Transitioning Into The Clean Energy Sector as a General Counsel with Robin Carvell-Spedding

On this weeks show, I am joined by Robin Carvell-Spedding, General Counsel at Protium, a company at the forefront of the energy transition, focusing on producing green hydrogen. Robin's career has spanned over a decade in various in-house roles within the oil and gas sector, working on international projects across South America, Africa, the Middle East, and Asia.
 
From carrying a massive flat-screen TV down five flights of stairs with his landlord, Michael Laudrup, in Copenhagen, to navigating complex legal landscapes in numerous countries, Robin's international experiences are both unique and insightful.
 
In the episode, Robin stresses the importance of thoroughly understanding any role or company before committing, sharing personal stories about the consequences of not doing enough upfront research.
 
Emphasising the value of seizing opportunities, Robin discusses how taking calculated risks has significantly benefited his career, especially in his international moves.
 
Hope you enjoy!!

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Hi, and welcome to another episode of Lessons I Learned in Law The Podcast with me, Scott Brown, founder of Heriot Browne In House Legal Recruitment. Since 2020, I've been interviewing the leading voices in the legal profession to hear their story on how they've made it to the top of their game. Each guest neatly boils down their wisdom into their top three lessons that they've learned in their careers to share with us.

In season six, we've gone a bit international and I'll be speaking with chief legal officers and general counsels as well as others from across the legal industry. We'll be sharing their insights into what's happening in their legal functions and how they're navigating the biggest challenges that they're facing in the profession.

As always, I'll be trying to have open and honest conversations as I look to get under the skin on how they've built their careers and they continue to build best in class legal teams. I'll be bringing you these conversations every Thursday, streaming on LinkedIn live [00:01:00] at 12pm GMT. And they'll be available across multiple platforms, so stay tuned.

On this week's show, I was joined by Robin CarvelL-Spedding who is only very recently been appointed as General Counsel for PROTIUM Which is a green hydrogen business and he's made a, he's made a switch, which you'll hear a lot more about. Thank you, Robin, for for joining us today so fresh into that new role.

I've known Robin for a number of years, and he, he's a, He's actively involved in our community. He's been to our charity events and spoken at those. Someone I know really well, but it's great to sit down and and pick out his the highlights of his career today and the lessons that he's learned and hear a little bit more about that and share that with you.

Robin started out as a [00:02:00] lawyer at Herbert Smith Freehills but his career's taking him in house via some very interesting international routes. He spent some time in Jakarta, in Hong Kong, and in Copenhagen, so really well travelled, and, A lot of that has shaped his career and the reasons why he's chosen certain avenues in his career post having those experiences.

Some really great international insights that Robin shares. To make the switch from. oil and gas into the clean energy space or the energy transition space, which doesn't sound a million miles apart, but it's a super competitive switch for people to make particularly at the senior level.

So I'm delighted that Robin's made that switch. It's not been a linear road. And we hear more about how he's worked with a coach to help him define what was important when he's been looking at making that move. Loads in there for everyone, whether you're in private practice, you're in house, you don't feel quite on the right path, then some [00:03:00] reassuring words from Robin, and I hope you enjoy.

Hi Robin welcome, welcome to the show, welcome to Lessons I Learned in Law. Thanks very much Scott, delighted to be here. Great to have you and look forward to our discussion. I've given a, I've given a brief introduction as, as good as I can to your background and position, but.

Always like to start with a bit of a bird's eye view of where you're at today, and then we'll dig into some of the stuff that got you there as well. So if you could briefly introduce yourself, please. Absolutely. Thank you. So as very recently joined a company called Prochium at the general council.

Proteum are a green hydrogen company, and that means that the green element of it is that they develop and produce hydrogen projects currently just in this country or they're looking to expand into Europe and possibly beyond but they do that using only renewable electricity. So it's very new both technology or hygiene, relatively speaking, and obviously my sort of my role and experience of it the past three or four weeks, but fantastic so far.

Really keen. I've been keen, as to get into sort of [00:04:00] the clean energy and you try and get inside of it. It's a little while. So yeah, it's nice to be here and tell you a bit more about the sort of journey that got me here as we go along. Brilliant. And how many weeks in or a month, nearly a month.

I'm already taking a holiday next week. I'm not sure if that's a done thing. I think I feel like it's been quite a full on month. I did a week off, but it's half term had it pre-booked and they're very kindly letting me go. Brilliant. But yeah, I've been a month built and the good news is linking into some of the things I'm sure touched upon that, that it was quite a long lead time to get me here where it's through the process.

But actually that was a real positive because actually means I, it's been a full on months, but I felt that I've hit the ground running far more smoothly and quickly than I might have done otherwise, certainly than I've done in previous roles. As a result of that sort of due diligence.

Time that I had getting to know the company and vice versa before I started. Yeah, I'm straight into the bigger things and week off next week and then back to a fundraiser over the summer and beyond, hopefully. Brilliant. Sounds loads of exciting stuff going on. What's happening?

What's the plan for, what's the half term plans? We've for once made plans early enough because usually we're scrambling around last minute trying to work out [00:05:00] who's going to take what time off and what we're going to do for childcare. But we're just going to head to Portugal actually this time around which should be very nice in a summer, a bit different country.

So yeah, a bit of sun of the rainy, rainy London this week. Maybe a bit of sleep. You never know the kids allow and yeah, it should be good. Yeah, very good. Nice. We're yeah we're homebound with with the little one, but But yeah all good. Some stuff over the summer.

