customer is king and if you go into my Twitter, you'll see that I appreciate the good services and the bad services. It's a different conversation.

Speaker 1 1:00:01

Do you? Give them directly or do you also show it on Twitter?

Speaker 2 1:00:07

I show it on Twitter. I do it directly because I appreciate that good customer service because it means a lot. I'll give you a small example. It's one of the banks that I work with. They can help you anytime and you know, calling somebody and they're like, hey, they feel that your problem is theirs and that is customer service. It's very, very important. I know some good products out here, but the customer service is something else. I would not want to use that product.

Speaker 2 1:00:35

So customer service is very, very important in every business because, bringing in clients might be easy but keeping them is the hardest thing. How can you retain your clients? I can pitch the sales team, actually sales team. We know how to pitch yes. They can even sell you sand in the desert, so keeping the client is very, very important.

Speaker 1 1:00:59

Yeah, because it will verify what you sold.

Speaker 2 1:01:01

if it's true, Exactly if it's true, because customer retention is very important and growing them. So those are the two key things that I can mention for an entrepreneur and also for the ecosystem. If you're building a great product, it's good, but the customer service is shabby. I would not want to use that product. I just give up.

Speaker 1 1:01:22

Is there anything else that can be done? More than that.

Speaker 2 1:01:26

Well, of course, there's a lot that can be done, but those are two key things that I can mention as of now. But a lot can be done. What do you?

Speaker 1 1:01:35

think about education system and adopting what is happening in tech, because tech is not remaining the same. I understand there's a reason why people are taught the basics of, say, programming or the basics of computer science, because that will never change, but the overlying factors will always change because they want to adapt to what is changing in the available technology. How can we bridge those two gaps that exist?

Speaker 2 1:02:01

Education is very important as well, and good enough. I don't know if you've heard about Rwanda Code Academy. So instead of focusing in different studies, they focus on programming. So, you can imagine, you're doing programming from high school. You're not going to compete with this kid, they just come fresh in the market, but they have a lot of knowledge that you can learn from. Yeah, so also that is very important and in Rwanda we have so many TVETS vocational schools yeah that help build people from the start, from scratch this is your passion, this is what you feel like you can do, so why do you have to wait till university to choose what you?

Speaker 3 1:02:41

want to do True, true.

Speaker 2 1:02:42

If you can do it in high school, even much better. So we're implementing that here in Rwanda and that's why we are seeing a lot of change in the market. Now we're going to be having specialists, because these people did not do only this course. Let's say in high school. Three to four years They've been there. They know what they're doing. They've been, you know, more than six years doing that specific uh career yeah so education, as you said, it's, it's key, it's key yeah, yeah so um, I'm a proponent of a community.

Speaker 1 1:03:14

How do you think we can support developer communities in africa as africa's talking in rwanda?

Speaker 2 1:03:20

uh, so what we're trying to do as africa's talking, actually, uh, the event we have tomorrow, we want to implement and and we'll be having that every month. The reason why we're targeting every month is because we need to meet with the developers, inspire them and also share the experience and the knowledge that we have gathered.

Speaker 3 1:03:38

That is very important.

Speaker 2 1:03:40

You cannot get an experience of 10 years just in one day, but there's a way you can just teach you know, teach them, share with them, instead of them going through that struggle. As you said with the example you said of dating, nobody teaches you until your heart is broken. So we don't want to wait until their heart is broken. So we can give them guidelines and we help them so as Africa's Talking we're trying to do that. And monthly we'll be having hackathons, talks, podcasts.

Building a Tech Ecosystem in Rwanda

Speaker 2 1:04:10

We can even do that weekly Twitter space just to educate and to share the knowledge that we have, and also to learn from the developers, because they have awesome solution that we don't think about and we see how can we help them can we sponsor them can we guide them? Do we have funds to sponsor that? So that is what we're trying to do for the run, and not even only Rwanda across Africa, across Africa, where this movement is starting from East Africa.

Speaker 1 1:04:37

I'm leading the movement here with a couple of my colleagues, like Jack Graham. There's a CS team among among us us, so look out for more, but what would you tell some of, because I consider Africa Stocking as a leading tech company across Africa. What would you tell our customers in Rwanda?

