More Than Anxiety

Ep 99 - Healing Trauma Through Art Therapy with Thuli Wolf

• Megan Devito • Episode 99

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Join me as I chat with art therapist Thule Wolfe about her incredible journey from medicine to healing through art.

Discover how painting her way through a personal crisis led her to help others find joy and healing through creativity.

Thule shares practical tips on using art therapy to manage anxiety, boost confidence, and overcome life challenges.

Get ready to feel calm, confident, and inspired to get creative.

Find Thuli on Instagram
or at www.thuliwolf.com
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You know you're overwhelmed, burned out, sick to death of work but also trying to do everyting for everyone at home. TAKE THIS QUIZ to find out why you're so overwhelmed and what to do about it.

Megan Devito:

Welcome to the More Than Anxiety Podcast. I'm Megan Devito and I help ambitious women break out of the anxiety cycle that keeps them frustrated and stuck. Get ready for a lighthearted approach that will change what you think, how you feel and what you believe about yourself. This podcast is full of simple steps, a lot of truth, talk and inspiration to take action. So you walk away feeling confident, calm, and inspiration to take action. So you walk away feeling confident, calm and ready to live. Let's get to it. Before we get into this week's episode, I want to talk to you as a mom of teenagers and a former high school teacher.

Megan Devito:

I've seen firsthand the changes in how teenagers feel about going out, about having fun, taking risks, and how they feel about themselves and their futures. They are bombarded with information, from the news to what kid in their math class did on Snapchat or what was said about them in an Instagram post, the testing and the academic pressure and the athletics in school. It's all overwhelming, and they spend hour after hour face down on a phone to connect with their friends who only live a block away. It's a lot for most adults, so imagine doing it with a brain that isn't fully developed, a tidal wave of hormones and a camera in your face, which means what you might want to pass off as normal teenage stress or anxiety doesn't look or feel the same as it used to. The game has changed. The expectations are bigger and the information overload is real. As a mom or a dad, it's really heartbreaking and scary to watch your kids struggle. You do whatever it takes to let them see how smart and capable they are, to show them the potential they have. If they could just get out of their heads. But you're not sure how to do it. I have some good news. Teenagers are still teenagers and they want to feel included, heard, confident and have crazy fun. They want to spend time with their friends and challenge themselves and you just to see what they can do. They just need to feel safe enough to go for it. Kids need connection to discover that they can do hard things, uncomfortable things, and grow from messing up. They need to learn, discover that they can do hard things, uncomfortable things, and grow from messing up. They need to learn to go big or go home and do it all again the next day, and they need to know that they're not the only one who's feeling overwhelmed and anxious and defeated, but they have to believe it's possible, and that starts with them believing in themselves. Wouldn't you agree that teenagers need support, encouragement and to learn how to feel confident and calm? Now more than ever, you can help them do this by enrolling them in my teen group coaching program that begins on August 12th this year, coming up in just a few weeks. It's super simple. All you have to do is message me I am CoachMeganDevito on Instagram and on Facebook and on threads. Let me know you're interested and I'll set up a time to talk with you. And now enjoy episode 99.

Megan Devito:

In this week's episode, I am welcoming Thuli Wolfe to the podcast. Thuli is an artist who loves painting and working with clay, but that's only the beginning of her story. She has a holistic approach to healing that started from painting herself through some big time crises in her life. Her story is mind boggling and I just wonder how she got from A to B, and I was into it and I know you're going to be too. She's going to talk to you about how she works as an art therapist and who does live studio work in Berlin, how she helps people work through their trauma and come out the other side in a really playful and fun way. I'm all in. I want to take a vacation now and I know you're going to want to as well.

Megan Devito:

I hope you enjoy this episode and that you check the show notes after the episode to connect with her. She is on LinkedIn, she's on Instagram, she has a website with her. She is on LinkedIn, she's on Instagram, she has a website and she is brilliant. Enjoy this episode. Tell me. Tell me how you like, how do you do that? How do you bring art into what you do? Or, before we even go there, like, how about if you just tell me some of your background? Tell me how you got started?

