THE ONES WHO DARED
45. From Loss and Debt to Resilience and Purpose, Molly Shines Light on the Power of Self-Forgiveness, Laughter and Healing.
Molly Stillman blended her painful past with a sense of humor in her memoir "If I Don't Laugh, I'll Cry," tapping into our universal need for vulnerability and self-forgiveness.
Molly Stillman’s journey of facing multiple challenges, including the loss of her mother, financial struggles, and a career detour. Explore how she found resilience and hope in the face of adversity.
Molly candidly shared her experience of squandering a significant inheritance, accumulating credit card debt, and the lessons she learned from it.
Our conversation also turns to the profound connection as highlighted by a guest's serendipitous exchange with Kristin Hannah who not only did a forward on Molly's book, but also used Molly's mom Lynda Van Devanter's book Home Before Morning: The Story of an Army Nurse in Vietnam as research for her newest book called The Women.
Molly shares how her life was impacted as a result of her mom being in the Vietnam War as a young nurse, the lasting trauma that followed for both women, and how agent orange took havok on her mom's health.
We uncover the emotional toll of caring for an ill parent and the poor decisions made under the weight of sudden wealth, all while recognizing the healing potential of sharing these stories.
The journey towards self-forgiveness is difficult, yet it is through the freedom of releasing our burdens and finding common ground in our stories that we truly heal and grow.
Molly Stillman is a resilient, inspiring and vulnerable in hopes that it can bring healing to your own journey.
-Links-
https://www.svetkapopov.com/
https://www.instagram.com/svetka_popov/
Molly Stillman blended her painful past with a sense of humor in her memoir "If I Don't Laugh, I'll Cry," tapping into our universal need for vulnerability and self-forgiveness.
Molly Stillman’s journey of facing multiple challenges, including the loss of her mother, financial struggles, and a career detour. Explore how she found resilience and hope in the face of adversity.
Molly candidly shared her experience of squandering a significant inheritance, accumulating credit card debt, and the lessons she learned from it.
Our conversation also turns to the profound connection as highlighted by a guest's serendipitous exchange with Kristin Hannah who not only did a forward on Molly's book, but also used Molly's mom Lynda Van Devanter's book Home Before Morning: The Story of an Army Nurse in Vietnam as research for her newest book called The Women.
Molly shares how her life was impacted as a result of her mom being in the Vietnam War as a young nurse, the lasting trauma that followed for both women, and how agent orange took havok on her mom's health.
We uncover the emotional toll of caring for an ill parent and the poor decisions made under the weight of sudden wealth, all while recognizing the healing potential of sharing these stories.
The journey towards self-forgiveness is difficult, yet it is through the freedom of releasing our burdens and finding common ground in our stories that we truly heal and grow.
Molly Stillman is a resilient, inspiring and vulnerable in hopes that it can bring healing to your own journey.
-Links-
https://www.svetkapopov.com/
https://www.instagram.com/svetka_popov/
I came to a realization in January of 2022 that I had not forgiven myself, that I was still in this cycle of self-criticism, self-condemnation, where I was still blaming myself for a lot of it of it, and I had to get to a point where I was where I could forgive myself. I had to let go of that condemnation, of that shame that I was still carrying. And for a lot of people, a lot of us, that's the hardest, like sometimes the hardest person to forgive is ourselves, yeah for sure. And so that I couldn't write the rest of the book until I had that moment.
Speaker 2:Hey friends, welcome to the Ones who Dared podcast, where stories of courage are elevated. I'm your host, becca, and every other week you'll hear interviews from inspiring people. My hope is that you will leave encouraged. I'm so glad you're here, molly Stillman. Welcome to the Once you Dare podcast. It is an honor to have you on today.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for having me. I'm really honored to be here.
Speaker 2:Well, I read your book. If I Don't Laugh, I'll Cry how Death, debt and Comedy Led to a Life of Faith, farming and Forgetting what I Came in this Room for. And I probably read this book. I could have read it in a day, but I was with my family members on spring breaks. I couldn't just sit all day and read. That would just be unfair to the rest of them. But I would have got it done and finished in like a day, but I think it took me about two and a half days and I was still reading a lot because I love this book. This book made me laugh, it made me cry and it is so incredible and I just want to say that thank you for your courage to be so vulnerable and share all the things.
Speaker 1:Thank you, thank you, it you know it is. It has been the joy of a lifetime. Um, I'm, I'm just really honored and thank you for saying that, cause it's, it's, you know, it's vulnerable. I, I I kind of liken it to, uh, you know, if you uh were to like walk into the middle of Times Square and then just like strip naked and then just say hello everyone, what do you think Like? That's essentially what this process has felt like.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's I mean. Just there's so much in here that I'm like, oh, I can't believe she put this on and I'm so thankful that you did. But how was that for you? Did it feel like? When did you decide this is as much as you're going to share? Was it kind of a process of stripping away some of that? Or how was that process for you of being like super vulnerable?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was. You know I wrote I was really intentionally writing this from a place of healing and so, in in some ways it was I had to. You know, I had to discern between, like, what do I keep private and then what? What is the right thing to share in this moment? And my I mean my goal was obviously, yes, I wanted to like, put the junk out there, but I also I wanted to do it in such a way that gave others the freedom to say man, me too.
Speaker 1:Because I think we live in a we live in a culture, especially with social media, where it's this like calculated vulnerability yes, where it's like I'm going to be vulnerable to win people's approval and attention and maybe that's like a hard pill for people to swallow and really accept, whereas, and so it's this calculated vulnerability where it's like we can be vulnerable to earn this like respect of others. But if we actually shared the really nitty gritty, embarrassing details, we might be afraid that people would be like put off by it or like ashamed or embarrassed or secondhand embarrassment or whatever. And so, yeah, I mean, I think at the end of the day, it's like I wanted there to be a level of I didn't want. You know, especially like coming from kind of a faith perspective. It's like when you bring things out into the light that maybe you've held close for a long time for not necessarily healthy reasons, like the enemy never, no longer has power over them. Like when you bring something into the light out of the darkness, like it doesn't have power over you anymore, right, and so actually somebody had asked me a couple of days ago, just saying like well, how does it feel?
