Sickness and stress are universal adversaries, but sometimes it's the simple pleasures like a Snickers bar that offer a sweet reprieve. This week, amid discussing our own skirmishes with life's curveballs, we also peel back the layers of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, a topic that's as complex as it is heated. We wade into the dialogue surrounding the recent global protests in support of Palestine. Listen as we break down the cacophony of international voices, the varied demands of protestors, and the ripple effects felt from government halls to academic institutions.
The fervor of activism doesn't stop at global politics — university campuses across the U.S. have become battlegrounds for student-led protests and divestment movements. Our conversation takes you through the tumultuous events, from hunger strikes to the disruption of time-honored ceremonies, and the repercussions of such activism. We scrutinize the national conversation on Israel's support, drawing parallels to historic protests and navigating the ethical quagmires of allyship and activism. Get ready for a thought-provoking look at the choices facing educational leaders and the influence of student voices in shaping dialogue on these issues.
As we wrap up, we ponder the responsibilities that come with institutional power when it intersects with calls for social justice. Reflecting on the delicate balance between university policies and student demands, we explore the challenges faced by the chancellor at UC Irvine in his negotiations with protestors. Our analysis doesn't shy away from the tough questions about global allyship, the ethics involved, and the weighty decisions that must be made amidst moral and political complexities. So, if you're ready for an episode that promises to both enlighten and entertain, don't miss out on this robust discussion.
Connect with us at @babewhatpodcast for updates, interactions, and polls.
If you want to help financially support the show, keep our mics on, and help us to continue creating high quality content, you can become a supporter of our show here and contribute as little or as much as you'd like.
Sickness and stress are universal adversaries, but sometimes it's the simple pleasures like a Snickers bar that offer a sweet reprieve. This week, amid discussing our own skirmishes with life's curveballs, we also peel back the layers of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, a topic that's as complex as it is heated. We wade into the dialogue surrounding the recent global protests in support of Palestine. Listen as we break down the cacophony of international voices, the varied demands of protestors, and the ripple effects felt from government halls to academic institutions.
The fervor of activism doesn't stop at global politics — university campuses across the U.S. have become battlegrounds for student-led protests and divestment movements. Our conversation takes you through the tumultuous events, from hunger strikes to the disruption of time-honored ceremonies, and the repercussions of such activism. We scrutinize the national conversation on Israel's support, drawing parallels to historic protests and navigating the ethical quagmires of allyship and activism. Get ready for a thought-provoking look at the choices facing educational leaders and the influence of student voices in shaping dialogue on these issues.
As we wrap up, we ponder the responsibilities that come with institutional power when it intersects with calls for social justice. Reflecting on the delicate balance between university policies and student demands, we explore the challenges faced by the chancellor at UC Irvine in his negotiations with protestors. Our analysis doesn't shy away from the tough questions about global allyship, the ethics involved, and the weighty decisions that must be made amidst moral and political complexities. So, if you're ready for an episode that promises to both enlighten and entertain, don't miss out on this robust discussion.
Connect with us at @babewhatpodcast for updates, interactions, and polls.
If you want to help financially support the show, keep our mics on, and help us to continue creating high quality content, you can become a supporter of our show here and contribute as little or as much as you'd like.
Please remember to rate, subscribe, and review!
Sam:
Welcome to Babe. What Do you Know About the podcast with your favorite husband and wife, duo Sam
Tayla:
and Tayla. Each week we dive deep into a new subject, blending fun and seriousness to push boundaries and buttons.
Sam:
Get ready to expand your knowledge, challenge your perspectives and have a blast along the way.
Tayla:
Well, it's been a hell of a two weeks.
Sam:
It has. I've been, I got sick finally. It's been a while.
Tayla:
You say that with such glee. I'm so confused.
Sam:
Well, I was proud how long it took me to get sick so famous last words, famous, last words.
Tayla:
I'm not getting sick anymore I know yeah it's been a couple weeks. We just sorry guys. It's just been a hell of a couple of weeks and the illness we've been dealing with is throw upy-y illnesses, bad illnesses, babies with the illnesses, sam with the illnesses.
Sam:
Yeah.
Tayla:
My immune system is apparently stronger than yours because I got sick, but I didn't actually throw up.
Sam:
I still feel like Nope, I had food poisoning. No, you did not have food, poisoning my whole gut biome got absolutely destroyed on this go-around.
