Jamie Lee:
I kept this hush-hush for so long, because I was worried about what you might think about me if I shared the truth about myself...
That I am polyamorous.
I have two consenting boyfriends who know about each other and don't have an issue with the fact that on Wednesday night I'm canoodling with Mr. Empathy and on Saturday I have movie night with Mr. Fix It.
Though I may look it, I am FAR from vanilla. I'm more of a Neapolitan.
The traditional heteronormative expectations of monogamy didn't work for me. So I redesigned my romantic relationships in a way that works for me.
What does this have anything to do with my coaching, you ask?
Next week, I'm hosting a free group coaching call: Leadership Lab.
And I wanted to make it unmistakably clear that I am NOT your run of the mill corporate leadership trainer.
When you work with me, whether free or paid, you are NOT gonna learn how to squeeze your humanity into a square box that was configured to serve the patriarchy.
You are NOT gonna learn how to "toe the line" -- or to play the meek, overworked "nice girl" who never speaks up against rampant sexism and racism in the workplace.
I don't believe that there is such thing as "too confident" for smart women who lead, manage, and come up with valuable solutions in the workplace.
I recognize that unconscious bias is real and holds competent women -- especially women of color -- in the grip of fear of being labeled "aggressive" for behaving in a way that gets men lauded and promoted.
But I'm not here to gaslight you and to tell you to smile, or play stupid games or play small.
I'm here to share with you life and brain-changing tools -- for FREE next week -- that will help you see that you have more resilience, more depth, more power, more agency in your own life and career than you have ever imagined.
Whether you stay or go... whether you take the post as is or you redesign it to make it work for you, you will have to lead yourself before others.
And I'm here to equip you with the tools and confidence so you can do it in a way that is most truthful and respectful to your unique flavor of humanity.
And if that sounds like something you'd like, you can either join Leadership Lab next Tuesday, March 21st at 12pm EST.
For now, I'm sharing with you the recording of last year's Leadership Lab. I had the first Leadership Lab last June.
In this recording you're going to hear me talk about leadership, how I think about it.
You're going to hear me coach people live.
And here's what I want to share with you. It may give you an idea of what it's like to work with me. It may give you an idea of what it's like to be coached by me...
And this year, it's going to be DIFFERENT.
This year I'm going to be teaching you self-directed neuroplasticity tools to help you reduce your anxiety, to help you stop the pattern, to unlearn the "ingrained" habit of second-guessing yourself and ruminating on your perceived faults.
These are the patterns that I see so many smart women repeating, because they haven't yet learned these life and brain changing tools. I'm going to demonstrate them and I'm going to teach them to you live, and you can also put your hand up for live coaching from me at Leadership Lab on Tuesday, March 21st at 12pm EST.
If you can join live, please do so. If you can't, you can still register and get the replay.
I hope you enjoy this recording of last year's Leadership Lab.
[Pause]
So, welcome to Leadership Lab. I really believe in this because I think now more than ever, <laugh>, I know two and a half years into the pandemic, um, with all of the things that are going on, the shooting, the climate change, and all of the upheavals in our society, I really do genuinely believe that we need more women's leadership than ever.
Like, we need more collaboration. We need more women to be in all of the places where decisions are made, and, um, yeah, and voices are represented. So, a little bit about me.
My name is Jamie Lee. I'm an executive coach. I'm based in New York City, and I started out helping women negotiate their salary. And before that, people, I mean, the reason I'm telling this story is because people often ask me, Jamie, how did you get started in doing what you do.
I help women, smart women who hate office politics get promoted and better paid. And I feel like I have had a lifelong training. I am an immigrant. I came to America when I was seven years old. I was born in South Korea, and I came here in 1989.
So you can do the math. And I've been living here for 33 years. And, uh, long story short, my mother, uh, ended up singlehandedly raising me and my two sisters.
I'm one of three daughters in America by herself. Like there was no rich uncle to foot the bill. There was no like, child support from my dad. Like my mom still speaks broken English a lot worse than Margaret Cho's mom. And, and all throughout my childhood, I was a latchkey kid growing up in New Jersey in a mostly white neighborhood.
And my mom was always telling me, Jamie, you know, you gotta speak up. You gotta ask for what you want. You gotta advocate for yourself, in other words, and I used to roll my eyes at her.
I used to be like, yeah, but I, I just wanna get along with everyone. I, I wanna be liked. I don't wanna make waves. I don't wanna be, you know, B I T C H. I wanna be, I don't wanna be seen aggressive. And it wasn't until I got into the working world that I found out my mom was right.
You gotta speak up. You gotta ask for what you want. You gotta advocate for yourself. Nobody, nobody, you know, places a tiara on your head for keeping your head down and doing good work.
You know, no, people don't recognize, uh, good work until you showcase it, until you speak up, until you advocate for the value of that. And I learned the hard way. I'm like, yeah, she was right. I gotta speak up. I gotta advocate for what, what I want. I got to communicate my wins and my wants.
And I just didn't have a mental framework. I just didn't know how to do it in a way that didn't feel like weird and icky, like foreign to me, because it just hadn't been modeled in my own personal life. My mom was, uh, uh, still is a nail technician. And my, and my parents, when they worked together, they worked a, worked a gift shop.
They ran a gift shop. So I never got to learn, like, how do leaders in the office, like people who work for companies, how do they advocate for themselves instead of, you know, being like, uh, confrontational, like haggling, which I saw a lot of growing up when I was, uh, in South Korea, right? Like, I always thought negotiating, you gotta be like, kind of jocular and, um, kind of like play a game.
But I didn't realize that actually how you advocate for yourself in the workplace is how you lead. I'm gonna say it again. How you advocate for yourself is how you lead, because you gotta be willing and able to advocate for your ideas, advocate for your, your direct reports, advocate for resources, advocate for ideas, right? But it didn't have to be like haggling or putting up a fight. It didn't have to be confrontational.
There was a way to communicate the value of your ass, the value of your ideas in a way that was really compelling. I just hadn't learned it yet.