Thuli Wolf:

So I started out as a medical doctor and I went through medical school and then started, as I did, my residency in ophthalmology, and then I realized that most of the patients I had actually came to talk and they were mostly lonely and just needed somebody to listen to them, and then the system that I was in didn't really have enough space for this to for me to listen, to take the time, because obviously in a private practice you have like 10 minutes per patient and then you need to move on.

Thuli Wolf:

Um, and since art has always played a very important role in my life I was always painting or writing I then decided to go back to it and I started painting again. I quit the job and then I moved to Berlin like super cliche and yeah, and then I actually got into a real crisis through that, because then I was like, oh shit, now what am I going to do with my life? And then I, yeah, just painted myself through the crisis and I realized the power that art has to heal, to allow yourself to feel everything, and then I knew I needed to share this to the world. So I went back to university and did a master's degree in art therapy that had to be very scary.

Megan Devito:

I can't imagine finishing all of med school and then saying, no, I don't think this is for me yes, it was.

Thuli Wolf:

Instead it was an intense process so how?

Megan Devito:

First of all, I love it that you were intuitive enough to notice that. Wait a minute, these people are lonely, they just want someone to talk to, and was it something that? When? Were you like in that place where you like, okay, I have 10 minutes with each patient, was this a you could go? Or was it where you were like no, I really want to hear what they have to say. I want to be that person for them. How did that happen?

Thuli Wolf:

Honestly no, I wasn't. I did. I didn't have the capacity to be that person for them, because you have this pressure and it's just hindering the workload you have. So it was like this is not the place where I can be that person for them, this is not the environment where I can do that, and that's why I also left.

Megan Devito:

Okay. So that wasn't working, and at some point you just decided that medical practice wasn't for you. But I love to paint. That was something you'd done your whole life.

Thuli Wolf:

Yes, actually, since I was a little child, it was always art was always the thing that I turned to when I was lonely, or, yeah, dealing with my inner world and, yeah, also processing what I experienced.

Megan Devito:

But I think that's so interesting because so often if I'm talking with somebody and I'll say, well, what are some fun things that you can like to do? How can we make this more enjoyable, this process that we're working through more enjoyable, and when they say I don't know I'm, I always want to go back to well, what did you do for fun when you were little?

Thuli Wolf:

Yeah, absolutely, and I love this. What you just said, that how can we make this more fun? Because I feel like so many people are so scared to do therapy because they think they will discover something that they cannot handle and it's going to be all trauma and terrible. But I strongly believe that it doesn't only have to hurt to deal with your issues and to work through your trauma or whatever it is you experience. It can also be fun and it can be something you enjoy and that you love doing.

Megan Devito:

And turning to yes, yes, yes, because it is. There was a question posed on threads, I think, a couple of weeks ago, and it said why do you think so many people struggle to go to therapy? And my answer to their question was because it's terrifying. I mean, you hear stories about people going in and finding out there's all these things that they have to deal with and they're overwhelmed. And I mean, if you're like me, you just don't want to cry in front of people and it's baring your soul.

Thuli Wolf:

But you've made it easier yeah, I think or lighter certain playfulness into the equation, so it's not only about the dark stuff, but art has the ability to combine even the toughest shit that you're dealing with with beauty, and makes it beautiful in the end yeah, it does, because some of the most beautiful art is the darkest art, isn't?

Megan Devito:

it like when we look around and we see things it's's like oh, that really got me, that it is, and then we can relate to it. So well, yeah, absolutely Go ahead. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt.

Thuli Wolf:

If an artwork touches you, it's mostly because it connects to you on a deeper level, and most of the time it also connects to a part of you that is in pain or that had experienced pain and still you love the work. Like we love sad songs, we love sad movies. We turn to those things because we can then experience these emotions in a safe environment.

Megan Devito:

I mean, I think that Taylor Swift is evidence for that, isn't she? She? Has an entire album of, like, raging sadness and we're all glued to it right now like, oh my gosh, that is amazing, but it is. We do get drawn into that so much and those, you know. I just want to sit around watch sad movies. I don't want to be sad, but I want to watch this thing that makes me feel all these other emotions. Why do you think that?