Tayla:
But your gut biome got absolutely destroyed on this go around, but your gut biome is easily destroyed. How many stomach infections have you gotten after you've gotten sick? You've had issues.
Sam:
Just the last two times Exactly. Yeah, but I thought I fixed it. That's the thing. Like I thought I'd been working on that so well since January.
Tayla:
That's what they say about weight loss. It's like it takes you that long to wreck your body. It takes you that long to wreck your body. It takes you that long to build it back up. I'm sure the changes were good, but a couple months of it is not going to.
Sam:
Let me tell you, I ate sourdough bread today. Nice, yeah, that's all it takes. That's all it takes, yeah.
Tayla:
What else?
Sam:
Did you do your?
Tayla:
apple cider vinegar. I'm about to uh-huh, and what else?
Sam:
I I haven't done this in a really long time, but I was at a gas station and I was like you know what I'm feeling so much anxiety right now and I I bought a snickers bar, a snickers I don't think I've ever been around you and you bought this. No, I just I went to the gas station only to go buy a snickers bar, and I ate this snake as well, not just a normal, like the king size too oh, you were really anxious today, yeah, and it didn't help.
Tayla:
Did you become yourself? No, it feels good, you, when you're hungry.
Sam:
I don't know what. The, the sugar, the dopamine, whatever that helped while I was eating it. And then afterwards I'm like, oh, now I'm also garbage, because I ate a giant Snickers bar.
Tayla:
I had a chocolate chip cookie today after lunch at work. Oh, sorry guys, the yawning Same thing. It was really good when I was eating it and then I was like, like I just didn't need it you seen this?
Sam:
you see, you see my right eyes twitching I can't see anything, just twitching no guys, the pressure is building sam's gonna break if, if anything happens to him. I didn't kill him, he just died from a heart attack, from his own stress yeah, we're getting really close to being at the finish line with the, the board game. Yes, and it's just.
Tayla:
I've never a lot.
Sam:
Yeah, like the thing is, I usually handle stress really well, but I think since having kids, for some reason it makes everything feel like it's the most important thing in the world. It's high stakes. It feels so high stakes all of a sudden because I've I've like lived a pretty carefree life and it doesn't really matter, like what happens to me, whatever.
Tayla:
But right now, kids will do it to you. It's twitching. I don't see it. Anyway, we should talk about what we're going to talk about. Today should be an interesting topic. I'm going to do my little intro after I yawn. Hold, please, all right.
Tayla:
The Israeli-Palestinian conflict has reignited global outrage, with pro-Palestine protests erupting on college campuses and city streets worldwide. In the US alone, hundreds of students have been arrested, over 275 at Columbia University in New York City. These demonstrations transcend borders, with students in Paris also taking a stand in solidarity. In other places, beyond the immediate conflict, these protests tap into a deep well of frustration over human rights concerns and the ongoing Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories. Some argue that Israel's recent military actions in Gaza, which, according to the UN, resulted in a disproportionate number of Palestinian civilian casualties, are the tipping point. Others see this as part of a larger struggle for Palestinian self-determination and a just resolution for a decades-old conflict. We're going to explore reasons behind the outrage, the demands of protesters, and how governance and law enforcement and universities are responding. So, babe, what do you know about the protests for Palestine?
Sam:
A little bit. You know what. I'm actually glad that we didn't do this recording a week ago or whatever, because they kind of feel like it's I don't't know, the words run its course, but we now know like we're further along a full, a more fuller story. So, yeah, I'm happy about that, because it would have been a lot of just like well, here's my opinion yeah well, I guess that's what we do. That's a podcast.
Tayla:
Here's my opinion yeah, but I agree like there's been more development since last week when we were going to record this, which I think will be interesting to talk about.
Tayla:
So I'm going to use my favorite person ever, Sharon McMann's some of her updates on what has been going on and I love her information so much because she reads at least 12 different news sources from the left all the way to the central and to the right and gives pretty good fact-based summaries of things at least 12 different news sources from the left all the way to the central and to the right and gives pretty good fact-based summaries of things also.
Sam:
I'm actually a fan of her as well, because she pushes for basically we're getting money out of politics and is very centrist. Yes, she's very centrist. Which? At least yeah, and nuanced centrist nuanced and that's pretty rare for someone on social media these days, especially in the political space.
Tayla:
And especially in a successful way at all. Goodness, gracious me, okay.
