Maryam Ziarati McLoughlin on being personal and getting to know the individual

In this episode of Lessons I Learned in Law, Scott Brown speaks to Maryam Ziarati McLoughlin, General Counsel at Paddle. She joined the team in 2019 and since then has led the business through two funding rounds, grown the legal team, put in place a training contract scheme and lead the people and talent function & DE&I.

Maryam shares the three lessons she has learned in law including:

·      Lead with empathy and assume nothing. 

·      Value personal relationships and enjoy getting to know people on a personal level. 

·      Fortune favours the bold. Be prepared to take risks.

Maryam reveals that through law school she hadn’t wanted to be a lawyer as she hadn’t seen a side of law that appealed to her. That was until she was doing work experience and discovered the creativity inherent to problem solving and the potential flexibility of the legal system. 

Presented by Scott Brown of Heriot Brown Legal Recruitment. 

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Transcript

Scott Brown  (0:03)  

Hi, welcome to Lessons I Learned in Law, series five. We are back today, very happy to be hosted again by the great guys at Beamery. Thanks, X, for having us back. We're surrounded by more tech and lighting and equipment than you can shake a stick at. So we're feeling very grown up. I'm delighted to be joined today by Maryam Ziarati McLoughlin. Hey, Maryam. 

Maryam Ziarati McLoughlin  (0:28)  

Thank you for having me. 

Scott Brown  (0:29)  

On each episode of the podcast, I sit down with leading mind from, normally someone from the in-house legal market, and we talk about their three lessons that they've learned in law and discussions around how they've been inspired to get to the position that they're in. And hopefully that leaves you with a track for your career as well and helps helps you out it would have been something I would have definitely benefited from when I was a lawyer in private practice. To introduce Maryam, Maryam is a General Counsel at Paddle. She joined as their first lawyer and has grown the team, she joined at series B, recently took the business on a recent funding round, which which series was that, Maryam? 

Maryam Ziarati McLoughlin  (1:08)  

That was D 

Scott Brown  (1:09)  

That was D, wow! And that was tied in with an acquisition as well. So has had her hands full. Got a lot going on just now!

Maryam Ziarati McLoughlin  (1:17)  

Yeah. I mean, it's been a ride. I don't think I've had a quiet moment at Paddle since I've started. So I keep thinking it's gonna be the next thing. The next thing. But yeah, it's it's it's a journey. Yes. Put it that way.

Scott Brown  (1:29)  

What would quiet look like?

Maryam Ziarati McLoughlin  (1:31)  

I don't know what quiet would look like I think in my head, I always thought that being in-house would give me that slight balance. It does in a lot of ways. But in others it is, you are on a roller coaster. And you're holding on tight. And I think someone described it to me as, when I first joined, actually, one of the founders said to me, if you don't like change, this place will give you whiplash. And I'm like, no, I love it. It's great. I know there's parts of me that think, oh, my goodness, what have I signed up to? But it's incredible. It's like building the plane as you fly. So it's putting in all of that structure without slowing it down. So it's been fun.

Scott Brown  (2:05)  

Amazing. Yeah, I look forward to hearing more about it. And you started out as a restructuring lawyer?

Maryam Ziarati McLoughlin  (2:10)  

I did, I know for my sins. So I have pivoted quite a lot in my career, never been afraid of that. So I started off in contentious insolvency, moved across to transactional, more mainstream financial restructuring. I went through whatever was going through at the time. So I've kind of seen real estate go up and down. I've seen retail, whatever was in trouble at that particular moment in time, we looked at and I think that gave me really good grounding to be a generalist, actually, having seen so many different types of businesses and so many different types of problems that I kind of spent most of my career in private practice. Yeah. But it gave me really good grounding from when I then wanted to jump

Scott Brown  (2:52)  

Move, move. Yeah, coming from that restructuring, insolvency and disputes background, what was the route to in-house like?

