Can You Really Have It All? Debunking Career Myths with Rachel Exton

Welcome to this week's "Work It Like a Mum Podcast" episode! If you've ever felt pulled in a million directions — juggling work deadlines, a demanding boss, kids' hobbies and even some 'me-time' then this week's episode is for you. I'm thrilled to chat with Rachel Exton, Vice President of Marketing at Pearson English Language Learning, who became a LinkedIn sensation by getting real and vocalising the challenges and trade-offs of being a working mum.

In This Episode, You’ll Discover:

- The Viral Sensation: Dive into the backstory of Rachel’s LinkedIn post, which captured the hearts of working parents worldwide, and explore why it struck such a chord.

- Personal Brand Power: Gain valuable tips from Rachel on leveraging LinkedIn to build a personal brand that reflects your professional and personal values.

- Marketing in the Digital Age: What does the future hold for marketing professionals? Rachel shares her thoughts on digital trends and the growing role of AI.

- Real Strategies for Real Parents: Learn how Rachel manages demanding work responsibilities while being present for her family, offering you strategies that could revolutionise your daily routines.

-Essential Conversations: Rachel discusses how to negotiate work flexibility effectively, ensuring that your needs are met without sacrificing career growth.

Why This Episode Is a Must-Listen:

- Relatable Content: Whether you're a working parent or someone managing multiple responsibilities, Rachel’s experiences and advice is invaluable.

- Actionable Advice: Rachel offers actionable strategies that can be applied immediately to make your hectic life more manageable.

- Inspiration for Change: Rachel's journey from viral post to advocating for working parents is an inspiration for those wanting to initiate conversations that lead to real change in the workplace.

Tune in to learn how to advocate for your needs, manage your time better, and feel empowered to chase both career aspirations and personal commitments without guilt.

Show Links:

Connect with our guest, Rachel Exton, on LinkedIn

Connect with your host, Elizabeth Willetts on LinkedIn

How to discover your LinkedIn SSI score

Boost your career with Investing in Women's Career Coaching! Get expert CV, interview, and LinkedIn guidance tailored for all career stages. Navigate transitions, discover strengths, and reach goals with our personalised approach. Book now for your dream job! Use 'workitlikeamum' for a 10% discount.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

Hey, I'm Elizabeth Willits and I'm obsessed with helping as many women as possible achieve their boldest dreams after kids and helping you to navigate this messy and magical season of life. I'm a working mom with over 17 years of recruitment experience and I'm the founder of the Investing in Women job board and community. In this show, I'm honored to be chatting with remarkable women redefining our working world across all areas of business. They'll share their secrets on how they've achieved extraordinary success after children, set boundaries and balance, the challenges they faced and how they've overcome them to define their own versions of success. Shy away from the real talk? No way. Money struggles, growth, loss, boundaries and balance. We cover it all. Think of this as coffee with your mates, mixed with an inspiring TED Talk sprinkled with the career advice you wish you'd really had at school. So grab a cup of coffee or a glass of wine, make sure you're cosy and get ready to get inspired and chase your boldest dreams, or just survive Mondays. This is the Work it Like A Mum podcast. This episode is brought to you by Investing in Women. Investing in Women is a job board and recruitment agency helping you find your dream part-time or flexible job with the UK's most family-friendly and forward-thinking employers. Their site can help you find a professional and rewarding job that works for you. They're proud to partner with the UK's most family-friendly employers across a range of professional industries. Ready to find your perfect job? Search their website at investinginwomencouk to find your next part-time or flexible job opportunity. Now back to the show.

Speaker 1: 1:54

Hello and welcome to this week's Work. It Like A Mum podcast. Today. I'm delighted because I'm going to be chatting with Rachel Exton, who is is a mum of two and she is the Vice President of Marketing at Pearson English Language Learning. And I got in touch with Rachel after she had a viral post on LinkedIn, all about the realities of being a working mum. So I'm going to be talking about that viral post, also about building a personal brand on LinkedIn, making those initial posts as well. We're going to be talking about the future of marketing and how she balances her career with being a mum to small children as well. Thank you so much, rachel, for joining me today. It's such a pleasure to chat with you it's lovely to meet you.

Speaker 2: 2:39

Thank you for having me. No, thank you, I mean that post just exploded.

Speaker 1: 2:45

And talk me through the background to that post and what made you want to post.

Speaker 2: 2:50

Sure, absolutely Well. First of all, it was a huge surprise to me as well. I never in a million years thought that it would have such a positive reaction. It wasn't just, you know, the people liking it and reposting it and commented on LinkedIn. But I have to say I was so touched by the direct messages that I received from working mums all over the world saying how it really touched them and resonated with them, and the fact that I can just do a very small thing to help and support other working mums made me feel really good and it's kind of given me the confidence to continue. So where did it come from? So goodness?

