Is Compersion Easier For Some More Than Others? with Dr. Marie Thouin

Episode 105:

Is Compersion Easier For Some More Than Others? Exploring How Social Positionality Influences Compersion with Dr. Marie Thouin

In this episode, I welcome back Dr. Marie Thouin, a leading expert on compersion, to discuss her most recent research and findings. We delve into the complexities of compersion and its intersection with social positionality, examining how factors like age, race, gender, sexual orientation, socioeconomic status, and geographical location influence the experience of compersion in consensually non-monogamous relationships. 

Dr. Thouin shares insights from her new book, detailing the socio-psychological aspects of compersion, its broader applications beyond CNM, and the importance of supportive communities. The episode also highlights future research directions and practical advice for those navigating non-monogamous relationships.

Connect with Marie:

Compersion Website | Website | Instagram

Buy Marie’s Book:

Roman and Littlefield | Amazon

Episode 51: Embracing Compersion: The Transformative Power of Joy in Non-Monogamous Relationships with Dr. Marie Thouin

00:00 Introduction and Hypothesis

00:22 Welcome to the Relationship Diversity Podcast

01:27 Introducing Dr. Marie Thouin

05:23 Defining Compersion

11:14 Social Positionality and Compersion

22:12 Age and Compersion

30:13 Geographical Location and Compersion

32:52 Socioeconomic Status and Compersion

36:09 Race and Compersion

40:20 Sexual Identity and Compersion

43:03 Future of Compersion Research

50:27 Conclusion and Resources

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Transcript

Dr. Marie Thouin: 0:00

I had made the hypothesis that the more privileged someone would have, maybe the more compersion would be accessible to them, because maybe they have more access to communities, to resources, to the kind of financial independence that would allow them to feel generous and to not feel so threatened if their partner is going to be with someone else and really it's not that simple else, and really it's not that simple.

Carrie Jeroslow: 0:25

Welcome to the Relationship Diversity Podcast, where we celebrate, question and explore all aspects of relationship structure diversity, from soloramory to monogamy to polyamory and everything in between, because every relationship is as unique as you are. We'll bust through societal programming to break open and dissect everything we thought we knew about relationships, to ask the challenging but transformational questions who am I and what do I really want in my relationships? I'm your guide, keri Jaroslow, bestselling author, speaker, intuitive and coach. Join me as we reimagine all that our most intimate relationships can become. Today's episode is part of our conversation series. I'm just one voice in this relationship diversity movement and it's important to bring more unique perspectives into the conversation.

Carrie Jeroslow: 1:25

Today I'm so excited to bring back on my beautiful friend and leading compersion expert, dr Marie Tuin. I first spoke with Marie almost exactly one year ago about her groundbreaking research on compersion, and she's back a year later to talk about all that's transpired over the past year, including the recent release of her new book, and about some of her findings about social positionality in relation to compersion. I learned so much from her and was really surprised with what her research uncovered. I'm also going to link her first episode in the show notes because, although we do define compersion towards the beginning, that episode will provide a great foundation for this one. But first a little about her. Marie Tuin, phd, is the author of what is Compersion? Understanding Positive Empathy in Consensually Non-Monogamous Relationships the first ever comprehensive book on compersion. Marie has published seminal research studies the first encyclopedia entry on compersion, and is the creator of wwwwhatiscompersioncom, a popular website that features her research blogs and a list of resources on the topic of compersion. Her work has been featured in several magazines and podcasts, including Elle, the Savage Love Cast and Multi-Amory. She's also the founder of Love Insight, a mindful dating and relationship coaching practice, where she supports and guides people of all backgrounds and relational orientations to create intentional and vibrant love lives.

Carrie Jeroslow: 3:20

Let's get into the conversation. Hello everyone and welcome to this episode of Relationship Diversity Podcast. I have my friend here, dr Marie Tuin. I can call you my friend now and you are the first repeat guest that I've ever had. Our first episode together on this podcast was a year ago, june 8th 2023. We had just met. I think I felt instantly connected to you when I first met you and over this past year we've actually met in person twice and I just feel so much love and gratitude for the work that you do in the world. You are the leading expert and I'm going to say that you are the leading expert on compersion, and I am going to have your first episode tagged so people can go listen, because that was an amazing episode and so much has happened in this past year that we're going to talk about. But first let me welcome you, my friend Dr Marie Thuen. Back to the podcast, welcome back.

