Eyewitness to Therapy
Unveiling Anxiety and the Path to Inner Peace
Have you ever held a mirror to the chaos of your past and seen it reflected in your present? Our latest episode offers just such a journey, as our brave guest opens up about a life tinged with anxiety stemming from a childhood shrouded in turbulence and the rigors of military life. We traverse together through personal chronicles of control struggles and the quest for peace amidst the storms of anxiety. Our guest's voice brings to life the burning sensations of a nervous stomach, the heart's palpitations, and the struggle to emerge from the silence that anxiety often imposes.
Brace yourself for a candid look at the repercussions of early exposure to substances and the profound panic that can set in, even years later. Our guest recounts an adolescence punctured by a harrowing encounter with marijuana, casting a long shadow over their adult life's decisions. We unpack these experiences, examining the crippling internal dialogues and the ceaseless anticipation of doom that accompany anxiety. It's a raw, revealing session that peels back the layers of coping mechanisms, from abandoning caffeine to addressing the incessant whispers of self-criticism.
The episode culminates with glimmers of hope, epitomized by the strength found in mindset shifts. We probe the possibility of shedding the weight of anxious thoughts to embrace the present moment fully. Our guest's narrative serves as a beacon, encouraging listeners to clear away the obstructions to their inner light. Join us as we extend a heartfelt thank you for the shared insights and the mutual recognition of the complex human journey we all navigate. This is not just an account of confronting anxiety; it's a testament to the resilience of the human spirit and the transformative power of embracing one's true self.
Have you ever held a mirror to the chaos of your past and seen it reflected in your present? Our latest episode offers just such a journey, as our brave guest opens up about a life tinged with anxiety stemming from a childhood shrouded in turbulence and the rigors of military life. We traverse together through personal chronicles of control struggles and the quest for peace amidst the storms of anxiety. Our guest's voice brings to life the burning sensations of a nervous stomach, the heart's palpitations, and the struggle to emerge from the silence that anxiety often imposes.
Brace yourself for a candid look at the repercussions of early exposure to substances and the profound panic that can set in, even years later. Our guest recounts an adolescence punctured by a harrowing encounter with marijuana, casting a long shadow over their adult life's decisions. We unpack these experiences, examining the crippling internal dialogues and the ceaseless anticipation of doom that accompany anxiety. It's a raw, revealing session that peels back the layers of coping mechanisms, from abandoning caffeine to addressing the incessant whispers of self-criticism.
The episode culminates with glimmers of hope, epitomized by the strength found in mindset shifts. We probe the possibility of shedding the weight of anxious thoughts to embrace the present moment fully. Our guest's narrative serves as a beacon, encouraging listeners to clear away the obstructions to their inner light. Join us as we extend a heartfelt thank you for the shared insights and the mutual recognition of the complex human journey we all navigate. This is not just an account of confronting anxiety; it's a testament to the resilience of the human spirit and the transformative power of embracing one's true self.
Hello and welcome to the Eyewitness to Therapy, the one-of-a-kind podcast that focuses on a real-life therapy situation. I'm your host Cort Curtis, psychologist and therapist, passionate about bringing you into an immersive experience of self-awareness through therapy. In each episode, we dive deep into the struggles our guests face and guide them on a journey of self-discovery and resolution. As your dedicated therapist, my purpose is to create a safe space where you can openly share and address your issues. We'll explore the power of the present moment in resolving your concerns, knowing that the past is completely over and the future is never yet. The past is completely over and the future is never yet. The key to healing lies in awareness, in being witness to your consciousness, and that's precisely what we'll uncover together in every episode of Eyewitness to Therapy. So join us as we navigate the transformative power of therapy and self-awareness. Welcome to another episode of Eyewitness to Therapy. Every individual that I interview in this podcast has volunteered to participate in a one-time therapy session, and so I'm happy to welcome a new guest today. This is the first time we have ever met, so I know virtually nothing about this person other than from a very brief questionnaire that they filled out prior to this meeting. Every guest's identity is anonymous. All therapy is centered around the guest's issues and goals. Whatever they bring forth into the session becomes the focus of our conversation, and my goal is to be helpful in the best way I can.
Cort:Gestalt therapy is all about living in the moment, and that is exactly where we start each session. I ask my guests to take a moment and allow a word or short phrase to bubble up in consciousness that simply names their here and now experience. And then I have them expound on that word what that word says of them, about them or about anything. And then I ask that they declare an intention for the session. An intention can be anything, such as what they hope to gain from the session or want help with. Declaring an intention from the outset helps frame our conversation and also serves to create a purpose and goal for our session. And then, lastly, we end each session the way we begin, with just a word that names their here and now experience.
Cort:As we come to the close of our conversation, as well as a few words about how they feel about our session. Is there a takeaway, an insight or realization that they gained from our meeting together? That's the question. So come along with us as we step into this journey of exploration. Where the conversation goes, nobody knows, but that's also the excitement of therapy, a step into the unknown of possibilities. So, without further ado, let's welcome our new guest. Welcome to our conversation here today.
Kristen:Thank you, thanks for having me. This will be fun and exciting and interesting and I don't know what to expect, but I'm here.
Cort:That's right. That's one thing about therapy we never know what to expect.
Cort:That is true work for our conversation today.
Cort:This is the first time we've met, and so I know nothing about you actually, except for a little clip that you shared in the questionnaire that I sent you, and you probably don't know anything about me except maybe doing a little research.
