Ep 024 - No Dig Gardening, Diverting Food Waste and Growing Tips with Rachael from Home Soil

In this episode Averill & Bernadette chat to a local gardening guru; Rachael from Home Soil.  Rachael and her husband Damian grow tasty and interesting vegetables on their picturesque property outside of Canberra.  They promote regenerative gardening systems, building soil, diversity, seed saving and the diversion of waste.  Averill & Bernadette were fortunate enough to get to visit Rachael and Damian's property and see firsthand the amazing and inspiring work they are doing on their small-scale farm.

Links for further information:

Home Soil - Rachael & Damian (@home.soil) • Instagram

Charles Dowding: Home

Dr. Elaine’s™ Soil Food Web School - Regenerating Soil - Regenerative Agriculture Courses

The Next Green Revolution - National Geographic

Call of the Reed Warbler, Revised Edition by Charles Massy 

The Third Plate, Field Notes on the Future of Food by Dan Barber

Transcript

Before we start, Seedy Chats would like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the Ngunnawal and Ngambri country, the land on which we garden. Our land's first gardeners and caretakers. We pay our respects to elders past, present and emerging. Oh, hello and welcome. Welcome to Seedy Chats. Hello and welcome back. Welcome to Seedy Chats, the podcast where imperfect gardeners, Averil, that's me, and Bernadette. Hi, that's me. Chat about our favourite topics, gardening and life. So whether you're new to gardening, a seasoned pro or somewhere in between, join us on our journey to be mindful in gardening and life in general. Avril, how are you going? I'm good, Bernadette. How are you? I'm good, I'm good. I thought we might share a special announcement for our seedy chums this morning. This is very special. This is Bernadette's very special announcement. I wasn't sure when to tell everyone, but on our last post. You can now see a little baby bump. And I thought it was worth clarifying to our seedy chums that I am with child and not just completely letting myself go. That is right. I mean, you do bake a lot. Yeah, it could have been. Amazing food, but yes. It could have been a different bun in the oven. Congratulations, that's what you're expecting. Yes, so we're expecting, we're very excited. I'm getting to the point now where I've got the... you know, having to go to the toilet a bit more, or having weird, the weird pregnancy nightmares. Did you have them? I had very vivid nightmares, yes. Yeah, what is that? Or dreams, I mean not necessarily nightmares. You know what qualifies as a nightmare for me? What? I have dreams that you, I mean. That you and I harvest our garlic and it's all rotten. Well, didn't that just happen? Kinda. But isn't it like, this is, this is. This is the privileged life in which we live. That's my nightmare is that the garlic's rotted, but yes. We're expecting it's wonderful and- Very special, Bernadette, very, very special. And I was actually with child when we popped out to see our guest on the show today, Rachel's place from home soil. And, oh, wasn't it- Isn't it divine? You know what? Rachel was worried that when we were visiting that it wasn't- producing an awful lot. Now when we were there, it was absolutely spectacular, wasn't it? And I'll tell you, it's Bernadette's type of gardening. It's my dream. Think Charles Dowding, think Neat Rose, perfect crop. Also, Rachel and her husband Damien, they follow Charles Dowding's principles on no dig, and it is truly amazing. They do less and they get more. Yeah, it looks like the kind of garden where you would have to be out there for hours every single day, but actually it's just about gardening smarter, not harder. So there's all of these wonderful things that Rachel does to suppress the weeds, to... you make things work for her. She's got chickens and geese and they do work for them in helping, you know, amend the soil and go through their compost. That's right, very similar like permaculture ideas and they do follow different gardening strategies I suppose but they predominantly are no dig, producing small scale farm. And that's what I like about what Rachel and Damien do is that they've got quite a lot of experience under their belt so for them that are very practical, that actually work, that they saw that they were reaping the benefits of those things. So lots of great stuff to take out of this one. So any chance. And I have one amazing visual that I never really thought about. until I saw what was there. So they had these bags of fertilizer and gypsum and things that they had been using many years ago and now they don't use but they also didn't want to give them to anyone because they know that it's not really how we should be gardening ideally. And that actually it can be damaging the soil instead of working with the soil and the micro. That's right, the more, the more, the more. you give the soil of these external benefits the more they actually crave. So that visual will always stay with me because they pointed it out and they were very serious. They didn't want to gift it to anyone because they knew that they wouldn't use it. So why would they gift it on to other people? But we really hope you enjoy this chat with Rachel. We loved our visit out to the property and hopefully we'll get to go out there again soon. Yes, and if you want to check out what Rachel does, please hop on to our Instagram or our Facebook, because she's got some lovely footage that she's shared with us. And it's the kind of, as I was trying to explain to Avril earlier, a different kind of gardening crack, the gardening crack meaning you just can't get enough of it. The photos are so inspiring and it makes you want to get out there and do the same. So enjoy. Avril and I. had the privilege of coming out to your property and seeing what you do, which for me was just like crack because you're a neat gardener. Yeah. And you're a productive gardener. Brenda was like, yes, it can be done. I knew it could be done. Yeah. And I'm doing it. Awesome. And I've actually pinched quite a few things from you since we've been out there. But if you wouldn't mind starting, I mean, you've got this beautiful property and it's very, if people want to imagine that sort of, You're a child's doubting ambassador, aren't you? Yeah. What does that mean? I don't really know officially what it means. But once we moved out to the property, I part of it was some of it was about being more sustainable and part of the tick box in that was just, of course, we'll grow our own food. It'll be easy. And that's just something you do. And for me, I can recognise it when I go out there because if you watch Charles or his videos or if you've got any of his books or I really could see that inspiration in your garden, the little pathways, the way you compost, you know how you've got everything set up. It just is, it looks organised doesn't it? It does, it does, yes. And I was very impressed because I'm not a very organised gardener. And so I was standing there thinking I could actually do this as well. Awesome. delve into it because I'm quite interested. We have notes, we have a few things to bring up as I know you do too. But yeah just