Is Being a Stay-at-Home Mum the Ultimate Act of Rebellion in 2024? With Chair of Mothers at Home Matter, Anne Fennell.

Is Being a Stay-at-Home Mum the Ultimate Act of Rebellion in 2024?

I know I felt like a rebel when I decided to stay home with my kids. Society tells us our worth lies in our paychecks, but I knew there was more to it than that. In this episode, Anne Fennell, chair of Mothers at Home Matter, and I dive deep into the world of stay-at-home parenting. We challenge societal expectations, explore diverse family policies across Europe, and discuss how companies can better support parents returning to the workforce.

From Anne's personal journey as a PTA mum to spearheading community projects, we'll explore how parenting roles can be surprisingly enriching professionally. Join us for a thought-provoking conversation that will leave you questioning the status quo and celebrating the invaluable role of stay-at-home mums in 2024. 

Show Links:

Mothers at Home Matter Website

Follow Mothers at Home Matter on Instagram

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Transcript

Elizabeth Willetts: 0:01

Hey, I'm Elizabeth Willits and I'm obsessed with helping as many women as possible achieve their boldest dreams after kids and helping you to navigate this messy and magical season of life. I'm a working mum with over 17 years of recruitment experience and I'm the founder of the Investing in Women Job Board and Community. In this show, I'm honoured to be chatting with remarkable women redefining our working world across all areas of business. They'll share their secrets on how they've achieved extraordinary success after children, their boundaries and balance, the challenges they've faced and how they've overcome them to define their own versions of success. Shy away from the real talk? No way. Money struggles, growth loss, boundaries and balance we cover it all. Think of this as coffee with your mates, mixed with an inspiring TED talk sprinkled with the career advice you wish you'd really had at school. So grab a cup of coffee or a glass of wine and make sure you cozy and get ready to get inspired and chase your boldest dreams, or just survive Mondays. This is the Work it Like a Mum podcast. This episode is brought to you by Investing in Women. Investing in Women is a job board and recruitment agency helping you find your dream part-time or flexible job with the UK's most family-friendly and forward-thinking employers. Their site can help you find a professional and rewarding job that works for you. They're proud to partner with the UK's most family-friendly employers across a range of professional industries, ready to find your perfect job? Search their website at investinginwomencouk to find your next part-time or flexible job opportunity. Now back to the show.

Elizabeth Willetts: 1:54

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Work it Like a Mum podcast, where we bring to light stories of extraordinary individuals who are redefining the norms. Today I am thrilled to welcome Anne Fennell, a remarkable woman who wears many hats. She's a wife and mother of six and is a passionate advocate for valuing the role of care. She's also the chair of mothers at home matter. Anne's journey is one of dedication, resilience and a deep commitment to ensuring that the choice to care is respected and preserved for future generations. From influencing family policies to her role as president of the European Federation of Parents and Careers at Home, anne's work has had a profound impact on families and caregivers. Join us today as we delve into her inspiring story and explore her insights on societal and political aspects of caregiving.

Elizabeth Willetts: 2:48

Thank you so much, anne, for joining me today. I'm really excited to learn more about mothers at home matter. You've got a really thriving Instagram account, so if people are listening to this their Instagram account, you'll find it really interesting. But I know that you've put something there quite a bit that I find quite interesting. That is quite a radical choice to be a stay at home mother in 2024. Now we're just 2024 and recording it. Why do you say that?

Anne Fennell: 3:13

Because for quite a few years it's been seen as a backward step, as to be at home and seeing a sort of sepia tinted looking back to the past. But many of our moms say, no, no, it's a choice that we want to make. It is a radical choice because it's not the norm. It's the norm now is to go back to work. But I think this is a choice that you're thinking about that actually.

Anne Fennell: 3:34

No, I don't want to do what the world is telling me to do. That it's something that you're doing for yourself, for your children, for your family, and it's going against the norm and it's a difficult step. It's like a step in the dark. Financially it's crazy, as in you know, who'd want to give up an income to do a job that no one sort of values, that it's given no recognition. You know it's a very physical job. There's no one saying well done, you're doing a marvelous job, and that the end of the day doesn't look like you've done very much. There's nothing to sort of. You know there's no recognition of what you're doing, and yet we want to do it and yet there is so much fulfillment in it as well. So that's why it's a radical choice.