Hopefully friends coming to visit as well for for next week. So make the most of max being, not having to buy a, an airline seat from just yet a couple of years. Whilst you can cause the holiday costs are only getting off exponentially. Sorry. Yeah, absolutely. It's not a, yeah.

Whether it's an airline flight or a car. A car to hire three, three kids is gonna be a game changer. Or a hotel room. They could get the things designed for having a garage. We're going to two kids for a reason, but anyway, focus on the positive, focus on the positive. Green hydrogen, you mentioned there, what's other for those that don't know, including myself the rest of the more traditional [00:06:00] hydrogen industry around that, what does that, what does it look like?

I knew you were going to ask me that there's a range of different colors that are applied. Hydrogen. I obviously know, I know currently green blue is perhaps the other most obvious one. And that is where the hydrogen is produced through electrolysis with electricity passing through the water that hydrogen from the oxygen, but that is done from power that does not come from clean renewable sources.

It could be from, again, by power station for instance. and therefore there are carbon emissions associated with that power that is used to produce the hydrogen. And in order to, for hydrogen to be the pure sort of clean fuel source part of the energy transition that we want it to be to net zero, you obviously then have to do something with the carbon that is produced by hydrogen.

from the power that is used to produce the hydrogen. And that's where a blue hydrogen project will have not only the hydrogen production part, it will have, will need to have some form of carbon capture and storage associated with it. So you'll see blue hydrogen having [00:07:00] CCS carbon capture storage associated with it because they've got to do something with the carbon that is produced throughout that process.

There's then actually a whole, I went, Go into detail. Because I haven't got a list in front of me, but raised by the colors gray and others brown, I think as well. But the interesting thing is like any label or moniker, it can be that they're designed to try and show how carbon intensive or otherwise it is to produce that hydrogen, that molecule, the hydrogen.

But actually that can be a bit misleading. The green is clearly nice because it gives that element or raw, that kind of clear impression of it coming from a clean energy source which produces a hydrogen in the first place. But they can, they can slightly cover a multitude of other things when it comes to, carbon emissions along the supply chain and production chain as you like.

So yeah I'm sure I'll be getting my head all around that. But I think clearly we as Protima would say this is an advocate for them, but believe that, For companies in particular and governments, countries that want to start moving as quickly as we need to more towards net zero targets [00:08:00] and the future, we need to be looking at green hydrogen and it's, it's still.

Maybe it feels like a relatively new technology. They need a renewable power source relatively near you to do that. But we are deliberately going in sort of small scale, trying to prove up technology quickly almost on a slightly sort of modular basis so that then we can then scale it up subsequently rather than going, too big too soon.

And it does away with the need to then work out what to do with that carbon that's produced from the power production itself. Yeah, So yeah hopefully that gives you some sort of indication of some of the technology but I need to ask more of my questions or do you just want to come on to my lessons land around of my colleagues here to really fully understand all of that.

All the technical stuff. Wow. Yeah. Oh, good. Okay. So we'll jump in. We'll start with we'll start with lesson one. Robin, if you could share that. Of course. Yeah. I've just touched upon it. It's, Do your due diligence, which it maybe sounds like a slightly obvious or boring thing for a lawyer to say, but it's something that I've learned both from making mistakes in my career that I've [00:09:00] made in terms of decisions I made in my career path, but also from some positive experiences.

And when I say due diligence, really interrogate any particular move or decision that you might be looking to make. It could be a move within your current law firm or organization, if you're in house. It could be a a move, to jump ship, to go from private practice to in house.

It could be a move to different law firm. It could be a move abroad, for instance, again, in whichever particular role that you're in. Yeah. But I think sometimes on paper, these things can look fantastic and you can be, wowed by the numbers, by the pay, by the international aspect, by the move abroad by the move in house, et cetera, and all the sort of stereotypes that kind of, bound around all those different moves, particularly in house, PARTICULARLY in my experience.

Yeah. But unless you really sit down at an early stage as part of that decision making process and interrogate what's this move going to entail for me? What's, what does the job entail? How is it going to help me grow PERSONALLYy How does that role, that organization, that firm fit with my own culture and values?

What does success look like for me in that [00:10:00] role? And it's one reason why I picked this particular one, particularly up front was because I look back in particular my time at private practice, I was born and bred a Harvard Smith, as I say as a trainee, so we did them, senior associate before I then left to go in house.

And looking back at the time, of course, I didn't realize it when I joined, but if you'd ask me the trainee, do you want to be a partner? Absolutely. Yes. Do you know that entails? Do you really know what that entails? What does that mean? What does it mean to get that? What does it mean when you get that?

Do you want to do that? I probably would have asked you that naively, but actually, at the time, right now I realize. I didn't probably really know what I was after and what that would have entailed. Did I, did I said that I really wanted and if I did want it what my, my life looked as a result of my working life, my career.

That's partly the nature of the beast, highlighting my age, 20 years ago. So as it was, I was a milk crowned and, Maybe, and there was perhaps a certain apathy to the lawful unemployment processes and certainly perhaps partnership in those areas, which I think has improved.

But I think the [00:11:00] resources. Do you think the resources were there or are there, to get under the skin of that and understand it for people? Were they there? I don't know. I don't think so, to be honest. I don't think there were that many. I'm sure there would have been if I'd looked harder and I could have asked the questions.

But but it's a young, keen, want to be trainee. I said it almost seemed too good to be true. I think slightly tied. It's definitely, I've had a fantastic experience and I'm very pleased I went there. I did, there was a, there was, it wasn't completely slapdash in the sense that I was a bit of a wannabe barrister previously for various reasons I went, I avoided that route or decided not to go down that route and went to Herbie's partly because they were very good to me in the sort of recruitment process and better than other firms, I must admit, I was a non law student as well and again at the time I think some firms perhaps didn't look to you as much as they did the law graduates, but I hope it's obviously haven't had and still have a fantastic speech practice.