And so I feel very passionate, um, about teaching as many women, and particularly women of color, women of marginalized identities, these simple skills that anyone can learn, anyone can implement to not only improve their career outcomes, but to show up as a leader in the workplace and to express all of the potential that you have to be a senior director, to be a vp, to be s v p, to be C level executives.
We need more women in those roles now, more than ever. And when you learn to advocate for yourself in this effective way, you learn to lead in an effective way. And that's what I'm going to talk to you very briefly about before I open the floor up for open coaching.
Okay, so you're here, and you might be asking, wait, do I count? Is it okay if I call myself a leader? I, you know, I just have a team of two, or I'm just like five years into my career and I kind of feel like I don't know what I'm doing half the time. And sometimes, like I hear the, the it bitty shitty committee saying, oh, who do you think you are? Maybe you're not good enough, right? But here's what leaders do. Okay?
I love this definition. I borrowed this definition from Brooke Castillo. She's my, uh, coach mentor who taught me how to coach people. And her definition, I'm borrowing: leaders are people who go first without knowing the how.
And maybe right now you're like, I don't know how to stop low balling myself. I just had a coaching session with a client. She's like, I keep low balling myself.
Okay, maybe you don't know how, maybe you don't know how to implement the strategy that's gonna help, uh, leverage data science to improve profit margins. That's, that's something that one of my clients is working on. She's a director of data science. I have another client who, uh, recently got promoted to senior software engineer, and she's thinking about, okay, I got promoted, and you know what?
I wanna get promoted again. I don't really know how I'm gonna do that. She doesn't know yet, but she's gonna go first. And maybe you lead a project. Maybe you lead a project on, um, uh, brands, marketing. Maybe you have an idea about how to launch a product, but you don't really know exactly the how. You don't exactly know step by step like the exact formula of how it's gonna happen. You have a vision, you have an idea, you have a desire, and you're willing to go first.
You're willing to take action. You're willing to figure it out. That's what makes you a leader. Not your fancy title, not your six figure salary, not how many people are reporting to you or not reporting to you. Are you going first without knowing the how? Okay? And of course, when you go first without knowing the how, you gotta make some decisions.
You gotta be willing to say, okay, I don't know exactly how this is gonna work out, but for now, I'm gonna decide on this next step. And I don't know how it's all gonna happen, but I'm willing to come up with one solution to this problem that's in front of me. And I'm gonna help you. If you feel stuck in this, let's coach on it. I'm gonna help you with this as well. And in order to go first without knowing the how, you gotta be communicating, right?
Communicating your decisions, communicating your solutions or your ideas to people, whether they are your direct reports, whether they are internal stakeholders, whether they are your boss or your boss's peers. You gotta be willing to communicate your decisions and your solutions in a way that helps them see the value of your idea, right?
You gotta be willing to communicate in a way that compels people to, to, um, to give you buy-in, to say, yeah, I'm gonna help you. Yeah, I'll give you support. Yeah. Here are my ideas of how you can proceed from here, right? So how do you communicate your ideas, right? How do you lead by, um, articulating the value of your ideas or your ask? I sent an email about these five phrases yesterday, but here's a quick review. I think these are five key phrases. Cut five key communication strategies, if you will, or principles that you wanna be implementing at all times, right?
You don't have to exactly say it this way, you don't have to use these exact words, that's not the point. But the point is, um, try to understand why I'm suggesting that you employ these phrases and try to incorporate them into your daily communication on a consistent basis. And just see what happens. Like this is a lab, right?
This is a leadership lab. And so I want you to experiment with incorporating these, uh, communication principles into your, uh, leadership and see what happens. Let me know how it goes. Okay? So number one, here's why this is important, right? I think this is important for you to say, uh, like at the top of meeting, at the top of a call, right? Remind people why you are convening, even if you're just having a check-in with your, uh, freelance contractor. Like remind them, Hey, this is why I'm bringing this up.
We're working towards a common goal, whether that is to complete a project, whether that is to further the mission of an organization, whether that's to save money. Like this is the reason why we're here together discussing this, and this is why I'm presenting this idea. You know, um, Simon Sinek has a great book called Start With Why, right? So you wanna start every discussion with why what you are addressing matters. Number two, here's how this will help us win, right?
Sometimes people will be difficult, right? Sometimes there are bad communicators. There are, uh, people who will be defensive in meetings for reasons that you're like, I, I don't understand. I don't know, I don't know if it's personal, but most of the time, people who are difficult are just trying to save face because they don't wanna lose face. They don't wanna, um, lose stature, right?
They're afraid that, um, if something is perceived a certain way, they're gonna be seen a particular way. Let me give you a specific example. I coached a client who is director of digital sales for financial services company, and her colleague is responsible for offline banking. And in the meeting she noticed that this particular client was off standish, and she was reluctant to answer questions. And my client, she's a doer. She loves getting things done.
So she tends to start every meeting with like, okay, this is what we're gonna do. This is what, you know, hasn't been done. This is my idea, right? She wanted to just jump in right ahead, but she noticed there was like friction in the conversation. So I advised her, start every meeting with why you're, you're together. And then remind her, here's how my ideas, here's how these suggestions will help both of us achieve our goals, right?
This is a win-win. And you say it before you present the idea, right? And then once you do this really well, you could also just check in and ask, Hey, would you agree that this is adding value? Are we still in alignment here? Right? And my client noticed that as soon as she did one and two and incorporated a check-in, Hey, are we, are we in agreement that we're working on the most important thing? The high priority item?
Like her colleague was much more willing to collaborate, discuss, be open, right? They had a more productive conversation, okay? And also, as a leader, it's your job to advocate for resources, for help, for information, right? I like to ask for something very specific, smart, specific, measurable, attainable, reasonable time bound, right? As a leader, you may be asking your direct reports, you may be asking your internal stakeholders for specific support, and maybe, you know, you wanna ask for opportunities for growth.
Maybe you wanna ask for a promotion. But if you do 1, 2, 3, well, right? You understand why you know what you're asking for matters to both side and what the win-win benefits are. And you've checked in and you have bought, you've gotten buy-in from the other side. Say, yeah, of course this adds value. It's a no-brainer.