Dr. Marie Thouin: 4:38

Oh my gosh, Keri, thank you so much. I'm so honored to be your first repeat guest and to be your friend. I just really adore you and I adore your podcast and the work you do in the world as well. So thank you for the beautiful words and for welcoming me again on your podcast. I'm so excited.

Carrie Jeroslow: 5:00

I'm so excited because we have so many new things to talk about. I'm so excited because we have so many new things to talk about and it has been a whole year since we last heard from you on this podcast. You're all over the place, which is amazing. We will get into kind of what this year, this past year, has held for you, specifically with your research and the projects that you're working on. And I want to start with the foundation. For anyone out there who does not even know what compersion is, has never heard the term from the leading expert on compersion, Marie. Can you give us a definition of compersion, what it is and how it feeds into relationships?

Dr. Marie Thouin: 5:43

Thank you for starting there. It's a good foundational question, and one thing that happened in this past year is me and Dr Sharon Flicker co-authored an encyclopedia definition of compersion. That was the first ever encyclopedia definition of compersion in any book, which this one was the Springer Encyclopedia of Sexual Psychology and Behavior and so it was really great to be able to really look at all the research and the literature that had already been created, which honestly there's not a ton but to look at all other people's definitions of compersion and really come to an agreement about what is it at the core. And we actually had to split it between three definitions, and the first two pertain to non-monogamy specifically. The first one is the broad range of positive emotions that one might feel in response to their partner's other intimate relationships. So that's the more traditional definition of compersion. So I'm happy because my partner is happy with someone else.

Dr. Marie Thouin: 6:53

But what we discovered through our research is that there's also within the realm of non-monogamy, still something called attitudinal compersion, and we did talk about it last year. That was one of the main points of my research, but it felt important to distinguish it. So the second definition was the broad range of positive thoughts, attitudes and behaviors that one might experience in relations to their partner's other intimate relationships. So that's not when you're necessarily feeling empathic happiness, but when we're interpreting our partner's other relationships as a positive event and that counts. That's also compersion. And then the third definition we added to include the more broad use of compersion as a word to talk about positive emotions, attitudes, thoughts and behaviors in response to someone's gratifying experiences in any context. So hey, I'm happy you're having a successful podcast. Oh, you just hit 100 episodes. That is so cool. I'm happy for you, yay.

Carrie Jeroslow: 8:06

Thank you, yes, right right, I think we touched on that in our last conversation, in that it really does apply to so many different relationships. If we can be happy for other people, for their happiness.

Dr. Marie Thouin: 8:21

Absolutely, and I think that's a very great litmus test of how we feel about people. When we feel like we're on the same team with them and the floodgates of love are open, it doesn't mean we might not have envy or jealousy or other emotions as well, but fundamentally I think that healthy love has to be inclusive of wanting this person's well-being and happiness.

Carrie Jeroslow: 8:48

And I have had the experience where it's not just how I feel about the other person, but it's also how I feel about myself.

Dr. Marie Thouin: 8:56

Yes.

Carrie Jeroslow: 8:56

So we've got a foundation for this and congratulations on getting that definition into that dictionary. I'm sure you're working on other dictionaries.

Dr. Marie Thouin: 9:06

Yeah, yeah, I mean, actually this was an encyclopedia, but the dictionary would be the next step, and I have emailed the Merriam-Webster a few times to ask them to add compersion to their dictionary and I got a response the first time saying that it was not used widely enough, and then the last two times I did not get any response. So I guess not yet, but hopefully soon.

Carrie Jeroslow: 9:31

Yes, and all the work that you're doing, I think, is helping to bring the word into the vocabulary more of I'm not yet ready to say mainstream vocabulary, but I think that it is on its way to be used more frequently, to be included in that dictionary. So I think that leads perfectly into what has been going on over the last year with your work, with your research and your projects.

Dr. Marie Thouin: 10:03

Thank you so much for asking. So yeah, it's been a big year. By the end of the last episode, I was telling listeners that I was writing a book.

Carrie Jeroslow: 10:13

I was working on it.

Dr. Marie Thouin: 10:15

I had just gotten a book contract with Roman and Littlefield, and so I spent the last year writing it, and then it's publishing on June 18th.

Carrie Jeroslow: 10:25

I think this will be coming out right around that time, so if you missed the pre-order, you will definitely be right in time to order it June 18th Amazing.

