Make More Money + Sales with Your Established Course or Coaching Program, Part 2 – with Steve Corney

Listen - there's a lot of nonsense happening in the online marketing space right now.  And you'd think with all that noise, there might be something about about developing marketing strategies that seek to actually understand clients and build trust - but....*crickets*

Today we're back for Part 2 of our 'Make More Money + Sales with your Established Course or Coaching Program series with Steve Corney.  We're getting into messaging that seeks to make your clients feel seen, heard, and understood and why that's such a HUGE game changer for elevating your business (and - ahem - making more sales). 

Quick overview of what we cover:

• The biggest reason you're getting shot down when pitching your programs and courses
• The 6 stages of product-solution-product awareness
• Why 'how-to' educational content is causing you to fall short of the sales finish line with problem-unaware people 
• How Diagnostic Education blows 'pain point' marketing away
• What to do about Super Fans who consume all your content and buy nothing
• How to market for what people want and then design curriculum for what they need (while staying in a manipulation-free zone)
• Why marketing to help people feel heard, seen, and understood is the Holy Grail of high conversion rates
• The social proof strategy that's WAY more effective than future pacing/inspiration-baiting 
• Why 'more' of what's NOT working doesn't make it work...more

CHECK OUT STEVE + ADRIANE'S PROJECT: 

• Click here to get on the waitlist for our program launch
• Follow us: @servicedrivenscaling

LISTEN TO MORE EPISODES WITH STEVE:

• Episode 45, How Bro Marketers Have Destroyed Digital Learning 
• Episode 55, Marketing With Integrity in a Post-Bropocalypse World 
• Episode 63, The 5 Elements of a Successful Digital Sales Event Funnel, Part 1
• Episode 64, The 5 Elements of a Successful Digital Sales Event Funnel, Part 2 
• Episode 67, The Critical Metrics Most Coaches and Course Creators Aren’t Tracking for Long-Term Success
• Episode 70, The Secret Weapons of Generating More Leads and Converting More Sales 
• Episode 73, Trust Isn't Enough to Sell Courses or Group Coaching Programs: Extending Your Lifetime Customer Value Via Respect and Consent
• Episode 74, Delivering Outcomes With Mad Respect - How To Improve Your Curriculum and Course Design and Your Learner's Experience
• Episode 76, Make More Money + Sales with your Established Course or Coaching, Part 1 

RESOURCES: 

• Click here to join Adriane’s $7 Marketing Strategy Membership
• Click here to get on the waitlist for Sustainable Growth Lab
• Click here to work with Adriane and the Soulpreneur Agency
• Book a call with Soulpreneur to grow your business

CONNECT W/ STEVE: 

• Instagram: @steve_corney
• LinkedIn: @thisisstevecorney

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

If you don't know how to help someone feel really seen you're. It's an uphill battle every time, because when you can just clearly articulate to someone things that maybe they've never said to anyone else in their life, they've never said these things out loud but you're able to say like I understand what's going on in your head, that happens to me a lot with you know. I help people build teams and put sustainability behind their brand through systems, systems, teams and structure and all that stuff is a lot of the stuff that I say. It makes it so much easier to sell. I don't even want to think about it that way, but it makes it easier because it's stuff that no one's ever said to them.

Speaker 1: 0:42

Welcome to the Soulpreneur show a podcast for a new generation of leaders, visionaries, disruptors and trailblazers who want to do business better. Our goal is to provide you with stories and insights into the strategy, systems and soul behind scaling, service driven, impact first, human centric businesses to help you create time, financial and lifestyle freedom. We want you to have a business that you not only love and pays you well, but that prioritizes what you want for your life, so that you can take actual unplugged vacations, you can step away from social media and you can spend your time doing things you love with the people you love. Let's get to it.

Speaker 2: 1:24

That gets killer results. Dude, you've been getting some absolutely bananas results over the last few weeks. So tip of the cap to you and tell us all. Tell us all the secrets of this world. Where are we at? Where are we at in our podcast adventure? Last episode we started oh, we're in the dude, we're in the weeds now.

Speaker 1: 1:47

We're in the weeds.

Speaker 2: 1:48

Oh, then we have progressed into part of the pillars, the pillars of destiny.

Speaker 1: 1:53

We have we have.

Speaker 2: 1:54

Last week we did well, last time we did curriculum.

Speaker 1: 1:58

It would be last week for the people.

Speaker 2: 1:59

Yeah, yeah, well, for me, like physically, it was last week. I don't know about the people, but yeah, it was last week for me. So we talked about curriculum and some of the challenges, some of the struggles. But if you do any of that stuff that we talked about last, your set, your course will go, or your program will go from where it is now to somewhere really, really cool.

Speaker 1: 2:21

Yeah, cause this whole, the whole little series that we're doing here? But that are our pillars. We're not just doing this for our benefit of they're our pillars, so they're cool Like they're. They're very standard. It's not like there's anything special about them, but the starting point was how to scale an established course or group coaching program and we started with curriculum and that might not seem obvious. It's like what is it? What does that have to do with scaling something? So that's, if you haven't listened to it, you should, because it will absolutely help you make more money.

Speaker 2: 2:51

And there's other things that help you make money as well which they're more obvious, yeah.

Speaker 2: 2:56

Some of the stuff that I think more people paint the plate with in this, in this space. So it's great to it's great to recognize that we're doing things a little bit differently, we're coming at things a little bit with a different approach, but the approach that we're taking and the things that we're starting with are we're starting with them for a reason because we know that, like there's quick wins in there and there's really good ways to like lay a solid foundation of this concept of respect that we've been talking about across the land. Like you could sell someone into your curriculum and if you don't tweak your curriculum or enhance it or pimp it before you've sold them into it, then you undo all of the great stuff, which is why we're talking about marketing today and we weren't talking about it first thing off the rank last week, which is a nice little. That's a nice little thing that makes us different, adrian. We we do it in a different order.

Speaker 1: 3:49

Is that our? Is that our USP or our UVP?

Speaker 2: 3:52

I'm an acronym free human, so my unique selling proposition is such that I show up and record things with you. That's my USP.

Speaker 1: 4:04

That's your unique selling proposition. You just show up and record my sparkling personality is the. That's what it is.

Speaker 2: 4:14

Yeah, it brings me back. It brings me back and you're listening. Now I've recovered, but just before we press the record button, my illustrious host over here hit me square between the eyes Like it's it was 7am. I just woken up.

