Is Polyamory an Identity or a Lifestyle Choice? With Rich and Siobhan of The Poly (Pod) Cast

Episode 108:

Is Polyamory an Identity or a Lifestyle Choice? With Rich and Siobhan of The Poly (Pod) Cast

In this episode of the Relationship Diversity Podcast, I have an inspiring conversation with Rich and Siobhan, the hosts of The Poly (Pod) Cast, to talk about some big discussions present in non-monogamous communities. 

We discuss the significant topic of whether non-monogamy and polyamory are lifestyle choices or identities and tackle common myths and judgments surrounding polyamorous relationships. 

Rich and Siobhan share their personal journey from monogamy to polyamory, highlight challenges they’ve faced and provide insights on handling societal misconceptions. 

Rich and Siobhan aim to normalize diverse relationship structures and dismantle the stigma around polyamory and bisexuality.

Connect with Rich and Siobhan:

Website | Instagram | TikTok | YouTube | Podcast

Email Rich and Siobhan: podcastthepoly@gmail.com

00:00 Debunking Non-Monogamy Myths

01:28 Meet Rich and Siobhan from the Polly Podcast

02:40 The Journey to Non-Monogamy

04:19 Navigating the Transition

06:47 The Emotional Impact of Coming Out

08:22 Exploring Identity and Choice

14:06 Personal Growth Through Non-Monogamy

25:14 Debunking Common Myths and Judgments

29:06 Navigating Monogamous Mindsets

32:12 The End Goal of Non-Monogamous Dating

34:43 Handling Judgments and Microaggressions

40:19 Hypersexualization and Stereotypes

45:17 Re-Education and Normalization

51:08 Promoting Relationship Diversity

51:50 About The Polly Podcast

This is Relationships Reimagined.

Join the conversation as we dive into a new paradigm of conscious, intentional and diverse relationships.

 ✴️ ✴️ ✴️ ✴️ ✴️ ✴️

Get Your Free Relationship Diversity Guide

Connect with me:
YouTube

Instagram

Website

Get my book, “Why Do They Always Break Up with Me? The Ultimate Guide to Overcome Heartbreak for Good

Podcast Music by Zachariah Hickman

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Non-monogamous people don't have a club that we go to once a month and the person that gets the most conversions gets a cash prize or something. We don't care if you're monogamous or non-monogamous. We're not out in the world trying to convert you. I'm not trying to tell you that you're doing something bad. I'm not telling you that my relationship is superior to yours. I'm just sharing with you the connection. Most likely, you've asked me a question, so I'm answering it.

Speaker 2: 0:29

Welcome to the Relationship Diversity Podcast, where we celebrate, question and explore all aspects of relationship structure diversity, from solaramory to monogamy to polyamory and everything in between, because every relationship is as unique as you are. We'll bust through societal programming to break open and dissect everything we thought we knew about relationships, to ask the challenging but transformational questions who am I and what do I really want in my relationships? I'm your guide, keri Jaroslow, bestselling author, speaker, intuitive and coach. Join me as we reimagine all that our most intimate relationships can become. Today's episode is part of our conversation series. I'm just one voice in this relationship diversity movement and it's important to bring more unique perspectives into the conversation.

Speaker 2: 1:28

Today I'm talking with Rich and Siobhan from the Polly podcast, where we talk about a discussion that's been very present in the non-monogamous communities, which is is non-monogamy polyamory a choice or an identity? We also discuss common myths and judgments they've come across involving the intersection of their gender, sexual and relationship orientation and the ways they've responded to them. But first here's a little bit about them. Rich and Siobhan are the hosts of the Poly podcast and are in a polyamorous relationship. Rich is polyamorous by orientation. Siobhan is polyamorous by lifestyle. On their podcast, they interview leading experts and ENM folks about their relationships, research and experiences to contribute to the growing conversation around non-monogamy. Siobhan is a journalist and writer originally from Sydney, australia. Richard, born in the UK, is a professional photographer and works in the travel industry. They live together in London. Let's get into the conversation.

Speaker 2: 2:43

Hello everyone and welcome to this episode of Relationship Diversity Podcast. I am so excited about my guests today. I have Siobhan and Rich from the Polly Podcast with me today. If you haven't listened to their podcast, I'm going to have a link in the show notes so you can go right to it, because it's an amazing podcast where they share their stories about coming into polyamory and building community and talking to experts. It is such a great resource and I'm so excited to have them here today because we're going to talk. We have a lot of things we want to kind of weave in and out, so get ready for this journey. We're about to go on and, rich and Siobhan, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for being here.

Speaker 3: 3:32

Hello, it's our pleasure.

Speaker 1: 3:33

Hi Thank you for having us.

Speaker 3: 3:35

Thank you for having us.

Speaker 1: 3:35

yeah, we are excited about all of the things that we have planned to talk about, so it's going to be a wild 45 minutes, I think, so it's going to be a wild 45 minutes, I think I know.

Speaker 2: 3:45

Let's go, let's go. So, before we get into all the things that we want to talk about, for anyone who does not know who you are and what you do, please introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about yourselves.

Speaker 3: 3:58

Who's going first? I'll go.

Speaker 1: 4:00

So, as you mentioned, we are the hosts of the Polly Podcast. It is a show about life and love in polyamory. We came to doing this podcast just over a year ago because we wanted to add to the growing discourse around non-monogamous relationships. When our relationship started and I'll let Rich get into a little bit about how we came to be non-monogamous, but when we started dating just under four years ago, we were completely monogamous. I was very openly against being anything other than monogamous. I still struggle with that word.

