The Lab Safety Gurus
Discover the secrets to enhancing laboratory safety without the hassle of navigating complex regulations and modifying established practices.
Tune in to the enlightening discussions led by the knowledgeable Dan the Lab Safety Man and infectious disease behaviorist Sean Kaufman. Together, they explore a wide range of lab safety subjects on a weekly basis.
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The Lab Safety Gurus
Leadership by Action in Laboratory Safety Cultures
What defines a true leader in the high-stakes world of lab safety? Join us as we unravel this question with insights from my guest, the founder of the Leadership Institute for Biosafety Professionals. We tackle the nuanced roles of leadership in creating and maintaining a robust safety culture, and share personal experiences that highlight the intricate dance of juggling safety with other managerial responsibilities. Discover whether a leader is shaped by their title or their actions, and how even the most well-intentioned leaders can inadvertently impact the safety protocols within their labs.
In a thought-provoking exchange, we delve into the crafting of personal leadership statements based on the powerful LEADS framework—Listen, Empathize, Adapt, Demonstrate, and Serve. This episode isn't just about theoretical concepts; it's an actionable call to step up and embody the qualities of servant leadership in the lab, regardless of your position. We invite you to reflect on your role in upholding safety standards and consider the profound impact of a well-articulated leadership mantra. It's an episode for those ready to take ownership and inspire a culture of safety and responsibility.
Welcome to the Lab Safety Guru's Podcast. I'm Dan Scungio.
Speaker 2:And I'm Sean Cawthon, and together we're providing safety insights for those working in laboratory settings. Doing safetytogether.
Speaker 1:Sean, it is great to be back talking with you Today. I want to talk about something that is kind of a broad topic. The title of the topic I want to talk about is 5 Minutes with a Lab Leader.
Speaker 2:Well, that's aokay. Well, do you mind if I start with a question? Yeah, please do. How do you define a leader? I think that's where we got to start.
Speaker 1:Okay, you just threw me way off. That's a way off topic. No, it's not really. What is a lab leader? Is it the lab manager? Is it the director? Is it the medical director? Is it the PI? Is it the professor? Is it the? What is a lab manager? Or is itor a lab leader? Is it somebody who's in charge of a certain section of the lab?
Speaker 2:That's a good question when I think of a lab leader, go ahead. Oh no, I was thinking, is it a position of authority? I mean that's.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what do you think? Yeah, it doesn't have to be so. In my career in the clinical lab, I will watch people who are working in the lab who are not in official leadership roles, and I'll watch to see whether or not they own their job. And when they start to show ownership, they take ownership, they go above and beyond. Then I start to think, hmm, this is a leader in their group and they're going to be a future leader in title before too long, because I'm going to mentor them, I'm going to keep them going on their trajectory. So being a leader can becan come with an official title, or maybe it doesn't.
Speaker 2:Yeah. What I wonder is if we were in a classroom, dan, which you and I both love if we were out there and we were to say alright, how many of you have seen someone who has a leadership position but is not acting like a leader? How many hands, yeah.
Speaker 1:I know how many hands would go up, dan Both of mine are up right now.
Speaker 2:I'll tell you what we have? A pandemic of absentee leadership. I mean, we really do.
Speaker 1:Leadership. Absenteeism is huge. So that's one of the reasons I wanted to talk about this today, because I have worked with several different laboratory leaders. I'm a lab safety officer. That is my job, and sometimes when I work with a lab leader and they support lab safety, it makes my job so easy.
Speaker 1:The lab looks great, things are going well, but you know, I have oversight in my job of over 20 laboratories and that means 20 different official leaders, managers, whatever and to think that they would all have the same level of support for safety, that's just not reality. So when I talk about something like five minutes with a lab leader, I'm like trying to talk to somebody who's going to be able to influence the safety culture in the laboratory. But here's something else I always teach, sean I teach this to everybody in my consulting business and that is if you're a leader, you better be leading lab safety, but if your leader is not somebody who supports lab safety, this is what you can do to make a difference for safety in your laboratory. I have to teach both, because that is the reality Leadership is absent or they're not supporting lab safety in so many labs.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, I can back up everything you're saying by just reminding people who have children. I mean, look, your house is as organized as how engaged the parents are. If you're engaged in your children's lives, then your children are going to be just fine, but if you're not, then the children are going to lose track, they're going to lose their focus, they're going to lose their ways, and so, when you look at it, leadership it's a human function. We see it with parents, we see it with coaches, on teams. Dan, the reality is is how engaged leadership is is a huge factor in how well safety is going to be implemented throughout the organization.