Speaker 1:And I was like I feel so free because I'm writing about these things with the benefit of hindsight, with the gift of hindsight, and so I'm coming at it from a place of healing. But also like it now is one of those things I'm like you can't use this information to blackmail me, or use this information to like to be, like you know, spilling the tea about me behind my back, like I literally put it out there for you. So it's, you know what I mean. So it's one of those things that you can. It feels as though like just this weight, in so many ways, has been lifted off of my shoulders.
Speaker 2:Wow, yeah, that's amazing. And how did you come up with that name, your book name? If I don't laugh, I'll cry I think it's genius. I'm like I feel like this memoir is just gonna like become viral because of the name alone Like, and then when people find out about it. It's you know, and your writing, by the way, is so captivating, so compelling.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, thank you so much, that's so. Oh my gosh, that's so nice. Well, so funny. When I turned in the manuscript, that was not the title that I had. I had a different title. I think it was for laughing out loud. I think that might've been it.
Speaker 1:And I remember just being like that's not it, that's not the title, I don't. It was fine, but I didn't love it. And we were getting closer and closer to the point where, like we needed to have a finalized title. And I remember just being like oh, this is not it, this is not the title. And I went to bed one night, I kid you not, I went to bed one night and I said God, I need you to give me a title, like.
Speaker 1:I was like I can't think of one. I had like written out a hundred different options and I didn't like any of them. And I woke up at 3 am and it just I mean like that. And I was like that's it, that's the title. And I remember I emailed my editor at 3 am and I was like okay, what do you think? This is this title. Just waking up at 3 am, she was like I love it. And as soon as I. It was like I knew that was it. So I really wish it was like I just I had gone through a hundred different titles and I didn't like any of them and then it just the title came to me at 3 am and it's one of those. It's like a phrase that we all said, but it was like this perfectly encapsulates the story.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and the story I mean it's. You know, it doesn't get better than that. You had someone really famous, kristen Hanna, who was the foreword for your book. How did that come about? I'd love to hear the full circle here.
Speaker 1:Oh, my goodness. Okay, so that is another one of those like God's got a sense of humor. So I had been a long fan of Kristen Hanna. I think I read her book the Nightingale in like 2016, something like that and then ended up in like a Kristen Hanna rabbit hole where I started just reading so many of her books she's written 26. I have not read them all yet, but I'm slowly working my way through her catalog.
Speaker 1:But, like her book, the Great Alone, I don't read books more than once. I've read it three times Really. So is that one of your favorite that you have? It is by far my favorite of her books and I love them all, like the Four Winds, so good. The Nightingale, so good. Winter Garden, like Firefly Lane, like they're all so good. But the Great Alone just I've listened to it and I've read the hard copy. Like that's how much I love that book. I made my husband read it. He actually even loved it so and I she made me fall in love with historical fiction as a genre anyway.
Speaker 1:So you know I'd followed her work and so I followed her on social media and it's like you know, just some of your favorite authors you follow on social media and last summer she had posted a teaser for her new book, the women, and it was just, it was literally it didn't have a summary. All it had was like this 15 second clip, like uh, of nothing, and it just had like kind of 60s, like like almost sounded kind of Vietnam war-y music with some helicopters, and then it just said the women, coming February 2024. And immediately I was like this has to be about nurses in Vietnam. There's just no way that it's not. And I started doing some digging, sure enough learned that the novel was going to be about the army nurses in Vietnam. And I thought to myself I said there is no way that Kristen Hanna, in doing her research for historical fiction book about army nurses in Vietnam, there's no way she didn't learn about my mom. Like there's just no way, cause you know my mom was an army nurse in Vietnam and she wrote a memoir and all of that.
Speaker 1:And so, fast forward, I try my darndest to get in touch with Kristen Hanna. Well, like she's Kristen Hanna, like she's one of the most like well-known authors in the world, and so I'm like how am I going to get in touch with her? So I'm just like I'll try and like, send her a DM, thinking like there's no way she's going to read it on Instagram. Sure enough, she the way she tells it, um, is she was just happened to be sitting on the couch like watching TV with her husband and her phone was next to her. She was scrolling social media, which she said she like never does. My message popped up and so she opened it up and she read it and she responded and she was like I would love to connect, and so she sent me an advanced early copy of the Women and I was floored. I mean, I get the book in the mail.
Speaker 1:This was like in August and, out of curiosity, I just kind of scroll to the back to the acknowledgements and I kid you not, there in the acknowledgements is my mom's book home before morning that she used for morning as one of her books in her research, and um, so I of course like ball, like sob, ugly cry, all of it. And then, um, I reached back out to her and she's like you know, did you see it? And I said yes, and so we ended up talking on the phone for a couple hours and we just connected immediately, like just one of those people that, like we just had so much in common, despite our age difference and despite the fact that you know she's been writing forever. And and in that conversation, she, she had no idea that I was writing a book. And in that conversation she's like, have you ever thought about writing a book? And I was like, well, actually interesting, I have a book coming out a month after yours, like, so the timing of it was completely mental.
Speaker 1:Yeah, once in the door, and then we met in person in November. Oh, my gosh, did you freak out. Well, I think at that point we talked enough that it was just, oh, we're finally getting to meet in person. Yeah, and um, I gave her a copy of my manuscript because she'd asked to read it. Um, and then she was just beyond kind and generous and, um, she read it and, uh, she said she loved it and so she wrote an endorsement.
Speaker 1:And then, um, a couple hours later, I get an email and she wrote a foreword and I, like lost my mind.