Speaker 2: 4:39

Doesn't matter how many times you say that word.

Speaker 1: 4:41

And we have been through a transition in our relationship and during that transition we came to realize that there is really space for more and more people like your podcast and other podcasts, other books, resources to add to the growing discussion. There are so many resources that are based on mononormative and monogamous relationships and we wanted to be part of the growing conversation around other relationships and also to be able to share a little bit of our story and create community about how you can really go from one relationship type to another and how that is a journey and a flow that may happen multiple times over our lives and the lives of our listeners. Do you want to tell people about how we came to be on the block.

Speaker 3: 5:31

This all really started back in what year was it? 2021. 2021. Oh, age ago. So we met in between lockdowns. We were together for a year monogamously. We were together for a year monogamously and for the longest time I felt like maybe there was something missing, something. I didn't quite know about myself yet. And then I just started having those conversations about this thing called polyamory or non-monogamy, or ENM and CNM and there's all these acronyms, and this was university. The more I spoke about it with friends, the more I was like I think this is that missing part of me. The gap started to be filled in and then I came to Siobhan with this one day, somewhat sheepishly, I think she was just an understatement.

Speaker 1: 6:17

You were terrified.

Speaker 3: 6:19

Yes, I was. It was the most terrifying thing I've ever had to do, and I'd actually been trying to hold it off for a while, but I just couldn't anymore and it came flooding out of me, didn't it? And yeah, it was really really hard. Really it was honestly. I've had to do some pretty rough things in my life, but bringing that to siobhan was definitely and by that you mean telling me that you're polyamorous by orientation?

Speaker 3: 6:45

yes, exactly yeah and this is one of the sort of interesting things rather about our dynamic is that for me, this is very much part of who I am. It's my orientation, if you will. So I'm polyamorous by orientation, but for siobhan it's not necessarily the case. It it's more of a choice.

Speaker 2: 7:04

I love that conversation. It is happening all in the E&M non-monogamous community of is it a choice, is it an identity? And you are beautifully illustrating that it is dependent on who the person is, that there is no one right answer for that, and so I'm curious more if you would be open to talking about post the moment, rich, that you came and said I think I'm polyamorous by identity and we have been in a monogamous relationship, and I want to talk about a potential other dynamic. So what happened post that moment? Because I think a lot of people yes, that moment is very scary for a lot of people. I have a lot of episodes about how to transition from one structure to another, and that moment is a lot, and there's also the after moments and all that that is. And for many, I think, who are doing it in a way that is sustainable, it is a long process. It's not just okay, this is who I am, okay, great, let's just go do it. So can you talk a little bit more about that time?

Speaker 3: 8:22

Yeah, I think one thing that's really important to remember right off the bat is that after this initial conversation, we didn't have the vocabulary. Polyamory was a very new word in my world and navigating something like this without that vocabulary and people can say, oh, words are just words, but words are incredibly powerful and empowering in helping you navigate the world something new and in this case, certainly navigating non-monogamy. But we didn't have any of that. So the first step really for us was to arm ourselves, if you will, for lack of a better term, or equip ourselves there is a better term equip ourselves with those tools which were the words and the concepts and really starting to understand them, and we did that through literature really.

Speaker 1: 9:09

And I think as well. For me, one of the key things was I could see in Richard a genuine change in that. He seemed to me incredibly relieved that he had been able to say this. Of course, there was some anxiety around the outcome, because he didn't want to break up, but I think separate to that. There was also this sense of relief that I could see, because imagine having to come to someone that you live with, that you parent with, and say, hey, there's a thing about me that might jeopardize our relationship. And say, hey, there's a thing about me that might jeopardize our relationship. How incredibly painful to have to open yourself up to someone who you don't want to lose, but know that there's a thing about me and something that you need to do to honor me that I know might not be possible, so it's a really difficult thing to do. So from my side, I could see that. I could see that this was genuine, that Richard was sharing with me part of him that he'd never shared with anyone else before. I could feel, in the early days as well, a shift in our relationship, the depth of our connection. This is where it is a little bit different from other forms of coming out is that if you already partnered, you need to have a partner who's willing to make that change too. It's not just something within yourself.

Speaker 1: 10:25

So I had to find out a way. First of all, was this a lifestyle decision for me? Was it something I could get on board with, or was I just not wired for this? Am I wired monogamous? I had to work that out, while also trying to find a way to honor this part of this person's identity who I love and care about so deeply.

Speaker 1: 10:47

So there was a lot of that and it was a really challenging time. As Richard mentioned all of the vocabulary, the reading that we did together separately, the hours and hours and hours of discussions, of writing down our relationship agreements all the things that I'm sure you've talked about a lot on your show because I wanted to find a way through this, and so I wanted to do all the things that I knew how to do to problem solve. But as we went along, I also was like I might also decide or discover that this, I can't do this. So that was quite challenging, and the way I managed that was deciding to not make a decision. I didn't rush to make a choice because there was a lot at stake and three years I'm still here, so I guess I'm okay.

Speaker 1: 11:33

But when you don't have the vocabulary or even just the social structure of oh, when this thing happens and you do this, I had nobody to ask that had been through something similar in my personal life, so it was really, really hard, and I don't want to gloss over the fact that these transitions aren't incredibly challenging for people. I will often describe it, and Richard agrees with this. We went through a breakup. Our monogamous relationship was over. We had to start a new relationship, and Esther Perel, who people will know, says that we will all have many relationships in our lives, but for some of us, those relationships will be with the same person, and we had the death of our first relationship in that moment, and so we also both went through a breakup. It just so happens that we were still together building a new relationship, which is incredibly confusing.