Speaker 2: 4:30

I'm still like I've got over the yawns, like I was yawning every minute on the minute for the first half hour of our chat and we usually have, we usually have a pre podcast warm up, folks, where it's like let's find out what happened this week, what did you get up to, what were your wins, what were your losses? And then, of course, it's hey, adrian, what cool thing have you started this week that you always tell me I can't start anything, but then you know you start them almost weekly, right? Cool stuff to enrich the world. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Don't shake your head like you're gonna interrupt me now.

Speaker 2: 4:59

This is I've got the microphone, I have the speaking stick, silence, silence. You can be square between this and that. See, how can you folks, how can you compete with this, right? I just wanna say like everything, it's like anything I do. Adrian, just like takes it to a whole other level. So I didn't have a microphone, I just plug into it and then it is like well look at me Bleh.

Speaker 2: 5:35

You could go like a hairbrush microphone, so there you go, but you absolutely lit me on fire just before the podcast started. So I'm finally just getting back to my old self of having will to exist and go on.

Speaker 1: 5:52

You loved it.

Speaker 2: 5:53

I do. It was fantastic. It was a fantastic. What do you call those in the US? Like a burn.

Speaker 1: 5:59

That's a sick burn. Yeah, I would never say sick burn, but yeah, you call it a burn. Sick burn, bro Nice.

Speaker 2: 6:08

Today we are talking about, we are going into pillar number two of four. Spoiler alert, there's four of them. It is not in the shape of the pyramid, which is good, Because I think there's too many things out there that they say they're pillars but they're really just bricks that form a triangle, and the triangle then becomes a pyramid, and then you end up selling your mum Herbalife.

Speaker 1: 6:31

That's not what this is. It's not what this is. It's not a pyramid scheme.

Speaker 2: 6:37

These are four independent pillars that stand upright and hold the fate of the world.

Speaker 1: 6:45

They're more like the Olympic rings, I think, than like individual upright pillars, because they all, they'll work together.

Speaker 2: 6:55

I was going to connect them across the top with like a beam, but we can turn them into rings totally.

Speaker 1: 7:02

Okay, that works.

Speaker 2: 7:03

But there's four of them. We've done one curriculum Two. Today is all about marketing. Adrian.

Speaker 1: 7:09

I'm really letting you just lead this dance today.

Speaker 2: 7:13

Because you're about to like, literally. Hey folks, just spoiler alert, if in case you're wondering what's going to happen in this episode. This is the part where Steve passes the baton and the torch to the person that holds all the keys to the city. In this topic but not just just just I will hold my own, as I am a victim and a participant in the marketing world. I've had my share of people coming to me saying, well, I can't get any bums on seats into my programs, and I'm like, okay, well, I'm really good at keeping them. I'm really good at keeping them. Let me find, let me go into my little roller decks. Like, who do I know Adrian, I know Adrian's really good at getting bums on seats. Hence why we have joined forces to bring, bring you this adventure.

Speaker 1: 7:56

That is what we're doing in this adventure. It's going to be good. It's going to be good, so what?

Speaker 2: 8:00

is it so? So this marketing and sales, right? So I know we've talked about this in previous episodes, but just maybe to kick us off, like what, how are we going to define the world of the world of marketing for the purposes of this pillar and for the purpose of this episode?

Speaker 1: 8:12

That's a good question. How do you, how do you distinguish between marketing and selling, is where we're going with this. So sales content is something that has a direct call to action to buy or that is going to lead directly to the purchase. So I think you could be directing someone to get on a sales call or to join to join your launch event, like that's. That all speaks to sales content. But marketing content is has the intent of, of creating the trust that's necessary so that someone will. You will be the obvious choice when someone's ready to make a purchase, and the real distinction here is that sales content is always sales content on its own, but marketing content happens both as a as its own individual thing and while you're selling. So while you're selling, you're still marketing, but you can market without selling. Does that make sense?

Speaker 2: 9:03

Yeah, absolutely so, yeah, so, you, you, you would use marketing stuff, marketing content, in some of your sales, in some of your sales pages content.

Speaker 1: 9:14

Right, and the less someone knows about you, the colder someone is to you, the more you, the more you need to market while you're selling to be able to get to the point of making the sale. Otherwise, otherwise, you're going to have to use a whole bunch of manipulative slimy stuff to get there. But yeah, yeah, so that's so, that's that's a.

Speaker 2: 9:34

That's a good one, right? Because we've talked about this a fair number, fair number of times around and we see it a lot with different, different clients that we work with. So this is the, the, the, the, the pillars of destiny, and all the stuff that we're talking about is that you've got an existing thing, right? So our, the listeners here, they're going to have an existing program, they're going to have an existing curriculum, they're going to have an existing product or body of work, and then there's going to be a whole bunch of symptoms that are causing them to think that something's not working. So that's cool, so that's our, that's our preface for the people that are consuming this and are going to get benefit from it. But when it comes to, when it comes to problem awareness, what's the scale Like? What are people usually dealing with?

Speaker 1: 10:14

You want to go through a full scale of awareness?

Speaker 2: 10:16

Yeah, but just like put it on, put it on a scale for me, because you've just said, you've just said that, yeah, depending on, depending on how aware people are of what you do or the thing that you solve or use you as a human they're going to. They're going to need more marketing, marketing content, less sales content initially. So what's that? Where does it start? It's completely oblivious all the way out to like you're my best friend in the whole world and I know everything about you. How?

Speaker 1: 10:42

big is this You're. You're Ryan that we talked about earlier, where Ryan was like stop sending your emails, I'm just going to buy it all on the scale of scale of wonder, ryan. She's really going to get a kick out of that when she hears this.

Speaker 2: 10:52

Love you, ryan, love you.

Speaker 1: 10:54

Big fan, big fan. So you've got. I say there's six stages of awareness. I don't know how anybody else would talk about this, so you've got.

Speaker 2: 11:01

We're asking you, we're asking you problem I like.

Speaker 1: 11:04

I like to distinguish when something is like I got this, I like to give credit where credit is due, of like this is a general principle versus this is just the way that I think about it. Interestingly, when it comes to almost anything, marketing at this point, like it's all, I've developed my own way of my own language around this. But so the six stages would be problem unaware problem aware solution unaware solution aware product unaware product aware.

Speaker 2: 11:28

Oh, interesting. So you had problem solution products.

Speaker 1: 11:32

Yeah, Solution product yeah.

Speaker 2: 11:35

That's really that's really cool.

Speaker 1: 11:37

Because until you're making a whole lot of money and you've got a whole bunch of, you've got a bunch of resources to burn resources being time, energy, money, people then like speaking to problem unaware people is you are literally just running yourself into a brick wall all day long. Because if someone is not aware of the problem and you are trying to tell them that they need your thing and that you can solve the problem, like they don't, it doesn't matter if they have the problem. It would be like saying I want to sell you this, I want to sell you insulin and it's going to cost you. It's a bloody fortune in the US to purchase insulin. Like I want to sell you insulin and the person says but I'm not diabetic, I don't have that problem. They're never going to buy it.