going through the whole philosophy because Charles Jarding is a no dig practitioner which you are as well. I know you've got a few types of gardening. Yeah so I went through a whole journey of different, it was always organic, it was never, I never bought pesticides, herbicides, fungicides or even I think we have some fertilizer left over in the shed. Um, lots of it was really good and I enjoyed it and I got a bug for it, but it was really hard. And about, and about 10 years of permaculture, kind of traditional organic gardening, all, and lots of investigating different ways of doing things. I'd seriously got to a point where I was like, I don't, I don't think we can manage this. I think it's just too hard to keep up with. Um, along comes COVID. And I was just on YouTube and started down more European market gardening kind of people and came across Charles and what was our back lawn. I went let's just have a go and I can't. That was just back long. I know. So that was just grass. So the area we're talking about is not very good grass. Yeah. Right. So why? Yeah. And it was with psychological barrier. You were like, no, but you have to have the grass. And you really don't. It's so much nicer having food and flowers and things that are healthy and grow well. And it's a lovely space now. And we love looking out to it. But it was, it's this weird psychological thing that you think you just have grass there outside your kitchen or wherever you are. It makes so much sense to me that you say you stumbled upon his videos in a place when things were really hard for you. Because I was just talking to Avril about this earlier. Charles has. you know, his background is that he produced a market garden, that was his living. Yeah. And he's produced the market gardens on some pretty horrible conditions to start with as well. And I can imagine how hard some of that work is and just out of necessity, he developed ways to make things easier, to make things more efficient, to make it manageable. So is that sort of the parts of his process where you're like, this is what I need? I think I just tried it and it made sense to me. sense to me, it made sense to not to just use compost. And once I started to think about soil life and not disturbing it, not digging made perfect sense. Because when you've got, when you're building soil and you're talking, everyone's talking about needing the organisms, those are what feeds the plants. And then you're digging it up. It's just a no brainer that doesn't make any sense. And then you're turning up the soil, bringing out weed seeds. There's all that kind of thing. Yeah. You're disrupting a system that needs to be calm and needs to be still. So what is your system? I tend to start with the process of the whole farm or garden. So we collect a lot of food waste from Canberra supermarkets and various places. The Ainslie IGA is a really big supporter. Damien is our composter. and builder of amazing things. The compost king. Yeah, so Damien is Rachel's husband, just in case. Yes, could have clarified that. No, that's fine. That would have been good. Just not some random off the street. A bit like Andrew at Brown and Down. Damien drops off rubbish to your property. Just squeeze. Yeah, he's taken about eight wheelie bins a week now. So it's pretty substantial and I love the positive impacts of that and getting down a, not just regenerating our soil and our and our property, but having a larger reach in a positive way. Yeah, I really like that. And making use of that waste. Yes, yeah, it's really great. Yeah, so he brings that in, we tip it down and the chickens have a go at it. So they obviously start breaking it up a bit more, they poop all over it. And we have ducks and chickens and some geese. And they all, I don't, there's no science around this, but I was like, they've got to have different poop. It's good to have different poop. I see what you're saying, yeah? I understand that. And so that's really a major part of it. They have a go and then after a couple of days, he puts it into the compost process. We now are not, when we first started, we invested a whole lot of money in lots of organic compost to be our mulch. We're now self-sufficient in that way. That's pretty exciting. And he's learning really intensely about the... the fine line of producing highly biologically activated compost. So we've come to the place now we understand that there's compost and there's compost. And all compost is okay and I'm in love with all of it but... We want the best. Yes, yes you can. You're taking it to the next level because you've started somewhere right? Yeah, yeah we started with... You know that it works for you and then you're like how can we do it better? So in terms of the garden, how that works is there is no... I... Just before we go into the garden, I have to say it is single-handedly the most impressive compost system I've ever seen in real life. Would you agree Avril? We have seen it and we've seen the willy bins emptied out and I'm like, actually that probably shouldn't be in there. That's very edible. Yes. Like when you think about it anyway. Avril wanted to take off the willy bin condom so shock. But it's just a... I think you hear people talking about... compost and how to, but this was just the whole system, start to finish, have it come in and that continuous rotation, the beds lined up. And look, you're blessed to have that bit of space to be able to have those compost piles working for you. But you know, when we were there and you and Damien turned, you could see the steam coming off the compost. It was a dream. Yeah, it was. So I can understand you guys wanting to take it to the next level, cause I think you're on something. And I do have a good video on that. Yes. Yeah, so it'd be a good show. better now because it's a bit stinky when you came and that's not a good sign that means we're not doing it very well. Everything I... my worm stinks, my compost stinks. You've got to keep it you got to keep it from going anaerobic that's the bad stuff. Um yeah so basically when I make a bed it's predominantly on leaving as much in the soil as possible. So if it's grass, I just cut it really low. Maybe put some cardboard on it if you think you need it. You might not need it. Put some compost on top and that's mulching the soil. It's protecting all the organisms in there. It's feeding them and that's what feeds the plants. And how thick you can, because I've tried to mimic what you're doing. Yep. Okay, I've had some struggles. Yep. I've gone quite thick. I reckon I've done a layer. What are we looking at there ladies? That's fine. Yep, that's great. But I found, and I think the problem, yeah, what are we talking about? Four inches? Four inches. It's a finger. Four inches. It's as much as you know. Anyway. It's how you use it. It's how you use the compost. I ordered compost in, I don't think it was the greatest quality. hydrophobic. Yeah, okay. So it's probably burnt, it's really black. Yes. That might be, yeah. So it'll still make nice mulch. Yes. And I've found that you can kind of activate it by giving it some water. So you actually, you know how you say feed your soil? Yes. I feel like that's really important. Like