Speaker 3: 12:34

Yeah, and the sort of, I guess, growing pains. If you will, in that moment did feel a little bit like the pain that you feel in a breakup yes, for me absolutely do.

Speaker 1: 12:44

I was like, oh, I'd felt, I felt this before and this is a loss of a relationship that I cared so deeply about and worked so hard to build. It doesn't mean that you don't gain things from that. We certainly have, personally and as a couple, no pain, no gain, but honestly it was, it was like a breakup.

Speaker 2: 13:04

I love the way you say that because there's something empowering in that. Because I think when people take the relationship and then try to build it into something else without the breakdown phase, there's a lot more disappointments phase. There's a lot more disappointments instead of a grief of the way this relationship has been. A monogamous relationship is done, is over. For this moment, even if we decide five years, 10 years from now, to be monogamous for any amount of time, it's still a different kind of monogamy. It's intentional monogamy and so saying that is over and we are breaking up with that, it is painful, there's grieving, but then there's the ability to build up something anew and something that is going to be built with a stronger foundation, and so that feels empowering to me. Not easy, but empowering.

Speaker 1: 14:04

Yes, I completely agree with that. I do think it was, even in the most painful moments, empowering and something for me that has been really quite empowering in this whole journey. A lot of people say to us oh, how did you do that? And even to this day, sometimes we do find there are residue of our monogamous relationship. We live together, so that's one of the things that there are some residual things that I think are always going to be there.

Speaker 1: 14:27

But people often say how did you do it? And it's hard to say, well, you can't. Really, it's a whole new world. It's a whole brand new foundation, and not only are you encouraged to, but to survive you actually have to design your own relationship. There is no other option. You have to redefine concepts that everyone wrongly so assumes and takes for granted. For example and when I explain this to people who are monogamous redefining what cheating looks like is something that really cuts through and people seem to understand, because you have to, and that's also a great example of often that definition that is so assumed. So that is something you can no longer assume, that and anything else that you're used to, the comfort and the assumption of this monogamy band-aid. You've got to rip it off and you have to design your own relationship.

Speaker 2: 15:23

Which is why I love relationship diversity, because you get to say you're Siobhan, you're rich, there's no other two people like you. How are you going to design what works for you? And there is so much of that monogamous mindset that is baked in there and still for me four years in this chapter. That's not even talking about the first chapter, which was 20 years ago, of how much like oh, my God right, oh shoot, I didn't even realize that's still there, and it is a continual journey inward of all the beliefs and thoughts that I've assumed and taken over by default. So it's a big breakdown of not just the relationship, but of also who you are. I want to ask you, Rich, because I'm really curious for people out there who are wondering hmm, I wonder if the missing link, the gap in my identity, might be poly or non-monogamy or queer?

Speaker 3: 16:26

What was it inside of you If you could put to words what you felt about when you heard polyamorous that word or you heard non-monogamous, that felt like oh, that really resonates with me it's a really difficult one to describe, but if I could make a comparison, to imagine being a, a bisexual person or a gay person who has never been given that option before and one day someone comes to them and says you don't just have to be with the opposite sex, you can also fall in love with people of the same sex or both. You can imagine the relief that person would feel when in being told that that is a legitimate option and that is okay. There's a bit of that, but it's also scary because you don't know how to move forward with that without any anyone holding your hand, figuratively speaking. It is very difficult to explain and I imagine it's different for everybody, but for me there was certainly a relief, like a relief and a release.

Speaker 3: 17:31

Like I say it was, it's like having that sort of internal hole filling up, and that's the best way I can describe it. Maybe a better example is like the last jigsaw piece has finally fallen into place, it's finally gone in to place and that's satisfying. When you put a puzzle piece in the right place, it's very satisfying, right? But then of course, that was immediately followed by okay. So how am I gonna talk to siobhan about this?

Speaker 2: 17:57

yeah, it sounds like there's a whole body, almost indescribable feeling, the relief I hear you say that word and a rightness of oh, wow, that feels true. And, yes, all the other stuff that follows, all the things that want to talk you out of it. But that moment where I think a lot of people in alternative lifestyles have of oh whoa, I didn't even know that this was possible. So I love how you put that, because for me, I think non-monogamy is a choice. I think I could make either work.

Speaker 2: 18:35

I just happened to meet someone that I fell for, and I also still love my husband, so that was the circumstance, and I think going into the idea that I didn't have to choose one or the other was empowering for me. And so, siobhan, how do you fall into the choice part? And so, siobhan, how do you fall into the choice part? I know that it was someone that you love coming to you and saying this is who I am and you having to make the decision Am I going to do this or am I not Anything more that you can share from your experience?

Speaker 1: 19:10

Yes, of course. So I'm always trying to be open-minded, and especially back then, and I think everyone's always working on this, but I like to think of myself as somebody who meets people where they are and is open-minded about however people are living their lives. This was the first time that I had to maybe live my life that way too, because it was someone that I wanted to be in a relationship with. It was someone that I wanted to be in a relationship with. So if you had to put a word to it, it's ambiamorous, not fixed. Happy with poly, happy with monogamy could choose.