Speaker 2: 12:16

Yeah, good luck.

Speaker 1: 12:18

Good luck Until you can say no problem, aware, okay, here's your lab work. Here's your see, where it says in black and white you're diabetic, you're A1 senior, whatever. Then they realize, oh, I do have the problem, okay, so, oh gosh, I'm diabetic. This is obviously someone would know what to do with this hey, for example.

Speaker 1: 12:35

Oh, like, what do I? That's a bad thing I'm. You know what do I do with that? Well, there's this thing called insulin that will help you with that. They say, oh, I don't want it, like I'm opposed to taking medication, like I don't want to take medication if I don't have to. That's a real concern. So, okay, well, did you know that you could manage diabetes with? By the way, this is not my expert opinion, it's not financial advice.

Speaker 1: 12:56

It's not financial advice, not a medical professional. Did you know that you can manage that through diet and exercise and and it and? Oh, that's a solution I was not aware of. Literally, it's in the, it's in the terminology and you go. Okay, well, you, you can like, there are ways of there are ways of mitigating, and I've heard some people even go so far as to say that diabetes can be reversed through, like going through long stages of ketosis and all kinds of other states Fascinating. But that's not what we're here for. So, okay, there's a different solution. Okay, well then I, what is the thing Like? How do I actually do that? Hey, I have a course that will help you go. I have a group coaching program that will help you. It will help you understand how to do this. So now they went from product unaware to product aware. So the further they are down that line, the easier it's going to be to sell something to them. But it's marketing to them at each stage of that.

Speaker 2: 13:44

Yeah right, so it's less effort, it's less, it's, it's less effort. It sounds very taxing to go to problem unaware humans.

Speaker 1: 13:52

Literally running yourself into a brick wall. It's never going to happen.

Speaker 2: 13:55

I find a lot of. I find a lot of conversations that I have that's where people want to go, though, like that's the. Do you find that that's the default, like the default place that when someone says, oh, hey, I need to, I need to niche, I need to like solve people's problems. I'm going to go and solve a problem that people don't even know they have because the market, like maybe their perception is that the market is so much bigger. You know, you watch Shark Tank and they're like oh, you know the, the healthcare industry in America is like $4.2 trillion. And then, like Mark Cuban's, like dude, that's cute. Like Do they even know that they need this or have a problem? So then it's like yeah, it's, I think that's a really, I think that's a really interesting thing.

Speaker 2: 14:34

So can people, could people take what would be the easiest way for people to Recognize that they might be talking to the wrong people with their, with their marketing? So how would I know that I'm? My marketing efforts on, my sales efforts are being directed to the wrong audience. So I'm pitching to problem unaware. How would I know, like, what would be some of the symptoms that I'd experience?

Speaker 1: 14:56

if you're Problem unaware, you would probably find that you're just getting shut down all the time, like at that point you just don't know. You don't know your person yet. But if you find to take that a step further, where you're speaking to people who are maybe they're problem aware, but they're now this goes outside of awareness, like if they're if their solution Disinterested. This goes into what we have created. Is there, it's a, it's called the money market. Is the thing that that that we've developed for what we're doing? And Essentially it's like you've got, on one axis, you've got how well someone's doing, their belief that they can actually get the solution, and on the other axis, is their desire to actually be helped and specifically, their desire to be helped at a paid level, because there's some people who want help but they're never gonna pay for it and that's so. That's a different problem. So they both need to be willing to Accept help, paid, paid help. They're looking for that and they need to believe that they can do this. Otherwise, like you can have the best of intentions, you can want to help. This is the big-hearted people that are out there. They want to help and this person wants help. They're, they're willing to pay you, but they don't believe enough in Themselves or where they're at, and they're just not doing well enough to actually To actually achieve what it is, to believe that they can actually achieve what. What it is that you're offering is a transformation and you could sell that person. Now that those are convinced, you're having to convince those people. Yeah, if they don't, if they don't want to pay you for the thing, it's convincing. If they don't believe they can get the transformation, but they are willing to pay for something, you're still having to convince. And so you just wind up in this cycle of you know, either you're having to convince someone to put the money down for the thing, or you wind up going into your course or your coaching program or whatever you've got, and this applies outside. This can be one-on-one coaching. This can be anything where you are Conveying knowledge to another human.

Speaker 1: 16:52

Is you are going to have to be such a like you're gonna have to become their cheerleader, which is not really your job, depending on what you do. Like you could make that part of your job, like you can be a cheerleader all day for them, but like that's going to have that's gonna be your biggest obstacle. Is it every turn. You're gonna have to Remind them. You can do this, you can do this, you can do this, which most industries. That's not like. That's a battle. That's an uphill battle. It's just so much easier to speak to people who are Solution aware, who then you can make product aware, who want the transformation that you, that you, that you provide. They will pay for it and they believe that they can actually get the result that you help people get. I don't know if that actually answers your question. I don't remember what the question was.

Speaker 2: 17:34

It's okay. Good, it was about. Yeah, it was about how I'd recognize if I'm talking to these problem.

Speaker 1: 17:38

I'm aware the short answer was convincing. You're gonna be convincing them all the time.

Speaker 2: 17:42

Yeah, you're gonna be yeah, and you're gonna be teaching. You're gonna be teaching a lot. And so I think this is this is where one of the big Misconceptions of the use of educational marketing or educational content happens. Right Is that we will? We will then face in oh, I'm doing all of this. I'm doing all of this how-to content, I'm doing all of this education. Steven Adrian, you talk about how you need to give away the farm. You need to teach people what you know. You need to teach them how to fish, but it's not working. I'm not getting. There's a high chance that you're teaching these people who are potentially the wrong stage or not ready to Consume that. Because if you're, if you teach how-to content and use educational marketing with the right people at the right stage of the Process, it works a treat, and we know that yeah, and there's a, there's an, there's an asterisk on that also.

Speaker 1: 18:29

I'm glad you brought this up. Yet for sure, if your how-to content is speaking to Like creating problem awareness, so it would be like signs that, signs that you might actually have Insulin resistance, going back to the diabetic example, or, you know, if you're trying to educate someone that they have the problem again, it's an uphill battle all the way. But also what's working really well today is like even if you're speaking to someone who is Super aware that they have the problem and super aware that a solution exists that could help them, using a lot of How-to and value Content and educational content is not always going to move you across the finish line. It definitely is something that will establish trust. But also there's I think we've talked about this like there's education and then there's what I call diagnostic education.