Maryam Ziarati McLoughlin  (2:58)  

It was interesting, because so for me, the traditional route for construction or to go in-house would be go to a fund or a bank. Yeah, I didn't want to do either of those. Having had to come to the comments there and spend enough time looking at that. It's just I wanted to be part of a growing business and see the table and I was tired of living my life in six minute locks, as I'm sure if you're at the other side, yes, jumped. And you feel as a restriction where you're going to put stuff together and set the company back on its way. You're at the kind of window with the nose press start thinking what happens next year, and I wanted to be part of the what happens next. Because you you do all of this work, and you just get the company to kind of the starting line. Yeah. Similarly, when we did the acquisition, a hell of a lot of work, just to get to the starting line. And actually all the work is thereafter after, and it was similar for restructuring. I just wanted to be part of the business and I cast my net fairly wide. And I was lucky enough that for money Graham work took a general counsel that took a chance on someone who had never done financial regulatory work, but had a financial services background and Yeah, clearly good enough generalist. And I stepped into the company at a time of huge change. We were, I think it was PSD to GDPR, Brexit, all of the fun stuff that was happening at the time that I joined MoneyGram and taking the company through a huge amount of change as a result and just learning on the job. And I don't think there's anything that you can't pick up as lawyers, particularly with the background that I had had in restructuring then you couldn't, couldn't specialise in certain parts of a specialist and I think a lot of people think is quite niche that actually in reality is incredibly generous rather than if not so me being in house.

Scott Brown  (4:48)  

Awesome. All right, well, we'll jump in what's your first lesson?

Maryam Ziarati McLoughlin  (4:52)  

First lesson is, it sounds highly esoteric but it's lead with empathy and assume nothing. And I think what I'm mean by that is, you cannot take instructions at face value. In fact, I think it's a quite a strange concept in the UK that we talk about instructing or is, was I think that anything that USD uses that term, I think they find it quite odd because lawyers are generally advisory. Yeah, I think what I mean by that is when you are faced with a client or a problem, is that actually digging deeper and understanding what that person is looking to solve for? And saying, what is causing them concerns? Or what is exciting them? What are they trying to achieve is very rarely what they've asked you to do. Yeah. And taking the time to really understand that means that you will give the best possible solution. And I think one thing that I tell anybody in my entertainment, I hate using the word my team, because it sounds like we're kind of like owning them that I've, I've got a responsibility for how great they are, which I really don't. But I think the team that I serve is probably the best way to put it is that when they do come in, I say like, cannot take anything for granted. In terms of the instructions that you've been given. It is your job to really questioned to really understand what actually are they asking you to do? Not the thing that they have asked you, but what are they trying to solve for? And it just means that everything goes a lot smoother, I think you have a person who appreciates the fact that you taking time to understand them. And for me, it's been the number one lesson in my legal career. I think it probably stand you out, because I think it also cuts through a whole load of time wasting, because you're not giving somebody something and they're getting hugely frustrated that you've answered what you think is their question that actually is

Scott Brown  (6:45)  

or the problem that they're trying to solve? Yeah, that's a good way, a good way of looking at it. Do you feel you you've learned that more when you've been in-house or in practice?

Maryam Ziarati McLoughlin  (6:52)  

I think I've had it in my entire career. Actually, I think it's just because of who I am as a person in that probably fits actually quite nicely into one of my other lessons. But I value personal relationships side of being a lawyer so much. I think being a great lawyer in terms of technical ability for me is table stakes. Every good lawyer in private practice or in house should be good at the back craft. And I think that kind of curiosity and really digging deep and understanding what makes people tick. What would stand you Well, in any aspects of your career, but it's even more vital when you're in house, when you seemingly have one client, but actually, you've got 80 different stakeholders. Yeah. And it's your job in a way to kind of take that zoomed out approach and look at look at the bigger picture. Where are we going? With this? What are we trying to achieve, looking around corners?

Scott Brown  (7:48)  

Yeah. And is it something you look for in your external advisors? 