Speaker 1:I was, was, like I cannot believe that she did this. Like what Cause? I I'm no, I'm nobody, she doesn't know. Like like she didn't need to do that, she didn't owe me that, but she's just unbelievably kind and so she's become a, a dear friend and a and in a lot of ways, kind of a mentor, you know, cause I'm I'm really at the beginning of my writing career, so she's just, you know, been at this for a really long time and so but it and it's just been so cool to hear from people who have then read the women or then read my mom's book and then read my book and it's interesting. So many people have said that my book kind of is almost like a sequel or like the, the, the part two to my mom's book. Yeah, because they're like, you know, you just never knew, like what happened to these women after the fact, like when the dust settled and they had families and the after effects of the war and yeah, so that's how that all happened. It's been, it was crazy, so crazy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's amazing. So I want to kind of segue into your mom's portion too. So your mom was a nurse during the Vietnam War and what like made her want to sign up and what was some of her experiences there that essentially then affected you and your family life and all of that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's, there's a lot. So you know this was the late sixties. My mom was in nursing school at Mercy Hospital School of Nursing in Baltimore, maryland, and you know the war in Vietnam had been going on for a few years but in uh, 67, 68, um, an army recruiter came cause they needed, they needed nurses and um. So this army recruiter comes and is talking about the war in Vietnam and you know it's not like it was today, where obviously, like the news that was being spread here in America was very different than the reality of what was actually happening. And and and also for you know, especially for those of us that didn't grow up during the war and we don't learn about the Vietnam War much in school, and so it was just a deeply, deeply divided time in our country's history and the war was incredibly unpopular. But the way it was framed with this army recruiter was we need nurses and my mom, being just the caretaker that she was, she said know she actually this is one of her quotes from in her book is you know? She said, if those boys are over there being blown apart like, somebody needs to be over there to put them back together. So it was this very like naivete, this patriotism, this like love of country and service and duty and honor. And so she went over there and very quickly. So she, you know, she went in, she enlisted in the army, she goes through basic training, all of that, and she finally gets her orders in June of 1969.
Speaker 1:And a few days later she lands in Vietnam and she was stationed at first at the 71st evacac Hospital in Pleiku, near the Cambodian border. And she very, very quickly, those rose-colored, patriotic-colored glasses were removed and she saw the brutality and the reality of war. That war is hell, it's hell and it was violent and especially the warfare that was used at the time was designed to inflict great pain and damage. And so she, you know, really quickly, was became very jaded and but it's, you know. So she spent the next over a little over a year on that tour of duty there and every day was just pure hell of bloody mess. And then, to cope with it, there was sex and there was drugs and there was alcohol and there was parties, because the soldiers and the nurses and the doctors, they did anything they could to numb the reality of what they were facing.
Speaker 2:I think for us it's hard to imagine the depth of that and how difficult it must have been just seeing body parts blown away and having to sew that together and all the different things that you're exposed to. That is just unthinkable for us, especially who've never been exposed to something like that and live your life, exactly, exactly, and so so.
Speaker 1:And then when she came home, you know it's it you think about, like. You spend a year in war, like trauma after trauma, after trauma, just deep trauma, for a solid year. And then you come home to a country that hates you. The country hated our military, the country hated and blamed the military for the war. And so she lands at Travis Air Force Base, just outside of San Francisco, and they, you know, they come home on this plane, military plane. They land at Travis Air Force Base and there's not even a. The army didn't even give them a ride from the Air Force Base to the airport. So what'd she have to do? She had to hitchhike.
Speaker 1:And so, crazy, she's hitchhiking 20 miles from Travis Air Force Base to the San Francisco International Airport in her fatigues, with her luggage and her duffel bags, in 1970 in San Francisco. And so she's getting. Everybody that drives by is spitting on her, throwing trash at her, calling her a Nazi bee, licking her off, hurling obscenities. Somebody threw a bag of feces at her, a van pulled over and, like, faked her out, said that they would give her a ride to the airport, but then slam the door in her face and spit on her, um, so you know she's coming home and like, immediately, like there's no brass band, there's no welcome home sign, no, um, there's no, uh, you know, pomp and circumstance, it's vitriol and hatred and um, and that's how they, that's how our military women and men were treated. And so she's beginning the process of repressing the war deep, deep down inside and um, she fell deeper and deeper into alcoholism and um, and then you know she's suffering from severe PTSD, which they didn't have a word for, really, at the time.
Speaker 1:And so she's dealing with all of these health problems. She's dealing with PTSD, she's dealing with alcoholism. She goes to the VA and she goes to the VA to get resources. She walks into the VA and the VA intake officer says I'm sorry, we can't help you. Women weren't in Vietnam. The VA themselves is denying the existence of women in war.
Speaker 1:She would go to rallies and marches, for, you know, against the war, with other veterans, and the men, the male veterans, would say you can't be here, you can't march with us, you're not a veteran. And so her entire like service. So you have trauma, I mean just compounding trauma after trauma, after trauma, and so that, of course, like that, just changes the trajectory of her life. And then she, in the process of getting sober, she then writes her memoir Home Before Morning. She, she then writes her memoir home before morning, and that was the, the process through which she was really exercising, uh, the war from from her spirit, her soul. But then also, like it's at a time you know, she published it in 1983 and people find this part so hard to believe. I'm like I tell you this is the truth. Um, so the publisher wouldn't publish. So, so if you find copies of my mom's book that were printed pre-2000-ish 2001, 2002, you'll see that it's by Linda Vannevaner with Christopher Morgan, and that is because the publisher said we cannot publish a memoir about war without a man's name on the cover. Wow, like this is 1983. It's not the fifties, right. And then Sally Field, the actress. Sally Field in the mid eighties had a production company and and optioned my mom's book into be to be in a to a movie. And every single studio that Sally Field took the book to said well, we can't, nobody wants to watch a movie about women in war. And so it never got made and so it got pulled out. And so you know all of that just made.
Speaker 1:But here's the thing is my mom, she was not about to just like sit back and be like okay, was not about to just like sit back and be like okay, if anything, it just fueled her because she didn't want the generation behind her and especially, like once she had me, like she didn't want the women that were coming behind her, the veterans who were coming behind her, to experience the same thing. And so she fought hard, she, she fought long for the rights of women veterans, the acknowledgement, just basic benefits, of these veterans. So much and then, but the war always, like, finds a way to continue to just dig right in there. And then, the fall of 1994, she gets a disease, a rare disease that was attributed to her exposure to Agent Orange while she was in Vietnam. So it was like, more and more like these things, the war just kept taking and taking and taking, and and then she eventually lost her battle with the disease in the fall of 2002, when I was a senior in high school.