Elizabeth Willetts: 4:11

Do you think society and people look down on stay at home moms?

Anne Fennell: 4:16

Yes, I think firstly the confidence has to come within oneself, because I think a lot of people don't even value it. They kind of know it's important. And even myself for a long time, even though, having six, I still felt shy of saying, oh, I'm at home, that's my main role. But I think once you start to value it yourself, then you give off that confidence and then other people value it, because if you give off that confidence then you get that back.

Elizabeth Willetts: 4:39

But generally no, I mean, there's such a drive in the moment we're recording this and there's a big drive, particularly mums, back to work. They've introduced 30 hours for your childcare. I think it's come in just as we've hit the new year for children aged over two, but it's going to be brought in for children babies nine months old. What would you say to, if you were in a room with the government, who are implementing these policies? What would you like to say to them about wanting to stay at home?

Anne Fennell: 5:10

I'd say that there are many, many mums who would like to stay at home and this proposal recognises that families are struggling, that people need to be able to work to afford builds, but we're not taking the step back to see why a family is struggling and why we're not supporting families to make the choice to care as they wish.

Anne Fennell: 5:27

I mean, the drive for this childcare is not really about the children, it's about getting, it's about labour shortages and when you listen to the chancellor, it's about it's good for the economy. When we're looking at what's best for families and what's best for children, that's a completely different question. And if you look at many, many surveys, mothers about 70% of mothers would like to be at home longer and be with their children longer. We're not saying forever. We're not saying no, no, yeah, yeah, but more hours with their children. It's such a precious time, it's such a beautiful time and we don't want to rush people back into the work before either the children are ready or mothers are ready. So I would say let's take a step back, let's see why families are struggling. Let's see how we can support families and how we can give choice to families so that they can make the choice, whether they care or they give it to a grandparents, they give them money to a grandparent or to a childminder or to an external nursery.

Elizabeth Willetts: 6:19

It doesn't have to be just one option, because I was going to say, if you could tweet do you like these policies? You please? They come in or not?

Anne Fennell: 6:29

I mean, I think parents do need an option. I think we're about to spend billions on child care and there are many, many problems with this. Partly we're not paying the nursery workers enough. I think the fact that we don't value what we're doing, that we don't value either raising of children, whether it's at home or in nursery that we don't pay people properly. So what we're going to get are places which are understaffed. There'll probably be a lot of pressure on these nurseries then they're going to have to tick all the boxes. We're taking care of very young children, and children need love and time and patience and nurture. I don't think we're looking at the question of what children need properly. I don't think we're even looking at what parents and families really need either. So I would relook at the whole question. I would start from what do children need? What do families need to be able to support themselves? We need to completely review our tax system and also housing. It's a huge question and there's no easy answers. It is a real problem that people can't afford housing.

Elizabeth Willetts: 7:31

Lwx no, yeah yeah, and then obviously then people need two incomes, whether they love their job or not Sometimes it's not really about that it's just what you need to survive. In terms of them, what? So you sort of said you would prefer it if a family were given money and then they could choose to spend that money. Is that what you would? Lwx.

Anne Fennell: 7:49

Well, that's one option. I think there's two things. One first thing I think people need to be allowed to keep the money they earn. So the way we're taxed is really important. One of the problems of being a single earner is that the more you earn, the more you get taxed. What the tax system doesn't do is look at how many dependents are dependent on that one income. So you get taxed the same whether you're on your own, whether you're a single person or whether you have five dependents. So one of the things would be to look at how we tax families and to allow people to keep more of their own income so that they're not reliant on the state for the welfare or for top ups. So that would be one thing.

Anne Fennell: 8:25

The child benefit obviously needs reform, because at the moment, you start hitting 50,000 and it gets taken away, whereas you can earn up to. These are things that are challenging for single earner families. And then, if you're going to support parent to be able to send, if you're going to put money into childcare, why not have the option that that money could be used to be at home? So you could extend, increase the child benefit or you could increase the tax allowance for children. That's what they do in other countries. So in France you have a tax allowance per child or you could give it as a voucher system so that that money could be used for caring in those early years.