Speaker 2: 3:31

About six months ago, I wasn't active on LinkedIn at all. I was much more of a watcher rather than getting actively involved and, if I'm honest, I was just didn't really think I had anything that interesting to say. You know I'm a 45 year old working mum. I work, I look after my kids. I don't have time for childs but it was actually my team. So part of my job is to look after the social media for our division and my team were encouraging me to get involved because, you know I can help represent Pearson and I can help have a positive effect on the work they're doing, to build our kind of LinkedIn following. So I thought, okay, I'm going to do it for the team, for the good of the team.

Speaker 2: 4:15

It took me hugely out of my comfort zone, I have to say, but the advice I was given by some really wonderful people before I started is just think about what you're passionate about and start there. And so that's what I did. And I'm passionate about marketing. I'm passionate about people in teams, but I'm also passionate about supporting working mums, and this post in particular, just came from two weeks of me just going, you know, that impossible situation of wanting to do it all. I think you know we all grew up or I definitely grew up, you know, reading Grazia and Marie Claire and Cosmopolitan and they were all saying girls, you can do it all, you can be a mom and you can be this great career woman and I really believed it. And then I became a mom and I realised you can't, it's impossible. You know, something has to give.

Speaker 2: 5:09

And it's really tough, because I hate being put in those situations where I feel like I'm letting people down, and that's how I felt before I wrote the post. I thought I was letting you know Pearson down. I thought I was letting my boss down. I thought I was letting my team down. I thought I was letting my team down because I couldn't say yes to everything they were asking. But then, on the flip side, I felt like I was letting my children and my husband down. And it's just so difficult. I was like damned if I do, damned if I didn't. And that's where it came from really just trying to show and raise the awareness of both sides, because quite often employers don't see that other side because we don't talk about it, and I think sometimes just by being open and honest, it just helps people understand a little bit more and I hope, as I said, that I've just helped a few people.

Speaker 1: 6:01

Absolutely, I think you did. I mean, if anyone's not seen the post, I can start off, I can read through it, because I think it did. I mean, if anyone's not seen the post, I can start off, I can read through it, because I think it was such a powerful post. So it says we're working mums. Of course I want to come for dinner and drinks after work. Yes, I want to do that networking event. I can get that flight. I can do that.

Speaker 1: 6:15

Late night, early morning. Call back to back work trips. I'll figure it out how to make two weeks work. I can be in London for 8am if I start at 4am and then it moves on, doesn't it? So we're working mums. Of course I'll be home for bedtime and I'll be at your football match. Help out with the school trip. Sure she's ill. I'll be there ASAP. School bake sale again. Let's get the oven on. Parents are invited in to do poppy sewing. Can't miss that. Child care fail. I'll move my meetings around. School drop off and pick up. School has a gas leak and parents need to pick up children immediately and I'm in London, three hours away. I think it is that paradox, isn't it that? Damned if you do, damned if you don't. And then you obviously go on a bit about working mum life and how the demands pull you in opposite directions and I remember reading it and I just thought, yeah, it does feel like you get it and it feels nice that Pearson supported that as well, oh, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 7:07

And I must admit I am very lucky in terms of working at Pearson but also working, uh, for my line manager, geo. They're both extremely supportive and I feel like I have a huge amount of kind of flexibility. You know, I think you know, my commitment is I will get the job done to a really high standard. Um, but they let me fit it in when I can, and sometimes that's a little bit on a Sunday morning so I can finish at three to pick my kids up on a Friday, and to me that's great. And just being able to fit it in and around the other commitments that you have, because of course, I want to be there at school.

Speaker 2: 7:41

I don't know for any other working mums listening to this. I want to be there, it's school. I don't know for any other working mums listening to this. There's nothing worse than thinking of your child being the only one sat there with no parent when they invite parents into school. I've been there and I've seen other parents which can't make it and their little faces and I'm like I can't let that be one of mine, but having an employer and a boss who is really willing to say look, I've got to pop out at 2.30 but I'll be back online till three. I'll work a bit later. I'll start a bit earlier is wonderful, and I wish more employers did it absolutely.

Speaker 1: 8:11

It's interesting what you said about how, when you were growing, you, you know, read Cosmopolitan and other magazines and it's like women you can have it all and in a way we can, because you have spoken about you can do it if you do work on a Sunday morning or, you know, maybe late at night and I'm the same. But actually there is quite a sacrifice to that in terms of your own you know, well-being and when you fit in time for you and any downtime and it's that sense of you know, do you have any time for yourself?

Speaker 2: 8:38

no, I think you're right and that's one thing I found since becoming a working mum and one thing I find when I speak to kind of friends and colleagues. Unfortunately, you go to the bottom of the pile. You know you prioritize. You know your work, you prioritize being a good mum, a good wife or partner, a good daughter, a good friend and actually looking after yourself is really hard. You probably tell I've got a cold today because guess what you get.

Speaker 2: 9:03

No, time to relax or recover. You've got to keep going and I think that would be one piece of advice I would give to myself if I could speak to the Rachel before kids is. You know, make sure you try and build in some time for you, even if it's like once a month. You know, just take a couple of hours off on a Friday so you can go for a run, go and get a facial, just read a book.