Speaker 1:And so you know, it's one of those things where, like I was, you know, 15 years from being born, when my mom was in Vietnam. Yet it took everything, it changed the course of my life. Yeah, so it's, yeah, you know, war is bad man, war is bad Absolutely. Yeah, and I mean war is bad man, war is bad Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I mean your mom was a fighter. She clearly, you know, if you read your book it is, you know you can really see the courage and the audacity that she had just being willing to fight for other women and other people who were also in her place, who didn't have a voice, and so she represented other women that were in Vietnam. And I think, as you were saying what you were just saying earlier about your mom and the women in Vietnam, I was thinking how important it is and significant it is that Kristen Hanna's book is coming out. I mean, it's just crazy. The timing of it is wild. This book is coming out. The woman is just crazy. It is wild. Yeah, it is incredible. And so when you were growing up with your mom, she was already, her health was already affected by agent orange and because of that you had a bit of a different or challenging childhood. It didn't look like other kids childhood. Can you tell us a little bit about that and how that impacted your life as a young girl?
Speaker 1:Yeah, when she was diagnosed with the disease. So she first got sick in the fall of 94 and then she got a more official diagnosis in the spring of 95. After we'd gone to Johns Hopkins, mayo Clinic, everywhere every specialist doctor you can think of she was eventually diagnosed at a specialty hospital in Denver, colorado, that we had traveled to and you know the anybody who has ever dealt with chronic illness of any kind, whether in themselves but, as you know, in a spouse, a parent, a child it takes everything from you. It affects I mean not just financially, but also like it affects, relationships. It affects, like, what are you able to do? I mean, you know my mom would love to do things, but like we always had to make sure that she had access to you know she, she was on a million medications and so it was like we had to always make sure that we had all of her medications packed on a million medications, and so it was like we had to always make sure that we had all of her medications packed and backups for that. And then, you know, was she going to have some type of respiratory episodes? So we had to travel with a nebulizer machine. We had to like I mean it just everything was doctor's appointments and this medication and that medication, and this hospital stay and this surgery, and, and then that's like not even just to mention the PTSD that she still had. Yeah, and she would have these PTSD episodes, and so, in some ways, like I as a kid, like I had to grow up very fast and I had to grow up in a way that other kids my age didn't have to, and but at the same time, I was still a young, immature, selfish kid, and so it was like I was like battling these two personalities almost in my own head, where it was like I'm thinking that, oh well, I have to grow up more and I have to like like be responsible, right. Well, here's a great example.
Speaker 1:It's like my parents had to teach me how to drive by the time I was the age of 11. Because there was this fear that my mom would have these, these medical episodes where she would be like unable to breathe or she would like lose consciousness and all these things, and like this was. You know, this was not really at a time where there were cell phones. There was like the big car like suitcase phones, the big car like suitcase phones, but it was one of those things where it was like we could be out somewhere and if my mom had an episode like I didn't, there was no time to try to find a pay phone to call 911. So it was like you had minutes, you know, to get her to a hospital.
Speaker 1:And so my parents were like, as soon as I could reach the pedals, they were like we're going to teach you how to drive, because if I was somewhere like and I needed to drive my mom to the hospital, then I needed to know how to do that. But like that was not something that other 10, 11 year old kids were learning how to do Right. And so and I also, by the way, because of who my parents were like, of course, my dad taught me on a stick shift, like taught me how to like change all of these. Like he's like, if you're going to do this, you're going to learn how to do it Right. You know my dad doesn't sound like that, but you know.
Speaker 1:So I'm 10 years old, learning how to drive a stick shift. I'm learning how to like get tired and like back up a trailer and all of that stuff. Like cause my dad was just like nope, you're going to know how to do this. And. And so there was like I'm battling in my head this, this like I'm having to mature, I'm having to like take on this responsibility, while also like I'm still very much just a kid, and so it's like you know, I just was like torn between these two mental worlds constantly, and that's one of those things in hindsight that I'm like bless my, bless my sweet little heart.
Speaker 2:And you are a spunky fun kid too. I was.
Speaker 1:I was. I was, I was a handful, but I mean I was a good kid for the most part, until certainly after my mom died. Like I, I I spiraled, but most part, like I, was a pretty good kid. Like I was a I was a rule follower. I was loud and boisterous, but like I was trustworthy. Like if my parents, my parents and I had a good relationship where for the most part, like we, it was about trust and it was like they would let the leash out a little bit to you know, for me to earn their trust and then if I broke that trust and they would rein it back in. But we had, you know, we had that good open relationship where we could talk about anything.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and your home was also. You mentioned how two pillars that you had in your home that kind of you had hope and faith and a lot of laughter. So your family knew how to laugh and how to not take themselves too seriously in serious situations.
Speaker 1:Oh for sure. Yeah, my parents were hilarious, but they also, like you know, they knew that laughter was the best medicine and they were going to do whatever they could to overdose on that. And so, you know, that's not to say that they didn't address or deal with the hard stuff. They did, yeah, but I think in a lot of ways, like they really knew that that laughter was a gift. And and there's actually, I mean there's like scientific research that shows that like people who laugh more, who have a sense of humor, live longer, they have lower rates of anxiety and depression. They have like a good laugh session actually like increases blood flow to the heart. So people who like laugh regularly are less likely to have heart attacks and heart disease.
Speaker 1:I mean, there's actual scientific evidence to this and there was actually a study that was done in Norway a few years ago that they looked at cancer patients and they studied these cancer patients and they studied all of the treatments and the treatments. They were on the exact same regimen of treatments but they looked at which ones had a sense of humor and laughed regularly and which ones kind of lived like resigned themselves to their diagnosis, and overwhelmingly the cancer patients who had the sense of humor, who laughed, who made you know, didn't take themselves and their situation too seriously either were cured or healed or lived longer than those that didn't Like. I mean they like. There's backing to this and so and I think my parents, just they knew that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and there I think there's another study too, too, of this guy who the doctor told him to just watch comedy and I forget there was a specific comedy episodes they had him watch and he was healed of cancer, you know, with his treatment. But that was part of the thing, is that laughing and just. You know enjoying life because, let's face it, life is hard. We all have different set of challenges. You know enjoying life because, let's face it, life is hard. We all have different set of challenges. You know some more extreme than others, but in general we all face difficulty. So if we take ourselves too seriously, it's like it's not serving anybody.