Maryam Ziarati McLoughlin  (7:52)  

For sure, I think I judge people so much more on their potential, and their skills, their kind of their soft skills, more than I do what they have done on paper. And they're kind of technical old experience, if you like, because I think all of that can be taught, you can learn that. Whereas I think the skill of actually being able to sit and communicate with a client, whoever that client is, and you know, whatever seniority that client is, is key. 

Scott Brown  (8:22)  

Yeah. And you mentioned the US like, do you do a lot in the US is there a lot of different approaches you touched on?

Maryam Ziarati McLoughlin  (8:28)  

We've got a fairly big presence in the US, which is a recent one. So when I joined Paddle four years ago, now, we just set up a US entity. And we're then at that I think it was must be COVID. I think COVID probably put a pin in that for a little bit. And then just after as we went through kind of Series C, which was in the same year as COVID, 2020. Thereafter, we launched in the US sort of proper and built out teams there. So Paddle's always had a global presence and US is a significant market for us. But in terms of actually kind of people on the ground, that's a fairly recent... But I support the team in the US, at the moment completely out of the UK, with external counsel support where we need, but it is a completely different market. And I think the US certainly value lawyers more than the UK do, I think probably because it's so litigious. So yeah, I think getting ahead of problems is probably more key.

Scott Brown  (9:31)  

Yeah, they get involved much earlier and seem to get involved at a much earlier stage in things before things go in before they go around. And then you see a lot more contentious general counsel's who are from a litigation background in the US and yes, much more common.

Maryam Ziarati McLoughlin  (9:46)  

And it gives you quite a good branding. I think I always valued the contentious start I hate in my career, because I think what it shows is a you're not afraid of disputes. The B you see those problems at the very niche On stage, so that when you are drafting or when you are advising you are looking for where things could go wrong. Yeah, I think that's really helpful. But equally, that can be overplayed. Because you don't want to end up just taking points for the sake of it again, coming at it with both people trying to achieve the same thing. And, again, understanding what what is important to them what's important to you, and making sure you cover those. Versus sticking stuff in there for the sake of it.

Scott Brown  (10:28)  

Law school. Did you always see yourself as a litigator? 

Maryam Ziarati McLoughlin  (10:31)  

So interesting. No, I mean, I did law thinking I'd be a human rights lawyer. Yeah, I mean, this is like Amal Clooney has my life, I swear. So I actually that's completely, that's my whole life, purpose and inspiration going and doing always thinking that I would do good in the world. And actually just fell into kind of contentious. As long as they haven't come out of law school on my saying to my mom, I really want to just go and travel, I didn't enjoy studying more, I found it incredibly dry. It didn't seem relevant. It wasn't very practical. Anyone who's kind of done a law degree will know that it's, it's fine if you want to be an academic, but going through on a line by line basis, what a judge was thinking when they handed out, I mean, I don't even think they knew that they would have spent as much time thinking about what they were trying to achieve as we are today. So I didn't want to be a lawyer. In fact, I hadn't seen kind of a side to it that I was interested in. And my mom was like, before you go travelling and throw away your entire decree, we give it a go go and do some work experience. So I did sort of a stint as a paralegal in a contentious department of a house bustles, a regional firm, and they just won tender for bringing essentially bringing HMRC to the table as a creditor as a true creditor in a way that they never really done before. And I loved it. I loved the tactics of it. I loved the creativity of it, which I think is a very odd word to use. But I think it is incredibly responding. If you're a great lawyer, you're looking at much broader solutions and what is on paper. And what I love about the English legal system is that underlying thread of fairness. So generally, what your gut is saying is a common sense answer is the answer. You don't need to kind of overthinking it's not codified and it's not and rigid. It's actually incredibly flexible. Yeah. I enjoyed that pace, at least. Yeah, I fell into it. 

Scott Brown  (12:29)  

Yeah. Nice. There's always a reason there is just were you inspired by the people you were working with?