Cort:I don't know, but the purpose of our meeting today is really to create a space for you to bring forth anything you desire to bring forth that you might want to address or work on or explore in our meeting today, and my job is to be helpful to you in any way that I can be helpful to you. So this is the way we start each session actually, or at least one way that we start each session is what I would invite you to do right now is to reflect on yourself, your life, your situation, your relationships, your thoughts, your feelings or any area of your life that you participate in, and then, as you reflect on these areas, go ahead and speak one word or short phrase that simply names your feeling state or experiential state that you experience in these various areas, just one sentence at a time, and then go for as many times as you wish or choose, and then, when you finish there, then complete this sentence. My intention for our session today is and then fill in the blank with whatever you fill in the blank with.
Kristen:Okay, so I'm going to be reflecting on my life and just saying one word or a couple of sentences at a time, okay.
Cort:Yeah, just actually limit it to about one sentence, each or one word, a short phrase that just simply names your experiential state that you experience in those various areas.
Kristen:Starting from childhood or just.
Cort:It's open wherever, whatever you would like to reflect on. Whatever, yeah, whatever area you choose.
Kristen:Okay, I think I would start with probably childhood, and just it was chaotic, that would be the best way to describe that. Moving into adolescence, lack of control, still chaotic, and then early early adulthood gaining control, and still anxiety and chaos, but better. And then I was married early early adulthood, moved. I was in the military, so still crazy, but good, better independence. And then a little bit into marriage, had a kiddo, one son, so new experience, great. And then three years ago I started to have more anxiety and out of nowhere, just panic attacks. Out of nowhere. Obviously it's not out of nowhere, it's from somewhere, but I don't know where. So just the last three years have been living in turmoil a little bit and avoidance behavior. So that would be current state avoidant behavior. And then how was I supposed to say the sentence?
Cort:My intention for our session today is fill in the blank with something.
Kristen:My intention for the session today is to gain better insight into, maybe, why I'm feeling the way I do.
Cort:Maybe Okay, better insight into feeling the way you're feeling.
Kristen:Yeah, I have chronic anxiety and I don't know why.
Cort:Okay, all right. So anxiety is the feeling, would you say. Yeah, it is Good, yeah, so just to review a little bit of what you just did, there was, you just took a on the landscape as you reflect, on the landscape of your inner world. You simply named some of the feelings and thoughts that you experienced in these various areas. So that's perfect, and so this intention for our session today is to focus on anxiety.
Kristen:Okay, All right.
Cort:Good, all right. That really evokes an initial curiosity for me. So can you share a little bit about what you're saying? The last three years you've kind of anxiety has been present in your experience. It has.
Kristen:I think that I've probably been an anxious person most of my life, but I never had panic attacks until the last three years and I'm 29. They started when I was 26 and just about 26 or just turned 26. And they happen at random times, when they started when I was driving. The first time it happened I was driving in a car and it freaked me out. I had lost, like kind of control of my body, but no one in the car knew it was happening. It's not visible to anyone. It's a silent panic attack because I never want the attention to be on me, to be on me, and so I stopped driving for a long time and I avoided driving because I was afraid that something would happen while I was driving. And then they started happening when I was in grocery stores and in checkout lines and around people.
Kristen:And I avoid crowds. I avoid crowds. I avoid grocery shopping. I avoid being in an airplane and a bus, any anything like that. I'm okay being in a car if I'm not driving. I'm okay being at a restaurant. If it's outside, I can't be inside a restaurant, I can be. It's just that it's outside. I can't be inside a restaurant, I can be. It's just that it's very uncomfortable for me. So I avoid the uncomfortableness and I yeah, I don't know why they started happening. I don't know why.
Cort:In different situations. Anxiety shows up for you in the situations you just described.
Kristen:Yes, I think that I've had social anxiety for most of my childhood and and life because I moved around a lot as a kid and I was always like the new student and stuff, and then I have always had very stressful jobs, so that hasn't helped. But when the panic attacks first started happening I was at like a really good point in my life, so I'm not sure why.
Cort:Okay, I'm curious. So when is your anxiety an always feeling that you feel always anxious, or can you recall the last time you felt anxious in any situation? I'm curious.
Kristen:Over the last three years it has been like a constant anxiety.
Cort:Okay, so you, you live in anxiety. Yes, I do.
Kristen:And I think I do a pretty good job of concealing it and going with the flow. I'm a very patient person, but it's an uncomfortable feeling, and I am also a very sober person. I don't drink, I don't do any drugs, so there's nothing to numb it, and so I feel it constantly.
Cort:Do you feel it in this moment, as we're speaking?
Kristen:I do because I'm a little. I'm just anxious about this and I was anxious before, but it comes and goes. So once I get a little bit more used to us talking, I'm sure it'll ease a bit.
Cort:This is like the unknown, right yeah. And when you jump into the unknown it's like okay, what's going to happen here?
Kristen:Yeah, I don't know if it's because I'm like a control freak or Okay. I don't think I am, but I could be internally and not show it on the outside. I don't know.
Cort:Okay, say these words and see how they resonate. I'm a control freak.
Kristen:I'm a control freak.
Cort:Is that?
Kristen:true, it's funny because I had a therapist four, three, four years ago and she thought that I was a control freak and so I'd never thought of it that way before, and so I've always thought maybe I am. I don't know, I don't think I am.
Cort:You don't think that you're that you're. Are you controlling? Do you see yourself as controlling, or at least wanting to control?