What you ask for becomes such an easier ask because you've set yourself up for success, and you've also framed for the value of what you're asking for. And you've helped them see, this isn't just about me, me, me, this is about a win-win, right? And of course, sometimes you encounter things that you don't understand. Sometimes you encounter pushback. Sometimes people are just not as fluid. Sometimes people aren't as good at communicating why something is important or how it will help both of you, right? Sometimes people don't do this.
And so then you can just be the leader. And help me understand, what do you mean by that? Help me understand. Help me understand why this is important to us. Help me understand what is the value add here, right? So I think these are really great, a great, all of these are great questions to ask, um, people that you have to engage with on a day-to-day basis. Okay? So with that said, I just wanna again, reiterate how you advocate for you, right? You could use all of these phrases to advocate for your promotion, right? For your career development.
You could use all of these phrases to advocate for your idea, your innovative idea being implemented at your company, right? How you advocate for you is how you lead and how you lead is how you serve, right? Self-advocacy is an act of service. It is the very opposite of what patriarchy taught us to think about. Self-advocacy. It is not selfish. It is of service because you're addressing what's most important, the win-win. You've gotten buy-in, and you're asking for something specific that people can help you with. And when people can help you, they, uh, you get to advance your idea. And when you advance your idea, you get to address the big picture. Why? Okay? So I'm going to pause here. That's the, the mini training I have for you today. I'm going to put this aside for now.
Uh, maybe I'll, I'll just leave it here in case people are still writing this down. Okay? I'll just move it back and then I'm gonna, all right, so now I'm gonna open the floor up for coaching. I see people have asked questions. Um, I'm gonna, um, I'm gonna save, okay? There are no questions. Okay? People are like, I can hear you. Okay, good. <laugh>. All right. So who would like some coaching? And you can ask for coaching on any of the things that I addressed today so far. Or you can ask for coaching on anything else that is relevant to your career, your leadership. And all you have to do is press that little palm button at the bottom of your screen. It says raise hand. Okay? Awesome. Shama, I am going to promote you to panelist. Where are you? Okay. Hi, Shama.
Speaker 2:
Hi.
Jamie Lee:
Hi.
Speaker 2:
Um, I, this is great. Thanks for inviting all of us here. Um, I had a question about, um, like focusing and kind of like, you know, like within the workday with everything that's going on that you mentioned, um, just like in the world. And then personally, all the things that we're kind of like grappling with, it feels really easy for people to feel like, oh, I can't lead because I'm so distracted, or I'm not as focused as I used to be, or I just feel kind of like, in a different place than I was at like, quote unquote my best. And so I'm just wondering how we can kind of like reframe that thinking like on a day-to-day basis and kind of adapt to like the news, but then also just kind of like personal, um, yeah, like things that happen, kind of like, it feels like almost every day there's something that's happening. So how do we kind of like stay, like resilient and like keep working?
Jamie Lee:
Yeah, that's an excellent question. I think that's something that many of us are probably thinking about and maybe you struggling with. So when you, when you say lead, what is the mental image that you have about, you know, like you, you're thinking, uh, leading would look like this?
Speaker 2:
Yeah, I think, um, when I think about people leading, I feel like unfairly it's often tied to productivity. So if you, in my line of work, if I see someone launching a lot of projects and announcing things and they're constantly kind of like producing output mm-hmm. <affirmative>, that feels like, oh, they're leading and they're producing. And when it takes me a little more time to like, get over things and get back to work and kind of like move forward, it feels like I'm beating myself up. And then also putting myself in the spiral. Like, I think getting out of my head, um, feels like, oh, that's not what a leader does.
Jamie Lee:
So notice that your tying the definition of leading with productivity, and, and when you do that, you feel not great, cuz you're, you start beating yourself up because you're comparing yourself to this mental model of like producing even with all of the things that are going on.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, that's true
Jamie Lee:
<laugh>. Yeah.
Speaker 2:
And that feels unproductive.
Jamie Lee:
Interesting. Yeah. And it makes sense, right? Tell me how this makes sense for you.
Speaker 2:
Um, I think kind of working through like perfectionist thinking, I think, you know, I associate leadership with productivity and perfection and without knowing the circumstances of what those people are dealing with and kind of actually getting things done. Yeah. Um, so yeah, it feels really unproductive, but then it also feels really hard to kind of like get over things and move forward. I think like, just kind of like, what's the re you know, if we can figure out like what's the relationship between, you know, like one of the models that, um, we've used of like, you have a thought, you have a feeling, and then just kind of like moving past that and like how much time like to give yourself in that case.
Jamie Lee:
Yeah. And the thing that I wanna highlight here is that of course your brain is right now assuming that leading is tied to productivity because we live in capitalist society where we have been taught to believe that productivity is like the most important thing. And also, um, it's a very, um, yeah, as you said, it's perfectionist thinking that even with all of the things going on and our brains having reactions to it, like somehow we're supposed to suppress our humanity and be just producing, producing, producing. And what we notice is that, um, this particular mental framework has your spiraling and being unproductive. And I wanna offer, like, leadership has been defined. It's a modern invention, uh, that's, um, modern invention created by the patriarchy. Yeah. And I wanna offer, like, you get to define leadership the way you want to.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, that's really true.
Jamie Lee:
Yeah. So one thing that I wanna offer you right now, because you said the thing you most wanna do is you want to grow your resilience, right? In this situation, like, I, I just wanna offer, um, this to you and for everyone else on this call, our brains will offer up these thoughts and we could just be like, how human of me, our brains will offer up resistance. Our brains will offer up, uh, I don't know what emotion that's coming up for you right now, but like in response to the things that are happening in the world right now, this is our brains operating per it's designed to, right? Whenever we see something that is troubling, when, whenever we see like a school shooting, our brain doesn't know, like the part of our brain just assumes that like, oh yeah, that could happen here. Like, it starts to tell a story that creates an experience in the body as if something terrible is happening right now, even though it isn't in our reality. Does that make sense?
Speaker 2:
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Yeah. It feels like an overpowering feeling. So just like giving it less authority in order, like giving it space to, to not like beat yourself up for having the thought or the feeling, but then also not giving it total authority over yourself.