Sam:
So here's some of the you won't get me to yawn, Like every single time you're yawning, it's like invoking like a yawn response, but I'm not gonna do it.
Tayla:
I'm very sensitive to like yawn contagion, very sensitive to it. I will, I will. He's just do stop, okay, okay. So Columbia has been the big universe Stop. Columbia's been the the I would say one of the college campus protests that has received a lot of ammunition is the wrong way to put it. A lot of support and a lot of reporting.
Sam:
A lot of support and a lot of reporting, a lot of attention a lot of attention, goodness gracious me.
Tayla:
So this was. I think this was around the the 29th of april. The columbia's administration had told protesters that they had to leave an encampment that was there on the campus and said that they would suspend students who refused to leave. But after midnight, so around midnight on the 30th of April, protesters entered Hamilton Hall, which is an academic building, chanting Free Palestine, and they stacked chairs and tables across the doors to block the entrances and hung a Palestinian flag out the window. And then at 2 am, the group that organized the encampment on social media said that they would stay there until Columbia responded to their demands. The administration closed the campus to everyone except for students who live on campus and those who provide essential services, and shut down all entrances except for one to the campus, and the students occupied that building well into the morning. There's also pro-Palestinian protesters who occupied the library at Portland State, and campus was also shut down there. Protesters also took over a building at Cal Poly, humboldt, including the president's office, and the university closed that campus and then they had later that day cleared the building with law enforcement and arrested 35 people who would face charges of unlawful assembly, vandalism, conspiracy and others and disciplinary action from the school, so on. The third as of the 30th of april, nearly 80 people were arrested at the university of texas. Another 80 were arrested at virginia tech. Dozens more were arrested at schools in utah, virginia and new jersey. And the universities say they would. They are saying that they always warn the students to disperse before calling in police enforcement. I think for the most part the school administration wants to avoid involving the police as much as possible, because typically that escalates the situations. But 30 people were also arrested at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill campus, and Northwestern University was one of the universities that reached an agreement with their students to allow them to continue protesting, but they had to remove or tense and unapproved loudspeakers, and that was something that they agreed to.
Tayla:
So why are they protesting beyond just the the conflict? So the biggest thing that protesters seem to want from the universities is for them to stop profiting from investments that are tied to israel. So an example of that is that universities invest money into funds that contain, for example, defense contractors and those defense contractors whose weapons are sent to israel. They want the universities to stop investing to help create a ceasefire in gaza, and so the students are not expecting the schools to be responsible for what's happening in Gaza. They obviously know that an individual university cannot change the actions of a foreign government. So what they are asking their schools to do is to divest, which is essentially to get rid of investments in companies that have relationships with Israel, because that's how most universities kind of keep, that's how they invest their money and become profitable. Thoughts from you. I'm going to get some buy-in from you before I give some more updated statistics from a few days after that initial thoughts on what you've presented so far is pretty much par for the course, what you would expect.
Sam:
You know, students rightfully have free speech and can protest things and, can you know, want change for things, but then cross the line and start to take over the building. Yeah, take over the building yeah, and so that that's not free speech anymore. And so I like that, because I was reading some interactions between the chancellors and university leadership how they've been trying to negotiate with them to disperse before getting law enforcement.
Sam:
That seems to be the most common thing that happened yeah, but then obviously law enforcement was, you know, required to get rid of some of the encampments and people taking over buildings and happen. I mean, that's all like good, that's due process. I wouldn't say called due process, but it's. It's how you expect the system to work and I think that's it's working in a in a good way. So one people have the right to protest, two people cross the line. Three they've been asked to not cross that line for when they've not followed direction. May please?
Tayla:
stop doing that law enforcement all good, happy.
Sam:
Two thumbs up, okay, that's how I feel okay.
Tayla:
so these protests started out, as for the most part, pretty peaceful, but last thursday the police cleared a pro-palestinian encampment at the university of california, la, and they arrested dozens of protesters. The police had previously been to the campus the day before to break up fights between pro-palestinian protesters and a group of counter protesters who came to tear down the encampment. So that's a problem too, is like vigilantes trying to do the police's job. But then the police returned early on Thursday morning at the request of the university. Before the police entered the encampment, ucla issued an alert asking the students to leave the area due to unlawful assembly, because they're on, not public property, and the photos and videos of the event seem to show the police using rubber bullets and flashbangs, which is a device that makes a loud noise and bright light to disorient people without a major injury within the encampment. And after nearly three hours the police reported that they had cleared the encampment. So that's one example of kind of a more violent interaction. Another, at Portland State University, students occupied a library on last Monday and they had remained there since Yesterday. The administration talked with protesters and 50 people left on their own based on those, and then the police were called to clear remaining protesters out of the building. There were still 50 to 100 inside and that situation was still ongoing. Protesters at Brown University made a deal with the administration to take down their encampment by Tuesday night if the university would hold discussions and a vote on divesting funds from companies connected to the Israeli military, and that encampment had since been removed.