Speaker 1: 19:45

A lot of people always ask me if I wasn't with Richard anymore, would I go back to monogamy? The answer is I don't know, because for me it's very based on the person that I'm with and I could go back to monogamy, but it would be a very different, more intentional type of monogamy, similar to how you mentioned earlier. So the reason I'm glad that I have been non-monogamous is and I've said this a lot people don't expect you to say that your non-monogamy journey has been largely personal, but for me it has been, and non-monogamy opened up a lot of growth opportunities for me personally when I realized that my insecurities were the same in my polyamorous relationship with Richard and all of the monogamous relationships I'd had previously, I went oh, I'm the problem, it's me yes.

Speaker 2: 20:37

Hello, I was like oh, hang the problem it's me, yes, hello.

Speaker 1: 20:39

I was like, oh, hang on, it's me, I'm the problem.

Speaker 1: 20:44

So that is when I realized, oh, hang on, it's not based on what relationship orientation I have, it's based on me carrying the same insecurities through all of my relationships.

Speaker 1: 20:58

And a large degree of sadness that I experienced when Rich and I were going through our transition, through our monogamy breakup, if you will, was realizing that I had been torturing myself and carrying with me a lot of unhelpful and painful coping mechanisms and that I needed to work on those. And up until this point I had just been using monogamy. I call it the monogamy band-aid. I had been using that to cover up and stitch up all of these things that I was feeling and the inadequacies I was feeling from within. So that was a real turning point for me, and so I don't feel like non-monogamy or polyamory is an orientation for me, and I don't really know. I just know that it isn't sometimes. And it's very similar to how I experienced my bisexuality, which also came out around the same time as the polyamory, because I was in a safe relationship where we could both explore parallelly, concurrently, mightallel I was in a relationship that was safe.

Speaker 1: 21:58

And so I feel sometimes like super lesbian or super straight or in the middle, and it's very fluid for me and I do experience non-monogamy. The same. Sometimes all I want to do is date other people and sometimes I'm like no.

Speaker 1: 22:10

I don't fancy it, but having that freedom is so fundamental and that really speaks to me is not feeling like I'm losing any sense of individuality. I am who I am and I'm allowed to have a full expression. So that's where it's been really powerful to me and that is part of that choice and that lifestyle choice that I have that sort of fades into that.

Speaker 2: 22:32

Yeah, the exploration of identity and then the self-growth. I agree with you on that. I really have grown so much and I think people have a false safety in monogamy that I hear talked about a lot of. Oh, because we are in a monogamous relationship, I'm safe and we're together. I read a statistic a while ago that said there's like 65% of relationships are non-monogamous, but there's the huge percentage of them that are unethically non-monogamous, and my parents went through this. My father had an affair and I often wonder what would it have been like if this was even an option, if this was even on the table, because my dad has been married to that woman who's my stepmother for I don't know, 35, 40 years, so clearly there was something there. What would that have been like? And introducing that kind of option to people who feel that this is a choice, this is a lifestyle choice, could be really eye-opening. And you both have talked about how, siobhan, you were saying the bisexual, polyamorous, that's choice. Rich, you've talked about identity as a bisexual, polyamorous male. Is that correct?

Speaker 3: 23:47

Correct, yes.

Speaker 1: 23:48

I will also say that my bisexuality is not a choice, but the polyamory is. So I do identify as bisexual, but I am that way.

Speaker 3: 23:56

So I think of myself as queer because I'm bisexual, but not because I'm polyamorous, whereas I would draw a venn diagram that puts for me the polyamory and the bisexuality in my queer category. And this is where it's really interesting, because you can have a spectrum of spectrums exactly spectrums, on a spec in the spectrum itself.

Speaker 3: 24:18

You can have those things on one side that are very much a choice so our lifestyle choices, our hobbies and then on the other end of the not a choice spectrum you have our sexuality, and then somewhere in the middle you have polyamory, where for some people it's a choice and for other people it's very much not a choice. So there's a spectrum of polyamory itself, if that makes sense. I know it's maybe a slightly clunky kind of tool to use, but we're also trying to put words to something that words just can't touch so that's where the spectrum is is it's just in this beautiful colorful range of all the colors all

Speaker 3: 25:01

the colors of the rainbow the universe, and sometimes universe is scary and that's why some people struggle to understand it, you know yeah, and we're trying to put words to this in the best way that we can.

Speaker 2: 25:13

Yeah, I wanted to go into some of the myths and judgments that both of you have faced in this journey that you've had, and I'd love to hear and debunk some of them, because I know one of the big myths that I hear all the time is people in polyamorous relationships can't commit and they just want to have their cake and eat it too. And I even heard someone say well, in a monogamous relationship, you're forced to really look at your stuff and work on your stuff, and with non-monogamy you can just go. If it doesn't work, go to another relationship. It's just mind boggling, but these are things that people really believe. So I'd love for you to talk about it from your perspective and let's debunk some of those myths.

Speaker 3: 25:58

That's you to talk about it from your perspective, and let's debunk some of those myths. That's a really good one. To start with actually is the commitment stuff, because I actually had this at work and I was talking to a colleague about it. Because I'm pretty open about this, my whole philosophy is that in order to normalize something, you just need to treat it like it's normal. You just need to speak about it frankly.

Speaker 3: 26:12

If it's safe to do if it's safe to do so, of course, yes, I understand that is a privileged thing that I can do. But this person. When I mentioned this, they alluded to me not being committed and honestly, I don't even think this person was being intentionally hostile or anything. People do display these microaggressions and they a lot of the time come from ingrained conditioning around relationships that we were all subject to growing up and I didn't think, oh God's sake, this person's an idiot or not very nice or whatever. I just corrected them. I said just because I have relationships with other people doesn't mean that I'm not committed. I'm getting married to this person. If that's not showing commitment, then I don't know what is. So that's a really big one. I think some people are like I couldn't do that because I'm just too committed to my partner, and it's like you're implying that I'm not committed.