Speaker 1:So, sean, where do you give grace when you need to? I always try to think of the person and all that they have to do. And people do so much damage to their lab safety culture. Some leaders damage it so badly they don't intend to. They're, you know, running into the lab, they've got an emergency, they have to talk to somebody in the lab, and so they run in there. They don't notice Johnny's chewing gum. They don't notice Jane doesn't have a lab coat on and they really need to talk to Sharon about something they do, and they run back in their office. Now they didn't intend to do that. Their plate is full, they're busy, but by not noticing those safety issues and not saying anything about them.
Speaker 1:They just did so much damage to their safety culture unintentionally, so I try to give them grace, because I've been a laboratory manager, I know what it's like to have so many things in your plate and I have seen safety issues like PPE issues and I always note it in my head. You know what? I think I'm going to address that later because there's a bigger issue. Right now. This person's wearing mesh sneakers, but I really got to fix the schedule and I need them on my side. Right now I can't be talking to them about their sneakers. I sort of understand that, having been in that position. But what do you do? Where do you draw the line?
Speaker 2:This is, yeah, this is how do you make?
Speaker 1:sure that safety is always on your plate.
Speaker 2:Well, this is tough. I think the example that you provided is a very challenging one, because you're almost expecting a human being to be fully aware of the environment and the staff within the environment, and if they're not, if their awareness levels aren't there, then we evaluate their leadership skills and capabilities. On that and I know you're not alluding to that, but you're right, sometimes that can happen. Dan, my idea of safety leadership is unique. It may be different, and what I mean by that is that I believe that a safety officer has the sensitivity to see the things that you're talking about. So, for example, I was at a wedding once and there was an entomologist who was there and I was outside and this entomologist was talking about whether or not I heard the crickets. And I said, yeah, I hear the crickets. And the entomologist said do you know? There's like 60 different crickets and I'm like what are you talking about? I hear a cricket and they're like no, no, no, these are different crickets. And it's like that individual's been trained to actually listen to the differences. A safety officer has been trained to detect potential risks in the lab, and so when I think of leadership, laboratory leadership I think of the safety professional being able to say, hey, we've got concerns, and if the staff in the lab don't listen to the safety officer, the leadership comes down and makes them listen. The leadership comes down and supports and backs up safety. The leadership demonstrates a commitment to safety not just with words but with actions, and so that's kind of.
Speaker 2:I believe everybody can demonstrate leadership qualities. But a leader, like a child, can act like a parent, but in the end a parent still is going to have to be a parent, and so I believe everyone within a lab has to demonstrate leadership qualities. Meaning, if it's only going to take, for example, dan and I don't want to dominate this but if someone's eating a chicken biscuit in the lab and there are five people watching this person eat it and it takes the safety officer to come in and say you shouldn't be eating a chicken biscuit, we have a lack of leadership quality in the lab. So it's those other five people should be saying you shouldn't be eating a chicken biscuit in the lab. So to me, leadership is the force that holds people accountable to the expectation of the organization, and everybody else must have leadership qualities, but leadership is critical for safety.
Speaker 1:It is, and that's why, if I had five minutes with a lab leader who is in a leadership position, I'd be having a conversation with them about that and asking are they supporting safety in the way that they should? In that way, because I see that a lot. I'm a lab safety officer. I'll walk into a laboratory and I'll see a vendor working on an analyzer, trying to fix it, and they're not wearing a lab coat. So I immediately walk up to them and I say what size lab coat can I get you? Because that kind of a statement automatically tells them okay, I have to be wearing a lab coat, there's no question about it. They tell me their size and when I bring it to them, I apologize to them, like I'm sorry that nobody else in the lab who is watching you do this work offered you PPE. That's on us, and I say it loud enough usually when other people are around in the lab, because I want them to understand that should be our culture.
Speaker 2:What a beautiful yeah, what a beautiful yeah, and often it's sad that I have to do that Well it's a beautiful approach, though, Dan. I mean really it's a beautiful approach because there is no option given. It's almost like if you want your child to wear shorts for the day, you say, what color shorts do you want to wear, and the child doesn't even know, because they've got some type of control. So now it's a beautiful approach.
Speaker 1:It really is. Yeah, I wish it would work for other kinds of PPE and other safety issues. I'm trying to find that same powerful culture statement that there's no choice for other things, so maybe we could have a podcast about that one day to come up with some other good ideas.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. If I had five minutes with a leader and I do, I mean, and the work that I do I am very fortunate I get to talk to several leaders of large scale operations. One of the greatest returns of investment in safety, dan, is leadership presence on the front line. So if I had five minutes with a laboratory leader, I would say get out, get to the front line, talk to your staff, ask them are you having any safety challenges? Are you having any concerns? Do you have any issues? I mean, literally flatten the organization by getting out as a leader and talking to your front line staff. Yeah, what do?