Kristen:Not really. I would rather not have to make decisions if I can help it, and I'd rather have someone else be the one that decides things, so I don't have to think about it as much.
Cort:So I don't have to exercise my own decision making kind of thing.
Kristen:Yeah, because I think I've done a lot of decision making in my life and I think it's nice when someone else takes the reins sometimes.
Cort:Like in my hearing, I don't trust my decision making.
Kristen:I want to be able to trust my decision making Does that mean, you don't. I think I do, but I have my husband and my kiddo, but I have my husband and my kiddo and I think I've probably made some dumb decisions in the past.
Cort:I'm curious about that. Can you share with me one dumb decision you made in the past that stands out for you the most, that you consider a dumb decision?
Kristen:Okay, this is a short example, but when we were, my husband and I were living in Virginia and I got orders to move to California. It was just him and I at the time. We didn't have our son and I wanted to do it like a cheap way of moving, so I purchased, or I rented a trailer from U-Haul to pull with my car, and my car was not equipped to pull it. But I was by myself. My husband wasn't there, and so I was trying to do everything by myself, and on the way from Virginia to California, my car broke down like multiple times because it wasn't equipped to pull the trailer and my husband was very upset, so upset, upset. He was like you should have never done this. You should have talked to me about this before we made this move. But I was by myself. I was trying to make it work, so that's one.
Cort:Instead of that, a dumb decision that you make.
Kristen:I think I was being stubborn and I wanted to be able to do it by myself and take charge.
Cort:And you did take charge, didn't you?
Kristen:I did. I just should have done more research on whether or not my car could pull a trailer.
Cort:Okay. So you didn't do that, you didn't do enough research. So this is a situation where you describe yourself as having made a dumb decision, yeah, okay. So when you look at that quote dumb decision that you say you've made, how do you feel right now about having made that decision?
Kristen:It was about eight years ago or seven. Yeah, eight years ago.
Cort:Okay.
Kristen:So I think I don't think it's really, it doesn't affect my life now and so it's whatever, but I think it also makes me question anything to do with vehicles I don't mess with anymore, but you've lost trust in yourself regarding that.
Kristen:As far as vehicles go, yeah, I was never confident in my ability to handle maintenance or anything like that on a vehicle, but I guess when it comes to moving also, my husband has been like you don't get to do this anymore, I don't get to be the one to decide if we do a trailer or a truck or any of that.
Cort:So he's this is what I'm hearing, so far, at least. What I think I'm hearing is that you've lost trust because you made a quote dumb decision regarding vehicles. Let's say you now no longer trust yourself in that regard. Just in that regard yeah, okay, all right, let's come back to the anxiety just for a moment, because that's the feeling right, and so are you still feeling anxious right now, in this moment.
Kristen:I feel better, you feel better, okay, so your anxiety has subsided somewhat.
Cort:Yeah, oh, okay, what's that like?
Kristen:It's a little bit more peaceful. I don't feel as jittery, okay. So, yeah, I feel better.
Cort:Okay, so what happened to the anxiety?
Kristen:Yeah, just curious it left the building.
Cort:It left the building. Okay, what's that like for you right now? Not experiencing anxiety.
Kristen:This is what I would like my life to be like constantly. I know that's not possible, because everyone experiences anxiety a little bit here and there, but this is what my life used to be like, where I was able to just have anxiety when I'm having anxious moments instead of constant anxiety. So it feels better.
Cort:Okay, again, staying with it just for a moment. So when you feel anxious, can you describe what you actually feel on the private stage of your awareness? What's it like? How do you feel it like in your body and what are some of your anxious thoughts?
Kristen:So it's like a burning sensation in my stomach. Constantly my heart has palpitations and thoughts. I feel like my thoughts are very disconnected from my body, and so I zone out.
Cort:Can you describe the thoughts or quote the thoughts that you say to you on the private stage of your mind when you feel anxious?
Kristen:Explain what I'm thinking.
Cort:Not so much to explain what you're thinking, but quote your mind. What do you say to you when you're in the midst of feeling anxious? If you could quote your mind.
Kristen:I guess it depends on the situation, but I do doubt myself a lot.
Cort:Okay, good, so you doubt yourself. So could you quote any of your doubt thoughts that you say to you on the private stage of your mind?
Kristen:I think I would say you know, whatever you're saying doesn't make sense. Whatever you're thinking doesn't make sense. Whatever other people aren't going to make sense of what you're saying. I fear judgment. I think Okay.
Cort:Okay. So you say to you, whatever you say is not going to make sense and people are going to judge me. Basically, If I were you, I might say something like no, but I'm not going to make any sense, and if I do try to speak, people are going to judge me. Does that sound like your inner conversation?
Kristen:I'm a very quiet person in public and in like social interactions. Unless I've known someone for a very long time, I don't speak much. Because I don't. I feel like I don't articulate. In the limelight, like on the spot, I don't articulate what I would like to.
Cort:OK, yeah, that's good to see. I don't articulate what I'd like to like to. Okay, yeah, that's good to see. I don't articulate what I'd like to what I hear there is there. There are certain things that I would like to articulate, but I dare not because somebody might judge me.
Kristen:Yeah, I think so. I think that's the best way to put that.
Cort:Yeah, okay, okay, okay. Can you do you imagine that I judge you?