Speaker 2: 27:04

Right.

Speaker 3: 27:05

That's a huge misconception. For some reason, just because you're with one person and then seeing other people, that doesn't devalue any of the relationships that you have.

Speaker 1: 27:17

One of our guests, nicole Payson, actually described polyamory as the commitment Olympics, and the reason that I love that so much is that to fully understand it and to fully practice it properly, you do have to separate the idea of one committed romantic relationship and the rest don't really count when with non-monogamy, because we don't have to choose. Imagine having a committed relationship like Richard and I, but times two or times three, and that's actually a lot of work and people say a lot oh, how did you make that work? How do you have time for all those things? And the answer is you've got to make sacrifice. If you want relationships, you've got to fit it in, you've got to make sacrifices, you have to communicate, and that's a real show of commitment, in my opinion. So it is the commitment Olympics, and when you explain it to someone like Richard has, it does make sense. It's just not necessarily something that you hear a lot of. I think as well. One of the other classics that I've actually get a lot is the age old. Oh, that sounds great, Good for you, but what happens if you or Richard find someone that they like better than you? Right, and it's taken a little while to work out how to answer these questions.

Speaker 1: 28:33

But now that I've got my little set answers, I quite enjoy answering this one where you just look at them and say, oh well, first of all, that could happen in monogamy. And they're like oh, that's true. So I said that's not specific to non-monogamy, that could happen in any relationship. And I said, but also, we don't have to choose, and those two things, I think, really land quite well.

Speaker 1: 28:54

And I think what both of these examples the misconceptions that we hear and the questions that you get whether it's by someone being a bit microaggressive or genuinely thinking out loud to you is that it's all framed within a monogamous mindset. Of course it is. We can't separate ourselves from culture. We've been brought up in these cultures, so of course, people are going to ask those questions from a foundation of monogamy and it's about trying to find that balance between being truthful and honest about what's going on and answering that question in a way that you feel like you're understood and that they're getting that understanding, but also linking it to something that they might understand like a monogamous framework about oh, we'd have to choose. And that also does happen in your relationship style too, so that's one that we get a lot.

Speaker 3: 29:41

Can I actually add a little bit to that as well, I think, when we're talking about it being this idea that they might find someone else that they like, quote unquote more. First of all, yes, that does happen in monogamy too, and it's actually in monogamy that is a threat to the relationship. In non-monogamy it's not because you can obviously have both. You don't have to choose. But additionally, I resent the framing of liking more, because I don't think it's a case of more. It's a case of differently, and sometimes that can be perceived as more because it's new. So there's the initial excitement that everyone gets from a new relationship, but it doesn't mean more At the end of the day. It all comes from that excitement, it all comes from that, and initially you're laying groundwork, building a foundation, if you will, and that can take a bit more attention or a bit more time at first, but it doesn't mean more, it just means different that's my feeling about it and knowing people say more, it's like well, I'm not going to like someone more immediately, am I?

Speaker 3: 30:52

I don't have any history with that person, so how am I going to like them more?

Speaker 2: 30:56

Well, that is another thing of people doing their own inner work, because it's very easy to get swept away with NRE or new relationship energy and to understand that, yes, but that's not the relationship like you have with Siobhan. You have built four years together, four or five years together, so you have a foundation. It's not comparable.

Speaker 1: 31:22

It doesn't need to be either, does it? It doesn't need to be compared either, and that's cool and fun, and on at the point.

Speaker 3: 31:28

Exactly.

Speaker 2: 31:28

Yes, because I love what I'm doing with my husband. I want to be doing that raising a family that is the choice and the priority that we have. And when I go with my other partner, I want to be doing that raising a family that is the choice and the priority that we have. And when I go with my other partner, I want to just be me and have time. As a 54-year-old woman who's like I, have my needs too, and we put ourselves in a bubble and have a really nourishing time together, and they're different, but they also each fill important parts of myself and important aspects that I need filled, that I work on filling on my own, but also the time and the connection with both of them fill really important aspects of who I am and what I want and need.

Speaker 1: 32:12

What you're saying there really reminds me of another classic that we get asked a lot is well, what is the end goal of your dating? And I think you've just done a really great job there of describing why it is that you might actually want to date and have other relationships, but people often say, yeah, what is the end goal If you're already getting married or you already are married? You've ticked all the boxes. You should be happy now because you've completed the escalator. Congratulations.

Speaker 1: 32:41

And something that I found really helpful when I'm trying to describe this to people is likening it to the friendship model that we have. So if you're on a dating app or you meet someone in the world and they say they have one friend, find me someone who doesn't think that's a red flag. If I went and said to my girlfriend, oh, I've met this guy, but he's only got one friend, they'd be like that is weird. That is a universal. People talk about it all the time on monogamous podcasts, articles, whatever. Oh, they should have friends. So why do we have friends? Well, we want to build community. We want to do interest-based activities with them. We want to connect with them on stuff that is just for us. We want to have people to talk to, emotional support, all these things that are so obvious when you're making friends.

Speaker 1: 33:29

Also, no one ever says oh hey, I've met a new friend. Oh well, what's the end goal with this friend of yours? Huh, why do you have an extra friend in your life? That's weird. And likening a non-monogamous experience and answering that question of what's your end goal, if you liken it to a model that we all already practice having friends and other family members and maybe more than one child, for example makes sense to people. The only difference is that we don't have to limit that friendship to hanging out platonically. We can have romantic friends, we can kiss, we can have sex, we can cuddle. There aren't limitations on really letting that relationship be authentic, and I find that's a really great way of answering that question, which honestly stumped me for a long time. People say what's the end goal? I'm like I don't actually know yeah, and with the programming why does that need an answer?