Speaker 1:Well, and you know, and I don't know, obviously, where your listeners are in their you know their individual faith journeys too, but I mean, I always love like I don't think that faith and science actually have to be in competition. I think that they are in connection with each other. And what I love is like there's even there's a proverb, 1722 that says um, laughter does to the heart good like medicine, but a broken spirit dries up the bones. And so it's like like even you know, we even see in scripture that like God created our bodies to like like laughter is healing and a broken spirit can dry up your bones. Like and you just think about, like in general, like when you're in in your life, like the people that you know is what they call like the vampire people, like people that just suck the life out of you, hire people, like people that just suck the life out of you, and it's like you don't want to say it sounds bad, but I'm like you, you much rather would be with the people that just fill your spirit, this fill your soul, like it's not again.
Speaker 1:It's not to say like life is hard, life is hard, and it's not that we shouldn't grieve, that we shouldn't talk about hard things. We absolutely should. But you can't live there permanently because it will. It dries up your soul. It's just not good for you to stay in that place for too long, and it doesn't have to also be an either or Like. You can't hold grief and joy like in tandem. You can feel both of those things at the same time, and there are countless examples of my parents doing that Like where they were in these seasons of just deep, deep pain and suffering and sorrow, and yet like they just had. There are so many stories of like where they just chose in the moment to they could have thrown themselves this pity party, but instead, like, they took the route of like let's laugh at ourselves.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and the gift that was yeah, and I love that you have that same joy and that you know desire for laughter and you're hilarious. One of your dreams was to be in Saturday Night Live, which took you on that. You know there's a whole section in the book that outlines that as well, and I laughed at your book. I also cried at your book, and one of the parts that was really touching to me and I just want to read a part of that this is the part that made me cry is when you stood at your mom's doorway and it says here I stood in the doorway of her room staring at her.
Speaker 2:A pregnant moment of silence hung in the air between us. So much said but even more left unsaid. Molly, sweetheart, I love you. Her eyes were fixed on me. The moment we made eye contact is one of the most vivid memories I have. Her eyes had this haunting look to them, the blues of her irises, bluer than ever before, so blue I could see it from the doorway. And yet there was a haze on them, a strange glassiness I couldn't shake. I stared back at her. I love you too, mom. If the rolling of eyes can have a tone, a voice. This is how I said those words and I closed my door, went upstairs and went to sleep. Yeah, and then can you tell us what happened after that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so after that I went to bed and my mom and I had had a pretty big blowout fight that afternoon and I was being the selfish, immature kid that I was, and we went to bed and we went to bed and the next thing is I was awoken at one something in the morning to my dad shaking me and my dad whispering my name, and in that moment I knew, I knew that my mom had died and, um, and I mean that whole the events of that night are are one of those things where, like every, basically every moment of it is so vividly clear in my memory. Um, and I think and it's interesting like I learned about this about myself later in counseling and a lot of people can, especially trauma-informed experts, can speak to this better than I can, but just I can speak from my own experience is that those who experience trauma either for the most part like lack it out or they can recall every bit in detail, and for this it's the latter for me, where, for the most part, every detail of that night from that point forward is you know, this is 21 years ago and I can still remember it and visualize it, every detail of the night from there on out. And so, yeah, and you know, in the immediate aftermath, obviously, like you can, you can imagine, like, when you wake up to, um, you know what my dad didn't need to say your mom is is gone, like I, I knew, yeah, and um, running downstairs and going into her bathroom and, um, that whole experience, um, you know it, just it's, it's one of those events, like it it then course, changed the course of the rest of my life. Yeah, um, and immediately, immediately, like the regret that I had for how I, the fight that we'd had, how I had spoken to her that night, um, you know, and I, you know I have the benefit of hindsight to know that, like I know she knows that I loved her, but like I really had to work through some stuff for a few years of, like, not carrying the regret for so long for how I spoke to her, the regret for so long for how I spoke to her, and that I, you know the disrespect that I had shown her, you know, and in some ways too, like it's been a gift in that, like I want to make sure that every person in my life that means something to me like knows how I feel about them, that knows that I love them, um, and I and I really also took to heart like the don't go to bed angry, um, because you just never know, you just never know. And so even in like my marriage my husband and I've been married, you know, 12 years now and um, you know not that we get in like fights all the time, because we actually don't, but the few times that we've had disagreements I'm like we're not going to bed till this is resolved, because I will not, I will not, and that has honestly served us well.
Speaker 1:Marriage is, sometimes it just means staying up late and just hashing it out. You know what I mean, but always going to bed with, like knowing that we love each other, you know. And so there was a lot of uh, there was a lot of regret there with how I, how I dealt with that and how I talked to her and um. But I think also all these years later, like I give myself some grace in that like it was a lot for a 17 year old to carry Um and it was a lot and it had been years and years and years of it and um, you know, and it was kind of that again, that tension that I was speaking to earlier about living in this dual world in my own brain, of I had you, know we'd been, we'd been living like this for eight years, and so it was like know we'd been, we'd been living like this for eight years, and so it was like I thought I knew better um than her at that point. But I didn't. But I also I thought I did.
Speaker 2:I thought, I mean, and you were upset at your mom for doing something that you felt was irresponsible, right, right, and because you, you felt like you were her caretaker. You were one of the caretakers, in a sense. Your dad was and you had these responsibilities. That's what a sense your dad was and you had these responsibilities. That's what your parents, your dad, trained you to drive early on and all these different things. You knew the protocols. You knew what happens if. Then you know and I think that when you write in the book that your mom drove somewhere under medication, you were really upset and that's what caused the argument. Yeah, you were essentially being protective of your mom and it upset you to the core and that's kind of all unraveled and I think that is. That is a lot to carry for a child. Um, you know, as you're, you're taking on almost like a parental role for the parents. Yeah, you know, and that's yeah, yeah and that's hard too.