Speaker 2: 9:31

I used to hate spending time on my own before kids. Oh my goodness. Now it's like absolute luxury a glass of wine and just reading a couple of chapters in my book without somebody shouting mum at me. But look, it's harder, it's hard and it's easier said than done and everybody's got to slot it in. It might be on a weekend, it might be starting work a little bit later or finishing a little bit earlier, but I really, really recommend try and find the right way to you just to carve out that little bit of time. It doesn't have to be long, but even just an hour can just make you feel like you again and it means you'll be a better mum, a better partner, a better wife, a better employee, a better boss, if you just have that time just to you mentioned in your questionnaire about expectations that are set on us to you know, probably by ourselves, but also by others, and you've been asked about why you're not necessarily doing more for the wider marketing community.

Speaker 1: 10:25

I know you do a lot within Pearson. You're obviously busy. You've got, you know, really senior within the organization. Talk us through what led that person got in touch with you and what led to that question yeah sure, absolutely so.

Speaker 2: 10:37

Um, I am. I applied to to a training which is quite competitive because it allows marketeers to develop their skills but also build a great network and part of that process. I was asked exactly that question what do you do to help, support and grow the marketing community outside of your day job? And my reaction was not that much, because actually I'm a full-time working mom. I don't have a huge amount of time to actively get involved. Would I like to, absolutely. You know, marketing is my passion. It's what I get up and do and I have been getting up and doing for the last 20 years and I will do for another 20 years more. So I would love to do more, but I I have to say, when I was asked that question, it actually made me feel a little bit sad inside.

Speaker 2: 11:27

That was important, or emphasis was placed on that, because I have managed to develop my career to a VP level whilst raising two kids and keeping my relationship intact. I think that's pretty amazing and I I think that is enough, and the fact that we are asking and expecting people to do even more than that, I just think is wrong. If you can, brilliant, but let's not expect it of people, because I actually think doing your job brilliantly and keeping yourself and your family happy, brilliant, absolutely brilliant. And it goes back a little bit to the post I said let's be kind, and for me that's the kindness of actually saying do you know what this girl is? A working mum? She's done really well to get to this level. Let's not expect any more. Let's celebrate that, let's be happy with that.

Speaker 1: 12:23

It's interesting what you said said. I think I've interviewed a lot of people now for this podcast and actually the people that have got really senior in their jobs, like you. The feedback I've got from them is it's a marathon, not a sprint, and I think that is something that's really stuck with me. And you know, hopefully we'll all you know, we'll all have like 40 40 of your careers or whatever you know we'll we find something we enjoy. That's a lot of time to do a lot of extra things, and when you're really busy with things, potentially at home, then some things are going to maybe fall, you know, on the wayside, but then you pick them back up when a time that suits you absolutely.

Speaker 2: 12:58

And you know what? I couldn't agree with that more. And if I could speak to the younger Rachel, I would say exactly that. But of course, you're in a rush, you want to get there. But one of the reasons why I've been able to get more active on LinkedIn, one of the reasons why I can kind of speak to you today, is my kids are that little bit older now. They're 10 and 7. They're a little bit more independent. They're sleeping. So I'm beginning to find I can start to do a little bit more of things for me. But you know, when they were babies or when they were young toddlers, it's like no way. So I really agree with that advice. It's not about saying no, it's about saying when. That point will be different for everybody and there's no right or wrong absolutely so.

Speaker 1: 13:42

Talk me through what it was like then, when your children were younger, how you sort of juggled it all, and what your through what it was like then when your children were younger, how you sort of juggled it all, and what your return to work was like oh my goodness, to be honest with you, I kind of look back now and it's a bit of a blur, I think.

Speaker 2: 13:53

How did I do it?

Speaker 2: 15:01

yeah, a lot of it, especially when you're not sleeping very well and you're like what I have learned that sleep is such a gift it makes makes everything. You can do anything and cope with anything, as long as you've had a good night's sleep. So, goodness, what was it like? It was crazy and I think, if I could give any advice to kind of me as I was beginning to think about a family and beginning to think about work, I think there are a couple of things I would have done differently to try and set myself up for success. I think the first one is to have a really open and honest discussion with your partner about, like you know, how are we going to make this work. Like roles and responsibilities, pickups, drop-offs. You know it's easy to get carried away with the romance of it all and when reality hits it's really different. So it's about having that honest conversation but keeping it going. You know it's tough. It's really tough when you're both working, you're both tired. Like you know whose career takes priority.

Speaker 1: 16:05

I was going to say that's the question a lot of couples, you know, say to each other is whose job is more important? And a lot of it does come down to who earns more, and unfortunately there is a gender pay gap and in a lot of couples it's the male that ends them. You know, in heterosexual couples it's the male that ends more and then therefore, it seems to be, their career is prioritized yeah, I agree.

Speaker 2: 16:27

I mean, that is it's changing, but that is the case. But I also. But that's the importance of having the conversation, I think, as well, because whose career is important is different for each person and it's not necessary about, like you know who earns more, who earns less. You know, if you both decide to work, it's for the good of the family. So, therefore, how are you going to share things out? And it doesn't have to be 50-50, because that might not be possible, but it's just good to set some, or set yourself up for success by putting some foundations in place. But then things change.