Speaker 1: 19:18

What we call diagnostic education, through service driven scaling, is the concept of education is designed to help someone understand. Diagnostic education is designed to help someone feel understood. So when you use, when you can use both, like definite, give away the farm, teach people, teach people, teach, teach people how to fish. But also, if you're not helping them to feel heard, seen, understood and appreciated, then it's gonna be so much harder to get the sale. Because that's where the respect piece comes in, because everyone has how-to content these days and you can find it on YouTube, like, unless you can, number one, put your own spin on it, put your own authority, your own thought leadership, your own whatever you want to say Behind it, so that you're not just explaining this is how to do it.

Speaker 1: 20:01

But this is why I'm thinking about it the way that I am, so that it's not just regurgitated information from your mentors, mentors, mentor, or that you just pulled off of a YouTube video. If you can couple authority and thought leadership with Diagnostic education of helping someone to feel really understood, that's, that's your goal and you've got to learn at this point today. 2023 Probably will carry into next year at least. If you don't know how to do both, it's just, it's uphill battle amazing.

Speaker 2: 20:30

The being understood is probably the underrated game in this, in this area hugely, hugely understood.

Speaker 1: 20:37

I mean, you know, you it's, you want to know how to combat some things with around awareness. Like, if you go back to that diabetic example, if you could say to someone like you that's why we call this diagnostic education it's would literally be like going to someone and saying you know, I understand what you're, what you're going through and I have the solution for you. Like, I'm willing to bet that you know, every day around two or three o'clock in the afternoon, you get super sleepy that every time you eat X type of food like you feel like you need to take, like it's not that you Want to take a nap, it's that you just feel like you can't think anymore and that this thing has happened, this, and you basically Describe their life to them and they that they go. Oh, they listen, because, like they're, they've got and you know with what we do, I feel like now my brain's just my brain acts like a pinball machine sometimes and that's exactly what's happening to me, right now, I just strapped in.

Speaker 1: 21:30

You strapped in, hang on in, is you know, with what we do? We're teaching other people business, business skills, which there are a lot of. There are a lot of flags out there, there are a lot of wolves and sheeps clothing, this one and it's. We can't, just, we can't just go out there and say, hey, we're gonna help you make your your 10k month. Oh, hey, we're gonna help you make your first hundred thousand dollar month. Oh, hey, we can help you make.

Speaker 1: 22:02

When we talk about her a lot, she's not, she's doing it herself, she's just giving us no, if you don't know what we're talking about. Like we keep, we just keep going back to the well for this person's challenges and they just get more Ridiculous every time. But yeah, there's a lot of people out there and I'm pretty sure in this get like you were out there talking About seven figures in a day. I'm pretty sure this person's never seen seven figures in our life. Like there's a lot of people who are out there talking about things that they don't have any idea what they're talking about and People are super aware of that. And so if you are in a really saturated market and if you're doing any kind of business online, you're probably in a saturated market some way shape or form, and you don't have like there's something different about being able to sit in a room With someone and be in literally in their energy. In the same room as them, you get such a better sense of who someone is as a human. When you're in the room with them, the chemistry that exists is different than it does than it is on a screen, and so it just takes. It's not that it's harder, it just it's different. And when you are in a space like we are in, if all you're out there is saying you know, I can help you make money, I can help you grow your audience, I can help you. And you even got. You know, you listened to your coach and they said niche down. And they said come up with a, the usp. I think we were talking about that while the recording was on. You know what's what's really unique about what it is that you do? What's your unique value proposition? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like it goes way beyond that. If you don't know how to help someone feel really seen you you're, it's an uphill battle every time because when you can, when you can just clearly articulate to someone things that maybe They've never said to anyone else in their life, maybe they've not admitted it to their partner, they've not admitted it to whoever they're closest to their, their closest confidant, they've never said these things out loud but you're able to say like I understand what's going on in your head. That happens to me a lot with. You know I help people build teams and put sustainability behind their brand through system, systems, teams and structure and all that stuff is A lot of the stuff that I say. It makes it so much easier to sell. I don't want to think about it that way, but it makes it easier because it's stuff that no one's ever said to them.

Speaker 1: 24:13

Like you, you know, you literally feel the entire weight of your business on your shoulders. Like what would it feel? It's the relief. Like you literally feel like there's a weight pressing down on you and you spend so much of your time. You've got a team, but you find that you're just answering questions and Having to. You're like you're not truly delegating things because someone's coming back to say, like what color should this be, or what font should I use, or Whatever other nonsense thing that they need help with. Like you're just asking, you're answering questions all day long and these people go. I've never talked about this before and you're like explaining my life to me right now. It's really powerful. I just went on for so long.

Speaker 2: 24:53

Just smashed me in the face, like so that's, that's, that's, that's really, that's really important, I think right. So. So making sure that you Meet your clients where they're at, or your prospective clients where they're at, and then seek to understand what, like, what's going on for them, like that's that's, they're pretty broad, they're pretty broad statements. So can we, can we stitch in some little tactics for our amazing peeps around, what they can like, what they can do like. So maybe, maybe, do we want to cover off some of the additional symptoms that they would be experiencing that might mean that they're missing the understanding part, or do you want to go straight to some tactics to enhance their life?

Speaker 1: 25:38

I guess let's let's just talk about what they might be experiencing, because this will be relatively quick. There's not much explanation needed for this. So the big thing that everything that is our overarching like you will be experiencing this is if you are finding that your sales have slowed, plateaued, decreased, or like the way that you sell just does not feel good anymore. So that's that's like the macro level. But if you're what all this speaks to is, like your the marketing strategy is off or your messaging is off, if that is what your, if that's what's going on with you, then it's very likely that what you're experiencing is that your audience growth has started to slow down or it's plateaued, or you just know, and you might not have metrics for this a lot of this is very intuitive is like you just tapped your warm audience out, the people who have been there for a long time, like they're just not buying the way that they used to.

Speaker 1: 26:25

So that's usually when I talked to people about this. They just know yeah, my audience is tapped out when I asked that question and you're consistently hearing like I love being in your energy. Your energy is so amazing, you're so inspirational, you're so helpful, but those people are not, not converting in any way, shape or form, they're not converting to sales calls, and then they're not. They're definitely not buying, or it's taking the lead processes just extraordinarily longer than what you're used to, which is fine. We're happy to let people take all the time they need, but that it's a different, that you're experiencing different, different. You're experiencing a different behavior pattern from your audience than what you were before. Those would be the things that they'd be experiencing.