Speaker 1: 34:24

it's the programming.

Speaker 2: 34:25

you're right, yeah, the programming of the, the move from platonic to romantic and what that even means, or platonic to intimate. It's that bridge that makes it wrong in people with a monogamous mindset. That's where it makes it bad or wrong. And again, it's unpacking all of those beliefs and all of that programming that we have seen since the moment we came out of our mothers. And another one that I've heard is this is a judgment is I could never do that. They don't say the next sentence, which is I could never do that, and so I don't know how you could, or I don't know how anyone could, or then that makes that wrong.

Speaker 2: 35:10

And I had a conversation with someone who said but I could never do that. I'm so happy with my husband. And I looked at her and I said I'm not saying that you should. Yeah, I'm not saying that you should. I'm just saying that what I'm doing is right for me, what you're doing is right for you. More power to you with that. But it's that judgment of I could never do it, so you shouldn't be able to. It's wrong. Have you ever gotten that one?

Speaker 3: 35:37

oh, all the time. Yes, depending on how they say it or what my interactions with them have been like already, sometimes just to mess with them, I'll be like that's what my partner said. If they're being a bit judgy, I'll be like okay, well, that means that you're just bad at relationships then, aren't you? You're just really insecure, aren't you? Because that prompts them to look internally a little bit and be like well, what's the difference between me and them? It's like you really don't even need to answer that question, because one you don't even know my partner and you're a completely different person. Yeah, you are your own person, but if anything prompts someone to be a bit introspective, then I think that's always a good thing, agreed, even if it is a little bit mean.

Speaker 1: 36:18

I do often say to people yeah, same, I was like that. Yeah, and people do get a bit, oh okay, well, how did you handle it? And I've got all range of responses that people are just like they do put you down or they're genuinely curious. We had Jessica Fern on our show last year and we asked her about how to handle some of these microaggressions and her answer was probably one of my favorite answers. We said I could never do that and she said just meet them with curiosity, put it back on them. So her response was literally why?

Speaker 1: 36:49

What a game changer. Because all of a sudden they're the one explaining to you, when so often people in non-monogamous relationships feel like they have this burden of explaining themselves constantly and doing the education piece constantly, and sometimes you just don't fancy it. So if you're saying to someone, oh, I could never do that, oh why? That puts them on the spot a little bit more and also helps you if you're having a moment where you're like, oh, because the thing is we all know why we're doing this, and so putting that back onto them, as you said, that introspection, looking a little bit at yourself, we've had to do it. They can do it too.

Speaker 1: 37:26

And I do say this to people sometimes as well, if it's a bit more joking like, look, non-monogamous people don't have a club that we go to once a month and the person that gets the most conversions gets a cash prize or something. We don't care if you're monogamous or non-monogamous. We're not out in the world trying to convert you. I'm not trying to tell you that you're doing something bad. I'm not telling you that my relationship is superior to yours. I'm just sharing with you for connection. Most likely you've asked me a question, so I'm answering it. So it is also, when you do come across people who may be thinking that you're doing those kinds of things, is keep yourself a little bit safe. Do the Jessica Fern curiosity and leave it at that, because most of the time and I certainly have you leave these interactions feeling a bit shit. You haven't got the connection that you were looking for, which is why we were all sharing in the first place, and it can be isolating.

Speaker 3: 38:20

That question is probably one of my least favorite ones another great thing is if they can answer the why, they normally answer it with something else that you can also say but why do you feel that way? And then you can keep going and going and going until you reach that source. And then you go okay, well, don't you think you should work on that? Honestly, not always, because some people are just wild monogamously. But if they're saying, oh, you know, I'd just be too jealous, okay, why I'm like? Oh, because I need to know that. My, okay, but why?

Speaker 1: 38:49

do you know what I mean, like you, really can't.

Speaker 3: 38:51

yeah, it is a bit, but also you might end up helping someone work through whether they end up questioning monogamy, which isn't the end goal. We're not here to convert people. We're not a cult, but at the end of the day, that's not what we're trying to do. But if someone does have and a lot of us do, including polyamorous people, have insecurities around jealousy around their relationships or whatever, it's helpful to trace that thread back to its source, because a lot of people don't do that. A lot of people don't think about it because it's scary. It's really scary and there's a lot of shame attached to it, which is the worst. Well, it's not the worst emotion ever, but the perception is that it's the worst emotion ever.

Speaker 2: 39:29

So yeah, it definitely well shame definitely keeps people.

Speaker 3: 39:32

Be a three-year-old, be a three-year-old, yeah, be a three-year-old. I've had one of those. Why?

Speaker 2: 39:37

Why, why, why, why? Because I said so. No, but I love what you said about and I think this is really important. No one that I know of who's doing non-monogamy for their own self-fulfillment is trying to convert anyone into it, unlike some other things in the States that people are trying to convert anyone into it, unlike some other things in the States that people are trying to convert. That's the energy that, at least in the States, is this.

Speaker 2: 40:03

There is something and I'm not going to name it here, but you know, if you know, that people are trying to convert us to a certain way of being, but for non-monogamous, it's really an expression of our truth, of what we feel our truth to be. And so I want to now go to an intersection of orientation, of identity and choice in the way that you see it as poly and bisexual. And then, siobhan, you have poly bisexual woman, which has its own set of judgments and stigmatization, and then, rich, you have the poly bisexual man, which has its own set. So can you both talk about those intersections that you deal with in terms of judgments or stigmatizations? I'll start.