Thuli Wolf:

I think it's because we can externalize these emotions so we can look at them from a safe distance. Also, when we express ourselves with art, we then have like a distance between what is going on inside of me and what is in the painting, and even if it's the same thing, it's still, yeah, safety distance. And then art has like a buffer function, so it's not all in your face, bam bam bam, but it's. It's there and you can change it and you can contain it and you can transform it.

Megan Devito:

Yeah, and there is something to be said about being able to separate yourself and look at it from the outside, because when it's inside of us, it's a lot. It's a lot to feel, yes, yeah. So for people who don't know what is art therapy about, for you.

Thuli Wolf:

So for me it is. It is a sensory experience. So we get away from the desktop, from swiping over glass all day, we come into our body, we reconnect with our body and all of our senses and we find a way to express ourselves and to process whatever it is that is inside ourselves. We get to know ourselves better and we find a way to communicate our inner world with the outer world. So, as you just said, if you feel touched by an artwork, that is such a profound form of connection that is really difficult to get with words with a stranger or somebody you don't know that well, and many things are so difficult to put into words but they're so easy to express with colors, with music, with dancing, whatever that is it is hard when I know I've had conversations with people and we'll say, okay, do you feel the feeling inside of you right now?

Megan Devito:

What is that? And we can get to bad. It's bad and I'm like I need to know more and a lot of times, one of the fun things that I do, which not with art, but just with imagination and just saying what color is it? Or you know what, how does it move? What does it feel like inside your body when that happens, but being able to bring it out. So how do you do this with? How do you do this?

Thuli Wolf:

When you're working with someone, do they just choose their medium? Do you have something specific? So it depends. If I work in my, I also give workshops and if I do that that's a bit more guided. So it's mostly people I only see once or twice and then they go through a really guided process. But if I do like an ongoing coaching with someone, then obviously every session they decide what they want to do. They choose the medium. I work with mostly fine arts like drawing, painting, sculpting, like anything like that, and then they also choose the topic they want to work on. So I don't really tell them what to do. But I do give homework assignments because I want people to stay in the creative process, because obviously it's easy when you're in the space. But I also want people to take something that they can use even without me.

Megan Devito:

So when I'm not there anymore, I want to enable them to use their creativity and what a great way to give homework, because it's I mean, we talked about this but it's fun and it's not threatening. I mean, if somebody gives you paints and says, okay, let's talk about you know paint, whatever it is that you're feeling, or like you're letting them lead into that, so they, so you give them option, they get to choose what they're doing, they're going to choose how they express themselves, and then do you offer prompts? Do you just let them go and then talk about what they're like, what they're creating? How does that work?

Thuli Wolf:

It totally depends. I mean, some people are very driven, like they know what they're doing, and some people are a bit more lost. And when they're lost, obviously I'm there to assist and also assist with simple things like how to use a certain kind of medium, because sometimes you do something you've never done before. But mostly after the creation part, which is the longest part in the session, we would then do I always call it like a little exhibition and we would then look at the artwork and we would talk about it and then also see okay, how did you feel during the process? And then very often the experiences we have while we create reflect a lot on the experiences we have outside of this art setting, in our other life.

Thuli Wolf:

So if I feel frustration because something is not working out, then we are to obviously talk about where do you know that frustration from? Does do you have a memory where that frustration appeared? And yeah, and that's how we then process the artwork. And then, obviously there's also the aspect of symbolism and I mean it's not like, okay, somebody painted a fish and then I can tell them that means they are broken, because everybody has their individual language. But when you ask someone, oh, where does this fish come from? And then they start thinking about it, and then they start telling a story, and that's how you enter a conversation.

Megan Devito:

That's so interesting. I just um, last week, I interviewed someone who also she does her therapy work, and she does. I wish I could remember it's called narrative therapy, where they will start a story, like a story circle, and so if she has a group, it's like they start a prompt and then the people tell the story, and the way that they interact with the other people, the way their story goes, is how she does like her therapy and her coaching, but it sounds like you guys should write a book together, like with art and stories, and I'm like I have such a good idea right now. I love that, though, because it is. It's such an.