Speaker 2: 27:04

Those would be the things, yeah, I love the audience tap out, like that's like your audience is tapped out. And then I also I know a lot of people in my, in my world, that are like, yeah, your stuff so cool, steve, and I'm like it's so cool, freaking. Give me some coins and like or the pin number, your pin number or your credit card or something like that. No, like, no, but it's like, wow, like you've shown up to like to consume a lot of my stuff over the years, but where you know, you're just part of my, you're part of my world, you're not a client of mine and it's, yeah, it's definitely been something to to think about there, and maybe, maybe, I think that the people that are listening to this would have maybe that as something, as something that they're experiencing too. So what?

Speaker 1: 27:47

would be the solution.

Speaker 2: 27:49

Like how would you? How would you solve? That Is that sort of like you need to. You need to increase your audience so you dilute the like. You need to expand out the pool or you just need to go after people who aren't just like fans and a more they need, they need to. I need the solution to what I also well, there's a couple different things there.

Speaker 1: 28:07

So, number one if you've got the thing of like, there's a lot of people who are repeat. They're the repeat viewers. They're coming to all your stuff. They're saying, like, we love your stuff, it's so cool, like. My first question would be are you asking the direct question of like? You've been here a lot like.

Speaker 1: 28:21

Education in and of itself is not transformational. It can be if you know how to apply it, but like you clearly don't, or you wouldn't keep coming back. That's clear. Now someone can. If someone can, come to my free thing or my $20 thing or my $100 thing and they can take what I've told them and they can go apply it and get the success that they're looking for without me. I really hope that that's what they go do. They should not pay me at that point. I'm very happy for them to go do that on their own.

Speaker 1: 28:49

But if they're coming back again and again and again, that tells me that either they're just not taking action on the thing and they're just not doing it, which is a separate issue. That's, you're getting into procrastination, perfectionism cycles and it like, if you're the coach, if you're the expert, like you are doing them a disservice by not calling them on that, in my opinion, you know they're not paying you, so call them out like are you not actually implementing any of the stuff that we're learning? And if you, if you're not, go do it, stop coming to these things and just go, go do the thing that I'm teaching you to do. Or if you are implementing it, then clearly you need more help. And why don't we get on a call and talk about how I could actually help you?

Speaker 1: 29:25

And if you're not doing that, then but here's where I would throw this back to you Do you care about your learners as much as you say you do? That's right, that's you know, like at some point. It's not about getting money from people, it's either you just need to go do the work, go implement it. And if you are like I want to help you, and if it's not me, if I can't help you, I'm not going to take your money I'm not going to tell you that I can and take money, yeah, that's right, let me find someone yeah.

Speaker 1: 29:48

Right, I'm happy to refer you out. I've got so many people in my network that that, well, I don't have so many people in my network that I trust, but I have enough people that I could probably point you in the right, right direction and, like, why don't we just talk about this? So that's number one. If you're getting a lot of people who are coming back and back and back and back and back and they're not, they're not buying, it's time to call, just call like it, call like you see it, what's going on with you. But then your warm audience tapping out this is it's a natural progression of business, it's just going to happen. So I see it happen in the beginning, when you don't really have much going on in your business, like you're still figuring out what that looks like. So this could be relevant if your sales are slow or you're you're just going a lot and you're like I'm just making like $1,000 a month, forever, never, never. That's a plateau that could exist. That's not really the plateau we're talking about, because it's not established enough to to really know what's going on on the, on the back end, with your learners, which is more of the stuff that, like, we've come together to talk about, but it's going to happen really early on. It's going to happen again, probably when you are around the six figure mark. It's going to happen again probably when you're on the $300,000 mark. It's going to happen again when you're around the million dollar mark, like I can tell you when. These things are naturally going to happen because there's cycles that happen in your business. It's just the way that it goes. So I feel like I'm just talking and talking and talking. You can interrupt. So when you get to that point, like one of the worst things that you can do tell me if you've ever done this is go use your market. You're going to, you're going to die when I say this Go use your market data and your market research. It's one of the worst things that you could do. You're a face. It's one of the worst things that you could do. Or to go back into your like voice of customer data. It's not a good solution because you, as the expert, if you know as much as you say you do about what it is that you're what you're offering you should sort of know what's going on, like why, people, what the thing, the pillars that make up our diagnostic criteria. So what are the problems that they're having, what are the mistakes that they're making, what are the what are the actions they're taking to solve the problem and what are the beliefs that they have or beliefs or myths that they believe in? So you should already know what those things are and it's time for you to revisit them.

Speaker 1: 32:06

Like the quote and this I will say his name is Brandi Lucero. It's who I learned messaging from. I still learn from him, like he's a messaging magician. Credit where credit is due. He said this quote around like why marketing is, like why it's not useful for your messaging to constantly go back to the well of data and research is like the quote from Henry Ford, that is, if I would have listened to what people wanted, I would have made a faster horse. I'm that's not the exact quote, but it's like you have to be innovative enough, and innovation is not about is not about creating something new. It's about doing something better. So if you want to innovate, if you want to innovate within your own business, you've got to figure out, like what you, as the authority and as the expert, already should be, what you should already know about your people, and that's what you go back to.

Speaker 2: 32:55

It's super. There's so much overlap between between that statement around you're the expert, because it's the same in curriculum, right, if you're. If you're the expert, you set the, you set the criteria because people want to know how to get what you got or how to know what you know. So you set the, you set the progression, you set the rules, same with same with marketing. Because there's so many, there's so many programs that come out where it's like, oh, you need to. You know you need to go and do your, your niche work and you need to go and do your, you know your beta testing. You need to go and get all of this feedback and like insight from your customer, like market research is a subject at college, dude in your MBA. You know there's a time and a place for it. But yeah, when we're talking about the evolution and progression of you as a provider, as a service provider, as an expert, as a thought leader, yeah, you absolutely have to start going.

Speaker 2: 33:47

I'm going to pave my way a little bit here and go into the, into the unknown, and it's not the unknown either, because you know where you're going.

Speaker 1: 33:54

Well, that's. I think that goes back to. You know, there's there is. There is a misconception, and I think that people are doing.

Speaker 1: 34:00

This is one of the mistakes that that people if you are experiencing some of the things that we're talking about, one of the mistakes that someone is probably making is using the concept and this does definitely overlap with curriculum is give the people what they want and then, once they've purchased from you, give them what they need. So you're selling them what they want by giving them what they need. That's kind of manipulative. Yes, to some extent, you do have to have an understanding of there are things that people need that it would be convincing them that they need it and so, like that is the uphill battle. But also this concept of just like blanket, give them what they want because it's what your voice of customer data says, or whatever, like not helpful, not helpful at all. I mean, it can be. It can be if you want to manipulate the way that you're talking about your stuff, but ultimately, there's so much more depth in saying, okay, I hear that you, that you're saying A, that I really want this.