Kristen:I don't imagine that because of your profession and because of the setting that we're in and before we started this, I did feel a lot more at peace than I would if I was in like a work setting or if I was in a social setting, probably because I'm maybe not going to ever see you again and I don't fear judgment continuously from you. Right, in a work setting, I have to be around or talk to coworkers constantly, or my boss constantly, or friends constantly. There's that fear that if I say something stupid it's going to stick with me for a long time.
Cort:Okay, so that's what I hear. I'm afraid of saying something stupid and people might judge me.
Kristen:I think that a lot of it comes from the fact that I haven't felt myself really for the last couple of years and so, like I fear that I'm going to say something that like it's going to be taken incorrectly as well what I mean to say isn't what's actually coming out of my mouth. I feel like the amount of anxiety that I've had over the last few years has also made me like be in a state, state of derealization, where it's hard to feel feelings because I'm a little bit dissociated a little bit, and it comes and goes. So sometimes I'm very cold, and I don't mean to be, but my brain has done that to protect myself from further anxiety, and so I come off as cold, I come off as not having much emotion, but I don't want it to be that way.
Cort:How do you see yourself now in this moment? How do you see yourself now in this?
Kristen:moment, I think I'm being very, I think I'm being personable, I would. I think so I'm showing I'm being vulnerable. I'm being vulnerable, I think I'm being vulnerable, gotcha.
Cort:Yeah, I hear you, so try this sentence out and see what shows up for you. If I express myself, you might think.
Kristen:If I express myself, you might think I'm crazy.
Cort:You might think I'm crazy. Okay, anything else you might think I'm crazy.
Kristen:and anything else you might think cold and I have dry humor, so might be taken wrong Rude.
Cort:Okay, might think you're rude.
Kristen:Yeah.
Cort:Or dumb, I don't know. Do you want to know how I observe you so far?
Kristen:Yes, I would love to know.
Cort:I experience you anything but cold, oh that's good. I don't experience you as crazy.
Kristen:I experience you, oh you have to say that Crazy is a bad word in the mental health profession, right?
Cort:Really, I can hear and appreciate your spirit. I can get your spirit. I can get your spirit. There's a lightness about you, just in what you've shared here so far and your experience of anxiety. I guess what I'm hearing so far is that, yeah, you are afraid to express yourself.
Kristen:Out of fear of what others might think. Yeah, I am. I am quite shy and I used to be very expressive when I was younger. Oh, okay, you used to be very expressive. Okay, I'm really curious about that. Can you go back to a lot in live performances? And so I loved that I would write my own songs. I would perform a lot and I wrote a lot of music. I had a folder full of all of my songs that I'd written and it was like my journal. And I'm going to get a little teary-eyed here, and I didn't think I was going to get teary-eyed.
Cort:Feel free.
Kristen:I left for basic training when I was 18, and so I left all of my stuff behind, because I couldn't take anything with me to basic training. I left my music folder behind, and I don't know what happened to it. I never saw it again, and so it's like the last time I really wrote a song or ever really played guitar too, because when I got married the year after that- and what year was that?
Cort:how old were you then?
Kristen:I was 19 19 gotcha, pretty young but I we're still married, going on 10 years, or we are on 10 years, going on 11, and he's a musician and I think that he has very much taken over the spotlight from me, which is crazy to think about, because I was. I was obsessed with playing guitar and honestly, if I'm being truthful with myself, I learned how to play guitar when I was 13 because I liked him and he knew how to play guitar, and so I knew him when I was younger.
Cort:Oh, your husband, you met way back when you were 13. So gotcha Okay.
Kristen:Yeah. So yeah, way back when you were 13. So gotcha okay, yeah. So, yeah, I think he was very into music when we were first married, obviously. So I just he had music and I had work and so I lost the in my life and I lost my songbook and I lost like a lot of my self-expression, which sucks. I've tried other hobbies, I've tried other like means of expression just to have something to express myself with, but nothing's really like stuck. I have a lot of hobbies that I do for a year at a time and then I give up and I need something else. So, like a jack-of-all-trades when it comes to hobbies let's see.
Cort:I heard you say a little earlier that I'm afraid of being seen. Is that true? I'm afraid of being seen.
Kristen:I don't like the spotlight to be on. I don't like the spotlight to be on me.
Cort:I don't like the spotlight, even though back then I did.
Kristen:Yeah.
Cort:I used to love the spotlight.
Kristen:Yeah, because I felt good, I felt independent and I felt in charge of what I had going on in my life.
Cort:Did you say you felt confident?
Kristen:Yeah.
Cort:Confidence in you.
Kristen:I did feel confident. And then my job in the military I felt really good in as well. I was very confident in my job. I was very good at my job.
Cort:Curious what that was, what your job in the military was.
Kristen:It was. I was a broadcast journalist, so I did a lot of videoing and making commercials, interviewing people, working with outside media and pushing the Air Force narrative, if you will, and I really enjoyed that job. It was great and best job in the military and I was very good at it. I, as far as military jobs go, I don't have any like trauma from being in the military, but it was also a very anxiety-inducing job and I think a lot of my early stages of anxiety stemmed from the pressure of that job. As far as my adult anxiety goes, I did that.
Cort:Let me ask you this Would it make any difference to you in your life and, let's say, your anxiety, if you could somehow some way let go of your fear of what other people might think?