Megan Devito:

I think we take for granted how we tell stories, and you know, when we are younger and we're doing art and we are, you know when we draw. We can look at pictures that little kids draw and we can say, well, why are you crying? And then they'll tell you exactly what happened, or you know what's this about, and they, they are doing it naturally, and somewhere along the line we just lose that yeah, we lose it, and mainly we lose it in school.

Thuli Wolf:

It's when we're starting to get judged for our intuitive creative expression and then somebody comes and says this is not good, you don't have talent. talent

Megan Devito:

So that's not just the United States thing. Okay, I think that I know I'm like oh, it's not just global, yeah States thing.

Megan Devito:

Okay, I think that's. I know I'm like oh, it's not just us. Okay, great. It is, though, and what a shame, because in the middle of this entire, the entire world is struggling, aren't we? I mean everybody's anxious. Everybody is in this place where we don't know what's happening and what to do with ourselves, and we're all. I think we're on the verge of this major breakthrough. It feels like everybody's trying to heal right now, which is wonderful, but also really sad that we're in this place and that we created it ourselves, kind of. Maybe not us, but someone created this mess that we're in.

Thuli Wolf:

Yes, I mean we have the climate crisis, we have the geopolitical crises, financial crises and we have a mental health crisis, and they're all connected. It's not just separate entities, they're all connected. The way we treat ourselves is the same way we treat the planet is the same way we treat other people is the same way we deal with money. It's all connected.

Megan Devito:

Yeah, yeah. I wish more people realized that that is so true and people would say well, how is the climate connected with, you know, mental health or something like that? But it is. It is because if we feel hopeless, why would we do anything about anything? Or if we feel like everybody's out to get us, why would we trust anyone?

Thuli Wolf:

absolutely. And then, the same way it works in this direction, it also works in the other direction. So the changes we experience with our climate, they influence our mental health, they influence our physical health.

Megan Devito:

So, yeah, we're, we're doomed if we don't find a way to heal, collectively heal absolutely, and there's so many people talking about it, which I think is really refreshing, just from my childhood, where even my kids would say, well, what did you do? And I'm like but you don't understand, it wasn't a thing. When I was little, it was just like no, it's just the way you were and it wasn't a thing. You're anxious. I don't even know what that is, we just move on. I don't even know what that is, we just move on. So really it's not a new problem, but it definitely has evolved and grown, but I don't know that it's grown in numbers, I think it's just grown in awareness.

Thuli Wolf:

Yeah, maybe, I mean, maybe we don't know it's hard.

Megan Devito:

How would we know? Yeah, exactly right exactly, yeah it's very yeah, that's great. But so I want to go back to what you do in terms of art and therapy. So when you do all of the story work, or you have them, you have them paint or do their art, so what is your progression like? What would you a typical client that you would work with? I guess is what I'm thinking um, I think it's.

Thuli Wolf:

There's two different kinds of clients that I do ongoing coachings with, and the one type is a person who is dealing with complex emotions, who is maybe on the crossroads of a major decision or is just stuck in life and is not where they are supposed to be. And the other thing is that I also work with creatives who experience creative blocks or who don't know how to proceed, what their narrative is, or who are trying to find their creative identity wow, so do you.

Megan Devito:

So you don't deal a lot with, like, complex trauma or things like that. It's very focused, it's not? So somebody said, oh my gosh, I have this background. I mean, I know that potentially you could deal with that. It's just yours is more like okay, this is more focused in terms of the people with the creative blocks or the people who are coming to you because they are like they have a decision to make or something. Is that correct?

Thuli Wolf:

I think we all have some sort of trauma. Yes, yes, I deal with people who are, I would say, emotionally stable enough that they don't need to go into a clinic, um, and to do this, as I would say, like a thing where they don't have to interrupt their lives for that.

Megan Devito:

And yes, yeah, yeah, I get a lot of questions about that. Um, as a coach where people will say I have this thing, I can't leave my house, I can't do that and I'm like that's not my wheelhouse. But as a therapist, I mean, I think that as a coach, where people will say, I have this thing, I can't leave my house, I can't do that and I'm like that's not my wheelhouse. But as a therapist, I mean, I think that, as a therapist, is there are there classifications for therapists that do different things? Because I don't, I don't know this.