Tayla:
So here are some more updated arrests. There were 90 people arrested at Dartmouth College after setting up an encampment on the main lawn of the campus and they are facing charges including criminal trespass and resisting arrest. 17 people were arrested at University of Texas, dallas after police cleared the encampment there and they're going to be charged with criminal trespass. 12 people were arrested at University of New Hampshire and charged with disorderly conduct and trespassing. At least 15 people were arrested at Fordham University in the Bronx after setting up an encampment inside one of the campus buildings.
Tayla:
That's not a comprehensive list by any stretch. There was some body cam footage of the students at Columbia who had taken over a Hamilton Hall who had still been in there for over 24 hours before being cleared by police. Columbia was not holding exams and was holding a remote graduation and that was a definitely a more kind of I don't know if violent is the right way to put it, but it was more like the students were. They were not attacking the police, but kind of they were like someone was using a big water bottle canister to like bop them on the head, pass their riot gear and stuff. So super unideal.
Tayla:
And then the last kind of updates that I'll give logistically before we kind of dive into some things. This is from yesterday. Students at Princeton University started a hunger strike I don't know if you've heard of this yet and they said that the hunger strike will go on until the school meets with the students to discuss their demands for disclosure, divestment and a full academic and cultural boycott of Israel. They wanted the charges also dropped against students who were previously arrested for protesting, which was at least 17 undergraduate students. Oh, no, no, sorry, 17 undergraduate students are taking part in the strike, according to the school's newspaper. Princeton responded by saying the school cares for its students' well-being and the students involved are being monitored by physicians, and I haven't heard any updates from there. There probably are some.
Tayla:
And then a couple last ones 25 people were arrested at University of Virginia on Saturday after clearing an encampment, and the police did use tear gas on those protesters. And then on Saturday protesters disrupted the University of Michigan's commencement ceremony. And then Columbia University yesterday morning canceled its main university-wide commencement ceremony because of security concerns, and it's going to still try hold smaller events and individual school ceremonies around the city. Over 200 protesters were arrested after that bullying takeover. And then Emory University in Atlanta is also moving its ceremony off campus to a different location in Duluth, georgia. There at UCLA, the university chancellor, jean Bloch, said in a statement that the school is going to create an office of campus safety to guide the school through. Quote tense times, close quote. And so the numbers as of yesterday were that over 2,200 people have been arrested on college campuses in the past two weeks. Thoughts on any of that?
Sam:
I was having the thought that one of the positives that has come from this would be that they have been able to effectively change the conversation nationwide, talking about, maybe, some of the nuance behind how and in what ways do we support israel as a country and then as a people, and what things can we do to have like not just straight up, hey, yeah, you just have complete support because you're israel. Here's all the money, here's all the support. Do what you need to to now.
Sam:
I think there creates a conversation where there's, like you know, sure maybe the government's not gonna like yeah yeah, sure I don't agree with how you protested sure I don't and you know the consequences are going to come from that for some of them and sure I don't agree with like 90 of what they are protesting, but there's a part of it that is very, the very important, because the protesters have a range of like what they're unhappy with. Like you have some protesters that are just straight up like no israel for anything. Israel is bad. You know, hamas is great. There's literally people that have been protesting and pushing that narrative yeah, I would say that's a much smaller demographic but it's there okay it's, it's there so what?
Tayla:
now? You said you disagree with 90% of the protesters, like what they're protesting. What is it that you disagree with? That they're protesting.
Sam:
I disagree with. I'd say like the thing that they all have consensus on, like across the extremes to the nuanced, is they want divestment.
Tayla:
Right.
Sam:
That's the main thing. Like I said, there's a broad range of like super extreme things.
Tayla:
That's most of what they're asking for.
Sam:
Mostly.
Tayla:
You disagree with that.
Sam:
Yeah, I do disagree with it.
Tayla:
Really.