I want to be a disputes lawyer because it was an element of thinking about it and so on. But in terms of then looking ahead and planning and not as much planning, but I'm standing [00:12:00] again, where was I going with this a little bit rather than just getting stuck into the day to day aspects of it.

For, then looking up and realizing you're a sort of a mid senior level associate and decision had to be made. I think your other question, all the resources, and I believe they are, I definitely know. Not specifically legal firms, agencies or consultants, but I think, that obviously the internet has come on since I've grown up and got old.

And, I think there's definitely people and resources and things out there that can help people, I think, in that, and I think the networking aspect to it, again, whether you are looking to go even start of your career, middle of Change programs go in house, et cetera. I think that networking aspect has grown too.

Again, whether it's remote or indeed in person, I think the the communities have cropped up and allowed people to, again, speak to others who are doing it. There's far greater opportunities for that than there were in my time, certainly in private practice. Yeah. I said, flipping it forward to now, how many years on to my arrival approach him.

It's been a tool of not don't mind saying at least probably a six, nine month conversation and process [00:13:00] with him for various reasons. I won't go into all the details, but conversely, again, that, that allowed me to, and even before that I was actually really interrogating myself, including with some coaching help.

So I'm a big fan of, coaching of various descriptions. Actually to run a bit of a career coach when I was really a bit stuck in, in, in trying to make that change from oil and gas to renewables or clean energy in house roles. And that helped. How did you identify, how did you identify a coach that you wanted to work with?

Again, as you're asking questions of people, have they come across one? I particularly wanted. Somebody who was didn't necessarily have to be legal focus. In fact, my coach wasn't, but I wanted somebody who was used to helping people make a change, not just going on to the same sort of role, same sort of sector.

So sectoral change or again, role change in this, but as my coach Steven was, he had good experience with that. He's actually primarily came from a financial services background. But what are you going to help me do was really do my due diligence almost on myself first interrogate myself as to what do I actually want here?

[00:14:00] Yeah, I want to energy, but I want to stay at home, I want to GC but fine. What else around that you want to need in your work and in your life? to make that happen. To get there. And then when you get there is, to make sure that it's what you actually want. So we ended up drawing up a scorecard to a weighted criteria, all got a little bit technical, but it's actually a fantastic tool that I returned to.

I used a lot talking to companies that I was and then including the pro gym. And then when I did the scoring as against particularly my then current situation see where come out. Cause when you're putting it down on paper and you're putting a score against it, numbers almost don't lie.

So again, you then realize that actually it's not all about salary or it's not all about, clean energy company and it's going to be a fantastic place to work just because it's doing nice, clean, green things for the planet to be put it bluntly. Protein is one of those things I hate to add from my current experience.

So I think, yeah, having that somebody talk me through what it takes To make that change and how to make sure you are making it for the right reason, that it'll give you what you want, was key to me and really helped me in that, that long process and conversations with pro him, which then [00:15:00] meant that when I when I took the plunge in January and resigned and signed up to approach him this year had a huge amount of confidence that I was actually doing the right thing.

And that is, that's what I wanted. And what I guess even doing that due diligence and asking some of the questions and exposing yourself to what might someone think of me or say in response to these questions, how has that changed since I guess your first, your earlier career moves, like your process for doing that due diligence, and has that been shaped by bad experiences where you haven't done due diligence?

Yeah. Yes. To answer your last question. First, I think it has been, I think you have to hold up a bit of a mirror to yourself. I've also had more sort of personal coaching as well over the past few years which is not dissimilar because it ties into again, to, to how you want to live your life.

A risk sound a bit, try it. What sort of person do you want? What sort of person are you? And that leads into what job do you want to do and what's your career path? So on often sometimes [00:16:00] different from what you thought. I know if you get somebody who. Holds up that mirror for you a little bit.

Somebody who's truly independent, objective and will be honest with you and ask you the hard questions and force yourself to ask hard questions of yourself. I think it could be hugely helpful. You sometimes have to go to places where you might not want to go in terms of admitting things about yourself you didn't want to or feeling very deep here, Scott.

If I start crying, then I apologize. But I need a virtual hug. Bye, bye. Thanks so much. But again, the benefits of that are huge. I think I was probably too young and naive, to be brutally honest, when I started out to do that. I think, again, yeah, you want to have a university and to land a great sort of city law firm training contract.

You think you're the B's, whatever. Yeah, whatever. I don't really think about that sort of stuff. I was almost too good. I was very lucky. But I think then actually then flipping as to your other question around, some of my perhaps more difficult negative Yeah, sometimes negative experiences, that's more have throughout our careers.

Have made me realize that, perhaps if I, have I not made the [00:17:00] move when I should have done, have I been a bit too comfortable not having been resistant to change or scared of change? He'd be like without, Putting that mirror aside, not being prepared to pick it up. And this was again, pre coaching actually.

Even though perhaps deep down, I knew that I wasn't fully happy where it was. It wasn't giving me what I wanted. And to be fair, it was in other respects, some of the black going into names and details. It was giving me what I wanted to need on the family side of things. So there were looking back huge benefits which I wouldn't, which I wouldn't change.

And it's ultimately led to the right place. But yeah it's Yeah, using those looking back and using those experiences negative as well as positive. I think a key to learn, right? Yeah, I think that's good. I think that's a good underlying bit of advice as well. Not to be too hard on yourself for what you might view as a mistake now because you don't you always don't know what you don't know.