Speaker 1: 34:57

It's another thing to be able to explain. I know that you want this. This is what's going on with you. This is you're probably experiencing X, y and Z, and this is what like when you can go into the trenches with them around. I hear you. You want people to feel heard, seen, appreciated and understood is when you can help them experience that, like that's so much more powerful than just like cool. Here's the thing you want. Like that worked when the government was throwing around stimulus money and just like here, have your, here's your extra paycheck, get your extra unemployment money. Like that was working when people had money to burn. That's not today.

Speaker 2: 35:35

Not now and it's like that complete. That's the disconnect that gets created between outcomes outcome, right. So if you're promising once at the start, that gets the money and then you deliver something else because you think they need that instead, or they, or I think it could, you can also. There's also the light side of the force of that, which is not manipulative at all. It's where you're promising. You're promising or you're once at the front and your marketing and sales are this, and then, in the actual delivery of the content or the fulfillment, you recognize that you need to backfill some concepts or you need to add a bit of extra stuff in, or there's a prequel piece of knowledge. Now, if you do that without telling them or managing their expectations before they come into the program disconnect straight away.

Speaker 2: 36:16

I can see the future. You'll have all the signs and symptoms that we talked about in the curriculum episode. That would lead to people not really buying, people not getting the next thing, not having raving fans, not completing your programs. So yeah, I think that's really really interesting is and it takes. What does it take? It takes confidence and knowing that you're the expert, and this is again one of the challenges in the cereal box coach and cookie cutter coach industry, where it's not you listeners. And if one of you cereal box like no credibility, no experience, no skill, did a day long course and now you're an expert.

Speaker 1: 36:53

If you're listening to this like this might be a wake up call, but yeah For me you have a sellable skill, but maybe it's not what you're thinking about right now. Sure absolutely.

Speaker 2: 37:03

But I think that's the challenge is that you do have the expertise and you have to stand on your expertise and say, hey, listen, like what you said there was really, really powerful. Where it's like look, I know that you think you want this, but you don't like that's what you're saying. Like you're saying it, but you can't say it. Like that, you say I know you think you want this, but you don't need this. You need this. That's not right. You're not showing them that you understand. You're just showing them that you're an expert jerk, right, right. Instead, when you create that and structure that in a particular way, that's gonna lead to the real understanding piece and that's gonna build the magical R respect that people are gonna go oh, wow, I've seen so many and this might be the feedback that you hear Well, I've heard so many people say that they can solve this problem that I have.

Speaker 2: 37:50

They're like agreeing with me. They're saying, yes, I can, yes, I can, yes, I can. You're the first one who's actually helped me accountable, to help me understand why I might not necessarily want this thing in the first place. Thank you, Whoa, whoa, hang on a minute. That's so now you're like you're saying you're zigging. While others are zagging, you're the contrarian. And Bibi Bibi, bibi Boo. You have some pretty cool people who feel really heard and understood.

Speaker 1: 38:17

And it's gonna. It's going to weed out the people who aren't your people anyway.

Speaker 1: 38:22

That's gonna be the other nice thing that you know, like this happened to me this week when we were catching up, before we started recording this. I told you about like I ran that training and I had someone tell me at the end of it, like I go to a lot of these kinds of things and I think it was a general like business, like I go to a lot of business type trainings but I also got the impression that there was a lot. This particular one was around hiring and team and this person said to me, like I have never experienced someone speak about building a team through, like directly through the lens of this is human centric. We were putting people first and we're building a culture of like prioritizing that we wanna work with good humans and we care about you as a person. And you know there were a lot of other light bulb moments along the way around.

Speaker 1: 39:04

You know things that they're just my way of thinking about hiring that are very different than hiring in a corporate environment. But by the end of it, it was like light bulb moment, light bulb moment, light bulb moment. But then setting a part around like do we have the same value structure and that like that comes into, when someone's like whoa, have a lot of respect for that, because I've never heard someone. It's like all the same regurgitated thing over and, over and over again and you've really got something to say and that's either gonna resonate with them or it's not, and we wanna figure that out, preferably sooner rather than later. And now it's time for another. Get to know Steve and Adrian.

Speaker 2: 39:39

This is my question, like what is the coolest? What is the coolest Halloween outfit slash gambit that you have fulfilled? Because if you were any sort of the thespian that I think you are, you would go all in on your Halloween characters.

Speaker 1: 39:56

You know, it's because I'm not the Halloween person that a lot of people are that not really. I have some like really easy to throw together Halloween costumes Like my go-to would be Daphne from Scooby-Doo.

Speaker 2: 40:11

Daphne is yeah, amazing.

Speaker 1: 40:13

Or, but I went as Merida once. That was fun. I should find pictures, but I don't think I've ever really gone. Once with my students I did a Halloween bowling party. That was fun. Okay, there you go. I went as a flapper. That was fun. I don't know that I've ever done like a big gone all out on a Halloween costume.

Speaker 2: 40:30

You've gone all out. Oh, that's surprising. That surprises me.

Speaker 1: 40:33

That's part of it is like to do it really well. I don't know you've gotta have like it would be really expensive unless you have the pieces to do it. I sang in this Christmas thing once. It was like a Christmas, it was a Christmas pageant, but it wasn't a pageant, it was like what they use would have referred to a pageant a long time ago. So it was like I sang in a four part acapella thing and what I had to wear for that would have been so cool to have had for Halloween. Like it was full, like it was a full medieval corset with the big floofy drapes. It was so fun to put on like a big yeah, and you've never, have you ever participated in Halloween? Not ever. I just it's not ours. If you had to dress up as Halloween, if you had to dress up as Halloween for Halloween, what would you go as?

Speaker 2: 41:26

I would dress up as the invisible man and not go.

Speaker 1: 41:29

That's such a lame. No, that's lame, not into it.

Speaker 2: 41:33

Okay, well, I mean Batman would just be who I'd have to dress up as.

Speaker 1: 41:38

That's an actual costume. All right, let's get back to it.

Speaker 2: 41:42

But it's also just backing, like, it's just backing yourself, right, too much, yeah, too much time is spent going oh, we have to. You know and this is a bit more direct and probably not recommended that you do this, but it's like, yeah, too many times. It's like, oh, we have to, yeah, we have to go and, like, recreate the wheel and give it to each client individually, like exactly where they're at and like you know, yes, address all their wants and their desires and make them fall in love with us that way. No, you make people, like you can make people fall in love with you in terms of, from a respect perspective, by actually giving them what they need.