Speaker 2: 17:02

So it's keep talking, and it's easier said than done to keep talking. The other thing is get a great support network. I mean, oh my goodness, I couldn't be where I am now without some absolutely fantastic child care, my family I'm lucky to have my mum and dad close by and one of my sisters, but I also have an amazing circle of mummy friends and I can say they are worth that absolute weight in gold. When that gas leak happens, I could pick up the phone to a mummy friend. They're like, of course, I'll grab them for you. You know, we're all in it together.

Speaker 1: 17:34

I think so. I think you know there's a bit of a rat um a bad reference there. You know, like motherland, which is funny and I enjoy motherland, but it does show that you know. It sort of shows that people aren't very nice at the school gates. You know the mums. But actually my experience is I made some lovely friends at the school gates, like you that would pick up the kids if need, if there was a gas leak or something else.

Speaker 2: 17:54

Yeah, no, absolutely. And it's not just people at school as well, it's people I've met through, you know, my NCT group, as well as play groups. But I just, yeah, I've really appreciated the mummy friends that I have. Um, we get each other and nobody minds helping out, and I always sometimes feel guilty because I work full time. It's harder for me to help in the weeks.

Speaker 2: 18:19

I always try, like on the weekends, like, oh, let me give you a break, let me just pick up the kids. I'm going to soft play anyway, so you might as well chuck your two in the car and, yeah, we just work it out kind of together. So I think that support network is really important. I think the other thing as well, especially for any new mums be aware that the first six months they're really hard because it's change for all of you. So you might get lucky. But both Charlie and Molly, my two, when I went back to work, they stopped sleeping because they didn't have mummy with them all the time, so they stopped sleeping. They also picked up every bug under the sun.

Speaker 1: 18:57

It's quite normal, isn't it?

Speaker 2: 18:58

but it's as you're trying to get back into work and then I was at the doctor like oh my god, things I didn't know. It's's a slap cheek, hand, foot and mouth, you name it. We got it, and then I got it as well. So literally it was six months of just hell, if I'm really honest with you. But it was worth it. But if I knew that I could have maybe set things up a little bit better to help me and my husband kind of get through that?

Speaker 1: 19:25

How would you set things up differently? Are you talking about the six months on the return to work? Then, when they started well.

Speaker 2: 19:30

I think there's things that you can do and personally in terms of that support network I talked about but also clear the decks on the weekend. Don't try and go and visit your friends, like you know, your uni friends all over the world. Don't do that. Book a holiday three months in because you're going to need it. So there are things that you can do, but I also think I'm a big believer that there are more that employers can do to help support working parents on their return, whether it will be, you know, coaching, whether it could be flexible working, whether it could be the opportunity to move sideways in your career for a while versus always going upwards. So I think there's things we can do on both sides to really set both parties up for success so they find their groove again and you can kind of get into this new routine and this new way of working and this new way of life at home.

Speaker 1: 20:23

Absolutely, because you do lose a lot of confidence actually on maternity leave that you can't do job anymore and it takes. It doesn't take that long to get back into it. But you know you probably do need a bit of that grace period, don't you have a couple?

Speaker 2: 20:34

absolutely you're filled with self-doubt about can I still do this, like from a work perspective, can I still do this, but also all like the guilt at home in terms of, like you know, are they going to be all right at nursery? Are they going to still sleep? You know, I can remember saying there's no way you're going to get my son Charlie to sleep. He'll only sleep if you walk him in a buggy and he normally falls asleep when you're as far away as possible from the house. And guess what? Blinking slept for them like he never would for me. But I was so worried about it and it's all natural. You've just got all of these emotions and all of these insecurities kind of running through you and anything you can do just to give yourself that freedom and they just take the pressure off of yourself on both accounts for the first few months and you can do it.

Speaker 1: 21:18

You can you find your groove again absolutely what I do, because I know that you said you recently been promoted, I think maybe perform maternally. But then on your return you wanted you put in a flexible working request. You said you've recently been promoted, I think maybe before maternity leave, and then on your return you put in a flexible working request. They said you could do it at a lower level and then you were sideways new.

Speaker 2: 21:33

That was quite a hard period. So it was when I was working at Dyson and after I had my second. So Molly, during my maternity leave, and my husband got promoted, which was great, so I really wanted to support that. Plus, when I was returning it coincided with my son, charlie, starting primary school. So there was so much new stuff happening, so new routine for my husband, new routine for my son, new routine for me and my daughter. I was like how am I going to make this Quite overwhelming, isn't it? I felt really overwhelmed. I really wanted to go back to work. I was ready after my 12 months maternity, I really wanted to use my head again. But I asked if I could come back for three days a week versus the four day a week I did with my son just temporarily to help me find my groove again that we've just been talking about and, although really supportive, I was told that I couldn't come back as a director level and I actually had to take a step down which.

Speaker 1: 22:35

What was the justification for that?