Jamie Lee:
That's right. That's right. And so this is something that I learned from my mentor car leventhal, is like, what if you just like, oh yeah, of course our brains are gonna offer up these thoughts that make us feel bad. So we just say, okay, how human of me? So instead of just as you said, like totally giving into it or giving it all of our authority, which is observe without judgment and how human of me to assume that leading is all about productivity, because that's what I've been exposed to in all my life.
Speaker 2:
Totally.
Jamie Lee:
Yeah.
Speaker 2:
Um, yeah. And it feels like it's very human for a lot of us to be sensitive to things that are like said or expressed or kind of like perceived by us, like in the workplace and outside. Yeah. And that is also like very human. Like, it's kind of, you know, not easy to get over those things as quickly as you think you have to for like Anna productive capitalist society.
Jamie Lee:
Yeah. And I wanna offer that, you know, defining leadership as like producing, just like maintaining a high level of a, of productivity no matter what is going on, no matter what emotion you're feeling, no matter what's happening in your life. I think that's definition of toxic capitalism.
Speaker 2:
Yes, absolutely.
Jamie Lee:
Yeah. And so I wanna offer everyone here, like, you get to define leadership, leadership is just an invention. Somebody who just like, well, people have bought into this idea that leadership is like, you know, producing at top levels at all costs and sort of masculine, right? O over aggressive overconfident, but we get to redefine it. How would you like to define leadership for you?
Speaker 2:
Do I have to share that right now? <laugh>? Um, I mean, I think I, I admire like, thoughtful projects being out there versus things that are just kind of like being thrown at the wall for like producing, for producing sake. Um, and I think for me personally, like leadership and working with people has always come down to being empathetic and making sure everybody feels like safe and comfortable in the workplace mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and that's always been a priority. Um, and I think I'm just like working towards figuring out how all of those things that I personally value kind of like fit into like my company's, um, overall mission. Yeah. Um, and how we can like work towards goals, but not in a toxic way.
Jamie Lee:
Yeah. So what's one way, what's one way that your definition of leadership, thoughtfulness, empathy, what's one way that would help you focus today?
Speaker 2:
Oh, that's a good question. Um, I think putting down kind of like some principles that I think are important for our team, like into document, sharing it with my boss, sharing it with teammates, um, like putting it, like putting pen to paper instead of just letting it live in my head along with the other thoughts that are circling that are kind of making me feel bad. Yeah. So that I can at least focus on that.
Jamie Lee:
Right. Let's notice that you get to shift your focus on your definition, on your ideals of leadership. And when you do that, what I hear is that you will be productive. You will put pen to paper, you will share ideas, right?
Speaker 3:
Yeah.
Jamie Lee:
Yeah. Okay. Do you feel complete with this?
Speaker 2:
Yeah, that was really helpful. Thank
Jamie Lee:
You. Okay. Thank you for volunteering. I'll see you shamas, my client. So <laugh>, I'll see you later. Okay. Uh, how do I put you back to attendee?
Speaker 2:
That's great, thank you.
Jamie Lee:
Okay. Okay. I'm just gonna call, I'm just gonna promote the people who raise their hands. Emily, you are next.
Speaker 3:
Hi.
Jamie Lee:
Hi Emily. How can I help you?
Speaker 3:
I was recently promoted, and so I will be managing 10 people, um, in addition to my other responsibilities, and there wasn't, there's no real clear definition to me that of what my company considers success as a manager. And so I'd like to define my own version of that. So kind of jump feeding off of the last person who's getting coached. Yeah. Um, my mind is saying that I can't create my own definition of success. Like my own definition of success isn't going to be the definition you of success that my company wants, and it won't be the one that helps me get promoted and, um, have a salary increase in that sort of thing. So it feels like there's in conflict.
Jamie Lee:
Tell, gimme a little bit more detail. Like what are we talking about specifically? Like how would you measure success or what's one way that you would measure your team's success right now?
Speaker 3:
Well, I guess I'm thinking how I would manage, like, how I know I'm doing a good job as a manager, but maybe their question really is more like how my team is doing. Um, it's actually three teams that I'm managing, so, okay. So actually our c e O said that employee retention is his most important measure of company success. So, um, I think one thing that I could do is dig into what helps with re employee retention. I've done a little bit of that. I know one of the things is that it's work that people
Jamie Lee:
Find. So I'm gonna pause you right here, Emily. Okay. What I'm, as I'm listening to you, what I'm hearing is that you haven't yet defined, right? You Yeah. It was so fascinating because you're like, I can't, I can't create my own definition of success, so I'm like, oh, maybe she has a definition <laugh>. Like, she's like, it's not gonna agree with the companies, but like what I'm hearing is you haven't yet defined it.
Speaker 3:
Yeah.
Jamie Lee:
And yet your brain is telling you that somehow you're gonna be wrong.
Speaker 3:
Yeah. <laugh>.
Jamie Lee:
Okay. Let's just get curious with that. Like, why do you think your brain is offering that thought to you?
Speaker 3:
Well, it's offering me like there's one right way to do it. Hmm.
Jamie Lee:
Okay.
Speaker 3:
Yeah. And that's the company's way, which I don't, I'm not even sure of what that is.
Jamie Lee:
Okay. So fascinating. Right. We have no idea. You're like that classic example that I just gave of the definition, you gotta go first without knowing the how, without knowing the specifics mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Right? And so of course your brain is offering this doubt. There's gotta be this one right way. And if I don't guess the one right answer, they're gonna be like wrong.
Speaker 3:
Yeah.
Jamie Lee:
Yeah. Okay. And so when you think there's, there's probably just one right way to do this, how do you feel?
Speaker 3:
Very constricted. And then I just, I don't wanna do anything at all. I just wanna avoid
Jamie Lee:
Thinking. Yeah. Makes sense. Right? You're like, oh, there's one right way most 99.9% chance I'm gonna get it wrong.