it's, I actually don't think about. So I try and water, we don't have drippers, but the initial reason for that was because it's dam water and it gets all bummed up and they're all really high maintenance on our kind of scale. And I know they're low water, more efficient, but seeing what's wet and having it not just this little spot around the plant, I feel like that's building your ecosystem underneath the ground in a really good way. Interesting. Yeah. And the water kind of activates, seems to bring it back to life. If you have... that kind of water deterrent, non-dead. Which sort of pools on top and then eventually. Yeah, yeah. The hydrophobic as you mentioned. Whereas before, it just used to suck right down. But if you start with a really light sprinkle, this is a Charles thing. You start with a really light sprinkle and then leave it for like two minutes. and then go back, it'll probably start taking it in. A bit better. And then it's like you're kicking in your system. Yeah, I always try and explain that to Craig with my indoor plants. He'll come along with a massive jug of water and just be like, oh. Yep, and it just runs off. And it comes straight through. And then I'm like, did the ants just wee on the floor? And he's like, oh, Yeah, you know what my indoor plant tip is? Not that indoor plants are my thing. I do have quite a few of them because I just like them being around. I shower them. Oh, yeah. I think I'm very weird, but it cleans off the dust. Yes. You run it all the way through. You don't get the little bugs. Yes. And it's such a good tip. Yeah, no, it is a good idea. Yeah. So back with your... Sorry. That's just the thing. I just have a visual there of me trying to get all my plants into the... In the shower. Yes. Oh, you'd have no shot. I've done it... You'd never be. I've done it at our office, like our office in Braddon. And it's like, what the heck is Rachel doing there? What did you do? Oh, Rachel's at it again. She's not braving it. She's in here putting the plants in the shower. Sorry, Brenda, let's go back. Sorry. So besides, do you just put the compost on top and that's it? Yeah. Yes, yes. So there is no, oh no, actually when I plant I use some seesaw. And what I've learnt now from, we're studying with Dr Elaine Ingham who is a soil ecologist, I think is the term. And she's all about soil life and how plants function and all that. And it's about kickstarting things. So having some activators, but all organic. Yes, no minerals. I use food to soil, which is that organic. Yeah, yeah. Awesome. And so I probably need to hit it a few more times with that. I have noticed in terms of weed suppression, it is remarkably effective. It's fantastic. And that's how much of your work is that? I know it's massive. You just it's done. And then you look enough your plants instead of if you're lucky, we can all go pick some weeds later on after this. But you'll see. Just got back though. You were worried about volunteer is not coming through. Well I did notice that I actually do rely on a few volunteers. I love that that's really cool. When you're talking about the neat garden I was like oh there's a warning there that I need to talk about like the diversity is just I still think that's incredibly important. Like don't get it's so easy to make lots of neat rows of the same thing and lose that diversity and I don't have the figures on our garden and I don't have any facts on it. But you can feel it. You can feel it kicking in and making everything turn over quicker and better. And easier. And alive. And now we have all our vegetable garden is full of birds. All these little birds and we have cockies and stuff that drives me crazy. Yep. And makes a lot of damage and all that, but it's all good. Um, but the little birds that have come, we've been in our place 14 years and obviously there's always changes. So, and you know, that's not hundreds of years of getting a real sense of the environment, but, but my take would be the diversity of creatures. getting more and more is immense. Like you can just feel it and it makes everything better. So volunteers, volunteers are amazing. Yes, use your volunteers. I get volunteers. I'll often have, if you look at any pictures, you'll see that lots of my rows have stuff at the end. Anything that comes up somewhere that I'm like, this is a fine place for you, I just let it go. And they still come up. Even though, I mean, there's still weeds, it's just reduced dramatically. It's just easier to manage and they still get your volunteers. And not only do I let them be if they're somewhere that they're okay, because they're just doing their thing. They usually grow better, don't they? When they've timed it themselves. Yes, use them. What are they telling you? What are they telling you about that spot? What are they telling you about the weather? Yes. So you were saying you weren't- Timing, what are they telling you about timing? So you weren't getting them as much with your thick layer though, were you? Yes, it's definitely gonna be less. Yeah, but I've gone thick because of course, underneath the compost, I had a cover crop. So I cut the cover crop, I did a layer of that. Nice. Then I put the compost over the top. You didn't dig it. So it's doubled. Nice. No, I didn't dig it and I left all the roots. So I literally did everything that you do. Nice. And I must say, it looks very neat. And I'm just finding everything I'm putting in there. I'm just digging a little bit deeper to the original, I say inverted comma soil, to where I see that's really moist and I'm getting it down there and then I've put some manure on top. Cause you often see that with Charles chatting, he uses a Dipper. Yeah, and I do too. We were talking about that this morning. So Dib it in. Yeah, it's a lot quicker and you're not, you're not disturbing more soil than you're putting your plant into. So when I actually plant, that's what the only time I use the seesaw. So I do a little Dipper hole I, most things I don't, I grow from, I grow from seed, but then I on pot them on into trays. And then I put the trays into the garden. Charles does seedlings. He dips and transplants them when they're pretty small. Tiny, yeah. Are you doing them pretty small? I'm almost too afraid. Yeah, I think I probably do it a bit more than him. I also plant a lot. because a lot of I do especially if it's my own seeds and I have so many who cares if it's not 100 germination I feel like that's I um I have enough and the ones that aren't germinating weren't meant to germinate they weren't maybe I'm not doing what they need And that's what I want to do. That's what I want. I want the plants that are right for my area, what I'm doing and the processes I'm using. So don't break your heart if you don't get 100% germination. It's not as big a tick box to me as it seems to be. And are you starting everything in the greenhouse? Not now. So in winter, everything's in that little greenhouse. And I've now planted, since you guys got there, I've taken the soil from the hotbed. and some commercial compost and done a comparison on either side of the bed and planted tomatoes and capsicums, jellies like yours. So I'm going to try and overwinter them like you do. By