Elizabeth Willetts: 9:04

Yeah, I suppose it is all an economical thing though, because I suppose then they're thinking the government, if they give money to families and then people take time out, they're not actually contributing to the taxes, and then when they eventually, if they decide to go back to work, they may be going in a lot lower because they won't have maintained their career. I suppose it is like wrapped up in it's quite a big picture there. It's wrapped up in.

Anne Fennell: 9:26

That's right. So you're looking at numbers, but I mean, I suppose we're looking at the welfare and the happiness and the mental health of children and also I think you also got to look at. You know, a lot of people are on much lower incomes so they don't necessarily pay a lot of tax back to the Treasury. So, and then what you pay in childcare, does that cover what the tax receipts back to the Treasury are? I don't know that it particularly does. I know that career progressions is one thing, pensions is another, but I suppose we need to have a wider picture and think about what's better for raising children in the long run and for parents as well.

Elizabeth Willetts: 10:02

I mean, it's interesting because we sort of spoke, didn't we, just before that. You know I obviously advocate. You know, if people want to work, that's great. But personally I probably wasn't ready to work, work until my youngest was two, and at that point we're in the pandemic and you know, that point I was probably like going a bit crazy, so crazy being in four walls. But I don't personally and obviously everyone's different I don't think I would have been ready to go about like full time when she was nine months old, I think one of the sad things is that we're putting pressure on mothers and you know, raising a baby and having a baby takes time to relax and to enjoy it.

Anne Fennell: 10:38

If you're thinking, well, I've got to go back in six months, that's your kind of goal, that's at the forefront of your mind, you're kind of thinking, well, I've got to get them off breastfeeding or I've got to start getting them used to a routine or I've got to, and so you're not enjoying it. You can't fully relax into the role of motherhood and I think that's a real shame. I don't think the baby is particularly ready at nine months. They start to have anxiety. Yeah, you've got that separation outside, Not for everyone, Sometimes it's absolutely fine, but it is a well known phenomenon and that sort of happens to about three years does that gradually lessens? But you kind of want to gradually let the child go?

Elizabeth Willetts: 12:19

Which countries do you think have a good model, then? Which countries? Is there any countries in the world where you think, yeah, they seem to have it nailed, they value care. Families seem really settled, women feel they've got a genuine choice team working or staying at home and if they choose to stay at home, that is valued. Is there any countries that you admire?

Anne Fennell: 12:40

Well, I've just taken over the role of president of the Federation for European Parents and Carers, and so I'm just I'm only just really finding out about different countries. I'm sort of touching the surface. So, at the moment, hungary are very supportive of families. They have a mission to kind of increase their birth rate, so I think they have tax allowance per child, but also, once you have four children, you don't pay any tax, I think as a mother, though. So that means when you go back to work, they also have a housing allowance if you're going to have children, but then there is a downside that if you don't have children, you have to pay it back. Okay, yeah, I'll put the professor on you if you can't have children, but there is a housing allowance.

Anne Fennell: 13:17

I know in Germany there's like a home allowance, and in Finland there's a home allowance, but there are also downsides. I know in Germany it's compulsory that you go back to school. I'm not quite sure. When you have to be in school, you can't take care of your own children after a certain age, okay, so you don't have home schooling. Yeah, finland has a home allowance, but I know they're fighting to keep it. There's this constant pressure to. I think they have a home allowance and nursery system. So and in France the tax system is a lot better than here they take account of the whole household income and then it limits her child. So that is better, but they also have. I think people are very happy with the childcare system as well. So I have to. I am sort of binding out more. That's what I know at the moment. Yeah.

Elizabeth Willetts: 13:59

Because the feminists a lot of feminists hailed it as a brilliant thing when women were taxed separately to their husband. I think it was like the early 1990s. I mean, if you've been involved then, but what are your views on that? Would you think it is anti-feminist for the family to be taxed as opposed to individuals?