And yeah, it is. There's a confidence I think, as you. by the sounds of it when you grow in your career that just to be confident in knowing what you want [00:18:00] and being able to, yeah, being able to be confident in that and being able to know that I might miss out on something because I'm, I've got my North Star, I know what I'm looking for.

And it might not be for everyone. That might be looking to hire. So that's that that, that can sometimes not the end result might not be the one you were wishing for. But as long as you're true to yourself, I think that's a good a good point. When did you first think I want to be a lawyer?

I want to be in the legal profession because you said the barrister had been something you had explored previously. Do you remember when? Yeah. Good question. I think actually funny enough, I remember now aged 11 or 12 at school doing a project on what you want to be when you grow up or the equivalent.

And I, and it was involved, we had to go out and interview, talk about it, not just, write it down. And I spoke to a then school friends father who was a barrister. I remember, and I remember I'm sure I've still got probably mom's proudly kept the project work somewhere.

I should go back and look [00:19:00] at it. But I remember, having a good old sort of fashioned dictaphone recording questions of, and I think going to the local county court, even magistrates courts And so I probably at about that stage, I don't, I know, I can't remember what pushed me towards it.

And other than that my, my old man's a medic and I knew that I wasn't cut out to be a medic. But I've always enjoyed, talking eating, writing, debate, discussion. That was my sort of, forte going through school, which I enjoyed. So I guess. The law was perhaps a natural that was a natural lead in into the law.

I've probably had a slightly overzealous, Belief in right and wrong at that age is about, putting the bad guy behind bars and hence the barristery to a certain extent probably out by, American TV dramas and everything else, But it led from there.

I always knew one of the best bits of advice I then had at my later school was to not do a law degree. They may be, I don't know, them and they say, if you're not, if you're not a hundred percent certain, don't do a law degree, go do something else, which you'd enjoy. I loved history. I did history.

Which again, I'm delighted to that choice. It was a longer route then into [00:20:00] law, particularly up in Scotland, four year degree, two year training contract, et cetera with sort of the little break in between before starting the training contract. But again, all fantastic experiences along the way.

And I'm glad I had that, again, that lead into it rather than three years law. There's nothing wrong with that. But for me, it was the right decision. But yeah, always had that thread throughout my teens of looking at the law, wanting to do it, thinking of the barrister route. Various experiences along the way, then that said.

Moved me away from that, from the bar side of things, more to, to, to the schluster side of things, which again, I'm glad about. Yeah, it's been the opposite. I got the opposite advice at school. I got from a history teacher. Don't go and study history unless you want to be a history teacher.

Go and study law. Yeah interesting. Maybe we should have stopped teaching. And in a funny way, I now enjoy history books far more than I did, did at school, at uni. 'cause they were, they're a break from work now, whereas at the time they were work. So I devour a history book and my kids allow to, it's interesting the advice you get along way and how it does shape your, how it does.

Yeah. It can have a quite a dramatic impact when a career, when we're another right to the outset. Absolutely. But linking into what we're talking about, [00:21:00] guess again. And if you, as long as you then know that you can change to reverse, to change tact. Again, it can sound easy to say, but for me, no decision is ultimately irreversible, including, you guys from abroad, you could immediately come back pretty easily.

I know there are logistics and other things to think about clearly but I think it's good. I think we recognize that. Yeah. So I think the impact Yeah. Yeah. It's a big big job. Cool. We'll move on to lesson two, and I've gotten what it was. That's right. Make the jump, take the risk.

This is, and again, there's a bit of a thread, maybe slightly subconsciously, through, through my three lessons, you'll see about asking questions, being curious. This is almost a sort of natural follow on from the due diligence point as well as you've done your due diligence about a particular move, whatever that might be, but you still then got a decision to make, right?

Do I maintain the status quo or do I move, do I take, do I make the jump? I think it's been, it's said that, ad infinitum that us lawyers are naturally or trained to be risk averse. Can be a good thing. [00:22:00] But I think, sometimes, when it comes to career moves, and personal moves, I think, sometimes trying to look at things from a different perspective, seeing that risk perhaps as an opportunity, it's not always easy.

But I think there are other sides to that risk coin, if you like. And again, if you're confident that you've interrogated yourself and all the right people in terms of what that move will bring you and it being the right one, then I would always advocate doing it. Then I've been lucky enough with the opportunities that have come my way to, to make some of those at times, perhaps, quite drastic moves.

I went to Indonesia with Herbert Smith as a nine month qualified associate ended up being there for 18 months. Probably one of the best experiences of my life.

But genuinely, How would that come around? It all ties in actually. As a trainees, some of these. Because city firms, you were lucky enough to get the opportunity to go abroad, part of your training contract, which I did to Hong Kong. That's partly because he didn't want to go to Hong Kong as a trainee, but also to do energy, do more pure energy work.

So I was already getting interested in that [00:23:00] side of things. And I decided at that point already on the back of some very useful advice from partners at Herman Smith about not going down the dispute street with them. So that's, yeah, the energy corporate and Hong Kong side of things. I did six months in Hong Kong, came back, qualified into the corporate energy group at Humber Beads and was having a beer with one of the partners in very early stages of a junior associate summer, just qualified, chatting about AG, spend a lot of time in Asia, saying, do you enjoy it?

Yes. Would you go back again? Of course, get another beer and go. And the next morning he came in knocking on the door and said, how do you fancy going to Jakarta? And I probably had to look up on the map, I was thinking, okay that's not quite what I envisaged happening.