Speaker 2: 22:37

from them, it was just about the ability to do a senior role in three days a week what do you mean in terms of being around for colleagues or for clients? I think a little bit of everything, just being able to, you know, be there to manage the team, to deliver what was required, because I don't think what employers are very good at is looking at new roles. Basically, when I went back after Charlie, I got four days a week, which was great, but my role didn't change at all.

Speaker 1: 23:06

I just had to do five days and four yeah, which is quite normal, I think, for a lot of people yeah, so you don't rethink and that's actually. I'm not. I'm surprised employers say no to that because they know they don't reduce the role, do they? They just get, basically, they just get the role done for cheaper, absolutely and so I have to say I was.

Speaker 2: 23:26

It just felt like an absolute tummy punch being told that you know, I'd worked extremely hard to get that director position and I was really proud of it and I was coming back asking for three days a week. I hadn't lost half my brain. So, yeah, it was really tough and I had to do a lot of soul searching and I have to say I did drink quite a lot of wine with my girlfriends, but I decided to do it not going back and I did contemplate not going back.

Speaker 2: 23:52

But I love work and I love what I do and starting a brand new employer with two young kids is really difficult. You know, I've been at Dyson for 10 years. I knew the people, I knew the company. I had a really strong support network and reputation. So it felt even well. Not going back to work was just not an option for me because I genuinely love what I do and starting somewhere new felt like even more pressure when I was trying to, kind of, you know, juggle this new routine.

Speaker 2: 24:22

So, after a lot of like soul searching and some great conversations with people, I decided to do it. So I went back three days a week to a head of role. It was something completely different. It was outside of marketing and it was actually working in retail. I'd never done retail before, but you know what, Looking back on it, although it didn't start off as a positive, it really did turn into something which I am forever grateful for and I would absolutely advocate now to anybody whether you're a working mum or not thinking about developing your career sideways as well as looking to go up.

Speaker 2: 24:58

Because what I learned in this 18 months that I did the role was skills I would have never have acquired if I'd stayed in marketing, just being focused and going up that tree. It made me become so much more rounded in terms of my skill base but also my leadership style. I just really enjoyed it and I think there is a definite opportunity for employers to think about that with returning mums. So I actually wrote an article about a return, almost like a grad-like style programme for working parents who want to have that flexibility and take that pressure off for a period of time, and it could be a really positive way and a big win-win for the employee but also the employer.

Speaker 2: 25:51

Because for me, when I was ready, it was after 18 months. It might be three years, it might be four for some, or it might never come, but that's fine. But for me after 18 months I was like right, I've got everything going again. It's running quite smoothly at home, it's running quite smoothly at work. I'm ready to go back up again now. But look at what I can bring. I'm so much more rounded and I've learned so much more than if I just stayed in marketing. So, as I say, I cannot recommend it enough. And I would have never have done it because I was so set on going upwards if I wasn't put in quite a challenging situation.

Speaker 1: 26:23

But now I would recommend it to anybody in quite a challenging situation, but now I would recommend it to anybody. It's interesting because you know, I think big, big corporate organizations like Dyson and I was at Deloitte you are very, in a really quite small role. You're a really tiny, tiny cog, aren't you in a massive machine, and actually, if you just move to different departments, even at the same level, you do become a lot more commercial and you understand a lot more in depth about how an organization slots together I completely agree.

Speaker 2: 26:48

Not only do you learn those like kind of harder skills, like maybe digital marketing, for example, I think it's also those softer skills in terms of collaboration, because you can really, if you've done the role, you can really put yourself in their shoes, so actually you can solve conflicts. You can solve problems so much more easier when you've got a better appreciation of where each person is coming from. So I think it helps when those harder, but also those softer skills as well, which are just as important.

Speaker 1: 27:15

A lot of people, though, are put in positions a bit like yours. You know they'd be offered something lower skilled after maternity leave in exchange for that flex, and then they find they're on a mummy track and they can't get off that mummy track. How did you find it going back into those you know upward roles after you'd been, you know, in the sideways positions?

Speaker 2: 27:34

yeah, I mean I suppose I was lucky. Oh no, that's I'm not, I wasn't lucky. Actually that's the wrong kind of language. I proved that I could still do it and I was. I did have a very supportive team and manager kind of around me.

Speaker 2: 27:50

But I think I would just encourage people to have those really honest conversations.

Speaker 2: 27:54

You know, if you want to kind of go back up, make sure you're having that conversation with your employer in terms of you know your objectives, what good looks like, what you need to deliver, to make sure that you know in performance review times you have the proof you can hang your hat on what you've delivered so you can get back into those talent conversations.

Speaker 2: 28:15

So I think that would be my advice. It's about, when you are ready, making sure that you have very honest conversations with your kind of line manager and your HR team and it's really clear and written in your objectives what needs to deliver. Because I think for anybody, whether you're a working mum or not, what you need to do in your end of year review is have, like you know, those three to five big things that you've done and you can kind of hang your hat on it and say this is what I delivered. This was my objective and I've met it, or I've smashed it, and I think if you can build up that body of evidence and have that clarity as well, it really helps you then move your career in the in the direction that you want it to well, I know you're a leader now and you manage a team.