Kristen:I think so. Yeah, I think that the reason why I'm having the panic attacks in public is because I'm like I'm it's like a cycle in what I think. I'm not super knowledgeable as far as panic attacks go, but my theory is that it's a cycle where I'm building up this anxiety cycle and I'm thinking, oh, if I have a panic attack, people are going to see it and then I'm going to have all this attention on me and then I have a panic attack because I'm having anxiety about having a panic attack. So it's this.
Cort:You feel anxious about feeling anxious.
Kristen:Yes, but I still don't understand why the first panic attack I had was in the car. I just don't understand that at all. And it was a big one. It was the biggest anxiety attack or panic attack that I've had. It was so big that I thought that I was potentially having a seizure. I was like what is happening? Because I'd never experienced that before.
Cort:Can you describe it, the sensation that you experienced?
Kristen:So it's kind of like this energy that started from like my toes and went all the way up my body. I couldn't speak, I could hear and I was frozen in time where I didn't feel right like moving my hands and legs, and I wasn't having any issues breathing. I never have any problems breathing when I'm having a panic attack. It's just my heart goes through the roof. I get hot nauseous. I feel like I'm having a panic attack. It's just my heart goes through the roof, I get hot nauseous, I feel like I'm going to pass out. That's the gist of it. It usually lasts for about two minutes, but it's like the worst two minutes of my life.
Cort:What's so unpleasant about it?
Kristen:for you to experience those experiences. It's a moment of loss of control and I'm afraid something bad is going to happen.
Cort:I think bad's going to happen. Okay, something bad's going to happen. Okay. Can you imagine just for a moment the worst of the worst that you imagine could happen?
Kristen:It's so funny because, like, when I'm driving, obviously the worst of the worst would be crashing my car, but when I'm in like a public space where I'm just like standing in line or at a restaurant, the worst of the worst is just passing out. That's not that big of a deal, it's really. And I've had this conversation with myself. I've thought, Christina, what are you, what are you thinking? Why are you so anxiety ridden about passing out? There are people out there with severe disabilities and severe issues where they have things going on in public all the time Like why are you so worried about passing out in public? Why?
Cort:Why Do you have an answer to that question?
Kristen:Just the attention that would be on me.
Cort:Attention. Okay, I'm afraid of the attention I might get attention, and also I'm afraid of other people's judgment of me.
Kristen:For sure, and I think another reason that I'm scared is I have a five-year-old and when I'm out and about with him and just me and him I'm fearful that I'll pass out and something bad will happen to him, like he'll run off and get hit by a car, or like someone will be like where's your mom? And that's what I'm scared of.
Cort:That's what you're afraid of, but that's never happened no that never happened, okay no, but you imagine that, yeah, that would be the worst of the worst, or one of the worst things you imagine could happen, if you really lost all control and somebody saw how anxious you were.
Kristen:Yeah, yeah, that's what I imagine. I've only ever passed out once from having a panic attack, and I was 12.
Cort:Twelve.
Kristen:Yeah, and it's interesting because that was the only time I ever had a panic attack before three years ago I see there was a huge gap of time between that and the last three years, so I don't know why?
Cort:all right, as you're sharing. It's certainly evoking my curiosity here. So could you go back to 12 years old at that period of your life? Can you describe what that period of your life was like in your world, in your life, your situation, perhaps your family, school and so on?
Kristen:We had just moved to probably the 12th place that I'd lived in and I was still able to go to the same school that I had for the last few years, which was nice, because at that point I'd been to 10 schools and didn't really want to have to change schools again. So I'd been at that school for three years at that point or no, two years Nothing really crazy was going on in my life as far as I wasn't being bullied, I wasn't having any issues at school. I was always a very good student.
Cort:Do you remember the moment that you experienced that anxiety? What was occurring in the moment?
Kristen:I do. I was doing a bad thing, okay.
Cort:Tell me about the bad thing you did, if you don't mind.
Kristen:Yeah, absolutely.
Cort:I'm curious.
Kristen:I had smoked weed.
Cort:Okay, 12 years old smoked weed Okay.
Kristen:Yep, and my dad? He was a big pothead. So I had stolen some weed from him and I had gone to hang out with some friends and we all were engaging in illegal activities at the time, and that wasn't the first time that I had ever partaken in that activity?
Cort:How old were you when you first partook?
Kristen:Curious. I can't even remember. I think I was 10 or 11. It was, yeah, and I had some friends that were a little bit older than me they were 12 when I was 10. And they had bad parents and we would all be in the same room. And but the thing is is my parents they were big potheads and they would smoke inside the house when I was little, so I was pretty much constantly contact high my entire childhood, right, so it wasn't really that abnormal. Obviously I shouldn't have been smoking weed at that age, which is terrible, but I, since I had that panic attack, never touched it ever again, never because I was so afraid okay.
Cort:So when you go back to the moment you experienced that panic attack, like where were you, who was there and what happened in the moment that you that panic attack emerged- yeah.
Kristen:So I had walked to some friend's house, it was snowy and we were outside, we had just taken a few pops and we were walking back to their house and I was walking up a hill and I blacked out, totally blacked out, for I don't know how long. It must have been like 10, 15 seconds, but I could not recall where I was. I was feeling very strange, very dissociated. I kept putting snow on my face because I couldn't feel like my body. I kept asking the same things over and over again and my friend had to walk me home, which was a long walk, and my mom didn't know at the time that's what was going on. She thought that I was drunk because I was just so weirdly out of it not how most people are when they smoke weed and then I continued to be out of it for a few months.