Speaker 1: 42:19

Exactly this is. You don't watch Game of Thrones, right? I do not. This is where there's it's toward the it's toward the end. It's where Danny Tyrion says to Danny like lots of people have tried to come in, and I think he said, recreate the wheel. And she's like I'm not going to recreate the wheel, I'm going to break the wheel.

Speaker 1: 42:38

Very dramatic moment, and that's like you don't watch Game of Thrones, you're not going to get my reference. Okay, sorry, that's. That is sort of how I'm. If you, if you know, if you know Game of Thrones, which the majority of humans on this planet do I am not an advocate for Daenerys Targaryen's tactics there toward the end, but let's, let's what I'm here to do. I'm here to let's break the wheel. I don't want to do with them.

Speaker 1: 43:00

Look at all the nasty stuff that exists in marketing right now, especially if you're marketing online, like. It's the, the click funnels, nonsense and the like. It's course the education space. You have articulated this really well. It is being led by marketers and it's not, it's not helpful. So it's these people who are teaching you to sell knowledge rooted in a place of like just let's make all the sales that we can make, and that's not helpful. Let's help people feel understood just through marketing, so that they don't feel like, wow, I have to buy this or my whole world is going to come crashing to an end, and so, in that sense, yes, I would like to break the wheel. Yeah, good.

Speaker 2: 43:35

And I think, I think that the piece about the piece about quality of people that you, that you work with, like you, you taking the, you taking the expert road and explaining to people, well, yeah, while you may want this, like, let me tell you, as the person who has achieved what you think you like, what you think you want, like the way to get there is not actually to get this, it's actually this, this isn't this. Let me show you how this works. Let me like talk to you about this. Like, think about the quality of candidate or quality of prospect that's coming through your ecosystem.

Speaker 2: 44:08

You're no longer, you're basically going to remove those frustrating times where you are banging your head against the wall, going why, why won't you like listen or understand what's going on? Like, why don't you get this? Like? You will have like an army of people who are just like whoa, we get this, we're on, we're hitching out, we're hitching our cars to your, to your wagon, we're off into the sunset, let's ride. So that's that's really exciting as well, because qualified prospects is a is a hard thing to achieve in the marketing game right now. There's a lot of people that are promising. Like you know, I can get you qualified leads or appointments, or you know people booked into your course, or you don't pay, like all these ridiculous offers, but ultimately like it's all going to fall over if the people that come into your world are just not suitable right.

Speaker 1: 44:51

But also really buck back against that statement of like, oh, I can get you all these qualified leads. Because think about, okay, so there's a difference between an ideal lead and there's a difference and a qualified lead, right, like this is literally I'm building my marketing membership, it's literally in my marketing, one on one section, and a qualified candidate is our people really, as is a lead gen person, really going to be able to bring you a whole handful of qualified leads? Because look at what that actually means. Like, someone who's qualified is someone who should be ready to make a purchase at your first point. That's a qualification, that's the, that's the qualified part of that process. And then it's your job to qualify them on the back end, to make sure that they're actually suitable for what you offer.

Speaker 1: 45:35

But, like, essentially what people are bringing you is oh, you work with coaches. I'll just bring you a whole bunch of people that are not qualified. Well, they're not, they're not necessarily qualified it just they look like well, they could be because they're yeah, they're, they're a coach, they look like they're doing well, okay, it goes back to do they actually have the desire to be helped? And do they have the desire to be helped or do they just want free help?

Speaker 2: 45:59

Yeah, yeah, and all those, all those things are okay, but for you as the, as the operator, you would rather be able to be playing all out, 110%, with peeps who are, you know, and Kool-Aid the wrong word, but it's like, it's like the good version of Kool-Aid, right, they're, they're like, they're like super, super fan fans of yours. They feel a herd understood, they're taking action, they're doing all the things like and then what that does for you. I know, when I've worked with people who are right in that pocket of personality time, like they've just bought in and they're in and they're doing it and they trust and they respect. It's such a fun place to, to, to work and give service to, as opposed to. I gotta run another webinar and Mavis is going to be there. She's going to. She's going to be there because she's been there for the last six of them and she probably is going to ask me these questions. She still hasn't done anything. You know, mavis that Mavis she's a crafty devil.

Speaker 1: 46:58

Well, but then you also. It's also your job then, to go to Mavis and be like what's going on Going?

Speaker 2: 47:01

on Mavis, let's have a chat, let's have a little chat yeah.

Speaker 2: 47:06

Dude. So it's. It's one of these things where we're like, we're really sort of nailing a lot of the, a lot of the symptoms, a lot of the things that people are doing and people are probably thinking but hang on a sec, like you guys talk about education, you talk about like doing, doing the how to content, you talk about talking with your audience and all that sort of stuff, but yes, yes, yes is the answer, but it all fundamentally still boils down to this, this concept of do you really understand, or does your prospect feel like you understand? Understand them? So one of the one of the last ones that I probably want to unpack before we finish this one up is around the concept of like illustrating or like marketing through transformation and social proof.

Speaker 2: 47:51

So a lot of people do that, right, like, this is this, this is the transformation you can get. Here's someone who's done it. Now, the pitchforks are coming out, dude, I can feel them. They're like whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Are you saying that that's wrong? No, we're not saying it's wrong. We're just saying that the way that it's, the way that it ties into everything that you're doing, could be enhanced in order to fix some of the symptoms that you're seeing, which we talked about at the at the higher level. So tell us a little bit about the transformation slash, you know? Social proof.

Speaker 1: 48:21

You know, the transformation piece is tricky, because here's where I agree with the people around. I don't like pain point marketing and that's where, well, okay, if we're not going to pain point, if we're not, if we're not going to market pain points, then we're going to market to transformation. That makes that makes some logical sense and that's what a lot of people are teaching. If it's we're not marketing to pain points, we're going to market to the transformation that's possible. We're going to show people the possibility. The problem with that is that they don't believe the possibility anymore because there are so many people who have gotten burned. So you know, they've seen, and this goes hand in hand. It's not exactly the same thing and I'll make the differentiation between between the two, but they work similarly in that, like, we're going to show a lot of screenshots of look at all these client wins, look at the testimony I've got all these testimonials. Look at my website, see all these things that are here Now I can think of a dozen people off the top of my head who have been. I'll use business coaches, for example. I can think of a half dozen business, a dozen business coaches off the top of my head. So if you go to their, their big program, that when you go and look through your testimonials, I know that they're all three, four, five years old. They're not updated. They don't need to be, because they're phenomenal testimonials. And now if you've got a big enough name to sustain that, then that's one thing. But if you, if you aren't, if you don't have that built into your business already, you got to, you got a problem because people realize they, first of all, they're probably savvy enough to know what I know is that they're old, they're old testimonials and they're savvy enough to know that, like it's only a tiny percentage of the people and the solution to that is not okay. Well, I'm going to put a testimonial from 99% of my people and just bury you in testimonials. They're not updated either. So testimonials and then like sharing the transformation, and this, you know, comes down to like, it comes down to future pacing, imagine where you could be, imagine where you could be, which is sounds really empowering. It's aspirational, it's inspirational, but it's not selling the way that it used to.