the way, they overwintered wonderfully for the second year. Yep. But I'm not going to get a third out of them. Interesting. They're done. And the tomatoes did not overwinter at all. I went to pick them up to see what was happening and it just rotted off. Yeah, right. At least you tried it. Yeah. The second year in fact, the second year with the capsicums, they did better for me than the first year. I wonder if the soil's gone anaerobic. If it's really hot and sticky in there, maybe it's started to not aerate enough and you haven't got enough oxygen in there. It's basically like clay. Yeah. Might catch you to have a look at that before we go. Awesome. It's worth noting, so even though Charles never does it, like he plants things and he digs to plant things, you plant a tree, you need to dig a hole. Yes. It's just common sense. It's not, you know, it's not... a sin. It's just, it's just, we're trying to not disturb it as much. Think about what you're doing. Elaine Ingham, who is the soil food web lady, she talks about digging once. So doing your, getting all your organic matter into your dirt. and bringing to life, getting some water in there, getting some air. So that you, as you're once off. Once off a year or once ever? No, just once. Once ever. Because you kickstart it and then you can keep it going. So the big overarching thing is about how, that I've learned, is about how plants grow. And it's fundamentally different to what my understanding was. And I think most people's understanding is. So plants are basically solar panels. We get all that from photosynthesis. Everyone's understanding that they're taking the carbon, they're doing the thing, they've taken energy and they're putting it down into their roots. They're putting out things called exudates, which is basically stuff that goes out, which is mostly, they kind of, I guess so. Yeah, yeah. It's mostly sugars. No, testy poo. Yes, carbohydrates and sugars. Everything everyone's not allowed on diet. So that encourages and nurtures an ecosystem appropriate to them. And that's what feeds them. So do they put out those sugars to entice? Yeah, both. They nurture it, they bring it to life and they build this little ecosystem around their roots. That ecosystem, so it's basically, so it starts with fungi and bacteria and then the next tropic level eats them and poops out what the plants need. The... The plants only attract exactly the ecosystem that's going to feed them exactly what they need exactly when they need it. It is amazing. And if they need something, can they send a distress signal? It's really... Send their friends off. I'll give you some sugar if you could get me some pasta. Pretty much. That's kind of it. Yes. It's really, really complicated and there's a lot of science that's still catching up but I encourage people to look into that. engage with that kind of thinking. The cool, it gets so, so cool. So not only do they have this little cool ecosystem around their roots that they're keeping going, but it, all the bits of that ecosystem gets carried up by bugs over their whole system and it protects them. It makes them not attractive to diseases and pests. Yes, and you see that because when you've got a plant that's struggling, you can have a healthy plant and you can have one, the exact same variety right next to it. But when one's struggling, every pest, everything succumbs to it. And the healthy one's got like this force field. Yeah, it's exactly. Yeah, that's what it's like, a force field. So that's below the ground and above the ground. And so as the plants age and they want to go to seed, they're starting to put all the energy into going to seed. and they stop protecting themselves as much. And then they're starting to age and then the system goes on. And then they mulch down, they become your next feeding the soil. And it keeps going on. The circle of life. Yes, the circle of life. It's kind of like ourselves in our own bodies where we want to build our immune system and keep really, really strong. So yes, but then you get pregnant and your immune system gets suppressed, right? Yeah. It's exactly like the plant because you're focusing on more seed. You're putting all your energy into it. You get all your focus and then, and I'm basically. Losing hair. I could die from powdery mildew tomorrow. And so knowing all of that about the ecosystem and the roots and all of that, has that changed how you garden now? The coolest bit was that I was already doing Charles's stuff because I was like, this works for me, it makes sense to me. Now you just know why. And now, yeah, and every bit. And when I started learning more about the, like the nutrient cycles of plants, basically, and the life, it just... most of it, I can't think of anything that I've gone, okay, cool, I need to change. Oh yes, there's one thing. There's one thing that's really cool. So I used to, I don't do a formal rotation and neither is Charles. I got- So no crop rotation. No, no, I used to always put in the next plant was a different variety, a different family from the one that was just there. So it was just kind of, it wasn't four years. It wasn't anything formal like that. It certainly wasn't giving tomatoes the time they're supposed to have. it was just, okay, the next thing will be different from what was there. Yeah. Elaine's stuff is really interesting because she talks about the idea that these ecosystems are actually about that plant. If you're like, I don't dig them up, I cut them off. Those roots are still there. They're still doing their little thing quietly, making this ecosystem. If I then put in a different kind of plant, I'm mucking it about. Goodness, are you anti-rotation? Is that what we're saying? I'm really struggling with it. Because I don't have the room to rotate and this suits me, don't you? I'm really struggling with it. It doesn't make sense when you say it out loud. It's kind of like, I get it. Like the pre-existing infrastructure that the tomatoes need is there from last time. Yeah, of course. But I really struggle with it because I feel really strongly that the diversity is important at the same time. Like the idea of a monoculture, because it was a monoculture, doing it a monoculture again, they can't be good. But where it's led to now is I've started planning. So the other point along that is that she talks about winter and keeping, like you're talking about having your compost kick in. that we're saying water it and start it going and put some plants in there and start it and keep, even planting plants to say, I'm doing this for my soil. Just like you do. Yeah, I always say that, keep something in your soil. Yeah, and it's better to have something in there than have nothing at all. Yeah, so what she's suggesting now is, so amongst all my beetroot, I've started putting thyme. So putting perennials amongst your... Non-perennials. In interplanting. Yes, interplanting that will stay there all winter rather than going. So when you guys came and visited, it was pretty bare at our house. Because I'd kind of stripped it. I mean, it was pretty, it was pretty awesome. My house was bare. Yeah. But the idea that you must be absolutely on steroids at the moment. I think it's