Kristen:I was dissociated for a few months. It really messed me up and I started looking into like, why am I feeling this way? What is is going on? And so that was the. That was like the first and last time or first time I ever had a panic attack, last time I ever touched weed, and so I always associated getting high with that feeling. So I never wanted to do it again. But then when I started having panic attacks three years ago, I was like, did I accidentally ingest weed or something? Because that's what it felt like to me. I thought, did someone like slip me a brownie or a cookie or something? Because that was the exact same feeling.
Cort:Felt stoned.
Kristen:Yeah.
Cort:Felt stoned okay.
Kristen:And I have continuously felt messed up for three years. So I'm thinking why do I feel like it's a weird association that I've had with, like panic attacks and weed but I don't smoke weed. I stopped drinking coffee two months ago Cause I thought maybe my cortisol levels are shot from too much caffeine, and I think it's helped a little bit. I don't drink alcohol anymore because I used to drink, but when I started having all the anxiety over the last couple of years, it just became worse because it would like numb the anxiety. And then when I wasn't drinking, it was a full rush of feelings when I'm sober and I also had a panic attack when I was, I had a beer or two and I had a panic attack and that was a terrible feeling. Having a panic attack while slightly buzzed not a good feeling at all, Super strange feeling. So, yeah, I was out in public and so I was like didn't want to deal with it anymore.
Cort:Okay, all right, yeah. One one thing that I'm again there Okay, all right, yeah. One thing that I'm again curious about is your inner conversation that you experience when you're in the midst of feeling this anxiety, and I guess one of the things that stands out for me that you get into is something bad's going to happen. Is that right?
Kristen:Yeah.
Cort:Something bad's going to happen, so I've got to brace myself for whatever bad thing I'm imagining is going to happen. I better brace myself, basically.
Kristen:Yeah, would you say that? And yes, that's exactly it, and it prevents me from living my life.
Cort:Exactly Right, yes, it's awful.
Kristen:I've been stuck in this mindset for three years. Going on, three years. July will be three years and I feel like I get pretty down on myself sometimes because I have a-.
Cort:Okay, hold on with that one. I get down on myself. So I'm really curious about that. How do you get down on yourself? Again, looking at your inner conversation or inner monologue, what do you say to you that expresses you being down on yourself? Can you quote your mind?
Kristen:Yeah, Christina, get your shit together.
Cort:Get your shit together okay.
Kristen:Because I'm a mom.
Cort:Well, hold on. Anything else that you say to you other than christina, get your shit together you're taking happy moments away from your kid. You're taking happy moments away from your kid.
Kristen:Okay, anything else you're unable to depend on yourself.
Cort:You're unable to depend on yourself. Okay, and you're?
Kristen:unable to be depended on by anyone else.
Cort:You're unable to be depended on by anyone else. Okay, yeah, okay. That's an expression of how you come down on yourself, those thoughts. Would it make any difference to you if you could somehow some way eliminate or let go of those thoughts?
Kristen:Yeah, I think so. I think I'm doing okay, despite the way that I'm feeling.
Cort:Okay.
Kristen:And I could tell myself that all day, every day, and I don't know if my true feelings whatever.
Cort:But you're doing okay.
Kristen:Yeah, despite feeling anxious Say what.
Cort:You're doing okay, despite feeling anxious.
Kristen:You're saying yes, I think I hold it together pretty well, mm-hmm, despite not feeling confident being in public, because I do have months and months at a time where I don't go anywhere. I stay home and luckily we live in a modern world where I'm able to accommodate for my mental health feelings Like instead of going grocery shopping, I can do a grocery pickup, so that's great. So I'm not exactly like neglectful or Okay. You're not, I'm not.
Cort:Well, real quickly. So let's talk. Just what is anxiety? In general, you're expressing it, but you mentioned control. I'm afraid of losing control. I'm afraid of not keeping it together kind of thing, or something terrible is going to happen. Live in the imaginary future. This could happen. I've got to do everything to prevent or control that imaginary event from happening. We will freeze ourselves basically. In other words, as you said earlier, we don't give ourselves freedom to be or to find out what the actual future would hold for us. Do you know what Mark Twain said? Which one? Mark Twain said my whole life has been about worrying about things that never happened yeah, that's the definition of anxiety, right there exactly, yeah, and that that's one of the ideas.
Cort:Like you said, you're afraid of feeling afraid or anxious about feeling anxious, and you put yourself into this freeze mode in terms. In other words, there's no freedom to be. I can't allow myself to to find out the truth or what may happen, so I'm continually trying to brace myself from the worst of the worst kind of thing. Again, coming back to we'll consider this also is that what anxiety has a lot to do with our thinking, what we think or imagine and perhaps what we tell ourselves about ourselves, kind of thing. And when you consider these thoughts that you think again, if you could let these thoughts go, would it make any difference to yourself and your life and perhaps your anxiety? Oh, absolutely Okay, but what possible difference? Absolutely Okay, but what possible difference? Christina's going through life free of anxiety, free of fear, free of doom and gloom what possible difference?
Kristen:would it make to yourself and your life if you were going through life free of that? You're feeling lighter and freer, obviously, and just being able to smile and enjoy every moment and not be so like messed up after a panic attack like I. I think that's the worst part is not necessarily the panic attack part, but how messed up I feel for weeks or months after because I feel so detached and that's the part that is really bothersome to me because it's really hard for me to bring myself back to reality. But if the panic attack doesn't happen, then that doesn't happen. So getting rid of or, yeah, like getting rid of the panic attack or getting rid of all that anxiety that builds up to the panic attack is probably the step for me that I need to focus on, but also not worrying so much about the things that lead to the panic attack.