Speaker 1: 29:01

What about if you've got a lot going on in your personal life? You know it might be your recent return to, from, essentially, or you could be juggling, illness, caring, I don't know. There's something might be going on and you need to take your foot off the pedal for a bit. How do you approach those conversations with your manager? Because there is, I think, this expectation that we all are so ambitious, we all want to work hard, we all want to get to the top of our tree and actually not everybody wants to do that all of the time and not everyone wants to do that anytime no.

Speaker 2: 29:27

And also I can say as the leader of team you don't want a team of everybody who wants to go upwards. You need to have a real mix in your team. You need to have people in your team who are hungry and want more. But actually I think it's a wonderful place to be and I'd really kind of applaud it when you say, look, enough is enough. I love my role, I love the work life balance I've got. I like my remuneration and this is enough for me. I'm going to come to work and do a great job every day, but I don't want any more and I really applaud those people. And you need a balance of both within the team.

Speaker 2: 30:00

And again, I would just encourage people to be honest. You know we're all humans and we have different things happening at different times. And if you do need to take your foot off the accelerator, that I well in my team anyway, I'd always be very supportive of that. But as a manager, I'd much prefer people to speak to me about it honestly so we can look at redistributing the workload to make sure that it's fair.

Speaker 2: 30:23

For me, it's harder as a leader if I've got somebody in there like just not delivering what they said they have, because then it's letting the whole team down. But if they're brave enough to have that honest conversation to say I just can't do it at the moment for these reasons, no problem, we're a team. The point of being a team if you come together and you can move things around, there'll be some people who can do a little bit more or want to do a little bit more, and actually it can be a real win-win. But it's just about kind of being honest and I like to think within my team I kind of built that culture of being able to have those honest conversations and people knowing that they will be supported.

Speaker 1: 31:01

You spoke as well, before we got on the call, about the importance of an inclusive team. How do you foster an inclusive team and why is it so important?

Speaker 2: 31:09

Yeah, no it's a really good question and I think to me the starting point comes from I can't do it alone. Like you know, I look at. You know the size of the opportunity or challenge that I have in my current role, and one person can't do that. You know we need the team to be a success. So I think of all this first of all, is that kind of realization. You know, maybe when you know I started out and my roles were smaller, it could just be me. You know I could work really hard but no matter, I could work 365 days a week, I could work kind of 24 hours a day and I couldn't get it all done. So I need a team to help me kind of be successful and deliver what the company is asking for. I think the other thing that I have learned over the past 20 years is the importance of listening. This has definitely been something I've learned over time. So when I first got promoted to a manager, I thought that I needed to have all the answers.

Speaker 2: 32:06

It's like well, I'm a manager so I have to know, I have to know how to do it, I have to be the first one to speak. I have to do this and what I realized quite quickly is the you don't, first of all, you don't need to have all the answers, and actually the most important thing you can do is really listen to people, because quite often people themselves know what the answer to the question is or the answer to the challenge, but they might not be able to articulate it maybe correctly or they might not have the confidence in their convictions. And I know I really, really learned the power of this when I joined Pearson, because I'd never worked in education and I'd grown up working in FMCG and technology companies and so I wasn't a subject matter expert. But what I realized is that by listening to the team, they had all the answers and what I could do is help them storytell and give them a platform to help really kind of make sure kind of change happens. So I think the importance of listening, I think the other thing I've learned, the importance of is culture champions.

Speaker 2: 33:14

So it was something my boss actually introduced to me because, again, you can't change a culture on your own. A team is more than just one person. It has to come from within. If you think about the most simplest but I think the most loveliest definition of culture is the way we do things here, but it's the way you do it all as a collective. And so, yeah, one of the things again I introduced it, pearson, through the advice of my boss was about asking people to put their hands up if they were passionate about people, passionate about change, and they wanted to make some great stuff happen.

Speaker 2: 33:48

You know, I genuinely want English language marketing to be the best place to work. I want people to feel challenged, but I want people to enjoy it. I want them to feel challenged, but I want people to enjoy it. I want them to have fun along the way. And so now I've got this team of culture champions which are there to help me do just that Listen to people, implement things.

Speaker 2: 34:08

We rotate it on a 12-monthly basis. You can stay if you want to, or you know, as you said, you've got something going on so you can't do it on top of your day job, no problem, but it's been so fun and you know we've managed to implement, you know, a number of activities which I wouldn't have just thought of on my own but they bring to the table. I really recommend that. And then I think, finally, it's just trying to lead by example and you know I've had a lot of kind of feedback, whether it's posting on LinkedIn or just through the all hands that we do or the way that I communicate with people. It's like, well, you know just thanking me for being honest and open and, I suppose, authentic about you know how I'm feeling, about how I manage stuff.