Speaker 3:
Yeah. <laugh>,
Jamie Lee:
Of course you feel constricted. Of course you wanna avoid, of course you not wanna make decisions
Speaker 3:
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
Jamie Lee:
Yeah. Is there anything else that you notice you do in regards to your new promotion in regards to defining success?
Speaker 3:
Well, just thinking about what I was telling you. Consuming a lot of information.
Jamie Lee:
Yeah.
Speaker 3:
Trying to learn it all.
Jamie Lee:
Right. Right. Because your brain's, like, you got, it's like school <laugh>.
Speaker 3:
Exactly.
Jamie Lee:
It's, it is like a pop quiz and if you don't cram for it, you're gonna get it wrong.
Speaker 3:
Yeah.
Jamie Lee:
Okay.
Speaker 3:
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, a couple of the people that I'm managing are older white men who have a lot more years of experience. So my mind is telling me like that now I really have to like doubly get it right because I'm younger and I'm a woman and I can't fail. And so like that added pressure is not helping with thinking about creative ways or just thinking in general. It's not helping
Jamie Lee:
<laugh>. Yeah. It's so fascinating how our brains do that when we're like, oh my God, I'm gonna get it wrong. And then you start thinking about your gender and your age, like almost holding it against you.
Speaker 3:
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
Jamie Lee:
Yeah. So, I mean, all of the actions that we take, whether it's in our mind, whether it's like outward, it creates a result right. In, in context of this specific situation. Right. Even if it's just in your mind, it creates this result of you being wrong. Yeah. And you telling yourself that you are wrong. Right. You like, discount the fact that you got promoted, you discount the fact that like you have worked to this promotion that you did something right. And you've, you have a track record of making decisions, right. That led you to where you are. Like your brain just totally rejects it and continues to reject all of that evidence because it's entertaining the thought there's one right way to do this.
Speaker 3:
Yeah. <laugh>.
Jamie Lee:
Okay. So I wanna ask you what if there isn't, what if there isn't one Right way?
Speaker 3:
Yeah. I mean, even just say calling out the thought that there's one right way. I already feel more relaxed and I feel more open to possibility. And the fact that I don't even know, like of course there's no one right way to do anything. It just, it's so apparent, um, and nobody said on like, day one with manager training, this is the right way. So <laugh> like, my company hasn't even defined it.
Jamie Lee:
Right? Right. Remember, it's not about like knowing the right way. There is no perfection required. Yeah. There is no one at your company who's like holding up the, the answer card and they're like, oh, is she gonna get it right? Is she gonna get it wrong? <laugh>,
Speaker 3:
<laugh>.
Jamie Lee:
It was truth of the fact that they're all figuring it out as they go.
Speaker 3:
Yeah.
Jamie Lee:
They're all making it up as they go.
Speaker 3:
Yeah.
Jamie Lee:
What's coming up for you?
Speaker 3:
The question like, why can't I make it up then <laugh>.
Jamie Lee:
Yeah, let's do that. Why can't you make it up?
Speaker 3:
I think I'm just so used to the way that I've done it that hasn't allowed for exploration, like the perfectionist sort of, and the working really hard and over excelling and, and I haven't allowed for a lot of creativity or failure.
Jamie Lee:
Okay. What if this is the perfect opportunity to allow for creativity, allow for failure? How would, yeah. What would you be modeling as a leader of 10 people when you allow creativity, when you allow for fail? We don't even know what failure is right now. Right. It's like not even defined. We have no idea. Yeah. Like this boogeyman that we're afraid of, but let's just go with it. If you were to allow it in, in, in your process of coming up with some definitions, what would you be modeling to your people?
Speaker 3:
The same thing, which I mean, I work in software development and that's how a lot of great ideas come about is through creativity and failure. So <laugh>
Jamie Lee:
You mean you're gonna be modeling how to create like, innovative ideas? Yeah.
Speaker 3:
<laugh>.
Jamie Lee:
Okay. So I think your homework is, let's say you come up with like three variations or maybe five mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And like, just allow creativity, let it be messy, let it be new, let it seem wrong only because it's un unfamiliar and let it be open to failure. And then you, you come up with five ideas, and then you think about, okay, what does the c e o prioritize? How is this gonna help my employees? How is it gonna drive their growth? And then you get to choose which of those ideas you like best. What are your, what's your idea what, I mean, what's your thought about my suggestion?
Speaker 3:
I like it. Like, I feel like my chest is expanding and it's sort of giving me a little like, openness to see what's possible and it feels better than the approach I was taking before.
Jamie Lee:
Exactly. There is no one right way. What you really need to do is allow creativity and failure. <laugh>. Right. Brainstorm.
Speaker 3:
Okay.
Jamie Lee:
Okay. Yeah, that's your homework.
Speaker 3:
Perfect. Thank you.
Jamie Lee:
You're most welcome. All right. I am going to Who's next? We're having fun. All right. I am going to, uh, promote he, I'm sorry if I'm saying your name wrong, I'm gonna ask you to tell me. I think it's he. Yo. Okay. I'm going to promote you to panelists. Hello. Hi. How can I help you? Wait, first, how do I say your name?
Speaker 4:
Uh, he y
Jamie Lee:
He yk. Okay.
Speaker 4:
Yeah. So it was not bad. So
Jamie Lee:
<laugh>, is this a Korean name?
Speaker 4:
Right. And it's quite difficult for Koreans to pronounce, uh, in the right way. So even my parents call me just he, so you can call me. He too
Jamie Lee:
<laugh>. Okay. So he, how can I, I, I like he though, I'm gonna, I'm gonna call you my
Speaker 4:
Talk. Yes. He, he means, uh, the police and great happiness in Korean.
Jamie Lee:
Beautiful name. How can I help you?
Speaker 4:
So I'm quite trying to live up my name <laugh>, but uh, I'm actually visiting New York City and I really love this city, so I would like to work here and or just create a business maybe. So I'm just trying to meet, uh, professionals and contact them to LinkedIn. And it's not going very well. Obviously this is my third week in New York, and now I'm just, uh, thinking about the, uh, like where is where my life is going on, and somehow I feel so lost. And so let
Jamie Lee:
Me ask you a question. So you've been here in New York for three weeks,
Speaker 4:
Right?