Dr. Marie Thouin: 10:35

Yes. So it's been really an adventure and, to be honest, when I started writing this book, I thought it was going to be more or less easy, because I already had all of the research done and I had my dissertation done. But what I realized is that I needed to actually do more research and a lot more writing to create a really great, comprehensive, scholarly book that people read and really get a lot out of that people read and really get a lot out of. So I decided to go on and do an additional set of research, a set of interviews with people, to tackle two things. One was social positionality and compersion.

Dr. Marie Thouin: 11:17

So one thing I had not addressed in my dissertation initially was the intersection of compersion with different identities like age, gender, race, sexual orientation, socioeconomic status, disability status and so on. So I thought that was a missing point. And then I also went back to my initial interviewees that I interviewed in 2018 and asked them again a bunch of questions about compersion and their relationship situations and their social positionality. So that basically doubled my research, and I am so glad I did it because that, in addition to also my experience as a coach, working with non-monogamous individuals every day, has really enriched my perspectives.

Carrie Jeroslow: 12:08

Definitely, and I think I have seen articles out there that say non-monogamy polyamory is just for elitist white folk, and so I think that this research is really helping to bring more of a light into all of the people that are practicing this. So what are some of the results that you found from your research?

Dr. Marie Thouin: 12:35

Oh my gosh so much.

Carrie Jeroslow: 12:36

There's so much right Like, what are some of them? Where do you want to start?

Dr. Marie Thouin: 12:40

Well, I think I want to start with addressing what you just said, which is that kind of stereotype of consensual non-monogamy as this white elitist liberal thing. There was actually recently an infamous article in the Atlantic polyamory, the latest fad of the ruling class.

Carrie Jeroslow: 13:00

I read it.

Dr. Marie Thouin: 13:01

People who want to participate in such studies are people who have more disposable income, more time or maybe connected to certain social media platforms where they might hear about those studies. They might also have less to lose if they were to be outed as non-monogamous. I know it's not just a matter of race and socioeconomics. There are so many factors that can come into the risk benefit analysis for someone to be out, the geographical location and just whether or not they have children and all of that. So in general, people that we see as the representatives of non-monogamy tend to be people with more privilege. But that doesn't mean that this is really who's practicing it. There's previous research that says that really CNM, or consensual non-monogamy, is practiced by people across the political spectrum, across gender identities, across sexual orientations, across race and across socioeconomic status. So it's really a myth that this is just a white hippie thing. It's just what we see more of.

Carrie Jeroslow: 14:43

Right, and so we need to be changing that and bringing somehow more safety for people to be able to speak out or to report what they're doing. I know that some of your work is starting to do that, some of the additional research that you did for your book.

Dr. Marie Thouin: 14:54

Right, right, because I really did, you know, in my last round of research, sought out the more diverse and more truly representative sample, and I'll start with giving you an arc of what I found, and it's the idea that, really, privilege does not correlate with compersion.

Carrie Jeroslow: 15:13

You would think it'd be the opposite.

Dr. Marie Thouin: 15:15

You would think. I think I had assumed at the beginning of this research I had made the hypothesis that the more privilege someone would have, maybe the more compersion would be accessible to them, because maybe they have more access to communities, to resources, to the kind of financial independence that would allow them to feel generous and to not feel so threatened if their partner is going to be with someone else. And really it's not that simple, Because when someone does not have as much privilege, two things might happen, and everything I'm about to say is highly contextual. So there's no plain rules. It really depends on where people are at in their lives and their relationship ecosystems. But sometimes people who have less privilege might have more to gain from non-monogamy. Let's say, people who are older. They need mutual care, they need not to be just independent doing their own thing all the time. They need a support system, maybe more than people who are younger do. And to have polycules rather than nuclear family might be the best possible thing which promotes compersion. Same thing with people who might have financial difficulties.

Dr. Marie Thouin: 16:31

If you're trying to make it in a lot of places in America on nuclear family kind of income. It can be super challenging. But if you add some metamors in the picture who are actually contributing to the success and the stability of the family unit, that can be a really great catalyst for compersion of what to gain.

Carrie Jeroslow: 16:52

Definitely and I'm thinking as a parent having a support system. I always wish that I had a support system through parenting, and even when you're saying something about adding another salary or another income stream is like, oh, it relaxes and rests my nervous system, so I can understand how that would be supportive and supportive towards compersion.

Dr. Marie Thouin: 17:17

Right, right.