Cort:Okay, so say these words and see how they resonate. I produce my own anxiety.
Kristen:I produce my own anxiety.
Cort:I produce my own anxiety. Is that true? Yes, agreed. Okay, all right. So, given that I produce my own anxiety, is it within the realm of possibility that I could let these anxious thoughts go? Is that possible?
Kristen:I would love it. Yes, I would love to be able to let things go and just not dwell.
Cort:I have a rumination problem where I don't know how to stop it. You don't know how to stop it right're.
Kristen:So you're trying to stop it right. So well, distraction. I I need to distract myself and so I I do, you know, try distracting myself, but it just I dwell and things just build and it's a problem.
Cort:Yeah, yeah, I hear that, yeah, yeah. We're also looking at what, what creates it? It's what you're thinking, it's your imagination, and we're talking about the possibility. If you could let go of these thinkings, what difference it might make to your life. You'd be a happier human being right, yeah human being. So, seeing that you're the that you produce your own anxiety, is it within the realm of possibility that you could again the same question? Let your anxious thoughts go go?
Cort:yeah, I want to be able to do that okay, all right make me better and make me a better person okay, all right, we'll see, seeing that it's possible to let your these anxious thinkings go. Do you notice any fear or resistance to letting them go?
Kristen:Absolutely not. I want them to go away. I want them all to go away. Are you willing to let them go? I want to say yes, I want to. I am willing to let them go. I'm physically willing to let them go. I don't know if my brain is willing to let them go. I want my brain to be willing. You want?
Cort:your brain to be willing to let them go.
Kristen:Mm-hmm Let them go.
Cort:Okay, yeah, okay, all right, coming back to this present moment does any other time but now exist, by the way.
Kristen:Any other time, but now, mm-hmm, no, now, no, yes, but no, the past is completely over, isn't it? It is, and I'm a firm believer in not dwelling on the past, because there's nothing you can do to change what has happened. You can only change how you respond in the now and in the future.
Cort:Exactly.
Kristen:You can take the past as a learning lesson and move forward. I try not to have any regrets or any qualms about what has happened. Just try to change the way I handle things going forward.
Cort:Does the future exist?
Kristen:I think the idea of the future.
Cort:It's an idea isn't it, but does it exist.
Kristen:That's a very interesting question. That's a philosophical question.
Cort:Let's look at the truth of it. Does the future exist? Does tomorrow exist? Yes, oh, it does. Tomorrow exists.
Kristen:Yeah, because we're going to go to sleep and wake up. Time is man-made right.
Cort:We're going to Everything is we're going to You're going to do, is we're going to we're going to you're you're going to do something right after this conversation and you're going to do something this evening and tomorrow and so on. Yeah, but the truth is, you're not doing those things right now, are you?
Kristen:no, you're just planning for it, essentially planning, it's all a planning, but the actuality of the future never exists, does it? No, I would say no, then With that, everything's in the now, and so when you're dealing with what you've got going on, you can only really handle it in the now.
Cort:Exactly, yeah. So, coming back to this present moment, are you aware of any anxiety at all in this moment, right now?
Kristen:I feel better.
Cort:Okay.
Kristen:I don't think no, I'm feeling okay, I'm feeling better better.
Cort:Okay, try this just as a little experiment. If you would Try to consciously, if you would bring back an experience of anxiety since you're the creator of anxiety anyway See if you can actually bring back the experience or the feeling of anxiety, at least just for a moment.
Kristen:Okay, I don't think I can get my stomach to hurt again, but I can at least think about something anxiety-inducing.
Cort:Okay, okay. So are you present to any amount of anxiety right now at all?
Kristen:Yeah.
Cort:Okay, all right. So go ahead and see, without trying to figure out how. Go ahead and just see if you could let that anxiety go just for now. Okay, because like right now I don't have to deal with the thing that's anxiety inducing. Okay, consider the thing that you have to deal with. It that's anxiety inducing is your thoughts okay that's true wherever you are. It's your. It's not the situation, necessarily, is it? I know you assign certain situations as more anxiety-producing than others, but is it not your thinking that produces that anxiety? Yeah, yeah.
Kristen:Unknown. It's always the unknown.
Cort:Oh, exactly that's the thought of the unknown. Exactly, it's the thought of the unknown. Oh, exactly, that's what the thought of the unknown. Exactly, it's the thought of the unknown. Consider this, that the unknown. There's nothing to fear about the unknown.
Kristen:Yeah, I think I used to really believe that before I had a kid. I really did. I was very free-sp, very, very just light. But having a kid like totally changes your brain into thinking about so many scary things. Yeah, yeah, I think I've just internalized a lot of that, yeah.
Cort:Yeah, that is to consider. That's getting back to what we do to produce our own anxiety. Is we get into imagining the worst of the worst situations and I think with you I'm hearing, okay, yeah, maybe I'll just lose control and this may happen and that may happen, and then you also end up coming down on yourself right, beating yourself up, kind of thing. You get into that thinking. And so we're talking about the possibility Could I let those thinkings go or let those thinkings flow? We're talking about the possibility of releasing these thoughts and to recognize that you have a say-so over your thinkings. It's not a matter of trying not to feel anxious. It's really a matter of letting go of your thoughts that produce the anxiety. Yeah, imagining the fear of losing control and so on, and and how horrible and terrible that would be if that occurred, and how I opened myself up to other people's judgments and they would think this or that of me.