Speaker 1:And I it's interesting I've had so many conversations in the last few months with now, people who, um, are now adults, but they're cared, they're caring for an aging parent where they say, like they have a lot of those same struggles because and I, I mean I mean I, my mom, was a very independent woman, so like, of course, she felt like she could drive herself to the grocery store, even though she couldn't. And so you know, there's that battle that even no matter how old we are I mean I was 17, but I mean I've literally had conversations with people who are in their thirties, forties, fifties, who are caring for aging parents, and they're like Molly, I have the same battles we're sometimes so frustrated with. You know, my parent who is now in their 80s and has dementia and is doing things that they're not supposed to do. Or you know a parent who is, you know, has severe, you know, parkinson's or severe something where, just like they really can't, it's not safe for them to be driving, and then they are, or they, they, they're trying to carry something that they shouldn't be carrying, or, you know, whatever it is like, it's hard because you want to honor and respect your, your parents and then also see them for the whole independent human beings that they are out of just being your parent and it's and it's hard for them to to admit that they're at a point where they need the help, especially people who are incredibly independent in how they live, and that's a hard shift to make and so it's interesting, it's been interesting hearing those stories from people who are like man.
Speaker 1:I related to that so much, even though I was an adult. While this was happening, like I can't imagine what it was like for you as a child. You know and it's not to say that my dad, but my dad, you know, like my dad would travel or he had to work, and so a lot of times like it was just kind of, you know, if my dad was traveling or if he was working, it was me and mom and so we had to trade off that caregiver role pretty frequently.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and also through a chronic sickness like that. I mean, I had mom who had cancer, so I can relate, and she passed away as well and I had moments before, while I was taking care of her, where it was like, you know, she's asking to eat something sweet and we know, you know, sugar feeds cancer. So do I do this or do I do that? And you're like, you know you're, you're conflicted because you want to do what they want and this may be their last week, their last month of their life, and if you're depriving them something they want, you know, it's like there's this battle right of like doing what's good and but with that, you know, the other thing that you experience in the caretaker side or being one of the loved ones is the ups and downs of treatment.
Speaker 2:Like one day it's getting better and you talked about that, and then it's like, okay, we're, you know it looks like things aren't looking good and then they're looking better and then they're not. And so it's like this constant, like roller coaster of emotional ride that you had to deal with as a kid, that you had to deal with as a kid One of the things that I thought about as I was, or just I don't know. I just felt, as I was prepping for this interview, I just feel like I want to tell you that if your mom was here, she'd be incredibly proud of you and proud of the woman that you are today. Thank you.
Speaker 2:You were saying that that really means a lot. Yeah, and the way that you're showing up in the world today, thank you, yeah, thank you. Sorry to me to make us cry, hey, if, if I don't laugh, I'll cry.
Speaker 1:So some days it's basically like I'm like this is great, and then the next minute I'm like yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:But I mean honestly, though, I think that, um, if your mom was here, she'd be so freaking proud of you and and what you're doing, how you're showing up. And I mean this book. It is so incredible. It's it's your story, it's her story, it's her legacy, it's your legacy. There's so much in it and I just recommend it. If you haven't read molly's book, much in it, and I just recommend it. If you haven't read Molly's book, go get it, run, get the book. I promise you, if you love books, if you love memoirs, you're going to finish it in a couple of days, maybe one day. It took her seven years to write it, but most people get it done in a day which is incredible.
Speaker 1:Oh man, I thank God. Thank you so much. That really means a lot. Yeah, that really means a lot. Yeah, that really means a lot, thank you yeah, absolutely well, on to the happy things.
Speaker 2:Um, there was a really interesting moment in your story where you were in college and you just get a check of inheritance and then it like totally changes your life and it's like, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So I was a senior in college and, uh, I got a surprise check on my 21st birthday. It was like it was literally on my birthday um, for uh, nearly a quarter of a million dollars, and it was a surprise inheritance from my the estate of my mom's estranged family, and so I understand that there's a lot to unpack there. And so I did what all like very mature, emotionally stable college seniors do with a quarter of a million dollars and I blew it all in less than two years. And not only blew it all. I then was tens of thousands of dollars in consumer credit card debt and the weight of that, the, the, the, the ripple effect of that. I mean, obviously it was like kind of the next thing that just like, like the death of my mom was really the catalyst for, like, the rest of my life and the course change that my life took. But getting that check, blowing all that money, the shame, the guilt, the embarrassment, the rock bottom that I ended up in, like that, that also changed the course of my life in so many ways, and it was, you know, obviously it's one of those things that now I have the gift of hindsight and I was able to like I was able to learn from it and really actually get into a place where I can say that, while I don't recommend doing that, there's actually like good came from it, which is really something you can only say, like with time and maturity, yes, in that, yes, of course I wish I had done things differently, but also, if I hadn't done things the way I did, then I might be in a very different place than I am now. And so, yeah, it definitely was. It's one of those situations that sometimes I look back and I go I still can't believe that happened. Like that's like a lifetime movie kind of situation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like what are the odds? You know, here's a college kid, it's your 21st birthday and then you open a check for nearly a quarter million dollars. By the way.
Speaker 1:That's after taxes. It's not like I had to pay taxes on that. That was like the taxes had been paid.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's like winning a lottery, which is, the stats in the lottery are pretty similar. People who win lotteries, majority of them actually end up worse off than they were before. Yeah, yeah, because if you don't have the financial know-how, if you don't know how to invest and handle money, then it's like, oh, I get to get all the things I want to buy and all the things and, and then you get. You know, and especially, like you said, you were dealing with grief and there was so much that living in the circumstances that you lived as a kid not having all the things you wanted having. You know your parents were financially affected by your mom's illness, by all the different things, and so growing up it wasn't like you had it all and then you got the check, so it's like, okay, this is something I'm familiar with.
Speaker 1:This was like okay, let's go shopping. Oh yeah, and it's one of those things that, like you know, some people, when they, when they're grieving and all those things, like they might end up, uh, falling into patterns of like drugs and alcohol. And like that just wasn't mine, it was, it's a way less sexy story, because it was like, but then it's something that we just we don't talk about. And it was like, yeah, I made really grossly irresponsible financial choices and this is not a thing that, but it's more common than people realize, right, but it's just not. It's not a thing that's like as fun to talk about, right, but the amount of people who have shared their stories with me as well, about like, oh yeah, like you know, the amount of debt that they got into and all of those things, and it's just like, yeah, I used, all of a sudden, I had I grown up without money and now I had money at my disposal and so, of course, what did I do? Like it was, yeah, it was real fun. Yeah, me and my boyfriend, first class to Rome for spring break you want to know how hard it is to be 21 and flying first class to Rome, like that was real fun.