Sam:
Because they're targeting a not just a nation, but also a people that like. So I've got a few examples here of university chances and presidents that I've had to that are negotiating with them and they're saying the things that you're asking for, the things that are literally actually out of our control, is how the funds are invested and specifically excluding companies and people that can have programs, because it's not just the divestment part, it's also having programs that have got to do with people that are Jewish, people that are from Israel. They're wanting to not have any of those programs anymore. I don't agree with that. It's literally racism. It's against what these people want for Palestinians. They're pushing a lot of that to Israelis.
Tayla:
So I don't agree with that at all. Okay, so similar thing happened during the south african apartheid and there were student protesters and they were making the same, there was sanctions against south africa, and all of that to try and promote the end of apartheid. Is that something you disagree with on the part of the?
Sam:
No, I support their right to protest Back then, even though I wasn't even alive, I think, when it started. I wasn't, you know, even alive, I think, when it started, but I don't know the specifics, nor am I educated enough to form a strong enough opinion on the nuance of how the college people protested back then. So I honestly couldn't give you like an educated response.
Tayla:
No, no, no. I'm mostly asking that, like the world, a lot of the world, a lot of the world, a lot of the countries, not just students, just in general, there was a movement to pretty much divest from South Africa, whether that was like the actual government, but it was also private businesses and affected private citizens. And I'm asking if you thought, because that definitely was a huge part of why the apartheid did end. I'm asking if you, if you think that's not the right thing, because for me I just wonder like what else do the students ask for that's within their realm of control, to influence? Because they can't influence israel, they can't influence that foreign government and what they're doing, but they can try and influence the university that they go to. But you're saying that you don't think that's the right approach.
Sam:
Because it's not just Israel, it's also Jewish individuals, jewish companies or owned by Jewish people. They're asking them to not have those associations. Literally a people, all right. So, for example, here's someone that I agree with their viewpoint. It's from the chancellor at University of California, irvine. It's Howard Gilman, and he basically writes a letter to the campus community, and here's an excerpt from it. He's basically one of the people that have not called law enforcement that's just been negotiating with them while they're still encamped on campus and apparently they're sending proposals to each other on a negotiation negotiation anyway. So he's saying this the counter proposal calls for ending numerous external partnerships that support us, our students, through scholarships and facilitate long-standing research collaborations.
Sam:
It also demands an end to a wide range of academic and research collaborations with Israeli organizations and individuals. This would violate fundamental principles of academic freedom and would require us to discriminate based on a person's nationality, which goes against our commitment to anti-discrimination and our principles of diversity, equity and inclusion. Further, the demands include calls for divestments that would violate university policies on investment decisions that are outside the control of any individual campus. They demand defunding the UCI police department, despite the fact that all UC campuses have adopted new community safety plans after a year-long consultation process that included student input. Additionally, the demand include the demands include actions that would infringe upon our established procedures for handling accusations of faculty misconduct. Not sure what that you know references. They also criticize our Center for Jewish Studies and its efforts to address anti-Semitism. So yeah, I agree with that.
Tayla:
So it just sounds, though, like he's saying I can't do anything. Is that accurate, though? So I understand why he's saying I can't do these things, but it just didn't seem like he was really giving the students like anything to be like yes, we're concerned about this human rights disaster, and this is what we can do as a university to try and enact change.
Sam:
Just a paragraph before. I'll read this to see if that can give us any sort of color. But he said On Wednesday May 1st the university presented a proposal to the protest organizers addressing nearly all of their initial demands. Our proposal was modeled on a successful agreement at another university which our student protesters had lauded as a victory. We received a counter proposal on thursday may 2nd which introduced a range of new requests which were not part of their initial demands. While some of the new demands can easily be met, most challenges the very core of our mission to educate, to conduct research and to serve a diverse community without bias okay so it sounds like he obviously made a lot of effort that met the original demands.
Sam:
They got new demands and he's saying, hey, we can obviously meet some of these, but here are the things we can't. And so that's what I was just addressing was the portion that he can't. I don't know what the things that he did address, but if he's being truthful, he obviously addressed a good portion of the initial requests. He obviously addressed a good portion of the initial requests.
Tayla:
Yeah, I find this challenging because I don't disagree, and I do think it's wise for these administrators to be more prudent, to have the bigger scope, the wider view, the taller view than the students do of the bigger picture of the implications of a lot of the demands. So I, I, but I, I do struggle because I, I'm just trying to see how this is different than what was requested and happened during this of the africa sanctions, you know what?