Kristen:Yeah, and what's funny is I in a normal situation setting. I don't typically care what people think of me. As far as what I'm wearing, what I like, what I do for work, how I am as a parent, I don't care what people think.
Cort:That's great.
Kristen:I'm just afraid of passing out and having people worry about me.
Cort:I hear that I'm afraid of passing out and people worrying about me. I don't know.
Kristen:I hear that I'm afraid of passing out and people worrying about me.
Cort:So if I could let go of the fear of passing out and people worrying about me, that might make a difference.
Kristen:Yeah.
Cort:I would think so.
Kristen:Yeah, I feel like that would help me with my avoidant behavior, because for a year and a half I didn't drive a car, I didn't go into a grocery store, I didn't hardly left the house.
Kristen:So if you can imagine just how miserable that is as a mom too, and not being like at the time my kiddo was three or two, three, four, five all that time just not being able to like, have the courage to to do what I wanted to do as a parent. And before all this happened I was. I was just such an active mom. We would go to amusement parks, we would go to the zoo, we would go to aquariums, that kind of thing, no limit, like I was all about everything. And then just one day, like the panic attack started and it made me just want to be home all the time for fear of my own safety and my kids safety, and just it completely changed the way I am as a parent and that's why I feel down on myself. And luckily I have a husband who is understanding of my issues and he has really stepped up in being the one that takes our kiddo places or engages with him out of the house and that kind of thing.
Cort:But it still makes me feel a bit of a failure of a mom. Another thing about, yeah, certainly, being a, a mom, being a parent, changes your whole life. Your life is not the same and so all kinds of thoughts and fears and the mother in you gets activated and protective and so on. So yeah.
Cort:I know we could go on exploring this probably a little further, but we are coming to the end of our conversation here, and so let's the way we end is a little bit the way we begin, and that is to address the question. What am I experiencing in this moment? To address the question, what am I experiencing in this moment?
Kristen:coming to a close, and then a few words. Just how do I feel about this conversation we just had. What I'm experiencing in this moment is insight.
Cort:I think that I have gained some insight into the why and how I can prevent some things in the future, prevent the thoughts of anxiety, thoughts about anxiety, of anxiety. And what was the next part?
Kristen:Sorry, how I feel about this conversation we just had. How I feel about this conversation is this was very enlightening and nice and much better than I anticipated. I didn't expect it to be conversational I did, but this is more conversational than I expected and I think you're this is me answering this question with a question but are do you see clients on a regular basis or are you typically more focused on the podcast side of things? I see clients on a regular basis. I think you're, from what I can tell, very beneficial to people. It's hard to find a good therapist and just from the conversation that we've had in the last hour, I could tell you really care and you really listen and you actually want to help people, get to the root of what's going on with them. I've had quite a few therapists in the last few years and one of them was great, one of them was terrible, so I've had some spectrum there. But I can tell you I truly have a gift for therapy, which is nice to see.
Cort:Thank you, I appreciate it.
Kristen:Thank you, this has been fun. Thank you, this has been fun.
Cort:Yeah, anxiety is typically the anxiety and guilt are typically the two things that bring people into therapy.
Kristen:Yeah, a lot.
Cort:It's at the heart of many things, so I appreciate your openness to express your feelings here to a stranger.
Cort:Yeah, so I appreciate your feedback that you just gave, and so what I want for you, I guess, is to continue to call it mindful, being mindful of, in other words, seek not to try to escape your anxiety. Learn to be present to it, to the experience of it, because that will more and more enable you to move through it, versus trying to escape it, because that's one of the things that keeps certain feelings going is the trying not to feel it, and I often. You know what is therapy about really? I summarize it very simply Therapy is about unconcealing, revealing and dealing with your feelings. Did you get that?
Kristen:I like that.
Cort:Okay, yeah, so you've unconcealed your anxiety and you dealt with it a little bit here. You revealed it to yourself and I know it's familiar to you. And then what is the dealing with feelings is basically, it's a learning to accept, accept my feelings the way they are, to feel my feelings basically, and to move through your feelings. One of the statements that was at the heart of a lot of therapy is the way out of feelings is through them.
Kristen:Yes.
Cort:Yes, so you need not be afraid of your anxiety. Learn to make friends with your anxiety, and not as an enemy, kind of to yourself.
Kristen:I think I do need to start looking at it more that way, as this is a part of me and I can accept it and I can just deal and go through life with this. It's part of my personality at this point, it's just who I am.
Cort:Yeah, yeah. The other thing is, I see your light. Thank you, you're a light. Yeah, it comes through. I try I try to be. Well, you don't even have to try. You know, your light is your light. You know, the more you're able to move through all the stuff that hides it, you know, then your light just naturally shines.
Cort:Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah all right, very good, great, very nice to meet you and interview you and I wish you well and I wish you continued growth in your journey. This human journey and it sounds like anxiety is your thing to work through yes, it's my thing.
Kristen:I've appreciated this so much. Thank you for your time today.
Cort:This was great All right, very good, okay, go in peace.
Kristen:Okay, you too, bye.
Cort:Thank you for listening to this edition of Eyewitness to Therapy. If you, the listener, desire to be interviewed in a similar fashion as this one, feel free to contact me at courtcurtis at yahoocom. Peace, love and presence.