Jamie Lee:
What was your expectation of what would happen in New York?
Speaker 4:
Well, uh, experience, uh, reexperience, like zero to one experience again in Newland.
Jamie Lee:
What does that mean?
Speaker 4:
What does that mean? So I lived in, uh, Europe, in France, and in Belgium mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And whenever I started my new life in new country, there was some kind of, uh, achievement from zero to one.
Jamie Lee:
So achievement from zero to one. Okay. Right. So I'm just noticing that, uh, zero to one. Like, I, I'm not gonna get too deep in the weeds because I wanna be able to help at least another person, but Sure. Let's notice it's rather vague, and you're comparing your past European experience mm-hmm. <affirmative> to three weeks in New York. Like, some people come to New York and they work at a goal for three decades.
Speaker 4:
Sure. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>
Jamie Lee:
And more. So what I'm hearing is like there was no specific goal. Yeah. But at least I, I don't hear a specific goal that you wanted to achieve. I think there was this like vague idea of like how you thought you would feel, right. Because of certain situations happening. You, you, you thought like you would meet people and then you would feel a sense of achievement. Right? And so right now, of course your brain is like, I feel lost. It's not going well. And so now you don't have a sense of achievement. Yeah.
Speaker 4:
Yeah. That's true.
Jamie Lee:
Yeah. And, and so I'm curious, what are you feeling right now?
Speaker 4:
Um, I want some result. I don't know what kind of result, but Yeah. Uh, I have 10 more stay to stay in New York. Okay. Before returning to Korea. So I would like to, uh, some speed.
Jamie Lee:
So what I'm hearing is that, tell me if I'm wrong, but I sense that you feel lost right now,
Speaker 4:
Right?
Jamie Lee:
Because you don't have a specific mm-hmm. <affirmative> measurable, attainable goal.
Speaker 4:
Mm. Right,
Jamie Lee:
Right. You're like, I wanna result. I don't know. I don't know what it is. I want it to happen, but I don't know what it is. So my suggestion to you is think about like, what is, what is an experience that I want to have in the next 10 days that is, you know, that is doable mm-hmm. <affirmative> for me, and then you get to decide that that is an achievement. Like for some people, just being able to visit New York itself is an achievement. Without having any goals, without having any specific result, any outcomes in mind. Just like being in New York itself is an achievement.
Speaker 4:
Oh, yeah. So it is me to decide what is the achievement.
Jamie Lee:
Yeah. And I just wanna offer, like, you don't have to do this, but I wanna offer, you can just decide me being here,
Speaker 4:
Mm.
Jamie Lee:
Me having arrived, that is an achievement of itself. And I think you would feel so much more confident in yourself to be like, yeah, I'm a person who wanted to come to New York, stay here for a month
Speaker 4:
Mm-hmm.
Jamie Lee:
<affirmative>, and I got to make connections. I got to go on the Zoom call with this person, Jamie Lee, I got to make connections on LinkedIn. Right. I have 10 more days to go, but you gotta make decisions for yourself about like, what is specific, measurable, doable, reasonable. Right. And then you also get to decide what it means for you. Does that make sense?
Speaker 4:
Yeah. But doable and doable part is quite hardest. One, because I, my imagination goes just in every branch.
Jamie Lee:
Yeah. Yeah. So remember, you have 10 days and you wanna do something sort of memorable is, is what I'm gathering. Like, you wanna do something, right? Right. Yeah. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So, so then now you have to constrain, right? Your focus mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So I have 10 days, what can I do? I'm gonna do it, and then I'm gonna decide that is an achievement. Okay.
Speaker 4:
Yeah.
Jamie Lee:
Okay. I wish you all the best here.
Speaker 4:
Yeah. Thank you. You're welcome. Mm-hmm.
Jamie Lee:
<affirmative>. Okay. All right. I think we have time for, okay. I see Valerie. I see. I don't marque Marse. Um, uh, alright, I'm going to promote Marsai first. I'm going, I apologize if I am saying your name wrong. Hello? Hello. How do I say your name?
Speaker 5:
Hello? Marsha.
Jamie Lee:
Marsha. Okay. I apologize for that. Marsha, how can I help you?
Speaker 5:
Hi. Um, well basically, I guess where I'm going next is I'm actually a business owner. I'm just starting my business and I guess I am trying to see how I can grow it and really, I guess take that first step, that first leap out there, um, to connect with, um, others in the community that I can provide a service for. And my business is around professional leadership development services.
Jamie Lee:
Okay. So do you have paying clients?
Speaker 5:
Um, well, I have potential ones that I think I can reach out to. Um, I think I'm reaching out to some homeless, uh, kids, um, through an organization and also, um, foster care system.
Jamie Lee:
Okay. Okay. So how can I help you?
Speaker 5:
I guess it's just, um, navigating around the, I guess how do you like pitch or, um, the things that you have to do to make your business successful? <laugh> is where I am. I, I had the vision, I had the strategy. Um, so it's more about the implementation on the business side, I think is where I'm lacking, so.
Jamie Lee:
Okay. So tell me, tell me why, what is your vision?
Speaker 5:
Um, the vision is to be able to help, um, women and minorities and underrepresented communities. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, so that's the foster care kids and also, um, you know, displace veterans and things like that. Those that don't regularly fall into professional leadership services out there that are paid. And so we wanna be able to, in, uh, provide a service for them to help build more future leaders. Okay. That makes sense.
Jamie Lee:
Yeah. And what is your strategy? You don't have to go into details, just like gimme like high level overview of how you're going to develop future leaders, how you're gonna help these foster care children become future leaders.
Speaker 5:
Yes. It's, um, providing like a six month program and then a network for them to have resources around them that will help them move through their career. So advocating and providing that support system, that wraparound here that allows them to move up. Um, so it's kind of like offering kind of what you're doing now, um, providing a service for us that joined today. Um, but we would, we would be doing it on a larger scale.