But again, fast forward talking about due diligence and they were good to me. They sent me out on a two, two week look see in January. So again, this is six, six months after qualification with, I think genuinely no obligation is that, yeah. So go and have a look, go and do some work there, meet the people that you would think.

And actually I try not to be overawed by the lifestyle and everything else out there. But within, before I came back, much to my mom's irritation, [00:24:00] I've made a decision. to go. So it didn't take long. I think, that, but that again, it's part of just, making sure that it, that I was happy to be.

And I always knew they said, look, we're again with Herbie support to their credit that I could come back. It wasn't going to work out. No point in them keeping me over there. It wasn't working but it did. It was, yeah, it was always easy. I must admit, again, I was out there on my own without any family or support, personal support network but the people over there were fantastic.

I met some other, it got me out over that time. This was the, A slight London city bubble you could be in as a trainee, junior associate, I met a complete different range of people. As I'm sure you're yourself being scouted as an expat as well in different countries, which just adds an extra richness and interest to life overall, including on the professional side of things.

And then a great range of work, which I never would have touched as a junior, very junior associate back in London. But I think. Yeah, was that viewed as a permanent, was that a permanent move or was it, was that a move, was that a, did it have a time cap on it? No, not permanent, it didn't, neither permanent nor time cap.

I think maybe because I think again they saw that as perhaps taking a [00:25:00] bit of a risk if you like. I think it was a scene of the hardship posting a little bit and nobody else. I didn't particularly want to do it, much to my benefit, because I had said I had the most amazing experience.

It came to it ran its natural course after 18 months. My visa was up for renewal. So I could have obviously spent the time and effort, or they could have done to renew it. But I felt that, again, for career and personal reasons, that was the right time for me to then come back. So it ended up being about 18 months, which was a great period of time.

And actually just reminded me there was another opportunity then, so I wouldn't have done Indonesia if I hadn't done Hong Kong. I don't think they, perhaps, they asked me to go to Australia when they're just about to merge with Beehills 2012. That, again, was I was much more confident.

I was already started looking out if it happened. Of course, I couldn't tell them that, but that was, I knew a bit more of a permanent position. Probably not much to get back at least that I'd be telling those talk of partnership and so on. But I was quite calm, quite quickly that I just wasn't the right move.

Would I, a few years prior to that, they offered me that proposition and perhaps we jumped to it for the wrong reasons. So all these experiences helped me be much more sure in my ability to know whether any [00:26:00] particular move is going to be. Like me again, based on sort of property units and so on, but the risk of Indonesia was absolutely worth it.

Despite instilling me with a bigger sphere of earthquakes that you could ever imagine given some of the geological experiences I had over there. Yeah. But no again, yeah. Sorry. No, it's a different experience from London. You learn about the tube and downsides living in London.

But yeah, I took me experiences, big earthquakes and so on, which again, you just never would ever anticipate and never would have realized how scary they can be. So it's a different life, but overall a wonderful experience. Yeah. Nice. It sounds awesome. But what was the ex pat as well, I know that bedding and periods I've moved to the Netherlands, which is hardly Hardly a shift from the UK there's certain differences.

What's what's it like that, that is totally different culture, totally different setup of lifestyle, I would expect. How does that first month look? Good [00:27:00] question. I think a bit like, again, this seems concerned, easy to say, but I think that, like any stereotypes and truisms are often true.

I think you just have to throw yourself into it. You don't have to. I think if you don't, you miss out on huge opportunities. I think I could have, it's any, I can, you can sit in your, Like up a little bit, you can carry on doing almost, I'm trying to live your life where you perhaps did in your previous existence, previous city and location, et cetera.

But clearly any movie, even if it's to, Northern Europe, it's different. You've got a different culture, different languages, different relatively speaking, a completely different way of life. And so it's the same that I found with my professional movies, including Approach Him. I think you just have to take yourself out of your comfort zone talk to people, communicate, ask questions, be curious not judgmental.

I'm getting ahead of my third lesson. Accept me my mate. You might be scared, you might make mistakes, you might be nervous, I'm sure. And those are all very natural feelings, and I certainly was. I think once you do, if you do that, and if you do that as much as you possibly can, it was only going to smooth your sort of personal and professional path into [00:28:00] that new experience.

As opposed to sitting back and not doing that, it's only going to make it harder. So not always easy but hugely worth the effort. Yeah. And how long did you end up out there spending 18 months 18 months in total. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I said it, but personal, probably personal reasons at the time come back, but I made life on friends or there are friends that they're still in touch with getting home.

I wouldn't plan a complete different walks of life. So it's not only enriched me personally, but it's enriched me personally as well. Yeah. And then Your next move in house, I know about that, but tell us about that. Yeah, again, there's a bit of a link in a sense. I said I wouldn't have done Indonesia if I hadn't done Hong Kong.

I wouldn't have done Denmark if I hadn't done Indonesia. As a nice huger Northern, European or Dutch Scandi experience that you're not going through to a certain extent. Very different from Indonesia, but it's still, in terms of I guess making that jump, taking the risk just to carry on that second lesson theme I wouldn't have done if I hadn't known that it was [00:29:00] doable.

But yes, it's not always easy. There are logistical fafts, there's tax consideration, all sorts of things like that, but they're all worth the effort. And if they're not, if it doesn't work out again, You can come back, you can make the shift again, not always easy, but it's doable and people do it. And I think, accepting that suddenly takes a bit of a weight off the shoulders and go I might as well just try.