Tayla:
I mean because and is it just because it's a? It's a religious minority that has previously and currently in a lot of cases, is very oppressed globally, Whereas the other people that were being sanctioned against were white oppressors. What's the difference?
Sam:
I would say let's take a step back and think about what's happened over the last year or so. Israel was attacked by hamas on october 7th and it was an absolute massacre by a terrorist organization that literally sent troops into israel and killed a lot of civilians. That, that's what ignited this and took them and took hostages and and raped people and did all manners of atrocities. Now what is a country to do when a terrorist organization does that?
Tayla:
well, I'll tell you what they're not to do, which is to starve, attack and bomb a bunch of civilians that are innocent sure, I and I I disagree with their execution of everything.
Sam:
I disagree with so much of the leadership of Israel and how they're dealing with it. However, I think, because of the complexity of the situation, that's why I don't go. Yes, let's ban everything Israel. Yes, if it's a Jewish company, if it's a jewish organization, no, we're going to have no relationship with him. We're going to cut them off from the rest of the world, because it's more complicated than just israel bad hamas, good gaza, good you know, it's way more complicated than that. So I I get that there's a a portion of people that are focused on the atrocities, and they're focused on hey, this is what happens to innocent people in Gaza, but there's innocent people in Israel, and so that, to me, is why there's the complexity yeah, you're right, but I just it's not on the same scale.
Tayla:
like the innocent people in Israel are not being starved, they're not being currently attacked, they like the, the access from Hamas to the civilians in Israel. It's just not even. It's like putting a bunny in a dogfight, like, yes, could the bunny do damage? Yes, but like it's just not even the same at all. And on the scale of human rights violations by and I would say this is by Netanyahu and his administration rather than by Israel as a whole. In fact, there are so many protests in Israel itself against Netanyahu and how he's handling the situation because he's not prioritizing getting the hostages home, he's prioritizing retribution.
Sam:
Sure, and so is Hamas. But Hamas is a terrorist organization and netanyahu is an ally yes, so the united states government has repeatedly had meetings with israel to calm the tensions, to tell them we don't agree with how you're responding to any of this and but we still support you in the region because you are being attacked. We will support and defend you, but we do not support how you are going about yeah, dealing with this and that's, but them saying that has done nothing.
Tayla:
It hasn't influenced netanyahu almost at all like he's continues.
Sam:
No, he continues to murder and kill people every day children, women well you don't and kill people every day children, women Well you don't like empirically know that it hasn't made a difference. So we know what is happening, but we don't know what could have happened if there hasn't been this pressure. We don't know, and do I think we could do more? Absolutely Do.
Sam:
I feel like it's a very difficult, touchy situation that our political leaders may or may not be doing the best part, or may have doing the best part or may have, I'd say, um, like a dog in the fight on how it goes, because there's also a whole lot of people in the middle east that really hate the united states and would happily bomb us if they could.
Sam:
So to them they see, hey, our only ally in the middle east is israel. So we need to keep supporting them and try figure out how to walk this line of supporting them but at the same time going okay, bad, no, no, no. They can't completely just be like, all right, now you're also cut off and now they have no ally in the middle east and we, you know that could turn into a much bigger, worser world war kind of a problem. So I think it, I'm trying to put myself in their shoes and in my tiny little uneducated brain. It's a very difficult situation to figure out and I and I feel like making it black and white and to um reduce it to just such a singular narrative is is not doing the situation justice.
Tayla:
I agree, and I don't think I'm doing that, but I just I think the leaning is just slightly opposite, right, but I think we're both providing a lot of space for the complication and the nuance for it. But I just think more should be done.
Sam:
I agree.
Tayla:
And so that's why I think there's this frustration on the college campuses, because anyone, who's anyone, knows that, whether you're educated or not, and especially people who are studying political science. These are what is it like? Yale and Harvard and all these, a lot of these are Ivy League educations. These are people studying international relations, political science. Not all of them A bunch of them are dumb, but I'm saying everyone can see that something more could and should be done and that, like we cannot, it's. It feels at this point like kind of if we were, if germany was the same thing back in world war ii, and we're like, oh, and like you guys really shouldn't be doing the hol, like really this is wrong, this is genocide, like really you shouldn't do it. That's kind of how it feels. We're like we're kind of allowing a genocide to happen. We are, and really all we're doing is like really you really shouldn't do it, don't make us do anything, like don't do it, but it's still continuing.