Anne Fennell: 14:17

There was a lot of reform that was needed in the 1990s. So in a way that it was a necessary thing. But they kind of threw the baby out of the bathwater, as it were. So in 1990, when they introduced independent taxation Nigel Lawson he intended there to be independent taxation with transferable allowances so that if you didn't work you could transfer your unused allowance to your husband and you could be taxed as a household. So there was fairness in that there were allowances for children and with single parents there was an additional person's allowance.

Anne Fennell: 14:47

But unfortunately Margaret Thatcher wasn't very supportive. Those the additional clauses didn't go through and then gradually we got rid of all the allowances. So you've only got independent taxation without any support for families. So we've kind of gone the other way. I think it should be a choice. You can be taxed individually, but if you want to be taxed as a household and as families we are dependent on each other, so it's not unreasonable that we should be taxed. I mean, in a way the principle should be that as a family you should at least have the option of being taxed as a unit and then for you to make your choices as to whether one person works, one person stays at home. Like we said, we are dependent on each other, so that really needs to be reflected in the way we're taxed as a unit, as a household unit.

Elizabeth Willetts: 15:29

Did David Cameron not introduce a regular, wrong way you could transfer your personal allowance?

Anne Fennell: 15:33

But it was so small, it was like only if your income is under, only if you're paying the basic rate of tax, and I think you may get something like 200 pounds back a year. So it's hardly worth paying out the forms. But it is minimal, but it is in there. So it could be increased and I think you know, if we are going to start changing that, we could target tax reform to families with children and maybe children under school age, under four years old, that period which is quite intensive and does really need quite a lot of care, physical care. I mean that we are supporting families at that stage. Yeah, absolutely so if you're going to cut tax, we could target it to families.

Elizabeth Willetts: 16:09

Mm, hmm, I know that you've been asked before. Are you anti feminist? Well, there is a home matter. And what's your response to people Not?

Anne Fennell: 16:16

at all. No, I'm not particularly feminist, but a lot of our members would call themselves maternal feminists, and I think he is really choice and all feminists I think they would say that feminism is about choice, women's choices.

Anne Fennell: 16:29

To be able to make the choice which is right for you as a woman and a very significant part of being a woman is motherhood and so to not be allowed to be a mother in the full sense I mean, obviously, if you're working, you're still a mother but to actually to play that role fully, you know, every day, the day to day, caring, especially when they're babies, that's actually.

Elizabeth Willetts: 16:47

It's actually, you know, anti-feminist to not allow women that choice yeah, I think as well that companies could definitely play a role, because you get a lot of people you know have a career break, spend time with the children before school and then want to go back to work and sometimes they struggle to go back. I think it would be brilliant. I don't understand why companies have loads of grad schemes and take lots of graduates on without a prior experience, but they can't take those people career returners I agree totally and I think I'm on the same pro I don't think you would need overly tweaking for those individuals either and I think you gain many skills and qualities from being at home patients.

Anne Fennell: 17:23

You know firefighting argument, solving all sorts of things, timekeeping I think you do lose a little confidence, but you know, I think if you realise that what you're doing is valuable, then you wouldn't lose that confidence, and if you realise that you gain other skills but a return e-ship, that is a good thing. And also in france, I think, child care is subsidised by companies as well. So I think it's part government subsidy, part employer subsidy and then family subsidy, so it's not all the burden, isn't all on the stage, as it were, but I suppose those who benefit from it, yeah, put into it as well, so that that could be another option and you've done a lot as well, haven't you in the community?

Elizabeth Willetts: 17:59

so you've you know a lot of people. I think that's something as well that maybe the government forgets is that the drive to push people you know back to work or into work, then a lot you know, community groups etc. That rely on volunteers suddenly lose and harder to run.

Anne Fennell: 18:14

So talk us through what you do in the community and it's been quite a long time because I've been a mother now for about 22 years, so lots of things that I was chair of the pta. I got involved in local politics a little bit. I ran a political discussion club. I read, I did, was one of the people who went into schools and helped do reading things like that, that sort of thing just going in generally. We started a fencing club. So when the children were interested in a particular thing, I would sort of get interested in myself, and so we started. They love star wars and they were always using their lightsabers and fighting each other. So I thought, oh, let's see if there's a fencing club and there wasn't one, so we started one in our local church. Yeah, I was involved with the mother and toddler groups. We also started a drama club for teenagers. So when my boys were teenagers we ran, did a couple of shows for teenagers.