Speaker 1: 40:54

I often refer to myself as a hypersexualized triple whammy because of those three identities that you have outlined there. I think that is because each of those three things comes with some sort of social expectation stereotype, essentially that my body is available for the gratification of mostly straight men. So it is challenging because when people read something about you or find out that these are your identities, they do jump quite directly to those things and they assume that you are happy to have no strings attached sex. They assume that you are available for threesomes. Often I get asked I'm not against it, obviously, but it's just this assumption that I want to be someone's unicorn and all these assumptions that you get and I get often particularly by men, straight men whizzed about how many threesomes I've had, how many women I've slept with, am I allowed to play by myself? And then if I answer them, then they get quizzed on why I haven't done more of all these things. So I'm being pushed into this box and the genuine surprise that I experienced when I say to people we opened a relationship coming up on three years ago and I have slept with three people outside our relationship, it's a genuine surprise to people. And so whenever I'm answering those questions and those misconceptions that we touched on there earlier.

Speaker 1: 42:24

They're always informed by these identities that I carry, and something that I do struggle with is often I find myself telling people both of us I can speak for both of us in this case telling people that, oh well, polyamory is not just all about the sex, it's about other things too.

Speaker 1: 42:40

But then, at the same time, I do feel like I'm betraying the sex positive side of non-monogamy, which it is a sex positive community which is so important. We've got the swingers, we've got people who are kingsters that are such important, fundamental parts of our community, and so to say, it's not all about the sex. So what if it is who cares? And so I do feel having to try and fight against the hypersexualization. It's a fine line between protecting myself and setting the record straight and shutting down that and speaking against what is ultimately a sex positive movement. So that's a real challenge, and I don't know whether I do it perfectly all the time, but I certainly try to balance all of this out. So it's an ongoing journey, it's an ongoing space I'm learning in. I know, rich, you've got some different experiences as a male presenting person.

Speaker 3: 43:32

Yeah. So I think there's still hyper-sexualization going on, but it takes a slightly different form, because there is no faster way to make people think that you are a sleazy male that just wants to bang everything than to tell them that you are a polyamorous bisexual, because instantly their mind just goes to sex, even when people say things like oh so, okay, so you're polyamorous, okay, so does that mean that you have a partner, but you can have sex. Even when people say things like oh so, okay, so you're probably okay. So does that mean that you have a partner but you can have sex with other people? And it's like why is the sex the first thing that you go to? And once again, I'm not blaming anyone for going down that route, because we live in a hyper-sexualized society and that is where a lot of people's heads go. But it still doesn't mean it's not incredibly frustrating and can be a bit grating.

Speaker 1: 44:16

And we both have just touched on the fact that there is this expectation that we're just going to want to have heaps of sex, and I think that for women on my side it's more.

Speaker 1: 44:28

I have to convince you, and obviously I'm talking about a very sort of heterosexual lens here, where the men have to convince me to have sex with them and they just want to get what they can. It's going to be an easy way to have sex where on rich's side being male presenting, there is an assumption that all men want to do is have sex so it does work both ways. Where rich is also trying to form meaningful relationships and being like I'm not, I'm gonna just want to get in your pants. I, I want to have relationships. And he will also experience that surprise of oh, hang on, you're a human being and you would date intentionally and that you want to get to know someone and that actually sex isn't the most important thing to you. And that assumption that that's all that he wants and that's all that I am there for is something that we really notice playing out.

Speaker 2: 45:23

Yeah, it sounds like the thread that ties it all together is the dysfunctionality of sex. We are so dysfunctional or, I would say, we're trying to move out of it. I know that there's the sex positive community that is helping to bring more healing into the way that we look at sex, intimacy and all that is tied to it. But that is what you are trailblazing, both of you, as you go through your experience of re-education Re-education that this is how I'm experiencing my life, from my identity in my relationships. This is what I'm wanting, and it's this thing that I think that we're doing here you, me and all of the other amazing people that are in this field is to re-educate.

Speaker 2: 46:13

And it starts with re-educating ourselves, because I have tons of judgments about myself and about what I'm doing, and am I doing this well? Am I messing up the people that I love? Am I messing up my children, like all of these things? And so I have to re-educate myself and then get solid in that foundation as solid as I can, because that re-education is continually that foundation as solid as I can because that re-education is continually happening and then bring that out into the people that we interact with. So that's a lot that you all are doing. It may not seem like that because we're in our own little worlds, but still, with every interaction that we have, every discussion that we have, it is taking one small or big step forward in healing the relationship narrative, healing the sex narrative, healing the intimacy narrative that we've all been inundated with.

Speaker 1: 47:07

Yeah, and I think I try to, where possible, to be as open as I can be about this relationship and its structure. Obviously, sometimes you can't. It's not safe. You've got to be careful and that's always my first priority.

Speaker 1: 47:24

But something that I've noticed recently is people that have known me for a little while whether it's at work or people that I've known I don't normally lead with the. I'm in a non-monogamous relationship and we have a podcast. But I do find that people that have known me for a while and then find this out, their minds are blown because they haven't had any info about my sexuality, my relationship structure. I'm a white person and I'm cisgender, so I do walk down the street and passing can be good sometimes and bad others, obviously A whole nother distinction. But when they then find this out, that judgment that they would have had if I'd led with it is not there. They think, hang on, you're good at your job, you seem quote normal, because we are, but you seem normal and you've got this relationship, oh, and you're engaged, all these things, oh, but then you're also this thing.