the best it's ever been. Oh, wow. It's pretty good. She sits humbly on a giant car. You have to show me some photos. There was a smoke factor there. I think it's the best bit of a bit. I've managed to take a day off work. So I get more time than most people do. And I'm investing that in just growing and having a garden. It's a bit of a huge luxury. Yeah. And as you fix one thing, then you can move on to the next. It's constantly improving. And it's been 14 years. And even though a lot of that wasn't the no dig and knowing what we now know, we were still kind of getting things in place and thinking about it. And yeah, so there's a lot of infrastructure and stuff like that, that we're, you know, you move into a new house and there's always that period. Oh yeah, even here, you know, this was a new build. That's what I have to remind myself sometimes when I'm, you know, I look at things and I think it's a work in progress. I'm like, this was just rock when we started. It takes time. And I'm glad to hear you say that as well, that when you have to be there for a while, because you do. I feel like I'm eight years now where I'm living and I'm only really thinking properly about my, like I had a growing little area, but areas that I, you know, do better like orchards or I know you know where the sun is all day. Yeah yeah and there's permaculture stuff about that they talk about being in a place for a year and feeling it and seeing what happens when and where the wind goes and all that. That's right and that's a difference too when you I guess as a gardener you sort of take on you spoke about this when you're probably about being a custodian of that land. Yeah yeah. So you've got that time behind you now to really understand and build on it. Yeah yeah and I'd like to I'd like to do that. Yeah, so we have a large percentage of the property that's put under a volunteer program that... gives it to wildlife and that's important to me. And that's also a permaculture thing, the idea that you have to give back and that the nature is on the edge of your garden farm, whatever you wanna call it. That's really important to me and I love having... And you've got the turtle sanctuary, you do approved turtle sanctuary. So no one's released any yet except for us off the road. I will be there one day with the turtle. I picked them up a lot. Yeah, Craig's putting on his jacket going, why does this smell like turtle? Have you pooped on me yet? It's a bit like magpies. It's like everyone hates them because they, and I was like, if someone attacks my baby, I'm taking you down. You know, and we vilify them. Turtles just pooping on you to protect himself. That's right. He's all good. Brenda, shall I go put the kettle on? It's cup of tea time. I'm not doing your beetroot. I struggle with beetroot. I get lots of leaves. I get crappy little... So here's the thing. Eat the leaves. Yeah. The leaves. I am mainly interested in the roots. Roots are really good too. I reckon if you keep picking the leaves, does it not get bigger? Like I remember at the community garden, I was just growing these beetroots for their leaves. I didn't care about the beetroot. What are you doing with the leaves? Maybe it was just there a long time. Salad, just raw salad. beetroot are the same thing. One's. Seeds do look all nice. So one's bred for good big roots, one's bred for big leaves. Oh, there's a reason we had Rachel here to chat to us. Well my silver beet does very well. There you go, yeah. But I just found when I kept picking them, by God those beetroot that came out of the ground were massive. Interesting. I wonder if it's just the time. Maybe you're just not giving them enough time. Are you multi-sowing like Charles? I find it, I do sometimes. I have some beds, but my neat freak struggles with because they're not going to be you're going to get more purse space. They're not going to be beautifully shaped. they're gonna be kind of mine. Well, maybe other people get it better. I've seen other market gardeners get like a chunk of three at least that are beautiful, big and beautiful. Mine tend to, because they're wrapping around each other. So you are multi-sewing, so you're sort of doing three-macelle? Bit of both, bit of both. Okay, okay. So yeah, so- Are you starting in a try and transplant? Yes, always. Always. Yep. So explain to me, the multi-sewing. But if I do one, it's beautiful. Do they grow together, like a big bulb is bulb? Yes, so- Oh, it's a child's thing. And it's, yeah, it calls it like friendly growing, but it's a bit like when we were talking the onions, remember we were talking about that it's not just the multi-serving companion planting kind of thinking, we often think about that in terms of what it's bringing the soil or what pests it's blah blah, but there's a physicality to it to... as well that I think is positive. So a tiny little onion plant is so vulnerable to wind or you know you plant it there and you're like this does not have a chance. But if you give it some love with some little things around it that are going to be quicker to grow that will support it that while it's getting a kicking in a bit you can have some love. I remember you having that. Like a volunteer I went to a food forest workshop last weekend, the weekend before I can remember and they talked about like a nursery tree. Yes same stuff but on a small scale. Yeah I was very impressed with that because their nursery tree was a fast growing native tree and then they ended up cutting it down because it got way too big it was going into a power line but I was impressed as to how quickly it grew. Yeah. And but it was there to protect the lemon tree I thought that's very cute. Yeah. Interesting, interesting. So it's like another type of companion planting in a way. Just another level of it. The structure, physical structure. Most plants just seem to grow better together. This tree was also a nitrogen fixer in the ground. There was native, like growing your legumes. I was quite interested in how there was native nitrogen fix. Anything with the peas. Yeah. Should be. Yes. Peas return nitrogen to the soil, don't they? So they're good to plant, for example, after tomatoes, I think, that'll use it all up. And very interesting, you said too, that when you first started, you had more input. and you've moved away from that. Can you talk to us about that? Awesome. So the big one to start with is the idea that all soils around the world, this is from Elaine Ingham again, have what plants have the minerals that plants need but not necessarily in a plant available form. They have like humongous, humongous amounts. like beyond, I can't even remember how many years, but it was a lot of years, like hundreds of years, thousands of years type of. enough to grow and keep growing and keep growing and keep growing. What you need is the soil life to make it into a plant available form. To unlock it. Yes, basically. But when you put inputs in... How the So it's worth, so when we have imports, so there's, are you guys, it's a kind of American understanding, but most people might know it, the idea of the green revolution. So my understanding now is that the green revolution, which obviously was not green at all, because