Maryam Ziarati McLoughlin  (12:34)  

Yeah to an extent, I think, I think, do you kind of the people who are really, really good at their craft, I think it's always amazing to see, I think I spent a lot of my career not being ashamed of being a lawyer, but certainly playing it down because I didn't like the stereotype that came with lawyers. If someone asked what I did, I would it would take me a long time to turn around. I'm a lawyer or I'd say I'm a lawyer and apologise for it or say I'm Laura and but I'm not as boring as you as that might see. That even now if someone asked them that I work in tech. So what do you do in tech? I'm the lawyer. Okay, sorry. 

Scott Brown  (13:12)  

Yeah, it's so funny that because I think people look at anyone that hasn't probably had the experience of being a lawyer or knowing someone has it up on a pedestal as such a great profession you see it exposed to what you are and been in media and movies and stuff.

Maryam Ziarati McLoughlin  (13:30)  

So maybe it's make it sound like sci fi like fun, doesn't it? I think the glamour I found probably John Grisham and Ally McBeal had a lot to answer for my legal career as anyone listening is probably thinking who? Like, Suits now, isn't it?

Scott Brown  (13:44)  

Yeah, Suits and Meghan, Meghan Markle. Outside of work, what's your passions?

Maryam Ziarati McLoughlin  (13:50)  

I mean, my children probably like my greatest love, as I probably everybody see all right, but they are the my absolute North Star. They think law is probably the most boring thing that they could have ever thought of fact, my youngest said to me, we were holding recently so I really wish he could do a job that was proud of herself. What do you mean? Well, I jumped those rights. I worked really hard to do a lot and she was a nano you know, when you when literally wants to be an astronaut? Why couldn't you do that? I can't see either of them being lawyers although that you they are my husband's also a lawyer. And they definitely are the kids of lawyers in the way that they argue something and you want to sort of throw it back at them. I think that actually sort of half proud half life. But no, they are absolute passions. I think family is incredibly important to me my heritage potion by birth and blood. And so family is just such a big part of who we are as a people but just genuinely my Northern Star. That and as much travel as I can possibly fit into their life

Scott Brown  (14:58)  

have curly hair from the weather

Maryam Ziarati McLoughlin  (14:59)  

Don't, can't cope with the British weather. I should, because I've been here for a very, very long time. But I like the heat. 

Scott Brown  (15:06)  

Yeah. Where do you get to, where is your favourite spot?

Maryam Ziarati McLoughlin  (15:09)  

I think probably Barbados. Found my place there. And it's just a place where we've taken the kids since they were very young. And it's just idyllic. Food is amazing. And the sea's amazing, the views amazing and kind of slower pace of life is incredible. And it makes you realise how much you spend your time just rushing, rushing, rushing. Now I love to get to go to different places like the top of my bucket list is Japan.

Scott Brown  (15:36)  

Yeah, I'd like to get I'd like to get to Japan. And what age are the kids?

Maryam Ziarati McLoughlin  (15:39)  

10 And seven blows my mind that I have a 10 year old to be honest! 

Scott Brown  (15:43)  

Yeah, life just goes! I've got a five year old, life just seems to have sped up

Maryam Ziarati McLoughlin  (15:47)  

it does. And I think as well I remember someone saying to me when I had kids that the days are long, but the years are short. That's been really stopping me.

Scott Brown  (16:02)  

So we'll move on to lesson two, can you share that, please?

Maryam Ziarati McLoughlin  (16:04)  