Dr. Marie Thouin: 17:19

The other factor that can really promote compersion is the willingness to dismantle internalized mononormativity and that is the idea that monogamous is the only way to really love and mononormativity, and that is the idea that monogamous is the only way to really love and mononormativity.

Dr. Marie Thouin: 17:38

That assumption that monogamy is best is really intricately connected to other forms of oppression in society, like white supremacy and patriarchy and private property and socioeconomic disparities. And when you start really looking at these different systems they can be very connected. And people who already have found themselves on the other side of a system of privilege let's say, someone who is queer, has already dismantled heteronormativity, has already fought the battle of coming out as queer it's going to be potentially easier for them to then question monogamy and to do away with it Because they might already see themselves as outsiders to the mainstream or already in opposition to some of the mainstream injustices and they might have sometimes like less privilege. In that case it might be a little bit scarier to lose one more area of privilege, but it can also be easier psychologically and they might already be part of a community that is sex positive and all about authenticity and liberation and questioning the norms. So that can be another factor that makes this whole equation between compersion and social positionality not so obvious and very multifaceted.

Carrie Jeroslow: 19:09

That is so interesting. Yes, I can see. It's almost like when you have faced something that is a coming out and is a saying this is who I am, then, yes, there is that fear, but there is also I have done that and come through not everyone I know, but a lot of people. I've done that. I've come through, I've found my people, I've found the people that accept me and love me and I know that I'm okay and that there might be creating more of a motivation to continue moving in, that, if it's safe and I have support from my community, exactly.

Dr. Marie Thouin: 19:51

Exactly, and I have support from my community, exactly exactly. Having support from a community is really one of the key factors of compersion in general. Whatever people's identities are, having a community that is supportive of a non-monogamous identity is super key. So the more you have that, even if you have less privileges in some other ways, you are likely to potentially experience more conversion, depending, of course, on everything else that's happening.

Dr. Marie Thouin: 20:23

Another thing about that in terms of people of color and people who come from cultures that are more communal and less individualistic, oftentimes people have already more of a propensity for sharing and people, on the other hand, who are very privileged, might have more of an individualistic mentality where we have never really learned how to share really, and we've always learned to be and I say we because I identify like that I come from a middle class white family in Canada with the mentality of you should do everything yourself, you should not depend on anyone, you should be so autonomous and not really ask other people to take care of you, and there is a sort of power and empowerment that come from that. But on the other hand, well, it's disempowering because I really had to learn about friendship and sharing and being part of communities where we can help each other.

Carrie Jeroslow: 21:23

So it's almost working against the thought that privilege creates more compersion. Because of these cultural differences Specifically, I know I grew up thinking I want to have what's mine, this possessiveness I'm going to work to possess whatever material things, but that I think it leads into the idea of relationships and partnerships and owning. It feels very twisted when I say it, but in that idea of monogamy, of I own this person and we own each other in this weird way, does that make sense?

Dr. Marie Thouin: 22:02

Yeah yeah, that kind of capitalistic private property, like almost imperialistic mentality I think does bleed into relationship or really it can palady I think does bleed into relationship or really it can.

Carrie Jeroslow: 22:17

Yeah, so I know you also looked at age. Can you talk a little bit about your findings through the ages? I love this part because if anyone's listened to my other episodes, they'll remember that I am fascinated by generations and by different ages and the differences of different generations. And I know you looked at I think you started in the 20s or 30s in your research.

Dr. Marie Thouin: 22:39

Yes, yes, I started with people in their 30s, all the way through people 65 and above and even though it was a small sample, I came up with a lot of different stories and examples of how compersion dynamics can really change across the lifespan.

Dr. Marie Thouin: 22:57

So people in their 30s, for example, oftentimes were coming to a place in life where they were changing their priorities. Instead of perhaps dating a lot of different people and discovering their sexuality, which might have been really favorable for compersion, they might have come to a time where they want to settle down and build a family crossroads where sometimes, if they already had a community of support and a polycule of supportive partners and metamors, they might double down on, like, the benefits of non-monogamy and double down on compersion and feel so grateful that they could raise a family in a non-monogamous environment. But people who were single oftentimes had a hard time really picturing like, okay, I really want an anchor partner, I want to find the other parent for my future children and because the non-monogamous pool is small it's maybe 5% of the population they were struggling to think am I going to be able to do this in a non-monogamous environment? So that could sometimes impact the ability to feel compersion because you might have shifting priorities.

Carrie Jeroslow: 24:21

Yeah, I talk about that a lot.