it was about pesticides and chemicals, it was completely the opposite. It worked because we'd already, lots of the soil was damaged by tilling. So it was already dirt, it was already dead. But the reason it works, the chemicals works is because the plants needed something. There was something you needed there. Yeah, but the amounts that we put on are vastly more than the plants need. And then we run it off and there's all sorts of negative. consequences of that. Plus it's expensive, right? Yeah, plus you pay for it. Yeah. And you have to constantly do it. So when you're putting it into the soil, it's constantly wanting more and more. Yeah. So we're not fixing this solution really. Totally. So, and the plants are getting whatever they want the second they, you know, the micro whatever. Spoiled child. They want it, yeah. And so they're gonna grow better. And I think about it a bit along the lines of junk food. So you have your hit of junk food away and you get fat and unhealthy. Although a memory, a memory for being at your property and you talking, you did say, you did state that part of your growing was to actually show your kids that the other side of food other than our fast food, like not the naming, but yeah, in terms of when we first moved in and saying we're going to be sustainable, blah, blah. It was like, of course we're going to grow our food and that will help us teach our kids that there's alternatives to take away, blah, blah. That there's. different world. What do you want to say to the person that's still liquid fertilizing every Saturday? Yeah, so I so the big flag to wave for me would be invest in knowing how to grow well invest in knowing the outcomes of any practices that even an organic garden is doing and support the people that you feel are on a journey that's in the space that you want to support. Yes. Because the outcomes are, I started growing food because I just loved it and I wanted to do it for my kids and it just was a bug and I talk about it a little time. It's all that I think about most of the time. But the more I learn, the positives are just beyond amazing. Yeah. For humans, for the planet, there's no bad here. It's just, and, The good is like overwhelmingly and you just need to engage with the learning about it and anything, so many things can be solved through our food. And through our practices as well. And don't be the ostrich in the sand. Like you say, if you knew potentially some of the practices that you were supporting now, you might actually go, well, that doesn't align with my values. I just never realized that that's how this was happening. So just having that extra step to have a bit of a look into things. Keep looking. Yes. Keep looking. Because what I'm telling you today, what I'm telling you today will be what I will learn from. This is not the Bible. This is gonna change. Yes. the practices get better and we just need to keep engaging with it because the positives are so amazing. It's great that you're right there doing that. You know, because I think that inspires me. I know it inspires Bernadette as well. Like to see it in action and working is fantastic. And done neatly. What do you think over the years of gardening? What has made it easier for you? Like, obviously no dig has made it easier for you. It's huge. It was massive. Yeah. And Charles is actually such a lovely human. Like, he's really, he's decent. And yeah. are great but he's put him and I guess his son filming him like putting it out there and sharing it and then investing in bringing it to the world is it's pretty cool stuff Seedy Chums, just taking a second to remind you to follow us on our Instagram, Seedy Chats. We didn't talk about that child's thing too of, of pruning your vegetables in that way. So that's a really good slug habitat thing. Yes. Yeah, so I take all the, all the leaves that are starting to, all the outside yellowing or whatever, it's probably what makes it look better. I was about to say, Yeah, visually. Yes, on your, on your wavelength. But I can appreciate that as well, cause I would do that and I'd be like, oh it does look a little bit like. So imagine your life as a slug. Yeah, imagine where you want to hang out. Some sticky and slutty. Yeah, so all that kind of stuff rotting is a fun place to be for them. So are you taking anything touching the ground? Not so much. If it's really healthy, I kind of judge it a bit. And obviously you don't want to just totally degrade your whole plant. But if it's yellowing, it's not doing much anyway. Clear it away because then the ecosystem that's trying to clean up that mess... slugs, snails, whatever. I don't think we actually talked about it because we knew this from the lat, from when we visited you. But so you don't use a lot of mulch. You don't use any mulch underneath at all. You initially just- Yes. Slugs love wet mulch. Yes, yes. So we talked about before the idea that, and it's another child's name, that the, and it's also quite flat. Yeah. And rather than raised beds, I found that the edges of the beds where I, if I had it raised, the compost fell down and then it was exposed and weeds came up on the slopes. So as flat as possible, lots of, lots of, lots of wood chip in the paths and then flat. And you imagine that from yet again, from a sludge perspective, it's like a desert. Like there's nowhere to be, there's nowhere to hide. Yes, and the sun and it's dry and so much distance. And it just seems to work. I just had a vision of a snail doing a little... Where do we go now? Looking around and running. Yeah, so the same as edges. So I've got no edges or it's just land with beds and paths. So imagine it's the same with... Yeah. You're a little person, so you've got little paths. I thought they would be too little for a person. But then I was talking to Avril afterwards and I said, but you know what, that's also garden bed space. Yeah. So we had the privilege of seeing how you made the beds, which was sort of an aha moment as well. Wasn't it Avril? There was the stakes and strings. Yes, making it nice and neat. Yes, visually it was beautiful. This is true. Yes. So I, so yeah, and I actually, they're a bit organic in terms of their shape as well. Like I start with about 40, 80 for the sides, 40 for the 40 centimetres and 80 centimetres. So 40 centimetres for the path. Yep, yep. And then 80. But then I've also, then I kind of, in main areas, the paths get bigger and in less main areas they get smaller. So I just, every year when I'm redoing stuff or... every two years or whatever it is, I'll just look at how it's feeling to use, the space is feeling to use and then adjust accordingly. Things, the bigger the beds, yet again, it just feels like the plants do better, like they're together and they're, yeah, it's... And so no raised beds, so no wooden rate, because I think wood also attracts slugs and they can hide in there. They tend to love that. And I've got areas like at the edge of the kitchen garden, there's some beds and they're full of flowers and lots of volunteers. And that's what I feel like is a intense ecosystem kind of place. And there's slugs and snails in there, but that's okay. That's their land, that's their hangout and whatever