lesson two for me is personal relationships. I alluded to it before. And I think that is both true, personally, and professionally. I really, really enjoy getting to know people. On a personal level, I think it probably frustrates some people if they come to a one to one with me and expect me to have a written agenda of what we're going to talk about because I probably spend the first probably half of the of the one to one actually just chatting, yeah. And seeing how they are or what makes them tick. I love to know about the family. I just think building that to begin with just makes everything else easier. And I look back at my career and think of the people who did that, with me the lasting impression that they've had on me, it's just been, it's been kind of indelible. And I love to pay that forward. So I really value people who I work with, and who work in my teams. And I like I think if you get to know somebody on a personal level, understand what makes them tick. Again, you can help them on their way and kind of clear the path and do something amazing. And there's such great satisfaction in seeing somebody develop and become, I suppose their most amazing authentic self. Yeah, versus cookie cutter or not really understanding or just seeing somebody is having like a real transactional relationship with somebody I find that really cold and it doesn't sit well with me. And I think on a personal level, it's been the people who have helped me both kind of have a very highs and also my very lows. I've got like a group of very close girlfriends who I became friends with through kind of NCT having my first child and 10 years of having those friendships. Yeah, take me through ups and downs of personal and professional lives. And I think it's so important, and something that I really value. And I think that people should spend time doing that. I think whether it's with your colleagues or clients or your family, whatever that is, I think it's really worth spending that time and not seeing that as an inconvenience, or waste of your time, you're trying to get to kind of what you want to, I think it probably kept me in private practice for a lot longer than I should have been because of the people I worked with. I love them. I we've still got really great kind of survivors club husband, lawyers that leave.

Scott Brown  (18:36)  

That's good to hear as a as a good positive from your time in practice. 

Maryam Ziarati McLoughlin  (18:40)  

I know. The only one!

Scott Brown  (18:42)  

Not always, it's not always the case. How did that management, how did you go about in your first position managing people?

Maryam Ziarati McLoughlin  (18:49)  

it's interesting, because in private practice, you don't manage people, you manage teams, you manage deals, you are not incentivized to collaborate, you're not really incentivized to work as a team really. And but I always enjoyed that aspect of informal mentoring. And I really did, some of the relationships I have with people that I work with being people who were Junior, at the time that I was kind of a senior associate, and seeing them develop and understanding what made them tick. And I just really enjoyed that aspect of it. But I don't think lawyers are generally well, they're not trained to be ambitious. That's not their job. Their job is to kind of work on a deal. Get the most out of that particular deal, but not actually develop anybody on any kind of personal level. It's just not it's not a natural skill. I don't think for lawyers, but I think you're missing a trick if you don't really invest in it. So my first I suppose tree management job was when I went to MoneyGram. And I think the way I approached it was how did that is all of the good and the bad that I had in private practice. So the partners who really took time to develop me and those who didn't, and taking the lessons learned from the ones who didn't I possibly even more so I think adversity makes you the person that you are. Yeah, I don't think a smooth path necessarily makes you an incredible lawyer or an incredible human being it's the ones knocks on the way and the bumps. Yeah, really shape you. I think probably some of the toxicity of the private practices, some of the people who I worked with that just as much to thank for her manage now as the ones who actually did an incredible job of answering

Scott Brown  (20:27)  

Yeah, it's really hard to think that way when you're in that you're missing it when you're facing it

Maryam Ziarati McLoughlin  (20:33)  

It's hideous, and no one should have to be there. Right? I do you think law firms are ripe for change. And I think I have what I really admire about generations coming through is they would not tolerate anywhere near the kind of stuff that I did as a junior lawyer. But I think the problem is they're not incentivized to work in any other way. If you've got kind of an eat what you kill culture in private practice, you're not incentivized to collaborate, to not stab somebody in the back. Yeah, or to kind of pull some it's political. I found it incredibly critical. And I think you can sort of play the game. But actually, after a while, it becomes an exhausting place to your career. And I think that's a huge part of actually, why I wanted to move was that I thought, I can't see myself being partners with. Yeah, because all of that, as I actually I don't want to warm that from a lie. Yeah, I like the life that I have. I don't want my children to be an inconvenience, I don't want you to virtue signal that you've got kind of women's networks, and you support working mothers, whereas, you know, on the other hand, if I I used to work like a nine day fortnight, but my fifth day was never was just being paid less for doing the amount of work

Scott Brown  (21:41)  

yeah, there's not really an individual's... I looked at it and I thought, but then all the stuff you said around management and senior associates work your way up, and then even sales and business development, I don't think it's really encouraged until now, hear your partner, go out and sell majority of people don't know how to handle and aren't coached or trained in it. And in that environment, which is so different from the management consulting accountancy firms. And yeah, it's a little bit still very backward. But I think that partners what I thought is that they don't have like their scope for influence, because they're, they're sort of institutionalised within that fish environment that's difficult to Yeah, who's changed through it gets into things differently.