Yeah, there's an added she'll probably kill me for saying this, but a personal element to it for me with that Danish move. This was in 2013. I'd done a kinds of common with her beats. And so I knew that, and that again, led me to look in house in a good way, not with complete roast into spectacles.

I knew there were downsides to it as well. But. I just got together with my now wife, Rachel, a few months ago, it was in my head to make the move. And then the Musk opportunity came up, they interviewed me and made me the offer pretty much straight away. So when I came back from the, from that trip to Denmark Rachel said, I said, They've made you the offer, haven't you?

I said, yeah. And they said, you're going to go on. He said, I've only known you for a couple of months, but there you go. So there was [00:30:00] in a way it added extra element of personal risk to it. But in a funny way given our amazing Rachel is it made it almost easier for me to do it. I knew again, that if a Jeff liked the relationship or whatever, that would come back and she was hugely supportive in that move and we had an amazing two years over there, even actually thought as you guys are doing about making our life better a little bit, perhaps something down.

In that very nice sort of Scandinavian way. But again, actually tied in a lot of this two years or two, it was just two years today, actually that I then came back as much for professional reasons. Again, I had to realize that. As positive as it all was, it wasn't actually, with hindsight, perhaps what I wanted.

I was a bit of a link there to it being Danish and that, I think they viewed you as a bit of a long term contractor because there were certain tax federations that meant a lot of expats left after about five years. So I think they, they often felt like that's probably going to be here for five years and I'll be off again, which wasn't necessarily the case.

So I, I felt perhaps the development, the ability to develop and grow there was. Perhaps a bit more limited than I realized. Amazing experience overall. But again, I wasn't scared to then [00:31:00] about a year, 18 months, start looking and then we're also getting married. So that was a bit of a personal push call back to two and one in the same city under one roof.

But but yeah again, not being fantastic friends, but not being afraid to make that move back when it was no longer working for us and me professionally. Yeah. Amazing to see. How did you, how did it, did that come around? So they were a client that you were seconded to and then permanent or was it some no.

Hadn't done, no, I hadn't done a secondment with them. I did it with another energy, big energy company back here. Okay. Which again though, was It did, it was, that was quite instrumental in terms of pulling my criteria, what I was looking at because I was stuck in a, and the clients coming back in the uk, one of Herbie's clients it was your old British, British Gas group, bg great company again, really loved it, but they were pretty huge team for about.

40 plus lawyers jacked in London within other spread around the globe, even they will then say that the legal team was almost too large. And I was doing, I was in the corporate M& A section of their in house team there. And I remember the very good head of that team at the time saying it taken about five years to really get [00:32:00] to know the business.

I think it was understood that he was just channeled in doing M& A corporate work for them and not really touching the projects and everything else that they were working on. And so that, that was one of the things I was quite focused on in terms of saying, I'm not going to become too specialized too soon in my in house career.

So I had those sorts of criteria forming in my head as well. I was looking for most came through a recruiter and I wasn't looking for a move abroad. Not least because I just met Rachel. But again, having done it, it's at what mask was offering or mask oils or if you want to get part of the mass group what they were offering in terms of a much more legal team, a fascinating business with projects across the globe, but different stages of development.

And I was one of four international lawyers in the international team working those projects as both the Danish colleagues who have opted folks from the Danish project. It was all bid on a gas, but it was general going to be a huge overview of different projects, different parts of the world at different stages of development.

And again, working in a small collegiate team rather than a sort of much larger setup. So there's yeah, the [00:33:00] recruiter It was great and leading me to it. And then I went through various interviews and it may be a help, but they offered me the job when I was sitting at the Carlsberg bar in Copenhagen airport, which has always got fond memories as a result.

I'd only had one at the time. Carlsberg did job offers. Exactly. Exactly. But no, it was it felt right again at the time, having done, having yeah. Haven't done as much due diligence and time and made the jump. And there was if Carlsberg made landlords as well, the story, I remember you telling me, I wondered how you're going to shoehorn that in.

Yeah, so actually this is Robin's interesting facts about himself, but yeah, I did struggle. I was stretching my head and this sort of came down as number three, but. It's, I find it pretty interesting. I think I read again, thinking about, I'm going to say due diligence too much in this podcast, but my landlord in Denmark was Michael Mikkel Laudrup.

And for those who don't know, and I certainly didn't much at the time because I'm not a huge football follower, but he was almost the sort of the Danish David Beckham. Danish David Beckham of the [00:34:00] 1990s, along with his brother, key players. We were arguing earlier as to whether Mikkel 92 Euro Championship winning team.

But you look up YouTube clips and he was absolutely fantastic player. Went and played, abroad in Spain and elsewhere. And then he was coaching in Swansea over here after being also retired from playing into his coaching career. I certainly aware of him from that. And then when I I knew that the landlord's daughter was in the previous tenant in a flat before I moved in or pre occupy there.

And I kept on seeing posts with loud drop name on it or a, a loud drop on it. And Swansea football club paraphernalia, but I thought that just makes sense because it's Michael Loudrop coaching Swansea, so all the Danes are going to be following Swansea, right? And I know quite a few Danes follow the premiership.

I didn't know that. I thought nothing of it. And why he and his wife then came to do the checkout where the agent was left, I don't know. I don't know what it's like in the Netherlands, but Denmark you sign up for quite long term leases. There's not, they don't have the same sort of property ownership structure as we do here.

So people are often on long term leases rather than the short ones we have. And so I think there's an expectation of us staying longer and up to date. [00:35:00] Moving out more quickly than I most do. He'd just bought, obviously, with this football money, another flat for his daughter at the time, apparently. But anyway, he came along, and I was starting to put the jigsaw pieces together.