Elizabeth Willetts: 19:00

Kovat stopped that, but I will go back to that I wasn't covered, obviously interrupted if you ever been tempted to return to paid work I have done paid work so when when I needed to.

Anne Fennell: 19:11

I was an editor before, so I'm I'm very happy to be paid for some of the working. Life is gets quite full of unpaid work, but we've always had lodgers to help us pay. I mean what? Before we moved I had six boys in a bedroom and a lodger in one bedroom. So you know, you find ways of earning a bit of money or bring it in. It's never I don't miss sort of the work as such. I don't see that as my identity, but I'm very happy yeah, what were you doing before?

Anne Fennell: 19:40

you had children. Yeah, I wasn't editing but it funny enough, I made a decision before that with my husband and when we got, I got married fairly young, I was 23 and he said to me you know, what do you really want to do with your life? I'd kind of wanted to be in tv and I'd kind of wanted to I don't really know and I said I said I'd like to do a bit of acting, I'd like to maybe teach drama, and he said well, why don't? We also had this idea that the community wasn't, was sort of dead and we'd like to be involved somehow. We didn't really know.

Anne Fennell: 20:09

It was a kind of ideal and because he had spent like seven years and he was an architect and he had just he was just starting out and I always knew that I wanted to be home when I had children, yeah, we decided that I would give up my work and then see what happened and it was a bit crazy.

Anne Fennell: 20:23

We didn't have much money and it was a real step in the dark and I thought, well, I, I said, handed in my notice for the publishing company and I thought this is a really crazy thing to do, but it ends up being one of the best things. My boss came back to me, said and we don't really want to lose you, why don't you do part time? Yeah, and he ends up paying me more, which was great. Oh yeah, he did not start time, and then I I did. I was asked to direct some plays for my old school, which I absolutely loved, so I was able to put on some shows. And then I did some drama myself, did a few acts and I got involved in an economics and just started to you don't look at local politics and things like that. So it was actually a sort of opening up of life rather than closing down.

Elizabeth Willetts: 21:06

And then I had children fairly early on as well, so that I do get what you mean I feel, since I've had children I mean I suffered from infertility I would say not myself before having children, actually because I was very closed off became a bit reclusive and actually since having children I come a lot more immersed in the community, found I've made friends. You know my confidence has actually come back when it had gone. But I would say that that sometimes people feel they lose themselves when they become a mother.

Anne Fennell: 21:33

I feel I found myself, but I know that obviously people have different experiences of Well, I definitely, when I gave up my work, I definitely had a period where I could see that lack of confidence because I didn't have anything to say. Well, actually, I, you know, I'm a publisher and I didn't really know what I was or what I was sort of doing. And yeah, it did take time to kind of reestablish who I was and what I was doing. And even when I had one or two children it was it was more what other people thought about me rather than what I felt about myself. As in, I was quite happy and I think the most content I've ever been is with a newborn. I just there's something about, you know, you're absolutely dog-tired, you're tired, you know it's full on, but I was at peace. I think that's the only way I can describe it. It was just happy. So there is this fulfillment which we don't really talk about. It's not something really showy and there's nothing to sort of show for it, but there is a sort of contentment.

Elizabeth Willetts: 22:30

I think there is our society just values, doesn't it? And I'm probably guilty of this being in recruitment. That's that question. You go to a dinner party, or what do you do? And it's one of the first questions we ask people, and it's we do. Then place the judgment, don't we, rightly or wrongly? Or you know, someone might say they're a banker, and then you'd get certain, you know, idea of that type of person in your head might be completely wrong, but I think that we are as a society guilty of that judging people and what they do rather than who they are. So if someone asks you now at a dinner party, what do you do? What do you say to them?