Dr. Marie Thouin: 24:23

So it's not so much age but stage of life and what are your priorities at every age. Another category that was super interesting to me was people over 60 or 65. And that's where oftentimes they would call it the golden age for CNM. And again, as I said earlier, they would have more to gain by being in a consensually non-monogamous relationship because they wouldn't be alone taking care of each other in like a heteronormative marriage, for example, where oftentimes there's also a gender piece where men go into a need for care earlier, and then there's a lot of women who then become full-time nurses.

Dr. Marie Thouin: 25:08

And if maybe there had been another partner, another girlfriend that originally might have been a challenge in terms of jealousy and competition, then maybe if there was someone else to take care of that husband, the initial rivalry would turn into compersion really quickly. Thank God I'm not alone to take care of this person and caring for this person. Another thing would be people in upper age ranges typically have a lot of experience with polyamory and they've had time to work out their insecurities. No one is really comparing like who has the most amazing body anymore. They're just really wanting to have a great life and like they have less fucks to give, if I may say that on your show.

Carrie Jeroslow: 25:53

You absolutely may, and I'm in my fifties and I'm seeing that already begin, maybe not to the extent yet of what you're talking about, but there is definitely. Again, it's a focus on what's important, and the importance is less on that person has a better body than me or like my body, but more so connection and feeling love and expanded love. So I see those priorities changing.

Dr. Marie Thouin: 26:25

Right. And another thing is when they were in the same ecosystem for a long time with the same metamors, sometimes they would have observed their metamors go through difficult stuff and instead of just having this jealousy or this kind of romanticization of their metamors as like, oh, they're so lucky, I'm comparing myself negatively to them, it would be like, oh wow, they just went through the death of their parent. It would be like, oh wow, they just went through the death of their parent.

Dr. Marie Thouin: 26:59

They're a human being just like me. Let's actually embrace their humanity rather than see ourselves as separate.

Carrie Jeroslow: 27:01

Wow, that's powerful. Those kind of perception changes, I think, can definitely help with compersion and coming together. Anything else in the age area?

Dr. Marie Thouin: 27:15

I do have a funny story for you, because the age category, or the age section of my book ends with a really fun anecdote that's called post-death compersion. Oh, and that came up from an interview with a 75-year-old man who had been poly for a long time and he said compersion actually expands after death, after people die. At our age we go to a lot of funerals.

Carrie Jeroslow: 27:42

And.

Dr. Marie Thouin: 27:43

I was at my buddy's wake the other day and people were standing around the coffin saying the kind of good things that people normally say around someone who died Like oh he was so competent, he was so nice.

Dr. Marie Thouin: 27:57

Blah, blah, blah. And then a woman starts saying, yeah, he could really give good head. And then his widow just smirks and nods her head gently. And then another woman who had been a lover of his says, oh yeah, he could really give head. And they were all complimenting him on his sexual skills. After death and having this experience of compersion, they had been this man's lovers and they were having this shared, communal, positive, raw, tender experience together.

Carrie Jeroslow: 28:32

I love that and I would like to have been a fly on the wall on that one. Wow, that's great, yeah, because I think when you're in it, there's so much that you get triggered by that can work against a compulsive attitude or feeling. But when it's all said and done, you're like well, this is where I am, and a lot of times I think it comes from fears and feeling not good enough or not as good or not as worthy, and I think as you age, those things either work their way through or you just have a different perception of what that even is and how you show up in the world.

Dr. Marie Thouin: 29:19

Absolutely, absolutely. To close that section when people of a certain age lose their hinge partner let's say, two women lost their common male partner in a heteronormative relationship they would really be the best person to support each other, because they would really get it. They would be grieving the same person, and so there can be a form of compersion there too. It's not the kind of traditional definition of compersion, but there's this sense of we're in this, together, we're loving the same person together.

Carrie Jeroslow: 29:56

That's so powerful and supportive, which I think a lot in its best CNM is supportive when we're feeling good. It's not always because we're always working through our stuff, but that just sounds like a really beautiful supportive experience. So I'm curious about geographical location and how that aspect of social positionality affects compersion.

Dr. Marie Thouin: 30:24

Yeah, that is a big one and I didn't study it at length. I don't have a full section, but it kept coming up and people really told me that it had a huge influence on how much community belonging they could access. So people who lived in more rural area or more conservative areas typically did not have as easy access to CNM communities. They typically did not have access to any diverse CNM communities. Like people of color typically said.