Speaker 1:Like you know, I went to Fifth Avenue in New York City and I, you know, walked into the Fendi store and bought myself a $3,000 handbag. Like it was nothing, I mean, of course, and there was like just the little things. You know, walked into the Fendi store and bought myself a $3,000 handbag. Like it was nothing, like I mean, of course, and there was like just the little things here and there, but it was like that dopamine hit, that adrenaline that you get from those, those quick fixes. Yeah, it's a similar thing to like when people do drugs and alcohol. It's a similar vibe of just like this. Oh well, this makes me feel good momentarily and it drowns out the thing that I actually don't want to deal with.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I mean, and I think that, to be fair, if most people your age would have been put in that situation, the chances of them being ending up in the same position would have been very common, you know. So I think it's it's when you don't know how and you didn't have the guidance like you write about. You didn't have the guidance of what to do financially, and so it's like okay, I guess I'm just going to go and have fun with it and go shopping. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I think the thing that I've learned and I've I've kind of come to in the last couple of years and for a long time I blamed myself, especially like when I was really struggling in the first couple of years after I ended up in debt and I'm working to get out of debt Like I was in this shame spiral where I was very self-condemnation, all of it.
Speaker 1:Like and to a degree it was true Like yes, I mean, and it was, and I talk about this in the book like I own my mistakes, like I don't place blame on anybody, but I think also there is a balance, so like I look back and I go, however, like how did not a single adult in my life? Like, especially like I think about the people at the bank, I'm like, how did my life go? Like maybe, just maybe, we should introduce her to a financial advisor. Like just maybe, maybe somebody could have a conversation with me, and that just didn't happen and so it's not. I don't blame anybody else, but I think there is a combination of like a just I was a product of my own stupid, young, selfish, immature choices and also the product of I didn't have an adult in my life at the time that I felt close enough to to talk about the situation I was in and possibly get good advice.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Right. And you even asked at the bank. You said, what should I do with this? And I was like, what do I do?
Speaker 1:What do I do? And they gave me horrible advice. Like I look back and I was like that was the worst advice. Who thought this was a good idea?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know, and so it's a common, it's a both, and so it's the fact that I, I own those mistakes, I own what I did. I don't blame anybody. Well, also, I, I should have in hindsight had the, the, the courage to just reach out and like, form an adult relationship with somebody that I could have told what was going on and get some guidance, but I, just I didn't.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I think that's what. That's what I love about your vulnerability in the book that it can teach those who maybe are in that situation Maybe they're afraid to tell somebody that they're really in a tight spot, that they're really are at the wit's end of whether it's a financial situation, you know, emotional, whatever it is that it's okay to reach for help and that's actually the best way to get. You know you need to get help sometimes and there's no shame and condemnation and asking for help when you need it, whether it's hey, I don't know what to do, can you help me? And so I love there's so many different pieces of the book that hit on so many different things in humanity and who we are that are going to help so many people. So I really thank you for being so vulnerable in that. And one last questions before we wrap up with the wrap up questions is what was one of the hardest things to let go of in your process of writing the story?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think the answer to that question actually lies in the early stages of really digging into writing. So, like you had mentioned that it took me about seven years to write this and one of those processes happened actually in January of 2022. And it kind of speaks to what we were just talking about, where I came to a realization in January of 2022 that I had not forgiven myself, that I was still in this cycle of self-criticism, self-condemnation, where I was still blaming myself for a lot of it, blaming myself for a lot of it, and I had to get to a point where I was where I could forgive myself. And so I'm answering your question in that, like I had to let go of that condemnation, of that shame that I was still carrying. And I mean, it's kind of a longer story as to like how I got to that point, but it was this moment of like. I realized that, like I had, I know that God had forgiven me. I know that the people that I had hurt had forgiven me. Like I'd made amends with the people I needed to make amends with, but I hadn't done that with myself.
Speaker 1:And for a lot of people, a lot of us, that's the hardest, like sometimes the hardest person to forgive is ourselves. Yeah, the hardest, like. Sometimes the hardest person to forgive is ourselves, yeah, for sure. And so that I couldn't write the rest of the book until I had that moment. It wasn't until I had that moment where I had to like it was a reckoning in a lot of ways with God where I had to like, get to that moment where I heard God be like you you know, I've forgiven you, right, right, like, why haven't you forgiven yourself? And I had to be like well, you're right, you know, I had and have that, and I was like a. It was like a on the floor crying man what have I done? Kind of situation where I had to like and I had to let that go. I had to release that and, honestly, when I did, I then wrote the rest of that manuscript from a place of complete freedom, wow, where now, like you know, there's a lot of stuff that I wrote that I had never shared with people and I was carrying it and I had to get to a place where it was like I am no longer carrying that weight of shame and condemnation, I am no longer carrying this thing that is so heavy and so.
Speaker 1:So, just like weighing me down, and so I can now write, I can share the story from a place of freedom where, like it doesn't hold, like I was saying at the beginning, like it doesn't hold power over me anymore, it's out in the light and and and now it's like you know, again, nobody can blackmail me, there's no tea anymore because I've put it out there. And so that freedom letting go of that shame and that embarrassment and that condemnation created a place where I could write and share it from a place of full healing and freedom. Wow.
Speaker 2:I love that. Yeah, I think that's going gonna speak to someone for sure, cause when we don't let go of certain things in our lives, you know it holds us back on so many levels. I just had another guest who talked about forgiving herself as well, and that was a big part in a breakthrough of her business, which she has multi-million dollar businesses. So I'm gonna just wanna wrap up here. I know we're getting close to the end of our time and I always end the podcast with asking the same questions, which is what is the bravest thing that Molly has done besides what we've talked about?
Speaker 1:Man.
Speaker 1:I mean, yeah, I think I think just in general, like writing this book, and I think maybe that's a cheap answer, but I would just say, like there have been parts of this that have been absolutely terrifying, absolutely terrifying, like I can't even begin to tell you how terrifying it was, but the knowing that if my story, if sharing my story, can help one person, then that makes it worth it, and I can tell you, like just already hearing from people who are like that, that it's helping people, um, and that has been such a gift because it was really, it's been really terrifying.