We're looking at him, he's very tan, because he'd just been coaching in guitar at the time. I'm very delightful, along with his wife, he was talking about that time in the UK, but without giving away many details. My husband's brother playing in Scotland, working in Scotland, Brian Louder up into Rangers as quite a while.

So anyway, it was only after he left, I turned to Rachel and said, I'm pretty sure quite a famous Danish footballer. And so it turns out with Michael Louder, he then came back and I ended up quite a nerve wracking experience of carrying his massive flat screen TV down five flights of stairs of that apartment block.

So when they left the ground into his massive Range Rover. Just worried I was going to drop it or something. And my biggest regret is not asking for an autograph. I wimped out. Anyway, so yes, that's my, my, my football Danish, my Danish football claim to fame. Yeah, it was part of the random experiences you have when you go abroad.

Yeah. Yeah. Go guy. We we rented our last place in [00:36:00] London from a member of Eternal the girl band from the 90s. You don't have to tell me who Eternal are, Scott, come on. Yeah, I think Michael Lowdre will win for me, but yeah lovely lady. Yeah, but How did we get onto that?

I'm not sure how we got into Eternal and Landlord's, but like I don't know what we got there. Cool. So we'll move on to, we'll move on to lesson three. Yeah. Talking actually about football. I don't know whether you Scott have watched Ted Lasso, but I'm channeling slightly my inner Ted Lasso and what went in here.

So lesson number three is be curious, not judgmental. I think there's various, that's what argues to whether what Whitman the poet actually wrote that phrase. But anyway, when I heard it on Ted Lasso it really it resonated me. As I said earlier on, there's a bit of a thread here to all my lessons, my experiences around talking to people, asking questions of yourself, a part of any move, whether before the move during the move, after the move as well to really make, to help me [00:37:00] better there, whatever that move might be, including.

I think tying it back into your, to one's role as an in house lawyer, in particular, we talk about trying to be commercial, getting to know the business, getting under the skin of the business, which is just true and great. But I think sometimes we need to step back and say, what does that really mean and how do we achieve that?

And for me, I'm certainly trying to try to live this approach at the moment. It's being curious. It's, BEING CURIOUS it is asking as many questions of as many people as you possibly can. Then listening, the key is then to listen, make sure you listen BEYOND and then probably almost certainly ask them more questions off that particularly to understand the answers.

You may think that's stupid questions. I preface a lot of what I'm doing approaching them by saying, I apologize, it may be a stupid question. It may be, it may not be. It doesn't really matter, but it's important for me to get to know not only the business, but then you also get into the people as well.

And I think that's key, cause you get to know ways and tick, where it's a shared interest. I think it's only going to not only help integrate you within the business [00:38:00] and hopefully make your non legal colleagues want to work for you that much more. And therefore, on the professional side, I think it'd bring work to you in the right way, bring the risks and issues to you in the right way so they can see what sort of person you are at heart and the fact that you're genuinely invested in the business.

But I think it's also just going to make your life and that much more. Yeah. Enjoyable too. I think the judgmental part of things is it's useful and interesting to explore as well. By that they're not judging, not being judgmental. So you've asked the questions, but you're going to hear a lot in return, a lot of answers, hopefully gathering a lot of information.

Some of it might not make sense. It might be different to what you used to before. I think particularly coming from private practice, there can be a certain, I had to use the word arrogance, but a certain sort of belief in the way things are done or should be done. I think certainly, when I moved in house, it was probably an element of, in house being seen as an easier option, if I can put it that way.

I don't think it's true anymore, if it wasn't the first but again, not whether you're coming from private practice or whatever, but particularly going in house, not judging What are you hearing? Not judging the way that things are done, where people operate. You said you may not [00:39:00] agree with it. And obviously if they're illegal and compliance issues with it, then raise them and do your job about them.

But just, perhaps work out why that person's doing it that way, what's going on in their life, why they responded to me that way. And it's an intrusive process. I've seen more recently, somebody moving roles is actually on your Emma's fantastic community WhatsApp group talking about, moving the rod.

And the question was other than getting to know the business inside out within the first month what should I do? Any tips for starting a new role? And I actually said, There are lots of these candidates who are chipping in with far better ideas than mine, but I would hesitate to think you can get to know the business within a month.

I actually, it was, they probably didn't mean that, they're talking generally, but it's a, it's an ongoing long term process to ask these questions. Again, it may take months, years, probably, if we can really do that really under the skin. But you're only going to get that by being curious along the way with people and with the business.

And I think that will make you a, to my mind, a better in house lawyer for what the business needs and it'll make your life better, your work go more, that much more enjoyable for you and everybody else. [00:40:00] Yeah. No, I think it's I think it's a very difficult It's almost not a skill, is it?

It's an approach to doing stuff and difficult to feign, I think, to be curious and be there's an authenticity to it as, as well, which is really important to to be genuinely curious. It's but for me, it runs through, as to the extent I'm exposed to success and successful people, but I think it's a key attribute for, it's one of the, I think it's the strongest attribute across.

Across everything, not just lawyers, but for recruiters that do well in our industry, the people that are asking questions, like genuinely interested in the person they're talking to. I think it's standout standards to stand out for that. The where did you, is it something you've someone taught you that along the way or you touched on it, sort of private practice or good question.

I would say no. No, I don't think anybody's. specifically told me that or told me that I think it's come up a bit through sort of [00:41:00] osmosis and that and organically through my experiences. Looking back at where I could have done better, where I could have done that more, perhaps working out why did that not go the way I wanted it to go.