Speaker 1: 34:53

It kind of creates that environment that other people can feel confident to be open and honest as well you've been really brave post on linkedin because I do linkedin calls with people and a lot of it is I'm can't. I'm so nervous about what my colleagues are gonna think you know, or I can't post this because this would go against you know. For example, you've obviously posted about the importance of work-life balance, but I've done coaching people that work for banks where maybe work-life balance isn't a priority for that particular organization and they feel that their values may be charred with their employer. What would you say to people that want to post, maybe on on LinkedIn or another social media platform, but are worried?

Speaker 2: 35:34

I'm smiling, elizabeth, because I know that feeling. I do know that feeling because you know what you want to come across as kind of really positive and wanting to drive change for a positive reason, versus then you know, moaning about something because that's not who you are and, to be honest with you, you are having a good moan. Then maybe you should think twice about is LinkedIn the right place to do it? But I think the key thing for me and it was the advice I was given is be authentic and it's like talk about what you're really kind of interested and passionate about. Um.

Speaker 2: 36:08

I was nervous about um, you know, talking about kind of and supporting working mums, because I didn't want it. I didn't want it to be perceived negatively, but I would say like run it past a couple of people beforehand. So I've got some people that I trust. But I'd also say look, be confident and, you know, give it a go. I was blown away, as I said earlier, about the impact that that post had. I never imagined it and it's given me the confidence to say, okay, you know this isn't viral, didn't it?

Speaker 1: 36:37

how many like likes did it get? Did you see how many?

Speaker 2: 36:40

so I think it's still growing, which is crazy, but it's like over 1800. Yeah, I opened up LinkedIn. It says you're trending. I was like, oh, this is like so, not me, it wasn't what I expected at all. Um, but also on that post I had messages from two of the board members actually, or our executive team members, to say thank you for being so open and posting that, which was really unexpected and really lovely. So I would just, as I said, encourage people to be authentic, encourage people to be brave, but make sure what you're doing has real positive kind of intentions and that you want to drive positive change. And I would say, find a few friendly people either within the organization or outside and use them as a bit of a sounding board. But what's the worst that can happen?

Speaker 1: 37:24

Do you think we should all be building a bit of a personal brand on LinkedIn.

Speaker 2: 37:29

Well, it depends what you want to get out of it, I suppose, and it really kind of depends on why you're there. It's really helped me thinking about what I want to stand for and what I'm passionate about, because it means it just gives me a little bit of structure. Really, you know it's on top of a really really busy day job. So you know it's like, well, you know what things really kind of resonate with me, like, as I said, I'm really I love marketing and I want to celebrate kind of great marketing and recently a couple of campaigns have really caught my eye. So I basically just love anything Dove do.

Speaker 2: 38:03

I think you know it's incredible in terms of supporting women but also now having I've got a son and a daughter but, yes, seeing, like you know, the impact of society and social media has on them and how they feel about themselves. I really love what Dove does and I love the fact that I work in an industry which can have a positive change on society, so it's been great to share that. I also love some of the stuff that Lego are doing with their Unstoppable campaign. So I really love kind of celebrating that. But, as I said, it's by thinking about what I want to stand for, which has given me the confidence to start having a go in posting around these type of things. So yeah, I'm not sure, I didn't think.

Speaker 1: 38:43

Oh, Marketing is so powerful. You do see some amazing campaigns, don't you, that people share. What's the future of marketing?

Speaker 2: 38:51

Oh, my goodness. Well, it's involving. Even in the 20 years that I've worked in marketing, it's changed so much. So if I think about when I first started as a grad, it was all about tv. You put it on tv, you sell loads. But now I you know it's not. The way in which we consume media is completely changed and you know, influencers, for example, have kind of taken over. Just speaking from my own behavior, I buy what I see on instagram because I'm following people who I really like their look, I really like what they stand for and I'm like, oh, I love that. So, and then kind of buy and the AI is going to completely revolutionize again in terms of the way in which people consume media, the way in which people buy media, the way in which we just work. So I think it's constantly evolving and I think the main thing we can do is just really remain open-minded and learn, be curious.

Speaker 1: 39:48

I think that's the best advice I can give to anybody, obviously, for a lot of people are frightened of AI, aren't they? They're worried it's going to take their jobs, it's going to remove creativity from online.

Speaker 2: 39:57

You know, there's obviously some negatives to it well, like any new technology, there are kind of like pros and cons to it, but it's coming, so sticking your head in the sand is not going to help, so I would say let's embrace it. Like you know, I have chat gtp open constantly. I do.

Speaker 1: 40:14

I have that tab all the time and then I think, oh, shut up, you know, and it does help me actually with a lot of my writing and how I switch things, but actually it's still me.

Speaker 2: 40:23

Absolutely, and I think that's when technology is at its best, when it augments what we do and it helps make us better. And there's some wonderful examples of how AI is helping make real advancements in kind of medicine. It's not replacing the doctors. It will never replace the doctors, but it allows them to achieve so much more. So I would just say to people don't be scared of it. Don't be scared of it, embrace it, trial it out. There are pros and there are cons, but it is coming and so, whether you work in marketing or HR or finance, it can make your job better. So play around, embrace it. I think would be my main advice.