Dr. Marie Thouin: 31:00

I have to fly to Atlanta or New York City or Los Angeles to have really racially diverse CNM communities and parties to go to, Otherwise it's very white. So geographical location had a lot to do with access to community, which in turn has a lot to do with promoting compersion, Because when you are feeling like you have a supportive community to be with, then there's more of a sense of abundance, you can find partners more easily and you also have a lot of role models and networks to support you if you're going through hardship or to model non-mononormative behaviors like compersion, and as humans we learn by example. So having community is really key and the more you are in an urban area where there are those communities available, then the more access you have to that.

Carrie Jeroslow: 32:02

Yeah, I can imagine being isolated leads to more jealousy instead of compersion because, like I, got to hold on to what I have because I don't have a lot of ways to connect with other people in this small town.

Dr. Marie Thouin: 32:19

Yeah, I think that you are spot on there. And the other thing I'll add is also oftentimes in a small town, it's more risky to be outed as different, especially if you live in a more religious place where people can not only maybe not give you the job or there's things like that, where there's no protected category, but they can really come after you. They can really come after your parental rights and housing rights, and that is really dangerous and scary.

Carrie Jeroslow: 32:51

Definitely so. On the heels of geographical location, can we move towards socioeconomic classes and what you found in terms of that with relation to compersion?

Dr. Marie Thouin: 33:06

because they could have ample time to have multiple relationships and to hire a babysitter maybe if they wanted to go to a play party and whatnot, so that can bring a little bit more access and benefits in that realm. But other people said that actually having financial difficulties had promoted compersion because perhaps like a metamor would move in with them and help with the chores and with the groceries and with the rent and that would have really enhanced compersion because there was more resources in the pool. So I think it really depends on are the metamors relationships adding or taking away, in terms of how socioeconomics will intersect with compersion?

Carrie Jeroslow: 34:15

Which goes back to your original research about metamors and the things that will have more of a compulsive environment and then things that will work against compulsion, is the relationship with your metamors. Again, I'm going to encourage people to please go back and listen to that episode because it really goes into that more and I really identified with that idea of the relationship and your feelings towards your metamor and how much that supported my feelings of compersion.

Dr. Marie Thouin: 34:53

Right Like the more there is to be grateful for in a relationship, the more compersion you're going to feel Exactly in a relationship the more compersion. You're going to feel Exactly. Compersion is both about empathy and gratitude. The more the contextual factors can stoke this gratitude, the more compersion there's going to be.

Dr. Marie Thouin: 35:13

I'll say one more thing about the socioeconomic status department is that there is actually research that says that people who are in lower statuses tend to have more ability to be generous and to share, and that is so interesting, because of course I don't want to generalize and say that's everybody, but oftentimes people who have more resources again have this mentality that they should do everything themselves and they should be fiercely independent and they just don't need to share as much. So maybe that muscle is in this area. So let's talk more about race and compersion.

Carrie Jeroslow: 36:09

What did you find about that intersection?

Dr. Marie Thouin: 36:14

Super interesting because, again, there's always those factors that hinder compersion, and one of the factors that I found hinders compersion is the lack of representative communities for people of color in a lot of geographical locations, not everywhere. In a lot of the country you go to a non-monogamous community and it's mostly white and a lot of people of color will not see themselves represented and might not feel like it's their place to get support, so that can be a deterrent for people to experience the benefits of community and therefore what could translate into compersion. On the other hand, people who are from cultures that are more communal typically again have more experience in the realm of sharing, and another thing is they oftentimes have been marginalized by a system of oppression that they are no longer really afraid to question and to question every part of it. So I had a really great conversation with Evita Sires, who is a poly activist, and she helped me find the term compersion as resistance and that is the idea that as a person of color, you have been told that your existence is less worthy than a white person's. You've received that message from society. You've been marginalized based on your skin color and that can be internalized as oppression and this narrative that you're worthless or worth less than the next person, and you can take that in one of two ways.

Dr. Marie Thouin: 38:06

In a context of non-monogamy, it can fuel more competition and jealousy and insecurities, especially if there's metamors of different racial backgrounds. But some people will take this situation and go the other way and develop this kind of positive defiance and resistance and say you know what? I'm not going to come from that place. I'm going to come from a place of abundance and, yes, I have a lot to share and we're all in this together and we're not oppressing each other through this non-monogamy situation. We're actually being oppressed by the system, but let's actually really share and have this radical mode of relating where we're actually resisting the whole system that's telling us that, no, we need to possess, we need to control, we need to dominate, we need to feel bad about ourselves. Actually, we can be an activist through our relationships and through not only the way we act but the way we feel.