Speaker 1: 48:18

And I find people, when they find this thing at the non-monogamous part of me out, they're captivated because they could not believe that I wasn't a stereotype that has been sold to them otherwise. And I think that when I do have those conversations, they're obviously rare because most people do know, but when they do happen, I just hope that then they move into the world and the next time they come across someone who's non-monogamous they're like oh, I know that you're not sex crazy or that you're not selfish and you're not non-committal, and that you might be like that girl that I used to know, who was actually a really decent person trying her best like everybody, and so hopefully, by knowing one of us, they'll be able to reserve judgment in the future, and that's all I think you can really hope for.

Speaker 3: 49:08

Yeah, and one thing that I do as well is I'm a big believer in and once again, this is me speaking from a privileged position but if you want to normalize something, speak of it as if it is normal and yes and so on a regular basis.

Speaker 3: 49:24

and I do caveat it with oh yeah, just so you know I'm polyamorous anyway, and just go into a story that sort of explains if there's someone a friend or a colleague or whatever that that knows, I have a partner or I'm engaged, and then I say I went on a date. Obviously I don't want them to think that I'm being unfaithful, so I'm going to caveat it with I'm polyamorous, so it's all good, and then I'll just go into the story. You'd be surprised. Actually, more and more people that I do that with are like OK, cool.

Speaker 3: 49:48

And that's really refreshing when that happens. I'm like big believer in if you want something to be normalized, then just treat it, pretend it is like. At the end of the day, there is so many things that are assumed the other way around, that we're all monogamous, so just make the assumptions right back. Make the assumptions that they're going to know that polyamory is a thing and there are non-monogamous people out there.

Speaker 1: 50:11

Give that a shot if you feel comfortable yeah, I had a lovely interaction with a colleague recently, actually on that line, who didn't know that we had a pod and that we're non-monogamous and that I was bisexual. She didn't know any of it and I said oh yeah, it's not a secret, so sometimes I forget who I've told. And she said well, I didn't come to you and say I'm monogamous and straight, so why should you have to come and say that to me?

Speaker 1: 50:33

And that was just a really lovely moment did you give her a hug.

Speaker 2: 50:36

It was a really lovely moment yeah, exactly, we lost the words it was a really lovely moment yeah, and I I hope rich that we can get to the place where it is just a very normal thing it's not a assumed monogamous straight whatever.

Speaker 2: 50:56

It is that that it is just a normal thing that people are different and that actually makes the world better is through our differences, through diversity, through relationship diversity. I really hope that in my lifetime we'll be able to move towards that, because I agree, siobhan, what you were saying is even just having the conversation with one person could help that person's conversation with the next person. And when I had a conversation with Brett Chamberlain of Open, he was talking about that in the gay liberation, in the movement in the 70s and 80s and that's how that became more normal in the seventies and eighties and that's how that became more normal. And so I appreciate what you all are doing with your podcast and with your intentions and just with who you are in this world, that you are a part of this normalizations. I would love for you to talk, just before we go, a little bit about your podcast and how people can find you and connect with you.

Speaker 1: 51:58

But of course, we are the Polly Podcast. You can find us on some social media sites. We are on the internet. We are at Polly underscore podcast on Instagram Threads, tiktok and YouTube, instagram Threads, tiktok and YouTube. You can also email us at podcastthepoly at gmailcom and we have a website which is the-poly-podcastcaptivatefm.

Speaker 3: 52:25

And just so that I'm doing my part, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts that old line wherever you get them.

Speaker 1: 52:33

We are on all of them.

Speaker 3: 52:34

All of them Spotify, Appleify, apple music amazon.

Speaker 1: 52:36

So the poly pod in brackets and then cast and you will find us.

Speaker 2: 52:42

That's awesome, and we're gonna link all of that in the show notes so people don't have to think too much. They can just go down below and click on it and you'll take you right there I love that.

Speaker 1: 52:52

thank you and yeah, thanks for having us on. It's been a fantastic conversation and lovely just to talk about non-normal relationships, normalised relationships. That's probably what I should say.

Speaker 3: 53:07

Oh, there's that conditioning.

Speaker 2: 53:09

Oh, I know, it's like I have to practice saying the word 10 times to get it to roll off the tongue.

Speaker 2: 53:14

Oh my God 100% word 10 times to get it to roll off the tongue. Oh my God, 100%. Yeah. Well, siobhan and Rich, I appreciate you and I know we'll have many more conversations together. Thank you so much for being here. Thanks so much for listening to the Relationship Diversity Podcast.

Speaker 2: 53:29

Want to learn more about relationship diversity? I've got a free guide I'd love to send you. Go to wwwrelationshipdiversitypodcastcom to get yours sent right to you. If you liked what you heard, please subscribe to the podcast. You being here and participating in the conversation about relationship diversity is what helps us create a space of inclusivity and acceptance together. Helps us create a space of inclusivity and acceptance together. The more comfortable and normal it is to acknowledge the vast and varied relating we all do, the faster we'll shift to a paradigm of conscious, intentional and diverse relationships. New episodes are released every Thursday. Stay connected with me through my YouTube channel, where I'll give you even more free resources and information all about relationship diversity. I'm super excited to go deeper into YouTube because I'll be able to connect and have conversations directly with you. You'll find the link in the show notes. Stay curious. Every relationship is as unique as you are.