Speaker 2 1:05:01

well for the customers in Rwanda. I will tell you that we do value. I always have conversations with clients, you know, and I tell them hey, you can reach me anytime and they will tell you, even if it's night, I try and help you.

Speaker 3 1:05:15

Yeah.

Speaker 2 1:05:15

Customer service again.

Speaker 3 1:05:16

Yeah.

Speaker 2 1:05:17

We value the projects you're working on because there's a lot of impact in that. We have clients in health.

Speaker 3 1:05:24

Yeah.

Speaker 2 1:05:24

And you can imagine how many people they're helping agriculture so everywhere. So we value the product they are working on.

Speaker 1 1:05:32

We don't see them only as clients, but also see the impact that they're making for the nation and Africa at wide so you'll be part of that story and we continue to support them. So would you have parting shots at this point? Well, be part of that story and continue to support them. So would you have parting shots at this point?

Speaker 2 1:05:52

Well, at this point not really, but what I can say now is for Africa's Talking, not even Africa's Talking. We have a lot here for the community. And this is just the start, actually, I think this is our first podcast as Africa is talking in Rwanda, but we have a lot of knowledge that we want to share with the community. We want to build a community and we want to see the impact that this will make so that in five years you'll be amazed with the work that we'll be doing, and you'll see a lot of change, so we want to be part of that journey.

Speaker 2 1:06:26

if it's in R, so we want to be part of that journey. If it's in Rwanda, we want to see how is Rwanda going to be transformed. And are we part of that journey? What are we hoping in that journey?

Speaker 1 1:06:36

If it is in Dar es Salaam, the same Uganda, yeah, and share that experience. So, of course, that's right and, last but not least, chief, that's right. And uh, last but not least, uh, chief, um, there's this analogy of, uh, you know, africa might be the biggest, uh, sleeping giant. I don't know if it's intentionally or by design or you know, someone's just fought, but there is so much potential, given we have now, I think, around 1 billion people and by 2023, which is next year, we'll have over 700, actually a million developers. This is a survey done by Google and this tells you how much potential we have in Africa in tech alone. And just to give context in tech, for you to build something or to learn something, you just need a laptop and the internet.

Speaker 2 1:07:35

And we have free internet.

Speaker 1 1:07:37

You guys have free internet.

Speaker 2 1:07:39

Yeah, you can get free internet. In town, you get free internet. That's the way.

Speaker 1 1:07:42

I've been suffering here.

Speaker 2 1:07:44

If you go in town at the car-free zone, you can get free internet Even in the bus stops.

Speaker 1 1:07:48

You can get free internet Even in the bus stops you can get free internet, but maybe eventually, maybe it might be across town right, exactly. Yeah, so that's interesting because now at least someone will not have an excuse that they can't access internet, right? So I mean, now you need to get maybe a laptop and positive attitude to learn and you're in it, right.

Speaker 2 1:08:10

And a smartphone and actually the government is giving out free smartphones through.

Speaker 1 1:08:16

Marathon. How can I become a? How can I get citizenship around?

Speaker 2 1:08:21

here. It's very easy. You just have to marry one of our beautiful ladies, Yo that's another thing.

Speaker 1 1:08:25

That's another thing. So you guys are beautiful ladies. By the way, if you're not married, if you are looking for someone, please visit Rwanda.

Speaker 3 1:08:33

And be honest, by the way.

Speaker 1 1:08:34

Be honest, the ladies here are a bit humble. I hope that doesn't change. We love you the way you are, and not even the way you are you know, like maybe they're something wrong, but they look good. Yeah, they're awesome, so beautiful. There's this analogy I've come up with. If you're listening to me, don't get me wrong. So when God was here, he decided to create a lot of mountains, and so they will be built. You know, god sees ahead of time. Right, yucca Gama will come, lit up the city, city and it will look this amazing. If you are, if you are looking at it, and then I realize also, if I build good looking ladies who you know have what most men you know like, then it will also be beautiful and that's what actually has happened in, in Rwanda.