Sam:
See that to me sounds like it's reductive that you're saying that what's happening is a Holocaust-type genocide happening there right now, which is not at all on the same level.
Tayla:
It's not a Holocaust-type genocide, but it is a genocide.
Sam:
So I mean it's complicated. You've got a whole lot of Middle East countries that are supporting Hamas through lots of underground money coming from Iran. Coming from of underground money coming from iran, coming from saudi arabia, coming from pakistan, coming from all over that, just not.
Tayla:
None of that is the palestinians fault.
Sam:
It's a monster exactly well, and hamas uses palestinians as what at shields they bomb their own hospital, they bomb their own people.
Tayla:
So and then they blame it on, so does israel, but then they bomb the hospitals, blame bomb the people but they're blaming it on israel, when it's not always israel.
Sam:
So I'm trying to say that it's super complicated and it's super difficult and to just be like, hey, okay, cool, we're just not gonna have any support for israel at all I don't think.
Tayla:
I'm not asking for that. I haven't talked about it. That's what the protesters are, all of them.
Sam:
Yes, some protesters are asking for that the majority of the, the narrative that's across the board is that piece. So that's, that's the. That's their main messaging. That's why they're encamping on the, the college campuses. That's why they're taking over buildings.
Tayla:
Yeah, and again it's whether it's whether it's short-sighted or not, whether it's it's missing the mark or not, they are not okay with what's happening in Gaza and there's nothing else that they can do about it. Sure, but demand something. And especially if you're getting into a protest where you're making demands, like you always have to shoot way past because you're going to land somewhere in the middle.
Sam:
That's like negotiation 101 I'm very happy with how it's happened. I'm happy that they protested, I'm happy that if, when they went over the line that the college campuses for the most part didn't get law enforcement involved and has tried to negotiate them, and then when things have gone like just when you're explaining the summary at the beginning, and when things have gone too far, they've gotten law enforcement and no one's died. There's been very, very small, minor injuries. Everything's gone like and how you'd hope the system would work. And the positive, like I said, is here's a positive change is that they've been able to push the conversation around the nation, around the conversation about our relationship with Israel, which I think is a good thing, because I think it should be challenged and I think there should be more of us trying to have a vocal opinion about how we're managing that relationship and it's not just left to whatever interests our politicians have. You know that.
Tayla:
That's, I think it's all positive yeah, I just can't really think of a time in which there were student protests like this, where the student protesters were not right. Looking back and that gives me pause, like with situations like this where I'm just like again, maybe the methodology or with what they're asking is wrong, but the moral, the the morality around it, like the protesters are right what are they right about?
Tayla:
all right. They're right about what's happening in gaza being wrong and there being no justification for it, because there isn't. There isn't justification for targeting civilians, for making women and children and innocents be homeless, for just because they're like, we're not going to allow them to use people as a shield. They use them as as fodder, like it's just. It isn't right. There isn't a justification for how Israel has handled the situation. It's been wrong.
Sam:
Yeah, no, that part is right, but there's so much of what they're demanding that isn't right.
Tayla:
I know, but they're only demanding what they're demanding, because that's the only thing they can demand. They can't really change the real problem, which is how Netanyahu is handling this whole situation.
Tayla:
They can't ask for that change, they can't ask for any of that, they can only ask for this. And I agree that and I'm glad that the administrators, as you said, have not just kind of given in to the concerns. But I do think it's not right. The whole point of these protests for Palestine is that, like, in my belief, this is Tayla, they're in the right, they're in the moral high ground for what they're asking and what they're being. Not what they're asking but why they're protesting. Like the deeper reason really isn't the divestment, it's not the the money, it's. That's not really what they would be asking if they had influence over the world. And what's really happening. What they want is for the innocent people in Gaza and the Palestinians who are being murdered in a genocide fashion to be protected and for some sort of solution to happen, and this issue was also caused in part by the West, this whole issue, and so greater responsibility needs to be taken on our part to prevent innocent bloodshed. It's not being taken, I think, to the extent that it should be, and there's just some things that, whether it makes sense or not, it's the right thing to do. Maybe that's short-sighted and that's probably why I'm not going to be a government official or someone who has any skin in the game to make any decisions like this, but that's just what I think.
Tayla:
Thanks for listening to the Babe. What Do you Know About? Podcast.