Megan Devito:

I feel like therapists, in terms of counselors, can do. I know that, like certain techniques someone has, like yours happens to be art. Other people might do CBT or they might do anything else, but is there a like, a like this is the type of trauma that I work with frequently, or that I know that I'm like I'm so good at handling this type because, you're right, everyone does have their thing right and somebody's, everybody's been through something probably multiple somethings at some point. But is there something that you're like this is maybe this is the type of person who I'm like? Oh, this one, I got this almost every time, like I just understand this, so, so well yeah, I think, um, a topic that is really reoccurring in my work is anger.

Thuli Wolf:

So, I think because it's also mainly female clients, and I think women have a very specific relationship to anger and rage, because we are mainly taught to repress it, which then leads to depression, and then also to understand what is the underlying pain of that anger, what is the source of it. And I think, for me, pain is something that I where I don't want to separate between mental or emotional pain and physical pain, because I believe that it's it's one thing, it's the same thing, it's all connected. So, yeah, pain is a topic that I'm very focused on right now. I'm very interested in that's so good'm very interested in.

Megan Devito:

That's so good and there's so much of it. Again, back to that. There is a lot of pain there's especially coming off of COVID and people are. We've lost people, we've lost where we were headed, we've lost so many things and there's so much anger and so much pain out there.

Megan Devito:

that I was, you know, I was like I had my life stolen from me, for however long like, whatever their thoughts are about that, and that's such important work, such important work, yeah, so do you work with people? When do you work people? Mostly in a practice, like in person. Do you work with people online?

Thuli Wolf:

I do both mostly in person, because it's most people also enjoy coming to the studio and getting out of their regular life and their families and whatever is going on and have some privacy and also, I think, have the luxury of me time, so for most of my clients's very important, but I do also offer sessions online. I also work with companies, so I do team events um, if there's any like conflict problem solving or even just if they want to have fun, and then sometimes I go to the offices, sometimes we do something in a restaurant or different locations.

Megan Devito:

I love it that you can actually take it into corporations and do that like I can see all these guys in business suits out there like painting and doing pottery and doing some things. That is so great, and I'm just saying that if I lived where you live, I would come all the time because it sounds like such you're right being able to get out of the house and be like, oh, this is such a good way for me just to go take care of myself, have some fun and also work through some things. And so you have a studio in Berlin where you can go and just do art and therapy at the same time. Yeah, in America we have wine and canvas where we can go drink and paint at the same time. But, um, it's like the same thing, but not very, not near as helpful. Um, but okay, that is so fun, that's actually. I wish people would do that here.

Thuli Wolf:

I think that's just an incredible way to be able to bring your gift into the world yes, and also the next thing that I want to do is to just also offer an open studio where people just come in a time frame whenever they want and just create and then go whenever they want. So to keep it a bit more open and, yeah, also easier accessible.

Megan Devito:

Yeah, and who wouldn't want to? I mean, we all. It is like you know, when you, when you get your life and when you're like coaching, training and we've got all these like wheels of life and creativity is on every single one, and sometimes I think we poo-poo that we're like, oh, creativity I'll fit that in later but I'm I'm like we are inherently creative.

Thuli Wolf:

Yes, aren't we? And if we don't?

Megan Devito:

go there. It throws everything off absolutely, absolutely.

Thuli Wolf:

And what I also think is so important is that creativity shows us how healthy we are, and creativity also helps us to heal. So I think Martha Beck said it in a podcast that you cannot feel anxiety and think creatively at the same time. So one eliminates the other, and that's wonderful, because there we have the most accessible, most easiest tool.

Megan Devito:

It is. And something as simple as a box of crayons and a blank piece of paper, absolutely, and absolutely, yeah, yeah, you don't have to have the palette and the, the easel and all those things. You really can just go back to when you were five yeah, and you don't even have to be a great artist.

Thuli Wolf:

You don't even have to make art yourself, like we know we. We've seen studies now that even just looking at art has almost the same effect as making art yourself. So it's really there, yeah.