they need to do, they can do. That's another good point about diversity. where you accept those things and attract them. And it's actually a really beautiful place. Sacrificial to protect where you don't want them. And yet it's actually a beautiful place. And I get food there that I had nothing to do with that's just coming up next year. I get these flowers, I get bouquets of flowers forever. And it's just, and... The bugs obviously love it. It's so little import. All your beds are low on the ground. So what about, like, do you have any back trouble around the thing at all? Do you have anything raised at all? What would you say to someone that- That's interesting. Cause I think I used to get bad, a whole sore back when I was digging all the time. But my dib is high enough that I'm standing up when I'm doing it. And did you, what did you make the dib out of? Cause I've got a short dibber. I see Charles with his long dibber. I think it was a rake. He's dibbing standing up. So he's walking and dibbing. Yes. So that's what I'm doing. Yeah. handle that he has and I do get blisters in palm of my hand but so I recommend if you can get a handle but mine was it was a rake it was a really crappy rake that sometimes people give me their gardening stuff when they're moving house or whatever it's really fun it's really cool but um yeah so it was a rake that broke because it was not Very good quality. And so he stuck a wooden thing in the end of it that was the Dibba. It wasn't wide enough for my previous modules, but I got some hand-me-down ones that are a lot thinner and it's perfect. So think about your seltray size and your Dibba and how they correlate. That's a good tip. The beds where I started doing lots of organic gardening and stuff. So obviously the kitchen garden was lawn straight on that. Yep. worked perfectly well. The more recent beds that I've done like last year, it was pretty much on rock and I got really, really impatient and the compost wasn't quite ready and things like this and I've had some problems. So it's worth thinking about what you're investing in for the long term. How do you know you're impatient? How would you know when it's ready? The compost? It was still a bit... It was still a bit warm, which is really shameful. It's like one number one, don't do it rule. But I was like, yeah. So if it's still doing its thing, it's not stable yet. And it's not ready yet. So yeah, so the compost wasn't ideal. And then I put it on like almost like, Baiwang is gold mining town. It's not food growing town. And I put it basically on the virgin thing. It's... the first things I put in have struggled and I had some a whole crop of uh of cauliflower that I had to get rid of but now it seems to be kicking in. Yes. It's really interesting and that's gardening gets easier in that respect. And why would you do like oh that one of the same sentences one of your guest's heads was really cool was about anything you do, nature's not going to do. Yes, Dr. Scott Brennan, every job that you take off nature is now a job for yourself. Yeah, and also even like the thinking around like letting it kick in. Like in the chicken pen, we have all these fruit trees that we planted and they're covered. So there's lots of symbiotic stuff going on there where they get fed by the chickens and they're protected by the thing that's checking that the birds can't get in and all that. So thinking more permaculture kind of thing. thinking. But we've had to be patient and kind of go. and they're just getting great this year. And I think it's been four years. And no chemicals, no inputs. And we're just kind of going, whoa, look at those fruit. I'm thinking your chickens and ducks underneath will also help with pests. Like pest all sorts of things. Yep, yep, yep. So they're all working together. Yeah, so they're feeding, the chickens are feeding it and they're looking after the pests. That's all that kind of thinking. But it's also physically protecting them from other birds. So the foxes can't get in for the chickens, but it's also good for the trees. And we've also found that it's good for the elevation. We've got Damien's made this amazing chicken houses that they're off the ground, but they're also the grounds grid, so they don't get mites and things in there. Ah, very good. The air flows, they're protected, they're safe, they're warm. Yeah. But there's also really good air flow. They're off the ground and they're not getting all that kind of... You know, you can feel it if it's a nice place to be. Yes. Yeah, it's not mouldy. It's not stagnant. Do you move your chicken house? No, it's concreted in. But the area that they have outside, we have movable fences. So that... I did love that about your property, was that your movable electric fences. Yeah. So you can have them work on one bit of land and you can move them around. That was... yes, yes. Yeah. It's a lot harder to do than the YouTube videos So actually moving the fences is a big job. It takes us about two days to do it. And you obviously need to turn the moulds. You only forget one. You'd be surprised how many times you forget. So Rachel you do a lot of seeds starting yourself. and seed saving. Tell us a little bit about seeds. Awesome. So yeah, most things I grow from seed, I obviously if somebody gives me a plant or I'm in a garden center and there's a plant there, I might not grow. They're forced to mind up. Especially onions, I find them a bit tricky and I don't grow a lot of spinach, English spinach. I just, I don't know why it's not great. Everything else from seed. I grow that really well by the way. Nice, nice. Just to let you know. Nice. So. Sorry, go ahead there. I'd love to know your tips. That's pretty cool. Maybe it needs to be grown messily. Probably needs a better ecosystem. A bit of a hectic life. Nice, maybe. I do like it. It's nice to eat though. Always open pollinated. I think there's, in terms of bigger impacts, there's huge like. What's open pollinated mean? Dangers in so. The F1 seeds are, there's nothing like wrong with them, but they're made by a company and they're crossed by a company. They mean that the next life cycle of that plant probably won't be consistent. It probably won't be what you got the first time. So why would you do that when you can invest in something? that you can keep going and becomes more and more appropriate to your context and what you like. And again, and save and use and save and use. Yeah. And it does get better and better to you. Right. And it's important to look at which plants you save, which actual species, not just species, but that particular tomato. It's heartbreaking some days, but you said, I often go, this is my best one. so I'm not going to eat it today. Which is a hard sacrifice. But I'm investing in the future. Yeah, and it's not just your future. It's a big deal. Like it's the less we save seeds, the less they're going to be around to save. That's the bottom line. The more that we're having something that's created that we then have to purchase. Yeah. Besides the best looking... fruit or vegetable, whatever you're saving. So what other qualities are you looking for? Taste is a huge thing. Yeah, so if I have one bush that I take something