Probably because I was doing what I said you shouldn't do as in the first month of your life. As an example, I sat back too much. I wasn't, I was in my own head, I wasn't asking the questions, I wasn't being curious, even if I wanted to be. I'm not sure I maybe was being a bit too judgmental sitting there going that's true.

I think trying it. That's not how it's done before. Oh, what's that person playing at type thing? I think then thinking about it now, the coaching side of things, picking a more personal coach have had, have been probably again, as much organically quite instrumental in that in terms of teaching me to be curious about myself starting point.

I think we probably forget that I know we're talking again, back into Julian's and everything else. I specifically tried to make that point and I've talked here about, you've got to ask yourself these questions too as you go along, and I think from checking in with this out, see nowadays, how you doing, how am I really [00:42:00] doing, how am I feeling?

And taking that, whether it's through any particular day, any particular moment through to, more regularly, et cetera through to then again, it's just on an ongoing basis, give me what I want. So you've got to. That, that, the coaching has really helped me with that.

And I think that led me to have a greater confidence in knowing what I want to do, how I want to work, where I want to work. And then following on from that greater confidence, being able to then ask those questions exactly that I need to ask. I said, it's an ongoing process. I'm not, I'm clearly not the finished article when it comes to that.

The Curious In House Lawyer, but I hope I'm getting better all the time. Yeah that's great. Do you see with private practice I'm just reflecting on what you're saying, with either juniors or partners, is there a billing by the hour? Like the need to be curious, the need to be curious or the scope to be curious rather than just getting to the point.

And you mentioned earlier being the arrogance or they're delivering advice, right? But they're better advice is going to come if they understand the client. [00:43:00] Do the client want, does the client yourself as an in house lawyer, do you want, how curious do you want your private practice, your law firms to be?

The good question again. And I should maybe just caveat this by saying I'm abused with arrogance. I do not believe that they're all private practice. Those are many are arrogant. There are many arrogant in house lawyers too. Be a title of the podcast. . Yeah. Lessons in lawyers. Don't be arrogant. No, look, I think yes, it's again, you're right.

There could be a sort, almost an inherent tension there. Who I want my, I want all lawyers. I want my team clearly and I, another and other inhouse lawyers. I sit across the table. To be curious to get to know them or make critique and why have they responded that way? What's really driving them?

Et cetera. But yeah, my private, my, my external advisors too, but then I guess, I don't want to, nobody wants to see the bill for 10 hours of just merely asking questions. Yeah. Critique. Yeah. I want you to, I just don't want to pay you to be curious. But yeah. Joking apart. There are ways and means of doing it right.

I [00:44:00] think it's. Whether it's the coffees the more sort of social side of things you'd like it. It comes there. Specifically, I began, I'm making it trying to be clear when I'm talking about doing it, not just from what I'm saying, professional angle, your job, how to be better external private practice lawyer, advise your client to understand that business.

But then on the personal side, understanding whom you're advising, whether it's the in house lawyers, such as me, the business colleagues, who are always on track as well, and understanding what people need to make sense of, and so on, and what they really do and what they really want. So that can be done, it doesn't have to be done, and it's in a working structure as such, it can be social.

And again, iterative though, I think it's the, It can be small conversations. It doesn't have to be, big ticket, five hour long chats about what does your business do, what do you want to get out of it, et cetera, et cetera. It can be more day to day interactions, which probably don't need to cost the earth if anything.

And then which I would be Peter, to get back. I think, I think that would add value to us and therefore their work and that would have been paying again. But yeah. It's an interesting point. I think I go on the [00:45:00] flip side, what you can also see is time slide sort of fishing expedition.

So this is going back to proper legal due diligence rights. They could say, I'm just being curious about grips with your business, but actually hang on a minute. You don't, not in that respect, you don't need to call over every single, you My, my new show of every single contract that we have, which is, play five at the past, quite frankly, that's not the risk to our business.

I need you to, I need your curiosity to be focused in the right way. So I'm slightly contradicting myself, to a certain extent, but I've seen that approach again, a little bit. So I was starting to honor them in private practice and this is the old school approach at the minute point on the, from a business development perspective, being curious about your clients or your prospects.

I think that's there. That's where it happens. Offline type of chat. Yeah, exactly. Awesome. Really enjoyed the conversation, Robin running out of time, but thank you for, thanks for sharing your lessons. Hope you enjoyed the conversation. I've followed the podcast interest, so I'm delighted to finally be allowed to join but thank you for the opportunity.

No, not at all. This series is more, this [00:46:00] series is around there's a real interest in the international piece, obviously, given our expansion timing is really good and I'm delighted that it coincides with your. new role and wish you all the best and with the exciting times to come and the fundraising that you mentioned earlier.

Really cool. I'm delighted for you with that new gig. Thanks so much. It's been great fun talking to you Scott. Thanks for listening to today's show. And I really hope you got some value from it. It's the real reason that I set up the podcast to help you, our audience of in house lawyers, For people within the legal profession who are looking to move in house to learn from others in the industry.

This podcast was brought to you by Heriot Browne in house legal recruitment, which is the business I'm the founder of. And we're a legal recruitment business that is driven by the mission to help lawyers find fulfillment in their legal careers. And this extends well beyond the transactional aspects of finding you new jobs [00:47:00] or finding hires for your team.

We excel in bringing the best people together and the right people together, which is why community has always been at the heart of our business to add real value to our network. So to find more about that and what we're doing, we'd Keep up to date with our community and also to find out about our services.

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