Jamie Lee:
Okay. So here's my suggestion. Okay. I'm just gonna, uh, jump to the actionable suggestion. An interest of time. Here's what you are gonna meet as many people as possible, okay? You go to networking events, you talk to your friends and family, you go to meetups, okay? And you are gonna tell them that you have this vision. You're gonna tell them, I have a six month program that turns foster care children into future leaders. Okay? And then you're gonna make an offer. You're gonna tell them, is this something of interest to you? Would you know somebody who can help me out? Would you know somebody who would be interested in a service like this? I guess that's more like an ask. Okay? So that's what you're gonna do. You're gonna meet as many people yes, as possible. You're gonna tell them what you do, and either you're either gonna make an offer and say, I can help you with this. I have a six month program. Or you're gonna ask them, do you know anyone who can use this? That's what you're gonna do.
Speaker 5:
Okay?
Jamie Lee:
Make sense? All right.
Speaker 5:
Yes, it does.
Jamie Lee:
All right. You've got this. I wish you all the best. Okay? I am going to
Speaker 5:
Thank you, <laugh>. Yeah.
Jamie Lee:
All right, Valerie, it is your turn. I'm going to promote you to panelist as soon as I figure out how to use my mouse.
Speaker 6:
Hi. Hi, Jamie.
Jamie Lee:
Hi, Valerie. How can I help you?
Speaker 6:
So I recently got results back from a 360 review. Okay. So I, I'm trying to reflect on some of the feedback that I received. And I guess I, what I'd like some help with is, there's some areas where I receive a very high score in a very low score for the same, you know, subject matter within the view. How do I take such conflicting feedback and use it to grow or even understand it, because I'm, I'm stuck on the, how do I understand why one person would rape me Excellent. Whereas another person does needs a, a great improvement.
Jamie Lee:
Yeah. So here's what I'm gonna offer you. Have you ever gone to a movie, you watched this with a friend, or you know, somebody, a spouse or whatever, and you and your partner, your friend, walked out of the movie theater with a completely different opinion. Has that ever happened to you? Or maybe it's like a TV show, maybe it's a piece of art. You're like, you're thinking, oh my gosh, it's beautiful, and the person next to you is like, oh, I don't get it at all. Has that ever happened to you?
Speaker 6:
Sure,
Jamie Lee:
Of course. Okay. So I want you to think about you and your performance is like a piece of work or art. Okay? And one person would be like, that's amazing. And the next person would be like, I don't get it. What would that say about this art? If you, if if we were just extend the metaphor of the art, what does that say about art?
Speaker 6:
Well, everyone has their preferences for sure.
Jamie Lee:
Yeah. Yeah. Or, um, yeah. And what does it say about art itself?
Speaker 6:
I guess it's open to interpretation, right? Yeah. View it, right?
Jamie Lee:
Yeah. Right. And so now let's bring it back to you. You got 360 reviews. Some people give you hard mics, some people give you low marks, right? What could this mean about you?
Speaker 6:
I mean, I mean, I show up differently with different people
Jamie Lee:
That you work, you work with different people,
Speaker 6:
Right? Yeah. Or I show up differently to different people.
Jamie Lee:
It could, it could, and I think it could also mean that what you do, how you show up is, is like a neutral circumstance like art hanging on wall, like a movie or film or a TV show. And people have different thoughts, different preferences, different filters, different biases. Like it could mean nothing about you.
Speaker 6:
I agree. <laugh>, I'm asked to take this feedback though, and, you know, come up with ways to improve myself. So
Jamie Lee:
Yeah,
Speaker 6:
Maybe those are areas that I don't choose <laugh>. I mean, would you recommend that, or
Jamie Lee:
Here's my recommendation. I want you to first like really consider that like what people, uh, how people interpreted what you, what what you've done is, uh, says more about them than you, and they could be, right?
Speaker 6:
Right?
Jamie Lee:
Like, you have to be willing to hold the paradox of two, two opposing thoughts at the same time. Like, it could be true that what your performance, what I'm kind of fumbling here, but what you have done in the workplace, what you have said and done is like just a neutral thing. And then they had a thought that created their interpretation and their feedback, and at the same time, there could be a kernel of truth.
Speaker 6:
Great.
Jamie Lee:
Yeah. What comes up for you when you hear me say that? I know it's kind of like, it's a lot to, but like, I think, I
Speaker 6:
Think that would make, it makes sense. Um, yeah. You know, I, I want to believe the feedback because I want to improve, right? Yeah. It's take it's figuring out how to do that, I guess.
Jamie Lee:
Yeah. Yeah. And so my, um, what I would do is, like, I would, um, the reason why I stress the neutrality of you is that like, sometimes we make the mistake of like, in internalizing this and like, oh, maybe I did something wrong. Maybe I'm not good enough. And so, um, what might it be like to just assume, okay, there could be a kernel of truth if I were to take this interpretation, where might I agree and where might I not agree? How do I want to grow? And is that gonna help me grow in the way I want to grow?
Speaker 6:
Yeah, I like that. Yeah. That, that's what I need to reflect on for sure.
Jamie Lee:
Right, right. Because, you know, at the end of the day, you're like, you are, you are like art, you're, you're, and your work is a body of art, so to speak, right? But you get to decide what is the direction I wanna take this. Did I say that right? You get to decide what direction you take this in. Yeah.
Speaker 6:
Yeah. Yeah.
Jamie Lee:
Anything else?