from and it's good, I'll then go, okay, so tomatoes are good example. If I have one bush that I'm going, this one's a bit different and it's a bit good, I wanna go there. There's also the tricky bit there is making sure you have enough diversity to then grow a set of seeds. So when I first started, cause I didn't know what I was doing, I often just. went from one plant, every variety kind of has recommended amounts of plants that you should save from. So you do a row. So I've got a row of these garland chrysanthemums that I'm going to save from. They're all good, but then I'm getting a whole lot of diversity that's helping me out there in terms of where they're going, rather than just taking one plant and saying, okay, cool, this is the one. you know, all the crossing and whatever. Never thought about that. Yeah, it's a big one. I wonder about something like if you're saving a certain type of lettuce or maybe a spinach, like if one bulbs too quickly, do you take that into consideration? Yeah, totally. Yeah, so. Or your herbs maybe. When I definitely started doing it for beans, things like beans, I was always collecting the last of the season. Yeah, right. And I was like, this is dumb. Do I want to collect the last of the season? No, you want the ones that start early in the season. No, I want the beginning of the season. Yeah, so everything is impacting it and thinking about what you're saving is important. That's your instinct because at the end of the season you've got lots and you're like, oh just let them dry, I'll let them stay over and I'll save that for next year. Yeah and it's a good way to start. I've just done that. Yes, it's a good way to start but then type to think, so that's the thing, what's my level up? And obviously think about cross-pollination that you don't want. So things like pumpkins, you don't want your half pumpkin, half cucumber coming through. It's not going to be fun. Yes, zucchini is everywhere. It's the classic. is in your soil at the moment. You probably have a lot. Yes, so I have a pretty complicated planting schedule and everything stems from that. So at the moment we have parsnips and carrots and I plant lots of radishes. Are you direct sowing the parsnips? Yes, parsnip and carrots are the... Direct slow? Yes, yep. And I put, that's a good tip, I put radishes in between them. Oh, a bit of inter-planting? So I don't get bored. So I don't lose track like the parsnips and carrots need a bit of love, need a bit of hand watering regularly keeping them damp and if the I see something happening... It keeps me engaged. So it's a good, it's another thing that's managing me. Cause radishes will come through quicker. Yes. So that instant gratification is exciting. Incredibly quick. Yes, you even get to eat some. Pretty clever, yeah. As the carrots come through. Yes. So. Great tip for kids. It is actually. Yes, totally. To get them engaged in the process. And they're really good. Like I didn't used to eat radishes, but out of your own garden, there's that buzz that makes them, and the flavours you can get with all the different varieties are really cool. Have you had them roasted? No, some of the people I sell to do it. I've never, they don't get it. into my kitchen, they're always eaten. Broad beans at the moment, a really cool variety called Tripoli, which is massive. So you're starting broadies now. No, no, they're just about cropping. They're eating them. So you've planted them in autumn. Yes, I think so. Yes. Yeah. I don't actually remember all that. I've got my schedule and I change it like every year. Like it's all written down. I'm happy to share it with anybody who's interested, but it's really awesome. I'll get it to you. It's got like random notes of, you know. Of experience. Yeah. Very happy to do that. Yeah, so these broad beans are amazing because they're huge, but. because of that you can pick them when they're relatively young and they're super sweet. But they're still big. They're so yummy. We just did it in a pan with butter and salt. In fact there are fantastic alternatives in our region to avocado. Oh, can it make a buttery thing? You can mash them up and use them. I love that idea. It's good. Nice. Little tip from me to you ladies. I love a broad bean. My grandfather loved broad beans, so I always grew them for him. But he's since passed. But now I grow them to remember him. But yeah, I was always thinking of ways to use them. And they freeze very well. They do freeze very well. Yes. I like that substitute. Good work on that. That's beautiful. You cut that under your hat. Full of information, Avril. I read a book recently called The Third Plate. And it's an American chef who wrote it. and it links all those positive outcomes to food but then also being a passion for great food. Yes. Being a passion for, this is the best food you can get. It's good for you and it tastes amazing. And who wouldn't want the best food that you can get for your family? And nutritionally, like, because the food that we buy now is just adequate in supermarkets. I don't even. And that's such a worry. No, I don't think so, it's adequate. Yeah. No, it's not. So there's another non-supported, I'm not a scientist take, is about obesity and the link that... some people are forming to our lack of nutrition in our food and all sorts of health issues that run from that. Which makes sense because you've got to eat more of this food to get the same nutritional benefit that you used to get etc. Rachel I know you've talked about what you have in the ground at the moment what are you cooking in your kitchen at the moment? The broad beans were the last thing we did oh yeah right yeah and spinach we've just topped in a silver beet variety called yet again, I'm going to pronounce it wrong because I just read it and remember it that way. But it's called antinata or something like that. It's a lot more solid and shiny than your rainbow chard. What are you making with it? We just cook everything with butter. Yeah, right. A garlic. Yeah, a garlic. So these Asian kind of things I do with garlic and a bit of Asian kind of flavours and then lots of other stuffs just with salt and pepper. And you did mention a book there, the last time we did chatty, you were reading, is it a Charles Massey book? Did you hear that or read that? Was that a good one? It was called? Yeah, that was awesome. Was it the Call of the Red Warbler? The Red Warbler, yeah. And he's relatively local. He's a like a, I hope I get the facts right, but he's a like fifth generation farmer who was really doing a good job, supposedly, and then started to discover different ways of doing things. And... then went to the ANU and now is a lecturer at the ANU in terms of regenerative agriculture. I did jot down the impact upon human health, biodiversity, climate and ecological intelligence. You've got it. Rachel, thank you so much. Thank you guys. And from Home Soil. I know we've taken you away from the land today, so we really, really appreciate your time. And I just wanted to say tasty and interesting vegetables with positive outcomes, because that's what's written on your social media. Thank you. He's hoping. Until next time, Seedy Chums, Slán Lath, Agus, Geref Mán Goeth.