Maryam Ziarati McLoughlin  (22:28)  

It is. And it's a very odd setup, because it's a sort of weird club, people want, you were taught from a very young age as from a very young junior, baby lawyer age, that that's what you want to be part of, they don't really tell you what that means. It's such an odd concept that you would push for it without actually really knowing what you're getting yourself into, you know, you're not the kind of finances are probably fairly opaque before you sign on the dotted line. Yeah, you have no real idea. But you still want to be part of it. I think, actually, it's one of the greatest kind of marketing, ruses Ponzi schemes that's everywhere you run partnership at a law firm. And it takes a certain kind of person to sit there and go, No, I want the status quo. Yeah, that comes with that I should buy one, there's a different path. And I think there was still a real exception. Certainly, when I was in private practice, that going in house was a failure. I look at now I think how insane Yeah, to do that. Yeah. Why would I? Why would I not? I think because the often probably sort of people's in house is going to be in the work blockers for them to really develop that relationship with the client. Whereas for me now, particularly, when they understand actually, the legal work comes from me, it doesn't matter how much they develop their relationship with everyone else in the business. It does mean that the need to develop the relationships where there's actually quite nice fire. Yeah, because you still have to take the battering as the lawyer in house but every so often, just being misled is actually quite nice. You know, you see it from both perspectives, but it's yeah, it's a strange concept. But I do think being in private practice gave me the grounding. I need it for being in house too, because then training me get is, is meticulous. And you do start from the bottom up, do you see so much stuff whereas I think, cost to move people who start Junior in house, you'd need someone to really invest in your career. Otherwise you are picking up things as you go along. And you may not get the same deep grounding

Scott Brown  (24:40)  

Finally, we'll come to lesson three. 

Maryam Ziarati McLoughlin  (24:43)  

Yeah, so as far as this one is like a bit of a take on like Fortune favours the brave and I think for me, it's Fortune favours the bold. Yeah, I think taking risks in my career, and in my life generally have always hand out. In fact, I think I probably regret where I haven't take Can a bold move more than I've ever regretted taking a bold move. So, I am slightly masochistic, I think in not staying within my comfort zone clearly. And I've always enjoyed that discomfort of growth in doing something that I've never done before, and not feeling like I'm not going to be able to do it. So from moving kind of contentious litigation type work into transactional, and then moving from those like financial regulatory, which was completely new at a time where new regulation was also coming in. Yeah. And then Intertek, it should feel odd, and you look at anything, how did you do it, but I think it's just a case of backing yourself and understanding that, if you've got the grounding, the rest of it will come. And you'll be fine. And I don't like the phrase, like fake it till you make it. But it's more of a take that leap, you're never going to have perfect, I think a bomber, he said is when you really make any major decision, you kind of get 50% or 51% of the way there in terms of getting comfortable with it. And then you are just going to have to make the decision. Just commit. I think that kind of quest for perfection before you take any move or any decision in your life. We'll just hold you back. Whereas I think if you think okay, well, I've got as much as I'm gonna get, and just take the leap. And I think particularly important for women who often look at a job description and think I need to tick every single one of those boxes before I go for it. Whereas saying a man will often looking at thing Mike and D, two or three of them. Saw that hold? Yeah, give it a go. Yeah, I I have the same for decisions I make internally has particularly been how she calls it on the fence totally wants a two page memo. They want a yes or no or yes, if will tell me how to do it. Yeah, I think you've got to be brave enough to make the decision and make the call. And I've enjoyed that so much kind of being in house in a way that you probably are not able to do as much in private practice, because you're spending quite a lot of your time caveats thing and covering yourself, hopefully not being that helpful.