Speaker 1 1:09:29

So, in a nutshell, without going further because I might say things that I might not take back, please visit. Rwandese are very friendly, they're very humble people, they are very self-driven. I'll say that, and I'm not saying this just because I want to say it, because I've experienced it again and again, maybe back in 2015,. I'll to say it because I've experienced it again and again, maybe back in 2015,. I'll not say that for sure, because maybe that was my first encounter.

Speaker 1 1:09:52

This is my third encounter and I can attest to it. Maybe I thought, maybe technology and the civilization will change you over time, but you are still the same people. You want to have friends, you want to learn stuff, you also want to share stuff. So please keep that culture because, at the end of the day, when you have nothing, you don't have technology. When you don't have all these things, you only have your culture to embrace and to give you hope that tomorrow I can try again and make it. So please keep that up and I'll keep coming back here as many times as it takes.

Speaker 1 1:10:24

I'll keep sharing knowledge. I'll keep bringing talents in the ecosystem and ensure that at least we win together. So yeah, so you're saying that we have good ladies. What else do you have here?

Speaker 2 1:10:38

Good leadership.

Speaker 1 1:10:39

Leadership Security that works.

Speaker 2 1:10:41

Can you imagine you can work at 2 am here?

Speaker 1 1:10:44

in.

Speaker 2 1:10:44

Rwanda.

Speaker 3 1:10:45

Try that in.

Speaker 2 1:10:45

Nairobi.

Speaker 1 1:10:46

I'm not saying anything. Of course, in Nairobi there are places you can walk, but not everywhere. Yeah, anywhere, but here it's anywhere, it's anywhere.

Speaker 2 1:10:53

So security and business is very, very important.

Speaker 3 1:10:57

Yeah.

Speaker 2 1:10:59

We have good co-working spaces here around yeah. And we have very beautiful views that can help you relax. As an entrepreneur, you get frustrated. We have some beautiful spots. You can just sit and have a very good view and relax your mind.

Speaker 1 1:11:14

And you guys are still building, we are still building.

Speaker 2 1:11:16

I will tell you. If you come back in three years, you will find something different.

Speaker 1 1:11:22

Nice, nice, nice. Anything not worthy.

Speaker 2 1:11:25

Anything not worthy.

Speaker 1 1:11:26

No.

Speaker 2 1:11:28

The airport, the not worthy. Anything not worthy, no, the airport it's good we're having another, the new one, the new one, we're going to have a new airport that can host uh many people now? Yeah, because rwanda, through the visit rwanda, yeah, we are getting so many visitors we have so many meetings happening in rwanda yeah so we want, as I said, that is part of the client support experience.

Speaker 2 1:11:51

We're trying to make people feel that experience of visiting Rwanda. Some people say our airport currently is very small and cannot attend to too many people. That's why we decided, hey, we need a bigger airport and we're building different hotels. Every day you'll find a hotel Now we're building different hotels every day you find a hotel. Now we have Sheraton, I think it's the latest. So you'll find that we are trying our best to be, to be, a startup nation and as we market ourselves, we live.

Speaker 3 1:12:19

We live through that as we mentioned, selling is very easy but now retaining the client, it's hard so.

Speaker 2 1:12:26

Rwanda. We are doing that. This is a company.

Speaker 1 1:12:30

And the CEO is His Excellency.

Speaker 2 1:12:33

Paul.

Speaker 1 1:12:34

Kagame. Yes, paul.

Speaker 2 1:12:35

Kagame.

Speaker 1 1:12:36

Thank you so much, jack, thank you for having me.

Speaker 1 1:12:40

That was amazing stuff and, by the way, jack is one amazing potential person. You'd like to be around. This is the first time we're meeting right. I've enjoyed even having this conversation among other conversations that could not be recorded, and I keep it that way. And until next time, I'm your host, michael Kemadi, or MK if you want, and this is Impact Masters. This is a podcast in combination with Africa's Talking Podcast, bringing you the movers and shakers in tech ecosystem across Africa. Three, two, one, yes, bye.