Carrie Jeroslow: 39:11

That makes my heart come alive, because to be an activist in love and in doing things differently in that way is really exciting.

Dr. Marie Thouin: 39:23

Right, right. It really brings back a sense of agency. And, yes, I don't need to be told what to do, what to feel, how to relate, how to treat people. And even when I'm not feeling compersion emotionally, I can still behave compersively. I can still have a compersion ethic guiding my behaviors and how I treat people, and that is activism, that is world-changing.

Carrie Jeroslow: 39:51

Definitely Wow Powerful. I'm excited to see where that work goes. I just interviewed Dr Christopher Smith about the intersectionality between race and non-monogamy and they're doing some really interesting work and is teaming up with other people of different races to do that kind of research, so that's very exciting, which I'm sure will help the research with compersion as well. Let's go to sexual identity, sexual orientation. What did you find with your research there?

Dr. Marie Thouin: 40:29

That might have been the easiest category to research, because it was very obvious that there was a big Venn diagram between people who are not straight and people who are non monogamous, and one usually promotes the other, because not being straight oftentimes positions you outside of mainstream society and also might come along with a lot of sex positivity and a celebratory attitude towards authentic sexual expression, even when it's countercultural. So people who have already broken the walls of heteronormativity tend to be more inclined to be non-monogamous. And people who are not straight or gay, people who are either bisexual or pansexual, oftentimes have this kind of inherent orientation towards sexual fluidity, where it invites the idea that one person might not be your all in all all, and a lot of my participants actually said that they came towards non-monogamy because they had a partner of one gender and they just really felt like they wanted to also have a partner of another gender because one gender was not completely fulfilling to their desires. So I think that is really wonderful, because the poly community is often very queer.

Carrie Jeroslow: 42:02

Yeah, and I can see how it creates a very different mind and heart set, which, when you're feeling like, well, I am attracted to all different genders and agender as well, and it makes sense that if I'm going to want to live into my true authenticity, that I'm going to want to have the experience with different people to satisfy and to fulfill those aspects of me. So I can see how that can definitely create more compersion.

Dr. Marie Thouin: 42:36

Right, right. I had a participant who was saying that compersion is ultimately very romantic. Because I'm your partner, I want to give you what you really want. It is to have a man and a woman. They're present with you, making love with you. That's what I want you to have. That's the highest expression of romance for me.

Carrie Jeroslow: 42:57

I love that. Yes, yes, may we all move in that direction. Are there certain areas that you're really excited to go into with further research in these areas?

Dr. Marie Thouin: 43:12

It would be very interesting to look at it with a bigger sample because really I only had about 22 people in my initial sample and I also conducted seven additional interviews with CNM educators and activists and experts and coaches to get more perspectives, but ultimately it would be great to have a bigger sample to investigate those things. I feel like I just scratched the surface of this kind of research. It hadn't been done before and I hope it will be done a lot more. So more of everything.

Carrie Jeroslow: 43:52

I'm so thankful that you have gone through all of this about social positionality and compersion. What I love is that you haven't talked a lot about this in other podcasts, and so I think it's just a great thing to bring to people's attention. But there's so much more in your book about compersion, and you have spent the last several years researching all of these other areas that you talk about in your book. Where do you see the field of compersion research going in the future?

Dr. Marie Thouin: 44:25

I think we need a lot more research in general with bigger samples.

Dr. Marie Thouin: 44:30

So in my book I talk about a compersion model that really takes into consideration the factors that promote compersion and the factors that hinder compersion and what impact they have in someone's relationship ecosystem. And I developed that model from a small sample of qualitative data. So it would be so interesting to test that with bigger samples of people and see are there holes in that model or can it expanded or is it really a solid model that includes everyone and that works for everyone? So that would be a really great research project for somebody. And I really would love to see compersion researched in other areas besides non-monogamy, because the field of positive empathy in general in psychology is under-researched. We have a lot of empathy research that talks about empathy for negative and sad life events, but we don't have a lot of research about positive empathy and sharing other people's joy. So I would love more research to be done on that in all relationships monogamous siblings, relationship, friendships, colleagues and how these experiences really impact our lives and impact society.