Speaker 1: 41:04

Yes, and before we conclude, you mentioned something else. I've never heard of that the SSI score on LinkedIn. So tell us what you've learned since posting on LinkedIn.

Speaker 2: 41:14

Mainly because of my team, my wonderful kind of team. Um, we have a. I have a girl called alton fordman who's just absolutely amazing and she's been educating me. But yes, within linkedin there is something called an ssi school, which is your social selling index, and it basically is a school to tell you how well you're doing on the platform. So anything above 60 is good. If you can get into the 70s, you're racing it, 80s you're probably literally.

Speaker 1: 41:38

I'm gonna be like how do we get this score? Now, as soon as we get off this call, I'm gonna be like going have a look, how do you find it?

Speaker 2: 41:43

well, there's a link that you can just click on. I'll send it to you or you can just google it or ask chat gtp about it and you can click on it and it gives you your ssi score. It's made up of like kind of four different components, so it talks about your personal brand, how great you are at making connections, how insightful you are and how you build your network. And you know it's just a good gauge. It doesn't mean you're good or bad, but it just helps you realize. They tell you how to get you could be getting better, or it doesn't go into that detail. It breaks it down into the four categories, which give you some indications of what you could do, what you could do better. It's just as I say, it's a data point to help you do better.

Speaker 2: 42:24

I can also say it becomes very addictive. So just to warn you, you're there like clicking on it constantly and I think that's my competitive spirit. Like you know, it's like now I've kind of put my toe into linkedin. If I'm going to do it, I want to try and, you know, do it well and this is a nice way of engaging. If you are, if I'm going to do it, I want to try and do it well, and this is a nice way of gauging. If you are, so I'm going to send it to you. Elizabeth, I'll send you the link so you can have a little look.

Speaker 1: 42:45

So before we wrap up, I know you've got a son and a daughter and you talk about. You know the career advice maybe you had when you were younger that was coming from magazines and I think that you know all children of the 80s and early 90s had. What would be your advice to them?

Speaker 2: 42:59

oh goodness. My advice to them is to find something that you're passionate about. I think that's the key thing for me. You've got to get up and do this thing called work for a long time and it's a big part of your life, and I have friends that I speak to who love what they do, and I feel very lucky to fall into that kind of camp, and I have friends that don't, and it's really draining if you don't love what they do, and I feel very lucky to fall into that kind of camp, and I have friends that don't, and it's really draining if you don't love what you do. So I would just say, well, I and what I want for both Molly and Charlie is to explore everything, give everything to go, but find out what you're passionate about. Find out what is going to give you that fire in your belly and make you want to jump out of bed every single day and do that.

Speaker 2: 43:40

And that could be very different. It might be, you know, my daughter might be a makeup artist. She's loving makeup at the moment. You know, my son is talking about joining the army, or it could be going into business.

Speaker 2: 43:51

Like me, I don't really mind what it is, I just want them to be happy and I want them to enjoy it, and I think that is one of the key reasons why it's been important for me to go back to work.

Speaker 2: 44:02

Yes, it's about, you know, financial stability. Yes, it is about, you know, fulfilling my personal kind of passion for work. But also, I think, by coming back to work, I have the opportunity to make a change for the better for them, so they're not faced with some of the challenges that we have at the moment in terms of parents and in terms of women. You know, by just being in the workforce, I can help fight to make a better place for them, and so, for anybody who's wobbling about do I or don't I, I would just say give it a go, because if you're in it, you can help make a difference and you have a voice absolutely I'm gonna say you've been brave because you're using your voice and I know not everybody feels confident, but actually I think that is important, even if it is just a post on LinkedIn you don't know where it's going to go, but it's that voice and more voices.

Speaker 1: 44:54

You know employers and people here and then hopefully that we will get new change we deserve and our children definitely deserve. I 100 agree yeah, so how can people find you connect with you?

Speaker 2: 45:05

view that post oh well, yes, please find me on. Linkedin is the best way and to do that and really and as I say, I am really happy for people to dm me if I can give any advice or help anybody on their journey. It actually helps me feel good about myself. So I'm trying desperately to get back to all the people who are messaging. I definitely don't have all the answers. I am kind of doing my best, but you know, I sometimes, you know, don't have great days. I have a little cry. I think God, I can't do this anymore. But I think by just, yeah, being open and honest and talking to each other and explaining to people that you're not the only one who's struggling, and at times things can be hard, but making people feel that they're supported and that they can talk to people is super duper important well.

Speaker 1: 45:54

Thank you so much, rachel, for joining me today. It's been such a pleasure.

Speaker 2: 45:58

Thank you very much for having me. I really appreciate it.

Speaker 1: 46:03

Thank you for listening to another episode of the Work it Like A Mum podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please rate, review and subscribe, and don't forget to share the link with a friend. If you're on LinkedIn, please send me a connection request at Elizabeth Willett and let me know your thoughts on this week's episode. You can also follow my recruitment site Investing in Women on LinkedIn, facebook and Instagram. Until next time, keep on chasing your biggest dreams.