Speaker 1:they call that in high reliability organizations rounding to influence Leaders. That's a HRO tool. But you're not influencing unless you're modeling. And so if you're a leader and you're rounding with your staff, with whoever's in the lab, then you need to make sure you're modeling those safe behaviors. I'm going to be in the lab coat holding a huddle. I'm going to be in the lab holding a huddle. Put on a lab coat. I'm going to be doing some work where I'm at the counter and I'm going to be touching some things. Put on some gloves and a lab coat. You don't model the behavior. Wear the correct shoes, wear the correct pants and the lab.
Speaker 1:I was performing an inspection in a lab and I was finding a lot of safety issues. And the safety officer was with me and she turned to me and she was very upset and she said Dan, why aren't people doing the right thing in this lab? And I looked at her and I said are you often in these labs as the safety officer? And she said yeah, and I said, ok, but today you're wearing complete pants and mesh sneakers. What is the message you're sending? You're walking through all the labs in clothes that aren't even acceptable in a laboratory. So, modeling, if you're going to round to influence, make sure you're modeling to model the right behaviors, model the use of PPE and engineering controls, whatever it is you need to be doing as a leader Also, too.
Speaker 2:What I'm hoping, dan, is that maybe somewhere out there, somebody listening to this may say maybe the leader at my organization could benefit from this podcast, and if anybody receives something like that, I'm hoping that they also leaders can promote psychological safety, meaning I want leaders and organizations to promote difficult conversations. There are so many times, dan, that I hear people say hey, sean, I, our leaders, are unengaged. They don't even engage like I have to be. I feel like I have to be a police officer and I keep reminding people if you're safety, you're not a police officer. Your job is to say to someone I am witnessing things that are or a hazard, and I'm communicating with you about those things. I'm hoping that you choose to hear, do or respect what I'm saying.
Speaker 2:But a lot of people will say no, it's human nature, dan. I perceive this risk to be differently. I don't see this as a risk. I don't see jumping out of a plane with a parachute as a risk. I don't see handling a poisonous snake at a risk. I would say that's crazy. But they don't see that it's human nature to have different risk perceptions and it's also human nature to have different risk tolerances, an organization right protocols to, to control for that. And so I would say that you know, a safety officer's job is to identify hazard and communicate it and hope that staff Choose to adhere to it and if they don't, then they have to turn to leadership to get that assistance. So I hope leaders promote a psychologically safe culture, a culture where Anybody can have difficult conversations, even when they disagree. They can bring those in those, those conversations to the forefront and, you know, sometimes even just agree to disagree.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I would say to any anybody who's a safety leader out there, and no matter what position you officially have, if you have questions about how to deal with an issue, how to deal with a particular issue, how to support a certain safety issue, how to introduce it or how to talk to somebody About that, please feel free to pick up the phone or email Sean or myself. We will both be glad to talk to you about this issue and be able to help you with that. There are ways to do that. There are good ways to do it, there are bad ways to do it, but you don't want to ignore it and not be a leader of safety in your laboratory.
Speaker 2:Well, dan, I used to teach, we, we ran, I developed, I was the founder of the leadership Institute for biosafety professionals Many years. I don't know if you knew that, but I, we ran that program for many years and we even joined APSA and delivering that program. But one thing we do at the beginning of each of those programs, stan, is we'd have all the staff write their leadership statements, and what we would do if you wanted to write a leadership, if anyone out there wants to be a leader in safety, to write a leadership statement, you just take leads L, because you know leaders lead or leads LE AGS, and you find a word for each, a verb for each, for each letter. So, for example, dan, mine is a leader listens, a leader empathizes With those they serve, a leader adapts to the environment.
Speaker 2:A leader demonstrates, like you said, okay, and a leader serves. That's my S. So my, my leadership statement is I will, or my commitment is I will listen, empathize, adapt, demonstrate and serve. And you can change any of those letters to whatever you want. But that's kind of how you can develop your leadership statement, just some easy exercise that you can do.
Speaker 1:Yep, that is beautiful and I think if you're listening out there, that is something you should do so you can figure out what that is for you. Write it down, come up with it, just massage a little bit, make it right for you and put it on the, on the on the board behind you so that you can see it and remember that and be reminded of that every day. Lead safety, please, in your laboratory. We urge you to do that. It's so important for the people you work with. You should be a servant leader and you should be protecting those who are working in your lab. So stay safe and stay safe everyone. And If you, if you want five minutes with us, let us know. We'll be glad to help.
Speaker 2:We are the lab safety gurus, dance gun Joe and Sean Kaufman.
Speaker 1:Thank you for letting us do lab safety together.