Speaker 6:
No, I think,
Jamie Lee:
Okay. I think you already booked a consultation with
Speaker 6:
Me. I Sure. We ever on Friday,
Jamie Lee:
<laugh>. Yeah. So, we'll, you know, we'll talk more. Yes. We'll talk more. Okay. All right. So I'm gonna, uh, put you back to attendee. All right. Thank you. Everyone who came to the very first leadership lab. And as you can see in coaching, um, I think coaching is like thought partnership. And I also think coaching is at the same time, like sometimes, uh, a gentle brain massage and sometimes a rigorous brain massage. Sometimes you will be challenged, uh, to think about things in a new way that you just hadn't thought about. And sometimes you will be delighted. Sometimes you'll be like, oh, oh, I have work to do. I, that's, that's what I hadn't done. And yeah, now I realize that's the work I have to do, right? And I wanna invite everyone who is interested in, uh, getting this coaching one-on-one to book a consultation with me where you get a full 60 minute with me. And, um, we get to create a custom coaching plan that is just for you, uh, that will be tailored to help you achieve your specific career goals. So, um, if you registered,
Speaker 7:
Okay,
Jamie Lee:
All right. So it says, if you want to grow your self-confidence and your self-advocacy skills so that it compliments and enhances your leadership skills, and you wanna get promoted, you wanna get better paid, you want to enhance your career without burning out, without spinning out, without holding yourself to an, uh, an impossible, perfectionist standard, right? That's something that we talked about. And if you want to build the muscle of, um, making decisions and figuring things out, if you wanna build a muscle of embracing more creativity, right? So that you can lead with integrity, creativity, to lead with integrity, that was, that was the theme of Emily's coaching, right? And if you want to, um, also think through, uh, leadership challenges or working with people, even when there's office politics, even when there are different opinions, uh, even when the opinions that are presented to you about your own performance is like conflicting, right?
That was the theme of Valerie's coaching today. And also, if you wanted, if you have like ambitions, uh, for the growth that you want, and you, you just wanna be held accountable so that you take specific action towards that goal, that was the coaching with Marsha today. So if that's what you want, I can help you. I invite you to book your free one-on-one consultation with me today. Uh, we can, uh, work on any specific issue that you want that is, um, that is in the way of you growing your confidence, growing your self-advocacy skills, growing your career. So you most likely got an email from me, uh, with the link. And if not, you can go to can lee.com. That's like chicken scratch can lee.com/jamie lee slash consult. And, uh, in this conversation, we co-create a custom coaching plan, and if there is a fit, then we talk about working together.
But if not, no worries. You, you will absolutely get value out of this conversation. So it's ideal for mid-career women who are wanting to advance their careers, uh, with more emotional resilience, with more self-advocacy skills. I think I'm repeating myself here. So, uh, again, I invite you to book your consult. If you don't see a time that works for you, just email me at jamie@jamieleecoach.com and we will make it work. So I tremendously enjoyed this, uh, leadership lab. I hope you have too. Um, and you probably noticed that even when, you know, you didn't have a specific problem, like somebody else getting coached here, like just watching other people get coached, like probably helped you see, um, your specific situation in a new light, you probably gained like something Oh, yeah, I, that's something that I hadn't thought of for me, or, oh, yeah, that's something that I need to do as well, right?
So, um, if you enjoy this, uh, I do intend to hold another totally free, totally open group coaching session probably in the next month. Uh, because again, I want to demonstrate my value, and also I wanna help as many women as possible get promoted, get better paid, and become better leaders who are confident at advocating for themselves as they are at advocating for other people, for their direct reports, for their best friends. Okay? So before I go, unless there is, okay, somebody ask a question. So I'm gonna answer that and then we will wrap this up. How do I get over the perception that others won't be antagonistic when I try to advocate, if I've never done that before in my life, and I'm used to thinking that they surely will, right? If you keep thinking that they surely will, you will continue to feel reluctant, feel afraid, and when you continue to think that they surely will attack you, then your brain unconsciously will look for more evidence, okay?
It will just manufacture evidence to fit the story that they're going to attack you. So just notice that, okay? And again, it's totally normal for us to have these invisible scripts, these, these thoughts that we do not intend to have, but they've sort of been programmed into us by society, by the past, by other people, right? And so I wanna suggest for you, not, not diminishing, uh, yourself, um, I, I want you to first just like noticing how often that thought comes up and just like we did with Shama, I, I wanna suggest that you start like just observing that thought pattern with just a little bit of distance and telling yourself how human of me, how human of me to think that they're gonna attack me, right? I don't know if you are a woman, I don't know if you are a person of marginalized identity, but you know, regardless, even if you are, if you are none of that, like, it's totally normal for us to think that we just don't have to believe it.
And the first step is just noticing that's a very human thought pattern. Okay. And your follow up question, would you recommend trying smaller stakes action steps as a start? Help? Yeah, that's a great idea. Anonymous. Yeah. So, um, your question is try to advocate. Okay. So my guess is that, uh, when you think about advocating for yourself, um, some of the most common worries, it's like, oh, that's too greedy, or I'm being confrontation, confrontational. I don't know what they'll say. So my suggestion for you anonymous is yeah, try, try taking smaller stake action. That's a great idea. Like, um, when you go to the, when you go to go to the restaurant, uh, try asking for an extra napkin, uh, when you, um, go to a networking meeting, just practicing. Hello, hello, my name is so-and-so. Yeah. Just like, just being a little bit more assertive. Yeah. Um, when, if you, if you do live with somebody, um, practice asking them to, uh, buy you something like really small and specific, sometimes I ask my life partner to just buy me flowers, <laugh>, instead of hoping that they didn't buy flowers, I just ask them. I'm just like, please buy me flowers. Right? So you can do something like that too. And any specific workplace examples you might be able to think of at the moment? Yeah. So workplace examples.
I I say if this thought is like so common for you, I say start practicing in your personal life and then see what happens. And, and then you can start brainstorming like, what's, what's one small way to speak up? What's one small way for me to be just like slightly more assertive? Like, you know, saying, um, saying something or raising your hand, uh, at the beginning of the zoom call or the in-person meeting instead of waiting at the end, right? Like putting your hand up. I think, I think that's one way too. Okay, great question. Anonymous. So my, again, my suggestion is it's very human of you, very human of your brain to keep thinking that you're gonna be, um, the people will be antagonistic and just start creating some distance from that thought and, and start taking action. Just practice in small, uh, small ways in your personal and your professional life. And then if you wanna third challenge and then start noticing how people do not attack you, they are not antagonistic when you raise your hand up, speak up, ask for what you want, they're like, sure, okay, no problem. And then start collecting that evidence. Excellent question. Okay. Thank you everyone for coming to Leadership Lab. Uh, feel free to let me know what you thought and you're invited to book your one-on-one consultation if You want to get started today? Okay. I will talk to you soon. Bye.