Carrie Jeroslow: 45:55

I second that because I think that compersion has the ability to heal so much divisiveness that we have in the world. If we can feel joy for other people's joy, in addition to feeling empathy for other people's suffering or challenges, but feeling excited for other people's joy, it feels to me like it will create more joy in the world.

Dr. Marie Thouin: 46:22

Yeah, yeah, I think again, sometimes you might not even need to feel the joy to support the person, like to have either the empathic joy for somebody or to really be unconditionally supportive of somebody else's wellbeing and success. It is, to me, about healing our relationships and really looking at what parts of us are standing in the way of that, and that can be a really great flashlight to illuminate where we are at and what are the insecurities and fears that might be coming in the way of that, and it's a really great litmus test.

Carrie Jeroslow: 47:05

And you work with clients, so you work with clients to help them go through this process. Can you talk a little bit more about the work that you do?

Dr. Marie Thouin: 47:14

Absolutely so. I work with people, and sometimes couples, on every aspect of their relationships or dating. So I work with folks who are single and dating, people who are in relationship, people who are opening their relationship to non-monogamy, and we really look at what are the bottlenecks that are causing you to stop your love and stop your expansion in your love life. And it looks very different for different people. For some people it is their personal insecurities that need to be healed and voiced and taken care of, and some people have relational insecurities that we work with. So, just to end the process of identifying, where do you need attention, where do you need healing, where do you need more softness and that is so empowering and I have actually on my website for those who are interested in compersion, I have developed a worksheet where people can look at their whole compersion ecosystem and identify how they're doing in different categories, and that can help with the coaching, because we know like oh, here you're really strong in the individual category, but you don't have any community around you.

Dr. Marie Thouin: 48:34

Let's strategize about how do you find community and how do you interact with people, all of that or some people are really needing more reassurance from their partners, and okay, how do you strategize for that? So we really go where the bottlenecks are.

Carrie Jeroslow: 48:54

That is incredible work and I really encourage anyone who's listening, who is struggling with compersion, because there's also a lot out there that says you can't be non-monogamous unless you have compersion and all of that. There's just a lot of stuff, and I will say Marie is the real deal. She is an incredible coach and we're gonna have all of your information in the show notes of how to reach out to you for coaching and also how to get that roadmap and follow you on social media, because you have so many amazing free resources on your Instagram page, and then really encourage you to go out and buy this book. June 18th it's coming out. I've got my copy already ordered. How can people find the book? Where is it being sold?

Dr. Marie Thouin: 49:48

It's being sold on Roman and Littlefield. That's the publisher's website. You can buy it on Amazon, barnes and Nobles or wherever books are sold.

Carrie Jeroslow: 49:58

And we're going to have some of the links down in the show notes so you can just go and click on it, because I've already read the book and it is an incredible book, such a resource and also, although it is academic, I felt like I came away with it with tangible understandings of where my struggles are in terms of compersion, so it really helped me look at my own relationships, so I highly recommend that. Well, it's been a year, marie, and here we have had an update. Where do you think one year from now, if you were to just have your dreams come true? Where would you be one year from now when we come back for the third time on June 8th 2025?

Dr. Marie Thouin: 50:45

There's so many possibilities, but I would love to be writing my second book by then. I really want to write a book that's going to be less academic, more accessible to a larger audience. I think I want to dive into that wider lens towards conversion.

Carrie Jeroslow: 51:05

That's amazing and your coaching, I bet, really helps to refine that, as you're working with people with real life experiences to help people do their work and do the work.

Dr. Marie Thouin: 51:18

Yes, it's very symbiotic. Do their work and do the work.

Carrie Jeroslow: 51:20

Yes, it's very symbiotic, awesome. Well, marie, thank you so much, my friend, for being back. This has just been an incredibly informative conversation. I have learned so much, and everyone, please go connect with Marie. Thank you, marie, and we wish you the best of luck and so much love. Thanks, so much love. You are sent right to you. If you liked what you heard, please subscribe to the podcast. You being here and participating in the conversation about relationship diversity is what helps us create a space of inclusivity and acceptance together. The more comfortable and normal it is to acknowledge the vast and varied relating we all do, the faster we'll shift to a paradigm of conscious, intentional and diverse relationships. New episodes are released every Thursday. Stay connected with me through my YouTube channel, where I'll give you even more free resources and information, all about relationship diversity. I'm super excited to go deeper into YouTube because I'll be able to connect and have conversations directly with you. You'll find the link in the show notes. Stay curious. Every relationship is as unique as you are.