Speaker 1:There have been parts of that have been absolutely terrifying, um, and I consider myself to be a pretty brave person and I'll tell you that there were moments where I'm, like I was questioning, like, should I do this? Like this feels really scary and overwhelming and I don't know if I'm cut out for this, and like what if? The what ifs of like, like what about the people who are going to hate it? Or like what are? What are people going to say? Or you know what I mean and coming to a place of complete trust in God that this is exactly what I'm supposed to do. Like that takes incredible courage and like something that I've really had to work through. So I don't know if that was the answer you're looking for, but it's the answer.
Speaker 2:Answer. No, but that is super brave. I mean, I'm also working on a manuscript, so I get it. Yes, and I once had my neighbors because I'm in a neighborhood book club read the first three chapters, just for them to kind of figure out what is best. And when I gave that to them, like you said, you feel like you're stripped naked in Times Square and you're like, oh my gosh. And then this thought occurred like wait, if I'm writing this book for the public and I'm scared for these neighbors to read it, like what am I doing? And so I totally get the struggle. And it is super brave to put yourself out in the world, super brave.
Speaker 1:It's just yeah, it's a wild ride, yeah.
Speaker 2:What is the best advice that someone gave you?
Speaker 1:So this is advice that my mom gave me when I was a kid and it is advice that I take with me all the time and I actually even used it this week on my children, and that is you can start your day over at any time, and what my mom was saying is that there would be days where something would go wrong any time. And what my mom was saying is that, like, there would be days where, like you know, it would just something would go wrong and I would just like let it completely, like ruin my day or whatever, and she would look at me and she'd go honey, you know, you can start your day over at any time, and so we would do this thing where we would like pretend to be like like back to sleep and then like wake up and be like, oh, it's a new day and it was this silly process, but it was this thing that actually has really stuck with me, and I used it just this week on my kids. Like, let's just say that my children were, who were 10 and eight, were at each other's throats at like 6.15 in the morning and I was like it is far too early for y'all to be fighting this level and and I know that this is probably hard to believe that, no, nobody else's children fight at six in the morning, right, absolutely Nobody's, except Molly's. Oh my gosh, it was so bad and it was just one of those like I am not sending y'all to school like this. And so we had this moment where I sat them down.
Speaker 1:And we live on a farm and this is free parenting advice for anybody that wants it.
Speaker 1:So we live on a farm and I also understand that not everybody has access to a farm, but we have baby goats right now, which is like the best season on the farm, so cute too, baby goats are the best.
Speaker 1:And so I took my kids out to the pasture and I put a baby goat in each of their arms and then I made them hash out their thing and it was like I'm telling you with them. It was like baby goat therapy, where we just had this whole conversation and I said we're starting our day over right now, like we're starting it over, so it's a brand new day, and by the end of that conversation, like they're, they were just disarmed. So baby goats starting your day over key parenting pro tips, but also for us too, cause, like think about, you know, if you have this great day and then something goes wrong and it just like ruins the rest of your day, and my mom was just always like you can start your day over at any time, like it is the choice that you can make, and so that's something I've really taken with me into adulthood.
Speaker 2:That's so good, so good. What are three books that were transformative for your life?
Speaker 1:I'm not gonna say the Bible, cause that sounds cliche, so I'm gonna like, obviously, the Bible. But okay, first one, it would be the Glass Castle by Jeanette Walls. It's a memoir and it was the book that made me fall in love with the genre of memoir. That book is just phenomenal.
Speaker 1:And so that book because it again made me fall in love with memoir and then a book called the Power of Place, by a pastor by the name of Daniel Grothe, g-r-o-t-h-e, and that book and it's called Choosing Stability in a Rootless Age Excuse me, that's a subtitle, it's the Power of Place, choosing Stability in a Rootless Age, stability in a rootless age.
Speaker 1:And it was transformative as far as like, essentially, the crux of the book is about how we live in this age of wanderlust where it's like when things get hard, when the relationship gets hard, we leave. When the church gets like we don't like the church we're in anymore, we leave. When the town we live in we're bored, we leave like where we live in an age where just people, as soon as it gets hard, we peace out of whatever the situation is, and um, and and that book, and so he talks about like just the power of like planting roots not just in relationships, but also in community, with like finding your people and your place and like choosing to stay there even when it's hard. It's just a beautiful book it's. I recommend it to literally every single person that I that I talked to. I reference it all the time.
Speaker 2:You're like hi, my name is Molly, here's the book you need to read. Yes, you need to read this book.
Speaker 1:So there's that one, and then the third is I'm going to say my mom's book, um, home before morning, and, and the reason I say that is cause I actually didn't get a chance to read it while she was alive.
Speaker 1:I didn't read it till after she died and I regret that um, partly because she wouldn't let me read it when she's alive, um, and I I understand why she's alive, um, and I I understand why, um, because it was it's pretty, it's pretty brutal, um, and I think in a, in a way, she didn't want me to to know those things until I was ready, um, but it gave me a new understanding and respect for who she was as a human being and then also, like like we were talking about earlier, like the, the women and the men who who have served our country, and just the honor and the respect that they deserve. And so it gave me a new honor and respect for not just our military men or not just our nurses, but also our military men and women. And so anytime I see somebody who has fatigues on or a veteran's hat on, like, I always make a point to thank them for their service and because I believe that that honor and respect is due.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I love that. Well, molly, where can people find you?
Speaker 1:So I'm still being Molly. Is my handle on all the social medias at still being Molly? My podcast is called Can I Laugh on your Shoulder and you can get the book? If I Don't Laugh, I'll Cry. Wherever you get books online, you can definitely find it anywhere and then in person. I know Barnes and Noble has it and then some indie bookstores have it as well.
Speaker 2:Awesome. Well, thank you so much for your time. It was such a pleasure talking to you and please do go get her book, because it is incredible and you're going to love it.
Speaker 1:I'm so honored to be here. Thank you so, so much for having me.
Speaker 2:Thank you for listening to the Once we Dare podcast. It is an honor to share these encouraging stories with you. If you enjoy the show, I would love for you to tell your friends. Leave us a reviewer rating and subscribe to wherever you listen to podcasts, because this helps others discover the show. You can find me on my website, speccapapacom.