Megan Devito:

That's awesome. I went last summer. The Van Gogh exhibit was in a city close to where I went and the immersive one where you walk in and it's on the ceilings and it's on the walls and it's all around you and it's just all of his paintings and music and I could have stayed in that room all day long and never left. It was beautiful and it was. It was just on all sides, no matter where you turned, you were just surrounded by it. It was fantastic.

Thuli Wolf:

Yeah, that's wonderful.

Megan Devito:

Yeah, there were little toddlers in the middle of the room just like dancing and spinning around. I'm like look how happy they are. They should be here every day. This should be their school.

Thuli Wolf:

Yeah, and I think in Canada they started doing prescription art, so they prescribe museum visits by physicians, which I think is amazing.

Megan Devito:

What a great option. So we don't have to take another pill. Yes, exactly, that's so okay. I only live maybe two and a half or three hours from Canada. I want a prescription to like I need to go to Canada, I need to just go up there and hit. Yeah and hit, I'm sorry. Museum I didn't know that. That's really cool. Yeah, it makes sense. Yeah, if we can, now we can get prescriptions for massages. Of course, we can get a prescription for a museum yeah, I mean.

Thuli Wolf:

I think also, like if you look at the United States or England, the creative therapies have far more acceptance in Germany. It's still so difficult, like the insurance companies they don't accept it and it's still it's not paid very well, like if you would work in a hospital as an art therapist. You can't even afford rent in Berlin. It's insane, yeah.

Megan Devito:

I don't know that you could in the United States right now either, but maybe I think that Canada probably Canada, I'm sure is way ahead of us, yeah, and possibly the UK as well, but I hope that we're getting there. I hope that Germany is getting there. I hope that the United States is getting there, because it's one of those situations where just we need to throw everything at it right now. And if art works for someone, let them do art. And if, if it's one of those situations where just we need to throw everything at it right now, and if art works for someone, let them do art. And if, if it's music, if it's, yeah, whatever it is that's working for someone, we have to be willing to say this is what helps them, and we need to find a way for them to be able to afford that and do that. And we've thrown medicine at it for years and it hasn't helped.

Thuli Wolf:

It's just made it worse absolutely and especially in the states right, you have a crazy situation with pharmaceuticals yeah, it's ridiculous, it really really is ridiculous.

Megan Devito:

And but I do feel like people. People are trapped, they don't know what to do and when somebody says this is going to help you, they're so desperate that they, yes, please, I'll take anything, I'll do anything. And we have, we've gotten ourself into a mess. Yeah, I'm going to start asking doctors to prescribe art. Yes, amazing, yeah, I'm going to call my doctor friends and say, oh, my gosh, this is what you need to do, because there are people my sister-in-law is an art therapist, or she was an art she's an art therapy major and art some sort of art with it, art and therapy, but maybe not art therapy, which is funny.

Thuli Wolf:

But yeah, it'll work.

Megan Devito:

Yeah, but that's amazing. I just love that. So where can people find you to connect with you for your online workshops or if they happen to be going to Berlin so that they can come check you?

Thuli Wolf:

out so they can follow me on Instagram that's Thuli Wolf T-H-U-L-I-W-O-L-F, or my website, thuliwolfcom, and there they can also contact me, ask me any kinds of questions. I'm really happy to chat more about my work and, yeah, connect. I'm really happy to chat more about my work and, yeah, connect.

Megan Devito:

Amazing, amazing, julie, thank you so much for being with me today. I love hearing about what you do, and now I want to not go pick my daughter up at school and paint.

Thuli Wolf:

That's an amazing idea.

Megan Devito:

Yes, I think that sounds like a really good idea, so maybe she'll come home and paint with me, though. So she's 15. We'll see if she actually says yes to that. But yeah, thank you so much. I really enjoyed hearing about what you do.

Thuli Wolf:

Yeah, thanks for having me.

Megan Devito:

I hope you enjoyed this episode of the More Than Anxiety podcast. Before you go, be sure to subscribe and leave a review so others can easily find this resource as well. And, of course, if you're ready to feel calm, to stop overthinking and have a lot more fun, you can go to the show notes, click the link and talk to me about coaching. I'll talk to you soon.