Anne Fennell: 23:00

I thought about this a lot but I probably don't know what I'd say. Raising the next generation, or I'm a taxi driver or a hairdresser, I don't know. Seriously, I think my husband has always been really good on this because he's always told my children New York, your mother does the most important job. She's like nurturing the next generation. So he's always been really great on that question. And the boys, well, apart from them saying I wish you were working because we could have holidays, they kind of value what I do, so that's really nice. I think it's probably for us to be more creative and find better answers to the question, that we don't just shut other people off, because I suppose you know if we start saying you know I'm raising sick, I suppose it gets easier the more you have. I suppose if you say I'm raising six sons, people find that either impressive or crazy. But it made no difference whether it was six or one, you're still raising a child.

Elizabeth Willetts: 23:53

So where do you want to see mothers at home, matty? How would you like the movement to grow? And where you know, in 20th time, what would you like the role of parents and mothers and caregivers to be in society? How would you like it changed?

Anne Fennell: 24:07

I would like to see that option to be a mother and to care for your own children supported. I think we're in real danger of losing that option. That's my greatest fear. Really, I don't want to see that loss for the next generation, for my children, what they're able to do with their lives. I want, I think, families should be in control of their own lives and be able to make the choices that they wish. So that would be my greatest desire that that option is not enough.

Elizabeth Willetts: 24:33

There's quite a stigma, isn't there as well, about stay at home dads, and I know that there's obviously some dads that want to stay at home. I mean, you know, what would you say to them as well? Well, I think it's both.

Anne Fennell: 24:44

I think people sort of think, wow, stay at home dads. This is what some people say. It also feels quite erratic choice, doesn't it? Yeah, some of my best friends are stay at home dads and they're amazing. I think what a child needs is consistency of care, yeah, and whether a mother or father does it, you know, it's great that one of them is prepared to do that. We definitely support stay at home dads. We've chosen to keep the name mothers at home matter because I think the push is to get moms into work and the real drive is that, you know, for moms it's a step backward and we're saying, no, it's not, it's a step forward, it's a radical step. So we've chosen to focus on mothers and because many mothers do it, to be able to look into the problems that mothers face, particularly whether, that's, you know, some mothers have somewhere that they can go.

Elizabeth Willetts: 25:28

That's their sort of support. I know you did a conference, didn't you, before Christmas. What support do you offer stay at home moms and parents?

Anne Fennell: 25:36

We have groups, so we've got about 13 around the country where moms either meet in person or online. They're very what's the word? The individual groups that just sort of get on with it themselves. So they whoever wants to set one up we just provide support and that the idea really is just to be to have local networking and just support a role as mom at home. We have a newsletter which comes out twice a year. We have a Facebook group, a sort of closed group that people Facebook group called. If someone wants to join I think it's just mothers at home matter, but I think you have to request to join, but it's not. It's not, yeah, I think just providing and just within our social media, just saying you're doing a great job and you're not the only one, and there are others out there.

Elizabeth Willetts: 26:18

So yeah, that's how I found you was on Instagram. So is it mothers at home matter? That's right, mothers at home matter, yeah if you want.

Elizabeth Willetts: 26:25

I didn't know if some people have people like you know, dashes and stuff. They're in there in their username. They weren't available. So, yeah, if anyone's interested in connecting with Anne, then please do. We'll put all those links in the show notes. So please join us.

Elizabeth Willetts: 26:39

Yeah, and you know, I guess if anyone wants to set up a local network, this one may be not running in their area. I'm sure you'd be supportive of that, Definitely. Yeah, well, thank you so much for joining me today, For giving me more information about mothers at home matter. I think what you're doing is brilliant and, like you say, it does feel quite a radical choice at the moment, because there's a lot of noise regarding working parents. So it's so nice that you are a voice for parents that want to stay at home too. So thank you so much for everything and thank you for having me. Thank you, Thank you for listening to another episode of the Work it Like A Mom podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please rate, review and subscribe, and don't forget to share the link with a friend. If you're on LinkedIn, please send me a connection request at Elizabeth Willett and let me know your thoughts on this week's episode. You can also follow my recruitment site Investing in Women on LinkedIn, Facebook and Instagram. Until next time, keep on chasing your biggest dream.