Scott Brown  (27:07)  

I suppose it's what you're paying now. safecastle for their insurance and their OPI cover? Yeah. Is there any particular risk that you've taken that use retro died off?

Maryam Ziarati McLoughlin  (27:18)  

I think the move in-house into an area of law that I had never done before, was the one that I enjoyed the most, I think and I'd love to say that I'd really thought about it. It was a very calculated chess move. And it wasn't it was opportunistic. And I think we shouldn't be afraid of taking those opportunistic moves. I'm feel that sometimes we probably overthink, it's not in my personality to overthink, I am probably quite impulsive. And that comes from having had parents who are very like that, they moved over to this country. I was born like in a war they left like post revolution and I think if they thought about the what next and as much as sometimes were wants to they would never have done it. Yeah. And I think if my mum if when we should probably will listen to this lawmaker. But she also can think that is not you at all. You're at the most risk averse person I know. She finds it quite shocking. Whereas I would say actually, no, I take risks. It's just I feel that work before I do. Yeah, she doesn't. Yeah.

Scott Brown  (28:26)  

Yeah. I've been trying to do that. Like, yeah, I'd be more like, Mom, that sounds good. They must have some interesting stories. 

Maryam Ziarati McLoughlin  (28:32)  

Yeah, they really do. And I think actually, it's great when you have that kind of upbringing is not very much fazes you, so that it's that healthy dose, dose of perspective that you can only get from having and lived experience, but they do have the brass balls fuel arsenal to try and do stuff. Which Yeah, I mean, literal.

Scott Brown  (28:56)  

Prezi we were speaking before started recording about the roles you've taken on some new functions. Yeah, Paddle.

Maryam Ziarati McLoughlin  (29:03)  

Yeah. So recently, we've had a bit of a reorg we've got a new CEO, who was our CEO, our CEO and founder has moved into kind of an exec Chairman role. So the exact same is taken a bit of a reorganisation and I've absorbed the people and talent function in DNI, as well under my wing, which mean for me is a it is a change. It's something I'm incredibly passionate about because the people aspect I've always really enjoyed in my job, and I kept being a human, as well as a lawyer. If I'm at pains I think to constantly tell people I'm really human. I'd like to the point where I was like that doth protest too much. Find an aspect where he was like, really deep you have to keep telling me you're human. It must be something wrong with you. But yeah, I'm kind of intrigued and interested in the challenge of it and that could mean I'm putting my stamp on it in a way and an understanding that hopefully I'm kind of value add, or speaking somebody at work about this thing. Never Can't make things or whatnot. It's the impulses, which I also hate. I hate the phrase imposter syndrome, but it is, unfortunately live. And she put a really good way of just saying actually, that what you bring isn't because you're not, that's not your subject matter expertise, you bring a fresh perspective to me. And I think that's important probably across any profession. So yeah, to have that and to seek it. I do care passionately, probably to a fault about everything. I do. Think if there's anyone that ever comes on here and tells you how bad lesson learned is setting boundaries, I want to know and listen to that over and over. Is it anything I have not learned? 

Scott Brown  (30:36)  

That that passion and being your first I think it was your first lesson, being curious and asking it if you don't know the answers yet? Yeah. I'll still get to ask all the questions. Find. Find them as well. Yeah. That's a good skill set of a lawyer. Question. Yeah. Amazing. Well, thank you so much for your time. 

Maryam Ziarati McLoughlin  (30:53)  

Thank you. Thank you for letting me whitter on!

Scott Brown  (30:56)  

great chatting and finding out a bit more about it and good luck with everything that's going on at Paddle and the new expanded role. 

Maryam Ziarati McLoughlin  (31:02)  

Thank you very much. 

Scott Brown  (31:02)  

Yeah. Thank you for listening. To hear more lessons. We've got a fabulous back catalogue of guests from series one to four, head over to heriotbrown.com/podcast, and we'll see you next time.