Speaker 1: 50:30

There are a lot of people who are making false promises. Maybe they don't realize they're false, but they're making promises and they don't know how to properly live up to it. And that's where you come into play, because we've talked about this that, like marketing and curriculum go really hand in hand. Where sales and events go, that like they're really when we talk to them, they really are rings, they all interlock in some place. Marketing curriculum like if you don't know how to, you don't know how to deliver on the marketing promises. But also you need to market to what the you know. They like the egg thing, so they really go ahead. They people are savvy to the fact that, like you're not getting necessarily what someone has promised.

Speaker 1: 51:09

So how do we combat that? It's not to double down on like let me show you more testimonials, more like let me just keep going deeper on like I'm go back to the voice of data stuff and the market research stuff and the. That is not. We're not going back to the well, because consistency is going to get you where you want to be and this is always this work before. So at some point it's going to work again. I mean, maybe it will.

Speaker 1: 51:30

The idea is you really want to be able to come back to not marketing the pain points but be able to articulate the problems in a way that they go. I feel really seen by this. That's establishing respect, because we've talked about you know there's no like trust. Then the step beyond that is because people, they can know you, they can like you, but they're naturally going to distrust you. You're being inherently distrusting of you. You combat that through respect. If you can tell them what's going on with them through it's not painful. This is not. This is not like if you were a health coach. This is not like.

Speaker 1: 52:03

You know that you're at least 100 pounds overweight and you've got so much to let you know that at some point it's going to, it's going to affect your blood sugar and you know that at some point that it's going to cause cholesterol problems and this problem that, like, we're not marketing to pain points it's being able to articulate.

Speaker 1: 52:18

You know that you have this problem and you understand that these other things are starting to happen to you, that you're 100, 100 pounds or more overweight and you're in your 30s and you're starting to see where, like you know, it's harder for you to get up from your chair than it used to be, where one flight of stairs might not have winded you before, like now it's starting to have, when you can actually tell like this is what's happening. You don't want to admit it, you're not really talking about that is really powerful. That's a really on the surface example. But you know like that's the difference between we're not, we're not going to pain point, but we're also not relying strictly on future pacing and an aspirational stuff, because People are too distrusting of it. If you're not in a super saturated market, then cool, let's talk about, let's talk about how we can really dive into transforming transformational marketing. But then, do you know, I feel like I could just keep going and going, and going.

Speaker 2: 53:11

You know there's, I think, this. What this shows is it shows that, yeah, where, where we're at, it's really cool. It's really cool when, when we, when we play in our own little little spaces, right, so like curriculum, curriculum is my jam when I've got little overlaps which allow me to sort of like hang on to the back of the boat as you like, off you go, it's like.

Speaker 2: 53:36

I think that's the. I think you know real. Simply put, if Someone's out there trying to say that they can do both marketing and curriculum in one program, one product, and it's one person, run for the hills, because there's no possible way that you can have the depth and breadth of knowledge In each of these sections as one human. It's like Usain Bolt winning the hundred meter sprint on the track and then running the and then swimming the hundred meter freestyle, setting a world record. It's just not, it's not possible, because the skill sets are so, are so varied, but then the overlap is so beautiful, like seeing that is is really really, is really really powerful. So, and again, it's really cool hearing it because it's just reinforcing that where we're coming at with service driven scaling and the Pillars of destiny, the rings of the rings of power can't do that. That's taken by the lord of the rings. They won't. Sorry, peter jackson, we were not, we're not coming after you.

Speaker 2: 54:29

Jr Tolkien, it's okay, it's okay. The pillars of destiny, like that works and it really I think the depth in there in our programming and in the content that we're giving out here to our, you know, amazing, amazing humans that are consuming it, but even inside the tent, like what's going to go on there is going to be Absolutely out of this world game changing, because we're going to be able to have the time to do the, do the, do the depth, do the breadth, do the like going into the rabbit hole with your parachute on and your headlight and like and if you can't tell, we do like going down the rabbit hole with this stuff.

Speaker 2: 55:04

Oh yeah, here's rabbit hole city. Maybe we should have a whole section of the program inside service driven scaling, just called rabbit holes, and so it's for people, because I really like you, I really like your comment you made. You made. You made a lot of good comments, but there was one that was really good educate, like there's a lot of people that just consume education and think that they're getting better.

Speaker 1: 55:24

Is that education itself is not transformational?

Speaker 2: 55:26

Yeah, exactly right education itself is not transformation. That is so powerful because Sometimes and this is again coming back to the whole point of this is that less is less is always more in this world, because you're being conditioned to believe that you need to give away the farm. You could give away a piece of the farm and that would be the thing that, like helps someone transform, but don't give them the next piece. Don't give them the next piece until you know that they've been able to use it, as opposed to just become a factory of Knowledge facts, like. You'll be great at trivia nights, but you're gonna suck at like realizing the outcomes for your people or for your clients or for whatever you're you're doing.

Speaker 1: 56:06

You're hearing it from steve himself, who says give away the farm, don't give. Don't give all of it away. And it's not about not giving it all away. We will give all of it away, but it's. It's not helpful to someone to get too much information at once because they don't know where to go. They don't know where to go at that point.

Speaker 2: 56:23

Yeah, and the motivation around the farm giving right has always been because the bros and the brother brunson brigade have always sort of said that they're gonna give, they're always going to give you the three things. But then you go to the perfect webinar and you realize that the three things are just three dot points and there's no substance under them. So, in order to combat that, you have to be seen. In order to build trust and then subsequently respect, you have to be seen to just not hold anything back, and that's the key, right. But that's a fine balance, because as soon as you go too far, you're gonna start to overwhelm instead of transform. You're gonna rob people of their ability to consume or apply the knowledge. So it is, it is an absolute fine balance.

Speaker 2: 57:05

But, yeah, you're definitely just operating in that world where, yeah, I've got nothing to hide, right, I'm gonna show in my webinar, I'm actually gonna show you how to do it yourself. That may be this piece of the farm, that may be this little paddock, or it might be a little flower bed that exists on the property somewhere, but either way, they've got the ability to go and apply it themselves Should they want to. That's the, that's the power man. Oh.